Why do athiests come to a religion forum?

[Values]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?

[Marleysdaddy]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?


Instead of asking other non-atheists why they think the atheists come here, why don't you just ask the atheists themselves?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?


Why not?

[Values]

Instead of asking other non-atheists why they think the atheists come here, why don't you just ask the atheists themselves?

Open forum....answer away!
If they needed an invitation there would be no athiests here since the do not believe in any God and this is a religon forum, yet they are here.
Besides I want to know what believers say as well.

[Values]

They come here because they have as much right to be here as anyone else, and they are as interested in the questions surrounding the origin and nature of human existence as all the people who turn to religion for those answers are. Why are you here? Are you seeking answers?

Of course they have a right to came, I am glad they do.
I believe I know why they come but I am seeking more info on the topic.
You think they seek answers to human origin and human nature.
This sounds plausible, although it seems an athiest would not seek out religion to answer these questions.

[Values]

Why not?

Many reasons.
I am glad they are here, but why do they come?

[European]

Many reasons.
I am glad they are here, but why do they come?

Because I'm interested in the way other people see the world.And because I'm open minded,I dont want you to turn into an Atheist,dont worry :D
I just want to know why people have different opinions.

So do you have any problems with that?

[Rushtradamus]

I look at it like a scientist does. I want to watch how another culture treats its own members. I find it interesting. I am agnostic, but I lean heavily toward no god. The proof, just isn't there. BTW, I was raised Catholic.

[Values]

Because I'm interested in the way other people see the world.And because I'm open minded,I dont want you to turn into an Atheist,dont worry :D
I just want to know why people have different opinions.

So do you have any problems with that?

You seem to think I am angry or have a problem with people who profess to not believe in God coming and learning about Him.
This is absolutely the opposite of what I think.

I am not worried about you turning me or anyone into an athiest.
This Op is about discovering why people would look in here if they are sure of their own anti-diety beliefs.
You say you are athiest yet open minded, does that mean you are open to the possibility of there being a God or Gods?

[Pollyanna]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?


Some may be seeking answers, some may want to see another's point of view. Just like everyone else here, I'm sure we all have different reasons for being in this forum.

[Meriweather]

I've been here long enough to see the "Why are atheists here" question asked and answered several times. A better question I have of myself and others is why are we believers constantly in atheist threads instead of in threads whose subjects are clearly focused on religious teachings, issues, and beliefs?

[RickRhetoric]

Are they seeking answers?

Yes we are. I'm an American atheist, and as such have been exposed to God and religion during my youth. Like most American atheists, my being exposed to religion continues to haunt me. I am conflicted, troubled and confused about God. I don't quite know what to believe. I may be somewhat agnostic.

I'm always hoping that someone can prove to me that there is or is not a creator.

When Christians can provide no proof of the existence of God, I become frustrated, bitter, angry -- and even spiteful and malicious. Darn it! I want an answer! [stamping feet] I retaliate my making trouble for them such as filing law suits demanding the word God be deleted from currency as well as demanding that other religious references, activities and symbols be banished.

I know that I represent only a small minority of the American demographic, but nevertheless it gives me satisfaction to punish and maliciously and mischievously harass Christians. I know the liberal courts are on my side.

If I had never been exposed to religion like real atheists in Communist countries, I would not be conflicted in my belief and would not be angry. I'd just be indifferent and happy to get along with everyone -- religious or not.

Oh well, what can I complain and pester Christians about today?

[Sketch]

I am fascinated with several topics that I do not “believe” in: the paranormal, psychics, astrology, mysticism, homeopathy, UFO’s, and many other things. I am fascinated with what people believe – mostly because I don’t understand how they can believe what they claim they believe. I post here mostly to challenge belief. I think doubt is better than faith.

I am certain that I am not “looking for gods” – I am here to figure out why people believe in the gods and religion (though I doubt I ever will).

[Koushi Shinigami]

Yes we are. I'm an American atheist, and as such have been exposed to God and religion during my youth. Like most American atheists, my being exposed to religion continues to haunt me. I am conflicted, troubled and confused about God. I don't quite know what to believe. I may be somewhat agnostic.

I'm always hoping that someone can prove to me that there is or is not a creator.

When Christians can provide no proof of the existence of God, I become frustrated, bitter, angry -- and even spiteful and malicious. Darn it! I want an answer! [stamping feet] I retaliate my making trouble for them such as filing law suits demanding the word God be deleted from currency as well as demanding that other religious references, activities and symbols be banished.

I know that I represent only a small minority of the American demographic, but nevertheless it gives me satisfaction to punish and maliciously and mischievously harass Christians. I know the liberal courts are on my side.

If I had never been exposed to religion like real atheists in Communist countries, I would not be conflicted in my belief and would not be angry. I'd just be indifferent and happy to get along with everyone -- religious or not.

Oh well, what can I complain and pester Christians about today?

:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Spoken exactly as a believer would expect an athiest to think. Bravo on your performance, Sir. :clap:

[Values]

I look at it like a scientist does. I want to watch how another culture treats its own members. I find it interesting. I am agnostic, but I lean heavily toward no god. The proof, just isn't there. BTW, I was raised Catholic.

Side note: I have found so many agnostics that were raised catholic.
Too bad.
I see that religion can often get in the way of Faith.

[hillplus]

Yes we are. I'm an American atheist, and as such have been exposed to God and religion during my youth. Like most American atheists, my being exposed to religion continues to haunt me. I am conflicted, troubled and confused about God. I don't quite know what to believe. I may be somewhat agnostic.

I'm always hoping that someone can prove to me that there is or is not a creator.

When Christians can provide no proof of the existence of God, I become frustrated, bitter, angry -- and even spiteful and malicious. Darn it! I want an answer! [stamping feet] I retaliate my making trouble for them such as filing law suits demanding the word God be deleted from currency as well as demanding that other religious references, activities and symbols be banished.

I know that I represent only a small minority of the American demographic, but nevertheless it gives me satisfaction to punish and maliciously and mischievously harass Christians. I know the liberal courts are on my side.

If I had never been exposed to religion like real atheists in Communist countries, I would not be conflicted in my belief and would not be angry. I'd just be indifferent and happy to get along with everyone -- religious or not.

Oh well, what can I complain and pester Christians about today?

Interesting answer, although the above in red is disturbing. You gain satisfaction in harassing others?? :eek:

Methinks you are pulling a leg or two.

