Why do feel schools are failing?

[Army of 1]

A bit of a twist in the question. I would like to know not why you think the schools ARE failing but what information you used to decide that schools are failing?

is it media?
is it scores?
is it personal experiences?

[sgdp]

Good question.

I've used scores, personal experience, comparisons to other countries, and history. I read a very good book a while back called "Imperfect Panacea: American Faith in Education". It studied education up until around 1960, when it was written. Very, very insightful.

[ChrisSpencer]

A bit of a twist in the question. I would like to know not why you think the schools ARE failing but what information you used to decide that schools are failing?

is it media?
is it scores?
is it personal experiences?

I look at who the youth resoundingly elected for the White House.

Schools haven't failed; failing assumes that at one point in time they were actually good.

[lawandorder]

President Obama has had nothing to do with the "failing schools". He is not responsible for NCLB. So, you must have meant George Bush.

[page017]

My biggest causes for concern come from comparing the differences between what it was like when I went to HS, and what things are like now. I only graduated 11 years ago, and now I am a HS teacher. Granted, I went to a suburban school that was one of the tops in the area, and now I'm at a rural school, which is one of the worst in the area. But it's frustrating to see the things that we knew how to do right 15 years ago, that we are now getting wrong. It seems like for every good rule/policy change that comes through the pipe, there are 3 or 4 bad ones. At the same time, I know that a motivated student, or a student with motivated parents can still get a very good education at the school I work at now. Probally even better than the one I got, just based on the specialty programs/opportunities that are out there now. But it's frustrating to see how few push themselves to take advantage of the opportunities.

[F_Rat-46]

President Obama has had nothing to do with the "failing schools". He is not responsible for NCLB. So, you must have meant George Bush.

I look at who the youth resoundingly elected for the White House.

Schools haven't failed; failing assumes that at one point in time they were actually good.

I don't think he was blaming OBAMA for the failing education system and he didn't mean Bush either. This has been slowly falling apart since the 60's.

[ChrisSpencer]

President Obama has had nothing to do with the "failing schools". He is not responsible for NCLB. So, you must have meant George Bush.

No,

What I meant was exactly what I wrote. Young people voted resoundingly for Obama. The schools have failed, they obviously are not teaching objective research, criticism, and critical thinking.

[ChrisSpencer]

I look at who the youth resoundingly elected for the White House.

Schools haven't failed; failing assumes that at one point in time they were actually good.

I don't think he was blaming OBAMA for the failing education system and he didn't mean Bush either. This has been slowly falling apart since the 60's.

You nailed it, 100%.

[Old_Mil]

A bit of a twist in the question. I would like to know not why you think the schools ARE failing but what information you used to decide that schools are failing?

Pretty much every time a comparison is made between third world graduates and american public school graduates...our kids end up looking like illiterate fools...and third world schools accomplish this on a budget that is maybe 10% of what we throw at our public school system.

[DinPA]

My biggest causes for concern come from comparing the differences between what it was like when I went to HS, and what things are like now. I only graduated 11 years ago, and now I am a HS teacher. Granted, I went to a suburban school that was one of the tops in the area, and now I'm at a rural school, which is one of the worst in the area. But it's frustrating to see the things that we knew how to do right 15 years ago, that we are now getting wrong. It seems like for every good rule/policy change that comes through the pipe, there are 3 or 4 bad ones. At the same time, I know that a motivated student, or a student with motivated parents can still get a very good education at the school I work at now. Probally even better than the one I got, just based on the specialty programs/opportunities that are out there now. But it's frustrating to see how few push themselves to take advantage of the opportunities.

Bingo! Schools and teachers have not failed. Parents have failed. Where are the motivated parents?

[janer]

One reason? Because this is the kind of issue they get embroiled in:
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/179/story/420916.html

[PuckHappy]

Other countries require that ALL students learn to read, write and speak english.
The Los Angeles Unified School District allows 93 different languages to be spoken in place of english. The money alone that goes to print everything in all 93 languages takes away from paying teachers and providing for those that really want to learn.

[Unkle Mike]

I teach high school, too. I teach in a fairly rural area, where a lot of the adults never finished high school. Physical labor -- farming, logging, and working in the brickyard -- are the most common jobs. Cooking Meth, collecting disability checks, and having babies are the most common income sourse, though.

While we have some exceptionally bright students in our school and many who do well academically, about half of our student population does not receive much, if any, support from home. The parents need to be held accountable before anyone comes after the teachers.

We try. We try like hell to get these kids to do anything. We incorporate video clips, hands-on projects, real-world simulations, and whatever else we can do to get these kids to learn. Unfortunately, they prefer to play with their cell phones or sleep or any of a number of other things. When we confiscate cell phones, the parents get irate at US. I have had harrassment charges filed on me because I kept waking up a student who slept in my class everyday. Where is the common sense? Where is the responsibility? What do they get from home?

We feed these kids breakfast and lunch, we clothe them when necessary from out Youth Service Center, we try to teach them about the things they will need to know in life, we even buy them Christmas gifts through the YSC. What, besides DNA, do these kids get from thier parents?

I realize teachers need to be held accountable for what happens in their classrooms, but everything that takes place outside of the school building is completely out of their control. Before you try to slough off all responsibility for the next generation onto our "failing schools", take a look at the failing parents and failing society first.

[RWReaganfan]

Pretty much every time a comparison is made between third world graduates and american public school graduates...our kids end up looking like illiterate fools...and third world schools accomplish this on a budget that is maybe 10% of what we throw at our public school system.

The only fools are those who take those comparisons at face value and never look at the details.

Those kids from India taking the test didn't just slide off the back of an elephant hauling logs through the jungle. Those kids are in elite private academies that have more resources, parental involvement and most importantly, RESPECT for teachers than we could ever dream to have!


Do you honestly think India and these other Third World countries "waste" their resources on a kid with numerous learning disabilities and have a crack whore mother on welfare?

We do! That's why I am proud to be an American and a teacher!
Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges and see how we stack up!

[Army of 1]

I disagree somewhat with alot of what is posted.
I don't think the system is actually failing but there are some problems.
I don't think these problems are any different than 50 years ago.
You have to understand that 50 years ago people didn't finish 6th grade and they went out and worked for a living. Not a great thing but it also helped insulate those that were in school from those that had no desire or reason to be there.
Parents need to be accountable, so do the kids and teachers. The leaders of education also have to realize that they are handcuffing schools with rules that keep kids from being retained, disciplined, suspended, etc.
Most have decided that our schools suck because of test scores and media coverage. If you only highlight the bad, of course everyone will feel that things are awful.
I will tell that these test scores have little to do with how much kids have been educated. They are actually built to produce failure rather than success.
When I read a person's account of what happened at their school and hear their complaint, I can't help but feel that they are indicting every single school and so are the people that read them especially ones that do not have current experience with schools. These problems or scenarios are not going on everywhere all the time. Heck, if were not at my school and only read the media's feeling I would think that people were killed and no one their could even read. Take things you read with a grain of salt.

[PhantomPholly]

Do you honestly think India and these other Third World countries "waste" their resources on a kid with numerous learning disabilities and have a crack whore mother on welfare?

We do! That's why I am proud to be an American and a teacher!
Let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges and see how we stack up!

Not sure you intended it this way, but I'll point out that it is this attitude that we should do things "no matter the cost" that insures that our children will be debt-slaves. It is fascinating that when I ask Liberals how much of our economy we should spend for whatever subject we are discussing, their answer is always the same: "Whatever it takes." Yet, "Whatever it takes" often exceeds our entire GDP by several orders of magnitude (translation: It simply isn't possible, even if you enslave everyone). And so, in trying to do the impossible they will happily damn future generations to sub third-world poverty.

If that same money were spent on providing free birth control, and the bonus money for extra kids were removed, then just maybe there wouldn't be so many crack babies needing exorbitant spending just to make them capable of digging a ditch.

But then, if we did that there wouldn't be as many people who vote Democrat, either....

[archangelo]

No,

What I meant was exactly what I wrote. Young people voted resoundingly for Obama. The schools have failed, they obviously are not teaching objective research, criticism, and critical thinking.

Actually, the public school system has succeeded in achieving its real goal -- the creation of a populace so uneducated that it is capable of electing and supporting a government that can only thrive on the gullible.

