When you believe in something should you allow for doubt?

[Values]

Can someone be convinced of their beliefs so much that there is zero doubt?
Conversely, if you have any doubt is it truly your belief?

[TaylorW65]

Doubt is part of being human. It cannot be escaped. It is not a flaw. Doubt, like anything, can be used for our own spiritual and psychological growth. Doubt can invite us to explore deeper meanings within our selves and our faith.

If belief is not living and growing and is just something we adhere to with rigidity, that is not faith that is just pride, ego and stubbornness.

[Marleysdaddy]

Can someone be convinced of their beliefs so much that there is zero doubt?
Yes - many posters on these forums are living examples of this. Now whether there truly is no doubt, or they don't allow themselves to doubt, I don't know, and I can think of no way to discern that.

Conversely, if you have any doubt is it truly your belief?
Yes - there is room in belief for doubt - (this is an extreme example) I believe that I am typing on this computer right now - however, there is at least a slim possibility I could be in the Matrix.

[ROBERTENEAL]

There is more than one dimension; more than one realm. Why should the existence of one dimension cause a person to doubt the existence of the other?

I don't expect every principle that applies to the natural realm to translate to the spiritual realm. And vice versa.

The more you learn about both realms, the better off you are.

But how do you learn if you never question anything?

[Marleysdaddy]

But how do you learn if you never question anything?

:clap:

doubt/skepticism is the champion of learning

[Tim]

Hmm... I remember someone saying "Lord, I believe. Help me with my unbelief." I wonder if this applies to the OP question.

[TaylorW65]

:clap:

doubt/skepticism is the champion of learning

Here is another dimension of doubt. I think doubting things goes beyond having belief or faith in God.

I used to attend Christian Fundamentalist churches and if I didn't start doubting what other people believe and how they practice their faith I would have gone crazy.

I run into many people who have beliefs that may make sense to them, but if I wasn't allowed to to challenge those beliefs then I would be giving up my own identity and sense of humanity. All I would be is an extension of someone else.

So I think it is important that we all find our own beliefs and be able to question the beliefs of others and ourselves so we can grow.

[Marleysdaddy]

I think doubting things goes beyond having belief or faith in God.


Absolutely - just ask Descartes :))

[RayMan]

Jesus mentions numerous types or measures of faith in the gospels and on numerous occasions credits an individual's faith in God as having gained them their healing. He also seems to suggest that faith and doubt or fear of failure can be present in an individual simultaneously.

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you

Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Mat 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


Paul uses the same sort of language concerning faith in Romans.

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

[pinqy]

Can someone be convinced of their beliefs so much that there is zero doubt?Sure. And there's no problem with that if you find the evidence for your beliefs that strong. However it is a problem if (proposed) contrary evidence is presented or if the evidence you accepted is questioned and you refuse to consider the contrary evidence or the questions on the evidence. For example, it used to be believed that everything, including light, needed a medium through which to travel. The solution for what the medium light traveled through in Space was Luminiferous Ether. Early 19th century scientists had no doubt it existed, even though they couldn't prove it, because it best fit the observations and known theory. But enough work in physics took place (especially by Maxwell) that by the 20th century there was plenty of reason to doubt and there was no excuse for continuing to believe in Ether.


Conversely, if you have any doubt is it truly your belief?
It's a bad belief that can't survive doubt and questioning.

[TaylorW65]

Jesus mentions numerous types or measures of faith in the gospels and on numerous occasions credits an individual's faith in God as having gained them their healing. He also seems to suggest that faith and doubt or fear of failure can be present in an individual simultaneously.

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you

Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Mat 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


Paul uses the same sort of language concerning faith in Romans.

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;


I think we need to distinguish between faith and belief. Belief is more of a intellectual excersize in affirming the tenets we agree with.

Faith is more of a relational entity, it is having trust in the person we are in relationship with.

It is certainly not adhereing to dogma.

[smyrna]

Can someone be convinced of their beliefs so much that there is zero doubt?
Conversely, if you have any doubt is it truly your belief?

We are all in the boat(so to speak), traveling to the other side. I hold myself accountable to have enough faith in Jesus to get out of the boat. Then, once I get out, I pray that I have NO doubt.

Matthew 14:29-34 (New American Standard Bible)


29And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2014:29-34;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23629A))You of little faith, why did you doubt?"

[Values]

Some have said that it is good to doubt and some have said that to doubt is human.
If we truly believe, is there doubt?
I don't think so.
I do think that truly believing is something that escapes most of us most of the time, but if we do believe something there should be no room for doubt, otherwise we do not actually believe.

