Be ye holy for I am holy! [Archive] - Sean Hannity Discussion

nointed

March 11th, 2009, 12:29 pm

Today in America there is alot of misconceptions about being a Christian. To be a Christian one must come to a point in life where they humble themselves and ask Jesus to be their Lord and Savior. Most people don't have a problem with Jesus being their savior. Having Jesus as Lord and being in charge of one's life causes some to cringe. We Christians in the land of good and plenty have developed a Burger King mentality and we want to have it "Our way" when it comes to serving God. That won't do. We have to serve God his way. To break it down: God expects us to do what he wants,how he wants it and when he wants it done. He wants us to be holy as he is holy. In the bible God spells out how we are to live and conduct ourselves in this wicked world. Christians need to study the word and attend a bible believing church regularly. Yes we can worship God in private and we should but we also need to worship in a public assembly where we can encourage others and be instructed.

We need to measure success in life as us doing the will of God. If God has called you to be a mother and wife that is your calling. Do it with the joy of the Lord! Maybe you are a janitor and you spend your work day sweeping and mopping. Thank God and keep scrubbing and sweeping away. Whatever state you are presently in thank God for whatever he sends your way. Recommitt your life to him and ask him to take firm control of your life. The Lord Jesus Christ loves you and wants to work with you. He has a plan for your life. The best days are ahead and not behind us. There is no time like the present to fine tune your spiritual life!

Good post. You make a good point.. what it really means to be a Christian. First and foremost, it means to be a disciple of Christ. Our goal regardless of our natural position in the society we live in, is to be Christlike. This is what a disciple does, he imitates & follows his teachers' example. A disciple embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of his Rabbi, or Teacher. Disciples actively participate in the adherents of the movement or philosophy they are commited to. In our case, as Christians, that would be Word of God.

Regardless of what one is "called"to do in their life currently or in their future, the bottom line is always becomming holy in Christ's Image. It is a process and as we grow in our understanding of discipleship, we fine tune our walk according to our knowldege of His ways.

And you are so right about the "burger king" mentality. This is a problem when our ways are not His ways. Even if something seems like a good idea, it's not if it doesn't line up with His "ideas" so to speak. Many American Christians, and American churches have lost their original intent.. to produce and to become Disciples of Christ in every arena of our lives. We are called above all other callings to be the Salt of the Earth, The Light in the darkness. We are Christ's ambassadors.

Semi-Sweet

March 11th, 2009, 12:40 pm

He has a plan for your life.

I have heard this said often and I don't understand because I can't find anything that relates to this in Scripture.

Does this mean that God has our life planned out for us? As a parent I didn't plan my children's lives out for them, but allowed them the freedom to find their own paths.

If we think that God has a plan for our lives wouldn't we mostly just wait around until God let us know what His plan for us was instead of living and doing and deciding for ourselves what is the best course for us?

TaylorW65

March 11th, 2009, 12:49 pm

I have heard this said often and I don't understand because I can't find anything that relates to this in Scripture.

Does this mean that God has our life planned out for us? As a parent I didn't plan my children's lives out for them, but allowed them the freedom to find their own paths.

If we think that God has a plan for our lives wouldn't we mostly just wait around until God let us know what His plan for us was instead of living and doing and deciding for ourselves what is the best course for us?

I think you're right about God not having a specific plan for our lives. That would mean we don't have free will to choose. I believe we have the freedom of choice to do what we want to do with our lives. That freedom is is part of God love for us.

I believe we can receive guidance from God and support, encouragement and even wisdom but the choice is still ours.

I do not think God chooses our careers, our spouses or our anything for us. It is all our choice.

I think God is more concerned with shaping our character to be more loving and Christlike. Or, in other words, to be a light in this dark world. But where we go about being that light is entirely up to us.

I do believe that not everything will go our way in life and there are many thing we cannot change which we need God's help to accept. Also just because we have freedom of choice to do what we want it doesn't mean what we want to do with our lives is always what is good for us or a wise choice.

RayMan

March 11th, 2009, 12:53 pm

5thIDSoldier

March 11th, 2009, 12:53 pm

For the OP:

Ezekiel 33:31 (King James Version)

And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness

I know its Old Testament, but the very words here to me are very descriptive of the current state of modern Christianity.

hben

March 11th, 2009, 12:59 pm

I have heard this said often and I don't understand because I can't find anything that relates to this in Scripture.

Does this mean that God has our life planned out for us? As a parent I didn't plan my children's lives out for them, but allowed them the freedom to find their own paths.

If we think that God has a plan for our lives wouldn't we mostly just wait around until God let us know what His plan for us was instead of living and doing and deciding for ourselves what is the best course for us?

If you know that the "outhouse" is due south of the house, then if you need to go in the middle of the night I have some suggestions that might help you find it.

1. Keep a good light (including fuel or batteries) with you at all times to help you see the path.

2. Keep a compass for bad weather. A light helps you see the path in the dark, but in heavy fog, snow or rain you need something to give you direction when you can't see the path.

3. Don't get off the path to play around with animals like pigs, goats, dogs and especially not wolves dressed like sheep unless you believe they are looking for the path as well. In that case shine your light, so they can see you clearly until they can see the path well enough to follow it, too. If you see any sheep off the path, it is ok to take time to help them get back on it since they are not likely to keep you off of the path as some of the other animals mentioned tend to do.

Note: These suggestions may not make as much sense to city folks as they do to country folks. LOL

Semi-Sweet

March 11th, 2009, 1:10 pm

I think you're right about God not having a specific plan for our lives. That would mean we don't have free will to choose. I believe we have the freedom of choice to do what we want to do with our lives. That freedom is is part of God love for us.

I believe we can receive guidance from God and support, encouragement and even wisdom but the choice is still ours.

I do not think God chooses our careers, our spouses or our anything for us. It is all our choice.

I think God is more concerned with shaping our character to be more loving and Christlike. Or, in other words, to be a light in this dark world. But where we go about being that light is entirely up to us.

I do believe that not everything will go our way in life and there are many thing we cannot change which we need God's help to accept. Also just because we have freedom of choice to do what we want it doesn't mean what we want to do with our lives is always what is good for us or a wise choice.

That is the way I see it. Some people live in terrible surroundings, and have no control over their lives. If they believed that God had a plan for the lives of His children, they would have good reason to think that He hated them. I do believe that God's ear is open to His children's prayers for strength to overcome life's trials.

TaylorW65

March 11th, 2009, 1:18 pm

People often use the following verse - God talking to the nation of Israel during the Babylonian captivity - to say the He has a specific plan for each of our lives.

Jeremiah 29:11-13 (New International Version)

11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

I believe that God gives us hope and a future but that scripture doesn't ever say God has specific plans for our lives.

Also, knowing many fellow Christians as I have through my life not all of them have found specific plans for their lives. Their lives looks like a game of chutes and ladders. Also know many Christians who are waiting for God's plan to unfold instead of living in the here and now and living the life they have instead of waiting for the life they think they're going to get.

Gem

March 11th, 2009, 3:13 pm

The bible has a lot of things you must do ,and things you must not do, in it.

Just do all the does and do not do all the don'ts and you will end up holy in the eyes of God.

bobfisher

March 11th, 2009, 3:32 pm

I have heard this said often and I don't understand because I can't find anything that relates to this in Scripture.

How about Jeremiah?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. 7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

And what about Joseph? He didn't choose to go to Egypt. God just sent him there.

Genesis 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

And what about Joseph's brothers? Who REALLY sent Josepth to Egypt?

If we think that God has a plan for our lives wouldn't we mostly just wait around until God let us know...

No, God works in us both to will (desire to do) and to do His good pleasure.

Angryamerican

March 11th, 2009, 3:40 pm

God does have a plan,and that plan will have an effect on every man,woman,and child.

His plan is to rid the earth of all evil,we are on one road or the other.

One leads to life and the other leads to destruction.

Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are the ones entering in through it.
Mat 7:14 For narrow is the gate, and constricted is the way that leads away into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Mat 7:15 But beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inside they are plundering wolves.

smyrna

March 11th, 2009, 6:11 pm

Seek and you will find.

Notice that seek comes first...

There is often a strengthening of faith that matures while seeking.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 11th, 2009, 10:27 pm

Do you mean it means to be in the World but not part of the world?

You have it right! Yes we are in the world but we do not have to adopt the worlds values and customs. We don't have to partake of the worlds sins. We need to be Christlike and the salt of the earth.

Semi-Sweet

March 11th, 2009, 10:45 pm

if you know that the "outhouse" is due south of the house, then if you need to go in the middle of the night i have some suggestions that might help you find it.

1. Keep a good light (including fuel or batteries) with you at all times to help you see the path.

2. Keep a compass for bad weather. A light helps you see the path in the dark, but in heavy fog, snow or rain you need something to give you direction when you can't see the path.

3. Don't get off the path to play around with animals like pigs, goats, dogs and especially not wolves dressed like sheep unless you believe they are looking for the path as well. In that case shine your light, so they can see you clearly until they can see the path well enough to follow it, too. If you see any sheep off the path, it is ok to take time to help them get back on it since they are not likely to keep you off of the path as some of the other animals mentioned tend to do.

Note: These suggestions may not make as much sense to city folks as they do to country folks. Lol

:)) :)) :)) :))

Semi-Sweet

March 11th, 2009, 10:47 pm

hben

March 11th, 2009, 10:49 pm

:)) :)) :)) :))

And don't laugh so hard, because I am as serious as a pig on his way to the outhouse. :shhh: :naughty: :dance: :cool: :hug:

Semi-Sweet

March 11th, 2009, 11:01 pm

And don't laugh so hard, because I am as serious as a pig on his way to the outhouse. :shhh: :naughty: :dance: :cool: :hug:

:hug:

hben

March 11th, 2009, 11:09 pm

:hug:

Are you spreading your wings, so you can you fly higher than an eagle? "You are the wind beneath my wings..." sounds a little more humble and even more spiritual than "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble..."; DON'T YA THINK? ;)

Semi-Sweet

March 12th, 2009, 11:48 am

No, God works in us both to will (desire to do) and to do His good pleasure.

How about my sweet sister? She died last year from ALS . . .she was in her forties and left children and grandchildren behind. Was that God's plan for her to have that tragic illness? Was that for His good pleasure? Show me the person who believes that.

Semi-Sweet

March 12th, 2009, 11:55 am

Are you spreading your wings, so you can you fly higher than an eagle? "You are the wind beneath my wings..." sounds a little more humble and even more spiritual than "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble..."; DON'T YA THINK? ;)

It might be hard to be humble if you are flying higher than an eagle. . .ya think? :angel:

hben

March 12th, 2009, 1:03 pm

It might be hard to be humble if you are flying higher than an eagle. . .ya think? :angel:

Good point...I may have to ponder a bit on that one. :think:

WALKINGHADLEY

March 12th, 2009, 6:14 pm

How about my sweet sister? She died last year from ALS . . .she was in her forties and left children and grandchildren behind. Was that God's plan for her to have that tragic illness? Was that for His good pleasure? Show me the person who believes that.

