For All Christians

[REM]

If you have found yourself confused and frustrated in a world where an increasing number of people that pray to science, then maybe you haven't come across some of the studies that have been done to show living proof and ideas that show the bible is and can be literally true. One of the biggest proponents that I have come across so far is Kent Hovind. If you haven't seen the many videos that his church has made on debunking evolution (and also proving that it is dangerous thinking), then you should start watching.

Quick thought provoking question: If dinosaurs are supposed to be millions of years old, then how do they fit within a Bible that is claims to be only a few thousand? The Creation Science Evangelism (http://www.drdino.com/) program has come up with some good bible based answers that deserve to be seen.

Before doing any Google searches, you should be mindful that many people in this world literally hate all Christians. Kent Hovind might even have more hate fans than Hannity! Mr. Hovind has been imprisoned for what officials call “tax evasion”. What the real story shows is that he went against paying taxes for people that do Gods work within the Church. As you can guess, he was strong armed by the government and thrown in jail without a fair trial. I urge you to watch all the video’s that you can get your hands on. He delivers a message that comes straight from the word of God. Also, all of the church videos are free from any copyright infringement (except from calling it your own and selling it to others of course). He isn’t out to make money from Christians as his own personal gain. I would setup an website for you to view them but I don’t have broadband internet.


GODSPEED!



-REM-

[TaylorW65]

Taking the Bible literally is the choice of human beings. It just demonstrates their level of spiritual development. I don't think the Bible was ever meant to be taken literally.

So now you have all these Biblical literalists that have to do these mental gymnastics to ensure their limited scientific world view fits in with their view of Biblical literalism. But the sad truth is that since the Bible was never meant to be taken literally this exercise in trying to fit the round peg of science into the square hole of Biblical literalism was never necessary in the first place.

Oh, btw, I never met one person who prays to science.

[REM]

I don't think the Bible was ever meant to be taken literally.

That is your opinion.

So now you have all these Biblical literalists that have to do these mental gymnastics to ensure their limited scientific world view fits in with their view of Biblical literalism.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can say that the particular church that I mentioned does NOT distort any information to fit an agenda.

But the sad truth is that since the Bible was never meant to be taken literally this exercise in trying to fit the round peg of science into the square hole of Biblical literalism was never necessary in the first place.

You push your opinion as truth... How is that logical? Again it is your opinion that the bible isn't literally true. I think it will be seen and proven when the day comes.


Oh, btw, I never met one person who prays to science.

I have. Every day. If you are an atheist, then I would assume the only thing you believe in is Science. (science btw is a tool made from MAN. It's a good tool that is more often misused more than used for good.)


This is not a debate topic. Either you want to look at the material from the christian side of the science, or you don't. If you do not, then don't post here. Create your own topic if you wish.

[Constantine the Great]

This is not a debate topic. Either you want to look at the material from the christian side of the science, or you don't. If you do not, then don't post here. Create your own topic if you wish.

Au contraire, this is a debate forum which means just about anything posted in here is up for debate. If you didn't want debate, perhaps starting a blog and restricting comments would better suit your needs.

[stereo]

Taking the Bible literally is the choice of human beings. It just demonstrates their level of spiritual development. I don't think the Bible was ever meant to be taken literally.

So now you have all these Biblical literalists that have to do these mental gymnastics to ensure their limited scientific world view fits in with their view of Biblical literalism. But the sad truth is that since the Bible was never meant to be taken literally this exercise in trying to fit the round peg of science into the square hole of Biblical literalism was never necessary in the first place.

Oh, btw, I never met one person who prays to science.


Where is your info to show the Bible isn't meant to be literal? Unsaved tend to choose what they agree with from the Bible and what they don't. What in the Bible do you find to be not literal?

[TaylorW65]

That is your opinion.

Just as it is your opinion that the Bible is to be taken literally.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can say that the particular church that I mentioned does NOT distort any information to fit an agenda.

That sounds like a denial statement. If your Church takes the Bible literally of course it has an agenda! It wants to distort science to fit in with it's view of Biblical literalism.

You push your opinion as truth... How is that logical? Again it is your opinion that the bible isn't literally true. I think it will be seen and proven when the day comes.

I guess we're both the same then huh? We both feel our opinions are truth. But the "you will see" tag at the end was a nice touch.

I have. Every day. If you are an atheist, then I would assume the only thing you believe in is Science. (science btw is a tool made from MAN. It's a good tool that is more often misused more than used for good.)

I am not an atheist. I am very liberal Christian. Here is a snippet from what Marcus Borg, one of my favorite liberal Christian theologians, teaches.

Borg teaches that a historical-metaphorical approach to the Bible is more meaningful for today's world than is the historical-grammatical approach or that of biblical literalism. Borg does not believe that the Bible has to be taken literally if it is to be taken seriously, an idea he develops in Reading the Bible Again for the First Time, subtitled Taking the Bible Seriously but Not Literally. He claims that truths can be found in the many messages and metaphors of the Bible stories even though he states that such stories may not have actually happened at all.



This is not a debate topic. Either you want to look at the material from the christian side of the science, or you don't. If you do not, then don't post here. Create your own topic if you wish.

This is a forum where people come on here to discuss and debate topics. If you don't want to debate your opinions and point of view write a Blog.

[TaylorW65]

Where is your info to show the Bible isn't meant to be literal? Unsaved tend to choose what they agree with from the Bible and what they don't. What in the Bible do you find to be not literal?

So you call me unsaved!! That is the arrogance of Fundamentalism.

Where is the information or command which tells you to take it literally?

If you want to know what and why I don't literally read the works of Marcus Borg or John Dominic Crossan or other theologians from the Jesus Seminar.

[Mikko]

Where is your info to show the Bible isn't meant to be literal? Unsaved tend to choose what they agree with from the Bible and what they don't. What in the Bible do you find to be not literal?
The "unsaved?" And who might that be?:)

[REM]

Au contraire, this is a debate forum which means just about anything posted in here is up for debate. If you didn't want debate, perhaps starting a blog and restricting comments would better suit your needs.

So if someone were to post something like this: "please keep starving children in your thoughts and prayers". Would someone really try to spark a debate? Some thing are not meant to be debated. I was simply posting some information that could be helpful to someone.

It was posted on a debate based website, yes i get that. If you read the topic post, it was completely obvious that i was not asking for someone to come head hunting.

[smyrna]

If you have found yourself confused and frustrated in a world where an increasing number of people that pray to science, then maybe you haven't come across some of the studies that have been done to show living proof and ideas that show the bible is and can be literally true. One of the biggest proponents that I have come across so far is Kent Hovind. If you haven't seen the many videos that his church has made on debunking evolution (and also proving that it is dangerous thinking), then you should start watching.

Quick thought provoking question: If dinosaurs are supposed to be millions of years old, then how do they fit within a Bible that is claims to be only a few thousand? The Creation Science Evangelism (http://www.drdino.com/) program has come up with some good bible based answers that deserve to be seen.

Before doing any Google searches, you should be mindful that many people in this world literally hate all Christians. Kent Hovind might even have more hate fans than Hannity! Mr. Hovind has been imprisoned for what officials call “tax evasion”. What the real story shows is that he went against paying taxes for people that do Gods work within the Church. As you can guess, he was strong armed by the government and thrown in jail without a fair trial. I urge you to watch all the video’s that you can get your hands on. He delivers a message that comes straight from the word of God. Also, all of the church videos are free from any copyright infringement (except from calling it your own and selling it to others of course). He isn’t out to make money from Christians as his own personal gain. I would setup an website for you to view them but I don’t have broadband internet.


GODSPEED!



-REM-

Matthew 22:17-21 (New American Standard Bible)

17"Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23890A))poll-tax to (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23890B))Caesar, or not?"
18But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
19"Show Me the (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23892C))coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius.
20And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23894D))Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

IMHO That wasn't his decision to make. That was the individual's decision when doing their taxes.

[TaylorW65]

So if someone were to post something like this: "please keep starving children in your thoughts and prayers". Would someone really try to spark a debate? Some thing are not meant to be debated. I was simply posting some information that could be helpful to someone.

It was posted on a debate based website, yes i get that. If you read the topic post, it was completely obvious that i was not asking for someone to come head hunting.

Since you do understand that this is a debate forum it would be reasonable to understand then why people started debating what you have said whether you wanted them to or not.

[Mikko]

So if someone were to post something like this: "please keep starving children in your thoughts and prayers". Would someone really try to spark a debate? Some thing are not meant to be debated. I was simply posting some information that could be helpful to someone.

It was posted on a debate based website, yes i get that. If you read the topic post, it was completely obvious that i was not asking for someone to come head hunting.
You're request or lack thereof is immaterial. You submitted a post that made some critical and sweeping statements (and assumptions) about huge numbers of people. Any post made here is understood to be subject to comment. And, disagreement and headhunting are not synonyms.:)

[REM]

IMHO That wasn't his decision to make. That was the individual's decision when doing their taxes.

He was imprisoned because he went again the ridiculous taxes that are applied to churches and their activities.

I understand your reason. The bible says that you should obey the laws of the land IF and only IF they do not break Gods laws. Hovind and his church believed that they were being strong armed by the government (in which they were) so they acted out against it.

Some of them (members of the church) are serving more jail time for not paying an unjust tax than most hard core criminals. More time served than a lot of murderers and rapists! That fact alone shows what our priorities are in today's society.

I should have known it was impossible for me to post things about being a good person and having morals and values without being slammed. Oh well.

Either look at the material, or don't. If you don't want to, then I'm not going to try and twist your arm. Otherwise just leave it alone.

[TaylorW65]

I should have known it was impossible for me to post things about being a good person and having morals and values without being slammed. Oh well.



Now you're acting like a victim. My posts to you were about whether or not the Bible should be taken literally.

Name one person in this thread who attacked you for being a moral or a good person?

[Mikko]

He was imprisoned because he went again the ridiculous taxes that are applied to churches and their activities.
Again, that was not his determination to make.
I understand your reason. The bible says that you should obey the laws of the land IF and only IF they do not break Gods laws. Hovind and his church believed that they were being strong armed by the government (in which they were) so they acted out against it.
The fact that they believed that is irrelevant. The law is the law. There are those who think they are being strong-armed by being required to pay any taxes at all.
Some of them (members of the church) are serving more jail time for not paying an unjust tax than most hard core criminals. More time served than a lot of murderers and rapists! That fact alone shows what our priorities are in today's society.
This is a statement that simply screams for documentation.
I should have known it was impossible for me to post things about being a good person and having morals and values without being slammed. Oh well.
What you posted has nothing whatsoever to do with being a good person and having morals. It had to do with supporting creationism. Not the same thing at all.
Either look at the material, or don't. If you don't want to, then I'm not going to try and twist your arm. Otherwise just leave it alone.
What's the fun in that?:)

[Constantine the Great]

So if someone were to post something like this: "please keep starving children in your thoughts and prayers". Would someone really try to spark a debate?
It could, such as whether or not prayer will help the starving children. Again, posting anything in a debate forum leaves things open for debate.

Some thing are not meant to be debated. I was simply posting some information that could be helpful to someone.
And those here have the like ability to post in your thread, including a differing point of view from what you posted.

It was posted on a debate based website, yes i get that. If you read the topic post, it was completely obvious that i was not asking for someone to come head hunting.

See above.

[Constantine the Great]

Before doing any Google searches, you should be mindful that many people in this world literally hate all Christians. Kent Hovind might even have more hate fans than Hannity! Mr. Hovind has been imprisoned for what officials call “tax evasion”. What the real story shows is that he went against paying taxes for people that do Gods work within the Church.

BY all accounts, Mr. Hovind has tried numerous schemes to try and evade taxes, both personally and for his business. He is also a conspiracy theorist (read "nut") and a fraud with regards to the means in which he has tried to not pay his taxes. Mind you, I hate paying taxes and believe our government to be as corrupt as they get, however not even I believe the country is run by Jews, Israel, the NWO, and the Tri-Lateral commission. The answer is far simpler; our government is run by inept (stupid) and corrupt individuals and they in turn oversee an electorate that has become increasingly complacent and more willing to forego its civil rights and freedoms in the name of nanny-state policies.
Be that as it may, I won't be taking my spiritual guidelines from someone like Hovind.

[Residential Bob]

Where is your info to show the Bible isn't meant to be literal? Unsaved tend to choose what they agree with from the Bible and what they don't. What in the Bible do you find to be not literal?How is an individual literally born again?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Where is your info to show the Bible isn't meant to be literal? Unsaved tend to choose what they agree with from the Bible and what they don't. What in the Bible do you find to be not literal?

Do you take literally the passage about self-mutilation if your body parts cause you to fail? (mentions gouging out eyes, cutting off hands).

Do you take the passage about the last supper literally when Jesus said, "This is my body...... This is my blood"?

[Koushi Shinigami]

So if someone were to post something like this: "please keep starving children in your thoughts and prayers". Would someone really try to spark a debate?

*raises hand* I would.


BTW, Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your time here.

[RayMan]

So if someone were to post something like this: "please keep starving children in your thoughts and prayers". Would someone really try to spark a debate? <snip>

Shucks, we've got some fok around here that would love to debate the likelihood of the sun rising tomorrow with you. And they would give you reams of scientific and/or philosophical reasons why you shouldn't count on said sunrise occurring. Such is life here in the RF. :angel:

[REM]

Shucks, we've got some fok around here that would love to debate the likelihood of the sun rising tomorrow with you. And they would give you reams of scientific and/or philosophical reasons why you shouldn't count on said sunrise occurring. Such is life here in the RF. :angel:

Well, I have learned through hard lessons that there will always be scoffers. Anyone who has an argument against praying for starving children has severe problems. I don't need to rant on and on to satisfy that fact. You can't win an argument with a fool i guess!

[Lie Sniper]

Well, I have learned through hard lessons that there will always be scoffers. Anyone who has an argument against praying for starving children has severe problems. I don't need to rant on and on to satisfy that fact. You can't win an argument with a fool i guess!

Koushi would just need to lower himself............. nah forget it!

[Mikko]

Well, I have learned through hard lessons that there will always be scoffers. Anyone who has an argument against praying for starving children has severe problems. I don't need to rant on and on to satisfy that fact. You can't win an argument with a fool i guess!
Calling someone with whom you disagree a fool is:
1. A sign of defeat in the debate.
2. Disrespectful and out of alignment with the prescribed tone of this forum.:)

[Koushi Shinigami]

koushi would just need to lower himself............. Nah forget it!

:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

[Koushi Shinigami]

Well, I have learned through hard lessons that there will always be scoffers. Anyone who has an argument against praying for starving children has severe problems.

I would pray that the camerman filming the starving kid for the guilt inducing infomercial would hand the kid a sandwich.

[Mikko]

I would pray that the camerman filming the starving kid for the guilt inducing infomercial would hand the kid a sandwich.
Ah, but who would feed the cameraman (or woman)?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Ah, but who would feed the cameraman (or woman)?

The caterer hired by the producer.

[Mikko]

The caterer hired by the producer.
Do I detect an infinite regress in its incipiency here?:)

[Koushi Shinigami]

Do I detect an infinite regress in its incipiency here?:)

Most likely.... ;)

[Scruffy]

If you have found yourself confused and frustrated in a world where an increasing number of people that pray to science, then maybe you haven't come across some of the studies that have been done to show living proof and ideas that show the bible is and can be literally true. One of the biggest proponents that I have come across so far is Kent Hovind. If you haven't seen the many videos that his church has made on debunking evolution (and also proving that it is dangerous thinking), then you should start watching.

Quick thought provoking question: If dinosaurs are supposed to be millions of years old, then how do they fit within a Bible that is claims to be only a few thousand? The Creation Science Evangelism (http://www.drdino.com/) program has come up with some good bible based answers that deserve to be seen.

Before doing any Google searches, you should be mindful that many people in this world literally hate all Christians. Kent Hovind might even have more hate fans than Hannity! Mr. Hovind has been imprisoned for what officials call “tax evasion”. What the real story shows is that he went against paying taxes for people that do Gods work within the Church. As you can guess, he was strong armed by the government and thrown in jail without a fair trial. I urge you to watch all the video’s that you can get your hands on. He delivers a message that comes straight from the word of God. Also, all of the church videos are free from any copyright infringement (except from calling it your own and selling it to others of course). He isn’t out to make money from Christians as his own personal gain. I would setup an website for you to view them but I don’t have broadband internet.


GODSPEED!



-REM-

Thank you for your post.

As a youngster, I was taught evolution. It confused me, and made me feel that life was a waste. I started to think that the Bible was not true. And that there was not a loving God who created us in his own image, and saved us through His Son, Jesus.

I think this is what led me to live a somewhat wild life in my twenties. I didn't really think much about God. Why should I? I was taught I came from a disgusting ape anyway. And all this happened by chance.

Until some things happened in my life that woke me up, and I suddenly felt the presence of God and His loving hand in the life of a good friend of mine who passed away.