[European]

You seem to think I am angry or have a problem with people who profess to not believe in God coming and learning about Him.
This is absolutely the opposite of what I think.

I am not worried about you turning me or anyone into an athiest.
This Op is about discovering why people would look in here if they are sure of their own anti-diety beliefs.
You say you are athiest yet open minded, does that mean you are open to the possibility of there being a God or Gods?

No no I wasnt thinking you were angry,you understood me wrong or I expressed it in the wrong way,sorry
Sure there could be a "god",but we just dont know so I dont belive in it.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Side note: I have found so many agnostics that were raised catholic.
Too bad.
I see that religion can often get in the way of Faith.

Perhaps you should ask some of the good Catholics on this board about that.....

I've found, after coming here, that the erroneous perceptions people hold about the Catholic church often get in the way of understanding. Unfortunately, sometimes people who call themselves Catholic, hold those misunderstandings.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Interesting answer, although the above in red is disturbing. You gain satisfaction in harassing others?? :eek:

Methinks you are pulling a leg or two.

:clap:


Your insight serves you well. My young Padewan.

[European]

Interesting answer, although the above in red is disturbing. You gain satisfaction in harassing others?? :eek:



Sure he's an evil atheist ;-)
BTW: Great sense of humor Rick

[Values]

I've been here long enough to see the "Why are atheists here" question asked and answered several times. A better question I have of myself and others is why are we believers constantly in atheist threads instead of in threads whose subjects are clearly focused on religious teachings, issues, and beliefs?

I can answer that in that I have found that the secularism that we want to hide our head in the sand on, has taken a huge bite of God's children and His voice through us with it. There are churches now who throw out major portions of the Bible to be politically correct.
Understanding the drive behind secularism is a good step in deciding how to reach unbelievers.
This is a good thread topic.

[Values]

No no I wasnt thinking you were angry,you understood me wrong or I expressed it in the wrong way,sorry
Sure there could be a "god",but we just dont know so I dont belive in it.

I used to think that way as well. Actually, now that I think about it, I had the distinct feeling that there WAS something bigger than us out there I just didn't know what.
The more I delved into science and the intricacies of nature the more I became convinced that there was a design and purpose to all that we are and experience.

[Values]

:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Spoken exactly as a believer would expect an athiest to think. Bravo on your performance, Sir. :clap:

As a believer I would expect an athiest to not believe in God even in the slightest.
I also would try not to presume why someone would think so...hence the OP.

[RayMan]

Interesting answer, although the above in red is disturbing. You gain satisfaction in harassing others?? :eek:

Methinks you are pulling a leg or two.

Thou thinketh correctly.

[Values]

I am fascinated with several topics that I do not “believe” in: the paranormal, psychics, astrology, mysticism, homeopathy, UFO’s, and many other things. I am fascinated with what people believe – mostly because I don’t understand how they can believe what they claim they believe. I post here mostly to challenge belief. I think doubt is better than faith.

I am certain that I am not “looking for gods” – I am here to figure out why people believe in the gods and religion (though I doubt I ever will).

What leads you to believe that doubt is better than faith?

[Lie Sniper]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?

I would guess they come here for the same reasons I do. To gain knowledge and a deeper understanding of the belief in God.

[Meriweather]

I can answer that in that I have found that the secularism that we want to hide our head in the sand on, has taken a huge bite of God's children and His voice through us with it. There are churches now who throw out major portions of the Bible to be politically correct.
Understanding the drive behind secularism is a good step in deciding how to reach unbelievers.
This is a good thread topic.

Here is a link to an article that says recent studies show that fifteen percent of the U.S. population are now saying they have no religion at all.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506849,00.html

[captusa]

As a believer I would expect an athiest to not believe in God even in the slightest.
I also would try not to presume why someone would think so...hence the OP.

Atheism is a religious point of view and where else would you discuss religious ideas.
Also the arguements that many Christians and Jews post on the Bible as history are disbelieved by Deists and people with other religions.
My ideas that I propose in these posts would be the same as a Deist like Einstein.
Actually I could accept Einstein's Deism so would you complain if Deists and Agnostics joined your discussions ?

[captusa]

I can answer that in that I have found that the secularism that we want to hide our head in the sand on, has taken a huge bite of God's children and His voice through us with it. There are churches now who throw out major portions of the Bible to be politically correct.
Understanding the drive behind secularism is a good step in deciding how to reach unbelievers.
This is a good thread topic.

I discuss religious points of view.
I do not proselytize.
When someone posts an attack on science based on a specific religion that should be discussed.
You however go to Atheist sites with the intention of attacking their beliefs and changing them.

[RayMan]

Atheism is a religious point of view and where else would you discuss religious ideas.<snip>

Could some of our other honored atheists weigh in on cap's remark?

[Meriweather]

Atheism is a religious point of view and where else would you discuss religious ideas.
Also the arguements that many Christians and Jews post on the Bible as history are disbelieved by Deists and people with other religions.
My ideas that I propose in these posts would be the same as a Deist like Einstein.
Actually I could accept Einstein's Deism so would you complain if Deists and Agnostics joined your discussions ?

I don't think Values is complaining. You've been here long enough, too, captusa, to see this question popping up periodically. There is a true curiosity among believers about why atheists wish to discuss something they do not believe.

[captusa]

I've been here long enough to see the "Why are atheists here" question asked and answered several times. A better question I have of myself and others is why are we believers constantly in atheist threads instead of in threads whose subjects are clearly focused on religious teachings, issues, and beliefs?

I believe you go to the Atheist threads to learn and explain ideas.
Other religionist go there to attack and argue.
I see you as an intelligent, rational, respectful and religious person.
How do you feel you've been treated on the Atheist sites ?

[Meriweather]

I believe you go to the Atheist threads to learn and explain ideas.
Other religionist go there to attack and argue.
I see you as an intelligent, rational, respectful and religious person.
How do you feel you've been treated on the Atheist sites ?

Do you mean in the atheist threads here in Hannity's Religion Forum? Everyone here has always treated me like an honored guest. We have a great group of atheists here.

(I don't go to Atheist websites, or for that matter, to other Religion discussion sites.)

[captusa]

I don't think Values is complaining. You've been here long enough, too, captusa, to see this question popping up periodically. There is a true curiosity among believers about why atheists wish to discuss something they do not believe.

