Spokane Soap Smugglers: Phosphate Rebellion

[gdoane]

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2009/03/27/20090327ODDbootleg-detergent0327-ON.html

Residents of Spokane have lived in a town where it's illegal to sell dishwasher detergent with more than 0.5% phosphates.

So, they go buy it in Idaho instead. The problem is the Greenies want to keep phosphates out of the water because of algae, but the residents want their dishes clean and the low-phosphate detergents simply don't work.

It's not illegal to possess or use the smuggled detergent, only illegal to sell it so while some retailers lose customers out of state retailers gain business from the affected area.

Another clear case of the law of unintended consequences.

[Oddball]

Gee...You'd think that the soap was...like....cocaine, or something. :think:

[ipaymyway]

I can hear it now:

Dectctive says to perp: "This will be a lot easier on all of us.....if you just "come clean" and tell us everything"

[gdoane]

I can hear it now:

Dectctive says to perp: "This will be a lot easier on all of us.....if you just "come clean" and tell us everything"

Now the cops have to deal with all the soap scum.

Greenies out to save us all,
went and banned Electrosol.
Now instead of clean and pretty,
Spokane dishes come out dirty.
Fed up with the greenie dopes,
We head outstate to get our soaps.

[sgdp]

You know..when I heard the teaser on Fox Report, I thought they were smuggling it to make meth.

o.O

[jimjames418]

It's not illegal to possess or use the smuggled detergent, only illegal to sell it so while some retailers lose customers out of state retailers gain business from the affected area.

Another clear case of the law of unintended consequences.
Hey, I live in Michigan and it is illegal in this state to own or use. Has been since 1971.

HISTORICAL PERSPECITVE OF THE PHOSPHATE DETERGENT CONFLICT (http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/full_text_search/AllCRCDocs/94-54.htm)
By 1971 municipalities in several states (Connecticut, Florida, Indiana, Maine, Michigan and New York) had enacted laws limiting detergent phosphorus ...

[gdoane]

Hey, I live in Michigan and it is illegal in this state to own or use. Has been since 1971.

HISTORICAL PERSPECITVE OF THE PHOSPHATE DETERGENT CONFLICT (http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/full_text_search/AllCRCDocs/94-54.htm)
[quote]By 1971 municipalities in several states (Connecticut, Florida, Indiana, Maine, Michigan and New York) had enacted laws limiting detergent phosphorus ...That's talking about laundry detergent, not dishwasher soap.

[TheFallGuy]

What else can you expect from filthy hippies?

They want to lower everyone else to the grime they live in.

[CaptainPike]

I enjoy using Cascade Complete. It works great.

[angelicmadrigal]

I don't know, you could just wash your dishes by hand and not have to worry about it.

Though you would think the waste water facilities could filter out phosphates if the problem is it's getting into river, stream, lake water.

[gdoane]

What else can you expect from filthy hippies?

They want to lower everyone else to the grime they live in.

It seems in Spokane they're choosing a life of crime over a life of grime.

I looked at the election results to see if Spokane County is a bunch of bleeding heart liberal types and they're really not all that blue.

In 2004, Spokane County voted for Bush over Kerry 111,606 to 87,490 but in 2008 they voted Obama over McCain 69,571 to 66,020. So in 2004 they had 199,096 voters and in 2008 135,591 voters showed up to the polls. That's a loss of 63,505 voters who apparently didn't care for either Obama or McCain.

[ipaymyway]

Angel said:

I don't know, you could just wash your dishes by hand and not have to worry about it.



Wait a minute.......washing dishes by hand uses more water (Usually) ....and we have to "Slow the flow...save H2O"

Not to mention it will somehow further endanger the beloved "Striped Wing Gnat" :rolleyes:

[angelicmadrigal]

Angel said:


Wait a minute.......washing dishes by hand uses more water (Usually) ....and we have to "Slow the flow...save H2O"

Not to mention it will somehow further endanger the beloved "Striped Wing Gnat" :rolleyes:

In all likelihood when I do dishes I probably use LESS water than a dishwasher.

[gdoane]

I don't know, you could just wash your dishes by hand and not have to worry about it.

Though you would think the waste water facilities could filter out phosphates if the problem is it's getting into river, stream, lake water.

I don't think washing dishes by hand is better for the environment and here's the reason why:

I do my dishes by hand because it would take me two weeks to fill up a dishwasher for one load. I live alone and out of the 21 meals I eat a week, about half are at restaurants and most of the dinners I have are microwave TV dinners in disposable plastic trays so half the dishes I use go out with the trash.

Plastic dishes in the landfill aren't much of an improvement over phosphates in the water.

The reason it's so difficult to get phosphate out of the water once it's in there is phosphate loves to bind with two kinds of atoms, hydrogen and oxygen atoms which are found in abundance in H2O. It would take quite a crowbar to get those molecules apart because they bind like they were made for one another. The same thing that makes phosphate work so well with water in cleaning is what makes it such a task to get them back apart again.

