National Anthem

[drylok]

See if you can get through this without shedding a tear.

http://www.footygi.com/view_video.php?viewkey=013ac554571fbd180e1c

:flag:

[breezyjr]

That was beautiful. Thank you.

And no I couldn't get through it without tears.

[ImNewHere]

A nice history lesson.

I'm just waiting for the anthem for the new North American Union. I bet it has a verse about Obama in it.

[jeepers]

See if you can get through this without shedding a tear.

http://www.footygi.com/view_video.php?viewkey=013ac554571fbd180e1c

:flag:


More than one.

:flag:

[BillyBobUSA]

Beautiful tribute.

Thank you for posting this.

Some further info on the song from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Spangled_Banner

Key was inspired by the American victory and the sight of the large American flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States) flying triumphantly above the fort. This flag, with fifteen stars and fifteen stripes, came to be known as the Star Spangled Banner Flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Spangled_Banner_Flag) and is today on display in the National Museum of American History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_American_History), a treasure of the Smithsonian Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Institution). It was restored in 1914 by Amelia Fowler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Fowler), and again in 1998 as part of an ongoing conservation program.
Aboard the ship the next day, Key wrote a poem on the back of a letter he had kept in his pocket. At twilight on 16 September, he and Skinner were released in Baltimore. He completed the poem at the Indian Queen Hotel, where he was staying, and he entitled it "Defence of Fort McHenry".
Key gave the poem to his brother-in-law, Judge Joseph H. Nicholson. Nicholson saw that the words fit the popular melody "The Anacreontic Song (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anacreontic_Song)", composed by John Stafford Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stafford_Smith), which was the official song of the Anacreontic Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacreontic_Society), an 18th-century gentlemen's club of amateur musicians in London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London). Nicholson took the poem to a printer in Baltimore, who anonymously printed broadside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadside_(music)) copies of it – the song’s first known printing – on September 17; of these, two known copies survive.
On September 20, both the Baltimore Patriot and The American printed the song, with the note "Tune: Anacreon in Heaven". The song quickly became popular, with seventeen newspapers from Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)) to New Hampshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire) printing it. Soon after, Thomas Carr of the Carr Music Store in Baltimore published the words and music together under the title "The Star-Spangled Banner", although it was originally called "Defence of Fort McHenry". The song’s popularity increased, and its first public performance took place in October, when Baltimore actor Ferdinand Durang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Durang) sang it at Captain McCauley’s tavern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavern)....
On November 3, 1929, Robert Ripley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ripley) drew a panel in his syndicated cartoon, Ripley's Believe it or Not! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripley%27s_Believe_it_or_Not!), saying "Believe It or Not, America has no national anthem".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Spangled_Banner#cite_note-5) In 1931, John Philip Sousa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philip_Sousa) published his opinion in favor, stating that "it is the spirit of the music that inspires" as much as it is Key’s "soul-stirring" words. By a law signed on March 3, 1931 by President Herbert Hoover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover), "The Star-Spangled Banner" was adopted as the official national anthem of the United States.

Lyrics of all four stanzas:

O! say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming.
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming.
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave![9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Spangled_Banner#cite_note-8)

[Harmonious]

See if you can get through this without shedding a tear.

http://www.footygi.com/view_video.php?viewkey=013ac554571fbd180e1c

:flag:

Good heavens! Thank you for sharing that.

I was dry-eyed until I understood WHY the flag stood at "that crazy angle."

Thank you for making me even prouder to be an American.

:flag:

[drylok]

The flag angle got me to and then when I tried to sing along I fell apart. Now I'm afraid the next time I'm asked to perform I won't be able to get through it cause I'll think of this clip :))

[Harmonious]

The flag angle got me to and then when I tried to sing along I fell apart. Now I'm afraid the next time I'm asked to perform I won't be able to get through it cause I'll think of this clip :))

You can do it. I just sang what Billybob posted. It was hard, but it was possible.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Well, I agree with one who commented. Facts not quite right, but nicely told.

