The Coming Evangelical Collapse

[Amallek]

Interesting article from the Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Here is the intro:

"We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.
This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.
Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close."

The reasons why make sense to me. See the article.

[Meriweather]

If Evangelical Chrisitianity main focus is on the political and cultural and not on God, then yes, I can understand how it could collapse as people who believe grow in their faith and wish to focus on what is spiritual, not what is secular.

I am a little confused by this passage, and would like RayMan, CID's or gpd's (Pentecostal perspective):

The ascendency of Charismatic-Pentecostal-influenced worship around the world can be a major positive for the evangelical movement if reformation can reach those churches and if it is joined with the calling, training, and mentoring of leaders. If American churches come under more of the influence of the movement of the Holy Spirit in Africa and Asia, this will be a good thing.

I may not be understanding the differences between Evangelical and Pentecostal. Is this saying that Evangelicals will become Pentecostals; or, that Evangelicals will "borrow" from Pentecostal methods and make them their own?

[Amallek]

Some would say Pentecostals are subset of Evangelicals, but some Evangelicals view them with suspicion (principally against the snake handler types who stretch biblical literalism a bit far). I think the author is suggesting that Pentecostals can be the bright light in this for Evangelicals, if they are able to import some of the success of the Pentecostals overseas. He makes another point about Pentecostals, however:

"Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy"

[Meriweather]

Some would say Pentecostals are subset of Evangelicals, but some Evangelicals view them with suspicion (principally against the snake handler types who stretch biblical literalism a bit far). I think the author is suggesting that Pentecostals can be the bright light in this for Evangelicals, if they are able to import some of the success of the Pentecostals overseas.

Doesn't the success of Pentecostals come from worship and focusing attention on God and the Spirit of God within them? The article seems to be saying that Evangelicals focus on the world, while Pentecostals focus on God.

If part of what Evangelicals are doing is trying to bring God to a secular world, I do agree they must first become Spirit-filled themselves. Again, I am not clear on the present differences between Evangelicals and Pentecostals--or if they even feel there is a "competition" (for lack of a better words) between the denominations.

The article seems to think that there may be a transition from more Evangelical press to Pentecostal press (or writings).

He makes another point about Pentecostals, however:

"Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy"

What is Pentecostal priority now if it is not already biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a "re-emergence" of orthodoxy. In what ways do Evangelicals and Pentecostals fail in orthodoxy?

[Amallek]

Pentecostals have been accused of elevating the Holy Spirit above the other members of the Trinity. Many are also suspect of their claims of speaking in tongues and the physical manifestations of being filled with the spirit (described crudely as flopping around on the floor like a bass on the beach).

In generally, Pentecostals, particularly Assemblies of God (AOG) are theologically conservative literalists, much in the manner of many other evangelicals.

[RayMan]

Some would say Pentecostals are subset of Evangelicals, but some Evangelicals view them with suspicion (principally against the snake handler types who stretch biblical literalism a bit far). I think the author is suggesting that Pentecostals can be the bright light in this for Evangelicals, if they are able to import some of the success of the Pentecostals overseas. He makes another point about Pentecostals, however:

"Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy"


Let's see, 600-700 million Charismatic/Pentecostal believers world-wide. How many snake handler churches?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling

In 2001 there were about 40 small churches that practiced snake handling, most considered to be holiness-Pentecostals or charismatics. In 2004 the practice moved across the border and there were four snake handling congregations in the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia, Canada.

[CID_0687]

Pentecostals have been accused of elevating the Holy Spirit above the other members of the Trinity. Many are also suspect of their claims of speaking in tongues and the physical manifestations of being filled with the spirit (described crudely as flopping around on the floor like a bass on the beach).

In generally, Pentecostals, particularly Assemblies of God (AOG) are theologically conservative literalists, much in the manner of many other evangelicals.
I'll comment when I get home from work :)

[Meriweather]

Pentecostals have been accused of elevating the Holy Spirit above the other members of the Trinity. Many are also suspect of their claims of speaking in tongues and the physical manifestations of being filled with the spirit (described crudely as flopping around on the floor like a bass on the beach).

In generally, Pentecostals, particularly Assemblies of God (AOG) are theologically conservative literalists, much in the manner of many other evangelicals.

Accusations are a dime a dozen. I am Catholic, and Catholics are accused of worshipping Mary and the saints, cannibalism, and being the spawn of Satan. Shrug. There is so much ignorance and so little time to teach. Besides, some are content to remain in their ignorance.

Could some people who attend Pentecostal services be faking? Sure. Some may be wanting attention, but what I suspect might be happening in a great many of the "fake" cases is that these are people who have observed something very real (the presence of God) and hunger for it. They get the cart before the horse. They may feel if they try speak in Tongues or force an "ecstasy", they will somehow attain the presence or be filled with the Spirit of the Lord. They can be taught better, and what happens behind the scenes isn't likely to be as easily observed as what happened out in the open.