I am sorry to hear about your sister. Death is sorrowful at any age but even more so when one dies so young. God does not will us evil but good. His plans are calculated on an eternal timeframe. What is best for us in the light of eternity may seem bad in the shortness of this life. God loves us and everything he does and allows to happen to us is out of love.

There are some mysterys that will only be revealed in eternity. Just trust God for the best. He allowed this to happen for some reason. I cannot answer for God but I can reassure you that all things work for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose. Life is so short and we will be in eternity soon basking in the light of Gods love.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 12th, 2009, 6:25 pm

The bible has a lot of things you must do ,and things you must not do, in it.

Correct. However the bible is so much more than that. It is Gods love letter to us. In its pages are words of life and truth. The history of man is spelled out. Gods dealings with men is recorded. We should look to the word of God as our GPS to direct us thru this life. If our lives are not built on the word we run the risk of making a wrong turn or worse-not making our final destination.

TaylorW65

March 12th, 2009, 7:13 pm

Correct. However the bible is so much more than that. It is Gods love letter to us. In its pages are words of life and truth. The history of man is spelled out. Gods dealings with men is recorded. We should look to the word of God as our GPS to direct us thru this life. If our lives are not built on the word we run the risk of making a wrong turn or worse-not making our final destination.

I could tell you stories about Bible believing Christians who made very poor choices thinking they were following God's words or God's direction. Their lives were left with huge messes to clean up and the lives of others hurt in the process.

My observation is that when people think they are following God's guidance as written in the Bible they also seem to turn off their own common sense thinking.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 12th, 2009, 10:11 pm

My observation is that when people think they are following God's guidance as written in the Bible they also seem to turn off their own common sense thinking.

Not knowing exactly what situtations and bible verses you are referring to I can't say much. Gods word is true however sometimes men twist it to justify foolish choices. Faith though sometimes defies logic.

TaylorW65

March 12th, 2009, 11:00 pm

Not knowing exactly what situtations and bible verses you are referring to I can't say much. Gods word is true however sometimes men twist it to justify foolish choices. Faith though sometimes defies logic.

I have seen people take a Bible verse, believe that God had directed them to that verse to confirm a direction that they should go in and it turned out disastrous.

I really am cautious about such things because our self will can get in there so much and we can be deceiving ourselves thinking we are following the will of God but it is only the will of the self.

Ron Jon

March 12th, 2009, 11:04 pm

Sounds like the OP is advocating Lordship Salvation.
http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_salvation
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/BookReviews/gospel.htm

bobfisher

March 12th, 2009, 11:26 pm

How about my sweet sister? She died last year from ALS . . .she was in her forties and left children and grandchildren behind. Was that God's plan for her to have that tragic illness? Was that for His good pleasure? Show me the person who believes that.

What I said was that God works in us to want to do His good pleasure and to do His good pleasure. I was not addressing the issue of tragedy. I was addressing why we should not sit idly waiting for God to do something apart from us, because God works in and through us.

I'm sorry for the loss of your sweet sister. My brother also died in his forties not to long ago -- from alcholism -- and in spite of his addiction, he was still a kind and gentle person. No, God does not take pleasure in anyone's death. However, I do believe that death is part of God's plan whether I like the idea or not. Either death is part of God's plan or God has lost control of His creation. Thankfully, Jesus has the keys to death and hades.

Semi-Sweet

March 13th, 2009, 6:26 pm

What I said was that God works in us to want to do His good pleasure and to do His good pleasure. I was not addressing the issue of tragedy. I was addressing why we should not sit idly waiting for God to do something apart from us, because God works in and through us.

I'm sorry for the loss of your sweet sister. My brother also died in his forties not to long ago -- from alcholism -- and in spite of his addiction, he was still a kind and gentle person. No, God does not take pleasure in anyone's death. However, I do believe that death is part of God's plan whether I like the idea or not. Either death is part of God's plan or God has lost control of His creation. Thankfully, Jesus has the keys to death and hades.

I am sorry that I misunderstood. I am sorry for your loss of your brother Bob, and you are right. . . . physical death is a part of living on this earth. I accept that, and I am not afraid of the death of this physical body. I also believe and am comforted by Jesus' words in John 11:25. . ."I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. . ."

bobfisher

March 13th, 2009, 8:05 pm

I am sorry that I misunderstood. I am sorry for your loss of your brother Bob, and you are right. . . . physical death is a part of living on this earth. I accept that, and I am not afraid of the death of this physical body. I also believe and am comforted by Jesus' words in John 11:25. . ."I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. . ."

Amen & thanks Semi-Sweet!

WALKINGHADLEY

March 13th, 2009, 11:09 pm

I have seen people take a Bible verse, believe that God had directed them to that verse to confirm a direction that they should go in and it turned out disastrous.

I really am cautious about such things because our self will can get in there so much and we can be deceiving ourselves thinking we are following the will of God but it is only the will of the self.

To understand any bible verse you must understand the context of the section in the bible where that verse was written. It is easy to take a certain verses of the bible out of context to justify foolish choices.

Fig Tree

March 13th, 2009, 11:44 pm

John 11:25. . ."I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. . ."

There is a statement there that many miss, and that is the word believe. What is it to believe? What does it really mean? It is about faith and trust...Jesus left us simple guidance to what it takes to believe...in Matthew 16

24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Deny self...turn from sin and worldly desires let him be the LORD of your life

Take up his cross...be a living sacrafice acceptable to God

Follow me...follow God's commandments, follow the ways of Jesus his sinless perfection, his acknowledgement of the Father's continual work...

TaylorW65

March 14th, 2009, 7:49 pm

There is a statement there that many miss, and that is the word believe. What is it to believe? What does it really mean? It is about faith and trust...Jesus left us simple guidance to what it takes to believe...in Matthew 16

24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Deny self...turn from sin and worldly desires let him be the LORD of your life

Take up his cross...be a living sacrafice acceptable to God

Follow me...follow God's commandments, follow the ways of Jesus his sinless perfection, his acknowledgement of the Father's continual work...

You makes some excellent points here. When Jesus said such things as I am the way, the truth and the life and no ones comes to the Father except through me, he was pointing to himself as a a model of what it is like to live a Godly life. In other words if you want to know how to be Godly Jesus says look at the example I have set.

So There are many people, and have been many people throughout recorded time, who have done the things Jesus has done, and walked a path of being loving, self-denying, service to others, compassion and kindness, trusting and having a relationship with God.

...and not all of these people fall under the label or the box of the Christian Religion.

This is why we cannot and must not claim these Godly acts and behaviors as only belonging to the Christian faith. They are universal...all who Love and try to walk a Godly path do know God and you can call yourself whatever you like...Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Taoist, Baha'i, Jew, etc, etc.

One God, one path with many different names.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 14th, 2009, 7:55 pm

You makes some excellent points here. When Jesus said such things as I am the way, the truth and the life and no ones comes to the Father except through me, he was pointing to himself as a a model of what it is like to live a Godly life. In other words if you want to know how to be Godly Jesus says look at the example I have set.

When Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the light he meant he was the only way to the father. There is salvation in no other name. Jesus death on the cross paid the price for our sins. Only Jesus could redeem us from the penalty of sin thru his precious sinless blood and he did. He is the only true and living God and he will be our judge. We can not earn our way to heaven by living a good life. All of these other "characters" you mention are mere men and can not give salvation.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 14th, 2009, 7:59 pm

One God, one path with many different names.

Yes there is only one true and living God and that is the Lord Jesus Christ! Straight is the path and narrow is the gate that leads to salvation. That path does not run thru Budda, or Mohamed, or Rev Moon or Confusionuis

TaylorW65

March 14th, 2009, 8:05 pm

Yes there is only one true and living God and that is the Lord Jesus Christ! Straight is the path and narrow is the gate that leads to salvation. That path does not run thru Budda, or Mohamed, or Rev Moon or Confusionuis
I will say it again and again. The way to salvation is through what Jesus did but it is not synonymous with the Christian Religion.

I am not saying that these people you listed can bring salvation I am saying these people are also saved by what Jesus did, despite not tagging a Christian label on themselves.

Although why you have included Rev. Moon with those others makes me scratch my head in wonder.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 14th, 2009, 11:40 pm

I am not saying that these people you listed can bring salvation I am saying these people are also saved by what Jesus did, despite not tagging a Christian label on themselves.

Jesus paid the price for all of our sins on the cross. However we have to accept Jesus death on the cross as that payment and accept him as Lord and Savior of our life. Those who reject Christ and refuse to believe on him are not saved. Just being a good person and doing good works will not save us. We do have the power of choice as moral beings. God did not create us to be robots and he is glorified when we freely choose his love and his plan for us. He said if we love him to obey his commandments. The chief commandment was that we love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul and mind. We need to carry out the will of God for our lives on a daily basis.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 14th, 2009, 11:48 pm

Although why you have included Rev. Moon with those others makes me scratch my head in wonder.
__________________

Rev Moon is a type of antichrist who spreads false doctrine. He fell out of favor here when his tactics were exposed years ago but still has alot of followers in other nations such as Korea. One one side we have the king of kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ. On the other side is all of these false prophets and so called "Gods" who lead multitudes astray.

TaylorW65

March 15th, 2009, 12:12 am

Jesus paid the price for all of our sins on the cross. However we have to accept Jesus death on the cross as that payment and accept him as Lord and Savior of our life. Those who reject Christ and refuse to believe on him are not saved. Just being a good person and doing good works will not save us. We do have the power of choice as moral beings. God did not create us to be robots and he is glorified when we freely choose his love and his plan for us. He said if we love him to obey his commandments. The chief commandment was that we love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul and mind. We need to carry out the will of God for our lives on a daily basis.

From the Christian Universalist Association...

We believe in a God who is Love, Light, Truth, and Spirit, the Creator of the universe, whom we are called to seek, know, and love; and whose nature was revealed to the world in the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.

We believe that the universal commandment is to love and serve one another as each loves oneself. We believe in the law of justice by which actions generate consequences, whether to be manifested in this life or the life to come.

We believe in the ultimate triumph of divine mercy and grace: that no being ever created will be condemned or allowed to suffer forever, but God has arranged through a benevolent plan of learning and growth for all souls to attain salvation, reconciliation, restoration, and reunion with the Source of All Being, in the fullness of the ages.

We believe every person is the divine offspring of God, created in the image of the Heavenly Parent of all; and that every person is destined to be raised up from imperfection to maturity according to the pattern of the archetypal Christ, the Son of God, the Perfect Human in whose image all humanity shall be transformed.
We believe in miracles and mysterious spiritual phenomena, such as the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which transcend materialistic views of reality.

