New study: When civilians would shoot.........

[sgtmac_46]

.....and when they think Police Officers should.

Fascinating experiments by 2 California researchers show that young civilians who might someday be on an OIS jury overwhelmingly disagree with veteran officers about when police are justified in shooting armed, threatening perpetrators.

Interestingly, tests also reveal that when facing shoot/don’t shoot decisions of their own, civilians tend to be quick on the trigger—and often wrong in their perceptions. Even in ideal lighting conditions, civilian test subjects show “a very low capacity for distinguishing” a handgun from an innocuous object, such as a power tool. Forced to make a time-pressured decision, the vast majority would shoot a “suspect” who is, in fact, unarmed.

“On one hand,” says Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato, “this research should make civilians more sympathetic to officers who mistakenly shoot unarmed subjects under high-stress, real-world conditions.

“But on the other hand, the study shows the woeful lack of understanding most non-cops have about the larger legality and appropriateness of using deadly force. And this can result in serious ramifications in the courtroom.” http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2009/03/force-science-news-117-new-study-when-civilians-would-shoot%E2%80%A6and-when-they-think-you-should/

[mgifford]

In the 60's in my city, there were a lot of robberies convenience stores. Cops were doing stakeouts and shooting a whole lot of the robbers. The Civil Rights folks got involved and wanted an investigation. The FBI interviewed many officers and concluded that the officers had no idea how many times they fired. One or Ten!

[sgtmac_46]

In the 60's in my city, there were a lot of robberies convenience stores. Cops were doing stakeouts and shooting a whole lot of the robbers. The Civil Rights folks got involved and wanted an investigation. The FBI interviewed many officers and concluded that the officers had no idea how many times they fired. One or Ten!
Critical incident amnesia........under extreme stress the mid-brain takes over, and you default to your highest level of mastered training.......but you lose the ability to keep track of some of the details.

If you've trained properly, you'll do it right.....even if you won't remember the details of doing it right.

A prime example for someone who has never been in a shooting, is a car accident.......you may be able to count the glass falling, but you'll SWEAR you don't remember yelling ****! ****! ****! at the top of your lungs!

[mgifford]

Critical incident amnesia........under extreme stress the mid-brain takes over, and you default to your highest level of mastered training.......but you lose the ability to keep track of some of the details.

If you've trained properly, you'll do it right.....even if you won't remember the details of doing it right.

A prime example for someone who has never been in a shooting, is a car accident.......you may be able to count the glass falling, but you'll SWEAR you don't remember yelling ****! ****! ****! at the top of your lungs!

Back in the 60's this was. Training wasn't very good then.

[sgtmac_46]

Back in the 60's this was. Training wasn't very good then. That's why 1973 was the worst year in US history for law enforcement murders.......the 1970's in general had several of the worst years.

[mgifford]

That's why 1973 was the worst year in US history for law enforcement murders.......the 1970's in general had several of the worst years.

When I started in 1977, you could work for up to one year, before being forced to go to the "Academy". I went after several months.

[Samm]

Critical incident amnesia........under extreme stress the mid-brain takes over, and you default to your highest level of mastered training.......but you lose the ability to keep track of some of the details.
If you've trained properly, you'll do it right.....even if you won't remember the details of doing it right.

A prime example for someone who has never been in a shooting, is a car accident.......you may be able to count the glass falling, but you'll SWEAR you don't remember yelling ****! ****! ****! at the top of your lungs!

Yes. A very good friend of mine was a twin-50 gunner on a PBR in Vietnam. He said in one fire fight he was in he fired eight full boxes of 50 cal, but had no recollection at all of changing them out during the skirmish.

[jimjames418]

I would say that every jury member who is deciding a case of illegal use of deadly force be required to go though the live firing range on a police training course. Where they are shown suprise targets and have .2 seconds to make a decision.

It that happened I would wager that there would not be many cases decided in favor of the perp. :flag:

[Paul31]

When I started in 1977, you could work for up to one year, before being forced to go to the "Academy". I went after several months.
That is how most departments were in my state. Not sure if that is standard practice anymore.

[birddog1]

Yes. A very good friend of mine was a twin-50 gunner on a PBR in Vietnam. He said in one fire fight he was in he fired eight full boxes of 50 cal, but had no recollection at all of changing them out during the skirmish.

I have a hard time telling how many rounds I have fired out of a mag when I am target shooting, I would surely have no idea of how many I fired if someone was shooting back at me.

[signcut]

.....and when they think Police Officers should.

I remember a shooting a few years back in San Diego, and there were plenty of people writing in to the paper's editorial page, arguing that the cops 'should have' just shot the gun out of the guy's hand...


otherwise they obviously weren't very good with their weapons.



:rolleyes:












too many people are idiots

[Cav Scout]

I have a hard time telling how many rounds I have fired out of a mag when I am target shooting, I would surely have no idea of how many I fired if someone was shooting back at me.


Training.

[birddog1]

Training.

Yeah, my friend said it wasn't hard if you had some hard PT at stake.

[Cav Scout]

I remember a shooting a few years back in San Diego, and there were plenty of people writing in to the paper's editorial page, arguing that the cops 'should have' just shot the gun out of the guy's hand...


otherwise they obviously weren't very good with their weapons.



:rolleyes:












too many people are idiots

But its so easy on Wii...

:mrgreen:

[birddog1]

But its so easy on Wii...

:mrgreen:

Saw it once on a reality cop show. Everything just happened to fall into place and a sniper shot the guys gun out of his hand as he dangled it between his legs as he was sitting in a lawn chair threatening to shoot himself. The look on his face was priceless when the gun came apart in his hand and a large cop then tackled him and broke his lawn chair.

[Cav Scout]

Saw it once on a reality cop show. Everything just happened to fall into place and a sniper shot the guys gun out of his hand as he dangled it between his legs as he was sitting in a lawn chair threatening to shoot himself. The look on his face was priceless when the gun came apart in his hand and a large cop then tackled him and broke his lawn chair.

Anything is easy when its not shooting back at you.