I wanted to know Him. And I wanted to know the truth. So I started talking to God. I would ask Him to help me see the truth. That I wanted to know Him, and why I am here on this Earth. I would pray that every day. I would pray, "The one who created me, please help me to know you. Help me to find the truth and what life is all about."

Somehow I was directed towards the Bible. And I read a little everyday. The Bible made so much sense. It showed me what a loving God we have, that he gave His only beloved Son for us, who suffered terribly, just so we can be redeemed and be with Him in heaven like things were intended. Now that's a loving God! I did not see this kind of love in other religions. I knew then, that God was showing me the truth, just like I kept asking. I've seen so many miracles happen, from God, through the Blessed Virgin Mary, and from Jesus himself.

The Bible also had the history of mankind!

Finally, I started checking into evolution and creation, and now I see that a lot of science supports the Biblical account of creation. I found out so much fraud in evolution. The more I check into the scientific evidence of our origins, the more excited I get about our Creator, because it's supporting the Bible.

150 years ago, Darwin's theory could be more accepted because they didn't have the science we have today. Now with all the advancements we have in DNA, the atom, etc.. we are finding out that evolution could not have happened. I am so excited about it! We have a loving God! And the Earth is young, vibrant, and gorgeous!

That is my testimony, sorry to go on and on. :)

[biggles53]

Thank you for your post.

As a youngster, I was taught evolution. It confused me, and made me feel that life was a waste. I started to think that the Bible was not true. And that there was not a loving God who created us in his own image, and saved us through His Son, Jesus.

I think this is what led me to live a somewhat wild life in my twenties. I didn't really think much about God. Why should I? I was taught I came from a disgusting ape anyway. And all this happened by chance.

Until some things happened in my life that woke me up, and I suddenly felt the presence of God and His loving hand in the life of a good friend of mine who passed away.

I wanted to know Him. And I wanted to know the truth. So I started talking to God. I would ask Him to help me see the truth. That I wanted to know Him, and why I am here on this Earth. I would pray that every day. I would pray, "The one who created me, please help me to know you. Help me to find the truth and what life is all about."

Somehow I was directed towards the Bible. And I read a little everyday. The Bible made so much sense. It showed me what a loving God we have, that he gave His only beloved Son for us, who suffered terribly, just so we can be redeemed and be with Him in heaven like things were intended. Now that's a loving God! I did not see this kind of love in other religions. I knew then, that God was showing me the truth, just like I kept asking. I've seen so many miracles happen, from God, through the Blessed Virgin Mary, and from Jesus himself.

The Bible also had the history of mankind!

Finally, I started checking into evolution and creation, and now I see that a lot of science supports the Biblical account of creation. I found out so much fraud in evolution. The more I check into the scientific evidence of our origins, the more excited I get about our Creator, because it's supporting the Bible.

150 years ago, Darwin's theory could be more accepted because they didn't have the science we have today. Now with all the advancements we have in DNA, the atom, etc.. we are finding out that evolution could not have happened. I am so excited about it! We have a loving God! And the Earth is young, vibrant, and gorgeous!

That is my testimony, sorry to go on and on. :)

How's that reading going I gave you Scruffy....?

[Scruffy]

Do you take literally the passage about self-mutilation if your body parts cause you to fail? (mentions gouging out eyes, cutting off hands).

Do you take the passage about the last supper literally when Jesus said, "This is my body...... This is my blood"?

Jesus wants us to know, in that passage, that it is better to go through life without the hand or eye that's causing you to sin, then to sin and spend your eternity in Hell.

And yes, I believe the Holy Eucharist is actually the Body and Blood of Jesus, that He gives to all of mankind to pay the price for our sins.

[jackson Mill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNZCcTcOPV0


At his best

[Scruffy]

How's that reading going I gave you Scruffy....?

I have looked through a little of it, but not all yet. :)

[biggles53]

Thank you for your post.

As a youngster, I was taught evolution. It confused me, and made me feel that life was a waste. I started to think that the Bible was not true. And that there was not a loving God who created us in his own image, and saved us through His Son, Jesus.

Why would an understanding of evolution lead you to necessarily doubt your Bible? Many biological scientists are devoted Christians. The RC church accepts the theory of evolution as a likely explanation for the diversity of life.

I think this is what led me to live a somewhat wild life in my twenties. I didn't really think much about God. Why should I? I was taught I came from a disgusting ape anyway. And all this happened by chance.

Then you were very badly taught! No responsible teacher of biology that I know of would ever teach that you "came from an ape" or that evolutionary processes "happened by chance". Bad teaching doesn't make the theory invalid..

Until some things happened in my life that woke me up, and I suddenly felt the presence of God and His loving hand in the life of a good friend of mine who passed away.

I wanted to know Him. And I wanted to know the truth. So I started talking to God. I would ask Him to help me see the truth. That I wanted to know Him, and why I am here on this Earth. I would pray that every day. I would pray, "The one who created me, please help me to know you. Help me to find the truth and what life is all about."

Somehow I was directed towards the Bible. And I read a little everyday. The Bible made so much sense. It showed me what a loving God we have, that he gave His only beloved Son for us, who suffered terribly, just so we can be redeemed and be with Him in heaven like things were intended. Now that's a loving God! I did not see this kind of love in other religions. I knew then, that God was showing me the truth, just like I kept asking. I've seen so many miracles happen, from God, through the Blessed Virgin Mary, and from Jesus himself.

I'm glad that you found comfort.

The Bible also had the history of mankind!

Albeit a very poor and contradictory "history"...!

Finally, I started checking into evolution and creation, and now I see that a lot of science supports the Biblical account of creation.

No "science" does any such thing! Please do not confuse the fraudsters at AIG with real scientists!

I found out so much fraud in evolution. The more I check into the scientific evidence of our origins, the more excited I get about our Creator, because it's supporting the Bible.

Feel free to reproduce the "scientific evidence" of which you speak!

150 years ago, Darwin's theory could be more accepted because they didn't have the science we have today. Now with all the advancements we have in DNA, the atom, etc.. we are finding out that evolution could not have happened.

Nothing you have said so far could be further from the truth than this! As much as you might like it to be otherwise, the increased knowledge that we have gained in the 150 years since Darwin's elegant theory was first pronounced, has lent such evidence and support that the theory is almost accepted as a given by the scientific community...

[Scruffy]

I'm not on this thread to debate evolution and creation, because it has been taking up too much of my time. I have neglected a lot of my chores. I just wanted to tell my story.

Let me just say this........

A strong supporter of the theory of evolution Professor T. L. Moor wrote, "The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone."

Dr. Niles Eldredge has written, "We paleontologists have said that the history of life supports (the story of adaptive change), all the while really knowing that it does not."

Another evolutionist Dr. Solly Zuckerman, finally admitted the truth when he wrote, "The record of reckless speculation of human origins is so astonishing, that it is legitimate to ask whether much science is left to be found in this field at all."

The apostle Paul said that many people choose to reject the obvious evidence that our Universe and everything in it was purposely created by a divine Creator because they want to escape their responsibility to God.

[Mikko]

I'm not on this thread to debate evolution and creation, because it has been taking up too much of my time. I have neglected a lot of my chores. I just wanted to tell my story.
Yet you submit the four quotes below, which constitute the continuation of the debate.:)Let me just say this........
You're not saying anything; you're quoting other people.:)A strong supporter of the theory of evolution Professor T. L. Moor wrote, "The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone."
Doesn't sound like a strong supporter of the theory of evolution to me.:)Dr. Niles Eldredge has written, "We paleontologists have said that the history of life supports (the story of adaptive change), all the while really knowing that it does not."
So what? He's wrong.Another evolutionist Dr. Solly Zuckerman, finally admitted the truth when he wrote, "The record of reckless speculation of human origins is so astonishing, that it is legitimate to ask whether much science is left to be found in this field at all."
No, he didn't finally admit the truth; he changed his mind and ignored the evidence. The apostle Paul said that many people choose to reject the obvious evidence that our Universe and everything in it was purposely created by a divine CreatorThe only evidence to that effect is totally subjective. because they want to escape their responsibility to God.That's Paul's opinion, nothing more. You happen to share it. Good for you. You've proven absolutely nothing except that you've every intention of debating evolution and creationism.:)

[terri910]

Yet you submit the three quotes below...
Count again, Mikko! ;)
...which constitute the continuation of the debate.:)

No getting in the last word around here! :)) That's why threads go on for pages and pages and ages and ages!

[Mikko]

Count again, Mikko! ;)
OOPS! BRB.

No getting in the last word around here! :))
Especially when they're of the "There! I showed you once and for all" variety.:)
That's why threads go on for pages and pages and ages and ages!True dat!:)
Number changed. I wasn't counting St. Paul since he wasn't a scientist who saw the light. He was a persecutor of Christians who saw the light and heard the voice.:)

[Semi-Sweet]

Thank you for your post.

As a youngster, I was taught evolution. It confused me, and made me feel that life was a waste. I started to think that the Bible was not true. And that there was not a loving God who created us in his own image, and saved us through His Son, Jesus.

I think this is what led me to live a somewhat wild life in my twenties. I didn't really think much about God. Why should I? I was taught I came from a disgusting ape anyway. And all this happened by chance.

Until some things happened in my life that woke me up, and I suddenly felt the presence of God and His loving hand in the life of a good friend of mine who passed away.

I wanted to know Him. And I wanted to know the truth. So I started talking to God. I would ask Him to help me see the truth. That I wanted to know Him, and why I am here on this Earth. I would pray that every day. I would pray, "The one who created me, please help me to know you. Help me to find the truth and what life is all about."

Somehow I was directed towards the Bible. And I read a little everyday. The Bible made so much sense. It showed me what a loving God we have, that he gave His only beloved Son for us, who suffered terribly, just so we can be redeemed and be with Him in heaven like things were intended. Now that's a loving God! I did not see this kind of love in other religions. I knew then, that God was showing me the truth, just like I kept asking. I've seen so many miracles happen, from God, through the Blessed Virgin Mary, and from Jesus himself.

The Bible also had the history of mankind!

Finally, I started checking into evolution and creation, and now I see that a lot of science supports the Biblical account of creation. I found out so much fraud in evolution. The more I check into the scientific evidence of our origins, the more excited I get about our Creator, because it's supporting the Bible.

150 years ago, Darwin's theory could be more accepted because they didn't have the science we have today. Now with all the advancements we have in DNA, the atom, etc.. we are finding out that evolution could not have happened. I am so excited about it! We have a loving God! And the Earth is young, vibrant, and gorgeous!

That is my testimony, sorry to go on and on. :)

Thanks Scruffy.

[biggles53]

I'm not on this thread to debate evolution and creation, because it has been taking up too much of my time. I have neglected a lot of my chores. I just wanted to tell my story.

Let me just say this........

A strong supporter of the theory of evolution Professor T. L. Moor wrote, "The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone."

Dr. Niles Eldredge has written, "We paleontologists have said that the history of life supports (the story of adaptive change), all the while really knowing that it does not."

Another evolutionist Dr. Solly Zuckerman, finally admitted the truth when he wrote, "The record of reckless speculation of human origins is so astonishing, that it is legitimate to ask whether much science is left to be found in this field at all."

The apostle Paul said that many people choose to reject the obvious evidence that our Universe and everything in it was purposely created by a divine Creator because they want to escape their responsibility to God.

Ummm... you might want to be careful when taking out-of-context quotes from well known people.

Here's Eldredge being interviewed at the American Museum of Natural History in 2005:

Question: Do you believe in evolution? How about intelligent design or creationism? I have studied a lot about these theories and why there is such a conflict over them. What do you think?

Eldredge: I think that life has evolved. There’s so much evidence for that that it’s a fact. Life has evolved. If you look at the human fossil record of our lineage, our ancestors living four million years ago had brains more like those of chimpanzees than us. It’s not a theory, it’s a fact. Intelligent Design simply says that a designer made life the way we see it. It doesn’t tell us anything about how we can investigate the biological world. We couldn’t understand why some diseases become drug resistant unless we understand how evolution works.

(my bold)

Errr...doesn't quite sound like the words of a skeptic...does it?

[Scruffy]

Ummm... you might want to be careful when taking out-of-context quotes from well known people.

Here's Eldredge being interviewed at the American Museum of Natural History in 2005:

Question: Do you believe in evolution? How about intelligent design or creationism? I have studied a lot about these theories and why there is such a conflict over them. What do you think?

Eldredge: I think that life has evolved. There’s so much evidence for that that it’s a fact. Life has evolved. If you look at the human fossil record of our lineage, our ancestors living four million years ago had brains more like those of chimpanzees than us. It’s not a theory, it’s a fact. Intelligent Design simply says that a designer made life the way we see it. It doesn’t tell us anything about how we can investigate the biological world. We couldn’t understand why some diseases become drug resistant unless we understand how evolution works.

(my bold)

Errr...doesn't quite sound like the words of a skeptic...does it?

Biggs, read again what Eldredge said in my post.......

"We paleontologist have said that the history of life supports (the story of adaptive change), all the while knowing that it does not."

In other words, Eldredge and other paleontologists supported evolution, at the same time they knew it was not supportable.



Now I'm going to go watch "Dancing With The Stars". I'm tired.

[Conservatismfirst]

It's well worth it and they do have some theories...very interested.

[biggles53]

Biggs, read again what Eldredge said in my post.......

"We paleontologist have said that the history of life supports (the story of adaptive change), all the while knowing that it does not."

In other words, Eldredge and other paleontologists supported evolution, at the same time they knew it was not supportable.

Scruff...I'm going to put this as politely as I can:

You've unfortunately been duped by one of the most commonly used dishonest tactics of creationist websites - quote mining.

This is a ploy of taking selected words of prominent scientists, in order to make it appear that they are expressing doubts about their theories.

And the Eldredge one is a doosey!

Far from expressing doubt, Eldredge was speaking in support of the evolutionary process in this piece!

Heres the transcript in full, something you'll never find at your creationist websites:

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/out_of_context_quotes.html


Now I'm going to go watch "Dancing With The Stars". I'm tired.

Enjoy!

[Herradura]

Albeit a very poor and contradictory "history"...!

Please site those contradictions.

[biggles53]

Please site those contradictions.

OK, let's start with a prominent one - the exodus from Egypt.

Any decent history should be able to produce documentation or other evidence to supprt the claimed events - got any for the exodus?

[TaylorW65]

Evolution is stupid makes no sense should not be taught in schools or churches. I threw a book away in the 60's on this subject.

Always check it out with the Bible.

You would be surprised what the first century chrisitina fathers taught, they had one and only one teaching SALVATION!!! DEATH AND RESURRECTION read Hebrews a summary in a nutshell.

Carlene

Evolution might not make sense to you but the scientific evidence points to an evolutionary process. The Bible isn't a science book.

[smyrna]

Well, I have learned through hard lessons that there will always be scoffers. Anyone who has an argument against praying for starving children has severe problems. I don't need to rant on and on to satisfy that fact. You can't win an argument with a fool i guess!

Matthew 5:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=22&version=49&context=verse)
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ' You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. :question::question::question:

[Residential Bob]

Thank you for your post.

As a youngster, I was taught evolution. It confused me, and made me feel that life was a waste. I started to think that the Bible was not true. And that there was not a loving God who created us in his own image, and saved us through His Son, Jesus.

I think this is what led me to live a somewhat wild life in my twenties. I didn't really think much about God. Why should I? I was taught I came from a disgusting ape anyway. And all this happened by chance.

Until some things happened in my life that woke me up, and I suddenly felt the presence of God and His loving hand in the life of a good friend of mine who passed away.

I wanted to know Him. And I wanted to know the truth. So I started talking to God. I would ask Him to help me see the truth. That I wanted to know Him, and why I am here on this Earth. I would pray that every day. I would pray, "The one who created me, please help me to know you. Help me to find the truth and what life is all about."

Somehow I was directed towards the Bible. And I read a little everyday. The Bible made so much sense. It showed me what a loving God we have, that he gave His only beloved Son for us, who suffered terribly, just so we can be redeemed and be with Him in heaven like things were intended. Now that's a loving God! I did not see this kind of love in other religions. I knew then, that God was showing me the truth, just like I kept asking. I've seen so many miracles happen, from God, through the Blessed Virgin Mary, and from Jesus himself.

The Bible also had the history of mankind!

Finally, I started checking into evolution and creation, and now I see that a lot of science supports the Biblical account of creation. I found out so much fraud in evolution. The more I check into the scientific evidence of our origins, the more excited I get about our Creator, because it's supporting the Bible.

150 years ago, Darwin's theory could be more accepted because they didn't have the science we have today. Now with all the advancements we have in DNA, the atom, etc.. we are finding out that evolution could not have happened. I am so excited about it! We have a loving God! And the Earth is young, vibrant, and gorgeous!

That is my testimony, sorry to go on and on. :)Evolution does not teach that we came from apes. Apes and humans are not in the same genera.

Apes: genus Pongo; Gorilla; Pan
Humans: genus Homo

And what makes apes disgusting? To my mind, our omniscient, omnipotent creator deems a purpose for every living thing.

The real question I have, though, is how the Bible can make "so much sense" as a contraposition to evolution. How, for example, can we have a day of any duration without a sun? The sun was not created until day four.