[johnrocks]

Gee...You'd think that the soap was...like....cocaine, or something. :think:

:silenced:

[angelicmadrigal]

I don't think washing dishes by hand is better for the environment and here's the reason why:


I dont' use plastic dishes most of the time. So that isn't an issue for me.

[gdoane]

I dont' use plastic dishes most of the time. So that isn't an issue for me.

While it's true that most households in the USA are single (50.3% according to the U.S. Census 2005 American Community Survey) packaging for single servings is still primarily plastic and convenience driven. Many packaged dinners don't even recommend any cooking outside of the microwave.

However, almost all plastic dishes in these TV dinners have a warning to not reuse them so in the trash to the landfill they go.

What's really bad is if I use a plastic fork, I just toss it too and then I don't have to do dishes at all.

The problem I see with outlawing phosphates in dishwasher detergent is that if people don't use washable dishes because they don't like washing dishes by hand and the phosphate-free stuff doesn't work, there is a worse alternative.

Plastic has many downsides. It's a petroleum product for starters, it increases our dependency on foreign oil (plastic bags, bottles and containers account for over 200 Million barrels of oil used in the USA per year), it's not very biodegradable and recycling is labor intensive making it less cost effective than just making more plastic.

If people can't use a dishwasher and don't want to wash a lot of dishes by hand, the obvious alternative is plastic (and paper) disposable dishes and the problem just gets dumped from one part of the environment to another part of the environment.

[TheFallGuy]

It seems in Spokane they're choosing a life of crime over a life of grime.

I looked at the election results to see if Spokane County is a bunch of bleeding heart liberal types and they're really not all that blue.

In 2004, Spokane County voted for Bush over Kerry 111,606 to 87,490 but in 2008 they voted Obama over McCain 69,571 to 66,020. So in 2004 they had 199,096 voters and in 2008 135,591 voters showed up to the polls. That's a loss of 63,505 voters who apparently didn't care for either Obama or McCain.

That's what you get when you put two of the same up for election. You're in a catch 22 no matter what you do. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. McCain was a mistake to put on the ticket, but not as big a mistake as putting Obama in the White House.

[LouC]

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2009/03/27/20090327ODDbootleg-detergent0327-ON.html

Residents of Spokane have lived in a town where it's illegal to sell dishwasher detergent with more than 0.5% phosphates.

So, they go buy it in Idaho instead. The problem is the Greenies want to keep phosphates out of the water because of algae, but the residents want their dishes clean and the low-phosphate detergents simply don't work.

It's not illegal to possess or use the smuggled detergent, only illegal to sell it so while some retailers lose customers out of state retailers gain business from the affected area.

Another clear case of the law of unintended consequences.

I read this this morning and my first thought was buying up all the Cascade Dishwasher Soap I could afford and just sitting on it till the black market comes to Illinois once our idiot legislature and governor goes down this road.

[meggers49]

Hey, I live in Michigan and it is illegal in this state to own or use. Has been since 1971.

HISTORICAL PERSPECITVE OF THE PHOSPHATE DETERGENT CONFLICT (http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/full_text_search/AllCRCDocs/94-54.htm)
By 1971 municipalities in several states (Connecticut, Florida, Indiana, Maine, Michigan and New York) had enacted laws limiting detergent phosphorus ...

as far as i know, that's laundry detergent, not dish detergent

[meggers49]

I read this this morning and my first thought was buying up all the Cascade Dishwasher Soap I could afford and just sitting on it till the black market comes to Illinois once our idiot legislature and governor goes down this road.

similar plan here


i'm going to buy it just so i have the stuff, and using a dishwasher DOES use less water than washing by hand if you have a family and your dishes are more sanitized (or they were before guck was left on due to lesser soaps).

[Samm]

I think I may set up a soap stand near the Post Falls interchange on I-90. ;)

[gdoane]

I think I may set up a soap stand near the Post Falls interchange on I-90. ;)

I think I'd just be buying the stuff off of Amazon and let the soap come to me instead of running around doing interstate trips for dishes.

[RTchoke]

I think I'd just be buying the stuff off of Amazon and let the soap come to me instead of running around doing interstate trips for dishes.

What happens if they put a little note on the bottom of the order page like you see for other banned items in certain states?

"This item cannot be shipped to WA, MN, MI etc."

I need to start loading the trunk with Cascade when I head up to see the sis. Make a little profit along the way. :D

[gdoane]

What happens if they put a little note on the bottom of the order page like you see for other banned items in certain states?

"This item cannot be shipped to WA, MN, MI etc."

I need to start loading the trunk with Cascade when I head up to see the sis. Make a little profit along the way. :D


I checked first. They say they'll ship Cascade to the 48 contiguous States. I'd let UPS be the mule.

I dunno that I'd want to be seen selling a white powdered substance out of a trunk in Washington. The cops might not think it's Cascade.

[jimjames418]

What happens if they put a little note on the bottom of the order page like you see for other banned items in certain states?

"This item cannot be shipped to WA, MN, MI etc."

I need to start loading the trunk with Cascade when I head up to see the sis. Make a little profit along the way. :D
Include NY in that listing.