[janer]

The increasing demands upon taxpayers to fund schools and staff, including benefits for staff that the taxpayer has to fund for himself/herself make it very difficult for a family to have one parent in the home to supervise the student after school, or to give any meaningful help with homework. The encroachment of negative popular culture has a more significant impact, because it's more prevalent and because students may spend as much or more waking time out of school than in it.
Add to this the ACLU, the diversity agenda, et. al which make it very difficult for schools to enforce a standard of behavior - all is acceptable, he/she doesn't know any better, freedom to express himself/herself, etc.
When I was in grade school, we had a report card grade for "Deportment" - a letter grade. How we spoke, behaved and interacted mattered. We had a dress code. And schools could send you home for infractions, and could expel the troublemakers. The school day was longer. The language spoken in the classroom was English, and the subject "English" was English grammar, usage, spelling and punctuation; there was a separate class for "Reading" (literature).
The standards you set are the standards students will take with them into the real world; back in the day, the standards were commonly agreed upon by the parents and the schools - now the schools have co-opted parenting, setting standards, defining conduct as it relates to morality - i.e., sex and pregnancy, drugs and alcohol, speech codes, religion - and while they fight it out, the kids who are out of school by 2:10 PM (in my district) are subject to the questionable morality of the internet, cable TV, DVDs, phone/texting and the other niceties of popular culture.
Why are kids poorly educated today? Whose job is it to school them? Whose job is it to see that they have a strong command of written and spoken English, knowledge of fundamental mathematics and economics, reading comprehension, an understanding of their national history, civics and the Constitution, of geography, arts and literature, possibly supplemented with foreign languages, music, business? If that is what's missing in the graduating student, the one whose job it was to teach it is the one who failed.

[Polkfan]

No,

What I meant was exactly what I wrote. Young people voted resoundingly for Obama. The schools have failed, they obviously are not teaching objective research, criticism, and critical thinking.

I know it's shocking to you guys, but not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as you.

[KyanWan]

Connecticut - Town of Enfield -

The test scores are low. There are 8 schools in this town - class sizes of 15 children.

They've got plenty of teachers. They suspect they can close down 2 elementary schools ( thanks economy ) and slash the budget by that much. Note here: the teachers who "care so much about the children" won't take a pay cut or wage freeze to save their coworkers jobs.....

Now, if the class sizes are not the problem - and the number of schools are not the problem ...

Just what is the problem in the state that pays its teachers the 3RD HIGHEST SALARY in the nation?

It's the teachers.

I ask the kids in my family - "So, did you learn about WW2? How about the Constitution? Did you learn about the Revolution? The Civil War? Anything?" ....

"Well, we learned about AFRICA, and Asia, and ... "

Um... ok. Maybe they can do a research project on the similarities of Mugabe and Obama.

Forget sex ed - I want kids to be forced to learn the Constitution - and US history.

Plus - teach kids how to use computers? What kid doesn't know how to use a computer?!?! Produce this kid! I'd like to see him (or her)!!

- Schools waste money.
- Schools have substandard teachers (*some, definitely not all.)
- Teachers are not PUNISHED for poor-performance.
- Teachers are not REWARDED for excellent performance.
- Teachers and their unions can be brutal, greedy, and inflexible. (A CT teacher makes DOUBLE the average salary of a Southern teacher.)

PLUS - this one big plus - a huge plus - not in every school - but some - especially urban ones....

The government has neutered or eliminated parents, and family is discouraged. Our schools -especially urban ones- have students who lack parents or a family. What are these schools doing all day? Disciplining children - and attempting (failing) to make a productive member of society out of these kids. It won't work. It just can't. Children should be disciplined by their parents and family -NOT- by the government or school. In these places, it's a deeper issue than just the school itself.

[janer]

And you know - I don't mean to jump in a 3rd time - part of the problem can be detected in the question: Why do you feel schools are failing? The decline in schools, the shift away from solid education to social agenda can probably be dated to the point where the verb "think" was replaced by the verb "feel".

[RickL]

I have been teaching in the NYC public school system for almost 20 years. I can tell you that from my perspective, both the popular "causes" and "cures" regarding the "failing" school system amounts to little more than cliche and hyperbole. The liberal answer of throwing more money around is as off the mark as the conservative union bashing. When we get right down to it, all each side does is create a straw man in order to get elected and tear him down. Life magazine did a whole series in the 1950's about the breakdown of our public schools and how the Russians are out-educating us. If you read them, and block out the date, you would think you are reading an essay from 2 days ago. Now, we look at the 1950's as the "golden age" of education. Now, we "compare" ourselves to other countries, some of which do not even allow girls to go past elementary school. This comparison is probably, next to the evil teacher unions, the biggest straw-man going.

The problems are not systemic. Nor are they caused by the evil teacher unions (which, I have become convinced might be the only group left which actually cares about children). I could write a book on this, but for my purpose here I will just simply say that our problems are societal. Plain and simple. Our schools are simply a reflection of the society they serve.

The problems we face now, which many of us trace back to the 60's, are a result of the breakdown of the family unit, the creation of a relativistic society and the politicization of our schools. As Bob Putnam points out in his book "Bowling Alone", membership in the PTA dropped precipitously in the 1960's and has continued on a steady decline ever since. Since the West Virginia Textbook Strike, what has passed for "parental involvement" in their child's education has simply been a once in a lifetime protest over cultural issues. Our schools have become ground-zero in our culture wars. Issues like busing, prayer, Pledge of Allegiance, bring parents out only to see them retreat as soon as the issue becomes tiresome. Not that these issues are not important, but they pale in comparison to a simple nightly family dinner.

The breakdown of our moral compass as a society has led to the problems in education which most bother conservatives. The schools did not create these things, they inherited them. They do the best they can. I don't often see a "bad" teacher; at least not as much as I see bad parents. But the solution is not to abandon a "failing school" and disperse its students to schools in other neighborhoods in the name of "choice". Once we do that, we create schools with not only a lack of family values but one with a lack of neighborhood identity. All these solutions, whether it is reducing class size, spending more money, giving "choice" or installing a business model, are just ways for politicians to avoid the real issues. A fifty percent divorce rate, forty percent of children being born out of wedlock, a society that goes to church less and less often, in tact families where both parents work allowing a generation with unprecedented access to outside influence to have little or no parental supervision; this is why our schools are "failing". But mostly it is the passing off of responsibility by these parents to politicians on both ends who promise magic pills designed to accomplish what a parent used to have to work for, is the cause of the "problem".

When politicians, conservative and liberal, promise to fix your kid for you, only disappointment can follow. Charter schools, vouchers, money or any other panacea is a waste of time unless we go back to the days where children came first and discipline and basics were the norm. Here in New York, where conservatives are so happy that we have a mayor who instituted testing and beats up the union, no one bothered to look as grammar, spelling and basic math have literally become a no-no. Do you realize that a "bad" teacher can be disciplined for giving a spelling list? Do you realize that a "bad" teacher can be disciplined (I saw one actually get accused of corporal punishment) for making kids memorize the times table? Most people will never know these things because they are content if they are liberal to see an increase in spending and content if they are a conservative to see the teacher union get kicked around.

Education is failing us because our society is in steady decline and those who "pay attention" only do so when a political principle is being challenged.

Blessings,

Rick

[markdido]

Bingo! Schools and teachers have not failed. Parents have failed. Where are the motivated parents?

I would have to lay blame both on parents and school boards / administrations, not so much teachers.

School boards like new, bright, shiny things so when the "latest thing" in education comes down the pike, they jump on it like a dog on a dreamsicle. Things such as "fuzzy math" and "whole word" reading. Both failed miserably, at least here in Florida, so we're back to "real math" and phonics. Both tried and true methods.

Parents must also take an active role in their kids homework. Make sure they understand the content. Make sure they develop good homework / study habits at an early age. It will serve them well in later grades.

[highroller]

Bingo! Schools and teachers have not failed. Parents have failed. Where are the motivated parents?

They're sending their children to private schools.

[Talk2Bill]

I believe it had much more to do with accuracy in how the stats are taken.

If the data was all taken the same way then the US would move WAY WAY up the chart.

[teresamerica]

We need to stop caving into special interest groups on both sides of the aisle and start thinking about the students who need a GOOD EDUCATION. Vouchers should not be opposed by anyone. This gives opportunities to both low-income income families as well as wealthy families. Something in public schools needs to change, instead of just keeping on pouring money into a failed system. Have the public schools declined because of no prayer aloud in schools and therefore morality is lacking?

[Lisaren]

As education became a right instead of a priviledge it became less and less respected. Once everyone was expected to go to school and learn to read, it became a punishment not a reward. Something you are made to do is no where near as valuable as something you want to do. What happens is schools in almost anywhere else in the world? You don't want to be here - they don't say your parents should raise you better, they kick you out. Do they take their best and brightest and put them in the classroom with Johnny clown or Johnny can't sit still today? Nope, Johnny is not tolerated. But what will Mommy and Daddy do with Johnny? Not the school's problem. Their problem is educating the children who actually want it. Don't want it, good, but don't disrupt those who do. If we took a hard line and actually expected behavior from the kids or they were sent home, even in Kindergarden, guess what. When Mommy and Daddy had to make alternative day care arrangements and it bit into their pocketbook, things would change and change quick. Schools are there to teach math, language, reading, history, and science. Music, art, and physical education are also important. Proper behavior is to be expected and poor behavior is not to be tolerated. Stop the stupid parental lawsuits for Johnny being damaged because he can't behave or the laws that state if he can't be kept in the classroom you must send a tutor to the house. Set a standard, if he can't behave, send him home.
(Please do not take offense to the he/him. It could just as easily be replaced with she/her.)

[Marleysdaddy]

No,

What I meant was exactly what I wrote. Young people voted resoundingly for Obama. The schools have failed, they obviously are not teaching objective research, criticism, and critical thinking.
People can engage in critical thinking and arrive at a conclusion other than the one at which you arrived.