The cornerstone of Universalism is belief in universal salvation, the idea that there is no such thing as eternal hell or annihilation because God has planned the universe to produce a positive outcome for all sentient beings He has ever created. Hopeful prophecies in the Bible point to a future time of universal restoration and renewal (Jer. 31:38-40, Ezek. 16:53, Mat. 19:28, Acts 3:21), when even archetypal symbols of evil such as Sodom and the valley of Gehenna will be restored by God. The end of all things is a state of blessed reunion with God, the Creator -- not eternal separation, misery, or destruction (John 12:32, Rom. 11:36, 1 Cor. 15:22,28, Col. 1:20, Rev. 21:3-5). In the early Christian church, this was called apokatastasis -- the reconciliation of all things -- and it was recognized as an important teaching of the Gospel during the first few centuries of Christianity.

http://www.christianuniversalist.org/articles/universalsalvation.html

hben

March 15th, 2009, 1:24 am

I think I am holier than most preachers. Then again, I am a worse speller that most preachers, too. Come to think of it, I think my first statement should have read like this, "I think I am wholier than most preachers." But my wife has really been working hard trying to get my socks and underwear patched up, so people would stop calling me "Brother Wholier Than Thou". :razz: :))

Fig Tree

March 15th, 2009, 11:56 pm

From the Christian Universalist Association...

A thing missing from here is the key point in which salvation will not be given. REPENT. We can pretend to love God with good works, yet in the end, he knows our hearts and our motives. One cannot follow Jesus if he/she has not REPENTED and died to self. One can believe in him, one can believe all the signs and wonders that he did, you can even believe he is the Son of God, but unless one REPENTS and give up thier sins to Jesus, so he can take that person's cup of wrath on that cross so you can offer yourself as a clean sacrafice like Jesus to God.

TaylorW65

March 16th, 2009, 12:29 am

A thing missing from here is the key point in which salvation will not be given. REPENT. We can pretend to love God with good works, yet in the end, he knows our hearts and our motives. One cannot follow Jesus if he/she has not REPENTED and died to self. One can believe in him, one can believe all the signs and wonders that he did, you can even believe he is the Son of God, but unless one REPENTS and give up thier sins to Jesus, so he can take that person's cup of wrath on that cross so you can offer yourself as a clean sacrafice like Jesus to God.

Christian Universalists believe that all will eventually repent and God will give them all the chances people need.

Fig Tree

March 16th, 2009, 10:47 pm

Christian Universalists believe that all will eventually repent and God will give them all the chances people need.

What happens when they die or Christ returns before they REPENT?

WALKINGHADLEY

March 16th, 2009, 10:55 pm

The cornerstone of Universalism is belief in universal salvation, the idea that there is no such thing as eternal hell or annihilation because God has planned the universe to produce a positive outcome for all sentient beings He has ever created.

The bible which is the word of God is very clear: Their is eternal punishment for those who do evil and reject the Lord Jesus Christ. God has given all men the opportunity in this life to accept his forgiveness and make him Lord and Savior over their life. Since we are moral beings made in Gods image God left the choice up to us. Their is no automatic salvation at the end of the some tunnel. He who believes will be saved and he who believes not will be damned. The bible warns us of the doctrines of devils that will appear in the end times.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 16th, 2009, 10:58 pm

What happens when they die or Christ returns before they REPENT?

If anyone is dies who knew the Lord Jesus Christ and made him Lord and Savior while they were here on earth they are saved. Those who believed not in Gods plan of salvation and did not make Jesus Lord and Savior are lost. Anyone who is not saved when Christ returns is staying here and will suffer under the antichrist.

TaylorW65

March 16th, 2009, 11:54 pm

The bible which is the word of God is very clear: Their is eternal punishment for those who do evil and reject the Lord Jesus Christ. God has given all men the opportunity in this life to accept his forgiveness and make him Lord and Savior over their life. Since we are moral beings made in Gods image God left the choice up to us. Their is no automatic salvation at the end of the some tunnel. He who believes will be saved and he who believes not will be damned. The bible warns us of the doctrines of devils that will appear in the end times. So Christian Universalism is doctrine of the devil huh? I think that is getting close to a violation of the rules about being disrespectful of another's beliefs.

So, as you have said we are saved through Jesus dying and his resurrection, plus we have to believe in the doctrine?

Salvation is not a theology test we have to pass. Jesus said we have to trust him and that is based on a living relationship not a legalistic adherence to doctrine.

Fig Tree

March 17th, 2009, 7:59 pm

If anyone is dies who knew the Lord Jesus Christ and made him Lord and Savior while they were here on earth they are saved. Those who believed not in Gods plan of salvation and did not make Jesus Lord and Savior are lost. Anyone who is not saved when Christ returns is staying here and will suffer under the antichrist.

Actually my friend I was asking TaylorW65 the question as the article presented lacked truth. It is clear in the Bible what we are to do with the knowledge we have been given. But it is also clear that not everyone is given that knowledge and therefore judged a different way. The Law of God is written on the hearts of all men. Those who have been exposed to the knowledge of the Salvation through Christ will be judged on their rejection or belief of what he did for them. However, those who have not had that chance cannot be judged by that standard. The Bible in Romans 2 points to the judgment of what is written in the man's heart and the heart of that man will condemn or save him. All people who have accepted Christ as the Lord and Savior are written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will be part of the first resurrection and the second death has no power over them because they are justified to God by the blood of the Lamb who was slain for them as described in Revelation 20. Then after 1000 years the second resurrection will occur and all the dead will be judged. The books will be open and the Book of Life will again be opened. Why open even open the book if everyone that was part of the first resurrection is already in it? Perhaps it is to add the names of those people who never had the chance to REPENT, take up the cross and follow the Lord Jesus. Maybe they followed the law of their hearts, always trying to do the right thing and begging God himself for forgiveness when they failed. Does this person deserve to be thrown into the Lake of Fire? By passing judgment on these people, you yourself are passing judgment on yourself. It is God who is the judge, we in Christ, will reign with Christ after the first resurrection for a thousand years, and perhaps after the Great White Throne judgment, some others will be added to the Great Lamb's Book of Life.

Fig Tree

March 17th, 2009, 8:35 pm

So Christian Universalism is doctrine of the devil huh? I think that is getting close to a violation of the rules about being disrespectful of another's beliefs.

One should use scripture to decern whether a teaching is false or truth. I asked a question of what happens to a person who believes this doctrine you speak of and never takes the first step to know him whom they believe. What happens if they do not turn from sin (REPENT) before they die or Christ returns?

So, as you have said we are saved through Jesus dying and his resurrection, plus we have to believe in the doctrine?

He did die for us, yet the word believe is to know him. Many people believe in Jesus, even the demons, but do they having a loving serving relationship with him and others? What are their true motives for claiming to be a Christian? Are they using what Jesus did as a checklist for salvation or are they living the living Sacrafice for Jesus?

From Revelation 22:

11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Verse 14, it is an act by the individual, one must REPENT and be washed by the blood of Christ.

Salvation is not a theology test we have to pass. Jesus said we have to trust him and that is based on a living relationship not a legalistic adherence to doctrine.

Please reference the scripture you are reffering to. Also make sure it is used in context so as I may assertain the meaning that this doctrine you speak of is reffering to.

Jesus instructed us to follow his doctrine and the doctrine written in the old testament.

From the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

TaylorW65

March 17th, 2009, 8:50 pm

One should use scripture to decern whether a teaching is false or truth. I asked a question of what happens to a person who believes this doctrine you speak of and never takes the first step to know him whom they believe. What happens if they do not turn from sin (REPENT) before they die or Christ returns?

He did die for us, yet the word believe is to know him. Many people believe in Jesus, even the demons, but do they having a loving serving relationship with him and others? What are their true motives for claiming to be a Christian? Are they using what Jesus did as a checklist for salvation or are they living the living Sacrafice for Jesus?

From Revelation 22:

11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Verse 14, it is an act by the individual, one must REPENT and be washed by the blood of Christ.

Please reference the scripture you are reffering to. Also make sure it is used in context so as I may assertain the meaning that this doctrine you speak of is reffering to.

Jesus instructed us to follow his doctrine and the doctrine written in the old testament.

From the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

If you really want to understand what I believe or more about Christian Universalism you can explore this site.

http://www.christianuniversalist.org/

I also highly recommend these books.

Christian Universalism: God's Good News For All People
by Eric Stetson

The Golden Thread: God's Promise of Universal Salvation
by Ken R Vincent

My two personal favorites:

If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person.
by Philip Gulley (Author), James Mulholland (Author)

If God Is Love: Rediscovering Grace in an Ungracious World.
by Philip Gulley (Author), James Mulholland (Author)

And one more:

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
by John Wesley Hanson (Author)

Fig Tree

March 17th, 2009, 10:12 pm

Christian Universalists believe that all will eventually repent and God will give them all the chances people need.

I ask again, what happens to the person if they die before they repent? It is clear in Revelation that even with the devestation that will be on the earth, people will still curse God and not repent of their ways. The very act of his forbearence and longsuffering brings us to repentance, yet there are still many who do not repent. What will God say to them when they say I was going to say sorry but you caught me before I could (i.e. they died) What do the Universalists believe that repentence is? What do they teach?

This is a quote from the website:

"...some religious groups cling to outdated, highly detailed creeds that many of the members do not understand or fully agree with anymore."

When did the Bible become outdated? When did following the guidance of the Bible become outdated? What is the disagreement about? The ten commandments? Those were in heaven and God made Moses a copy to place in the Ark. The original is still in heaven as described in Revelation. Is it because something is too offensive to accept and deny one's selfish desires that makes it not fully agreeable?

another quote from the site:
"There is no such thing as "eternal" hell, despite what many Christians have been led to believe based on mistranslations of the Bible."

Where is this written? How have we been misled?
What is meant by the passage in Revelation 20:

10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is after the 1000 years and it seems like the words for ever and ever kind of mean eternity.

Another quote from the site:
"God does not decide to condemn some people to hell because they sinned too much or they chose the wrong religious beliefs"

This is unfortunately is incorrect, to make a statement like this drips with falsehood.

From Exodus 20:
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

Is this outdated? Can this really be misinterpreted?

This is what Paul spoke of in Romans 1,

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boa****l; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

From Revelation 22:

15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Jesus our Lord warned us of false Christ coming in his name. I will not condemn the site or the organization, but I cannot share the teachings that were revealed in the short time span I went through the site and bounced off the Bible. False teaching works like this, a little lies with the truth so it sounds good and pleasant to your heart. One may never reach the point of true repentence in the beliefs that are presented there and when trials of life rize up the foundation of sand that they built on will be swept away with the storm.

TaylorW65

March 17th, 2009, 11:56 pm

I ask again, what happens to the person if they die before they repent? It is clear in Revelation that even with the devestation that will be on the earth, people will still curse God and not repent of their ways. The very act of his forbearence and longsuffering brings us to repentance, yet there are still many who do not repent. What will God say to them when they say I was going to say sorry but you caught me before I could (i.e. they died) What do the Universalists believe that repentence is? What do they teach?

I believe Universalists teach that they go to a place similar to a place like purgatory that the Catholics teach where they have are cleansed of their sins.

This is a quote from the website:

"...some religious groups cling to outdated, highly detailed creeds that many of the members do not understand or fully agree with anymore."

When did the Bible become outdated? When did following the guidance of the Bible become outdated?