I'm a Christian, Scruffy. Evolution notwithstanding, the Bible makes sense to me. It speaks to the millenia, to all the generations, to those with little understanding of nature and to those with all the knowledge that we have.

Here's a bit of my testimony: I found Christ in high school, at an age when I was really studying nature for the first time (biology, physics, etc.). When I read the Genesis account of creation, I didn't despair at some invented dichotomy. Instead, I felt at peace, like I understood a bigger picture. Without God, the science I was learning would have been science, and nothing more. With God, the science I was learning had meaning.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" (Romans 1).

Peace

[agoodfoundation]

Evolution might not make sense to you but the scientific evidence points to an evolutionary process. The Bible isn't a science book.


The Bible is the Living Word of GOD.

[TaylorW65]

The Bible is the Living Word of GOD.

JESUS is the Living Word of GOD.

To quote Marcus Borg

Thus, the Bible is like a lens. It's what the lens helps us do (see God), and not the lens as an object that is central. The Bible, therefore, is a mediator - the means, not the end.

The Bible itself calls Jesus the Word of God who became flesh.

The Word of God is the living spirit of Christ and not an inanimate object such as a BOOK.

[Koushi Shinigami]

The Bible isn't a science book.

The Bible is the Living Word of GOD.

Foundation, you just restated what Taylor already said.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Matthew 5:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=22&version=49&context=verse)
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ' You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. :question::question::question:

Yikes. :eek:

[Constantine the Great]

I wish (some of) my Christian brethren could understand that the Bible is not the sum total of knowledge on this earth, and it definitely is not a science book. For anyone who says we should check scientific theories with the Bible, I wonder, have you checked your computer with the Bible? The Internet with the Bible? How about the car you drive, the plane you fly in and the Apollo Space Program with the Bible? I'm not one to memorize the Bible chapter and verse, but it's a very safe bet that none of the above are in the Bible yet we do not shun them nor do we deny their existence. No, the Bible was written by and for ancient man, not modern man (referring to knowledge of the time). If someone had told Isaiah that humanity would be flying in great metal birds of their own making, his head would have probably exploded. Sure Moses may have parted the Red Sea, but I doubt he could ever have envisioned taking a walk on the lunar surface. While the message of the Bible is timeless, the Bible itself cannot be removed from its time.

[Expo Man]

Taking the Bible literally is the choice of human beings. It just demonstrates their level of spiritual development. I don't think the Bible was ever meant to be taken literally.

So now you have all these Biblical literalists that have to do these mental gymnastics to ensure their limited scientific world view fits in with their view of Biblical literalism. But the sad truth is that since the Bible was never meant to be taken literally this exercise in trying to fit the round peg of science into the square hole of Biblical literalism was never necessary in the first place.

Oh, btw, I never met one person who prays to science.

The Bible can be taken literally. It is scientifically accurate, geographically accurate, and is amazing in it's truth. No other book from antiquity compares. It defies all odds that a book could be written by over 40 different individuals over the period of approximately 1600 years and yet it fits together perfectly and has never been proven wrong. Please check out this website which lists some of the scientific facts found in God's living Word.
http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

[TaylorW65]

The Bible can be taken literally. It is scientifically accurate, geographically accurate, and is amazing in it's truth. No other book from antiquity compares. It defies all odds that a book could be written by over 40 different individuals over the period of approximately 1600 years and yet it fits together perfectly and has never been proven wrong. Please check out this website which lists some of the scientific facts found in God's living Word.
http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

I could probably write a book to refute what you have said.

Wait, others have done it for me.


Read: Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by Bishop John Shelby Spong


Reading the Bible Again for the very first time by Marcus Borg.

So if the Bible can be taken literally it means it is a lamp unto my feet, yet it sits on my night stand but I have to turn on a lamp to read it. Oh, wait, that's a metaphor and not to be taken literally.

So do you believe in talking serpents, talking donkys, fitting two of at least 30 million different species of animals into a boat smaller than a crusie ship, the earth stopping on its axis (remember the earth moves around the sun, not the other way around) stars don't exist those are just holes in the night sky to let the light of heaven shine through, hell exists under the earth...oh I could go on but I think you get my point.

The Bible was written by flawed human beings.

[Scruffy]

I could probably write a book to refute what you have said.

Wait, others have done it for me.


Read: Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by Bishop John Shelby Spong


Reading the Bible Again for the very first time by Marcus Borg.

So if the Bible can be taken literally it means it is a lamp unto my feet, yet it sits on my night stand but I have to turn on a lamp to read it. Oh, wait, that's a metaphor and not to be taken literally.

So do you believe in talking serpents, talking donkys, fitting two of at least 30 million different species of animals into a boat smaller than a crusie ship, the earth stopping on its axis (remember the earth moves around the sun, not the other way around) stars don't exist those are just holes in the night sky to let the light of heaven shine through, hell exists under the earth...oh I could go on but I think you get my point.

The Bible was written by flawed human beings.

Have you ever read the actual Bible, or do you read books written by people who try to put their own interpretation on the Bible?

Some of the mumbo jumbo stuff you say is in the Bible, I don't remember reading.

It's funny you will believe Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong, but not Holy Scripture.

Aren't Borg and Spong flawed human beings?

[Mikko]

The Bible is the Living Word of GOD.

In part, yes. In its entirety, no.:)
When taken symbolically, it could be said to be the Word of God, along with the scriptures of many other religions.:)

[TaylorW65]

Have you ever read the actual Bible, or do you read books written by people who try to put their own interpretation on the Bible?

Some of the mumbo jumbo stuff you say is in the Bible, I don't remember reading.

It's funny you will believe Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong, but not Holy Scripture.

Aren't Borg and Spong flawed human beings?

I went to Bible believing churches between 1979 until 1990. I have read the Bible many many times over and used to go to Bible studies at least twice a week during that time.

What do you mean believing scripture? People read it then interpret what they have read. So the question really is whose interpretation am I going to believe? Yes, Borg and Spong are flawed human beings and so was every pastor and minister who would interpret the Bible for me when I was going to those Churches and Bible studies.

I have learned that there is more than just the Christian Fundamentalist way to read the Bible.

[Scruffy]

Scruff...I'm going to put this as politely as I can:

You've unfortunately been duped by one of the most commonly used dishonest tactics of creationist websites - quote mining.

This is a ploy of taking selected words of prominent scientists, in order to make it appear that they are expressing doubts about their theories.

And the Eldredge one is a doosey!

Far from expressing doubt, Eldredge was speaking in support of the evolutionary process in this piece!

Heres the transcript in full, something you'll never find at your creationist websites:

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/out_of_context_quotes.html




Enjoy!

Thank you for posting Eldredge's full transcript.

He proposes the theory of "punctuated equilibria" as a criticism to the traditional Darwinian theory of evolution, because of the gappiness in the fossil patterns and the abrupt appearances of new species. Since things were not coming together, Eldredge proposes that evolution happened in fits, and starts, sometimes moving very fast, sometimes moving very slowly or not at all. It is called punctuated equilibria.

It sounds to me that he is frustrated........

He says,"We have a theory that -- as punctuated equilibria tells us -- is out of phase with the actual patterns of events that typically occur as species' histories unfold. And that discrepancy seems enlarged by a considerable order of magnitude when we compare what we think the larger-scale events ought to look like with what we actually find. And it has been paleontologists -- my own breed -- who have been most responsible for letting ideas dominate reality: geneticists and population biologists, to whom we owe the modern version of natural selection, can only rely on what paleontologists and systematic biologists tell them about the comings and goings of entire species, and what the large-scale evolutionary patterns really look like.

Sounds like he wants to keep working on it though.....

We'll look at some of the larger patterns in the history of life in the next chapter -- along with the hypotheses currently offered as explanations. Throughout it all, adaptation shines through as an important theme; there is every reason to hang on to that baby as we toss out the bathwater.

[smyrna]

I went to Bible believing churches between 1979 until 1990. I have read the Bible many many times over and used to go to Bible studies at least twice a week during that time.

What do you mean believing scripture? People read it then interpret what they have read. So the question really is whose interpretation am I going to believe?

I think you bring up a great problem for a believer. What interpretation do you believe? The Bible is the word of God IMO. Picking the translation can have a lot to do with your understanding. It is our responsibility to read the Bible from beginning to end. If you know the context of the verse, it becomes harder for someone to mislead you with their interpretation.

Yes, Borg and Spong are flawed human beings and so was every pastor and minister who would interpret the Bible for me when I was going to those Churches and Bible studies.

I have learned that there is more than just the Christian Fundamentalist way to read the Bible.

You sound strong and not easily swayed. You also sound turned off to going to church. If that is true, don't let people you don't agree with spoil your Sunday worship with the Lord. If it is as bad as you say, then the Lord needs you in there all the more.

[agoodfoundation]

In part, yes. In its entirety, no.:)
When taken symbolically, it could be said to be the Word of God, along with the scriptures of many other religions.:)


believe what you will. But to me the Bible is the only living Word of God.

[Tinker]

Taking the Bible literally is the choice of human beings. It just demonstrates their level of spiritual development. I don't think the Bible was ever meant to be taken literally.

So now you have all these Biblical literalists that have to do these mental gymnastics to ensure their limited scientific world view fits in with their view of Biblical literalism. But the sad truth is that since the Bible was never meant to be taken literally this exercise in trying to fit the round peg of science into the square hole of Biblical literalism was never necessary in the first place.

Oh, btw, I never met one person who prays to science.

I totally agree. During the time that the Bible was formed, not many were literate so the process of spreading the word was by speeches. I feel that the Bible is more than just a revered book, but also literature. It was written with the people of that time in mind, so they could better understand the idea.

[Mikko]

Aren't Borg and Spong flawed human beings?
Yes, as were the people who wrote the Bible.:)

[darknessesedge]

If you have found yourself confused and frustrated in a world where an increasing number of people that pray to science, then maybe you haven't come across some of the studies that have been done to show living proof and ideas that show the bible is and can be literally true. One of the biggest proponents that I have come across so far is Kent Hovind. If you haven't seen the many videos that his church has made on debunking evolution (and also proving that it is dangerous thinking), then you should start watching.

Quick thought provoking question: If dinosaurs are supposed to be millions of years old, then how do they fit within a Bible that is claims to be only a few thousand? The Creation Science Evangelism (http://www.drdino.com/) program has come up with some good bible based answers that deserve to be seen.

Before doing any Google searches, you should be mindful that many people in this world literally hate all Christians. Kent Hovind might even have more hate fans than Hannity! Mr. Hovind has been imprisoned for what officials call “tax evasion”. What the real story shows is that he went against paying taxes for people that do Gods work within the Church. As you can guess, he was strong armed by the government and thrown in jail without a fair trial. I urge you to watch all the video’s that you can get your hands on. He delivers a message that comes straight from the word of God. Also, all of the church videos are free from any copyright infringement (except from calling it your own and selling it to others of course). He isn’t out to make money from Christians as his own personal gain. I would setup an website for you to view them but I don’t have broadband internet.


GODSPEED!



-REM-

who says the bible was written from day 1 of the earths existence?
noone knows how old the earth is but God.
who says there were no dinosaurs?

[Mikko]

believe what you will. But to me the Bible is the only living Word of God.
believe what you will. But to me it isn't.:)

[Mikko]

who says the bible was written from day 1 of the earths existence?
noone knows how old the earth is but God.
Not so. Plenty of humans know how old the earth is. It's 4.5billion years old.
who says there were no dinosaurs?
That's a good question.:)

[free2B]

Matthew 22:17-21 (New American Standard Bible)

17"Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23890A))poll-tax to (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23890B))Caesar, or not?"
18But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
19"Show Me the (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23892C))coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius.
20And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:%2017-21;&version=49;#cen-NASB-23894D))Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

IMHO That wasn't his decision to make. That was the individual's decision when doing their taxes.

wrong! you avoided paying taxes to the Roman Empire at your peril

[Buffalo]

Ken Hovind is a tax cheat and a fraud. He is in prison for a reason, and it isn't "being strong armed by the government".
There are plenty of reasons to hold creationism as personal truth, this guy doesn't help.

[RayMan]

wrong! you avoided paying taxes to the Roman Empire at your peril

I believe the tax collectors wore swords in those days and came by your house to pick up what THEY felt you owed rather than you going to H and R Block and e-filing.

[TaylorW65]

I believe the tax collectors wore swords in those days and came by your house to pick up what THEY felt you owed rather than you going to H and R Block and e-filing.


I'm sure they took a little extra for their own pockets too.

[Ron Jon]

The "unsaved?" And who might that be?:)Anyone who doesn't agree with stereo? :think:

[Ron Jon]

So if someone were to post something like this: "please keep starving children in your thoughts and prayers". Would someone really try to spark a debate? Some thing are not meant to be debated. I was simply posting some information that could be helpful to someone.

It was posted on a debate based website, yes i get that. If you read the topic post, it was completely obvious that i was not asking for someone to come head hunting.I couldn't find a link in your OP. Was there supposed to be one or did you expect us to simply Google the information?

[Ron Jon]

I totally agree. During the time that the Bible was formed, not many were literate so the process of spreading the word was by speeches. I feel that the Bible is more than just a revered book, but also literature. It was written with the people of that time in mind, so they could better understand the idea.Wouldn't it be great if we knew what (or how) people living 2,000 years ago understood the word "living" to mean. I mean, take (for example) the phrase "living water". Surely, that doesn't mean the water was literally ALIVE! So, if it wasn't understood literally, then perhaps figureatively speaking, water is "alive" when it is moving (like say a river of water moving down stream). So, by the same token, couldn't it also be said that the "living" word of God is "alive" when it is "moving"? How do words move? When they are spoken (at least 2,000 years ago or prior to the printing press).

[RayMan]

Wouldn't it be great if we knew what (or how) people living 2,000 years ago understood the word "living" to mean. I mean, take (for example) the phrase "living water". Surely, that doesn't mean the water was literally ALIVE! So, if it wasn't understood literally, then perhaps figureatively speaking, water is "alive" when it is moving (like say a river of water moving down stream). So, by the same token, couldn't it also be said that the "living" word of God is "alive" when it is "moving"? How do words move? When they are spoken (at least 2,000 years ago or prior to the printing press).

I am of the opinion that "living water" speaks of the life giving spiritual quality of the water upon those who partake of it.

[Ron Jon]

I am of the opinion that "living water" speaks of the life giving spiritual quality of the water upon those who partake of it.Like I said, wouldn't it be nice if we knew for sure what it meant in Jesus' day.

[REM]

I couldn't find a link in your OP. Was there supposed to be one or did you expect us to simply Google the information?

Video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmfQZdl03D8&feature=PlayList&p=6F11265041EEF5A9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=41)

Yeah, i forgot to post a link for one of the actual videos i guess. I wish i could setup a steaming server for it, but i dont have access to broadband right now. You can go to youtube and search for them (make sure they are the original ones).

Do a specific search for "100 reasons evolution is stupid"

[TaylorW65]

There is a difference between literal and truth.
Truth means it is true.
Literal means nearly the same.

What in the Bible is said to be true and at the same time literal?

Christ said "I AM WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO MAN COMES TO ME EXCEPT THROUGH THE FATHER. JOHN 14.

TRUE OR LITERAL.

Carlene

When Jesus says he is the way and the truth and the life it sounds like metaphorical language to me.

How can a person be the way?

How can a person be the Life?

How can a person be the truth?

Those cannot be literally true!

I believe those words are to be interpreted symbolically and metaphorically, or more accurately, I believe those words need to be understood spiritually.

I don't think he meant that as meaning this Christian religion that sprung up in his name as being the only way to God.

[REM]

When Jesus says he is the way and the truth and the life it sounds like metaphorical language to me.

How can a person be the way?

How can a person be the Life?

How can a person be the truth?

Those cannot be literally true!


Well, it's your choice to not believe that Jesus is our savior and healer. If you want to live your life without that then go for it. I'll be praying for you though.

[TaylorW65]

Well, it's your choice to not believe that Jesus is our savior and healer. If you want to live your life without that then go for it. I'll be praying for you though.

I never said that I didn't believe that!!!!!!!

You see that is why I cannot be a fundamentalist!!!!! The arrogance!!!!

Do you believe there is only one way of looking at things...your way perhaps!!!

I have a great passionate LOVE for Jesus even though I am unorthodox. He is healing me and saving me one day at a time and I have a lot of trust in him!

But i would never profess to have the presumptive arrogance to think that another believer needs to be prayed for or didn't have their own relationship with Christ just because they didn't see things my way!

[Buffalo]

Hovind is also a anti semite and a 9/11 truther
http://www.kent-hovind.com/articles/semite.htm
And I have no problem saying that this guy is a complete and utter scumbag fraud liar.

[REM]

I never said that I didn't believe that!!!!!!!

You see that is why I cannot be a fundamentalist!!!!! The arrogance!!!!

Do you believe there is only one way of looking at things...your way perhaps!!!

I have a great passionate LOVE for Jesus even though I am unorthodox. He is healing me and saving me one day at a time and I have a lot of trust in him!