[coventry]

No one seems to have mentioned state- or county-approved curricula. Most teachers are handcuffed by the demands of curricula they had no hand in creating.

Why haven't many students learned and analyzed important elements of American history after WW2? Because the social studies curriculum devotes 3/4 of the year to studying pre-20th century American history.

Why aren't students equipped to deal with literature and writing in the 21st century? Because literature classes bogs down in studies of American Puritanism, Huck Finn, and similar books which, though powerful, are becoming increasingly hard to connect to our world.

Who writes the curricula? Veteran teachers and administrators: some of whom might be progressive and willing to try new and innovative texts and approaches, but many of whom are not.

Who approves the curricula? Ultimately the Central Office/BOE and the community - -any of whom can object to any unit or text in a particular course.

Don't forget about the lack of and mistrust of technology. School systems routinely ban youtube because of bandwidth; block access to blogs and to twitter, even though students have been on these for years, and see PowerPoint in the classroom as an effective use of tech.

[LoneStarHero]

The problem are parents who automatically take the side of their children and breath down the neck of every teacher their child has.

If parents don't respect the authority teachers, why the hell should children?

[Voxpopuli]

They're sending their children to private schools.

I am sure your post was done with tounge-in-cheek. You have a point. While it is the duty of a parent to ensure that their children are doing homework and learning good study habits this can only go so far with a poor curriculum. How much does a child benefit when he is being instructed to study for his standardized testing.

I've seen this first hand recently. I spent a year taking care of my niece who we had in public school. She is about the same age as two of my boys who attend private school. She had to follow the same study habits of my children but it was like light and day having to reinforce the curriculum at home.

I spent most of the time with my children helping them learn new information. With my niece a majority of it was spent helping her prep for her standardized tests.

[Suicide Season]

I don't believe schools are necessarily failing because of what is being taught or how it's being taught. I believe a lot of it has to do with the decrease of ambition in students to fully commit to learning.

[The Kid]

Your children's private school funding is not based upon test scores. With all the requirements state and federal governments place upon school systems the public schools have little ability to control their curriculum. If the test scores do meet certain levels funding will be cut costing the tax payers of that district even more money because as long as a public school is open it will have fixed costs to remain open. Private schools are not dependent upon meeting state and federal standards and funding. The success of a public school is not limited to a few sound bites.

[DaveShaver]

You be talking wack.

The product of our school system is rampant in the streets.

The Department of Education and the Teacher's Unions have lowered standards so far, the only kids who have a chance in public schools are those kids who have parents who know how to parent.

Education in the United States is so poor that even college graduates are illiterate.

Our diplomas are almost as worthless as our federal reserve notes.

[RickL]

You be talking wack.

The product of our school system is rampant in the streets.

The Department of Education and the Teacher's Unions have lowered standards so far, the only kids who have a chance in public schools are those kids who have parents who know how to parent.

Education in the United States is so poor that even college graduates are illiterate.

Our diplomas are almost as worthless as our federal reserve notes.

Can you give us one concrete example of when and how teacher unions "lowered standards"?

Regards,

Rick

[amerie]

Oh my Gosh! This is it in a nutshell. I hear you Lisaren. I hate to see good teachers beat up because they are trying to teach a certain curriculum and because of so many behaviors in the classroom . It doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach the 3 R's. It takes patience and a desire to teach. My grandmother ( many years ago) taught primary school with only a couple years of college. In her career she did her part to produce some good doctors, lawyers, teachers, good citizens. You could be kicked out of school for poor behavior. So many kindergarten students start school now raised on McDonalds and a ton of videos they buy everytime they go to wal-mart. Some use a spoon and fork awkwardly because they eat mostly fast-food, fingerfoods. They haven't been taught basic social skills, like how to act in public. So many spend too much time with "educational computer programs" ( *rolling my eyes) and videos. Too many of them that just lack parenting.

[hremom]

Why are schools failing? It starts with the home life of the students. Too many unstable homes, with parents not doing their job as parents. Not reading to their kids, not teaching them how to behave, not discipling when they misbehave but instead making excuses for misbehavior.

Then we send them to school where we've also handcuffed the teachers so they can't discipline misbehaving kids either. I've seen students curse, hit, kick and bite other students and teachers. When the parents are called they make excuses "Oh, little Bobby is just tired." "He's frustrated because his dad left." "I've had to work alot lately and he's just acting up."

Well, how about doing without the cell phone and cable tv so you can work a few less hours and spend them with little Bobby??

Add to all this the liberal feel good programs that have been shoved down our throats for 20 years and the teachers are spending most of their day dealing with behavior problems and building self esteme instead of teaching reading, writing and math and science.

[Polkfan]

They're sending their children to private schools.

Ooo, a class warfare argument.

[Polkfan]

Why haven't many students learned and analyzed important elements of American history after WW2? Because the social studies curriculum devotes 3/4 of the year to studying pre-20th century American history.


As it should be, because it's almost impossible to teach recent events objectively.


Why aren't students equipped to deal with literature and writing in the 21st century? Because literature classes bogs down in studies of American Puritanism, Huck Finn, and similar books which, though powerful, are becoming increasingly hard to connect to our world.


What alternatives would you suggest? John Grisham? Tom Clancy? Stephen King?

[LSBeene]

Regardless of who is President NOW - our schools are failing because of several factors (IMO):

1) A unionized gov't monopoly that can't/won't reform itself nor admit it's got a VERY bloated bureacracy.
2) In Europe (though I am loathe to pimp EU anything), specifically Belgium the money follows the children to whichever school they go to. The schools have to COMPETE for the children (and their $$) and are answerable to their customers (the parents).
3) We have become fat and lazy in our feeling of superiority.
4) This whole PC idea that "standardized tests are racits/culturally unfair" is nuts. History (non PC history) is history, English is English, Math is math.

We also need to address how I have noticed that young Soldiers who come into my unit are completely ignorant (but not dumb, unwilling to learn, or unable to learn) about history, the actual meaning of our Constitution, or they have been taught liberal leaning meanings of our laws.

[LSBeene]

Oh, and I wanted to add - John Stossel did an excellent piece on this - check it out on YouTube (Key words: John Stossel education) - it's broken down into 6 parts (if memory serves) and he shows EXACTLY how our students are getting screwed, and how home-schoolers are being labeled by teachers unions.

[MuslimAmerican]

Great post, the thing about liberals I am most PO'd about is how they are ruining education. If we had good education in this country, we would fix 90% of our problems in 10 years. Otherwise, we have an uninformed, gullible populace. And by opposing vouchers, it seems as if liberals are doubly trying to keep our children from going to good schools!! A good private school nowadays costs more than college tuition.

[jwb40]

If we had some of those good old teachers instead of the ill educated idiots who claim to be teachers today we would be better off. I agree the students
need to be better behaved, but the teachers are as ill mannered as some of the students. We need to have education for the students and let the school boards run the school. Instead the teachers have to be consulted when changed need to be made. The teachers are there to teach and are paid with our tax dollars, not to be paid to try and make the rules.

[jwb40]

We need to get rid of the teachers union and pay good teachers what they are worth and fire the bad ones. Tenure in another thing of the past and needs to go. Where elce can you sit for 35 years and teach the same thing year after year and yet can't seem to teach them to read write and do math.

[The Kid]

Repeating the same ole urban legend about 35 year tenured teachings is unrealistic. There are so ferw of them. People need to learn why the schools have problems. The main reason is unfunded Federal mandates and required testing. Because of testing schools have to teach to tests or the result is so severe the school will be closed by the harsh penalties. We need realistic solutions ..not just more political ranting.

[pubschteacher]

If we had some of those good old teachers instead of the ill educated idiots who claim to be teachers today we would be better off. I agree the students
need to be better behaved, but the teachers are as ill mannered as some of the students. We need to have education for the students and let the school boards run the school. Instead the teachers have to be consulted when changed need to be made. The teachers are there to teach and are paid with our tax dollars, not to be paid to try and make the rules.


Quick question... How many of the 3.5 million "ill educated idiots who claim to be teachers today" have you met. Unless it is a significant sample, does it all a favor and shut up. This applies to "ill mannered" as well

What kind of changes are you talking about? Curriculum changes, the rules of the schools, graduation requirements? Now, why in the world would you want teacher input into those areas? Oh wait, they are all a part of the job they do.
Do you really think that the school board has a better understanding of say, the physics curriculum than the person who actually teachs the physics class? You are clueless

[pubschteacher]

We need to get rid of the teachers union and pay good teachers what they are worth and fire the bad ones. Tenure in another thing of the past and needs to go. Where elce can you sit for 35 years and teach the same thing year after year and yet can't seem to teach them to read write and do math.

Again, care to cite some real evidence this alleged group of teachers who sit around for 35 years and teach the same thing year after year? I'm betting you are relying on a couple of anecdotal examples and don't quite grasp the fact that there are 3.5 million of us in this country and your sample amounts to....well nothing in the big picture.