You do notice it said creeds and not the Bible as being out dated? There is a difference.

What is the disagreement about? The ten commandments? Those were in heaven and God made Moses a copy to place in the Ark. The original is still in heaven as described in Revelation. Is it because something is too offensive to accept and deny one's selfish desires that makes it not fully agreeable?

Universalists do not believe in Hell as a place of eternal punishment which we believe goes against the character of God.

another quote from the site: "There is no such thing as "eternal" hell, despite what many Christians have been led to believe based on mistranslations of the Bible."

Where is this written? How have we been misled? What is meant by the passage in Revelation 20:

10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is after the 1000 years and it seems like the words for ever and ever kind of mean eternity.

Many Universalists are not Biblical literalists so you're trying to argue for a literal interpretation of the Bible which i do not subscribe to.

Liberal Biblical theologians and Historians believe that the book of Revelations is a very metaphorical document written to a specific group of people at a specific time in history. It is not to be taken as a literal blueprint for the future.

Another quote from the site: "God does not decide to condemn some people to hell because they sinned too much or they chose the wrong religious beliefs"

This is unfortunately is incorrect, to make a statement like this drips with falsehood.

To my heart and ears it is a statement dripping with truth.

From Exodus 20:
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

Is this outdated? Can this really be misinterpreted?

Sure it can be misinterpreted. I think that scripture needs to be understood from the historical context of the period in which it was written. A Monotheistic understanding of God was a new concept in the world and this was written by a specific culture which was separating itself from polytheistic traditions. I don't think the ten commandments are from the mouth of God, they are from the hands of man.

I believe there is ONE God but there are as many understandings and concepts of God as their are human beings in the world. Just because my understanding of God may be different from yours and others does that mean I am literally praying to a different god? Or are we praying to the same God that we have a different perspective on?
This is what Paul spoke of in Romans 1,

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boa****l; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Those sound like the words of Paul and his understanding of the people of his day.

From Revelation 22:

15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Jesus our Lord warned us of false Christ coming in his name. I will not condemn the site or the organization, but I cannot share the teachings that were revealed in the short time span I went through the site and bounced off the Bible. False teaching works like this, a little lies with the truth so it sounds good and pleasant to your heart. One may never reach the point of true repentence in the beliefs that are presented there and when trials of life rize up the foundation of sand that they built on will be swept away with the storm.

So you bring it back to my original thesis. Fundamentalist Christianity doesn't stress a relationship with God/Christ they stress correct orthodox belief. And if anyone should stand before the throne of God without having the correct scriptural interpretations on their lips then God shall cast them into Hell.

You speak volumes about what you believe the character of God is in that practice.

And if you should hold an interpretation that you don't agree with then you're a false teacher and heretic.

Fig Tree

March 18th, 2009, 12:30 am

I believe Universalists teach that they go to a place similar to a place like purgatory that the Catholics teach where they have are cleansed of their sins.

Universalists do not believe in Hell as a place of eternal punishment which we believe goes against the character of God.

So based on your answers, I get the interpretation that from the Univeralists, even though they put Christian in front of the name, do not consider Christ as a Savior for our sins. I get this because they state that there is not eternal punishment in hell. If there is not a threat of eternal punishment, then why would you need a savior? In fact lets make it better and say that the bible is just a history book and there is good stuff in there such as the ten commandments, but they are so strict and it goes against what I feel the nature of God to be so he will just give me a pass in everything I do? Jesus did not come and abolish the Old Testament, every word in there is truth. Every word is treasure. If I am wrong and your belief is right, well I suppose I will spend some time being punished in the lake of fire for a while, yet if you are wrong, the consequences are much more severe.

TaylorW65

March 18th, 2009, 12:37 am

So based on your answers, I get the interpretation that from the Univeralists, even though they put Christian in front of the name, do not consider Christ as a Savior for our sins. I get this because they state that there is not eternal punishment in hell. If there is not a threat of eternal punishment, then why would you need a savior? In fact lets make it better and say that the bible is just a history book and there is good stuff in there such as the ten commandments, but they are so strict and it goes against what I feel the nature of God to be so he will just give me a pass in everything I do? Jesus did not come and abolish the Old Testament, every word in there is truth. Every word is treasure. If I am wrong and your belief is right, well I suppose I will spend some time being punished in the lake of fire for a while, yet if you are wrong, the consequences are much more severe.

Well, you could say all that and you would be wrong. :)

I guess you just don't understand Universalism. :)

You can read those books I recommended if you'd like.

Fig Tree

March 18th, 2009, 1:11 am

Well, you could say all that and you would be wrong. :)

I guess you just don't understand Universalism. :)

You can read those books I recommended if you'd like.

Well, that is why salvation is black or white, there is no middle ground. From what I read on the web site you recommended, regardless of what I believe, I will be with God eventually. I may be tormented for a while, but eventually God will bring me home because he loves me. Maybe I am reading to much into the doctrine presented on the website. I prefer to Love God now and demonstrate my love for him as he did for me. He came to the earth in the flesh lived a sinless life, hung on the cross and drank my sin cup of Godly wrath for three hours in the darkness, thne gave up his spirit, rose on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God the Father himself. I demonstrate to my loving God that I will turn from my evil ways, take up my cross, and follow the ways of Jesus. I come to my master as a living sacrafice washed in the blood of the Lamb, justified by faith in Christ Jesus. If after that he would like to toss me into the lake of fire for a while for getting it wrong, well so be it, Jesus showed us the way, and I will follow my Lord anywhere.

TaylorW65

March 18th, 2009, 1:56 am

Well, that is why salvation is black or white, there is no middle ground. From what I read on the web site you recommended, regardless of what I believe, I will be with God eventually. I may be tormented for a while, but eventually God will bring me home because he loves me. Maybe I am reading to much into the doctrine presented on the website. I prefer to Love God now and demonstrate my love for him as he did for me. He came to the earth in the flesh lived a sinless life, hung on the cross and drank my sin cup of Godly wrath for three hours in the darkness, thne gave up his spirit, rose on the third day and now sits at the right hand of God the Father himself. I demonstrate to my loving God that I will turn from my evil ways, take up my cross, and follow the ways of Jesus. I come to my master as a living sacrafice washed in the blood of the Lamb, justified by faith in Christ Jesus. If after that he would like to toss me into the lake of fire for a while for getting it wrong, well so be it, Jesus showed us the way, and I will follow my Lord anywhere.

Would you toss your children into a lake of Fire because they, being limited children, have the wrong beliefs? Why would you, a limited human being, not do that? Because you know that is evil. Yet, you never question why people believe God would.

You called your ways wicked and evil? Is that the way you see yourself? I don;t see human beings that way. Theologian Matthew Fox says we are the object of God's love. We are not the object of God's wrath. A God that has wrath on his creation is a God that doesn't understand the complexities of the human beings he has created.

I have a Master's degree in Mental Health counseling and I have learned so much of our human psyche is constructed in trying to survive in a physical world and having grown up young and vulnerable.

In other words I don't think it is a sin to be human. I don't think we're gods nor do I think were evil vile sinners deserving the wrath of an angry God.

I could go on and on. And these random thoughts cannot possible fully explain all I believe and I have experienced and gone through to shape where I am at today.

You can see me as a false teacher all you want. But that just makes me less of a fellow brother and human being in my opinion.

I have come to view God as pure Love and in him their is no evil nor darkness. Yet, I will also not turn off my God-given-mind and try to twist Fundamentalist theology, which makes God a cruel and evil tyrant in my opinion, to fit a literal reading of scripture.

I will not try to justify what more primitive historical cultures believed about God and mankind and believe for a moment I have to believe like they did (an impossibility given that our mindsets and world views are shaped by all the knowledge the world has learned since ancient times).

I will always error on the side of God being pure love, compassion and kind toward all of mankind.

But if in the end God is not as loving as I thought and I was wrong about his love then so be it.

Meriweather

March 18th, 2009, 5:15 am

Would you toss your children into a lake of Fire because they, being limited children, have the wrong beliefs? Why would you, a limited human being, not do that? Because you know that is evil. Yet, you never question why people believe God would.

You called your ways wicked and evil? Is that the way you see yourself? I don;t see human beings that way. Theologian Matthew Fox says we are the object of God's love. We are not the object of God's wrath. A God that has wrath on his creation is a God that doesn't understand the complexities of the human beings he has created.

I have a Master's degree in Mental Health counseling and I have learned so much of our human psyche is constructed in trying to survive in a physical world and having grown up young and vulnerable.

In other words I don't think it is a sin to be human. I don't think we're gods nor do I think were evil vile sinners deserving the wrath of an angry God.

I could go on and on. And these random thoughts cannot possible fully explain all I believe and I have experienced and gone through to shape where I am at today.

You can see me as a false teacher all you want. But that just makes me less of a fellow brother and human being in my opinion.

I have come to view God as pure Love and in him their is no evil nor darkness. Yet, I will also not turn off my God-given-mind and try to twist Fundamentalist theology, which makes God a cruel and evil tyrant in my opinion, to fit a literal reading of scripture.

I will not try to justify what more primitive historical cultures believed about God and mankind and believe for a moment I have to believe like they did (an impossibility given that our mindsets and world views are shaped by all the knowledge the world has learned since ancient times).

I will always error on the side of God being pure love, compassion and kind toward all of mankind.

But if in the end God is not as loving as I thought and I was wrong about his love then so be it.

The reason I am not a Universalist is the free will factor. In my opinion, it seems most Universalists believe in the end God will persuade or overcome resistance to Him. This would mean that God is in the process of creating puppets of all of us, and I do not believe that is the case.

If we choose things that are not God, the I believe we will be left to our own choices. It is our choices that will burn us, will be what people of God would consider "hellfire" but what the ungodly may well view as warm fuzzies.

I don't believe God needs all of us to love Him. He may be quite comfortable with those who turn away from Him, readily accepting this will always be so--but that He has plans for those who wish to follow in His ways.

TaylorW65

March 18th, 2009, 7:30 am

The reason I am not a Universalist is the free will factor. In my opinion, it seems most Universalists believe in the end God will persuade or overcome resistance to Him. This would mean that God is in the process of creating puppets of all of us, and I do not believe that is the case.

If we choose things that are not God, the I believe we will be left to our own choices. It is our choices that will burn us, will be what people of God would consider "hellfire" but what the ungodly may well view as warm fuzzies.

I don't believe God needs all of us to love Him. He may be quite comfortable with those who turn away from Him, readily accepting this will always be so--but that He has plans for those who wish to follow in His ways.

One of the reasons I am a Universalist is the belief that even our sin and rebellion elicits God's love and compassion. Read the parable of prodigal son.

It is not that God will overcome resistance, it is that even our rejection and resistance of God will not stop him from loving us.

Also, there is no literal eternal Hell to go to. All souls will return to God. There is no other place for us to go.

So it is not that God has created us as puppets or that some will be rewarded with heaven and some will be punished for all eternity in a literal Hell. That is a man made paradigm and out of character of a loving God.