[TaylorW65]

Some have said that it is good to doubt and some have said that to doubt is human.
If we truly believe, is there doubt?
I don't think so.
I do think that truly believing is something that escapes most of us most of the time, but if we do believe something there should be no room for doubt, otherwise we do not actually believe.

That is a very high ideal you set there. What happens if you can't always reach it? Does sticking to your beliefs mean there is no room for growth?

We all have days and things happen that try our faith. We are imperfect human beings. Even Job finally gave into doubt. Can you say for certain that if you lost your family, your friends, your job and your home and money all in one day you would not experience doubt?

Also, you make God sound so legalistic, that if you don't have the correct volume of faith you will get nothing from God! You better have faith or else! Where is God's grace?

God is always with us by our sides and is as close as the air we breath. But on those days we have doubts God is still with us loving us with compassion and understanding.

[Marleysdaddy]

Some have said that it is good to doubt and some have said that to doubt is human.
If we truly believe, is there doubt?
I don't think so.
I do think that truly believing is something that escapes most of us most of the time, but if we do believe something there should be no room for doubt, otherwise we do not actually believe.

Then the following theologians did not actually believe

Augustine
Aquinas
Tillich
C.S. Lewis
etc. ad infinitum

I think I'll stick with the common view of belief and doubt, rather than call all these guys non-Christians.

[RayMan]

I think we need to distinguish between faith and belief. Belief is more of a intellectual excersize in affirming the tenets we agree with.

Faith is more of a relational entity, it is having trust in the person we are in relationship with.

It is certainly not adhereing to dogma.

I don't have any problem with what you saying here. We could probably quibble over technicalities but there is enough of that around here without the two of us getting into the act.

[smyrna]

That is a very high ideal you set there.

To be Christ like is a high ideal indeed.

What happens if you can't always reach it?

I admit my short comings...and ask for forgiveness and try again.
That is why Christ died.


Does sticking to your beliefs mean there is no room for growth?

It is what allows me to grow as a Christian.


We all have days and things happen that try our faith. We are imperfect human beings. Even Job finally gave into doubt. Can you say for certain that if you lost your family, your friends, your job and your home and money all in one day you would not experience doubt?

I wish I could...but I am still growing and I am probably not there yet.

Also, you make God sound so legalistic, that if you don't have the correct volume of faith you will get nothing from God! You better have faith or else! Where is God's grace?

17And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me."

18And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once.
19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?" 20And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, (O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23721O))if you have faith the size of (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23721P))a mustard seed, you will say to (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23721Q))this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23721R))nothing will be impossible to you.

I do not have much to offer God but my faith.


God is always with us by our sides and is as close as the air we breath. But on those days we have doubts God is still with us loving us with compassion and understanding.

God is always with us but it is our faith that puts us with him.IMHO

[Values]

That is a very high ideal you set there. What happens if you can't always reach it? Does sticking to your beliefs mean there is no room for growth?

We all have days and things happen that try our faith. We are imperfect human beings. Even Job finally gave into doubt. Can you say for certain that if you lost your family, your friends, your job and your home and money all in one day you would not experience doubt?

Also, you make God sound so legalistic, that if you don't have the correct volume of faith you will get nothing from God! You better have faith or else! Where is God's grace?

God is always with us by our sides and is as close as the air we breath. But on those days we have doubts God is still with us loving us with compassion and understanding.


Where did I say I didn't doubt?
I doubt all the time, my question was, if we truly believe is there room for doubt? If the answer is no, do we truly believe whatever it is we say we believe?
Please understand that I am in no way puting myself into this equation. I am simply asking the question and attempting to answer with everyone else.
Also, this doubt and belief thing pertains to all beliefs, not just ones of Faith or God.

[TaylorW65]

God is always with us but it is our faith that puts us with him.IMHO

Yes, our faith is the way we make contact with God. But I thank God that he dosen't wait for me to have faith before he lovingly contact me.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I doubt this thread exists.

[RayMan]

How do I know you exist? I could just be having a nightmare.

[Koushi Shinigami]

How do I know you exist? I could just be having a nightmare.

I've thought the same thing, and then I look at Hadassah's avie (Mrs Rabbit in case she ever changes it) and realize it's no nightmare... :drool:

[smyrna]

I've thought the same thing, and then I look at Hadassah's avie (Mrs Rabbit in case she ever changes it) and realize it's no nightmare... :drool:

and...she's got attitude:eek:

[Koushi Shinigami]

and...she's got attitude:eek:

Nah. She's just drawn that way.