But i would never profess to have the presumptive arrogance to think that another believer needs to be prayed for or didn't have their own relationship with Christ just because they didn't see things my way!

So are you saying that you are a type of person that calls himself a christian and then chooses what parts of gods word to follow?

There's a rule called "thou shalt not judge", and that's why I said i'll pray for you. It's a sick world when people get angry when other people wish them well.

Nowhere did I personally say anything about MY way of thinking.

[TaylorW65]

So are you saying that you are a type of person that calls himself a christian and then chooses what parts of gods word to follow?

There's a rule called "thou shalt not judge", and that's why I said i'll pray for you. It's a sick world when people get angry when other people wish them well.

Nowhere did I personally say anything about MY way of thinking.

Forget it, I am sounding like a broken record on this site and I keep saying the same things over and over again. Read some of my other post.

We all pick and chose, that has been my observation after spending many years in fundamentalist churches. The diversity in doctrine is greatly varied and each and every person and church adheres to some doctrine which they agree with.

If you can't see that you pick and chose, but that you have done it differently, then your eyes are not open.

The point is everyone comes to their own understanding of doctrine, the Bible, God and religion.

I have seen this attitude in fundamentalism so much: each acts like if you don't adhere to the doctrines that they specifically adhere to then in their eyes you are rejecting God.

It gets to the point where every fundamentalist feels like they way they believe is exactly the same way God thinks and believes.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Well, it's your choice to not believe that Jesus is our savior and healer. If you want to live your life without that then go for it. I'll be praying for you though.

You'll be praying for the wrong thing. Taylor is very much a Christian.

Kind of a long leap you just made there.

[Koushi Shinigami]

So are you saying that you are a type of person that calls himself a christian and then chooses what parts of gods word to follow?

There's a rule called "thou shalt not judge", and that's why I said i'll pray for you. It's a sick world when people get angry when other people wish them well.

Nowhere did I personally say anything about MY way of thinking.


:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

[Koushi Shinigami]

When Jesus says he is the way and the truth and the life it sounds like metaphorical language to me.

How can a person be the way?

How can a person be the Life?

How can a person be the truth?

Those cannot be literally true!

I believe those words are to be interpreted symbolically and metaphorically, or more accurately, I believe those words need to be understood spiritually.

I don't think he meant that as meaning this Christian religion that sprung up in his name as being the only way to God.

Hi Taylor.

I agree with you on this as well. And once again, if you look further into the previous context, Jesus was discussing knowledge with the deciples. One asked him "How do we know how to get where you will be?" I interpret the passage that Jesus is saying, "My life here has been the example of what you need to do. Do what I have shown you and you'll be fine."

I also picture Jesus slapping his head and saying "OI, VEY!!!!! I've been walking around in the desert here with you guys for the last THREE YEARS!!!! And you STILL don't know what you are supposed to do?????"

[Mikko]

So are you saying that you are a type of person that calls himself a christian and then chooses what parts of gods word to follow?

There's a rule called "thou shalt not judge", and that's why I said i'll pray for you. It's a sick world when people get angry when other people wish them well.

Nowhere did I personally say anything about MY way of thinking.
To assume a person needs prayer because that person does not agree with one's assessment of the mind of God is, in itself, passing judgment.:)

[TaylorW65]

Hi Taylor.

I agree with you on this as well. And once again, if you look further into the previous context, Jesus was discussing knowledge with the deciples. One asked him "How do we know how to get where you will be?" I interpret the passage that Jesus is saying, "My life here has been the example of what you need to do. Do what I have shown you and you'll be fine."

I also picture Jesus slapping his head and saying "OI, VEY!!!!! I've been walking around in the desert here with you guys for the last THREE YEARS!!!! And you STILL don't know what you are supposed to do?????"

Thanks for understanding. Yes, that is the way I do see it too. It is nice when others do see what i mean!

[Koushi Shinigami]

Thanks for understanding. Yes, that is the way I do see it too. It is nice when others do see what i mean!

:hug:

[REM]

You'll be praying for the wrong thing. Taylor is very much a Christian.

Kind of a long leap you just made there.

He was saying in his own words that he does not believe the word of god by saying:


How can a person be the way?

How can a person be the Life?

How can a person be the truth?

It says in the bible that Jesus is the way, life, and truth. You have to be a complete idiot to call yourself a Chrisitan and not believe in gods word. Stop trying to put YOUR slant of the bible on MY opinion of your said slant. I'm done with this pointless scramble.

[Koushi Shinigami]

He was saying in his own words that he does not believe the word of god by saying:


How can a person be the way?

How can a person be the Life?

How can a person be the truth?

It says in the bible that Jesus is the way, life, and truth. You have to be a complete idiot to call yourself a Chrisitan and not believe in gods word. Stop trying to put YOUR slant of the bible on MY opinion of your said slant. I'm done with this pointless scramble.


Jesus held up the bread, blessed it and said "This is my body." Then he took the cup, blessed it and said "This is my blood."

Do you believe that he turned the bread into his own flesh and the wine into his own blood? For that is what the Bible says happened.


BTW, IIRC, TaylorW65..... not a guy.

[REM]

Jesus held up the bread, blessed it and said "This is my body." Then he took the cup, blessed it and said "This is my blood."

Do you believe that he turned the bread into his own flesh and the wine into his own blood? For that is what the Bible says happened.

OMG REALLY?! THE BIBLE ALSO HAS METAPHORS IN IT! Is obvious that you all will argue about which part of the sky is blue. Live your life of scoffing. I believe every word of the bible, the literal and metaphorical parts! I believe Jesus died for our sins, and that no man may enter into heaven unless through him.

Deny me before men and i will deny you before my father in heaven.


Life your life how you want. I don't care.

[Koushi Shinigami]

OMG REALLY?! THE BIBLE ALSO HAS METAPHORS IN IT! Is obvious that you all will argue about which part of the sky is blue. Live your life of scoffing. I believe every word of the bible, the literal and metaphorical parts! I believe Jesus died for our sins, and that no man may enter into heaven unless through him.

Deny me before men and i will deny you before my father in heaven.


Life your life how you want. I don't care.



So the passage you chose is literal and the one I chose is metaphorical....

Why?

[TaylorW65]

OMG REALLY?! THE BIBLE ALSO HAS METAPHORS IN IT! Is obvious that you all will argue about which part of the sky is blue. Live your life of scoffing. I believe every word of the bible, the literal and metaphorical parts! I believe Jesus died for our sins, and that no man may enter into heaven unless through him.

Deny me before men and i will deny you before my father in heaven.


Life your life how you want. I don't care.

We don't go to heaven unless we go through him? So is that literally or metaphorical?

Is "going through him" synonymous with joining the Christian religion that is here on earth?

[Thor]

Quick thought provoking question: If dinosaurs are supposed to be millions of years old, then how do they fit within a Bible that is claims to be only a few thousand? The Creation Science Evangelism (http://www.drdino.com/) program has come up with some good bible based answers that deserve to be seen.


Dinosaurs are in the Bible? Where? And please provide something other than the verses that mention "leviathan" and "behemoth". There is nothing in those verses that specifically identifies these creatures as dinosaurs. In fact, there is nothing that identifies them at all. For all we know, these creatures are fictitious.

[Scruffy]

When Jesus says he is the way and the truth and the life it sounds like metaphorical language to me.

How can a person be the way?

How can a person be the Life?

How can a person be the truth?

Those cannot be literally true!

I believe those words are to be interpreted symbolically and metaphorically, or more accurately, I believe those words need to be understood spiritually.

I don't think he meant that as meaning this Christian religion that sprung up in his name as being the only way to God.

Jesus' sacrifice for all mankind is the WAY to eternal life.

Jesus' sacrifice for all mankind has purchased for us eternal LIFE.

Jesus' sacrifice and words are the TRUTH. Not any other religion. There can only be ONE truth. It can't be many different things. Jesus is the TRUTH.

Jesus is literally the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. :)

[Scruffy]

Jesus held up the bread, blessed it and said "This is my body." Then he took the cup, blessed it and said "This is my blood."

Do you believe that he turned the bread into his own flesh and the wine into his own blood? For that is what the Bible says happened.


BTW, IIRC, TaylorW65..... not a guy.

Yes, it is the Body and Blood of Jesus. But we still see it as bread and wine.

[Scruffy]

Not so. Plenty of humans know how old the earth is. It's 4.5billion years old.

That's a good question.:)

Oh, were you there 4.5 billion years ago? How interesting. Tell us all about it.

Nobody knows how old the Earth is. Although there is evidence pointing to a young Earth.

Manmade dating techniques like radiometric dating is flawed. If they do carbon 14 on an object, and then do Potassium Argon testing on the same object, you will get hundreds of millions of years difference with the two tests. So either one is wrong or they both are.

Dinosaurs existed with man, and became extinct after the catastrophic flood during Noah's day. This flood was not like the floods we see today. I think people forget, it covered the whole Earth and killed all living creatures. Afterwards, the Earth was transformed. It was not like it was before the flood.

[TaylorW65]

Oh, were you there 4.5 billion years ago? How interesting. Tell us all about it.

Nobody knows how old the Earth is. Although there is evidence pointing to a young Earth.

Manmade dating techniques like radiometric dating is flawed. If they do carbon 14 on an object, and then do Potassium Argon testing on the same object, you will get hundreds of millions of years difference with the two tests. So either one is wrong or they both are.

Dinosaurs existed with man, and became extinct after the catastrophic flood during Noah's day. This flood was not like the floods we see today. I think people forget, it covered the whole Earth and killed all living creatures. Afterwards, the Earth was transformed. It was not like it was before the flood.

Why the need to take a story like Noah and the Ark and believe it to be historically accurate?

[Thor]

Oh, were you there 4.5 billion years ago? How interesting. Tell us all about it.


One does not have to have "been there" to know the approximate age of something if scientific dating methods are employed.

Nobody knows how old the Earth is.

Scientists have been able to determine the approximate age of the Earth.

Although there is evidence pointing to a young Earth.


Really? And what might this "evidence" be?

Manmade dating techniques like radiometric dating is flawed. If they do carbon 14 on an object, and then do Potassium Argon testing on the same object, you will get hundreds of millions of years difference with the two tests. So either one is wrong or they both are.


Potassium-argon dating is accurate from 4.3 billion years to about 100,000 years before the present. Carbon-14 dating is accurate from about 60,000 years ago and younger. So, if you are trying to date something that is a billion years old using both Potassium-argon dating and carbon-14 dating, your answers will be hundreds of millions of years apart because the carbon-14 dating will wildly INACCURATE the older you get past 60,000 years. I don't think this is difficult to understand.

Dinosaurs existed with man

And your evidence for this claim is.....?????

and became extinct after the catastrophic flood during Noah's day.

There is no evidence that there was ever a catastrophic worldwide flood.

This flood was not like the floods we see today. I think people forget, it covered the whole Earth and killed all living creatures. Afterwards, the Earth was transformed. It was not like it was before the flood.


A pretty cruel and inefficient method of ridding the world of "wickedness" if you ask me. And it worked so well! Because there is no wickedness in the world today, is there?

I fail to understand why this deity would kill EVERYBODY with the exception of Noah and his family. You expect me to believe that NOBODY else on the planet was worth saving? The children? The babies? EVERY adult was corrupt? This makes no sense whatsoever.

There is no evidence anywhere that supports even a shred of this story.

[Mikko]

Oh, were you there 4.5 billion years ago? How interesting. Tell us all about it.
Wasn't there. My reading skills are pretty good, though.

Nobody knows how old the Earth is.
Not so.
Although there is evidence pointing to a young Earth.
Absolutely false.

Manmade dating techniques like radiometric dating is flawed. If they do carbon 14 on an object, and then do Potassium Argon testing on the same object, you will get hundreds of millions of years difference with the two tests. So either one is wrong or they both are.
Radiometric dating is by no means the only measurement technique by which the age of the earth, 4.5 billion years, has been determined.

Dinosaurs existed with man, and became extinct after the catastrophic flood during Noah's day.
Absolute rubbish. The dinosaurs were extinct millions of years before the firs human ever drew breath.
This flood was not like the floods we see today. I think people forget, it covered the whole Earth and killed all living creatures. Afterwards, the Earth was transformed. It was not like it was before the flood.
The flood of Noah's day never occurred. It is a story, nothing more.

[Mikko]

Why the need to take a story like Noah and the Ark and believe it to be historically accurate?

If one's entire understanding of the nature of existence hinges on the literal truth of the Bible, one has to believe those stories are historically accurate. There's no wiggle room.

[TaylorW65]

What I find ironic is Christians are scoffed at for taking the Bible literally and knowing there was a flood, the Ten Commandments, etc. Yet non-believers are just as dead set against the possibility of the actual existence of such historic times. Open your mind to the possibility and do research before you offer your close-minded "opinions". Archaeologists are finding proof every year. They have discovered signs of the Flood at the Black Sea, the biblical Mt. Sinai, which is not in Saudia Arabia. You have the Dead Sea scrolls as well. So how can anyone say with certainty that the Bible is only a "fairy tale"? I think such people have blinders on and see only what they wish to.

First of all, I am a Christian, albeit a liberal one. I have done much reading by Liberal Biblical scholars who do not take the Bible literally over the last 18 years and find their research to be very credible. I had gone to fundamentalists Churches for many years and was taught the literal interpretation of the Bible. I would hardly say my mind is closed. In fact when I was a Fundie my mind was closed but new information opened it.

There is archeological evidence to a great flood in the Mediterranean Sea. Even the ancient literary classic the Epic of Gilgamesh, which features a great flood, is another testament to one occurring. However, the evidence does not point to Noah and the Ark.

That is a matter of faith. For me the belief that God told a person to build an Ark and could somehow fit all those animals into a boat is beyond plausible. That is why this story is told to children. It sounds like a fairytale and it is told to young people who are still capable of magical thinking.

Generally the story from Genesis chapter 6 that everyone is told since childhood is with Noah being commanded by God to bring in two of every animal. But most don't people don't here about Chapter 7 when God commands Noah to bring in seven of every animal.


2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
Oh, and now so Biblical literalists can fit science into their literal Biblical world view we're supposed to believe dinosaurs were also on the Ark?!

Also, the character of God is very strange. He sounds very human. A God that grows weary of us sounds like a god who is susceptible to limited human emotions! Also, God is supposed to be all-knowing, didn't he know before he sent the flood that he would have a change of heart after the flood?

The story is a myth, a fable. That doesn't mean the story does not have value and a great lesson to learn and a message to teach. Both those lessons are never taught when all Christians Fundamentalists do with that story is to use it to justify the story as being historical and factual.

For myself asking me to believe literally in the story of Noah and the Ark is like asking me to return to an earlier developmental stage and have me believe in Santa Claus once again.

[Thor]

What I find ironic is Christians are scoffed at for taking the Bible literally and knowing there was a flood, the Ten Commandments, etc. Yet non-believers are just as dead set against the possibility of the actual existence of such historic times.

I don't think non-believers are "dead set against the possibility". There is simply no evidence that confirms the veracity of Biblical tales. If there were strong evidence to support the story of Noah's flood, for example, I would have to believe that it's true.

Open your mind to the possibility and do research before you offer your close-minded "opinions".

Our "opinions" are based upon evidence (or the lack thereof).

Archaeologists are finding proof every year.

Please cite a reference that supports this statement.

They have discovered signs of the Flood at the Black Sea

Reference, please.

So how can anyone say with certainty that the Bible is only a "fairy tale"?

I don't think anyone on this forum has said the Bible is a "fairy tale". Such a comment would be disrespectful and would probably get you banned. What we have said is that the stories in the Bible are unsupported by tangible evidence. Big difference.

I think such people have blinders on and see only what they wish to.


Considering that people like Ken Ham talk about seeing the world through "Bible glasses", I think this comment describes some believers far better than it does non-believers.

[Mikko]

What I find ironic is Christians are scoffed at for taking the Bible literally and knowing there was a flood, the Ten Commandments, etc. Yet non-believers are just as dead set against the possibility of the actual existence of such historic times.
Evidence points to the fact that they didn't exist.
Open your mind to the possibility and do research before you offer your close-minded "opinions".
Already did.
Archaeologists are finding proof every year. They have discovered signs of the Flood at the Black Sea,
Not a global flood.
the biblical Mt. Sinai, which is not in Saudia Arabia.
No one ever said it was.
You have the Dead Sea scrolls as well. So how can anyone say with certainty that the Bible is only a "fairy tale"? I think such people have blinders on and see only what they wish to.
Well, that door certainly swings both ways.:)

[Scruffy]

Stated by TaylorW65, "That is a matter of faith. For me the belief that God told a person to build an Ark and could somehow fit all those animals into a boat is beyond plausible. That is why this story is told to children. It sounds like a fairytale and it is told to young people who are still capable of magical thinking."



Well then Taylor, you must not ever have visited the zoo. We have all kinds of animals that fit in one zoo!

The ark was not small......