[RayMan]

If Evangelical Chrisitianity main focus is on the political and cultural and not on God, then yes, I can understand how it could collapse as people who believe grow in their faith and wish to focus on what is spiritual, not what is secular.

I am a little confused by this passage, and would like RayMan, CID's or gpd's (Pentecostal perspective):

The ascendency of Charismatic-Pentecostal-influenced worship around the world can be a major positive for the evangelical movement if reformation can reach those churches and if it is joined with the calling, training, and mentoring of leaders. If American churches come under more of the influence of the movement of the Holy Spirit in Africa and Asia, this will be a good thing.

I may not be understanding the differences between Evangelical and Pentecostal. Is this saying that Evangelicals will become Pentecostals; or, that Evangelicals will "borrow" from Pentecostal methods and make them their own?


Pentecostalism will continue to grow and the Evangelical movement will dwindle. Some of the growth will be by Evangelical's being filled with the Spirit and joining the Pentecostal ranks.

[Meriweather]

Pentecostalism will continue to grow and the Evangelical movement will dwindle. Some of the growth will be by Evangelical's being filled with the Spirit and joining the Pentecostal ranks.

What is the difference between the two?

[RayMan]

Some would say Pentecostals are subset of Evangelicals, but some Evangelicals view them with suspicion (principally against the snake handler types who stretch biblical literalism a bit far). I think the author is suggesting that Pentecostals can be the bright light in this for Evangelicals, if they are able to import some of the success of the Pentecostals overseas. He makes another point about Pentecostals, however:

"Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy"


Considering that over the past twenty years or so Pentecostalism has become the largest group in the Church next to the Roman Catholic Church it seems silly to call us a "subset" of any other group.

[CID_0687]

Considering that over the past twenty years or so Pentecostalism has become the largest group in the Church next to the Roman Catholic Church it seems silly to call us a "subset" of any other group.
:dance:

[Amallek]

Considering that over the past twenty years or so Pentecostalism has become the largest group in the Church next to the Roman Catholic Church it seems silly to call us a "subset" of any other group.

No offense intended. I am not using the term subset in a pejorative manner. It is just that if Pentecostals are evangelicals, they are by definition a subset of evangelicals, since the evangelical church is bigger than just Pentecostals, who as you say may make up the largest component. Similarly, Catholics are a subset of Christianity.

[Amallek]

What is the difference between the two?

See the Borat movie. He goes to a Pentecostal church and is filled with the Spirit. The history of this movement is quite short (shorter than the Mormons). Although it has roots to the early church and charismatic Catholics, most say it arose on Azuzu Street in LA in 1906. A revival resulting in many people speaking in tongues, (most indecipherable but the most common being Mandarin Chinese). They were ridiculed by the press and the mainline churches for what were viewed as outrageous displays, but have grown to considerable size, particularly in Africa. Having spent years trying to learn Mandarin, I am most impressed by this, however I have been unable to find any current Pentecostal who claims this ability from the Spirit.

[RayMan]

No offense intended. I am not using the term subset in a pejorative manner. It is just that if Pentecostals are evangelicals, they are by definition a subset of evangelicals, since the evangelical church is bigger than just Pentecostals, who as you say may make up the largest component. Similarly, Catholics are a subset of Christianity.

No offense taken. I agree with most of what the author predicts for the years ahead with the exception of his somewhat condescending view of Pentecostal doctrine and practice.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:dance:

[5thIDSoldier]

Interesting article from the Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Here is the intro:

"We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.
This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.
Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close."

The reasons why make sense to me. See the article.

He is incorrect. They will be raptured out and millions of them will simply dissapear, myself included.

[Amallek]

He is incorrect. They will be raptured out and millions of them will simply dissapear, myself included.

That would seem to speed up the process, proving him right sooner.

[TaylorW65]

He is incorrect. They will be raptured out and millions of them will simply dissapear, myself included.

The rapture of the church is a relatively new doctrine developed by John Nelson Darby in 1827. All orthodox and mainstream Christians reject the doctrine. Historically this doctrine was never taught anywhere throughout Christianity until Darby began teaching it.

[Mikko]

Interesting article from the Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Here is the intro:

"We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.
This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.
Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close."

The reasons why make sense to me. See the article.
Is this collapse of evangelicalism the reason for the passage of Prop 8 and the outlawing of gay marriage in every state where that issue has been voted on? And what about all the posts in this forum to the effect that the evangelical movement is growing by leaps and bounds?

[Constantine the Great]

The excerpt on the op sounds a bit too hysterical to me, espousing a "chicken little " view I future events.

[Mikko]

The excerpt on the op sounds a bit too hysterical to me, espousing a "chicken little " view I future events.
Whatever happens, I want you in my corner, CTG.:)

[RayMan]

He is incorrect. They will be raptured out and millions of them will simply dissapear, myself included.


Uh...beg to differ, but this ain't a "why the Secret Rapture ain't so" thread, so I will just move along.

[RayMan]

The excerpt on the op sounds a bit too hysterical to me, espousing a "chicken little " view I future events.