ETA:

I remember visiting Fort McHenry about 10 years ago or so. The "facts" presented in this video just didn't mesh with what I learned on my visit there.

There weren't 'hundreds' of British ships. The flagstaff wasn't held up by stacks of dead bodies (only 4 were killed in the fort). Key had received sanction from the President to attempt to get release for one prisoner. Etc.

That's just what I thought I remembered, and verified on the NPS website. Hard to tell how many other mistakes are in there.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/star/flag.pdf

[BillyBobUSA]

Well, I agree with one who commented. Facts not quite right, but nicely told.

ETA:

I remember visiting Fort McHenry about 10 years ago or so. The "facts" presented in this video just didn't mesh with what I learned on my visit there.

There weren't 'hundreds' of British ships. The flagstaff wasn't held up by stacks of dead bodies (only 4 were killed in the fort). Key had received sanction from the President to attempt to get release for one prisoner. Etc.

That's just what I thought I remembered, and verified on the NPS website. Hard to tell how many other mistakes are in there.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/star/flag.pdf (http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/star/flag.pdf)


Once again, revisionism to the forefront.

1. The British had at least 19 warships and untold numbers of gunboats, supply ships and other specialised ships that were not warships. The British fleet could very well have numbered into the hundreds (ie 100+) if one is simply counting all ships flying the Union Jack.

2. Francis Scot Key and Skinner were sent to obtain the release of a popular doctor and also a friend of Key's but that does not mean that this was all the prisoners the British held at the time. And they were likely on one of the designated prisoner holding ships and it would have held other prisoners, other than the two Key's and Skinner were there for. The HMS Surprise had a history of being used to store prisoners and Keyes had been on that ship that night, so he may well have spoken to other American prisoners.

3. The total American casualties at the Battle of Baltimore was around 180 and there were around 28 at Ft McHenry and any number of wounded might have helped to keep the flag post up gladly.

It is amazing how much revisionism is running around as history. Between the romanticists on the one hand and the revisionists and deconstructionists on the other, it is pitiful any students can expect to learn anything of history at all these days.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

1. The British had at least 19 warships and untold numbers of gunboats, supply ships and other specialised ships that were not warships. The British fleet could very well have numbered into the hundreds (ie 100+) if one is simply counting all ships flying the Union Jack.Ah, but that isn't what he said, now is it?

2. Francis Scot Key and Skinner were sent to obtain the release of a popular doctor and also a friend of Key's but that does not mean that this was all the prisoners the British held at the time. And they were likely on one of the designated prisoner holding ships and it would have held other prisoners, other than the two Key's and Skinner were there for. The HMS Surprise had a history of being used to store prisoners and Keyes had been on that ship that night, so he may well have spoken to other American prisoners.Unlikely that the hold was filled with prisoners. Key was not 'sent' to negotiate a prisoner exchange. He got permission from the President to ask for the release of ONE man, Dr. Beanes.

3. The total American casualties at the Battle of Baltimore was around 180 and there were around 28 at Ft McHenry and any number of wounded might have helped to keep the flag post up gladly.The video said the men held it up and as they were killed, more came to take their place, and the flag was held up by the bodies of the dead.

Only 4 died at Fort McHenry. 24 wounded.

It is amazing how much revisionism is running around as history. Exactly what I thought as I watched this.

Heck, if you're going to revise history, at least make it entertaining:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jlFZhprU4

[Lady Liberty]

What a lovely video. The images of Americans saluting the flag was really moving. A tribute to the spirit that founded our country and that still lives in the hearts of free men.

How many today, if we were in those soldier's places, are clear enough in our hearts to use our body to hold up that flag in the face of unrelenting enemy fire?

I loved that G.Washington quote: "The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today."
"We and all others who believe in freedom as deeply as we do, would rather die on our feet than live on our knees."
~

[Floydian]

Roseanne's rendition is a much bigger tearjerker. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrFW2aYHVR8

[LoneStarHero]

That video was delightfully tacky. The whole thing made me laugh.