Noah's Ark was taller than a 3-story building and had a deck area the size of 36 lawn tennis courts. Its length was 300 cubits (450 feet, or 135 meters); its width was 50 cubits (75 feet, or 22.5 meters); it had three stories and its height was 30 cubits (45 feet, or 13.5 meters).http://www.creationtips.com/Pix/arksize.gif
Noah's Ark was huge! If you wrongly imagine the Ark looked like some of those little cartoon boats in children's story books, with a couple of elephants' trunks and giraffes' necks sticking out the top, think again.
Genesis 6:15 in the Bible tells us the Ark's dimensions were at least 135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high! It could have been larger, because several larger-sized cubits were used. But the 45-centimeter (18-inch) cubit is long enough to show the enormous size of the Ark.
(A cubit was the length of a man's arm from fingertips to elbow.)
Higher than a 3-story building!

Noah's Ark was three stories high (Genesis 6:16). Its total deck area was equivalent to the area of about 20 standard college basketball courts or 36 lawn tennis courts. The world had to wait until AD 1884 before the Ark's size was exceeded, when the Italian liner Eturia was built.
The rectangular dimensions of the Ark show an advanced design in ship-building. Its length of six times its width and 10 times its height would have made it amazingly stable on the ocean. Remember it was made more for floating than sailing, because it wasn't headed anywhere. The Ark was made to withstand a turbulent ocean voyage, not to be at a certain place at a certain time.

[TaylorW65]

Stated by TaylorW65, "That is a matter of faith. For me the belief that God told a person to build an Ark and could somehow fit all those animals into a boat is beyond plausible. That is why this story is told to children. It sounds like a fairytale and it is told to young people who are still capable of magical thinking."

You must not ever have visited the zoo. We have all kinds of animals that fit in one zoo!

The ark was not small.......

Noah's Ark was taller than a 3-story building and had a deck area the size of 36 lawn tennis courts. Its length was 300 cubits (450 feet, or 135 meters); its width was 50 cubits (75 feet, or 22.5 meters); it had three stories and its height was 30 cubits (45 feet, or 13.5 meters).http://www.creationtips.com/Pix/arksize.gif
Noah's Ark was huge! If you wrongly imagine the Ark looked like some of those little cartoon boats in children's story books, with a couple of elephants' trunks and giraffes' necks sticking out the top, think again.
Genesis 6:15 in the Bible tells us the Ark's dimensions were at least 135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high! It could have been larger, because several larger-sized cubits were used. But the 45-centimeter (18-inch) cubit is long enough to show the enormous size of the Ark.
(A cubit was the length of a man's arm from fingertips to elbow.)
Higher than a 3-story building!

Noah's Ark was three stories high (Genesis 6:16). Its total deck area was equivalent to the area of about 20 standard college basketball courts or 36 lawn tennis courts. The world had to wait until AD 1884 before the Ark's size was exceeded, when the Italian liner Eturia was built.
The rectangular dimensions of the Ark show an advanced design in ship-building. Its length of six times its width and 10 times its height would have made it amazingly stable on the ocean. Remember it was made more for floating than sailing, because it wasn't headed anywhere. The Ark was made to withstand a turbulent ocean voyage, not to be at a certain place at a certain time.

The Ark may not have been small but if you want to get literal. Genesis says 7 of every crawling thing upon the earth plus two of every unclean animal. Given that there are a number of sources which mention different number of species those numbers are still incredibly high.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/FelixNisimov.shtml

Lets go with a very low number, 2 million species. Let's say 80% of that number are insects so we will discount those. That still leaves us with 1.6 million species. Now multiply that by 9. (7 of every animal plus two unclean animals). That is 14.4 million animals on the Ark. I didn't even count the dinosaurs!!! A small family couldn't even care for that number!!!

It is not plausible!!!

[captusa]

Oh, were you there 4.5 billion years ago? How interesting. Tell us all about it.
Oh, were you there for Noah's flood ? How interesting. Tell us all about it.

Nobody knows how old the Earth is. Although there is evidence pointing to a young Earth.
4.5 billion years is a fairly well accepted estimate.
There may be evidence for a young Earth.
Maybe even as young as 3.9 billion years.

Manmade dating techniques like radiometric dating is flawed. If they do carbon 14 on an object, and then do Potassium Argon testing on the same object, you will get hundreds of millions of years difference with the two tests. So either one is wrong or they both are.

If you used ruler to measure the length of a sheet of paper you would get about 11".
If you used an automobile odometer to measure the distance from N.Y.C. to L.A. it would get about 3,000 mmiles.
If you used a odometer to measure the length of a sheet of paper and a ruler to measure the distance from N.Y.C. to L.A. you would get a difference of similar magnitude.



Dinosaurs existed with man, and became extinct after the catastrophic flood during Noah's day. This flood was not like the floods we see today. I think people forget, it covered the whole Earth and killed all living creatures. Afterwards, the Earth was transformed. It was not like it was before the flood.

Alley Oop was a comic strip not and the Flintstones was not a documentary.
There isn't any other evidence of dinosaurs living with humans nor of the world being under water in the last billion years.

[Scruffy]

The Ark may not have been small but if you want to get literal. Genesis says 7 of every crawling thing upon the earth plus two of every unclean animal. Given that there are a number of sources which mention different number of species those numbers are still incredibly high.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/FelixNisimov.shtml

Lets go with a very low number, 2 million species. Let's say 80% of that number are insects so we will discount those. That still leaves us with 1.6 million species. Now multiply that by 9. (7 of every animal plus two unclean animals). That is 14.4 million animals on the Ark. I didn't even count the dinosaurs!!! A small family couldn't even care for that number!!!

It is not plausible!!!

I think your numbers are way over exaggerated!! Here's some reality for you...............


John Woodmorappe, author of the definitive Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, estimated that only about 15% of the animals on the ark would have been larger than a sheep. This figure does not take into account the possibility that God may have brought Noah “infant” animals, which can be significantly smaller than adult animals.

How many animals were on the ark? Woodmorappe estimates about 16,000 “kinds.” What is a “kind”? The designation of “kind” is thought to be much broader than the designation “species.” Even as there are 400-something dog breeds but they all belong to one species (Canis familiaris), in the same way many species can belong to one kind. Some think that the designation “genus” may be somewhat close to the Biblical “kind.”

[captusa]

The Ark may not have been small but if you want to get literal. Genesis says 7 of every crawling thing upon the earth plus two of every unclean animal. Given that there are a number of sources which mention different number of species those numbers are still incredibly high.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/FelixNisimov.shtml

Lets go with a very low number, 2 million species. Let's say 80% of that number are insects so we will discount those. That still leaves us with 1.6 million species. Now multiply that by 9. (7 of every animal plus two unclean animals). That is 14.4 million animals on the Ark. I didn't even count the dinosaurs!!! A small family couldn't even care for that number!!!

It is not plausible!!!



One pair of every crawling thing (ungulates are the only clean animals.

14 of every clean animal and every bird. (7 pair of clean animal)

Still
Given the size of the ark you would have needed at least one or two arks for the insects and a few for the rodents unless the Noahs threw several generations of rodents overboard every few weeks.

[khigh]

What I find ironic is Christians are scoffed at for taking the Bible literally and knowing there was a flood, the Ten Commandments, etc. Yet non-believers are just as dead set against the possibility of the actual existence of such historic times.

I do not believe in the historical accuracy of everything in the Bible. It was a book written by fallible men. Same as you probably believe that the Vedas are. Even I know that the religious texts that I follow and now live my life by were written by people: the Vedas and the Upanishads.

Open your mind to the possibility and do research before you offer your close-minded "opinions".

Then, if I open my mind to the possibilities of the Bible being historically accurate, will you then open your mind to the possibility that Shiva and Brahman and their 10s of thousands of incarnations are real?

Archaeologists are finding proof every year. They have discovered signs of the Flood at the Black Sea, the biblical Mt. Sinai, which is not in Saudia Arabia. You have the Dead Sea scrolls as well. So how can anyone say with certainty that the Bible is only a "fairy tale"? I think such people have blinders on and see only what they wish to.

Will you please provide me with any scientific proof other than the Bible? How can you, again, say with certainty that Brahman did not speak with the warrior and provide him with the way to end the cycles of birth and death and reincarnation?

[TaylorW65]

I think your numbers are way over exaggerated!! Here's some reality for you...............


John Woodmorappe, author of the definitive Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, estimated that only about 15% of the animals on the ark would have been larger than a sheep. This figure does not take into account the possibility that God may have brought Noah “infant” animals, which can be significantly smaller than adult animals.

How many animals were on the ark? Woodmorappe estimates about 16,000 “kinds.” What is a “kind”? The designation of “kind” is thought to be much broader than the designation “species.” Even as there are 400-something dog breeds but they all belong to one species (Canis familiaris), in the same way many species can belong to one kind. Some think that the designation “genus” may be somewhat close to the Biblical “kind.”

I don't think my numbers are exaggerated. So when you say 16,000 kinds. Is that the total number of animals on the Ark or 16,000 different "kinds" multiplied by 9 (7 animals of every kind plus 2 of each of the unclean animals)?

But even with 16,000 as a final number (which no way accounts for all the animals plus dinosaurs on the earth) there is no way a small family could take care of that many animals. They could not possible feed and care and clean up after that many animals!

The story is mythology and meant to be that way.

[captusa]

I think your numbers are way over exaggerated!! Here's some reality for you...............


John Woodmorappe, author of the definitive Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, estimated that only about 15% of the animals on the ark would have been larger than a sheep. This figure does not take into account the possibility that God may have brought Noah “infant” animals, which can be significantly smaller than adult animals.

How many animals were on the ark? Woodmorappe estimates about 16,000 “kinds.” What is a “kind”? The designation of “kind” is thought to be much broader than the designation “species.” Even as there are 400-something dog breeds but they all belong to one species (Canis familiaris), in the same way many species can belong to one kind. Some think that the designation “genus” may be somewhat close to the Biblical “kind.”



I don't know who John Woodmorappe is but he is wrong.

Even with the limit of "kind" the number of species would be in closer tom 100,000
Since there is no such thing as evolution you would need one of each specie that could not interbreed with other species.
1 pair of cannis familiaris (you could even start with just 1 pair of cannis lupos since domestic dogs decended from wolves with no speciazation given a few millenia)

but you would still need pairs of coyotes, African pack dogs, Indian wild dogs, several specie of foxes, jackels and other different species of species of canines that cannnot interbreed.
A few different pairs of different species of elephants, rhinoceri, hippopotami.
Several specie of lions, tigers, leopards. mountain lions, lynx, bobcats, jaguars...
All that had to be present since they cannot interbreed to produce fertile offspring.
Add several species of zebras that do not interbreed, a couple hundred species of deer, bison, buffalo, moose, elk, cattle, goats, sheep (14 of each specie of them since they are all clean animals)
Consider that group to be 15% of the species and the room they would occupy plus the necessay food.
Actually those animals woul be far less that 15% of the species because of the 1,000s of different species of rodents, insects and birds (14 each bird).
Noah would have needed a fleet of arks.

[Scruffy]

Scientific evidence for a young Earth.......

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp


But I know the evolutionists won't read it. They are scared of the truth.

One of my favorite evidence is the DNA.............

8. Biological material decays too fast.

http://www.icr.org/i/articles/imp/imp-384f.jpgNatural radioactivity, mutations, and decay degrade DNA and other biological material rapidly. Measurements of the mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA recently forced researchers to revise the age of “mitochondrial Eve” from a theorized 200,000 years down to possibly as low as 6,000 years.17 DNA experts insist that DNA cannot exist in natural environments longer than 10,000 years, yet intact strands of DNA appear to have been recovered from fossils allegedly much older: Neandertal bones, insects in amber, and even from dinosaur fossils.18 Bacteria allegedly 250 million years old apparently have been revived with no DNA damage.19 Soft tissue and blood cells from a dinosaur have astonished experts.20

[TaylorW65]

Scientific evidence for a young Earth.......

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp


But I know the evolutionists won't read it. They are scared of the truth.

One of my favorite evidences is the DNA.............

8. Biological material decays too fast.

http://www.icr.org/i/articles/imp/imp-384f.jpgNatural radioactivity, mutations, and decay degrade DNA and other biological material rapidly. Measurements of the mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA recently forced researchers to revise the age of “mitochondrial Eve” from a theorized 200,000 years down to possibly as low as 6,000 years.17 DNA experts insist that DNA cannot exist in natural environments longer than 10,000 years, yet intact strands of DNA appear to have been recovered from fossils allegedly much older: Neandertal bones, insects in amber, and even from dinosaur fossils.18 Bacteria allegedly 250 million years old apparently have been revived with no DNA damage.19 Soft tissue and blood cells from a dinosaur have astonished experts.20

I have never understood the need to twist modern science to where it would fit a literal Biblical interpretation.

That is poor scientific methodology. Literalists have a defined boundary and none of their research is allowed to contradict a literal reading of the Bible.

So Biblical oriented scientists don't look objectively at the evidence they spend their time twisting the evidence to fit their world view.

[Scruffy]

I have never understood the need to twist modern science to where it would fit a literal Biblical interpretation.

That is poor scientific methodology. Literalists have a defined boundary and none of their research is allowed to contradict a literal reading of the Bible.

So Biblical oriented scientists don't look objectively at the evidence they spend their time twisting the evidence to fit their world view.

Evolutionists are twisting the truth to fit Darwinism. If you do not want to open your eyes and look at ALL evidence, then that's your choice.

[TaylorW65]

Evolutionists are twisting the truth to fit Darwinism. If you do not want to open your eyes and look at ALL evidence, then that's your choice.

People who study anthropology and archeology have developed hypothesis and so far not one legitimate scientist who can stand the scrutiny of academic peer review has ever been able to replace theories on Evolution with a different hypothesis.

If a scientist that can stand the scrutiny of peer review has a more accurate theory I'm sure we would have heard of it by now.

My question to you is why does science threaten your faith?

[Scruffy]

People who study anthropology and archeology have developed hypothesis and so far not one legitimate scientist who can stand the scrutiny of academic peer review has ever been able to replace theories on Evolution with a different hypothesis.

If a scientist that can stand the scrutiny of peer review has a more accurate theory I'm sure we would have heard of it by now.

My question to you is why does science threaten your faith?

Honest science does not threaten my faith. But deceptive science used to indoctrinate people into Atheism, and Humanism destroys people's souls and pulls them away from their Creator. It almost destroyed mine, until I searched for the truth.

I have looked at both sides of the issue, and so much of evolution is refuted. This is not the 1800's anymore. Evolution is a 19th century belief that modern science has dissolved. It was believable back then, but now in the 21st century we know better.

Many, many leading evolutionists now say that Darwinism is an impossibility.

But this fallacy will still be in publications because of the destruction it does to Judeo-Christianity. The fraud of Piltdown man was in publications for 40 years, and taught in schools even though it was proven to be a fraud.

But I don't know why I bother telling you this, because I think you want to believe who you choose to believe. Whatever you feel comfortable with. You are not looking at the facts.

[Scruffy]

People need to stop and ask themselves, if DNA experts insist that DNA cannot exist in natural environments longer than 10,000 years, yet intact strands of DNA are found from fossils, ALLEGEDLY much older: Neandertal bones, insects in amber, and even from dinosaur fossils......How can this be???? In bones and fossils that they say are millions of years old???

Please ask yourselves that. Please wake up.

[khigh]

People need to stop and ask themselves, if DNA experts insist that DNA cannot exist in natural environments longer than 10,000 years, yet intact strands of DNA are found from fossils, ALLEGEDLY much older: Neandertal bones, insects in amber, and even from dinosaur fossils......How can this be???? In bones and fossils that they say are millions of years old???

Please ask yourselves that. Please wake up.

Natural environments is the key phrase. Probably the same reason a mummy can stay intact for thousands of years in the desert and a human body can decay in weeks or a few short years in the swamp lands. Preservation is key and so are environmental changes.

[TaylorW65]

Honest science does not threaten my faith. But deceptive science used to indoctrinate people into Atheism, and Humanism destroys people's souls and pulls them away from their Creator. It almost destroyed mine, until I searched for the truth.

What do you consider honest science? Honestly, I don't think the agenda of science is to undermine people's faith. I really do not believe that is their motive.

I have looked at both sides of the issue, and so much of evolution is refuted. This is not the 1800's anymore. Evolution is a 19th century belief that modern science has dissolved. It was believable back then, but now in the 21st century we know better.I would like to see some scientific journals that have been academically peer reviewed which refute evolution. What theory has replaced it?

Many, many leading evolutionists now say that Darwinism is an impossibility.

Link please.

But this fallacy will still be in publications because of the destruction it does to Judeo-Christianity. The fraud of Piltdown man was in publications for 40 years, and taught in schools even though it was proven to be a fraud.But Piltdown man is no longer taught. I thought Jesus said that "on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." If what he says is true certainly his Church will prevail against Darwinism?

But I don't know why I bother telling you this, because I think you want to believe who you choose to believe. Whatever you feel comfortable with. You are not looking at the facts.The door swings both ways.