I think the guy makes some valid points about the dwindling of the Evangelical movement. The "chicken little" viewpoint probably has to do with the author himself being a part of the Evangelical movement.

They have, in my opinion, had an inflated view of their own importance for at least the past generation. I don't think that the rest of us are going to notice any big changes. BTW - I am not wishing ill on any Evangelical churches or ministries.

[Gidon]

Interesting article from the Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Here is the intro:

"We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.
This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.
Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close."

The reasons why make sense to me. See the article.

The msm is perpetuating the notion that it is cool to be Godless. It driven by satanic forces. HaSatan is the father of lies.

[Mikko]

The msm is perpetuating the notion that it is cool to be Godless. It driven by satanic forces. HaSatan is the father of lies.It is not cool to be Godless.

[CID_0687]

See the Borat movie. He goes to a Pentecostal church and is filled with the Spirit. The history of this movement is quite short (shorter than the Mormons). Although it has roots to the early church and charismatic Catholics, most say it arose on Azuzu Street in LA in 1906. A revival resulting in many people speaking in tongues, (most indecipherable but the most common being Mandarin Chinese). They were ridiculed by the press and the mainline churches for what were viewed as outrageous displays, but have grown to considerable size, particularly in Africa. Having spent years trying to learn Mandarin, I am most impressed by this, however I have been unable to find any current Pentecostal who claims this ability from the Spirit.
The roots of Pentecostalism go back further than Azusa St....It can be argued that the Holiness movement which started in the late 1700s can be the roots of the Pentecostal movement...Us that are Pentecostals tend to lean towards oh, I don't know...ca. 33 A.D....If you know anything about Pentecostals you'll know why. :D

We don't look at the Azusa St. revival as the beginning of our beliefs...We believe that our beliefs are Biblical...we give no more Divinity to the Holy Spirit than we do God the Father, or Jesus Christ.

We believe that God is the Father of all mankind, He sent His Son to this earth as the Sacrificial Lamb...That through His blood shed, ALL may have the opportunity to come to God, and live as one of His children. Upon Christ's death, He sent the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to be (and this is my term) our guide...The Holy Spirit is just another aspect of God...He helps us, he teaches us how to lead a Godly life....there's so much more to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that I could take up an entire thread on this forum, just posting myself about all there is, that I know about Them...but that's not what this thread is about.

Are Pentecostals also Evangelicals? Yeah...Are Evangelicals Pentecostals? some.

Are Pentecostals and Evangelicals Christians? Most certainly...As are Catholics, and everyone else in between...so what difference does it make how someone is comfortable worshiping? It doesn't.

:D

[CID_0687]

I think the guy makes some valid points about the dwindling of the Evangelical movement. The "chicken little" viewpoint probably has to do with the author himself being a part of the Evangelical movement.

They have, in my opinion, had an inflated view of their own importance for at least the past generation. I don't think that the rest of us are going to notice any big changes. BTW - I am not wishing ill on any Evangelical churches or ministries.
I think you're right Ray...and this isn't against anyone or any particular denomination...but a lot of times people, because they are human and flawed...will get a (pardon the cliche) "Holier than thou" attitude...They will think that their denomination is the only one that's right and all others are wrong, and potentially bound for hell.

Everyone here that knows me knows that I don't subscribe to such doctrines...as you can see in my previous post.

I tend to believe, and I may scare some folks, but I may not...that when a church, or a denomination as a whole deteriorates it happens for one of two reasons.

1) God is holding on to the faithful and weeding out the riffraff
2) The riffraff has gotten out of control and it's time to let it die.

With the article mentioned in the OP I tend to lean towards option 1...I don't believe that the Evangelical Denominations as a whole have gotten on their high horse...but those that have, need to get a reality check....Again, this all comes down to being human and being flawed.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Is the article in the OP calling evangelicalism a "passing fad"?

[RayMan]

Is the article in the OP calling evangelicalism a "passing fad"?

Well after all, it's only been around since the 1730's.

[CID_0687]

Well after all, it's only been around since the 1730's.
It's so last week.

All the cool kids are Pentecostal. :silenced:

[Koushi Shinigami]

It's so last week.

All the cool kids are Pentecostal. :silenced:

I'm not really into chasing the latest trends.....

[RayMan]

I'm not really into chasing the latest trends.....

Pentecostals - Serving God since roughly April of ad 30.

[CID_0687]

Pentecostals - Serving God since roughly April of ad 30.
We need artwork for this...who's gifted in that area?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Pentecostals - Serving God since roughly April of ad 30.

the baptists and the catholics make the same claim.

[CID_0687]

the baptists and the catholics make the same claim.
:think:

Christians...whoda thunkit?

[RayMan]

the baptists and the catholics make the same claim.

I know. We don't mind. They both came into being as an outflow of Pentecost so it's all good.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I know. We don't mind. They both came into being as an outflow of Pentecost so it's all good.