[Mimiheart]

It's a drinking song. How many national anthems are drinking songs?

[LoneStarHero]

Once again, revisionism to the forefront.

1. The British had at least 19 warships and untold numbers of gunboats, supply ships and other specialised ships that were not warships. The British fleet could very well have numbered into the hundreds (ie 100+) if one is simply counting all ships flying the Union Jack.

2. Francis Scot Key and Skinner were sent to obtain the release of a popular doctor and also a friend of Key's but that does not mean that this was all the prisoners the British held at the time. And they were likely on one of the designated prisoner holding ships and it would have held other prisoners, other than the two Key's and Skinner were there for. The HMS Surprise had a history of being used to store prisoners and Keyes had been on that ship that night, so he may well have spoken to other American prisoners.

3. The total American casualties at the Battle of Baltimore was around 180 and there were around 28 at Ft McHenry and any number of wounded might have helped to keep the flag post up gladly.

It is amazing how much revisionism is running around as history. Between the romanticists on the one hand and the revisionists and deconstructionists on the other, it is pitiful any students can expect to learn anything of history at all these days.

Well at least we now know who the Arab propagandists model themselves after :)

[BillBrown]

I've never liked the song.

The lyrics are poorly written.

If no one had told you, you would not know it referred to the United States of America. The only clue is that it speaks of a flag with stars and stripes. That could be a dozen different countries.

The melody is atrocious. It takes an accomplished singer to properly hit the notes without breaking.
That's not suitable for a song that everyone should be able to sing.

We could have done a lot better, in choosing a national anthem.

[Mimiheart]

I've never liked the song.

The lyrics are poorly written.

If no one had told you, you would not know it referred to the United States of America. The only clue is that it speaks of a flag with stars and stripes. That could be a dozen different countries.

The melody is atrocious. It takes an accomplished singer to properly hit the notes without breaking.
That's not suitable for a song that everyone should be able to sing.

We could have done a lot better, in choosing a national anthem.
That's because the melody is meant to be sung when you're drunk. I can sing it--I have sung it at various sporting events. It's just, well, it's not very melodic.

I prefer "America the Beautiful."

[drylok]

Note To Self: No more posting patriotic songs if they are not accurate to the T, regardless of how moving it is or what inspiration one might gain from it, got it :confused:

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Note To Self: No more posting patriotic songs if they are not accurate to the T, regardless of how moving it is or what inspiration one might gain from it, got it :confused:
Hun, that wasn't the point. It was far more than just a bit inaccurate. The true story is inspiring enough without the embellishment.

[BillyBobUSA]

Ah, but that isn't what he said, now is it?

Yes, he said hundreds and hundreds is within the realm of plausibility.

You certainly have failed to prove otherwise.


Unlikely that the hold was filled with prisoners. Key was not 'sent' to negotiate a prisoner exchange. He got permission from the President to ask for the release of ONE man, Dr. Beanes.

That is a prisoner exchange, genius, whether it is one or a million.


The video said the men held it up and as they were killed, more came to take their place, and the flag was held up by the bodies of the dead.

Again, plausible if only two men were killed holding it aloft and then propping it up with the bodies. Having four dead and 24 more wouded is well withint the claim here.

Only 4 died at Fort McHenry. 24 wounded.

'Only', lol.

That is not a surprising comment from you, not at all.

[BillyBobUSA]

Note To Self: No more posting patriotic songs if they are not accurate to the T, regardless of how moving it is or what inspiration one might gain from it, got it :confused:


That is what the harpies *want*.

Dont give in to the harrassment and stay true to our history as you were, drylock.

[BillyBobUSA]

I've never liked the song.

The lyrics are poorly written.

If no one had told you, you would not know it referred to the United States of America. The only clue is that it speaks of a flag with stars and stripes. That could be a dozen different countries.