God created us because he wants to show his love for us and to grant us life. For those who reject him I don't believe God stops the flow of love for that person and if they don't repent of that rejection before they die God will punish them for it.

That sounds so very human and not from the mind of a stable human to begin with.

Have any of us been rejected before? What is the mature things to do when we have been rejected? Christ has taught us to forgive them, to still love them (remember love is not a feeling). In the 12-step program we are taught that we are to pray for those we resent by asking God to grant them love, peace, joy, well-being and all of those positive qualities we want for ourselves. So now are we to believe that what is mature and healthy and good for us to do God has a different standard and he doesn't have to follow what he expects us to do?

Christ told us to have endless forgiveness for those who have wronged us (70x7), but God is allowed to let his forgiveness run out?

I have read that Christians have forgiven horrendous wrongs like abuse, rape, murder even when those who have done the wrong have not repented. Do we really believe that God requires from us something that he will someday not do?

So, what is in the character of God that Jesus modeled about Love and forgiveness? What does your common sense tell you?

I think many Biblical scenarios must be seen in their historical context in which they were written. They also must be seen in the light of our development and enlightenment as a species.

The OT paints a picture of a very human understanding of God. God is seen as a jealous lover, who loves and hates, who protects but also kills.

The Law as written in the OT allows for the stoning of adulterers, rebellious children to be stoned or sold into slavery and etc. But why are such acts illegal in the US? Because we as enlightened human beings know that to do those things is cruel and unusual punishment.

So are we now more moral than God? Or were those laws really from the pen of a human being who had a very limited and human understanding of God? My vote is for the latter.

I am not a Fundamentalist nor a Biblical literalist. Our understanding of ourselves as people and who God is has changed so much over the last 2,000 and 3,000 years. Yet we have set our feet in stone by still understanding and viewing God through a world view set by those ancient people 2,000 to 3,000 years ago.

To those ancient people it was alright to stone people to death for adultery. Even 500 years ago some Christians believed it was justifiable to burn heretics like myself to death.

I am not saying that we need to throw the Bible away. I am saying we need to understand it from the historical time the books contained within it were written and metaphorical principles it was trying to teach.

Our understanding of our world and ourselves and who God is has changed so much since then.

Meriweather

March 18th, 2009, 8:52 am

One of the reasons I am a Universalist is the belief that even our sin and rebellion elicits God's love and compassion. Read the parable of prodigal son.

It is not that God will overcome resistance, it is that even our rejection and resistance of God will not stop him from loving us.

Also, there is no literal eternal Hell to go to. All souls will return to God. There is no other place for us to go.

So it is not that God has created us as puppets or that some will be rewarded with heaven and some will be punished for all eternity in a literal Hell. That is a man made paradigm and out of character of a loving God.

God created us because he wants to show his love for us and to grant us life. For those who reject him I don't believe God stops the flow of love for that person and if they don't repent of that rejection before they die God will punish them for it.

That sounds so very human and not from the mind of a stable human to begin with.

Have any of us been rejected before? What is the mature things to do when we have been rejected? Christ has taught us to forgive them, to still love them (remember love is not a feeling). In the 12-step program we are taught that we are to pray for those we resent by asking God to grant them love, peace, joy, well-being and all of those positive qualities we want for ourselves. So now are we to believe that what is mature and healthy and good for us to do God has a different standard and he doesn't have to follow what he expects us to do?

Christ told us to have endless forgiveness for those who have wronged us (70x7), but God is allowed to let his forgiveness run out?

I have read that Christians have forgiven horrendous wrongs like abuse, rape, murder even when those who have done the wrong have not repented. Do we really believe that God requires from us something that he will someday not do?

So, what is in the character of God that Jesus modeled about Love and forgiveness? What does your common sense tell you?

I think many Biblical scenarios must be seen in their historical context in which they were written. They also must be seen in the light of our development and enlightenment as a species.

The OT paints a picture of a very human understanding of God. God is seen as a jealous lover, who loves and hates, who protects but also kills.

The Law as written in the OT allows for the stoning of adulterers, rebellious children to be stoned or sold into slavery and etc. But why are such acts illegal in the US? Because we as enlightened human beings know that to do those things is cruel and unusual punishment.

So are we now more moral than God? Or were those laws really from the pen of a human being who had a very limited and human understanding of God? My vote is for the latter.

I am not a Fundamentalist nor a Biblical literalist. Our understanding of ourselves as people and who God is has changed so much over the last 2,000 and 3,000 years. Yet we have set our feet in stone by still understanding and viewing God through a world view set by those ancient people 2,000 to 3,000 years ago.

To those ancient people it was alright to stone people to death for adultery. Even 500 years ago some Christians believed it was justifiable to burn heretics like myself to death.

I am not saying that we need to throw the Bible away. I am saying we need to understand it from the historical time the books contained within it were written and metaphorical principles it was trying to teach.

Our understanding of our world and ourselves and who God is has changed so much since then.

I understand what you are saying. Indeed, I am with you, up to a certain point. I believe God is indeed forgiving to those who turn to Him. You mention the Prodigal Son, which is a good example of what we both believe. However, I ask you this: Is there anything in the story that suggests had the son not repented and returned home that the father would have gone after him and somehow convinced, enticed, or tricked him into returning?

Further, we have the example of the angels who rebelled to consider. They knew God--were as close to Him as someday we hope to be--yet they rejected God and His ways.

I am not questioning God, His love, or His forgiveness. I am questioning the belief that all of creation will choose and embrace God. Too often the highest power any of us wish to answer to is one's self.

TaylorW65

March 18th, 2009, 12:22 pm

[quote]
I don't believe that would happen.
1Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
So, either the husband or the wife believing, bring into the home a holy environment by which the children or an unbelieving spouse are covered. That is my interpretation of that verse.

I don't agree with that either. The flesh is not saved as it can not enter the kingdom of heaven. So to be human and give into the temptations of the flesh is a sin. No one is perfect but you must be steadfast in your faith and let God's will take over.
1 Peter 2:11
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Everyone has a decision to make when it comes to personal beliefs. However I feel you must defend your religion when it is being attacked. If you are so strong in your convictions why are you attacking someone else's? Must you put down another religion to feel stronger about your own?

I don't see where I am attacking anyone's beliefs or putting them down. I thought it has been a very good intellectual exchange of ideas.

bobfisher

March 18th, 2009, 5:01 pm

So based on your answers, I get the interpretation that from the Univeralists, even though they put Christian in front of the name, do not consider Christ as a Savior for our sins. I get this because they state that there is not eternal punishment in hell. If there is not a threat of eternal punishment, then why would you need a savior?

To save us from our sins and the wages of sin which is death. So yes, without Christ saving us from our sins, or without a person repenting and turning to Christ with all his heart & soul, death would reign forever.

I believe Christ died for the sins of the whole world and I also believe there will come a time when all will repent and turn to Him.

In fact lets make it better and say that the bible is just a history book and there is good stuff in there such as the ten commandments, but they are so strict and it goes against what I feel the nature of God to be so he will just give me a pass in everything I do?

There is no "pass". Sowing leads to reaping.

Fig Tree

March 18th, 2009, 7:42 pm

To save us from our sins and the wages of sin which is death. So yes, without Christ saving us from our sins, or without a person repenting and turning to Christ with all his heart & soul, death would reign forever. I too believe this, the only sure way to escape the second death is to be written in the Lamb's Book of Life. To die to self and follow him, is the only way to gain life. Only then can we be assured of the blessing of the First ressurection.

I believe Christ died for the sins of the whole world and I also believe there will come a time when all will repent and turn to Him.
Your tagline from Revelation 22:17 is for all who wash their robes, where in the Bible does it say that all will repent and be able to drink? I defer back to Revelation 21:8 for those people. Revelation 21:6-7 makes the distinction between the people that chose to follow God and the people in verse 21:8 who have not. Is there another place that states that all will repent? There are plenty that state that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. I am relatively new in my faith and would like to know were it is written that all will repent and be saved as I can meditate on the verse or verses that contain it.

bobfisher

March 18th, 2009, 8:24 pm

Your tagline from Revelation 22:17 is for all who wash their robes, where in the Bible does it say that all will repent and be able to drink?

What words proceeds from God's mouth
1. Look unto me and be ye saved ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH
2. Unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Those words will not return void. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord TO THE GLORY of God the Father. Surely will one say "In the Lord have I righteousness".

Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

I defer back to Revelation 21:8 for those people. Revelation 21:6-7 makes the distinction between the people that chose to follow God and the people in verse 21:8 who have not.

Yes, there will be people outside the city, in the lake of fire. No unrighteousness will be allowed to enter the city.

Is there another place that states that all will repent?

See above.

Notice that while there are those inside the city and outside the city... that is not the end of the story. The gates of the city remain open day and night to "bring the glory and honor of the nations" into the city.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

You might read Isaiah 60 which is also about the Holy City to see exactly WHY the gates of the city remain open (verses leading up to Isaiah 60:11 which says "THEREFORE thy gates remain open") and what it means to bring the glory and honor of the nations (IMO spiriutal Gentiles) into the City.

Someone is being healed ongoing, month after month in the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The saints, within the New Jerusalem, do not need healing. They are already healed! Certainly they do not need healing month after month. Yet somone is being healed.

There are plenty that state that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. I am relatively new in my faith and would like to know were it is written that all will repent and be saved as I can meditate on the verse or verses that contain it.

You won't find it explicitly stated or everyone would already believe it.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter

Fig Tree

March 18th, 2009, 8:45 pm

Thanks Bob,

The verse from Isaiah seems to read like a command. If one were not to look to God and follow his ways, would he therefore not be saved? Thank you for the verse regarding the gates.

bobfisher

March 18th, 2009, 8:54 pm

Thanks Bob,

The verse from Isaiah seems to read like a command. If one were not to look to God and follow his ways, would he therefore not be saved? Thank you for the verse regarding the gates.

I agree, it is a command. But one that I belive God says will ultimately not return void. Take a look at Daniel 4. God brought His will to pass within king Nebuchadnezzar though he was not exactly cooperating with God. God first cut him down and IMO cast him into "the fire" of His judgment.

Yes, if a person does not look to God to be saved he will not be saved.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 18th, 2009, 9:43 pm

It is God who is the judge, we in Christ, will reign with Christ after the first resurrection for a thousand years, and perhaps after the Great White Throne judgment, some others will be added to the Great Lamb's Book of Life.

I agree that we will reign with Christ and that Christ alone has been reserved as the judge of all the earth. There is no place in scripture that speaks as names being added to Lambs Book of Life at a later date. The time to repent is in this life!

WALKINGHADLEY

March 18th, 2009, 9:53 pm

Your tagline from Revelation 22:17 is for all who wash their robes, where in the Bible does it say that all will repent and be able to drink? I defer back to Revelation 21:8 for those people. Revelation 21:6-7 makes the distinction between the people that chose to follow God and the people in verse 21:8 who have not. Is there another place that states that all will repent? There are plenty that state that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. I am relatively new in my faith and would like to know were it is written that all will repent and be saved as I can meditate on the verse or verses that contain it.