[Scruffy]

Natural environments is the key phrase. Probably the same reason a mummy can stay intact for thousands of years in the desert and a human body can decay in weeks or a few short years in the swamp lands. Preservation is key and so are environmental changes.

That is one lame excuse! Bacteria that is allegedly 250 million years old, has DNA with no damage???? Oh please!

You'll believe that, but weren't you one of the posters that found it hard to grasp that God purged evil from the Earth with a catastrophic flood?

[TaylorW65]

That is one lame excuse! Bacteria that is allegedly 250 million years old, has DNA with no damage???? Oh please!

You'll believe that, but weren't you one of the posters that found it hard to grasp that God purged evil from the Earth with a catastrophic flood?

If God is so loving and powerful and was disappointed in mankind why not just wave a finger and erase us all in an instant? To cause a giant flood to cause millions of people and other animals to drown is very cruel.

If God is all knowing why didn't he know before he caused a flood that killed millions of people that he would change his mind and regret what he did? That doesn't sound like someone who knows the future!

[khigh]

That is one lame excuse! Bacteria that is allegedly 250 million years old, has DNA with no damage???? Oh please!

You'll believe that, but weren't you one of the posters that found it hard to grasp that God purged evil from the Earth with a catastrophic flood?

The only reason I find it hard to grasp that God purged evil from Earth with a global flood is because of one thing: I am a Hindu and nothing about it is mentioned in the Vedas or the Upanishads, which are my religious texts. There is nothing mentioned in science that proves or disproves the theory of a catastrophic flood other than the fact that that many animals could never have been put on a vessel and survive. There is nothing to suggest that evolution is false, for me either. Even in my religious texts, we are told to question and ponder the universe around us.

I cannot fully understand how the world has evolved or how they are finding bacteria that is 250 million years old. It is not my field. That does not mean I cannot question what I hear. That is what Brahman tells me to do.

[Thor]

How many animals were on the ark? Woodmorappe estimates about 16,000 “kinds.” What is a “kind”? The designation of “kind” is thought to be much broader than the designation “species.” Even as there are 400-something dog breeds but they all belong to one species (Canis familiaris), in the same way many species can belong to one kind. Some think that the designation “genus” may be somewhat close to the Biblical “kind.”

So, there was only one pair of "bears" on the ark? Not a pair of polar bears and a pair of grizzly bears and a pair of black bears, etc..? But then where did the different types of bears come from? You don't believe they evolved, right?

And you say there were 16,000 "kinds" on the ark.

Okay, let's run with that.

Each type of animal would have required daily care (feeding, cleaning their living space, etc.). There were supposedly 8 people on the ark. This means that each person would have had to care for 2,000 types of animal (4,000 individual animals!) every day. Let's say that each person worked 16 hours a day. This means that each person had to feed and care for 125 types of animal every hour! This is caring for one type of animal faster than once every 30 seconds.

Does this sound plausible to you? Because it sounds absurd to me.

[Thor]

Well then Taylor, you must not ever have visited the zoo. We have all kinds of animals that fit in one zoo!


You're seriously trying to compare a zoo that can take up hundreds (even thousands) of acres with a boat?

The ark was not small......


Noah's Ark was taller than a 3-story building and had a deck area the size of 36 lawn tennis courts. Its length was 300 cubits (450 feet, or 135 meters); its width was 50 cubits (75 feet, or 22.5 meters); it had three stories and its height was 30 cubits (45 feet, or 13.5 meters).
Noah's Ark was huge

And yet, this "huge" boat was built by a handful of people using handtools? Cutting their own wood? Dragging huge beams into place? This makes sense?

[Thor]

Scientific evidence for a young Earth.......

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp



"Scientific evidence" at the answersingenesis website? :)):)):)):))

Can you cite any evidence from a LEGITIMATE scientific source?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Originally Posted by Scruffy
Well then Taylor, you must not ever have visited the zoo. We have all kinds of animals that fit in one zoo!

Yes, there are zoos with many different kinds of animals. But is there one zoo with EVERY different kind of animal?

[Tim]

Yes, there are zoos with many different kinds of animals. But is there one zoo with EVERY different kind of animal?

And two of some and seven of others... that's a lot of animals!

[Marleysdaddy]

150 years ago, Darwin's theory could be more accepted because they didn't have the science we have today. Now with all the advancements we have in DNA, the atom, etc.. we are finding out that evolution could not have happened.
(emphasis mine)

Can you provide a link to a legitimate peer-reviewed scientific source that claims that "evolution could not have happened"?

Thanks in advance

[Thor]

Yes, there are zoos with many different kinds of animals. But is there one zoo with EVERY different kind of animal?

Good point! I wonder how large that zoo would be....

[Koushi Shinigami]

Good point! I wonder how large that zoo would be....

'Bout as big as a planet..... ;)

[Marleysdaddy]

Hebrews 9:27 clearly refutes the doctrine of reincarnation "it is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgment." Therefore, reincarnation is at odds with Christianity. In fact, the Bible clearly teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
That's great...for people who believe in the Bible.
To each their own religion, however this forum is for Christians.
Incorrect - this forum is for everyone who behaves his or herself.
Not Hinduism. Brahman has no place here.
That decision is not yours to make - we have occasionally had Hindus post here
Why am I having to defend archaeologist's discoveries relating to the Bible, God's Holy Word if we are all Christians?
1) We're not all Christians
2) Apologetics is a good thing...keeps the brain a-workin'

[RayMan]

<snip> To each their own religion, however this forum is for Christians. Not Hinduism. Brahman has no place here.

<snip> Why am I having to defend archaeologist's discoveries relating to the Bible, God's Holy Word if we are all Christians? Anytime a discovery is made, it makes big news in the Christian community.

Uh, no, this is not a forum for Christians only. This is a RELIGIOUS Forum. Anyone with an interest in any religion is welcome to post here.

We are not all Christians here. I am and you are but a lot of the folks here aren't and they have the same right to share their views as you have to share yours.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Then the forum being called "For all Christians" is a typo? My apologies. You can understand my confusion as to the tone of chats. I wasn't aware Hinduism fell under the Christianity. :eek:

This is not a 'Forum'. This is a thread in the forum. And what you refer to is simply the title of the thread.

And anyone of any faith is always welcome to post in any thread in this forum. As long as they observe the Rules of Respect and the Terms of Service for this board.

[Marleysdaddy]

Then the forum being called "For all Christians" is a typo?
'For All Christians' is the title of this thread...this thread lives in the Religion Forum.

Any member who follows the Rules of Respect (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=68516) is welcome to post in any and all threads in the Religion Forum

[Marleysdaddy]

This is not a 'Forum'. This is a thread in the forum. And what you refer to is simply the title of the thread.

And anyone of any faith is always welcome to post in any thread in this forum. As long as they observe the Rules of Respect and the Terms of Service for this board.

Shoot you're fast :mrgreen:

[Greyclouds]

People need to stop and ask themselves, if DNA experts insist that DNA cannot exist in natural environments longer than 10,000 years, yet intact strands of DNA are found from fossils, ALLEGEDLY much older: Neandertal bones, insects in amber, and even from dinosaur fossils......How can this be???? In bones and fossils that they say are millions of years old???

Please ask yourselves that. Please wake up.

The DNA half life estimate is just that: an estimate. It's also based on the supposed half life of DNA in Tris EDTA at about -20 degrees C.

Fossils can normally be found completely dessicated (devoid of water) and pervaded with silicates. DNA has a much longer half-life in dryer conditions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8TsDC2OOvbYC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=DNA+preserved+in+silicates&source=bl&ots=5P-XkqH7nB&sig=Sgg4BENGNDi-qZk0U4OBIuKRgWw&hl=en&ei=F7G-SfTzIdeMtgfo-7X4Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

The Neanderthal donor bone fragment was 36,000 years old, and multiple copies of the genome had to be used to decipher the entire code.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/316/5827/967a

[Values]

Then the forum being called "For all Christians" is a typo? My apologies. You can understand my confusion as to the tone of chats. I wasn't aware Hinduism fell under the Christianity. :eek:

Truth be known this is actually a religion forum on a poitical website where at any given moment you will find more atheists on the religion forum than everyone else combined. It is an interesting phenomena that has been bantered about as of late.
Some think that they are here to learn and talk religion while others seem to think there may be another deeper meaning to their posting here.
More to come I am sure, stay tuned.

[Chuangtzu]

How does one pray to science? What are the correct gestures? The mechanics of that sort of prayer?

[Marleysdaddy]

Truth be known this is actually a religion forum on a poitical [sic] website where at any given moment you will find more atheists on the religion forum than everyone else combined. (emphasis mine)
I seriously doubt the emphasized portion...do you have any evidence of it?

(Are you aware that you can look at the bottom of the RF "homepage" and see who is in the RF?)

Some think that they are here to learn and talk religion
'Some' being almost every member of the RF
while others seem to think there may be another deeper meaning to their posting here.
'others' being you

[TaylorW65]

I have no problem with other people's religions. It is not for me to judge. I assumed this "thread' was Christian only. So don't get me confused with someone who touts their own religion over others. Christianity is my personal belief and I am well aware others feel differently. So please quit beating a dead horse. I don't need to be put in my place.

The point is that on a public forum you really can't place a rule that only members of a certain faith can respond to a thread.

[Values]

(emphasis mine)
I seriously doubt the emphasized portion...do you have any evidence of it?

(Are you aware that you can look at the bottom of the RF "homepage" and see who is in the RF?)


'Some' being almost every member of the RF

'others' being you

There have been many times when I have been posting here and of the names at the bottom, the self-proclaimed atheists outnumbered everyone else, and that does not include those who may have been atheist that I didn't know yet.

Unloose those panties you've bound up, sheesh!:razz:

[captusa]

I can't speak for everyone, but I can say that the particular church that I mentioned does NOT distort any information to fit an agenda.
That is your opinion.

You push your opinion as truth... How is that logical? Again it is your opinion that the bible isn't literally true. I think it will be seen and proven when the day comes.
That's your opinion.

Originally Posted by TaylorW65
Oh, btw, I never met one person who prays to science.

I have. Every day. If you are an atheist, then I would assume the only thing you believe in is Science. (science btw is a tool made from MAN. It's a good tool that is more often misused more than used for good.)

If you do not want non-Christians on the thread, do not make unwarranted denograting generalizations or assumptions about Atheists or other non-Christians.
I have never prayed to science.
I have never seen an Atheist pray to science.

I doubt if someone opened a thread on the general forum for non-Christians only it would be allowed for that thread to be filled with denograting generalizations about Christianity and Christians.



This is not a debate topic. Either you want to look at the material from the christian side of the science, or you don't. If you do not, then don't post here. Create your own topic if you wish.

A lot of Christian scientists (not Christian Scientists) would resent what you consider to be the Christian side of science and that you claim to represent the Christian side of science.
Many have already posted.

[Koushi Shinigami]

There have been many times when I have been posting here and of the names at the bottom, the self-proclaimed atheists outnumbered everyone else, and that does not include those who may have been atheist that I didn't know yet.

Unloose those panties you've bound up, sheesh!:razz:

I'd like to point out that there is an option in the users' control panel that allows one to choose to not have their login name displayed in that area at the bottom of the page that you mention. So, I'd be careful going by that.

[captusa]

There have been many times when I have been posting here and of the names at the bottom, the self-proclaimed atheists outnumbered everyone else, and that does not include those who may have been atheist that I didn't know yet.

Unloose those panties you've bound up, sheesh!:razz:

I have been on the RF when there were only a few other posters.
I have no doubt when I was one of 3 on the forum that one of the other posters may have been another Atheist making the the forum 66 2/3% Atheist.
SO WHAT!

[khigh]

I have no problem with other people's religions. It is not for me to judge. I assumed this "thread' was Christian only. So don't get me confused with someone who touts their own religion over others. Christianity is my personal belief and I am well aware others feel differently. So please quit beating a dead horse. I don't need to be put in my place.

I'm probably the only Hindu posting on this forum and I truly hope you were not talking about me here. I do not "tout" my religion over all others. It is part of our beliefs to not proselytize. I am just as welcome here as you are, I believe and hope!

[Values]

I'm probably the only Hindu posting on this forum and I truly hope you were not talking about me here. I do not "tout" my religion over all others. It is part of our beliefs to not proselytize. I am just as welcome here as you are, I believe and hope!

I didn't see any reference to Hindu Faith in his post.

[khigh]

I didn't see any reference to Hindu Faith in his post.

How about this one?


Hebrews 9:27 clearly refutes the doctrine of reincarnation "it is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgment." Therefore, reincarnation is at odds with Christianity. In fact, the Bible clearly teaches that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). To each their own religion, however this forum is for Christians. Not Hinduism. Brahman has no place here. With reincarnation, we have no reason to figure out the meaning of life with respect to God and fellow man. We can just feel our way through our existence here on Earth, and if need be, get it right the next time. And as for providing reference on biblical discoveries - prove you're not closed-minded and look for them yourself. Why am I having to defend archaeologist's discoveries relating to the Bible, God's Holy Word if we are all Christians? Anytime a discovery is made, it makes big news in the Christian community.

Same thread as this one and seems like an attack to me.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50918211&postcount=1

[captusa]

How about this one?



Same thread as this one and seems like an attack to me.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50918211&postcount=1

The Moderators make the rules not the posters.
Poster REM wished to have a thread where Christians discuss the the beginning and meaning of life.
I don't think jacksswanson intentionally meant to denograte Hinduism but thought that the Hindu concept would not be relevent to the discussion.
He is not a Moderator so he does not decide what is relevent to the discussion.
Several people who do not share jacksswanson's or REM's beliefs (including Christians) have commented that their ideas were misrepresented.
If you feel he has misrepresented yours and you would like to correct him you would be posting in the same vein as others.
If you wish to make other comments, fine.
I welcome you to the forum.(unofficially since I am just another honored guest.)

[khigh]

The Moderators make the rules not the posters.
Poster jacksswanson wished to have a thread where Christians discuss the the beginning and meaning of life.
I don't think he intentionally meant to denograte Hinduism but thought that the Hindu concept would not be relevent to the discussion.
He is not a Moderator so he does not decide what is relevent to the discussion.
Several people who do not share jacksswanson's beliefs (including Christians) have commented that jacksswanson misrepresented their ideas.
If you feel he has misrepresented yours and you would like to correct him you would be posting in the same vein as others.
If you wish to make other comments, fine.
I welcome you to the forum.(unofficially since I am just another honored guest.)

Thank you for the welcome. I have posted what I believe on this subject and I know I should feel no offense to what he has posted. I just thought that he posted that because of what I said earlier in the thread about my beliefs and only because the only religion he pointed out in his post was Hinduism. It's hard not to get defensive being a Hindu convert in the buckle of the Bible Belt (Oklahoma). :hug:

[Marleysdaddy]

There have been many times when I have been posting here and of the names at the bottom, the self-proclaimed atheists outnumbered everyone else,

Fantastic...except you said "At any given moment"...which means there are ALWAYS more atheists than theists in the religion forum.

THAT is what I doubted.

[Marleysdaddy]

Thank you for the welcome. I have posted what I believe on this subject and I know I should feel no offense to what he has posted. I just thought that he posted that because of what I said earlier in the thread about my beliefs and only because the only religion he pointed out in his post was Hinduism. It's hard not to get defensive being a Hindu convert in the buckle of the Bible Belt (Oklahoma). :hug:

Where in Oklahoma? My grandparents live in Stillwater.

And I'm glad we have at least one Hindu posting in the RF...let me think back to when I took Hinduism in college, and I'll come up with some questions for you.

[khigh]

Where in Oklahoma? My grandparents live in Stillwater.

And I'm glad we have at least one Hindu posting in the RF...let me think back to when I took Hinduism in college, and I'll come up with some questions for you.

We are in Ft. Sill, in the southwest. My husband got it as his first duty station after I have already been stuck here for my whole life. I do have a friend that played football for OSU. Great school!

Feel free to ask any questions. I am a recent convert, so I may not have all the answers, but I will try to answer them. I have read the Vedas and the Upanishads, though, and could probably find references in them for any questions you might have.

[Scruffy]

The DNA half life estimate is just that: an estimate. It's also based on the supposed half life of DNA in Tris EDTA at about -20 degrees C.

Fossils can normally be found completely dessicated (devoid of water) and pervaded with silicates. DNA has a much longer half-life in dryer conditions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8TsDC2OOvbYC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=DNA+preserved+in+silicates&source=bl&ots=5P-XkqH7nB&sig=Sgg4BENGNDi-qZk0U4OBIuKRgWw&hl=en&ei=F7G-SfTzIdeMtgfo-7X4Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

The Neanderthal donor bone fragment was 36,000 years old, and multiple copies of the genome had to be used to decipher the entire code.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/316/5827/967a

Hogwash! But you keep twisting scientific evidence if it makes you happy. The Principles of Paleontology was written by evolutionists.

[Scruffy]

'Bout as big as a planet..... ;)

You might be surprised to know that we have cruise ships that are like floating cities. They have restaurants, shops, workout rooms, cabins for each passenger all on one boat! And......they have food on the boat to feed everyone for their long voyage. :)

So......if that's possible, then I think Noah's Ark is possible.