The melody is atrocious. It takes an accomplished singer to properly hit the notes without breaking.
That's not suitable for a song that everyone should be able to sing.

We could have done a lot better, in choosing a national anthem.

Thank you for your opinion.

*flush*

Now that that is used as it deserves, what does anyone else think about our nations beautiful national anthem?

[BillyBobUSA]

Well at least we now know who the Arab propagandists model themselves after :)


Francis Scot Key?

:think:

[BillyBobUSA]

That video was delightfully tacky. The whole thing made me laugh.

Yeah, Americans getting killed defending their country is so funny.

What is it about the expression of patriotic love for country that draws all the America-hating dimwits out of the woodwork?

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Yes, he said hundreds and hundreds is within the realm of plausibility.

You certainly have failed to prove otherwise.On the contrary, I posted a link from the NPS site, with additional sources footnoted.




That is a prisoner exchange, genius, whether it is one or a million.Do you know what exchange means?




Again, plausible if only two men were killed holding it aloft and then propping it up with the bodies. Having four dead and 24 more wouded is well withint the claim here.One was a woman hit as she brought in supplies, IIRC. So we're down to 3. Three bodies would not hold the pole at that angle.



'Only', lol.

That is not a surprising comment from you, not at all.

Considering there was 25 hours of constant bombardment, yes "only".

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Yeah, Americans getting killed defending their country is so funny.

What is it about the expression of patriotic love for country that draws all the America-hating dimwits out of the woodwork?

What is it about some cons that they feel they must lie and embellish and revise history?

[RickRhetoric]

Yeah, it's pretty touching and all that. But conservatives should forgo their patriotic songs; cherished constitutional articles and amendments; founding father stories; principles; and high moral road attitude and get down and nasty into the streets for awhile. Take their country back and then go back to their cherished principles and traditions.

[Rhonda]

See if you can get through this without shedding a tear.

http://www.footygi.com/view_video.php?viewkey=013ac554571fbd180e1c

:flag:

:clap:

Tears, chills, and pride :flag: And inspiration to keep our country on the right track

[super cool ski instructor]

I enjoyed the video Dry ;)

Too bad a few people need to come in and **** on a nice thread like this.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

I enjoyed the video Dry ;)

Too bad a few people need to come in and **** on a nice thread like this.

Yeah. Damn those facts, anyway. Always ruining fantasies. :rolleyes:

[MrDuffy]

A nice history lesson.

I'm just waiting for the anthem for the new North American Union. I bet it has a verse about Obama in it.
Go to Glenn Beck's website and play the Obama Anthem

[who]

I've enjoyed the debate.

Soon I expect someone to tell us we won the war of 1812.

[LoneStarHero]

Francis Scot Key?

:think:

Nope, the revisionist history shown in the OP video.

[drylok]

I'm a lost for words here. There may be some incorrect information in the clip, but I know what I feel in my heart when the anthem is playing and while I don't know factually what all the circumstances were that day at Fort McHenry, I'm pretty sure those prisoners shared in their hearts then what I do today. Things like freedom, liberty, natural rights, limited government and the pursuit of individual happiness.
And that was really my whole point in posting this.

[MrDuffy]

I've enjoyed the debate.

Soon I expect someone to tell us we won the war of 1812.
First you'd better find someone who can tell you what year it was fought in.:))

[BillyBobUSA]

I've enjoyed the debate.

Soon I expect someone to tell us we won the war of 1812.


We did win the War of 1812, since you brought it up.

We crushed the Amerindian tribes within our territory that allied with the Brits, secured New Orleans and demonstrated to the world that we could defend ourselves against a major European power.

The Brits accomplished nothing on the other hand except to get a bunch of people killed.

[BillyBobUSA]

Nope, the revisionist history shown in the OP video.

It is not revisionist history simply because you despise any tale of heroism.

[BillyBobUSA]

On the contrary, I posted a link from the NPS site, with additional sources footnoted.