That's funny. :D

[RayMan]

That's funny. :D

Never gets a laugh from the Baptist side of the room. Or the Catholic side either, now that I think about it.

[Mikko]

the baptists and the catholics make the same claim.
Actually, the original Baptist dates back to about three years prior. :)

[Mikko]

I know. We don't mind. They both came into being as an outflow of Pentecost so it's all good.
Not so. John the Baptist predates Pentecost.:)

[RayMan]

Actually, the original Baptist dates back to about three years prior. :)

Check and mate. :clap:

When I was with the S.B.C. about thirty years ago we had one pastor who use to joke (I think he was joking) that the Baptist church could trace its beginnings back to John the Baptist.

[Meriweather]

Never gets a laugh from the Baptist side of the room. Or the Catholic side either, now that I think about it.

The Catholic is smiling.

[RayMan]

The Catholic is smiling.

I didn't mention the "special" Catholic section.

Actually, I gotta give props where due. I think that Catholic folk are better at seeing the humor is religiosity than a lot of other folk.


Except Arch. Dude be grumpy to the max!! :dance:

[Meriweather]

I didn't mention the "special" Catholic section.

Actually, I gotta give props where due. I think that Catholic folk are better at seeing the humor is religiosity than a lot of other folk.


Except Arch. Dude be grumpy to the max!! :dance:

His "grumpiness" had most of us rolling on the floor.

[RayMan]

His "grumpiness" had most of us rolling on the floor.

That's the part that ticks me off. He's way too funny.

[Amallek]

Not so. John the Baptist predates Pentecost.:)

But was John the Baptist ever a Christian, or did he leave too early?

[RayMan]

But was John the Baptist ever a Christian, or did he leave too early?

I have no idea. What do we do with the remark Jesus made concerning John?

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


Could you in fact become a Christian prior to the Resurrection? I tend to think not, but I don't feel right making a dogmatic statement one way or the other.

[TaylorW65]

I have no idea. What do we do with the remark Jesus made concerning John?

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


Could you in fact become a Christian prior to the Resurrection? I tend to think not, but I don't feel right making a dogmatic statement one way or the other.


I don't think you could technically be a "Christian" which means to be a follower of Jesus, but I think you could be a Godly man or woman of faith prior to that time.

[RayMan]

I don't think you could technically be a "Christian" which means to be a follower of Jesus, but I think you could be a Godly man or woman of faith prior to that time.

Indubitably.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I don't think you could technically be a "Christian" which means to be a follower of Jesus, but I think you could be a Godly man or woman of faith prior to that time.

I disagree. The apostles were obviously following Jesus before he resurrected.

[TaylorW65]

I disagree. The apostles were obviously following Jesus before he resurrected.

I agree. I think people were Christians while Christ was alive. I know some believe you couldn't be a Christian until after Christ's resurrection but I don't believe that.

I don't think my post was specific enough.

[LeroyBrown]

Actually, the original Baptist dates back to about three years prior. :)

That's due to a translation error. John is actually known in the original manuscripts as John the Presbyterian.

[ellis]

The following, in italics, is taken from "MY TESTIMONY" on a thread on about page 5-6 of the thread list.

As you know we are being bombarded by the media and others about the shortcomings of "Evangelical" Christians. If a person is a Christian he at least occasionally reads the Bible and more than likely is aware of what is generally known as "The Great Commission" as it relates to this verse and other similar verses.
Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
The idea of "The Great Commission" is the root cause of all Christian evangelism and all Christians are, or at least should be, aware of the obligation these verses apply as well as the actual urging of the Holy Spirit to comply. Using the word "evangelical" to describe the word "Christian" is totally superfluous. In other words, it isn't needed. Personally, I spend considerable time as a Christian, witnessing to other people and the following verse boosts me up.
MARK 8:38 "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Actually IMO, "evangelicism" is really "works" after salvation by faith AND as know you FAITH without WORKS is dead.

[RayMan]

That's due to a translation error. John is actually known in the original manuscripts as John the Presbyterian.

He was a Scottish Jew then? That could explain the simple lifestyle.

[Koushi Shinigami]

He was a Scottish Jew then? The could explain the simple lifestyle.

Aye Laddie. Pass the haggis.

[RayMan]

Aye Laddie. Pass the haggis.

mmm...haggis...

[Koushi Shinigami]

mmm...haggis...

I know it's usually boiled. I wonder if it could be smoked...

[RayMan]

I know it's usually boiled. I wonder if it could be smoked...

I was going to ask you about that.

[5thIDSoldier]

The rapture of the church is a relatively new doctrine developed by John Nelson Darby in 1827. All orthodox and mainstream Christians reject the doctrine. Historically this doctrine was never taught anywhere throughout Christianity until Darby began teaching it.

Really? How interesting. Only millions of mainstream Baptists, Pentecostals, etc follow it.

[5thIDSoldier]

Check and mate. :clap:

When I was with the S.B.C. about thirty years ago we had one pastor who use to joke (I think he was joking) that the Baptist church could trace its beginnings back to John the Baptist.