[Marleysdaddy]

We are in Ft. Sill, in the southwest. My husband got it as his first duty station after I have already been stuck here for my whole life. I do have a friend that played football for OSU. Great school!

Feel free to ask any questions. I am a recent convert, so I may not have all the answers, but I will try to answer them. I have read the Vedas and the Upanishads, though, and could probably find references in them for any questions you might have.

I love the Upanishads...

[Marleysdaddy]

Hogwash! But you keep twisting scientific evidence if it makes you happy.

Rather than shouting exclamatory remarks, why don't you show how Greyclouds is twisting scientific evidence?

[Marleysdaddy]

You might be surprised to know that we have cruise ships that are like floating cities. They have restaurants, shops, workout rooms, cabins for each passenger all on one boat! And......they have food on the boat to feed everyone for their long voyage. :)

So......if that's possible, then I think Noah's Ark is possible.

You could not fit two of most organisms and seven of some on any cruise ship

[Scruffy]

I have no problem with other people's religions. It is not for me to judge. I assumed this "thread' was Christian only. So don't get me confused with someone who touts their own religion over others. Christianity is my personal belief and I am well aware others feel differently. So please quit beating a dead horse. I don't need to be put in my place.

When I first came on the Religion section, I thought it would be cool to talk with other religious people. But I have come to find out that a lot of Atheist hang out here, and they want to debate you on everything you say. Which is ok with me. It makes my faith stronger, but it was not what I expected in the Religious section. I think they are searching for the truth. And I am more than glad to help.:)

[Marleysdaddy]

When I first came on the Religion section, I thought it would be cool to talk with other religious people. But I have come to find out that a lot of Atheist hang out here, and they want to debate you on everything you say. Which is ok with me. It makes my faith stronger, but it was not what I expected in the Religious section. I think they are searching for the truth. And I am more than glad to help.:)

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
- Andre Gide

[Scruffy]

You could not fit two of most organisms and seven of some on any cruise ship

That's probably what some people said about the cruise ship before it was built. I can just hear them now........"Your going to put restaurants and a mall on a boat???!!!!!! How will you fit all the people???? And cocktail lounges??!! And the food to feed the people??? Oh my Gosh!!!! This isn't plausible!!!"

[Marleysdaddy]

That's probably what some people said about the cruise ship before it was built. I can just hear them now........"Your going to put restaurants and a mall on a boat???!!!!!! How will you fit all the people???? And cocktail lounges??!! And the food to feed the people??? Oh my Gosh!!!! This isn't plausible!!!"

If so, those people were silly, and weren't thinking about dimensions of ships.

I have thought about dimensions of ships, and I have also thought about how many different organisms exist on this planet.

Unless many many species arose post-Ark, there is no possible way a sample of every plant, animal, fungus, bacterium, and protist could fit onto one vessel.

[Greyclouds]

Hogwash! But you keep twisting scientific evidence if it makes you happy. The Principles of Paleontology was written by evolutionists.

Hahaha, ok, please, point out where I'm twisting science.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You might be surprised to know that we have cruise ships that are like floating cities. They have restaurants, shops, workout rooms, cabins for each passenger all on one boat! And......they have food on the boat to feed everyone for their long voyage. :)

So......if that's possible, then I think Noah's Ark is possible.

This post is quite humorous.

[Scruffy]

If so, those people were silly, and weren't thinking about dimensions of ships.

I have thought about dimensions of ships, and I have also thought about how many different organisms exist on this planet.

Unless many many species arose post-Ark, there is no possible way a sample of every plant, animal, fungus, bacterium, and protist could fit onto one vessel.

Many breeds of species we have today didn't exist during the time of Noah. There are also many man-made breeds.

The dog and the horse have many different breeds that are man made.

[Greyclouds]

That's probably what some people said about the cruise ship before it was built. I can just hear them now........"Your going to put restaurants and a mall on a boat???!!!!!! How will you fit all the people???? And cocktail lounges??!! And the food to feed the people??? Oh my Gosh!!!! This isn't plausible!!!"

Noah would have had to have fit at least 1 million terrestrial land species on the boat and distributed them to remote islands after the flood.

This will be the largest ship ever built:

http://www.gizmag.com/the-worlds-largest-and-most-expensive-ship/9502/

It "comfortably" carries a maximum of 6,400 people. It is also 360m in length and 65m tall. Allowing for densly packed people, MAYBE it might surpass two orders of magnitude above its max capacity (around 100,000 people densly packed with storage for their food requirements).

By contrast, Noah's ark (using biblical dimensions) was 137m long and 45m high and was unlikely to be seaworthy, based on historical data on the "second" largest recorded wooden ship ever made (the ark would have been the first).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark#Seaworthiness

Oh, and freshwater fish would have become extinct shortly following a global flood.

[Scruffy]

Hahaha, ok, please, point out where I'm twisting science.

Nile Edredge an evolutionist says that Paleontologist say there is evidence for evolution when there really is not.

He proposed puntuated equilibrium to try to explain the problem with the fossil record.

Sorry if things are misspelled, I got to head to work now!

[Greyclouds]

Many breeds of species we have today didn't exist during the time of Noah. They are man-made breeds.

The dog and the horse have many different breeds that are man made.

Based on mitochondrial evidence, dogs diverged from their canid cousins (wolves) approximately 100,000 years ago.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/276/5319/1687?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=vila&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

[Greyclouds]

Nile Edredge an evolutionist says that Paleontologist say there is evidence for evolution when there really is not.

He proposed puntuated equilibrium to try to explain the problem with the fossil record.

Sorry if things are misspelled, I got to head to work now!

And...?

There are several things wrong with your conjecture:

1. You assume that modifications of the base theory to better account for trends is "twisting science." Sorry to say it, but it happens all the time in Science. Theory of Gravitation, anyone?

2. Punctuated Equilibrium is statistically plausible (if not still hotly-debated in the Evolutionary field; gasp!) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16901510?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

3. The Nucleic acid sequence evidence for evolution is IMMENSE. If you can tell me a plausible alternative theory that explains the presence of identical Endogenous Retro-viruses in the same places in the Chimp and Human genomes, then you've just removed a drop from the ocean of data that supports Evolutionary theory.

[Marleysdaddy]

Many breeds of species we have today didn't exist during the time of Noah. They are man-made breeds.

The dog and the horse have many different breeds that are man made.

Yes - but various breeds are all the same species.

Did any new species arise post-Ark?

[Greyclouds]

Nope...there were very big aquariums on the Ark

Ah I forgot! Noah was an expert glassworker and metallurgist in addition to being capable of erecting such a massive ark in such a short time, no?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Ah I forgot! Noah was an expert glassworker and metallurgist in addition to being capable of erecting such a massive ark in such a short time, no?

Plus plumbing, filtering and pumps....

[Koushi Shinigami]

How does one store enough fresh water on the ark to sustain 8 people and millions of different species of animals for 10 months?

[Koushi Shinigami]

filtering, schmiltering...it's only 40 daysees ;)

Guess again, Dad. ;)

It rained for 40 days. Then.....


Genesis 8:5
And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

[Greyclouds]

How does one store enough fresh water on the ark to sustain 8 people and millions of different species of animals for 10 months?

Noah made a massive distillation aparatus that was larger than the ark itself. He also built a fire on the deck of the ark to power the flames he needed to distill water from the seawater. He used driftwood and animal corpses to power it.

Actually... global flood apologetics based on speculation of possibilities is somewhat fun... :D

[Koushi Shinigami]

Noah made a massive distillation aparatus that was larger than the ark itself. He also built a fire on the deck of the ark to power the flames he needed to distill water from the seawater. He used driftwood and animal corpses to power it.

Actually... global flood apologetics based on speculation of possibilities is somewhat fun... :D

Perhaps the ark remained only in pockets of freshwater from which they drew with buckets. The freshwater pockets remained intact bubbles in the oceans untill the flood waters receeded when the fresh water bubbles were then deposited on the land as our present day lakes. :think:

[RayMan]

Perhaps the ark remained only in pockets of freshwater from which they drew with buckets. The freshwater pockets remained intact bubbles in the oceans untill the flood waters receeded when the fresh water bubbles were then deposited on the land as our present day lakes. :think:


Don't you two have some work you should be doing?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Don't you two have some work you should be doing?

Killjoy.

[RayMan]

Killjoy.

Close, but no cigar.

http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:xJuBEB1vGi5DyM::arockridgelife.files. wordpress.com/2008/12/kilroy.jpg

[Semi-Sweet]

There were mockers while Noah was building the ark. . . .that is until the flood came and took them away. Those who scoff, mock and ridicule the power of God and mock those who believe have always been, and they will always be.

[Greyclouds]

Don't you two have some work you should be doing?

Restriction enzymes do the work for me :D Set up the reaction volumes and let it sit at 37 degrees C.

Science is freakin' awesome!

[Greyclouds]

There were mockers while Noah was building the ark. . . .that is until the flood came and took them away. Those who scoff, mock and ridicule the power of God and mock those who believe have always been, and they will always be.

There were also people who took Jesus' parables as literal events, not realizing that the allegory was far more important than the supposed history behind such stories.

[Koushi Shinigami]

There were mockers while Noah was building the ark. . . .that is until the flood came and took them away. Those who scoff, mock and ridicule the power of God and mock those who believe have always been, and they will always be.

God also set up some rules about how things work. We call those rules 'Physics'. The physics of a wooden vessel of the size being discussed indicate that it would not work. Also, the real physical problems of feeding and watering that number of animals is a real barrier to the possiblity of the story being literally true.

[Semi-Sweet]

There were also people who took Jesus' parables as literal events, not realizing that the allegory was far more important than the supposed history behind such stories.

How does what people believe effect you or your life in any way? Do you have all of the answers?

[Koushi Shinigami]

how does what people believe effect you or your life in any way?

9-11.

[Gem]

I wish (some of) my Christian brethren could understand that the Bible is not the sum total of knowledge on this earth, and it definitely is not a science book. For anyone who says we should check scientific theories with the Bible, I wonder, have you checked your computer with the Bible? The Internet with the Bible? How about the car you drive, the plane you fly in and the Apollo Space Program with the Bible? I'm not one to memorize the Bible chapter and verse, but it's a very safe bet that none of the above are in the Bible yet we do not shun them nor do we deny their existence. No, the Bible was written by and for ancient man, not modern man (referring to knowledge of the time). If someone had told Isaiah that humanity would be flying in great metal birds of their own making, his head would have probably exploded. Sure Moses may have parted the Red Sea, but I doubt he could ever have envisioned taking a walk on the lunar surface. While the message of the Bible is timeless, the Bible itself cannot be removed from its time.


I don't know Constantine.
The bible does say , there is nothing new under the sun.

As far as flying goes you might want to read Isaiah 60: 8.

8-" Who are these who fly like a cloud.
And like doves to their roosts ?

9-
Surely the Coastlands shall wait for Me;
And the ships of Tarshish will come first , to bring your sons from afar, their silver and their gold with them, to the name of the Lord your God.

Also you can read Ezekiel 1: starting at verse 19.

[Greyclouds]

How does what people believe effect you or your life in any way? Do you have all of the answers?

Most assuredly not! All that I know is that I know nothing.

As for what people believe, is that not what this thread is about? Is it not a discussion of exactly what is believed about an event that is only recorded in the Bible and Koran?

You did introduce a concept that "mocking" beliefs often leads to destruction; am I not free to offer an alternative to your contention? Such as the recognition of an allegory in light of the lack of physical evidence to support the literal interpretation of a story?

[Semi-Sweet]

Most assuredly not! All that I know is that I know nothing.

As for what people believe, is that not what this thread is about? Is it not a discussion of exactly what is believed about an event that is only recorded in the Bible and Koran?

You did introduce a concept that "mocking" beliefs often leads to destruction; am I not free to offer an alternative to your contention? Such as the recognition of an allegory in light of the lack of physical evidence to support the literal interpretation of a story?

You were mocking an honored guest's belief in the Bible account of Noah and the ark and the flood.

[Gem]

JESUS is the Living Word of GOD.

To quote Marcus Borg



The Bible itself calls Jesus the Word of God who became flesh.

The Word of God is the living spirit of Christ and not an inanimate object such as a BOOK.

Revelations 19:
11- Now I saw heaven opened, and behold a White horse. And He who sat on Him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

12-His eyes was like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.

13- He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

14- And the armies in heaven , clothed in fine linen, White and clean, followed Him on White horses.

15- Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty God.

16- And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written;

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

[Greyclouds]

You were mocking an honored guest's belief in the Bible account of Noah and the ark and the flood.

If you point out the incident, I will gladly edit my post in order to avoid contention between me and another poster.

I do not post to demean beliefs; however, if such beliefs obviously contradict physical occurrences that apply directly to my chosen field of study, I will point out that there are no physical mechanisms to support such beliefs.

Much in the same way, I could claim that I believe there really were three servants that had talons, and a poster here could suggest that such a story is clearly presented as an allegory due to the circumstances of the story. If the previous sentence is, in your opinion, mocking another's beliefs, then I'm sure that everyone here is guilty of such a crime of incredulity.

[Gem]

We don't go to heaven unless we go through him? So is that literally or metaphorical?

Is "going through him" synonymous with joining the Christian religion that is here on earth?

Taylor
I believe a lot that you are saying. This is the way I see and understand the bible if you don't mind me saying so.

I see the Old Testament of God that He taught the children of Israel His ways by using natural things. I say that because every thing you read and God does is by natural things. a lot easier for the children of Israel to understand what God does mean.

I also believe that when reading the New Testament you have to replace the natural things that God used in the Old Testament with Spiritual things in the New Testament.

In other words just replace the natural things with spiritual things.

I hope this is not confusing .

[TaylorW65]

Taylor
I believe a lot that you are saying. This is the way I see and understand the bible if you don't mind me saying so.

I see the Old Testament of God that He taught the children of Israel His ways by using natural things. I say that because every thing you read and God does is by natural things. a lot easier for the children of Israel to understand what God does mean.

I also believe that when reading the New Testament you have to replace the natural things that God used in the Old Testament with Spiritual things in the New Testament.

In other words just replace the natural things with spiritual things.

I hope this is not confusing .

I understand that clearly, that is a very good way of looking at it. I think that helps a great deal. Thanks. :)

[Semi-Sweet]

Most assuredly not! All that I know is that I know nothing.

As for what people believe, is that not what this thread is about? Is it not a discussion of exactly what is believed about an event that is only recorded in the Bible and Koran?

You did introduce a concept that "mocking" beliefs often leads to destruction; am I not free to offer an alternative to your contention? Such as the recognition of an allegory in light of the lack of physical evidence to support the literal interpretation of a story?

If quoting scripture is introducing a concept then so be it. . . .

2Pe 2:5 "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
1Pe 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

[Semi-Sweet]

Taylor
I believe a lot that you are saying. This is the way I see and understand the bible if you don't mind me saying so.

I see the Old Testament of God that He taught the children of Israel His ways by using natural things. I say that because every thing you read and God does is by natural things. a lot easier for the children of Israel to understand what God does mean.

I also believe that when reading the New Testament you have to replace the natural things that God used in the Old Testament with Spiritual things in the New Testament.

In other words just replace the natural things with spiritual things.

I hope this is not confusing .

This is very good Gem.

[Gem]

I understand that clearly, that is a very good way of looking at it. I think that helps a great deal. Thanks. :)


Your welcome.

[Gem]

This is very good Gem.

Thanks Semi-Sweet.

[Scruffy]

You could not fit two of most organisms and seven of some on any cruise ship

Oh, now it's "organisms"? I don't remember God saying get two of every fungus, plant, micro-organism, etc....

[Marleysdaddy]

Oh, now it's "organisms"? I don't remember God saying get two of every fungus, plant, micro-organism, etc....

The fungus and plants could not have survived a global flood, so I assume spores and seeds were saved on the Ark.

But to make it simpler, we'll stick with the kingdom Animalia

Two of every animal on the planet would not fit on one boat, unless that boat were the size of a small country...and that only takes care of terrestrial animals. What about all the birds and freshwater fish?

[Scruffy]

If so, those people were silly, and weren't thinking about dimensions of ships.

I have thought about dimensions of ships, and I have also thought about how many different organisms exist on this planet.

Unless many many species arose post-Ark, there is no possible way a sample of every plant, animal, fungus, bacterium, and protist could fit onto one vessel.

O.K.........this might be why some people have trouble understanding Noah's Ark. God NEVER asked Noah to bring every living plant, fungus or bacterium. He only said birds, animals and creatures that move along the ground. And food to be eaten.

[Greyclouds]

If quoting scripture is introducing a concept then so be it. . . .

2Pe 2:5 "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
1Pe 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

I can only speak for my interpretation of the story, but I find the telling of Noah and the Ark to be a way to provide lore to a people devoted to their monotheistic God.

If they followed God's commandments, and lived a morally just life, they could be ensured the continuance of that life.