I believe religions exist.
I have studied religions and other philosophies and find the subject interesting.
I have taken philosophy courses from Atheists, Priests, Ministers and one Philosophy professor who was such a dedicated Freudian that he could be accurately described as a discipile.
I do not have to agree with someone to learn something from them.
Especially when I research their points and my errors.

[optrader]

I try (and usually do) to learn from everyone. If everyone thought and believed as I do, I wouldn't learn anything new. I value thoughtful, respectful posts from everyone...

[captusa]

Do you mean in the atheist threads here in Hannity's Religion Forum? Everyone here has always treated me like an honored guest. We have a great group of atheists here.

(I don't go to Atheist websites, or for that matter, to other Religion discussion sites.)

I misunderstood.
I just wondered how a reasonable Theist would be treated on Atheistic site.

[graatz]

self proclaimed athiests

What's with the modifier? A little redundant, don't you think? :eh:

why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?

Each probably has a slightly different answer. I enjoy religion and philosophy, and the honored guests here really discuss these topics quite well :D I'm not seeking answers, per se, but I do enjoy picking the brains of people with differing worldviews.

[Meriweather]

I misunderstood.
I just wondered how a reasonable Theist would be treated on Atheistic site.

Maybe some day when I'm bored (or become SUPER annoyed with coins floating in front of me), I'll go on a recon mission.

However, in real life and on this forum I've found atheists to be an agreeable, lovable group as a whole. I expect I would be treated well, because people tend to enjoy reasonable discussions and tend to be what they are--i.e., decent human beings.

[LeroyBrown]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?

To observe Christians in the "wild". Think Gorillas in the Mist just without as much body hair.

Are they seeking answers?Yes but probably not the ones Christian's think they are seeking.

[Marleysdaddy]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests [sic] of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?


to do my civic duty as a gadfly ;)

[Gidon]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?



Because since they have no hope of an afterlife they love to have fun at believers' expense in this life.

We know their attempts as HUBRIS.

[5thIDSoldier]

Religion is never the answer.

[optrader]

Religion is never the answer.

Perhaps you're not asking the right question...

[Harmonious]

Maybe some day when I'm bored (or become SUPER annoyed with coins floating in front of me), I'll go on a recon mission.

The coins are annoying me, too.

[Harmonious]

Because since they have no hope of an afterlife they love to have fun at believers' expense in this life.

We know their attempts as HUBRIS.That is a disrespectful answer, Gidon.

[Values]

What's with the modifier? A little redundant, don't you think? :eh:



Each probably has a slightly different answer. I enjoy religion and philosophy, and the honored guests here really discuss these topics quite well :D I'm not seeking answers, per se, but I do enjoy picking the brains of people with differing worldviews.

I said "self-proclaimed" only because most athiests I have met turn out to be agnostic.

I too enjoy picking brains.
Here is to a healthy discussion.:dance:

[Values]

To observe Christians in the "wild". Think Gorillas in the Mist just without as much body hair.

Yes but probably not the ones Christian's think they are seeking.

The tell us what questions you actually have.

[graatz]

I said "self-proclaimed" only because most athiests I have met turn out to be agnostic.

Well, given that there is no governing board of atheism, it's a little redundant to call us "self-proclaimed." A person can be an atheist and an agnostic. But then again, I know we've already had this discussion and for some reason you refuse to learn the difference between the two terms...

[Values]

Well, given that there is no governing board of atheism, it's a little redundant to call us "self-proclaimed." A person can be an atheist and an agnostic. But then again, I know we've already had this discussion and for some reason you refuse to learn the difference between the two terms...

You are the only one that I have come across with your interpretation.
Is it possible that you are confused on this?

[Values]

It is a nettling vexation to be misunderstood, is it not?:)

Being an athiest means you believe there is NO God, this does not open discussion to agnostisism unless you change your belief or were never an athiest in the forst place.

[graatz]

You are the only one that I have come across with your interpretation.
Is it possible that you are confused on this?

It is possible that you have a limited or narrow experience with atheists and agnostics. You are using a "layman" definition of agnosticism that basically makes us sound like fence-sitters on the issue. Agnostics do not believe that the existence of god can be knowable, or at very least isn't known at this time. If you don't believe there is proof of any gods, or that there can even be proof of gods, then it's still up to the individual whether to believe in them (theist) or not (atheist).

[Values]

It is possible that you have a limited or narrow experience with atheists and agnostics. You are using a "layman" definition of agnosticism that basically makes us sound like fence-sitters on the issue. Agnostics do not believe that the existence of god can be knowable, or at very least isn't known at this time. If you don't believe there is proof of any gods, or that there can even be proof of gods, then it's still up to the individual whether to believe in them (theist) or not (atheist).

A true athiest believes as does a true theist.
You sound as though you want to redefine agnostic beliefs so that you can feel better about your stance.
If you believe that you cannot know then believe it, who am I to say that you need to be for or against an arguement.

[European]

Religion is never the answer.


No, because the answer is 42


BTW:
Have you ever thought about the fact that buddism is also a form of atheism.Just wanted to mention it :D

[graatz]

If you believe that you cannot know then believe it

Thanks for the permission :angel:

[Gidon]

That is a disrespectful answer, Gidon.

Is it? When they can refer to Adonai as an immoral tyrant and that is ok? this is mild by comparison.

I know where you are coming from. Rabbinic Judaism in several way identifies with humanism. And even though modern Rabbinic Judaism stresses more authority on Talmud than TANAKH, I know you love the Lord. Since I consider TANAKH more authority than Talmud perhaps I take more issue when the Creator is reviled by an insignificant creation.

Since we (you and I) are part of the the chosen, I'll stand up for and with HaShem every time. I would think + hope that you would as well. May the Lord bless you.

[Harmonious]

Is it? When they can refer to Adon- as an immoral tyrant and that is ok? this is mild by comparison. I hear what you are saying. I really do. However, I would be hypocritical if I would disallow people to say such things considering what I think and have said about Jesus.

Freedom of religion means freedom FROM religion. Apparently, you don't appreciate Jewish history the way I do. Enough Jews have been killed over the millenia for blasphemy, rightly or wrongly, for me to have severe empathy for anyone who disbelieves in God.

It isn't hubris for atheists to participate in discussions about religion any more than it is hubris for you to believe that Jesus is in any way God. Or the son of God. Or whatever you believe Jesus to be.

It is just a difference of opinion. I know that I believe I am right. You believe you are right. And they believe they are right. In 120 years (when we move off this mortal coil), we'll know for sure who was right. But until then, it is considered just as much hubris for atheists to have their beliefs or lack thereof as you do for having yours.