[RayMan]

I've thought the same thing, and then I look at Hadassah's avie (Mrs Rabbit in case she ever changes it) and realize it's no nightmare... :drool:

There is just no way I am giving the punch line for this one. I enjoy being able to cruise around the RF too much.

[captusa]

Yes - many posters on these forums are living examples of this. Now whether there truly is no doubt, or they don't allow themselves to doubt, I don't know, and I can think of no way to discern that.
.......

The problem is not where a person does allow for doubt in his beliefs.
It is when a person does not allow the existance of the doubt of his beliefs in others.

[RayMan]

The problem is not where a person does allow for doubt in his beliefs.
It is when a person does not allow the existance of the doubt of his beliefs in others.


Technically we have to allow that existance in others, the thing that is nice is when folk respect the other person's right to have their own thoughts, opinions and beliefs.

[Mikko]

Can someone be convinced of their beliefs so much that there is zero doubt?
Yes.
Conversely, if you have any doubt is it truly your belief?
Maybe yes; maybe no.:)

[captusa]

Where did I say I didn't doubt?
I doubt all the time, my question was, if we truly believe is there room for doubt? If the answer is no, do we truly believe whatever it is we say we believe?
Please understand that I am in no way puting myself into this equation. I am simply asking the question and attempting to answer with everyone else.
Also, this doubt and belief thing pertains to all beliefs, not just ones of Faith or God.



If we truly believe, is there doubt?
I don't think so.I do think that truly believing is something that escapes most of us most of the time, but if we do believe something there should be no room for doubt, otherwise we do not actually believe.
Do you truly believe and have faith in God ?

By your definition (not mine) if you allow doubt then the answer would be no.

My real question is, is there room for doubt in your beliefs ?

[Values]

Do you truly believe and have faith in God ?

By your definition (not mine) if you allow doubt then the answer would be no.

My real question is, is there room for doubt in your beliefs ?

Why do you take this to a personal level?
I answered the question of doubt and belief, not my personal doubt.
You seem to really be digging for dirt here where there is none.
Let it go. Enjoy the discussion. Relax.

[Values]

Yes.

Maybe yes; maybe no.:)

I tend to agree, but if one does have doubts about their beliefs shouldn't they at least admit to themselves that they are at a crossroad of sorts in their belief? Wouldn't that suggest that they no longer hold those beliefs in the same manner as they did without doubt?

[Drew2]

Can someone be convinced of their beliefs so much that there is zero doubt?
Conversely, if you have any doubt is it truly your belief?

I do know of people who proclaim to have zero doubts in their beliefs, but I think they are confused between belief and knowledge. So yes, you can have doubts about your belief and it can still truly be your belief. That's why it's called belief, faith, etc. as opposed to knowledge.

[Values]

I do know of people who proclaim to have zero doubts in their beliefs, but I think they are confused between belief and knowledge. So yes, you can have doubts about your belief and it can still truly be your belief. That's why it's called belief, faith, etc. as opposed to knowledge.

I see a difference between belief and Faith as well as knowledge. They are connected in some ways but I do not see them as interchangeable.

[TaylorW65]

I tend to agree, but if one does have doubts about their beliefs shouldn't they at least admit to themselves that they are at a crossroad of sorts in their belief? Wouldn't that suggest that they no longer hold those beliefs in the same manner as they did without doubt?

I think one problem with doubting one's beliefs and not recognizing they have changed is that many times people just might not have the self awareness to realize it.

To borrow something from my Buddhist brethren; the path of self awareness is not easy we have many defenses of judgment, denial, justification and rationalization to work through.

[Mikko]

I tend to agree, but if one does have doubts about their beliefs shouldn't they at least admit to themselves that they are at a crossroad of sorts in their belief? Wouldn't that suggest that they no longer hold those beliefs in the same manner as they did without doubt?
If there were a time when they held their beliefs without a doubt, and they have arrived at a point at which they experience some doubt, then yes, I think the spiritually healthy thing to do is to admit that they are at a crossroads and seek to explore the doubt and its implications.:)

[Drew2]

I see a difference between belief and Faith as well as knowledge. They are connected in some ways but I do not see them as interchangeable.

I agree with that, I just didn't take the time to distinguish the two.

[Values]

If there were a time when they held their beliefs without a doubt, and they have arrived at a point at which they experience some doubt, then yes, I think the spiritually healthy thing to do is to admit that they are at a crossroads and seek to explore the doubt and its implications.:)

I agree.