Actually, if you look at what John the Baptist taught, the doctrines are about the same.

[RayMan]

Actually, if you look at what John the Baptist taught, the doctrines are about the same.

Yep.

I don't recall us ever having a covered dish of locusts at the pot-lucks when I was with the SBC.

[5thIDSoldier]

Yep.

I don't recall us ever having a covered dish of locusts at the pot-lucks when I was with the SBC.

Or wearing loincloths to services either....

I'm not SBC, by the way.

[RayMan]

Or wearing loincloths to services either....

I'm not SBC, by the way.

I know. I was several decades ago.

[Warrior4God]

Pentecostalism will continue to grow and the Evangelical movement will dwindle. Some of the growth will be by Evangelical's being filled with the Spirit and joining the Pentecostal ranks.

You are probably right Ray because I believe men and women will listen to Gods Word more and more and not rely on denominational doctrine for a basis for truth.

The manifestations of the gift of Holy Spirit are for every believer IMO and are given to believers for their edifacation and spiritual growth.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he (he the man wills)will.

[Gem]

But was John the Baptist ever a Christian, or did he leave too early?

I would say that John was a christian. If John wasn't saved God would not used him the way He did.
He got the Holy Spirit in mother's womb before he was born.

And I believe that Jesus baptized him when John asked him to.
Matthew 3: Verses 13 Thu 17.

Also John did come back as Elijah. Matthew 11: verses 7 Thu 14.

[meggers49]

Some would say Pentecostals are subset of Evangelicals, but some Evangelicals view them with suspicion (principally against the snake handler types who stretch biblical literalism a bit far). I think the author is suggesting that Pentecostals can be the bright light in this for Evangelicals, if they are able to import some of the success of the Pentecostals overseas. He makes another point about Pentecostals, however:

"Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy"

that caveat is true for all of Christianity. and for that matter, Judaism but for a different reason.

[meggers49]

See the Borat movie. He goes to a Pentecostal church and is filled with the Spirit. The history of this movement is quite short (shorter than the Mormons). Although it has roots to the early church and charismatic Catholics, most say it arose on Azuzu Street in LA in 1906. A revival resulting in many people speaking in tongues, (most indecipherable but the most common being Mandarin Chinese). They were ridiculed by the press and the mainline churches for what were viewed as outrageous displays, but have grown to considerable size, particularly in Africa. Having spent years trying to learn Mandarin, I am most impressed by this, however I have been unable to find any current Pentecostal who claims this ability from the Spirit.

a BORAT MOVIE? :rolleyes:

[meggers49]

Uh...beg to differ, but this ain't a "why the Secret Rapture ain't so" thread, so I will just move along.

I'm not understanding what you're saying Ray.

[RayMan]

I'm not understanding what you're saying Ray.

(I don't believe in a Secret Rapture before the Visible Second Coming.)

Shh...don't want to get the Rapture folk ticked off at me. Some of them have enough issues with me being Pentecostal. :mrgreen:

[Koushi Shinigami]

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/bodysnatcher.jpg

[meggers49]

I think the guy makes some valid points about the dwindling of the Evangelical movement. The "chicken little" viewpoint probably has to do with the author himself being a part of the Evangelical movement.

They have, in my opinion, had an inflated view of their own importance for at least the past generation. I don't think that the rest of us are going to notice any big changes. BTW - I am not wishing ill on any Evangelical churches or ministries.

I'm thinking that what is going to happen is that the evangelicals are going to want the coherence of being with churches that have some kind formal leadership. I have an issue with churches that are run and answer only to themselves. If you have a larger body that sets the basic fundementals of the beliefs of that church, it fosters unity in faith. If every person who takes a pastors program decides to start their own church, the fractioning will eventually cause a collapse.

If every person who goes to a seminary can start their own church, you eventually have a church of one.

People of faith will want unity. It will be imperitive soon, and churches whose tenets are based on one man's interpretation of scripture will not be as strong as those who have a meeting of the minds on what scriptures mean.

I don't see it so much as a collapse of evangelicalism, as much as it will be a reunion of people of faith and honestly, I think the fervor of these believers will energize all the 'mainstream' faiths that they will join. We will all be blessed for it.


and for grins.....when i take polls on my faith, I consider myself evangelical even though I'm Catholic (and I'm not necessarily 'charismatic catholic' either) but I believe the Word of God is literal, that Jesus is Lord and savior, that he died and rose for me and will come again in glory to subdue Satan. I believe we are nearing those times and I am anxious and excited at the same time.

May you live in interesting times has never meant so much.

[RayMan]

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/bodysnatcher.jpg

Please pick up your pods. They are cluttering up the thread.

[RayMan]

<snip>

May you live in interesting times has never meant so much.

Indubitably.


I'm thinking that eventually everyone will decide to come under the headship of Koushi, CID and myself.