LINK (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20090314/NEWS01/903140339/1002/NEWS) - dated March 14, 2009
In New York, Gov. David Paterson submitted a bill to the state Legislature late this week that would bar the sale of automatic dishwashing soap containing more than a minimal amount of phosphorus. A similar ban was placed on the sale of phosphate-rich laundry soap three decades ago
And what they gonna do about the fertilizer that farmers use?

[RTchoke]

I checked first. They say they'll ship Cascade to the 48 contiguous States. I'd let UPS be the mule.

I dunno that I'd want to be seen selling a white powdered substance out of a trunk in Washington. The cops might not think it's Cascade.

They will ship for now, but what if later they change their minds. :eek:

You never heard of those little dishwasher packets they have now?

[EnchantedFrog]

AP [Spokane] - Police yesterday raided a house on the east side, arresting 6 people engaged in an illegal soap manufacturing ring. They were alerted to the culprits by tips from neighbors saying they had the cleanest dishes on the block.

[Samm]

I checked first. They say they'll ship Cascade to the 48 contiguous States. I'd let UPS be the mule.

I dunno that I'd want to be seen selling a white powdered substance out of a trunk in Washington. The cops might not think it's Cascade.

Several years ago a cop saw a bag on white powder sitting on the front seat of a car parked outside a local laundromat... the car was unlocked so he checked the powder with his street test kit and it turned blue... indicating cocaine. When the young fellow came out with his laundry in hand, the cop arrested him and hauled him off to jail.

Of course the suspicious substance turned out to be Cheer laundry detergent, which turns blue when wet. ;)

I guess in Spokane, he would have been convicted anyway. :neutral:

[gdoane]

They will ship for now, but what if later they change their minds. :eek:

You never heard of those little dishwasher packets they have now?


There's no "what if later" because there's a full ban coming in July 2010. It's not banned in Washington State right now, it's only banned in Spokane County.

[CaptPops]

Phosphate has been banned in the Florida Keys in all soaps since 1971. Our clothes and dishes still get clean and I do not know of anyone who is smuggling any soap in. It is no big thing washing with it.

I remember back in the late 40s when photos were published of hugh soap foam balls about four feet high floating on the top of water in streams that a city's sewers dumped into. THe foam was caused by phosphate.

[Seanachie]

It appears that enzymes rather than phosphates are the way manufacturers have gone for the last several years. What goes into the water supply will eventually come out of that same water supply. It will certainly be interesting to see what environmental effects this stuff will have on the water supply when it is overwhelmed by this stuff. Two links follow;

http://www.privatelabelmag.com/pdf/pl_october2006/DishWasherDetergentDelivers.cfm

http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/a_220-Laundry_Detergent__How_Enzymes_are_Changing_Your_W ash

Back in the 70's a friend of mine worked in Proctor & Gamble factory in Staten Island NY. They were using enzymes at that time as an additive to laundry detergent. I vaguely remember him telling me that the stuff was eventually banned and the same stuff made him and many of his co-workers sick. Perhaps the technology has improved since then.

[gdoane]

It appears that enzymes rather than phosphates are the way manufacturers have gone for the last several years. What goes into the water supply will eventually come out of that same water supply. It will certainly be interesting to see what environmental effects this stuff will have on the water supply when it is overwhelmed by this stuff. Two links follow;

http://www.privatelabelmag.com/pdf/pl_october2006/DishWasherDetergentDelivers.cfm

http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/a_220-Laundry_Detergent__How_Enzymes_are_Changing_Your_W ash

Back in the 70's a friend of mine worked in Proctor & Gamble factory in Staten Island NY. They were using enzymes at that time as an additive to laundry detergent. I vaguely remember him telling me that the stuff was eventually banned and the same stuff made him and many of his co-workers sick. Perhaps the technology has improved since then.

That stuff in the 1970's was Sodium Nitrilotriacetate (NTA) which was fast-tracked in 1964 as an available substitute for phosphates. However, the FDA kept calling it bad stuff and wouldn't approve its use. The FDA finally approved it in 1980 after determining that it causing 2 in a million people to get cancer was "acceptable risk".

Nice to know our government loves us so.

[Seanachie]

That stuff in the 1970's was Sodium Nitrilotriacetate (NTA) which was fast-tracked in 1964 as an available substitute for phosphates. However, the FDA kept calling it bad stuff and wouldn't approve its use. The FDA finally approved it in 1980 after determining that it causing 2 in a million people to get cancer was "acceptable risk".

Nice to know our government loves us so.


Thanks for the info....This sounds like the stuff he described and as he put it 'this crap is hell to work with". He was out of work sick for a couple of months. And you are right; the Government certainly loves us to 'Death'.

[WeightsandSteaks]

If the environmentalists would get off their high horses and go to Walmart they would find an phosphate free dish soap called Simplicity that actually costs less than Cascade and works every bit as well. Of course due to their hatred of succesful companies they will probably continue to use worthless products like Seventh Gen.

[Z_only1]

Do Phosphate's generate more bang for your buck and are phosphates just natural?

As cleaning agents move away from phosphates, do you find yourself using more of other products to clean whatever?

Just some nielson rating questions....