I wonder how this country continues to function given your contention that public school kids are not taught to read and write. 89 out of every 100 people in this country were educated in public schools. I would think that if your contention was correct, the US would have been a third world country years ago. Huh?

[pubschteacher]

Great post, the thing about liberals I am most PO'd about is how they are ruining education. If we had good education in this country, we would fix 90% of our problems in 10 years. Otherwise, we have an uninformed, gullible populace. And by opposing vouchers, it seems as if liberals are doubly trying to keep our children from going to good schools!! A good private school nowadays costs more than college tuition.

How exactly are "liberals" ruining the education system in this country. Please give specific examples.
The last voucher initiative was in the state of Utah, last year. It lost in EVERY single county in the state. Now, I don't know if you have much knowledge of the state of Utah, but it hardly can be considered a "liberal" bastion. Colorado has voted down vouchers, twice, by big numbers. Again, not exactly a center of "liberal" thought.

[RickL]

Atta boy/girl Pblc Teach!

Never once does anyone, and I mean anyone, cite proof, polls, studies or anything to substantiate ridiculous accusations such as "most teachers do..." or the "Teacher Unions do...". Never. Not here, not on talk radio. Not on TV.

In the same breath they say we are so far behind the world in education yet the greatest, most productive, most advanced country in the world. How can that be?

And the greatest irony is that the only "proof" offered are anecdotal stories put forth by the same media they claim to distrust on everything else! The same media who paint the US military with a broad brush over a few jerks at Abu Grahib. The same media who paint the pro-life movement as dangerous because of 2 abortion clinic bombings decades ago. The same media who claim Palin is a dope because she missed one question. The same media who claim Quayle was an idiot because he misspelled one word. But somehow, 5, 10 or even 100 stories about "bad" teachers out of over 3 million, and an entire industry is condemned.

How did we all get through? I am conservative (on most things) and smart. Yet, I went to NYC public schools. I would assume that most of the folks here with all the answers got smart enough to have all the answers by going to public schools.

Someone please provide serious data and proof to substantiate all theses claims about teachers and their unions. Every single poll shows a "satisfaction" rate of over NINETY PERCENT when parents are questioned about their childrens schools and teachers. There are 1.1 million kids in NYC public schools today. A full THIRTY-NINE THOUSAND applied for entry into Charter schools for the up-coming school year. Not exactly an attempt at mass exodus now, is it.

And, as was asked, how many of the people on this thread running off made-up stats about teachers, schools and unions have had any kind of first-hand knowledge of more than say, 5 or 10 schools in their lives? How many teachers, other than the ones they have had, have they actually seen teach? Can anyone here explain how school budgets work? How curriculum is made? How the unions operate?

School board elections routinely see a turnout in the mid single digits. How many of these critics vote in them? PTA membership is in the low teens, percentage wise. How many of these critics serve on a PTA let alone regularly attend meetings?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I have no problem with people who are against unions, or even against the idea of public schools. Those are fair positions to take. But making stuff up?

Regards,

Rick

[Apatriot]

A bit of a twist in the question. I would like to know not why you think the schools ARE failing but what information you used to decide that schools are failing?

is it media?
is it scores?
is it personal experiences?

Schools aren't failing in most areas. They are only failing where the rest of the community is failing. Suburban public schools do a pretty good job of educating.

[Apatriot]

Pretty much every time a comparison is made between third world graduates and american public school graduates...our kids end up looking like illiterate fools...and third world schools accomplish this on a budget that is maybe 10% of what we throw at our public school system.

however, most of the kids in the Third world aren't being educated at all. Only the rich and very smart are being educated. Also, everything is cheaper in the Third World. I bet they eat at less than 10% of the cost we eat....

[imme]

Here is the truth. If your child is not learning in school, it is the parents fault. You can blame whoever you want, but it is your child. What your child believes and learns and does is up to you as a parent. I know it's a popular thing today to let someone else raise your children, but if you do that, dont cry about how they turn out. I have 4 kids in public school, and I guarantee you I have more to do with their education than anyone else does. I sit with my kids every single night and teach them what I want them to know. The lesssons in life I think they should learn. All 4 go to public school. I think the schools they go to do a good job. I cant speak for whatever school your kid goes to. But a teacher can only do so much. The teacher can stand in front of that class all day long and talk till they cant talk no more, but if a student doesn't want to learn, they wont learn. If you dont like what your child is learning, maybe you should ask yourself what you're teaching them. I guarantee you your child learns more from you than any teacher they have in any grade they are in.

[kgreenaz]

My husband and I homeschool our three sons. The reasons we chose to homeschool are multitude. But, as our time teaching our children increases, we are so much more able to understand why schools/children/parents fail in education. However, the question here is how do I know that the schools are failing.

1. From the media. Stories about "fuzzy math", "ebonics", whole language vs. phonics debates, etc.
2. From scores. I can not comment about scores because I seriously doubt that every country is taking the same tests that are weighted correctly. However, we use a math curriculum in our homeschool from Singapore because of the rate of achievement in that country. I can say from experience that it is amazing how they teach math, what they teach early on (slight mult. & div in Kindergarten!), and how they get children to get from concrete to mental math in a few short steps and that their priority is on mental math which I find invaluable.
3. On personal experience. I have both positive and negative experiences with school just like anyone else. I see mostly negative aspects of public schooling in my circle of influence. I have only a few friends with children in private school.

To sum up, I would say that I have a multitude of reasons why I think school in general doesn't work. And many of the reasons that I believe this are from reports that I see that compare how students used to read and write from the founding of this country to current times. During the Civil War, the young soldiers would write so eloquently and in such a way that a typical high school senior would never be able to emulate.

Other sources of information would be books (John Taylor Gatto comes to mind), blogs, and homeschooling forums where parents discuss how they're bringing their children home from school because the child is in fourth grade and can only understand second grade math, etc.

We have replaced the 3 R's in school with social programs that take too much time and keep kids away from their families. My children take about two hours per day to do their school work. If we have six hrs. per week of school, my children graduate at the end of the school year with the same knowledge of standards appropriate for their grades and much more. This year we graduated our six-year old from first grade with about six hours per week of school and I'd hate to tell you how many days we actually "do" school. Mostly we go on field trips, play, visit with friends and read.

By the way, we educate our two school-age children for less than $1,000 combined for one school year. This fall they will start 2nd grade and the costs will be less than that. Spending more per pupil for education always falls flat with me because I know how much I spend for two students. I wouldn't even know what to do with $7-8k per student. I couldn't even spend that much.

I'll leave you with quotes from John Dewey, one of the "greatest" progressive, educational leaders in America who was instrumental in changing how Americans view public schooling.

"Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming where everyone is interdependent."

"I believe, therefore, that the true center of correlation on the school subjects is not science, nor literature, nor history, nor geography, but the child's own social activities."

I personally don't see any one person responsible for the public school system but hold everyone who has a part in it accountable. We don't have anything to do with it (and can't afford private school) because the problems with public school are so vast and far-reaching as to be unable to be remedied. Enough people wanted God out of our schools and our country and now they can live in their consequences. We're thrilled to be at home and to have a wonderful, loving, cohesive, God-fearing, God-loving family. To homeschool has been the best decision we've ever made.

Bless God!

[Apatriot]

My husband and I homeschool our three sons. The reasons we chose to homeschool are multitude. But, as our time teaching our children increases, we are so much more able to understand why schools/children/parents fail in education. However, the question here is how do I know that the schools are failing.

1. From the media. Stories about "fuzzy math", "ebonics", whole language vs. phonics debates, etc.

That is about the worst source for the debate possible. The media in this country have failed us. In addition, they package things so that the horror stories of the entire country seem as if they are local. They are not. Fuzzy math is both a real branch of mathematics, and it is another name for estimating, which IMHO, is a very important math skill. In everyday life, it is probably the most used math skill. The media don't know enough (or care enough) to truly understand it.

Ebonics was an experimental program that was used in one school system for a few months (until the public (rightfully) ridiculed it to death).

Whole language vs. phonics is a silly debate. Elements of both are needed in a classroom, because not all kids learn the same way. My oldest cannot do phonics to save his life (and, yes, he was taught phonics (along with other techniques) in public schools). Thankfully, other techniques were also used. My youngest has no problem with phonics.


2. From scores. I can not comment about scores because I seriously doubt that every country is taking the same tests that are weighted correctly. However, we use a math curriculum in our homeschool from Singapore because of the rate of achievement in that country. I can say from experience that it is amazing how they teach math, what they teach early on (slight mult. & div in Kindergarten!), and how they get children to get from concrete to mental math in a few short steps and that their priority is on mental math which I find invaluable.
3. On personal experience. I have both positive and negative experiences with school just like anyone else. I see mostly negative aspects of public schooling in my circle of influence. I have only a few friends with children in private school.

To sum up, I would say that I have a multitude of reasons why I think school in general doesn't work. And many of the reasons that I believe this are from reports that I see that compare how students used to read and write from the founding of this country to current times. During the Civil War, the young soldiers would write so eloquently and in such a way that a typical high school senior would never be able to emulate.