We could call it The First and Final Copasetic Council of Christianity. :mrgreen:

[meggers49]

I'm not really into chasing the latest trends.....

That's why you're going to end up Catholic :whistle: :angel:

[Koushi Shinigami]

That's why you're going to end up Catholic :whistle: :angel:

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/zippermouth.jpg

[meggers49]

But was John the Baptist ever a Christian, or did he leave too early?

he was Christian before he was born. They just didn't call it yet.
See Luke.

[RayMan]

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/zippermouth.jpg

"to dream the impossible dream..."

[Koushi Shinigami]

please pick up your pods. They are cluttering up the thread.

:)) :)) :))

[meggers49]

Yep.

I don't recall us ever having a covered dish of locusts at the pot-lucks when I was with the SBC.

yeah, but honey is nice......especially with sliced apples.

[meggers49]

(I don't believe in a Secret Rapture before the Visible Second Coming.)

Shh...don't want to get the Rapture folk ticked off at me. Some of them have enough issues with me being Pentecostal. :mrgreen:

not having sifted through the entire 'Ask a Pentecostal' thread, is that belief common to Pentecostals or is that your private belief (though not so private any more)?

[meggers49]

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/zippermouth.jpg

:))

[Koushi Shinigami]

:))

:hug:

[meggers49]

:hug:

this is the "non hug hug" because as you can see, I'm supposed to be keeping huggers at bay.....

oh and btw, you can indeed dream, but it will nevah happen ;)

[Koushi Shinigami]

:))

[LeroyBrown]

I know it's usually boiled. I wonder if it could be smoked...

Isn't this a topic for the marijuana thread?

mmmm.... haggis.

Now I have a hankerin for some scrapple.

[RayMan]

not having sifted through the entire 'Ask a Pentecostal' thread, is that belief common to Pentecostals or is that your private belief (though not so private any more)?

Lots of Pentecostals and Charismatics, possibly even the majority believe in "The Secret Rapture." Dake's Study Bible, which was THE Pentecostal Study Bible for decades pushed the Rapture heavily, and most of the high profile Pentecostal preachers on TV and Radio are fans of the pre-trib Rapture.

I taught it for almost twenty years myself because that is what I was brought up with in the Southern Baptist Church. Back around the year 2000 I spent more than a year studying all the scriptures to do with the return of Christ in the N.T. and came to the conclusion that the pre-trib rapture is bunk. I am a post-trib Second Coming kind of guy these days.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[RayMan]

Isn't this a topic for the marijuana thread?

mmmm.... haggis.

Now I have a hankerin for some scrapple.


mmm...scrapple...yummy.

[meggers49]

Lots of Pentecostals and Charismatics, possibly even the majority believe in "The Secret Rapture." Dake's Study Bible, which was THE Pentecostal Study Bible for decades pushed the Rapture heavily, and most of the high profile Pentecostal preachers on TV and Radio are fans of the pre-trib Rapture.

I taught it for almost twenty years myself because that is what I was brought up with in the Southern Baptist Church. Back around the year 2000 I spent more than a year studying all the scriptures to do with the return of Christ in the N.T. and came to the conclusion that the pre-trib rapture is bunk. I am a post-trib Second Coming kind of guy these days.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Thanks Ray. I never thought it made a lot of sense, especially when Christ told people to pray they could withstand the time of the trial, which I always assumed was the Great Tribulation at the end.

Which I DO think is near.

[5thIDSoldier]

(I don't believe in a Secret Rapture before the Visible Second Coming.)

Shh...don't want to get the Rapture folk ticked off at me. Some of them have enough issues with me being Pentecostal. :mrgreen:

Thats ok, RayMan, we love ya anyway.

[RayMan]

Thats ok, RayMan, we love ya anyway.

You guys are da bomb! :hug:

[Jacob_Rising]

Interesting article from the Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Here is the intro:

"We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.
This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.
Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close."

The reasons why make sense to me. See the article.It's not close, it's allready happened.

Secularism has allready won and is continuing to win in our elections.

Behind the scenes President Obama is working to end any kind of tax credit for giving money to food pantries and anyone getting a tax credit for helping faith based entities.

It looks very clear to me that half of America is allready behind the idea of shutting Christianity down and the generations of today are not going to church anymore.

Secularism is the cool thing to be nowadays.

Would anybody be interested in buying my snakes?

I'm having a two for one sale next sunday.

[Koushi Shinigami]

It's not close, it's allready happened.

Secularism has allready won and is continuing to win in our elections.

Behind the scenes President Obama is working to end any kind of tax credit for giving money to food pantries and anyone getting a tax credit for helping faith based entities.

It looks very clear to me that half of America is allready behind the idea of shutting Christianity down and the generations of today are not going to church anymore.

Secularism is the cool thing to be nowadays.

Would anybody be interested in buying my snakes?

I'm having a two for one sale next sunday.

Do you really think that if someone doesn't get 15 cents back off their taxes for a dollar donation, it's going to make the food pantries go bust? If that's the case, then the donations don't really mean much in a spiritual sense anyway.