I know where you are coming from. Rabbinic Judaism in several way identifies with humanism. And even though modern Rabbinic Judaism stresses more authority on Talmud than TANAKH, I know you love the Lord. Since I consider TANAKH more authority than Talmud perhaps I take more issue when the Creator is reviled by an insignificant creation.Dude, you KNOW you are dead wrong. Rabbinic Judaism uses the Talmud to UNDERSTAND Tanach. Saying that we think more highly of one form of Law, be it Written or Oral, than the other is to show your ignorance of what Rabbinic Judaism IS.

Since we (you and I) are part of the the chosen, I'll stand up for and with HaShem every time. I would think + hope that you would as well. May the Lord bless you.God bless you too.

[Marleysdaddy]

I said "self-proclaimed" only because most athiests [sic] I have met turn out to be agnostic.


Can you explain what you mean here? One can simultaneously be an atheist and an agnostic, or a theist and an agnostic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Theism/atheism concerns the existence of gods
Agnosticism concerns what humans can know.

[Harmonious]

yes, it is.

"they?" who is "they?" do you mean all athesits? Do you know all atheists? Have you heard all atheist insult adonai in the way you describe above? I think we all know the answer to that.

You think so? I disagree. Describing the way god is described in the bible is one thing. Anyone can go to the bible and see how god is described. If the above description of god is inaccurate, anyone can see that. However, you are personally insulting an entire group of human beings, not a description of god, which, in essence, is simply an opinion.

The creator is not reviled just because an opinion about him/her/it is criticized.

Standing up for hashem and attacking fellow creatures of god are not the same thing. Just own up to the fact that it is atheists' disagreement with you that bugs you, and we're good to go.:)
+1

[Marleysdaddy]

Being an athiest [sic] means you believe there is NO God, this does not open discussion to agnostisism [sic]...

Agnosticism deals with knowledge, not belief.

One can believe there is a god, but not have certain knowledge there is a god...this person would be an agnostic theist.

[Values]

1. The above is an oversimplification.
2. The above, with all due respect, is not your determination to make.:)

Athiesm isn't a religion is it?
Why shouldn't someone be able to say that one who does not believe in a God is an athiest.

Interesting way for this discussion to go.
People seem to be getting bent out of shape by defining the words atheism and agnostic.
They are just words to describe a belief/value.
I do not get upset when someone calls me a theist.

Touchy people out there, I seem to have hit a chord.
Maybe there is more to coming to a religion forum than previously stated.

[Marleysdaddy]

You sound as though you want to redefine agnostic beliefs so that you can feel better about your stance.


Graatz is using the definitions that most theologians and philosophers use...you are using your own definitions.

[Values]

Agnosticism deals with knowledge, not belief.

One can believe there is a god, but not have certain knowledge there is a god...this person would be an agnostic theist.

If it makes you feel better.

Webster says:
Agnostic:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

athe·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1archaic : ungodliness , wickedness
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

[Marleysdaddy]

If it makes you feel better.

Webster says:
Agnostic:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

Graatz and I are using the first part of definition #1...regarding religious beliefs, an agnostic would hold the view "that any ultimate reality is unknown..." that does not preclude one from believing in said ultimate reality.

The second part of definition one is a vague definition for laity.

[Marleysdaddy]

good article (emphasis mine)

Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. It is often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism[1], though it is not a religious declaration in itself. Agnosticism does not preclude religious belief; that is to say, an agnostic can be a theist or an atheist, but can be 'agnostically' so. Demographic research services normally list agnostics in the same category as atheists and/or non-religious people,[2] using 'agnostic' in the sense of 'noncommittal'.[3][dubious – discuss] However, this can be misleading given the existence of agnostic theists, who identify themselves as both agnostics in the original sense and followers of a particular religion. Some authors assert that it is possible to be both an atheist and an agnostic[4] and some nontheists self-identify as agnostic atheists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

[Values]

Graatz and I are using the first part of definition #1...regarding religious beliefs, an agnostic would hold the view "that any ultimate reality is unknown..." that does not preclude one from believing in said ultimate reality.

The second part of definition one is a vague definition for laity.

I guess you will have to excuse me if I choose to use the second half of the first definition "one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god"
It is just as valid even if it uses a broader scope.
I really do not care how you want to describe your beliefs, if you want to call youself an agnostic, fine, it will come with a certain view of how others see your stance though.

[Marleysdaddy]

No, it's not touchy people. It's people who know what the words mean and insist on the discussion revolving around correct definitions of the words, with all due respect. The fact that a person insists on accurately defining the terms of the debate doesn't make that person touchy.:)

:clap:

[Marleysdaddy]

I guess you will have to excuse me if I choose to use the second half of the first definition "one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god"
It is just as valid even if it uses a broader scope.

It's not a broader scope...it's a more narrow one. Agnosticism isn't confined to religious beliefs. You could be agnostic about whether or not Jupiter exists. The second definition limits 'agnostic' to discussion of religion only.

I really do not care how you want to describe your beliefs, if you want to call youself an agnostic, fine, it will come with a certain view of how others see your stance though.
"Others" being you...many people use the definitions Graatz, myself, and many others in this forum use.

By the way, currently I am an agnostic deist.

[Values]

No, it's not touchy people. It's people who know what the words mean and insist on the discussion revolving around correct definitions of the words, with all due respect. The fact that a person insists on accurately defining the terms of the debate doesn't make that person touchy.:)

Well I gave you websters def.
That will have to do.
Can we now move on with why athiests come to a forum like this?

[Marleysdaddy]

Well I gave you websters def.
That will have to do.
If you are using that definition, and everyone else is using the other definitions, this discussion will go nowhere.
Can we now move on with why athiests come to a forum like this?
Many of them have answered...it looks like they come here to discuss and learn.

[Values]

It's not a broader scope...it's a more narrow one. Agnosticism isn't confined to religious beliefs. You could be agnostic about whether or not Jupiter exists. The second definition limits 'agnostic' to discussion of religion only.


"Others" being you...many people use the definitions Graatz, myself, and many others in this forum use.

By the way, currently I am an agnostic deist.

I like how even a black and white issue becomes grey when people have time on their hands.
I get that you do not want to acknowledge that there is evidence to a God out there and cannot bring yourself to commit to that it is knowable, but where would you get the belief that there is a God in the first place if you also say it is unknowable?
Btw....google only seems to recognize your position through user defined blogs and forums. Is there a real site supporting your stance?