Which did not prove anything regarding the number of ships present.


Do you know what exchange means?

Yes, I do and Skinner was a recognised prisoner exchange negotiator. Goign to the enemy at that time and negotiating for the release of any prisoners fell under the category of prisoner exchange.


One was a woman hit as she brought in supplies, IIRC. So we're down to 3. Three bodies would not hold the pole at that angle.

What angle? Do you know?

No, you dont. Your statement is merely a rhetorical dodge, number 53,984 for you, unless I lost my count somewhere.



Considering there was 25 hours of constant bombardment, yes "only".

If one of them were *your* son I am sure you would see my point.

But of course I doubt there is much risk of that ever happening.

[BillyBobUSA]

What is it about some cons that they feel they must lie and embellish and revise history?


What is it about librul, America-hating twits that they think that they have disproven something by simply registering disagreement?

[who]

We did win the War of 1812, since you brought it up.

We crushed the Amerindian tribes within our territory that allied with the Brits, secured New Orleans and demonstrated to the world that we could defend ourselves against a major European power.

The Brits accomplished nothing on the other hand except to get a bunch of people killed.
And there you have it.

Sorry Billy. The War of 1812 was a stalemate.

If anyone 'won' - it was the Canadians.

[who]

First you'd better find someone who can tell you what year it was fought in.:))
??

[BillyBobUSA]

And there you have it.

Sorry Billy. The War of 1812 was a stalemate.

If anyone 'won' - it was the Canadians.


This is funny.

I gave you several different things that demonstrate in no uncertain terms that we won that war.

And your response is not to present counter facts and arguments but to simply repeat an unwarranted assertion that you have not yet proved or supported in any way.

There is a word for that, but I am trying to be polite.

[BillyBobUSA]

??


His point is that it was not fought solely within 1812, but from 1812 to 1815.

Its kind of like the trick question, 'Who is buried in Grants Tomb' in that it appears to have an obvious answer but it doesnt.

Most people dont realise this and that is what he was driving at.

[who]

This is funny.

I gave you several different things that demonstrate in no uncertain terms that we won that war.

And your response is not to present counter facts and arguments but to simply repeat an unwarranted assertion that you have not yet proved or supported in any way.

There is a word for that, but I am trying to be polite.Are you really debating this?

Seriously?


If you want to say we gained prestige by that war, and reaffirmed our independence, then yes, a case could be made, but we DID NOT 'win' that war, and nearly all historians agree: It was a stalemate.

It was an offensive war on our part. We were the ones who declared it, and the Brits who were on the defense. I get the impression some folks think war was declared on us. :eh:

Many scholars agree it was the Brits who won militarily.
Did we have some victorious battles? Of course, but it was clear, no ground was gained. By 1814, both sides were pretty spent, war weary and ready to call it quits.

One thing was clear: our attempts to conquer Canada was disastrous. As I said, if anyone 'won' - it was Canada.

But we did get a great song out of the war.


:razz:

[who]

If one of them were *your* son I am sure you would see my point.

But of course I doubt there is much risk of that ever happening.

What did you mean by this?

[Chuangtzu]

US declares war.

US attempts to annex Canada.

British, Canadian and Indian regulars and irregulars repel US forces.

British sack US Capitol.

Take numerous US ships.

Treaty of Ghent: Status Quo Ante, US fails to annex Canada.

1812: Not won by US.

[CrusaderFrank]

US declares war.

US attempts to annex Canada.

British, Canadian and Indian regulars and irregulars repel US forces.

British sack US Capitol.

Take numerous US ships.

Treaty of Ghent: Status Quo Ante, US fails to annex Canada.

1812: Not won by US.

"...Some non-American writers have suggested that Americans wanted to seize parts of Canada, though historians usually argue this was a tactic designed to obtain a bargaining chip."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

It's from the Bible: Wikipedia

[Chuangtzu]

We did win the War of 1812, since you brought it up.