Jesus warned us that in the last days men would reject the truth and have itching ears. The bible is clear: Those who rejected Christ in this life are lost. Don't be fooled by these questionable doctrines that twist the eternal truths found in Gods word. Satan tries to twist verses in the bible to mean something completely different from what God was saying. To understand passages in the bible you have to understand the context in which it was said. My advice to you is to pray and ask God to give you wisdom and discernment. Try to read the entire bible (Just a chapter or two each day) cover to cover. Slowly over time God will open you eyes to his truths. Every time we read the word we see some nugget we missed on the previous read. Learning is a life long process. We will never know it all in this life but we must be open to learning and studying Gods truth.

bobfisher

March 18th, 2009, 10:27 pm

There is no place in scripture that speaks as names being added to Lambs Book of Life at a later date.

All have sinned.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

No name needs to be added. Those who turn to Christ and overcome the world receive a new name.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

bobfisher

March 18th, 2009, 10:28 pm

My advice to you is to pray and ask God to give you wisdom and discernment.

Amen to that WH.

TaylorW65

March 19th, 2009, 12:27 am

You keep twisting the words of those you are having an intellectual debate with. That is what I call attacking someone's beliefs. I feel that I can not believe in a loving God without also acknowledging his vengeance as well. They are one and the same God. My Lord and Savior. To even suggest that Christians can exist without a relationship with God is ludicrous. Being saved is sharing in the sweet Spirit of God.

I feel I am twisting the logic that I had heard from the fundamentalist side of Christianity which I have heard for years. I don't believe that God has a vengeful side. I cannot believe that. I have never said Christians can exist without a relationship with God. I fact that is one of my strongest beliefs. That is a primary foundation of my faith.
John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:9
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. That tells what kind of relationship I have as a Christian. I have no argument with you there.

I was not pushed into being a Baptist. I sought out guidance and help at the young age of 9. I then had to rely on the generosity of church members to provide me a way to church. This went on til I was old enough to drive myself as I was the only one in my household who wanted a relationship with God. I sought out the Lord and he answered me. I had a terrible childhood and he carried me through it. I am a healthy and mentally sane mother of three thanks to Him. I too had a very terrible childhood, two alcoholic parents, and I received a lot of physical abuse at school. I have had a relationship with God ever since I was very young and I believe he saw me through my trials.

But I didn't find mental health, happiness or well being while going to a Christian Fundamentalist church. I actually grew mentally worse. I was floundering in Church and those Goldy pastors tried to help me but they didn't know how. But thank God that he guided me to the people and places which could help me. That is why I fight against this need for correct beliefs. If I had spent my time being caught up in all the "religious" and apologetic aspect of the correct theology that Christians are supposed to believe then I would be dead right now.

So you can agree to disagree without dissecting and twisting another's religion to suit your own. Maybe I come strongly to His defense when I feel His word is questioned. But I love him and He loves me. I am sorry if I have offended your beliefs. That is not my intent. I only wish to represent my religion to the best of my abilities cause Lord knows I am not perfect.Some of the logic I attack may not be exactly what someone here has said, some of it comes from the logic and beliefs I had heard over the years in Christian Fundamentalism. You call what I do as twisting religion to suit my own religion. Well, it has been my experience that we all come to understand God in a certain way. Some don't believe in God at all, some people believe in Christianity from a Baptists, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Episcopal, Anglican. Dutch Reformed, Quaker, Methodist, Pentecostal, Universalist way. Some people are Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim or hundred of the other ways man has found religious expression.

The common human theme running through all of this is we all find peace, comfort, solace and connection to God or something higher than ourselves in our religious beliefs. So my "twisting religion," as you have called labeled it, to suit my own needs is truly something we all do. Many of us arrive at our own belief systems. There are many who believe like you do, and many who believe like I do.

I mean no offense to you or your faith. But I am as passionate about my beliefs and what makes logical sense to me and how I have come to experience God as you are about yours.

So just like Martin Luther I can say the same thing he did.

“Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen!”

TaylorW65

March 19th, 2009, 12:37 am

That is the absolute truth. Every 5 yrs or so when I fall upon a familiar book to read, I take away something new. It's almost as if what I am needing to hear jumps out at me at the point of life I need it to. Therefore it changes a little everytime. I tell people who are reading the Bible for the first not to expect to understand it all at first. You will be shown only what you are ready spiritually,to take from it.
However I don't think I will ever get through the many lessons I have to learn. Psalms and Proverbs consumes a lot of reflection to go thru. Too much good stuff to ingest at one time.

Would it surprise you to learn that even with my "unorthodox" Christian beliefs that I experience the same thing you do?

I have talked to many people on a spiritual path (not all of it Christian) who have reported the same experiences.

TaylorW65

March 19th, 2009, 3:33 pm

See that last sentence. It says forever. That to me says that God's protection is not just a shield to ward off evil but also a Champion to fight for righteousness if need be.I really have no disagreement there.

I am sorry for you. I also know how hard it is to grow up too soon in an unhealthy environment. Yes, it wasn't easy to grow up in that environment.

I grew up in a very small Baptist church where I learned of the unconditional love of my Father and that of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I am sorry you did not have that. For me it was my only solace.

If ever my parents couldn't find me, they knew to drive down to our church. The church never locked it's doors. They said God works 24/7 and the people should have a place to worship.
I would be at the altar in tears. Yet when I arose it was with a sweet peace that it would all right for He was with me.

I actually never told anyone in the church of my abuse though. I prayed about it daily and fervently for it to stop. How could he let me continue to be abused when I was doing my best to be worthy? Yet my abuser was untouched? I am sorry too for your pain and the abuse you suffered. I grew up Catholic and had mixed messages when growing up. I was taught of an angry God of vengeance and that I had to be good in order to escape his wrath. Yet I had some very good and loving Priests who tried to help our family out.

I came to a point where I thought God had forsaken me and I wailed to him with a heavy heart and He showed me that He was answering my prayers. Maybe not in the way I wanted Him to but He saw to it that I came out of the abuse alive and so much stronger.

I learned many valuable lessons during my childhood that have helped me many times since. I suffered through my trials and have a wonderful husband, 3 beautiful girls, and hopefully a lifetime of happy memories to outweigh the bad in my younger years.27 years ago when I was just finishing high school the abuse I suffered caught up with me and I ended up hospitalized with anxiety and depression. I too felt abandoned by God and even that I was being punished by God. But in truth this was the beginning of my healing and my spiritual journey. In hindsight it was a very big turning point in my life.

I am glad you are in a better place spiritually than you were. It is like night and day compared to where I used to be.

Unfortunately we disagree here. You need to have a shepherd to help guide you spiritually to the place God wants you. I have had many shepherds and teachers on my journey. As that old Buddhist saying goes. When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

When I was going to Fundamentalist churches I found many of the topics of Biblical study I was being taught really didn't have much relevance for my life. I was still struggling with depression and crippling anxiety. I needed more help than a Church could offer. I found a therapist who was an expert in dealing with people who had grown up in alcoholic homes, and she was a Buddhist! I also found a 12 step program that was for family members of alcoholics.

In both of these places I began doing the very difficult task of going on an inward journey of having to look within myself and to see the part I played in my problems. I had many feelings to explore and resolve and express.

I found that in Church They were not accepting of the feelings I had but I learned that in order for me to heal I need to face them and not try and cover them up.

That shepherd's job is to also make sure you understand and interpret the Bible the way God intended. You are coming from a premise which I no longer believe such as the Bible is the literal Word of God and there is only one right way to interpret it. But once I left Fundamentalist Christianity I found many more liberal Christians who helped me find meaning in the Bible from a more spiritual and metaphorical perspective. I also learned from my Liberal Shepherds the historical and Biblical scholarship that has been going on with scripture for centuries. In other words I have come to read the Bible in others ways besides just a literal interpretation.

I have known pastors that have learned the Hebrew language in order to read the Bible as it was first written to ensure that they are using a version of the Bible that has not lost much in translation. It would be easy for someone to misunderstand His word without someone to go to who can point you in the right places of reference.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.I have studied the works of Liberal Biblical scholars who not only read Hebrew and Greek they understand the historical and cultural context that each book of the Bible was written for. This was something I never learned while attending Fundamentalist churches.

oops, you lost me againWhat I was trying to say there was that some people believe that God is so much bigger than our thoughts that any concept we hold of God is bound to contain errors.

I would never dare speak for everyone. I only try to represent my religion in the only way I am supposed to. Anytime you twist your religion to suit your own needs..... well guess what? You are following your own will and not God's. They are not always one and the same. I have not always agreed in the direction He wants me to go. But He has never guided me astray. I have never been unhappy or worse off by following His will. I would just mess it up anyways if I were in charge of my life. :DAgain when you say this Anytime you twist your religion to suit your own needs..... well guess what? You are following your own will and not God's. you are coming from a perspective which i don't even agree with in the first place. So it is almost as if we are speaking two different languages. Just because I don't arrive at the same interpretations of scripture that you do, or that I have the same theology that you do, does not conclude that I am twisting religion and following my own will. I can understand why you see it that way when coming from what you believe. But you must understand that since I do not start from the same belief system that you have, from my perspective I am not doing that.

The 12 step programs teaches surrendering our will and lives under the care of God.

Step 3: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him" .

and

Step 11: "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."

The experience of myself in the 12 step program and those of others in the program who have a deep spirituality letting God and letting God take charge of our lives and having his will done in our lives does work miracles!

But I underscore the words as we understood him because the wisdom of the 12 step program understands that people have all different ways of understanding God but what is most important is that working these steps works no matter what our religious affiliation may be.

That is why my life has been more directed to experiencing God and the practicing of spiritual principles in my life rather than trying to have the correct beliefs. The truth I have come to know is not only found in the Bible, such truth is universal and found in many faiths. Truth is transcendent of religion. Meaning truth is not the sole property of one religion.

We all are unique individuals and we all have to walk a path in this life. I don't have expectations that we should all walk the same path because we are different and we all have different needs at different times in our lives. What may be right for your path may not be right for mine. That is why I believe that we cannot confuse the religious and spiritual path we walk as being synonymous with God himself. It is only a path and that is also why I believe that all paths do take us into that contact with God who is, in my opinion, larger than, transcendent of our religious paths. That is why I consider myself more spiritual than religious.

I see your path works for you and I don't want you to think that I think you should walk my path or agree with it. It may not be right for you.

You may not agree with any of this but hopefully you may understand me a little better and where I am coming from. :)

TaylorW65

March 19th, 2009, 6:04 pm

I just don't want you putting me in a stereotypical box that you have labeled due to your past religious experiences. I have seen people twist the scripture to read as they want it to suit their needs. That is what I mean when I say as God intended. I was taught of a loving God who understands we are fallible and fall short of the perfection of Job. That no matter what we do we can ask for His forgiveness. But we were also shown his wrathful side, not as a weapon of punishment if we stepped out of line though. That makes me sad to hear you were taught that.
My husband doesn't go to church with me as he was shown negative sides of the Episcapol as a child. I have to believe he is saved. I do pray I sanctify my home.
Some times good intentions are paved with too many mistakes. I am glad I have a healthy understanding of my religion so I can help nurture my children as they grow spritually.