However, the young soldier that was "typical" of people at the time probably couldn't write. Yes, I agree, people with a high school diploma in the early parts of this century know more than the typical high school graduate of today. However, back then, most people didn't complete a high school diploma. If we compare the same types of people (the high achievers) the differences wouldn't be quite as great.

Also, how much time do you spend in writing instruction each day?

Other sources of information would be books (John Taylor Gatto comes to mind), blogs, and homeschooling forums where parents discuss how they're bringing their children home from school because the child is in fourth grade and can only understand second grade math, etc.

We have replaced the 3 R's in school with social programs that take too much time and keep kids away from their families. My children take about two hours per day to do their school work. If we have six hrs. per week of school, my children graduate at the end of the school year with the same knowledge of standards appropriate for their grades and much more. This year we graduated our six-year old from first grade with about six hours per week of school and I'd hate to tell you how many days we actually "do" school. Mostly we go on field trips, play, visit with friends and read.

By the way, we educate our two school-age children for less than $1,000 combined for one school year. This fall they will start 2nd grade and the costs will be less than that. Spending more per pupil for education always falls flat with me because I know how much I spend for two students. I wouldn't even know what to do with $7-8k per student. I couldn't even spend that much.

So you are saying your labor is worthless? I don't think so. An average teacher's starting salary is close to $36k a year (closer to $40k, but for ease of calculation). They work 38 weeks a year, which calculates out to about a $23 per hour salary. Your 10 hrs a week of teaching, is worth $230. I'll assume you homeschool 36 weeks a year (like a teacher), which results in a cost of $8280 a year. yes, it's cheaper, but it also doesn't count special ed, transportation and building costs.

I'll leave you with quotes from John Dewey, one of the "greatest" progressive, educational leaders in America who was instrumental in changing how Americans view public schooling.

"Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming where everyone is interdependent."

"I believe, therefore, that the true center of correlation on the school subjects is not science, nor literature, nor history, nor geography, but the child's own social activities."

I personally don't see any one person responsible for the public school system but hold everyone who has a part in it accountable. We don't have anything to do with it (and can't afford private school) because the problems with public school are so vast and far-reaching as to be unable to be remedied. Enough people wanted God out of our schools and our country and now they can live in their consequences. We're thrilled to be at home and to have a wonderful, loving, cohesive, God-fearing, God-loving family. To homeschool has been the best decision we've ever made.

Bless God!

I don't know of any educator who truly takes Dewey seriously. Most of us view him kind of like psychiatrists of today view Freud. Important historically, but not practically.

That said, I'm glad you enjoy teaching your kids at home. Not everyone can do it. (my wife is a teacher, and tries to homeschool in the summer. It doesn't work for us)

[JenyEliza]

Bingo! Schools and teachers have not failed. Parents have failed. Where are the motivated parents?

Interesting. And you know this how, exactly? :think:

At the middle school my twins are graduating from, there is a large entry atrium at the front door. At the end of the atrium hallway is a bank of glass doors the kids go through to go up the stairs to 6th and 7th grade or to hallways down the right or left, depending on where you need to go in the school (gym or lunchroom, 8th grade classrooms, etc).

On that bank of glass doors, there is a note to parents putting us on notice that we are not allowed to proceed past these doors without specific permission from the Principal--and we have to sign in on the computer at the front office before we can gain permission.

Now, I'm all about safety for our students and staff. It's important and I understand that. I have no problem whatsoever checking in at the front desk and getting a visitor badge. But the way the signage is worded and where it's placed seems more like a invitation to leave the building than a request to sign in and be security minded.

At minimum this is more than a bit unwelcoming to parents. It basically says to us....stay out, you're not welcome in the education process.

From Kindergarten to 5th grade, I went into the school and classroom pretty much every day. I volunteered to help in the classroom and I chaperoned field trips. I knew the kids and the teachers quite well. The teachers and Principal knew where we lived and dropped by in the evenings sometimes (we live on a road that leads to the school). I ensured we had good communication between home and school.

Now, I couldn't put a name and face together for my kids teachers. I've only met them ONCE at the one and only parent teacher conference we had in January.

Tonight is the 8th grade graduation dance. They didn't invite parents to help decorate or contribute in anyway to the celebration taking place. We'll be lucky if we get a picture of our kids before they disappear into the gym.

When you invite parents to leave the building, you invite them to leave the entire educational process. I have tried my best to be involved in my kids education, but I am seriously contemplating home schooling my kids for high school. There is *no* way this will improve for grades 9-12. Our district warmly welcomes parents from K-5, then boots us out the door and blames us when our kids don't perform for 6-12.

*sigh*

[Apatriot]

Interesting. And you know this how, exactly? :think:

At the middle school my twins are graduating from, there is a large entry atrium at the front door. At the end of the atrium hallway is a bank of glass doors the kids go through to go up the stairs to 6th and 7th grade or to hallways down the right or left, depending on where you need to go in the school (gym or lunchroom, 8th grade classrooms, etc).

On that bank of glass doors, there is a note to parents putting us on notice that we are not allowed to proceed past these doors without specific permission from the Principal--and we have to sign in on the computer at the front office before we can gain permission.

Now, I'm all about safety for our students and staff. It's important and I understand that. I have no problem whatsoever checking in at the front desk and getting a visitor badge. But the way the signage is worded and where it's placed seems more like a invitation to leave the building than a request to sign in and be security minded.

It's a tightrope. If schools didn't word it strongly, more people would ignore it.

At minimum this is more than a bit unwelcoming to parents. It basically says to us....stay out, you're not welcome in the education process.

From Kindergarten to 5th grade, I went into the school and classroom pretty much every day. I volunteered to help in the classroom and I chaperoned field trips. I knew the kids and the teachers quite well. The teachers and Principal knew where we lived and dropped by in the evenings sometimes (we live on a road that leads to the school). I ensured we had good communication between home and school.

There is something lost there, but it's not just the schools (the schools contribute), but also the kids. Most kids don't want their parents around by middle school age.

Now, I couldn't put a name and face together for my kids teachers. I've only met them ONCE at the one and only parent teacher conference we had in January.
Well, in middle/high school, not knowing your teachers usually is a good thing. It means there haven't been many problems. Each middle school teacher is responsible for 100-150 (depending on class size) students. It's impractical to meet with all of their parents personally, Elementary teachers have maybe 30 (max).

Tonight is the 8th grade graduation dance. They didn't invite parents to help decorate or contribute in anyway to the celebration taking place. We'll be lucky if we get a picture of our kids before they disappear into the gym.

That's weird. Most dances around here are sponsored by PTAs, so the parents do almost everything. At my wife's previous middle school (not the current one), the teachers were unwelcome at dances.

When you invite parents to leave the building, you invite them to leave the entire educational process. I have tried my best to be involved in my kids education, but I am seriously contemplating home schooling my kids for high school. There is *no* way this will improve for grades 9-12. Our district warmly welcomes parents from K-5, then boots us out the door and blames us when our kids don't perform for 6-12.

*sigh*

It is a combination, though, and some of it is appropriate. Kids need to have more and more self-authority, and need parents less as they get older. It's the way of the world. Now, too often, schools exacerbate that more than it should be.

[mother2]

I work at a High School that was named best in the state for 2006 and I can say that it is our high-performing students that earned us this honor. But where we fail is where all schools fail, public or private. We fail the kids who do not fit our cookie-cutter/ one-size-fits-all approach. All I hear is about standardized test scores, well the problem is right in the name: standardized. We all know that people are individuals so why do we insist that they fit neatly into a very small definition of how to learn, live, and act? We need more individualization not standardization.

[raelgirl]

Great question :) Congrats on that high honor!

I work in a school that is Academically Acceptable and we have a pretty diverse student population most of whom don't have parents who are actively involved in schools and some of whom honestly really don't care or see themselves as having a future in the school system.

The toughest part is finding creative ways to capture everyone's attention whether its a foldable, jeopardy game, a scaffolded activity, stations, or a computerized website. I also threw out Warm-Ups since the students were pretty unmotivated to complete them before I went over them in place of Exit Cards where, in order to leave class, they have to answer 2 problems!!

I also give out citizenship and improvement awards to students who don't have A-B averages but have made the extra effort to attend tutorials, etc. I give also my students who work really hard on test reviews some kind of(doesn't have to be expensive, you can get individually wrapped candy at the dollar store).

In the end, teaching from the heart with a passion for the subject is all one teacher can really do! We cannot reach every single student that comes into our classroom but we can sure try!

[Kodiak89]

Well, this is a very interesting discussion. I believe our school system is extremely flawed. I went to a nice brand new public high school, but I have college friends who went to high school in a building that was falling apart, there was a lack of resources, lack of classes..etc. They obviously made it to college, but a lot of their high school friends didn't go to college.

Schools in relatively "rich" communities are much nicer and better schools than the "poor" communities. This is because we pay for public schools through property tax. I believe the public school system is a joke. If you're going to have a public school system, why shouldn't they be funded equally? I support private schools, but if you're going to have a public school system they need to be equal. Education is the most important key to success in today's world.