[RayMan]

<snip> The second definition limits 'agnostic' to discussion of religion only.
<snip>


Which I think is what we are discussing within this thread...Of course, I am just going by the thread title. :angel:

[Marleysdaddy]

I like how even a black and white issue becomes grey when people have time on their hands.
This was never a black and white issue...your efforts to make it such are commissions of the fallacy of false dilemma.
I get that you do not want to acknowledge that there is evidence to a God out there
There isn't any evidence of a god...if there were, it wouldn't be religion...it would be science.

and cannot bring yourself to commit to that it is knowable, but where would you get the belief that there is a God in the first place if you also say it is unknowable?
Ask Augustine, or Pascal, or Aquinas, or the millions of other theologians who believed that a deity existed, but did not Know (with certainty) that a god existed.
Btw....google only seems to recognize your position through user defined blogs and forums. Is there a real site supporting your stance?
Search for 'agnosticism' in the Stanford Enyclopaedia of Philosophy...it is an excellent source.

[Tim]

This discussion has come up several times recently. I'm not sure what Value's point is or why his position is so important to him. Regardless of how the terms are defined (and many terms have varying and nuanced meanings, by the way) I think that most atheists call themselves atheist because they don't believe in god(s). Whether they believe that there remains a possibility of god(s) existing or not doesn't change their lack of a belief in any god(s).

How these nuances in defining the terms has any bearing on this discussion escapes me.

It has been stated by me and probably every other atheist on this forum that we are here for the discussion of ideas, the cyber-friendships and fellowship and to expand our worldview and understanding of others with whom we have some agreements and some disagreements.

[Values]

This was never a black and white issue...your efforts to make it such are commissions of the fallacy of false dilemma.

There isn't any evidence of a god...if there were, it wouldn't be religion...it would be science.

Ask Augustine, or Pascal, or Aquinas, or the millions of other theologians who believed that a deity existed, but did not Know (with certainty) that a god existed.

Search for 'agnosticism' in the Stanford Enyclopaedia of Philosophy...it is an excellent source.

There is either a God or there is not....black or white.
Just because we overthink things to assuage our hearts and mids doesn't change that.
Your belief that there is no evidence of God shows your unwillingness to see what is right in front of you. I could point out all aspect of God and you would choose to igonre it or turn away and for that I am sorry that I cannot convince you.
I believe that if Jesus came down today and performed miracles most would choose to not believe, citing magic or slight of hand. We tend to only see what we want and only that that fits our vision. Our society has become one that only believes what we are told and choose to not delve deeper to find truth. It is why MTV and Katie Curic are more known than our neighbors and pastors are to us.

[Values]

This discussion has come up several times recently. I'm not sure what Value's point is or why his position is so important to him. Regardless of how the terms are defined (and many terms have varying and nuanced meanings, by the way) I think that most atheists call themselves atheist because they don't believe in god(s). Whether they believe that there remains a possibility of god(s) existing or not doesn't change their lack of a belief in any god(s).

How these nuances in defining the terms has any bearing on this discussion escapes me.

It has been stated by me and probably every other atheist on this forum that we are here for the discussion of ideas, the cyber-friendships and fellowship and to expand our worldview and understanding of others with whom we have some agreements and some disagreements.

Your view mirrors what other athiests have stated about why they come to a religion forum. I am truly interested why someone who professes to not even believe will come to a place set aside to discsussion about those very beliefs. Why the desire for knowledge?Is your faith in your belief subject to change?
Do athiests have a conviction akin to mine in my Faith?
Athiests seem to come here more to state their beliefs than actually listen and learn.
Your admission that some athiests may "believe that there remains a possibility of god(s) existing or not" points more to a wavering in belief than anything else, aand this leads me to wonder if maybe they are here for Truth about God.

[graatz]

We tend to only see what we want and only that that fits our vision.

+1, but I don't think you meant to shoot yourself in the foot like that :eek:

[graatz]

and this leads me to wonder if maybe they are here for Truth about God.

And yet, that's not an answer that's been given. :doh: I wonder if you started this thread out of actual curiosity, or if you have a conclusion in mind, and that you are scouring through everything that's said in hopes that something you read will confirm your suspicions...

[Values]

+1, but I don't think you meant to shoot yourself in the foot like that :eek:

Just because I believe something does not mean I shut my eyes or hide my head.
My foot is fine, I'm not going to hold my toungue just because someone likes to point fingers rather than ask questions.

[Tim]

Your view mirrors what other athiests have stated about why they come to a religion forum. I am truly interested why someone who professes to not even believe will come to a place set aside to discsussion about those very beliefs. Why the desire for knowledge?Is your faith in your belief subject to change?
Do athiests have a conviction akin to mine in my Faith?
Athiests seem to come here more to state their beliefs than actually listen and learn.
Your admission that some athiests may "believe that there remains a possibility of god(s) existing or not" points more to a wavering in belief than anything else, aand this leads me to wonder if maybe they are here for Truth about God.

Whatever floats your boat. :dance:

[Values]

And yet, that's not an answer that's been given. :doh: I wonder if you started this thread out of actual curiosity, or if you have a conclusion in mind, and that you are scouring through everything that's said in hopes that something you read will confirm your suspicions...

I believe that Athiests don't believe in God(s) that is what they do.
How about you Graatz, outside of learning how religion works do you have any other motives for coming here?

[graatz]

Just because I believe something does not mean I shut my eyes or hide my head.

I see... you don't, but we do... :whistle:

[graatz]

How about you Graatz, outside of learning how religion works do you have any other motives for coming here?

Must have missed my response?

I enjoy religion and philosophy, and the honored guests here really discuss these topics quite well :D I'm not seeking answers, per se, but I do enjoy picking the brains of people with differing worldviews.

I'm pretty good on how religion works, actually, although seeing how everyone interprets it is pretty fascinating. :D

[Values]

I see... you don't, but we do... :whistle:

I didn't say you did, I said people do.
You took that sentence out as one indicting you......hmmmmmmm.
Very seldom do I get asked any questions about how and what I believe in all of the Hannity forums. There is a huge assumption that most people go by in that they choose to categorize others to fit their boxes. This really isn't a forum on enlightening yourself by most people, it is usually a place where peple annonimously come to air their thoughts, beliefs and prejudices and the turn off their computer feeling vindicated and justified in their stance.
This leads me to ask questions and delve further than the usual rhetoric. It usually goes nowhere, as is evidenced by the arguement over what an agnostic is. But, sometimes, someone lets down their guard and actually has a discussion on beliefs and thoughts. I may disagree with most atiests here but their value to God is more than I could ever know, so understanding is the least I can do.