I do not view the story in a literal light, if only because the physical details offered about the Ark leave alot of "plot holes" regarding the mechanisms by which Noah saved every terrestrial animal and every freshwater organism from the flood.

[Greyclouds]

O.K.........this might be why some people have trouble understanding Noah's Ark. God NEVER asked Noah to bring every living plant, fungus or bacterium. He only said birds, animals and creatures that move along the ground. And food to be eaten.

But then, why do freshwater fish still live in freshwater lakes?

Also, how are terrestrial plants still alive after the flood? (Saltwater and plants do not mix, except in the case of distinct species)

[Semi-Sweet]

If so, those people were silly, and weren't thinking about dimensions of ships.

I have thought about dimensions of ships, and I have also thought about how many different organisms exist on this planet.

Unless many many species arose post-Ark, there is no possible way a sample of every plant, animal, fungus, bacterium, and protist could fit onto one vessel.

Amazing how the trees and stuff sprouted back out.

Gen 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

Gen 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth [was] an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Gen 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

[captusa]

Oh, now it's "organisms"? I don't remember God saying get two of every fungus, plant, micro-organism, etc....

You could not fit two of most insects on any cruise ship.
You could not fit 14 of most birds on any cruise ship.
You could not fit 14 of most ungulates on any cruise ship.

If one were to believe the Noah story one would have to believe that every specie of plant and animal that could not survive under water for 3 months would have to have been on the Ark.
Again Noah would have needed an armada of arks.

[Marleysdaddy]

O.K.........this might be why some people have trouble understanding Noah's Ark. God NEVER asked Noah to bring every living plant, fungus or bacterium. He only said birds, animals and creatures that move along the ground. And food to be eaten.

Then did your God engage in a second creation post-Flood in which he remade all the plants, fungus, bacteria, protists, etc. that were destroyed in the flood?

They're here now...they had to come from somewhere :think:

[Semi-Sweet]

Most assuredly not! All that I know is that I know nothing.

As for what people believe, is that not what this thread is about? Is it not a discussion of exactly what is believed about an event that is only recorded in the Bible and Koran?

You did introduce a concept that "mocking" beliefs often leads to destruction; am I not free to offer an alternative to your contention? Such as the recognition of an allegory in light of the lack of physical evidence to support the literal interpretation of a story?

(bolded) If you are referring to 'the flood'

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood.

[hben]

(bolded) If you are referring to 'the flood'

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood.

Just curious...does history tell us whether or not the ancient citizens of the world blamed Bush for the flood, or did they give him a pass since he wasn't born yet and wouldn't be for a few thousand years? :cool: :whistle:

[Marleysdaddy]

Just curious...does history tell us whether or not the ancient citizens of the world blamed Bush for the flood, or did they give him a pass since he wasn't born yet and wouldn't be for a few thousand years? :cool: :whistle:

Nope - still his fault. Ancient Mayan texts confirm it :))

[Greyclouds]

(bolded) If you are referring to 'the flood'

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood.


Does a consensus of ethos in ancient religions reliably lead to fact? By the number of stories and the diversity of such tales, Dragons would be incontrovertible fact by such a metric:

http://www.theserenedragon.net/Tales/tales.html

Assuming that the presence of these similar stories all indicate that there was a global flood, then how do you account for the widespread distribution of humans shortly after the flood occurred? Was it not close to impossible for humans to reach the American continents prior to the invention of the compass and seafaring techniques?

Disclaimer: this is NOT intended to mock your belief or anyone else's belief. Instead I'm attacking YOUR EVIDENCE, not you! You're a good person!

[captusa]

Nope - still his fault. Ancient Mayan texts confirm it :))

You don't read Mayan that well.
If you read it more carefully you would have seen that Bush inherited the flood from Clinton.

[Marleysdaddy]

Disclaimer: this is NOT intended to mock your belief or anyone else's belief. Instead I'm attacking YOUR EVIDENCE, not you! You're a good person!

I may make this my signature :think:

[Semi-Sweet]

Does a consensus of ethos in ancient religions reliably lead to fact? By the number of stories and the diversity of such tales, Dragons would be incontrovertible fact by such a metric:

http://www.theserenedragon.net/Tales/tales.html

Assuming that the presence of these similar stories all indicate that there was a global flood, then how do you account for the widespread distribution of humans shortly after the flood occurred? Was it not close to impossible for humans to reach the American continents prior to the invention of the compass and seafaring techniques?

You made the statement that the flood was only mentioned in the Bible and in the Koran.

You were wrong according to the site I posted. :mrgreen:

[Semi-Sweet]

Disclaimer: this is NOT intended to mock your belief or anyone else's belief. Instead I'm attacking YOUR EVIDENCE, not you! You're a good person!

You can't mock my beliefs because you don't know what I believe, and even if you did, I can handle it.

[Marleysdaddy]

You made the statement that the flood was only mentioned in the Bible and in the Koran.

You were wrong according to the site I posted. :mrgreen:

other cultures mention a flood...but is it the "The Flood" mentioned in the Bible and Qu'ran? :think:

[Semi-Sweet]

Just curious...does history tell us whether or not the ancient citizens of the world blamed Bush for the flood, or did they give him a pass since he wasn't born yet and wouldn't be for a few thousand years? :cool: :whistle:

Hi hben. Bush probably looks pretty good to some now. . .:cool:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Hi hben. Bush probably looks pretty good to some now. . .:cool:

No comment. :cool:

[Scruffy]

The only reason I find it hard to grasp that God purged evil from Earth with a global flood is because of one thing: I am a Hindu and nothing about it is mentioned in the Vedas or the Upanishads, which are my religious texts. There is nothing mentioned in science that proves or disproves the theory of a catastrophic flood other than the fact that that many animals could never have been put on a vessel and survive. There is nothing to suggest that evolution is false, for me either. Even in my religious texts, we are told to question and ponder the universe around us.

I cannot fully understand how the world has evolved or how they are finding bacteria that is 250 million years old. It is not my field. That does not mean I cannot question what I hear. That is what Brahman tells me to do.

I'm sorry, I thought you might be one of the Atheist trying to get me riled up. :)

[Semi-Sweet]

Assuming that the presence of these similar stories all indicate that there was a global flood, then how do you account for the widespread distribution of humans shortly after the flood occurred? Was it not close to impossible for humans to reach the American continents prior to the invention of the compass and seafaring techniques?

If you had read the Scripture you would know this.

From the Septuagint. . .Genesis 11. . ."And all the earth was one lip, and there was one language to all. And it came to pass as they moved from the east, they found a plain in the land of Senaar, and the dwelt there. And a man said to his neighbor, Come, let us make bricks and bake them with fire.

And the brick was to them for stone, and their mortar was bitumen. And they said, Come, let us build to ourselves a city and tower, whose top shall be to heaven, and let us make to ourselves a name, before we are scattered abroad upon the face of all the earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of men built.

And the Lord said, Behold, there is one race, and one lip of all, and they have begun to do this, and now nothing shall fail from them of all that they may have undertaken to do. Come, and having gone down let us there confound their tongue, that they may not understand each the voice of his neighbor.

And the Lord scattered them thence over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city and the tower. On this account its name was called Confusion, because there the Lord confounded the languages of all the earth, and thence the Lord scattered them upon the face of all the earth.

Every different race speaks a different language. The beginning of the religions of the world are dated after this date in history. It is reasonable to think that the different races of people built their religious faiths from what they could remember of what Noah taught before they were scattered.

[captusa]

I'm sorry, I thought you might be one of the Atheist trying to get me riled up. :)

Why do you think any Atheists are trying to get you riled up ?

[captusa]

Originally Posted by Semi-Sweet
Hi hben. Bush probably looks pretty good to some now. . .

No comment. :cool:

You can include me on that list.
Bush looks much better to me now as an ex-president than he has for the 8 previous years.

[Values]

Why do you think any Atheists are trying to get you riled up ?

She says toungue in cheek.:whistle:

[captusa]

Originally Posted by captusa
Why do you think any Atheists are trying to get you riled up ?

She says toungue in cheek.:whistle:

Why do you think it isn't a reasonable question to wonder why Scruffy thinks Atheists are trying to rile him/or her up ?
And why do you assume I am female ?

[Values]

Why do you think it isn't a reasonable question to wonder why Scruffy thinks Atheists are trying to rile him/or her up ?
And why do you assume I am female ?

I have bantered about with a number of you recently and I have concluded that most of you are here for that very purpose.

Should I have concluded that you were a male?
I am sorry if you are male and I didn't recognize that,
I will go back and change it if you llike.

[captusa]

I have bantered about with a number of you recently and I have concluded that most of you are here for that very purpose.
.
You've made a lot of erroneous conclusionsm so this one doesn't surprise me.


Should I have concluded that you were a male?
I am sorry if you are male and I didn't recognize that,
I will go back and change it if you llike.

I just wondered how you came to your conclusion ?

[khigh]

I'm sorry, I thought you might be one of the Atheist trying to get me riled up. :)

I don't rile people up. That would not be good karma at all. :razz:

[Values]

.
You've made a lot of erroneous conclusionsm so this one doesn't surprise me.



I just wondered how you came to your conclusion ?

Nice of you to say.:rolleyes:
Of all here, you are the most fun to banter around with.
Now, that I know you are a dude, even more so.

[captusa]

Nice of you to say.:rolleyes:
Of all here, you are the most fun to banter around with.
Now, that I know you are a dude, even more so.

How did you conclude that I am male ?

[Scruffy]

Why do you think any Atheists are trying to get you riled up ?

Because sometimes a person can't voice their opinion without an Atheist's interrogation. :frown: Which ends up getting me riled up.

That is just my experience and feelings when in the religious section. It was not what I expected, but I am new to the whole forum scene, so what do I know.

[Scruffy]

I don't rile people up. That would not be good karma at all. :razz:

You're a mellow dude or dudette, you seem easier to talk to. :)

[Mikko]

I have bantered about with a number of you recently and I have concluded that most of you are here for that very purpose.
That certainly hasn't been my observation. A few, perhaps, but not many. There probably are forums where atheists aren't allowed.:)

[Mikko]

Because sometimes a person can't voice their opinion without an Atheist's interrogation. :frown: Which ends up getting me riled up.

That is just my experience and feelings when in the religious section. It was not what I expected, but I am new to the whole forum scene, so what do I know.
If one voices one's opinion in this forum, one is going to be questioned. One can always say, "I'm not here to be interrogated.":)

[Semi-Sweet]

No comment. :cool:

:silenced: :cool:

[biggles53]

Scruff...how's that readin' goin'...?

[Scruffy]

Scruff...how's that readin' goin'...?

It's going pretty well. :razz:

I don't have any questions about it yet.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You can include me on that list.
Bush looks much better to me now as an ex-president than he has for the 8 previous years.

Actually, I was witholding comment because this is a family friendly site.

[Greyclouds]

If you had read the Scripture you would know this.

From the Septuagint. . .Genesis 11. . ."And all the earth was one lip, and there was one language to all. And it came to pass as they moved from the east, they found a plain in the land of Senaar, and the dwelt there. And a man said to his neighbor, Come, let us make bricks and bake them with fire.

And the brick was to them for stone, and their mortar was bitumen. And they said, Come, let us build to ourselves a city and tower, whose top shall be to heaven, and let us make to ourselves a name, before we are scattered abroad upon the face of all the earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of men built.

And the Lord said, Behold, there is one race, and one lip of all, and they have begun to do this, and now nothing shall fail from them of all that they may have undertaken to do. Come, and having gone down let us there confound their tongue, that they may not understand each the voice of his neighbor.

And the Lord scattered them thence over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city and the tower. On this account its name was called Confusion, because there the Lord confounded the languages of all the earth, and thence the Lord scattered them upon the face of all the earth.

Every different race speaks a different language. The beginning of the religions of the world are dated after this date in history. It is reasonable to think that the different races of people built their religious faiths from what they could remember of what Noah taught before they were scattered.

There were many "tongues" prior to the tower of babel, unless you believe that only one generation after Noah, the tower of Babel event took place (and there are thousands of human dialects across the earth today... many are not derivatives of the others).

Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

This was prior to the Tower of Babel (also, how did the Gentiles reoccupy the lands so soon after Noah's ark landed? Did his sons suddenly go rogue and become gentiles?), which is documented in Genesis chapter 11.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Originally Posted by Semi-Sweet
If you had read the Scripture you would know this.

<snip>

Every different race speaks a different language.

Funny. I never knew the English were a different race than the Italians who are a different race than the French, who are a different race than.....

[RayMan]

Funny. I never knew the English were a different race than the Italians who are a different race than the French, who are a different race than.....


Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

I believe Paul is bringing out here that there is one race (blood) - humanity - though many nations (ethnos).

Mornin' ya'll.

[Semi-Sweet]

There were many "tongues" prior to the tower of babel, unless you believe that only one generation after Noah, the tower of Babel event took place (and there are thousands of human dialects across the earth today... many are not derivatives of the others).

Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

This was prior to the Tower of Babel (also, how did the Gentiles reoccupy the lands so soon after Noah's ark landed? Did his sons suddenly go rogue and become gentiles?), which is documented in Genesis chapter 11.

It's called recapitulation. Chapters 10 and 11 go together. (originally written without chapters and verses) It's the same event, written after it happened.

Many think there were two creations in the first part of Genesis, as it was written in this same style.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

I believe Paul is bringing out here that there is one race (blood) - humanity - though many nations (ethnos).

Mornin' ya'll.

Marnin'.

I like that interpretation.

[Semi-Sweet]

Funny. I never knew the English were a different race than the Italians who are a different race than the French, who are a different race than.....

Should I have used another word?

From Scripture. . . "And the Lord said, Behold, there is one race"

1) A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2) A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Should I have used another word?

From Scripture. . . "And the Lord said, Behold, there is one race"

1) A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2) A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

The first definition regarding genetic features is the one I use. And to be honest, I'd wager that my list of races is shorter than most people's.

To me, the second definition is better captured in the term 'nationality'. There is no such thing as a 'German race'. Especially in today's world with migration and travel so easy. Nationalisic definitions of race are becoming less and less meaningful. By that definition, 'American' is a race. I don't subscribe to the idea one can change their race by revising their address.





From Scripture. . . "And the Lord said, Behold, there is one race"


Oh, if only mankind would pay more attention to that particular scripture....

[Greyclouds]

It's called recapitulation. Chapters 10 and 11 go together. (originally written without chapters and verses) It's the same event, written after it happened.

Many think there were two creations in the first part of Genesis, as it was written in this same style.

So Noah's immediate family built the Tower of Babel and were confused by God?

Only 4 generations of people (approximately 17+ men and an unknown number of women (of the same bloodline??)) built the tower of babel?

[vir doctus]

race
"people of common descent," c.1500, from M.Fr. razza "race, breed, lineage," possibly from It. razza, of unknown origin (cf. Sp., Port. raza). Original senses in Eng. included "wines with characteristic flavor" (1520), "group of people with common occupation" (c.1500), and "generation" (c.1560). Meaning "tribe, nation, or people regarded as of common stock" is from c.1600. Modern meaning of "one of the great divisions of mankind based on physical peculiarities" is from 1774 (though even among anthropologists there never has been an accepted classification of these). Klein suggests these derive from Arabic ra's "head, beginning, origin" (cf. Heb. rosh). O.E. þeode meant both "race" and "language;" as a verb, geþeodan, it meant "to unite, to join." Racial is first attested 1862. Race-riot attested from 1890.

[Semi-Sweet]

So Noah's immediate family built the Tower of Babel and were confused by God?

Only 4 generations of people (approximately 17+ men and an unknown number of women (of the same bloodline??)) built the tower of babel?

From 8 people to a large thriving population.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

And they did!

[Greyclouds]

From 8 people to a large thriving population.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

And they did!

Close to 6,912 by the time the Tower of Babel was built?

http://blogs.voices.com/castingvoices/2006/05/languages_and_dialects_of_the.html

[RayMan]

From 8 people to a large thriving population.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

And they did! Yes they did. And for those of who actually believe Genesis 11 those four generations after the flood encompassed hundred of years of time, with a whole lot of begetting going on.

Arphaxad, Shem's son, two years after flood.
Salah,
Eber
Peleg
-------------------------
Gen 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
Gen 11:11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
Gen 11:13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
Gen 11:15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
Gen 11:17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
Gen 11:19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.

[BillyBobUSA]

Was it not close to impossible for humans to reach the American continents prior to the invention of the compass and seafaring techniques?


Not impossible at all and in fact there is evidence of settlement on the American continents by Chinese, Polynesians and Vikings prior to the invention of 'seafaring' techniques that allow for open ocean navigation.

[Greyclouds]

Yes they did. And for those of who actually believe Genesis 11 those four generations after the flood encompassed hundred of years of time, with a whole lot of begetting going on.

Arphaxad, Shem's son, two years after flood.
Salah,
Eber
Peleg
-------------------------
Gen 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
Gen 11:11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
Gen 11:13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
Gen 11:15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
Gen 11:17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.

Gen 11:18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
Gen 11:19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.

That's after the tower of babel story, though, is it not?