[Old_Mil]

I am a post-trib Second Coming kind of guy these days.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


As am I. While the rapture theology is very comfortable, I fear that it is going to the be the source of a great falling away as millions of hopeful people go into the tribulation.

[Tim]

I was just made aware of the this article (http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html) by the evangelical blogger/preacher, Michael Spencer. I had not heard of Michael prior to reading this article but apparently he has quite a large audience within the evangelical community.

His Blog is called InternetMonk and you can read his biography here (http://www.internetmonk.com/michael-spencer-the-internet-monk).

The aforementioned article entitled The Coming Evangelical Collapse, appears to be very well thought out and reasoned. The man seems to have a good understanding of the history of Christianity as a whole and very interesting insight into the present condition and direction of the church in America for the 21st century.

I've not delved into the article completely - there is much to absorb - but thought that many of you folks would find it interesting, thought provoking and able to stimulate interesting discussion.

It is NOT an anti-Christian or anti-evangelical piece, by the way, and not related to atheism in any way. I, for one, am growing bored with all the atheism threads lately and would like to see some positive Theism threads going stronger. ;)

Just as a teaser here is an excerpt from the article:
Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.

The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.
And here is a bit from Michael's bio:
Michael is much more opinionated on paper than in person. He describes himself as a New Covenant, Reformation-loving Christian in search of a Jesus shaped spirituality. He has great appreciation for the ancient church, missions, Christian community and theological underdogs.

Michael could be described as a libertarian-leaning conservative politically and an adventurous pilgrim theologically. He owes a lot to Baptists, the Apostles’ Creed, Raymond Brown, Ed Beavins, Eugene Peterson, Robert Capon, C.S. Lewis, the Gospel of Mark, Michael Horton, N.T. Wright, Shakespeare, his Dad, several pastors and always Martin Luther. Now that his kids are out of the house, he would love to move to a little church near a good uh….coffeeshop and a minor league ball park, work with university students and cook Italian food for the mob.

[Koushi Shinigami]

What is the future of Evangelicalism?

Fragmentation to the point of irrelevance.

[Mikko]

What is the future of Evangelicalism?

Fragmentation to the point of irrelevance.
Well, they're sure having their day in the sun right now.

[lwdc]

Spencer is right. His article is years too late.

[Tim]

Allow me to tease with a bit more from his article. The bold, underline emphasis is added by me.

We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it.

Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.

[Old_Mil]

[INDENT]Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.

Authentic Christianity has often been attacked by governments that sought to promote a morality that is vastly different from that in the gospel. American Evangelicalism will not be unique in this respect.

In fact, I disagree with the author. The failure of Evangelicalism hasn't been in opposing liberal values. The failure of Evangelicalism has been to compromise with a culture heading in a different direction to the point that its own message has been lost. It's reduced to the ashes of megachurches that can't say anything authentic for fear of reducing the number of behinds in the pews and putting the monthly mortgage payment at risk and CCM.

Matthew 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men."

[lwdc]

The failure of Evangelicalism has been to compromise with a culture heading in a different direction to the point that its own message has been lost. It's reduced to the ashes of megachurches that can't say anything authentic for fear of reducing the number of behinds in the pews and putting the monthly mortgage payment at risk and CCM.
Yes. The borrower is the slave of the lender. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[Tim]

Authentic Christianity has often been attacked by governments that sought to promote a morality that is vastly different from that in the gospel. American Evangelicalism will not be unique in this respect.

In fact, I disagree with the author. The failure of Evangelicalism hasn't been in opposing liberal values. The failure of Evangelicalism has been to compromise with a culture heading in a different direction to the point that its own message has been lost. It's reduced to the ashes of megachurches that can't say anything authentic for fear of reducing the number of behinds in the pews and putting the monthly mortgage payment at risk and CCM.

Matthew 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men."

You say that you disagree with the author and yet seem to be saying much the same thing he is saying. In fact, what you've said is precisely what I got from his message so I'm confused as to what exactly is your disagreement.

[HardHammer]

You say that you disagree with the author and yet seem to be saying much the same thing he is saying. In fact, what you've said is precisely what I got from his message so I'm confused as to what exactly is your disagreement.

It appears to me that the concepts are the same, one statement (The Article) is just more round about than the other. Old_Mil just cut through the sugar coating. The article while attempting to present the very real demise of the Evnagelical Movement, does not really contain the grit to present the underlying message.

That our society has chosen to reject God as a measure of Moral Integrity in place of there 'own' concept of moral integrity supported by the governments of the world. Hollywood and cable/dish networks present what sells advertising, make no mistake the break down in moral integrity comes down to making money. Sin sells, if it didn't, our society wouldn't be spending 12+ billion dollars a year on porn .