[Marleysdaddy]

There is either a God or there is not....black or white.
Theism/atheism is not the issue we were discussing...how agnosticism fit with theism/atheism was the issue...and it is gray.

Your belief that there is no evidence of God shows your unwillingness to see what is right in front of you.
That is not my belief...it is a fact. If there were phenomena (read: evidence) of the existence of a god, there would be no need for faith. Belief in a god would be equivalent to belief that the moon affected the tides.

We tend to only see what we want and only that that fits our vision. Our society has become one that only believes what we are told and choose to not delve deeper to find truth. It is why MTV and Katie Curic [sic] are more known than our neighbors and pastors are to us.

You may speak for yourself...none of that paragraph pertains to me. I am a scientist and a philosopher...my very purpose is to delve deeper.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Your view mirrors what other athiests have stated about why they come to a religion forum. I am truly interested why someone who professes to not even believe will come to a place set aside to discsussion about those very beliefs.


I'm here for the beer and popcorn.

[merryAtheist]

...We tend to only see what we want and only that that fits our vision.

Your context suggests you are referring to nonbelievers, but if it's true for nonbelievers, it is equally true for believers as well.

Everyone has their own control beliefs, their "lenses" if you wish, through which they view the world. It's part of being human.

For this atheist, lack of belief in God is not one of these control beliefs.

My Control Belief:
I'll tell you what I do believe: I believe the universe is a random, natural, brute fact, and that everything can be explained from that point of view.

There may or may not be a God, but since I believe there are reasonable explanations for everything within the structure of this universe, I see no need to go beyond it to suppose the existence of a being outside space-time. Therefore God, or belief in God, is unnecessary.

For that reason, I have no belief in God. This is not the same as "Believing there is no God".

I am an atheist, not because I cannot know there is (or isn't) a God, nor because I choose to indoctrinate myself to believe in God's non-existence (which frankly makes little sense to me), but because the idea of God is, among other things, too poorly defined to be worthy of belief, and even more, God is an irrelevance when compared to the nature of the universe.

[graatz]

I didn't say you did, I said people do.

Well, you really kinda said that atheists do:

Your belief that there is no evidence of God shows your unwillingness to see what is right in front of you. I could point out all aspect of God and you would choose to igonre it or turn away and for that I am sorry that I cannot convince you.

All I'm saying is that when you say: "We tend to only see what we want and only that that fits our vision," (ibid.) perhaps it is you who has willingness to see what is right in front of you as proof of God. You, however, seem to think you are immune to confirmation bias while assuming that all atheists have it, just by act of being an atheist (P.S., Mr. Dictionary-Definitions, it is spelled "-e-i-s-t"; I'm beginning to think your misspelling is deliberate).

[Tim]

I didn't say you did, I said people do.
You took that sentence out as one indicting you......hmmmmmmm.
Very seldom do I get asked any questions about how and what I believe in all of the Hannity forums. There is a huge assumption that most people go by in that they choose to categorize others to fit their boxes. This really isn't a forum on enlightening yourself by most people, it is usually a place where peple annonimously come to air their thoughts, beliefs and prejudices and the turn off their computer feeling vindicated and justified in their stance.
This leads me to ask questions and delve further than the usual rhetoric. It usually goes nowhere, as is evidenced by the arguement over what an agnostic is. But, sometimes, someone lets down their guard and actually has a discussion on beliefs and thoughts. I may disagree with most atiests here but their value to God is more than I could ever know, so understanding is the least I can do.

Are you sure that you are being completely honest with yourself? I ask this because you have refused to accept the answers that heve been given repeatedly. And now you presume to know why "most people" post on these boards.

As for me, my reasons for posting vary depending on what I am doing at the time. Sometimes I just come here to joke around with some of the regulars like Rayman, Koushi, Marley, etc. etc. It's fun. I'm not sure how much fun it would be if I tried to get inside the psyche of each person though or to try and figure out their "motives" for posting.

I look at this as kind of like going to a local bar, hanging out watching a game and shooting the breeze with the folks who are there at the time... converstions revolve around sports, politics, philosophy, religion, kids, wives, ex-wives, and all sorts of other topics. It's just fun... simple as that.

[Gidon]

I hear what you are saying. I really do. However, I would be hypocritical if I would disallow people to say such things considering what I think and have said about Jesus.

That is for another topic. I know that you don't believe man's need for a redeemer. But I have love for and pray constantly for the Jewish people, my people. And because I once believed as you did. But you do believe in HaShem and that is better than hating Him as some on this site do.


Freedom of religion means freedom FROM religion. Apparently, you don't appreciate Jewish history the way I do. Enough Jews have been killed over the millenia for blasphemy, rightly or wrongly, for me to have severe empathy for anyone who disbelieves in God.

I do appreciate Jewish history. I understand that many who called themselves Christians committed atrocities against the Jewish people as well as many who did not believe in any God. Anyone who had done such and have not repented are surely in a devil's hell forever. So I understand your distrust for Christians. I am not out to convert you and am no threat to the Jewish Identity. Because I follow Rabbi Yeshua many in the Jewish community see me as a traitor. But they will not find one who loves and supports them more, save Adonai, of course than me.


It isn't hubris for atheists to participate in discussions about religion any more than it is hubris for you to believe that Jesus is in any way God. Or the son of God. Or whatever you believe Jesus to be.

True it is more arrogance on their part especially when they cast aspersions on the God of Israel. But it will prove to be hubris after they have taken their last breath on this earth.


It is just a difference of opinion. I know that I believe I am right. You believe you are right. And they believe they are right. In 120 years (when we move off this mortal coil), we'll know for sure who was right. But until then, it is considered just as much hubris for atheists to have their beliefs or lack thereof as you do for having yours.

Again, no problem with debate and discussion but when they attack I will defend. We have been so conditioned by them to be so politically correct that we will let them defacto slam our God. So it is no surprise to me that when someone pushes back they cry foul.



Dude, you KNOW you are dead wrong. Rabbinic Judaism uses the Talmud to UNDERSTAND Tanach. Saying that we think more highly of one form of Law, be it Written or Oral, than the other is to show your ignorance of what Rabbinic Judaism IS.