I only hope I have shown you a differently side of the coin you were shown growing up. Believe that they are many more like me than you previously thought. God Bless you Taylor on your path to righteousness.

I have to admit I do at times put Fundamentalist in a stereotypical box. Please forgive me for placing you and others in that box and for any disrespect that came across. I saw your testimony in the other thread about how you came to your faith and I find it very admirable and a testament to God's love.

Peace and God bless you too. :)

WALKINGHADLEY

March 19th, 2009, 11:21 pm

I see your path works for you and I don't want you to think that I think you should walk my path or agree with it. It may not be right for you.

Straight is the way and narrow is the path that leads to life! Gods opinion is the only one that counts. We can understand his will thru studying his word and prayer.

TaylorW65

March 20th, 2009, 12:19 am

Straight is the way and narrow is the path that leads to life! Gods opinion is the only one that counts. We can understand his will thru studying his word and prayer.

I have prayed and studied the word and the path I am on is the one he has lead me to.

WALKINGHADLEY

March 20th, 2009, 10:50 pm

I believe that all paths do take us into that contact with God who is, in my opinion, larger than, transcendent of our religious paths. That is why I consider myself more spiritual than religious.

Say what? Sounds like all roads lead to heaven? Any belief that is contrary to the word of God is wrong. Jesus said he was the way the truth and the life. The bible says there is salvation in no other name. At the judgement there will be a great separation. Anyone who's name was not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. We all have an opportunity to accept the king of kings and Lord of Lords in this life.

As for being more spiritual than religious I hope you under the spirit of God. Not all spirits are from God. We need to be careful. Satan has his angels working mischief behind the scene's. The bible and the holy spirit work together.

TaylorW65

March 20th, 2009, 10:53 pm

Say what? Sounds like all roads lead to heaven? Any belief that is contrary to the word of God is wrong. Jesus said he was the way the truth and the life. The bible says there is salvation in no other name. At the judgement there will be a great separation. Anyone who's name was not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. We all have an opportunity to accept the king of kings and Lord of Lords in this life.

As for being more spiritual than religious I hope you under the spirit of God. Not all spirits are from God. We need to be careful. Satan has his angels working mischief behind the scene's. The bible and the holy spirit work together.

IThank you for sharing.

Fig Tree

March 21st, 2009, 2:47 pm

I agree that we will reign with Christ and that Christ alone has been reserved as the judge of all the earth. There is no place in scripture that speaks as names being added to Lambs Book of Life at a later date. The time to repent is in this life!

WH,

I fully agree that our only chance is during this life to Repent, acknowledge our evil ways to God and turn to his ways. I believe Christ showed us the way and that even though the Son was in the flesh, he did not sin against the Father. Christ is the only way for those that know or have even heard of what Chrsit has done. Yet there are still those who have not. There are still those, that by nature do the things that God has written in their hearts. Christ was the spotless blood sacrafice for the sins of all who turn to God (REPENT) from the foundation of the world to the end of the age. Is there a place that states that the persons, obviously before Christ and even those after Christ, are now dead in Christ and therefore part of the First ressurrection? If everyone that has turned to God is part of the first ressurection, then why does the Book of Life need to even be opened at the second? I am not saying that those otheres will get a chance to accept Christ at that point, yet they may or may not have chosen God the Father's path and not their own. My path is chosen, I have been exposed to Christ and his teachings, I have chosen to follow him and not deny him. If I tell someone else about him, and they chose otherwise, they are now making a decision to deny God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit and follow their ways. It would be easy to go to each person and ask the question...Do you know who Jesus Christ is? Many would say yes...Now ask do you know what Jesus Christ did for you? Some understand and want to know more, some understand and can't believe that they are worthy of the sacrafice he has made, some claim that there is no way he did it for me, some totally deny that he did it at all, some claim God is so loving that he will overlook our sins and give us a pass at the end or we can spend a little time being punished and come to him later (scary to believe this), some claim that he is not the only way (all paths lead to God). Once they have been asked that question, the line is drawn and their is not turning back. The truth is that he is loving and he did come to show us a straight and narrow path that only leads to heaven. While we were yet sinners, he provided the path, the way, the truth, and the life, in our Lord Christ Jesus. The key though is to turn to the light and walk...no run away from darkness into our loving Fathers hands.

TaylorW65

March 21st, 2009, 3:18 pm

WH,

I fully agree that our only chance is during this life to Repent, acknowledge our evil ways to God and turn to his ways. I believe Christ showed us the way and that even though the Son was in the flesh, he did not sin against the Father. Christ is the only way for those that know or have even heard of what Chrsit has done. Yet there are still those who have not. There are still those, that by nature do the things that God has written in their hearts. Christ was the spotless blood sacrafice for the sins of all who turn to God (REPENT) from the foundation of the world to the end of the age. Is there a place that states that the persons, obviously before Christ and even those after Christ, are now dead in Christ and therefore part of the First ressurrection? If everyone that has turned to God is part of the first ressurection, then why does the Book of Life need to even be opened at the second? I am not saying that those otheres will get a chance to accept Christ at that point, yet they may or may not have chosen God the Father's path and not their own. My path is chosen, I have been exposed to Christ and his teachings, I have chosen to follow him and not deny him. If I tell someone else about him, and they chose otherwise, they are now making a decision to deny God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit and follow their ways. It would be easy to go to each person and ask the question...Do you know who Jesus Christ is? Many would say yes...Now ask do you know what Jesus Christ did for you? Some understand and want to know more, some understand and can't believe that they are worthy of the sacrafice he has made, some claim that there is no way he did it for me, some totally deny that he did it at all, some claim God is so loving that he will overlook our sins and give us a pass at the end or we can spend a little time being punished and come to him later (scary to believe this), some claim that he is not the only way (all paths lead to God). Once they have been asked that question, the line is drawn and their is not turning back. The truth is that he is loving and he did come to show us a straight and narrow path that only leads to heaven. While we were yet sinners, he provided the path, the way, the truth, and the life, in our Lord Christ Jesus. The key though is to turn to the light and walk...no run away from darkness into our loving Fathers hands.

God will not overlook our sins he will forgive them. There is a difference.

So is the path to God the Christian Religion or is the path which Jesus spoke of "The Way" something bigger than just the box of the Christian Religion we have deposited Jesus in?

Is God a Christian, a Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or a Buddhist? Is Love, repentance, forgiveness, compassion and surrender only Christian practices and behaviors?

Is God going to accept our acts of surrender and repentance only if we have the correct cultural understanding of Jesus on our minds and hearts? Is God that legalistic?

You make it sound so cut and dried: you're either a Christian or your not. But Christianity is a man made label we have attached to the "Way of Jesus Christ."

The way of God which Jesus spoke of is turning from sin and our desire to do evil and living a life surrendered to God.

If a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, etc, denies his or her self and turns from sin in his life and turns to God in whatever way they comprehend God and desires to follow God in their life; isn't that the way Jesus spoke of?

All religious labels are man made definitions we human beings place on ourselves and one another.

I guess you should be grateful that you have been raised in a culture where Christianity has had a strong tradition. God forbid by a twist of fate through no choice of our own you were not born into a culture where another religious tradition was prevalent. Because our acceptance of our religion is purely about whether we repent of our sins or not right? Certainly people don't reject other religious teachings because of psychological and cultural influences they have through being raised in a culture where Christianity is not their cultural heritage. :rolleyes: :wall:

Fig Tree

March 21st, 2009, 5:17 pm

God will not overlook our sins he will forgive them. There is a difference.

Partially true, at least in the faith that I attest to, its not a free pass of forgiveness, its accepting the gift and sacrafice that he provided. In that acceptance, you must understand what the gift intails. If I were to give you a cure for a disease that you did not know you had, you would not trasure it in your heart because you do not know why I give it. Yet if I were to tell you the symptoms of the disease and describe the disease in you and how your life is hopeless without the cure, then you would accept the cure more readily. We must understand that we have a uncurable disease of sin, that will kill us, and God provided the cure.

So is the path to God the Christian Religion or is the path which Jesus spoke of "The Way" something bigger than just the box of the Christian Religion we have deposited Jesus in?

Partially true, he did speak of the way, his way which was God's way because Jesus was God in the flesh. He also spoke of the other ways, the wide path that leads to destruction. There is only one path to the door of heaven which is opened by those that know the master of the door, Jesus. Jesus did not speak of a religion, he spoke and showed us the way. The way of God and ascribed that every word in the Old Testament is true. Some religions ascribe the Old Testament as only applicable to the people of the old geberations described in the book, reducing it to methaphors and subjective meanings. It is was it is, the truth and part of the path that Jesus walked. If we want to follow correctly, we must study our OT and know that it is the truth for the narrow path.

Is God a Christian, a Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or a Buddhist? Is Love, repentance, forgiveness, compassion and surrender only Christian practices and behaviors?

God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three qualities of God, but all the same. Draw a triangle and write the word GOD in the center, on one side write FATHER, another write SON, and the last write HOLY SPIRIT. All are him and he is them, a side apart cannot be of him and he cannot be without them. Is that a Christian belief yes, is God a Christian, no. As for other religions, I believe that the Jewish and Muslims attest to a single quality of God and not all three, God the Father for the Jewish, and Allah who seems to be the same for the Muslims. In Buddhism we are teaching our souls so we can ascend to Divinity we can be Gods (sound familiar to the first temptation?) and we are given multiple lives for this teaching. Hinduism, with what I know of, seems to ascribe to all paths, and we chose the path that best suits our needs and desires for the time. If this god is not working, maybe I'll try this one, and if I still don't get it right, I can try again in the next life. Christians, Jews, and I believe Muslims do not believe in this, there is but one life, one chance.

Love, repentence, forgiveness, and compassion are qualities of God and can be experienced by us. We taint them with selfish desires to meet our needs vice his Glory.

Is God going to accept our acts of surrender and repentance only if we have the correct cultural understanding of Jesus on our minds and hearts? Is God that legalistic?

God is the judge not I. You ask if there is legalism involved. If there was no leagalism, why have law? Why have a Judge? Why have a punishment? Why have a Blessing? We have to accept in our hearts that it is not about us, its about him and his delightment.

You make it sound so cut and dried: you're either a Christian or your not. But Christianity is a man made label we have attached to the "Way of Jesus Christ."
Its not about being a Christian, that name was attested to those that have chosen to follow Jesus. The truth is what the issue is, Jesus showed the narrow path that leads only to salvation, so in that aspect since man has labeled those that follow Jesus as Christians, then if you follow Jesus then you take up that name, its not the claim of being a Christian that the point is, its the following of Jesus. It is no different for the origin of the name Baptist. This came originally from the name given to people who attested that you must repent and be immersed in water to truly be baptised. The term was called Anabaptist or to be re-baptised. They were persecuted for their beliefs and labeled as Anabaptist. The Ana dropped off and later became just Baptist. Christians were given the name not by Christians but by those who persecuted them for what they believed.