Inner city schools are full of teachers who have already given up on their students. If there is a bright student, they focus all of there energy on that student and write off the rest. The union has strangled our kids. I don't care if there is a teachers union, but it has become so powerful that bad teachers cannot be fired. Obama needs to take on the teachers union later down the road, he mentioned it earlier this year, but this is one thing he needs to do for the sake of our youth.

[JenyEliza]

Great question :) Congrats on that high honor!

I work in a school that is Academically Acceptable and we have a pretty diverse student population most of whom don't have parents who are actively involved in schools and some of whom honestly really don't care or see themselves as having a future in the school system.

The toughest part is finding creative ways to capture everyone's attention whether its a foldable, jeopardy game, a scaffolded activity, stations, or a computerized website. I also threw out Warm-Ups since the students were pretty unmotivated to complete them before I went over them in place of Exit Cards where, in order to leave class, they have to answer 2 problems!!

I also give out citizenship and improvement awards to students who don't have A-B averages but have made the extra effort to attend tutorials, etc. I give also my students who work really hard on test reviews some kind of(doesn't have to be expensive, you can get individually wrapped candy at the dollar store).

In the end, teaching from the heart with a passion for the subject is all one teacher can really do! We cannot reach every single student that comes into our classroom but we can sure try!

You sound like an AWESOME teacher. You've already won half the battle--figuring out what motivates your kids, and using it to help them learn and make the grades. I wish there were more teachers like you, instead of teachers who barely know their material and show up just to collect their check each month--that, and the excellent government benies (time off, health insurance, etc, which in our area are WAY better than you get from most private employers).

By the time kids reach 8th grade, many of them are beginning to reach burn out on school. I've seen this in my twin 14 year olds. This year has been really difficult for us all. Keeping them interested and motivated is a huge challenge. That you've done that with your kids is a credit to you and your God-given ability to teach children. You rock. :clap: :mrgreen:

[pubschteacher]

You sound like an AWESOME teacher. You've already won half the battle--figuring out what motivates your kids, and using it to help them learn and make the grades. I wish there were more teachers like you, instead of teachers who barely know their material and show up just to collect their check each month

I'm curious how many of the 3.5 MILLION of us you know. Generalize much? :-)


--that, and the excellent government benies (time off, health insurance, etc, which in our area are WAY better than you get from most private employers).



Hey, you should quit your job and get a job teaching. It looks like there will be some jobs opening up. You seem to think you have a grasp of what it takes to be a great instructor. Put up or shut up.


Report Envisions Shortage of Teachers as Retirements Escalate

Published: April 7, 2009
Over the next four years, more than a third of the nation’s 3.2 million teachers could retire, depriving classrooms of experienced instructors and straining taxpayer-financed retirement systems, according to a new report.

When a Million Teachers Retire The problem is aggravated by high attrition among rookie teachers, with one of every three new teachers leaving the profession within five years,
“The traditional teaching career is collapsing at both ends,” the report says. “Beginners are being driven away” by low pay and frustrating working conditions,

[JenyEliza]

Whatever. :rolleyes:

[pubschteacher]

Whatever. :rolleyes:

Translation...

I know a few dozen teachers, most of them not well enough to know what goes on in their classrooms, so my sample is so small that I better not respond

I don't care what a national study says about teacher pay, my anecdotal experience far outweighs any study that looks at the whole country.

If I become a teacher, I would have to actually implement my theories on how a classroom should be run...better to sit on the sidelines and complain with generalization and anecdote.

:-)

[JenyEliza]

Better transation = I don't take bait from people who only show up here to pick fights over their one or two topic agendas. But thanks all the same.

Have a great day. :mrgreen:

[pubschteacher]

Better transation = I don't take bait from people who only show up here to pick fights over their one or two topic agendas. But thanks all the same.

Have a great day. :mrgreen:

Best translation=If you can't win an argument, act superior and above it, maybe no one will notice. :-)

[JenyEliza]

You (mistakenly) believe you are superior to everyone here.

Which is precisely why I have no intention of taking your bait. ;)

Good luck to you. Hope you enjoy your summer off. :mrgreen:

Jeny

[chip]

A bit of a twist in the question. I would like to know not why you think the schools ARE failing but what information you used to decide that schools are failing?

is it media?
is it scores?
is it personal experiences?


The majority of the parents who have children in public schools dont give a damn. Teachers arent allowed to remove problem students, Adminstrators arent allowed to remove problem teachers.

[page017]

The majority of the parents who have children in public schools dont give a damn. Teachers arent allowed to remove problem students, Adminstrators arent allowed to remove problem teachers.

Short and to the point. And dead on.

[pubschteacher]

You (mistakenly) believe you are superior to everyone here.

Well, if by superior, you mean that I routinely point out the ridiculous generalizations(usually based on one or two personal observations or experiences) made about the teaching profession and education in general, then you would be correct.

Which is precisely why I have no intention of taking your bait. ;)

Good luck to you. Hope you enjoy your summer off. :mrgreen:

Jeny

Whatever makes you feel better, but truth be told, you didn't want this argument because you don't think you can win it. It happens in here all the time. Quit and declare victory!!!

[WreckedParty]

I base my opinions on personal experiences as an 05 graduate of high school, and now in college. High School was brutal because of the crap you go through everyday, not because it had hard material.

[CaffeineHat]

Connecticut - Town of Enfield -

The test scores are low. There are 8 schools in this town - class sizes of 15 children.

They've got plenty of teachers. They suspect they can close down 2 elementary schools ( thanks economy ) and slash the budget by that much. Note here: the teachers who "care so much about the children" won't take a pay cut or wage freeze to save their coworkers jobs.....

Now, if the class sizes are not the problem - and the number of schools are not the problem ...

Just what is the problem in the state that pays its teachers the 3RD HIGHEST SALARY in the nation?

It's the teachers.

I ask the kids in my family - "So, did you learn about WW2? How about the Constitution? Did you learn about the Revolution? The Civil War? Anything?" ....

"Well, we learned about AFRICA, and Asia, and ... "

Um... ok. Maybe they can do a research project on the similarities of Mugabe and Obama.

Forget sex ed - I want kids to be forced to learn the Constitution - and US history.

Plus - teach kids how to use computers? What kid doesn't know how to use a computer?!?! Produce this kid! I'd like to see him (or her)!!

- Schools waste money.
- Schools have substandard teachers (*some, definitely not all.)
- Teachers are not PUNISHED for poor-performance.
- Teachers are not REWARDED for excellent performance.
- Teachers and their unions can be brutal, greedy, and inflexible. (A CT teacher makes DOUBLE the average salary of a Southern teacher.)

PLUS - this one big plus - a huge plus - not in every school - but some - especially urban ones....

The government has neutered or eliminated parents, and family is discouraged. Our schools -especially urban ones- have students who lack parents or a family. What are these schools doing all day? Disciplining children - and attempting (failing) to make a productive member of society out of these kids. It won't work. It just can't. Children should be disciplined by their parents and family -NOT- by the government or school. In these places, it's a deeper issue than just the school itself.
You're joking right? So you have kids who can write HTML code, create podcasts, edit and produce video and audio, create slideshows, do research (good research not the kind that takes the first hit off of google and claims it's a verifiable and factual)? I teach computer technology in Houston, in a school that is well equipped with technology. I can safely say that in neighborhoods where there are computers at home as well as in neighborhoods where there are not, children do not automatically know how to use computers effectively. If you want to raise a generation of consumers who have to buy technology and products from foreign sources, your plan works. But if you expect the U.S. to remain on the leading edge of technology, the only way to guarantee this is to expose them to computers at an early age.

Oh and before you say it, my students produced interactive slideshows about the electoral process, the constitution, Texas ecoregions, and other content from their core classes. So it's not like I'm just teaching how to use computers, I'm teaching them how to enhance their learning and produce high quality reports and presentations with computers.

99% of our kids are on public aid of some sort. 97% passed the state reading tests, 94 percent passed math, science scores aren't in but 2 out of 125 8th graders passed social studies.

Trust me, kids may know how to do things on the computer, but to call them computer users is a stretch. You're saying that in the most technologically advanced nation in the world, you DON'T think it's necessary to teach kids how to use computers? You DON'T think money should be spent to have great technology available? On what are you basing this? If you could give me actual research data rather than anecdotes about what you've heard from a few kids that would be helpful.

[JesusIsBored]

We need more creationism, my local gas station ran out of gas jockeys and I want enough employees to go back to the days where the 7-11 clerks pump my Slurpees for me.

[rosto67]

President Obama has had nothing to do with the "failing schools". He is not responsible for NCLB. So, you must have meant George Bush. And did President Obama ever attend a government school?

[rosto67]

The government schools have totally put aside the concept of academic rigor. First I should state that I am a conservative government school teacher with 37 years experience.

I hold that learning is a personal reconstruction of knowledge. I would emphasize personal. You don't take group SAT's or write group doctoral dissertations. Some where along the line educators have allowed the idea of "group work" to take the place of individual achievement. This leads to loud noisy classrooms. When I hand out an assignment the kids immediately resort to their "group work" configurations. They think nothing about talking during a test or asking their friends questions during the test. This is a product of the "cooperative (cheating) learning" that has been going on.