God bless you too.

All I remember is when I was a boy the Rabbi tried to drill in my head that most of Tanakh was more allegorical and that Talmud was revelation. He stressed new thought was better than old thought.


As for dealing with the God haters, I will share the opinion of King David. And btw I believe that story to be literal.

1Sa 17:26 And David spake to the men that stood by him, saying, What shall be done to the man that killeth this Philistine, and taketh away the reproach from Israel? for who [is] this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?

[Tim]

I'm here for the beer and popcorn.

time for a beer already? :eek: Make mine a lite, please... I'm trying to watch my figure. :D

[RayMan]

time for a beer already? :eek: Make mine a lite, please... I'm trying to watch my figure. :D

So buy a wider mirror. :whistle:

[RayMan]

I see... you don't, but we do... :whistle:

Is that a reworking of, "I know you are, but what am I?"

[Tim]

So buy a wider mirror. :whistle:

Ouch! That really hurt. :))

[Values]

Do any of you "athiests" have a theory on how life began on this planet?

[Marleysdaddy]

Well, you really kinda said that atheists do:


And even funnier, Values said it to a non-atheist :D

[Values]

The Websters definition is not the definition that is used among theological scholars, and since we're discussing the finer points of the topic, we will adhere to the technical definitions.:)

In other words, we don't like the definition used so we will come up with one that better fits how we feel today.
Do agnostics know anything for certain?

[Marleysdaddy]

Do any of you "athiests" [sic] have a theory on how life began on this planet?

Not an atheist, but they've elected me to speak for them :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Current_models

[Values]

And even funnier, Values said it to a non-atheist :D

I have yet to find an athiest on this board.
They all have hedged their bets so far.
You, I place squarely in the "i don't know " group

[Marleysdaddy]

In other words, we don't like the definition used so we will come up with one that better fits how we feel today.
That's not at all what Mikko said...you're kicking a straw man.

Do agnostics know anything for certain?

If they are agnostic regarding everything? nope.

I haven't met anyone who is agnostic regarding [/QUOTE]everything...most agnostics will acknowledge that there are some truths of mathematics and logic that humans can know with certainty.

[RayMan]

That's not at all what Mikko said...you're kicking a straw man.


If they are agnostic regarding everything? nope.

I haven't met anyone who is agnostic regarding everything...most agnostics will acknowledge that there are some truths of mathematics and logic that humans can know with certainty.

Of course we do have those who aren't sure if they dreamed they were a butterfly or if a butterfly dreamed it was them. :whistle:

[Marleysdaddy]

I have yet to find an athiest [sic] on this board.

Then you are ignoring their posts - Tim is an atheist, Sketch is also an atheist.

You, I place squarely in the "i don't know " group

That may be because you ignored the post where I said I was an agnostic deist.

[Values]

Not an atheist, but they've elected me to speak for them :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Current_models

Did you actually read this?
At least they were honest and started with the ol' "I don't know" theory.
That is my favorite of athiests and agnostics alike.

[Values]

Then you are ignoring their posts - Tim is an atheist, Sketch is also an atheist.



That may be because you ignored the post where I said I was an agnostic deist.

Saying you are an athiest and actually believing in no God are two distinct things.
I already know that you know there is a God but don't know there is a God....got it.

[Marleysdaddy]

Of course we do have those who aren't sure if they dreamed they were a butterfly or if a butterfly dreamed it was them. :whistle:

:shhh:



I'll have you know that currently I am firmly an agnostic deist - :snooty:

[Marleysdaddy]

Did you actually read this?
yes
At least they were honest and started with the ol' "I don't know" theory.
All of science is '"I don't Know" theories'...what else were you expecting?

[Marleysdaddy]

Saying you are an athiest [sic] and actually believing in no God are two distinct things.
yes...but I have no reason to not believe Tim or Sketch...everything they have posted has been consistent with the position of atheism
I already know that you know there is a God but don't know there is a God....got it.

kicking another straw man...

[RayMan]

:shhh:



I'll have you know that currently I am firmly an agnostic deist - :snooty:

It's not a one size fits all philosophy.

[Marleysdaddy]

It's not a one size fits all philosophy.

What isn't?

[markd]

Saying you are an athiest and actually believing in no God are two distinct things.
I already know that you know there is a God but don't know there is a God....got it.I do not believe any god exists of any form.

[RayMan]

What isn't?

My point exactly.

[graatz]

I haven't met anyone who is agnostic regarding everything...most agnostics will acknowledge that there are some truths of mathematics and logic that humans can know with certainty.

Truth within a system, yes. But in those systems truth is well-defined. Reality isn't exactly a well-defined system. I don't think we can know anything, because we cannot discern what is real from how we perceive it. This is an obstacle that we cannot avoid. If I only have perception, how do I know what is real? :eh: FWIW, I believe that my perceptions constitute a system of operational reality, and there can be truth within that system.

[Marleysdaddy]

My point exactly.

ahh... I agree with you.

I thought you might have meant that agnostic deist wasn't a one size fits all philosophy.

What was your point in bringing that up? I'm intrigued/confused...:D

[Marleysdaddy]

Truth within a system, yes. But in those systems truth is well-defined. Reality isn't exactly a well-defined system. I don't think we can know anything, because we cannot discern what is real from how we perceive it. This is an obstacle that we cannot avoid. If I only have perception, how do I know what is real? :eh: FWIW, I believe that my perceptions constitute a system of operational reality, and there can be truth within that system.

I agree with this...when I have questions on Kant, I'll come find you :)

[graatz]

I agree with this...when I have questions on Kant, I'll come find you :)

As far as I'm concerned, Kant's views on perception are validated with what we are learning about quantum mechanics. Our ability to perceive a thing limits our knowledge about that thing. :D

[Values]

yes

All of science is '"I don't Know" theories'...what else were you expecting?

Science is about finding the truth without prejudging your findings.
Just because you start with a Hypothesis ( educated guess) does not mean you assertain anything from that guess. If evidence points you away from that direction your hypothesis MUST be thrown out.

Often, science leads you to where you didn't see yourself going.
But should never use non-factual basis to get there.

[RayMan]

ahh... I agree with you.

I thought you might have meant that agnostic deist wasn't a one size fits all philosophy.