The way of God which Jesus spoke of is turning from sin and our desire to do evil and living a life surrendered to God.
Yes it was one of the first words Jesus spoke after the forty days and nights in the desert when he started his ministry in Matthew 4:

17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

If a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, etc, denies his or her self and turns from sin in his life and turns to God in whatever way they comprehend God and desires to follow God in their life; isn't that the way Jesus spoke of?.

God revealed himself in plenty of ways, in many in the OT, through the life of Jesus, and afterwards. To choose onother version is to deny who he is. He is the judge not I.

All religious labels are man made definitions we human beings place on ourselves and one another.

True, who are they serving though? If man creates the path, it is not the true path. We cannot work our way to heaven and we cannot be greater than our master.

I guess you should be grateful that you have been raised in a culture where Christianity has had a strong tradition. God forbid by a twist of fate through no choice of our own you were not born into a culture where another religious tradition was prevalent. Because our acceptance of our religion is purely about whether we repent of our sins or not right? Certainly people don't reject other religious teachings because of psychological and cultural influences they have through being raised in a culture where Christianity is not their cultural heritage.

I thank God everyday for the freedom that he provides us in America to even have these conversations. Yet I feel even in another culture that I would do the same. If that would envolve me being spit on, rejected, locked up, or even killed, my faith in the only one that saves is still there. The foundation that is there is from the Old Testament and the New Testament. I also not only thank God for the freedom, but for the fact that access to him and his truth is available.

TaylorW65

March 21st, 2009, 6:42 pm

[quote=Fig Tree;51230351]Partially true, at least in the faith that I attest to, its not a free pass of forgiveness, its accepting the gift and sacrafice that he provided. In that acceptance, you must understand what the gift intails. If I were to give you a cure for a disease that you did not know you had, you would not trasure it in your heart because you do not know why I give it. Yet if I were to tell you the symptoms of the disease and describe the disease in you and how your life is hopeless without the cure, then you would accept the cure more readily. We must understand that we have a uncurable disease of sin, that will kill us, and God provided the cure.

If it is not a free pass then what and where is Grace?

Partially true, he did speak of the way, his way which was God's way because Jesus was God in the flesh. He also spoke of the other ways, the wide path that leads to destruction. There is only one path to the door of heaven which is opened by those that know the master of the door, Jesus. Jesus did not speak of a religion, he spoke and showed us the way. The way of God and ascribed that every word in the Old Testament is true. Some religions ascribe the Old Testament as only applicable to the people of the old geberations described in the book, reducing it to methaphors and subjective meanings. It is was it is, the truth and part of the path that Jesus walked. If we want to follow correctly, we must study our OT and know that it is the truth for the narrow path.I agree that Jesus did not teach a religion but a way, a path. The narrow path is not one of understanding correct doctrine. The narrow path is actually one of application, of the letting go of our free will and to allow the will of God to run our lives and change our hearts.

Religion is a human construct which has risen out of specific cultures. I don't see that any specific cultural religious perspective as being superior to others.

People want to put Jesus and THE WAY in an exclusive religious box. I think that is wrong. I want to take Jesus out of the religious box human beings have put him and focus on The Way he taught and demonstrate that THE WAY is universal available to all no matter what cultural religious tradition they adhere to.

Religion is the lens with which we view God through. Many people mistake the cultural religious lens they use as God himself and forget that the lens is merely the vehicle and the tool we use. Then they take it a step further and say that their lens is the only correct way to see God as if they hold the patent on repentance, forgiveness, Love and surrender.

God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three qualities of God, but all the same. Draw a triangle and write the word GOD in the center, on one side write FATHER, another write SON, and the last write HOLY SPIRIT. All are him and he is them, a side apart cannot be of him and he cannot be without them. Is that a Christian belief yes, is God a Christian, no. As for other religions, I believe that the Jewish and Muslims attest to a single quality of God and not all three, God the Father for the Jewish, and Allah who seems to be the same for the Muslims. In Buddhism we are teaching our souls so we can ascend to Divinity we can be Gods (sound familiar to the first temptation?) and we are given multiple lives for this teaching. Hinduism, with what I know of, seems to ascribe to all paths, and we chose the path that best suits our needs and desires for the time. If this god is not working, maybe I'll try this one, and if I still don't get it right, I can try again in the next life. Christians, Jews, and I believe Muslims do not believe in this, there is but one life, one chance. Sure, there are different theologies no arguing that. But I don't see that as a problem. We are all individuals and we are at different levels of spiritual growth and maturity. We also belong to different cultures. So the lens (religion) we use are those that meet our needs at different times in our lives as we grow in Love and peace.

Love, repentence, forgiveness, and compassion are qualities of God and can be experienced by us. We taint them with selfish desires to meet our needs vice his Glory.Those qualities of God: Love, repentance, forgiveness, and compassion are experienced by people of all different faiths and religions. There is testimony after testimony from all faiths and all religions of God acting in peoples lives.

God is the judge not I. You ask if there is legalism involved. If there was no leagalism, why have law? Why have a Judge? Why have a punishment? Why have a Blessing? We have to accept in our hearts that it is not about us, its about him and his delightment.In what I meant by legalism is does God only accept Christians or are other people of other religious traditions his children too?

Its not about being a Christian, that name was attested to those that have chosen to follow Jesus. The truth is what the issue is, Jesus showed the narrow path that leads only to salvation, so in that aspect since man has labeled those that follow Jesus as Christians, then if you follow Jesus then you take up that name, its not the claim of being a Christian that the point is, its the following of Jesus. Ah, and here is the rub. It is human beings who are saying "join this religion."

What does it mean to follow Jesus? Become a Christian as defined by our cultural religious traditions? Or follow his example, follow his teachings, live your life as he did? Was Gandhi Christ like in the way he lived his life? Could he be considered following the way of Christ/

Or do you define him by a specific cultural lens? Does God only define us by the religious specific cultural lens or label we place on ourselves?

It is no different for the origin of the name Baptist. This came originally from the name given to people who attested that you must repent and be immersed in water to truly be baptised. The term was called Anabaptist or to be re-baptised. They were persecuted for their beliefs and labeled as Anabaptist. The Ana dropped off and later became just Baptist. Christians were given the name not by Christians but by those who persecuted them for what they believed. So the bigger question is, does God view us through the religious labels any human being puts on themselves?

I know we human being do! We have all people defined through the lens of religion. We will tag them, label them and judge them so we can know who fits where and who belongs where.

Then we turn around and think God does the very thing we do! He looks at us according to the cultural religious tradition we label ourselves or another labels us. I really don't believe that.

Yes it was one of the first words Jesus spoke after the forty days and nights in the desert when he started his ministry in Matthew 4:

17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."Yes, Jesus said repent, turn away from sin. He also said that the Kingdom of heaven was inside us. He sounds like a good Buddhist!

God revealed himself in plenty of ways, in many in the OT, through the life of Jesus, and afterwards. To choose onother version is to deny who he is. He is the judge not I.This is where you have replaced the religious cultural lens with which you define God as if it were God.

To chose another "version" is only choosing a different cultural lens to view God.

Do you think God is saying... "There goes Taylor W65 he's got a wrong idea about me from another culture so he's off my list. Take him out of the Lambs Book of Life. Only the Christian tradition has got it right!"

True, who are they serving though? If man creates the path, it is not the true path. We cannot work our way to heaven and we cannot be greater than our master. I believe all religious traditions are man made paths. I cannot subscribe to this belief that there is a true path and a false path. The path analogy is rather a weak metaphor. I like the lens metaphor as our way of viewing God. The religious lens we use helps human beings bring God into focus as much as possible. But because God is above and beyond the scope of our lens, or our religious tradition, to comprehend (meaning we can't allow our religious tradition to place God in a box) we need to realize that God is more than the concept of God we hold in our mind.

In other words, the concept that each of us has of God in our minds, God as we each come to understand God, is something we all do according to our cultural religious lens. But when we think our lens is the only right lens in which to view God, then God becomes compartmentalized, which leads to us being prejudiced toward the religious beliefs of others and actually creates and escalates the "my religion is the truth" mindset in which human beings often find themselves. Generally it is a mindset full of ego.

I thank God everyday for the freedom that he provides us in America to even have these conversations. Yet I feel even in another culture that I would do the same. If that would envolve me being spit on, rejected, locked up, or even killed, my faith in the only one that saves is still there. The foundation that is there is from the Old Testament and the New Testament. I also not only thank God for the freedom, but for the fact that access to him and his truth is available.My simple point is this: If you had been born and raised in Saudi Arabia, you would more than likely be a Muslim. I don't see people in the Western World being Christians because of some divine intervention. I see it more as a result of being raised in a culture where Christianity has a strong tradition.

MrDuffy

March 21st, 2009, 6:51 pm

Holy mackeral ! It's worse than we thought..........:cry::think::cry:

WALKINGHADLEY

March 21st, 2009, 7:09 pm

If everyone that has turned to God is part of the first ressurection, then why does the Book of Life need to even be opened at the second?

I was'nt aware that the Book of Life is to be opened when Christ returns for his church and we are rapured up to be with the Lord. Is this bibical? The bible does say that that books will be opened at the judgement and if anyones name was not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. However the judgement is after Christ comes. Some believe that all of us who are raptured will have to give an account of what we did after being saved for the Lord. This may happen between the time we are raptured and the Christ return seven years later.

The bottom line is we should not gamble with our soul and be ready for the Lord now!

TaylorW65

March 21st, 2009, 7:49 pm

bobfisher

March 21st, 2009, 7:50 pm

I was'nt aware that the Book of Life is to be opened when Christ returns for his church and we are rapured up to be with the Lord. Is this bibical?

I think he was referring to the second resurrection, not when Christ returns for His church.

Fig Tree

March 22nd, 2009, 12:14 am

I was'nt aware that the Book of Life is to be opened when Christ returns for his church and we are rapured up to be with the Lord. Is this bibical? The bible does say that that books will be opened at the judgement and if anyones name was not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. However the judgement is after Christ comes. Some believe that all of us who are raptured will have to give an account of what we did after being saved for the Lord. This may happen between the time we are raptured and the Christ return seven years later.

The bottom line is we should not gamble with our soul and be ready for the Lord now!

I am pretty sure that there are definately two ressurections at the end times. The first is the of those that have the profession of faith in Christ, he does not need to open the book because he will separate the sheep and the goats at the end like he said he will do at the end of Matthew 25. I go back to my original question, that I humbly ask because I do not know the answer, why open the Book of Life for the judgement of verse 12? They are judged according to what they had done, what was written in their hearts, and held accountable for what they knew. We in Christ are of the first ressurection and will be separated by Jesus himself in the end. Why even have the Book of Life opened at this time? Is it to show theit names being blotted out, added, or just show them a book that they would have wished to be in before being thrown into the lake of fire. Or does it mean that only those that have been Martyred in Christ will be of the first ressurection and all others part of the last, in which it would be prudent to open up the Book of Life.

Revelation 20:

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

and as for the Book of Life being opened...

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.