[Mikko]

Authentic Christianity has often been attacked by governments that sought to promote a morality that is vastly different from that in the gospel. American Evangelicalism will not be unique in this respect.
If "authentic" Christianity is attacked, it's only to the extent that it tries to insinuate its doctrines into public policy.In fact, I disagree with the author. The failure of Evangelicalism hasn't been in opposing liberal values.
Oh, really? Is that how they got Prop 8 passed in California, failing to oppose liberal values? The whole evangelical political movement is based on opposing liberal values.
The failure of Evangelicalism has been to compromise with a culture heading in a different direction to the point that its own message has been lost.
Evangelicalism has not been compromising with popular culture, for Pete's sake; it's been obstreperously opposing it since the days of the ascendency of Jerry Fallwell. Evengelicalism's stentorian rantings are still reverberating through the media for anybody who cares to attend to them. It's reduced to the ashes of megachurches that can't say anything authentic for fear of reducing the number of behinds in the pews and putting the monthly mortgage payment at risk and CCM.
The very megachurches that are touted as the sign that evangelicalism is growing? If, indeed, they can't say anything "authentic" for fear of people's leaving, that says more about "authenticism" than anything else.Matthew 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men."
The above verse has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
I hope the author is correct in his analysis and that evangelical movement is waning as a result of its political efforts. When a religious movement seeks to force everyone to live by its beliefs whether they share them or not, it deserves to suffer some decline. By the same token, if the author is right, all the evangelical movement has to do in order to become robust once again is to confine its efforts to the religious arena and stop trying to get its religious doctrines legislated into public policy.:)

[Tim]

Michael Bell ran a statistical analysis (http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-a-statistical-review-by-michael-bell) of Spencer's predictions regarding a decline of evangelicalism in America that is very interesting. His findings seem to validate the predictions. You guys might want to check it out, too, if you are interested in topics like this.

Excerpt:

“Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants.”

While certain segments of evangelicalism will remain strong, as affirmed by Michael in his article, much of Evangelicalism will see significant decline, particularly among the Baptists, who currently make up over 50% of American Evangelicals.

Consider this: In the general population, 22% of adults are between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine, while 28% of adults are between the ages of fifty and sixty-nine. When we calculate the ratio between these two groups we come up with a ration of .785 to one. This means that if you want to keep up with the general population trends, for every 1000 adults you have between the ages of fifty and sixty-nine, you will need 785 adults who are currently between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine with which to replace them.

So how do the Baptist fare? For Baptists 11% are between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine while 37% are between the ages of fifty and sixty-nine This calculates out to a ratio of .297 to 1. In other words there are only 297 adult Baptist between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine for every 1000 adults between the ages of fifty and sixty-nine.

When we compare the numbers of 297 with 785 we find that Baptists are only reproducing themselves at 37.8% of the rate at which the general population is reproducing itself! While people who call themselves Baptists are 15.8% of the population today (according to ARIS), in less than two generations we are looking at Baptists potentially being only 6.0% of the general population (15.8% times 37.8%).

We should note that the actual number of attendees of Baptist churches may be slightly higher than the numbers would indicate as you will likely see Christians who do not self identify as Baptists going to Baptist churches. (I would be one who falls into that category today.) Admittedly there will also be other factors involved: People also have a tendency to come back to the church later in life. Other Evangelical Christian groups are statistically healthier than the Baptists are currently, so Evangelicals as a whole will likely not fare as badly as the Baptists. What this does tell us though is that at least for Baptists, less than two generations from now they will likely be less than half as strong as they are now. Michael’s prediction is looking pretty accurate.

[lwdc]

The whole evangelical political movement is based on opposing liberal values.That is the key.

The evangelical "movement" is a political movement merely cloaked in "faith", even if it did not start that way. Evangelicals have become little more than gospel-lukewarm party cheerleaders, imo.

[Mikko]

That is the key.

The evangelical "movement" is a political movement merely cloaked in "faith", even if it did not start that way. Evangelicals have become little more than gospel-lukewarm party cheerleaders, imo.
They may be gospel-lukewarm, but they're certainly applying a lot of political pressure these days, and have been for quite some time.

[lwdc]

They may be gospel-lukewarm, but they're certainly applying a lot of political pressure these days, and have been for quite some time.They are gospel-lukewarm, but politics-rabid.

As you said, it is a political movement. It is not a Gospel movement, any longer.

[Ron Jon]

“You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.” -- Jesus (according to the gospel of John 8:23).

"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Corinthians 4:17-18

"If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:19

Does "the world" hate Evangelicals? I think too many Evangelicals have forgotten that this world is not our home. If we focus our attention on politics and striving to transform this world into what we think it ought to be, we become too distracted from the work God has called us to do.

To quote one of my favorite bands "We are pilgrims in a strange land. We are strangers, we are aliens, we are not of this world."

[biggles53]

I see the "Evangelical collapse" as part of a decline in religiouis observance generally.

My feeling on it is that, as we become a more educated and informed generation, so we do away with the need for reliance on the supernatural.

To further my case, one need only look at those parts of the world in which education is denied - in these places the level and strength of faith is increasing.......