The administrators are very interested in PR and will do anything that increases their report card scores. If that means leaving a kid on the attendance roster after he/she has been expelled so be it. I have several kids on my rosters right now that were expelled long ago, but they are kept in the attendance roster so the school won't look bad in the dropout category.

The schools have relinquished their role in school discipline to parental committees or hearing boards. A discipline decision is brought up to the board and the board either expells the kid or allows him/her to return to school. The later is usually the case. This fall one of my students was expelled for violent offences and allowed to return to school. The day before Easte break thias same kid pummeled a kid so bad that he got a concussion. Both were expelled. Ostensibly because the pummeled kid assulted the violent kid by moving a desk. The real reason. The board feared a lawsuit because the violent kid had been allowed back to school.

[Apatriot]

Pretty much every time a comparison is made between third world graduates and american public school graduates...our kids end up looking like illiterate fools...and third world schools accomplish this on a budget that is maybe 10% of what we throw at our public school system.

A few things:
1) The third world doesn't educate every child. They educate the small groups of kids in the middle and upper class. If we compared our middle/upper class kids with theirs, it wouldn't look so bad. Actually, we do. It's called the college system, and we do pretty damned good in that arena. If only we could convince our kids to be scientists and engineers.....
2) Their budgets are low, because their costs of living are low. The same happens in the U.S. Education costs are a reflection of the costs of living.

[Apatriot]

I would have to lay blame both on parents and school boards / administrations, not so much teachers.

School boards like new, bright, shiny things so when the "latest thing" in education comes down the pike, they jump on it like a dog on a dreamsicle. Things such as "fuzzy math" and "whole word" reading. Both failed miserably, at least here in Florida, so we're back to "real math" and phonics. Both tried and true methods.

Fuzzy math isn't a bad thing to teach--if you wait until kids know their basics. Most of us use fuzzy math all the time. It's another way of estimating. Whole word is still being taught in FL alongside phonics. Why? Not all kids can learn phonics. My oldest can't do phonics to save his life. I struggle with it, as does my wife. However, my youngest is great at it. You and I do most of our reading using whole word, BTW.

The problem isn't the fads. The problem is treating them like fads, instead of as genuine changes. The classroom is one of the few parts of today's workforce that someone from 1850 would be comfortable in. It simply hasn't changed that much because teachers are too conservative professionally (not necessarily politically) and don't innovate. In fact, during their first year of teaching, most teachers have any innovative ideas beaten out of them by the older teachers (not literally, but figuratively).

Parents must also take an active role in their kids homework. Make sure they understand the content. Make sure they develop good homework / study habits at an early age. It will serve them well in later grades.

Exactly.

[Apatriot]

Oh, and I wanted to add - John Stossel did an excellent piece on this - check it out on YouTube (Key words: John Stossel education) - it's broken down into 6 parts (if memory serves) and he shows EXACTLY how our students are getting screwed, and how home-schoolers are being labeled by teachers unions.


I've got no trouble with homeschooling, for those who can do it. One of our dearest friends homeschools her three kids. There is a very good reason that public school teachers don't like homeschoolers--they mainly see 1) families that have failed at homeschooling (yes, they do occur rarely), and 2) people using homeschooling to get around the system.

Let me explain both:
1) If a family is doing a good job at homeschooling, public school teachers never see them. They just keep doing it, and that's it. However, what happens when a family fails at homeschooling? Generally, those kids end up at public schools, and are way behind where they should be. Don't you think that would lead to a teacher thinking that homeschooling isnt' a good thing?

2) At least in our district, my wife taught several students who were numerically failing at 6 weeks before school's end. Unless these kids made 100 averages in all courses, they would be repeating the 7th grade. Some of these students were "homeschooled" by their parents the last 6 weeks of school, and miraculously, passed into the 8th grade. Looking at their records, some of these kids had done this more than once. Again, wouldn't this make you think badly of homeschoolers?

[Apatriot]

If we had some of those good old teachers instead of the ill educated idiots who claim to be teachers today we would be better off. I agree the students
need to be better behaved, but the teachers are as ill mannered as some of the students. We need to have education for the students and let the school boards run the school. Instead the teachers have to be consulted when changed need to be made. The teachers are there to teach and are paid with our tax dollars, not to be paid to try and make the rules.

I've found the opposite to be true. Most problems are because things are foisted on teachers by politicians (i.e. the school board and state legislatures), rather than by professionals in the field. If teachers made rules, there is no way some of the problems that are allowed would continue. Disrespect of teachers would stop. However, teachers don't make the rules. School boards who are afraid of parents of the bad kids (not the good kids) are making the rules. This allows kids to get away with cussing teachers, etc.

[Apatriot]

We need to get rid of the teachers union and pay good teachers what they are worth and fire the bad ones. Tenure in another thing of the past and needs to go. Where elce can you sit for 35 years and teach the same thing year after year and yet can't seem to teach them to read write and do math.


1) Tenure has been ruled to be a property right. Anybody with tenure, retains it for life, or until they change school systems.
2) There aren't enough good people who want to be teachers to fire all the bad teachers.
3) Tenure is independent of unions.
4) Blame bad administrators for not firing awful tenured teachers. Each state has a procedure to fire tenured teachers. The principals just have to do their part, and document and report everything.

[Apatriot]

Repeating the same ole urban legend about 35 year tenured teachings is unrealistic. There are so ferw of them. People need to learn why the schools have problems. The main reason is unfunded Federal mandates and required testing. Because of testing schools have to teach to tests or the result is so severe the school will be closed by the harsh penalties. We need realistic solutions ..not just more political ranting.

Testing (i.e. NCLB) was an attempt to fix the failing schools. Try again, the problems are much more fundamental than that.

[Apatriot]

We need more creationism, my local gas station ran out of gas jockeys and I want enough employees to go back to the days where the 7-11 clerks pump my Slurpees for me.

I'd rather pump my own Slurpee. Now, gas is a different matter.

[pennysworth56]

You were saying parents have a fit when their kids are disciplined I think one way around that would be to put video cameras in the classrooms. So when little Johnny acts up you can actually show parents what there kids are doing in class. And tell them if it continues then he will have to stay home.

If that does not work and they want to sue the school because he got kicked out then the schools would have proof to the show a judge what actually was going on. It would not a he said she said case, as it would show what really happened.

Also would help protect students and teachers. If a student went home and told mom or dad teacher was mean to me or whatever then the teacher would have proof that it was not true, and vice versa, if the teacher was mean then the student would have proof too.



penny

[Dregun]

I also agree that most parents are clueless about how "bad" their children really are. I have seen many parents (my own included) who would believe anything their children said and have witnessed teachers being blamed because their child was failing. Yet I have also seen teachers who are so stuck in their ways that if a student does not comprehend/learn and is failing that automatically it is the students fault.

I'm pretty good at math, yet I never learned my "times tables", if someone asks me what 12x11 is I have to do it in my head; I don't have it memorized. Yet if someone asks me what 2492x1365 is I can do that in my head as well. My teacher in gradeschool tried to fail me because I didn't write out a solution and didn't memorize my "time tables" in my homework. Her reason was "I" was cheating, using a calculator or having someone else doing my homework and TESTS!!! When I needed my parents to believe me they wouldn't because THEY were taught math the same way and couldn't comprehend math being done any other way.

Just as I learned math differently from my younger sister; she learned english just by reading (very odd). My sister loved to read and learned proper punctuation, structure, etc etc by reading books. She didn't know WHY things were done through someone telling her she just picked it up on her own.

This is the problem with our education system, we do not treat students as individuals we treat them as a collective group. Just as Johny R. likes chocolate icecream and Johny W. likes vanilla we cannot assume that every child will learn the same way. We HAVE to provide alternatives to the way we teach our students. Once a child is frustrated in grasping something they tend to want to give up, even though they have the capability of learning what is being taught. If we can keep that spark alive I think more of our children will become brighter more viable people.

[Apatriot]

You were saying parents have a fit when their kids are disciplined I think one way around that would be to put video cameras in the classrooms. So when little Johnny acts up you can actually show parents what there kids are doing in class. And tell them if it continues then he will have to stay home.

Wouldn't work. I used to know a lady who was an admin assistant at School transportation (i.e. School buses). She said that they would show videos of students acting up to the parents, and the parent would always have some excuse for why the students were doing it.

If that does not work and they want to sue the school because he got kicked out then the schools would have proof to the show a judge what actually was going on. It would not a he said she said case, as it would show what really happened.

Also would help protect students and teachers. If a student went home and told mom or dad teacher was mean to me or whatever then the teacher would have proof that it was not true, and vice versa, if the teacher was mean then the student would have proof too.

penny

Parents will still deny it.

[pennysworth56]

Wouldn't work. I used to know a lady who was an admin assistant at School transportation (i.e. School buses). She said that they would show videos of students acting up to the parents, and the parent would always have some excuse for why the students were doing it.