We crushed the Amerindian tribes within our territory that allied with the Brits, secured New Orleans and demonstrated to the world that we could defend ourselves against a major European power.

The Brits accomplished nothing on the other hand except to get a bunch of people killed.

Bwuh?

The British dislodged the US from Canada, blockaded the Eastern seaboard, ended all hopes for US exploitation of Napoleonic conquests on the continent by way of Canadian annexation, did real damage to the US Navy and forced the US to agree to status quo antebellum.

[Chuangtzu]

"...Some non-American writers have suggested that Americans wanted to seize parts of Canada, though historians usually argue this was a tactic designed to obtain a bargaining chip."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

It's from the Bible: Wikipedia

Wanted to seize? American forces seized and occupied British territory in Canada. And were rather duly repelled.

[Chuangtzu]

And the OP is rankest emotionalism. Delicious irony, given all the "manly" reproaches of "liberal" emotional focus.

Shed a tear? Oy vey.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

But of course I doubt there is much risk of that ever happening.

Although I have daughters and no sons, you continue to show that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[BillyBobUSA]

Are you really debating this?

Seriously?


If you want to say we gained prestige by that war, and reaffirmed our independence, then yes, a case could be made, but we DID NOT 'win' that war, and nearly all historians agree: It was a stalemate.

It was an offensive war on our part. We were the ones who declared it, and the Brits who were on the defense. I get the impression some folks think war was declared on us. :eh:

Many scholars agree it was the Brits who won militarily.
Did we have some victorious battles? Of course, but it was clear, no ground was gained. By 1814, both sides were pretty spent, war weary and ready to call it quits.

One thing was clear: our attempts to conquer Canada was disastrous. As I said, if anyone 'won' - it was Canada.

But we did get a great song out of the war.


:razz:

'Winning' a war is not like a football game where one team has a higher score than the other, or one nation gaining more territory necesarily in order to consider one to have 'won' the war.

You have to look at the issues that brought about the conflict and where those issues were left at the end of the war.

We had basically three issues with the UK in 1812.

1. Britain did not respect the US as a nation. Britain was a major European power and regarded the US as a rump set of renegade colonies, independent only due to the interference of France and able to be brought back into the fold of His Majesty by coin or bayonette. They manifested this disregard in two ways:

2. The Brits kidnapped our sailors on the high seas and refused to stop doing so. They felt there was nothing we could do about it and they needed sailors, so they took ours by force.

3. The Brits organised, aided, supplied and abetted hostile Amerindian tribes to oppose US expansion to the West. The Confederation of Tecumseh and the Red Stick Creek Indians were raiding our settlements west of the Appalachians with weapons supplied by the Brits and bringing in scalps for British bounties. This effort greatly impeded our efforts to colonise westward. The Brits also held US territory under its control in todays Midwest and used it as a base of supply to their Amerindian allies.

We accomplished all our aims in going to war with Britain in these regards.

Despite having a very much smaller navy, we were able to inflict great losses on the high seas to British commerce, much more than they inflicted on us. And our battleships were proven to be better than the Brits one on one and the Brits were ordered to engage our warships only in superior number. Our navy was the only navy in the world to acheive this level of high regard from the British. By 1815 the Brits stopped kidapping our sailors for their own navy.

We destroyed the Amerindian allies the Brits nourished for decades. We killed Tecumseh at the battle of the Thames and eradicated armed resistance by the Creek Indians. By 1815 the Brtish were entirely expunged from our Midwestern territories and our invasion of Canada was successful until logistical problems forced a withdrawal, but the Brits knew that if another war started with us we could take Canada by force.

We proved to the Brits we could stand as a nation, destroyed their allies, ended their impressment of our sailors, and took full posession of the territory they had agreed to concede to us but had never honored.

So, yes, we won that war and I dont care what academic pinheads disagree. If they cant understand what we had gained in that war then they're not worth persuading.

[BillyBobUSA]

Although I have daughters and no sons, you continue to show that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I think you proved my point, lol.