Parents will still deny it.

Most likely would but if the parents took the school to court, then the school would be able to show the judge what was really going on. And he could make a ruling, that the parents would have to abide by.

penny

[peoplesmachine]

I would like to point out the "no child left behind rule." Parents are not being parents and many of these are very young parents. In grade and high school you could fail. And repeat grades and go to summer school. There was reward and consequence for not doing homework and doing poorly on tests.
Now you can goof off to your hearts content and barely show up and you will pass, albeit with a low grade but passing never the less. If a child or teenage is not being taught the value of an education by his or her parents and because teachers have practically given up on problem children in school.
I would repeal that law and make children and teenagers and young adults understand that they will have trouble in life down the road without a proper education. The American education system is a joke. I have a good friend whose teenage daughter went back to school last year after her summer break, was in school for two weeks and then the school had taken another week off called winter break.
They haven't even been back in school a month and the school feels that kids there should have another break so that they don't feel over whelmed. What is that about?
That is the American education system while children in Japan our so much farther along in learning years than us because they go all year round.

[Apatriot]

I would like to point out the "no child left behind rule." Parents are not being parents and many of these are very young parents. In grade and high school you could fail. And repeat grades and go to summer school. There was reward and consequence for not doing homework and doing poorly on tests.
Now you can goof off to your hearts content and barely show up and you will pass, albeit with a low grade but passing never the less. If a child or teenage is not being taught the value of an education by his or her parents and because teachers have practically given up on problem children in school.
I would repeal that law and make children and teenagers and young adults understand that they will have trouble in life down the road without a proper education. The American education system is a joke. I have a good friend whose teenage daughter went back to school last year after her summer break, was in school for two weeks and then the school had taken another week off called winter break.
They haven't even been back in school a month and the school feels that kids there should have another break so that they don't feel over whelmed. What is that about?
That is the American education system while children in Japan our so much farther along in learning years than us because they go all year round.

A Japanese school year has more breaks than a U.S. School year. However, the longest break is a month.

Also, "no child left behind" means, not that kids get socially promoted no matter what, but that each child has to learn no matter what. Before NCLB, teachers in my children's district found it almost impossible to retain kids in their same grade. Now it's much easier.

[retwwt]

1 Simple Reason.

Parental Responsibility and Socilital Woes.

We have become a weak society rewarding failures (see no child left behind act) not punishing those who do things that are wrong (see RTI).

The parents in this country blame the schools for everything. When a kid gets in trouble must be the teachers fault.

I think there needs to be a weeding out. It sounds elitist but theres NO other way. Without punishment the incentives to actually do whats right in school are slim.

I want to reform education help me do that.

Go to my website.
http://sites.google.com/site/retwwt/Home

[Apatriot]

I don't have children, but know lots of teachers, and overall it seems standards for passing have been diluted year by year. We need higher expectations for students

I disagree. I think standards in 2009 are tougher than standards in 2000 or standards, even in 1983. I look at some of the papers my 3rd and 4th graders bring home, and they are learning things that I didn't learn until college (for example, the statistics of mode, mean and median).

[daggnie00]

I don't understand what could be more important than education? they (the gov) should bend over backwards to make sure schools have it all, i could go without a meal so can they, don't they know the students today will be running this world one day , i am sorry i don't feel real secure about that.

[kristina]

i beleve schools are failing because thay

(teatchers) no longer care about teatching only what they can get from the goverment as far as how mutch money they get for doing absalutly nothing... we should care about the quality of the teatchers and not how quick they can start.:wall:

[RWReaganfan]

i beleve schools are failing because thay

(teatchers) no longer care about teatching only what they can get from the goverment as far as how mutch money they get for doing absalutly nothing... we should care about the quality of the teatchers and not how quick they can start.:wall:

Oh, the irony!

[pubschteacher]

i beleve schools are failing because thay

(teatchers) no longer care about teatching only what they can get from the goverment as far as how mutch money they get for doing absalutly nothing... we should care about the quality of the teatchers and not how quick they can start.:wall:

I wonder how many of the 3.5 million of us you know that lets you make this ridiculous assertion? I also wonder, do you go to your job everyday with the intention of NOT doing a good job. Do you only work for paycheck or do you take pride in your work? :-)

[docjp]

This is an interesting phrase, is it not?

How can a building fail, except physically? It can collapse on the young people within it and we could say this was a failure of the school... in referring to its physical structure.

But people using this phrase do not refer to the physical school building I don't believe. I believe they refer to the demonstrated fact that the educational training of young people is failing to reach expectations. But please note that the "building" is not causing this failure! The failure people are talking about with the phrase "schools failing" are the teachers teaching the young people..... and the sooner we focus on the problem [and strop engaging in "Delusional Thinking" of the MIND], the sooner we will begin to correct the problem of failure.

The reason we Americans are so sloppy in our phrasing of things relative to the human being is that we have been taught by modern mental health for the last hundred years to deny, ignore and pretend that two-thirds of the human being does not exist. Due to fear of what resides within their own MIND realms, what I refer to as "BS&bp" [Behavioral Science and the oxymoron "behavioral psychology"], the professionals in modern mental health - generally including all those licensed to "treat" "mental illness", have all been lulled into a state of denial because the "Esoteric realms of Man" are "difficult" to access, discover and thus, difficult to Know. And in point of fact.... quite impossible for most people to actually awaken from within themselves.

So, what is my point?

My point is that the ancient Greeks who gave the world "Psychology" never expected that someone would ever be so filled with fear... that he would simply deny the Esoteric realms within himself.... and that tens of thousands of others equally fearful of the "Unknown" hidden within their own MIND realms would rush to embrace this person's "Delusional Thinking".... that suggested that since he could not discover the Esoteric realms within himself..... they obviously were not important and should just be abandoned in favor of his new idea of "Behaviorism".

I am speaking of B.F. Skinner, the "father" of Behaviorism, whose Delusional Thinking in the early 1900's gave us a projection of the primary Defense Mechanism within his own MIND as an alternative to the Psychology of the ancient Greeks. In other words, his ignorance of his own MIND realm allowed his MIND to feed Delusional Thinking to the Left-Hemisphere of his brain which caused him to project into the physical plane a replica of the denial processes then active within his own MIND as a new and better way to study Man.

This denial of two-thirds of Man, the Esoteric MIND and Spiritual realms within Man, was greeted with great enthusiasm by tens of thousands of individuals whose unknown fear previously prevented them from pursuing the field of Psychology. As soon as Skinner gained access to the field of "psychology", his fear of the Esoteric was soon institutionalized by "behavioral psychology" eliminating the requirement that those entering the field of Psychology had to undergo a course of personal psychotherapy ... which is the ONLY way for a person to gain access to the Esoteric realms within him or herself.

As other fields of study began to take Skinner's easy and one-dimensional physical approach to understanding Man, thousands of years of tradition in these other fields were set aside as "too difficult" to study. America slowly eliminated the value of the Right-Hemisphere of Man in preference for a purely Left-Hemisphere of the brain approach to the study of Man and "thinking" became the thing to do. Education, which has always been a natural "fit" for Left-Hemisphere oriented individuals soon forgot that a minority of children are naturally Right-Hemisphere oriented and "intuition" and psychic insight was their natural means of perceiving Life.

It was not long until Education and BS&bp saw young people with psychic ability as threats, or "mistakes" of nature. They were given a host of labels, most of which remain today. ADD, ADHD, etc. Any label will do as long as the person labeling the child does not have to leave the safety and comfort of his or her Left-Hemisphere of the brain and thinking.

If these people so dependent upon the Left-Hemisphere of their brains could comprehend the concept that it was their own fears of the Esoteric realms within themselves that cause their MINDs to secretly protect them by feeding Delusional Thinking to the Left-Hemisphere of their brains..... and that this then caused them to "think" [a subtle form of insanity] that perfectly normal children were suffering some strange form of mental illness......... and like I say, if they could comprehend this [which they cannot unfortunately] how would they react?

Let me ask you... how do you react? With incredulity? With shock? With a call for a net for someone obviously unhinged? Are you able to take this "IN" [to consider it via your own intuition by which you access the Knowledge and Empathetic Understanding stored within yourself] or does your own MIND protect you by feeding Delusional Thinking to the Left-Hemisphere of your brain that causes you to "think" that I am foolish, mistaken, ignorant, or simply wrong? Most commonly people I share this with simply assume that I am just a crank, and surely an organization as large and powerful as the APA [American Psychology Association] would have told you about this if it were true. And to that I can merely say.... I understand.

The teachers are failing because they are taught to teach one-third of the child... and to denounce, deny, and hopefully destroy the child's natural attachment to the other two-thirds of him/herself. Actually the "schools are not failing", they are achieving precisely what people like Skinner desired. An emotionless, Godless collection of individuals totally dependent upon some authoritarian figure to tell them what they want?

[docjp]

If truly interested in reforming education, consider that it ought to begin with those who engage in it. It is not possible to teach a Whole Human Being by focusing on one-third of that person... which we have been doing ever since Skinner and his "Behaviorism" hit the schools.