What was your point in bringing that up? I'm intrigued/confused...:D

Your line quoted below made me think of a couple of the more tedious folk who post here. The ones who are unable or unwilling to admit that anything is real outside the confines of their own minds. I find reading their posts to be an onerous task.


I haven't met anyone who is agnostic regarding everything...most agnostics will acknowledge that there are some truths of mathematics and logic that humans can know with certainty.

[Values]

I do not believe any god exists of any form.

Really?
No God whatsoever, not by any name, be it intelligent designer, alien master etc???
No diety whatsoever?

[Tim]

Really?
No God whatsoever, not by any name, be it intelligent designer, alien master etc???
No diety whatsoever?

Can't speak for Mark but I do not believe in any god(s). I don't have any clue as to what an intelligent designer or alien master is so I can't honestly give an answer to that.

I do not believe in any diety.

How much clearer can I (or the others who have said the same) be? Please share with us what you are trying to learn from/about those of us who don't believe in any deity. Why do you find it so difficult to accept what we have told you about ourselves? I find this whole line of discussion very curious.

[merryAtheist]

Saying you are an athiest and actually believing in no God are two distinct things.
I already know that you know there is a God but don't know there is a God....got it.

Valeus;
It's clear to me from the way you ignore the content of responses in this and other threads, that you are not really interested in discussion.

Ordinarily, I enjoy these conversations, but your refusal to allow others to define themselves as they wish is annoying, to say the least. You seem to seek debate, but only using your rules, and your definitions.

I am happy to deny you that opportunity.

Valeus, every single one of us, believer and nonbeliever, are agnostic with regard to knowledge of God. You yourself must offer the "I don't know" defense when it comes to knowledge of God, just like the nonbeliever. The difference is only a matter of degree.

We have offered many posts detailing why Atheism can be something other than "a belief there is no God." But you refuse to acknowledge even the possibility that we have the right to self-definition. That's just plain rude.

I see no reason, Valeus, why anyone should wish to continue this (or any further) discussion with you until you grant us the right to define our lack of belief as we see fit.

[merryAtheist]

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50547541&postcount=1

"Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot."

[Values]

Can't speak for Mark but I do not believe in any god(s). I don't have any clue as to what an intelligent designer or alien master is so I can't honestly give an answer to that.

I do not believe in any diety.

How much clearer can I (or the others who have said the same) be? Please share with us what you are trying to learn from/about those of us who don't believe in any deity. Why do you find it so difficult to accept what we have told you about ourselves? I find this whole line of discussion very curious.

It is not that I don't believe you it is only that when I start discussions with "athiests" they either profess to not believing their viewpoint or turn out to be agnostic.
I will take you at your word and start there.
As an athiest, do you have a belief or understanding of how life may have begun? I have to run for a while but I would truly like to know where someone who really does not believe in something outside themselves sees the universe.

[Values]

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50547541&postcount=1

"Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot."

If I prejudge you I wouldn't ask the questions I do now would I?
If you are a n athiest I would love to understand you, most people end up not being athiest, there are very few of you out there.

[Values]

Valeus;
It's clear to me from the way you ignore the content of responses in this and other threads, that you are not really interested in discussion.

Ordinarily, I enjoy these conversations, but your refusal to allow others to define themselves as they wish is annoying, to say the least. You seem to seek debate, but only using your rules, and your definitions.

I am happy to deny you that opportunity.

Valeus, every single one of us, believer and nonbeliever, are agnostic with regard to knowledge of God. You yourself must offer the "I don't know" defense when it comes to knowledge of God, just like the nonbeliever. The difference is only a matter of degree.

We have offered many posts detailing why Atheism can be something other than "a belief there is no God." But you refuse to acknowledge even the possibility that we have the right to self-definition. That's just plain rude.

I see no reason, Valeus, why anyone should wish to continue this (or any further) discussion with you until you grant us the right to define our lack of belief as we see fit.

I KNOW there is a God, just as much as you know there isn't one (assuming you an athiest)

[merryAtheist]

I KNOW there is a God, just as much as you know there isn't one (assuming you an athiest)

Thank you for proving my point.

From my point of view, there is no reason for, or benefit to be had, in further discussion.

[RayMan]

I KNOW there is a God, just as much as you know there isn't one (assuming you an athiest)

Hi Values,
I think you will find that most of the atheists around here draw a firm distinction between "believing" and "knowing." Tim for instance made it quite clear that he does not "believe" there is any God.

Since said atheists are most always scientifically inclined they generally avoid saying that the "know" there is no God since knowledge of something requires tangible evidence. Just thought I would give you a heads up on what using the word "know" will stir up in a thread like this.

Prepare to be blinded with science. :D

[Values]

Thank you for proving my point.

From my point of view, there is no reason for, or benefit to be had, in further discussion.

I see, an athiest can KNOW there is no God but anyone with an opposing view just can't be reasoned with.
If there is no God, where did you come from?

[Tim]

It is not that I don't believe you it is only that when I start discussions with "athiests" they either profess to not believing their viewpoint or turn out to be agnostic.
I will take you at your word and start there.
As an athiest, do you have a belief or understanding of how life may have begun? I have to run for a while but I would truly like to know where someone who really does not believe in something outside themselves sees the universe.

I think that if you truly wanted open discussion you would not use a phrase like "...who really does not believe in something outside themselves..."

You block discussion by trying to define someone else. I know of noone on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) who has ever said that they do not believe in anything outside themself.

Also, I've stated it before (as have others) that I do not know how life began. Furthermore, I personally have no driving interest in trying to find the answer. I'm satisfied with my life and in living it without knowing how life, in general, began.

Obviously there are people who are very interested in the topic and they spend their lives, vocationally (scientists), searching for those answers. What they do not do (and I do not do) is to make a leap of faith that simply says "a god did it" or "an alien life form did it" or "anything else, you fill in the blank, did it". They search for tangible evidence to assist them in formulating hypotheses that can be tested, challenge, tested, challenged, tested.....

That you and billions of other people are satisfied with believing that a god did it is fine with me. I used to believe the same but no longer do. In fact, I can't believe it now... anymore than I can will myself to believe in unicorns, faeries, ghosts, or a number of other things.

[Tim]

I see, an athiest can KNOW there is no God but anyone with an opposing view just can't be reasoned with.
If there is no God, where did you come from?

Now I think you're just trying to yank everyone's chain. You're quite the jokester, you are. ;)

[captusa]

......I would truly like to know where someone who really does not believe in something outside themselves sees the universe.

An excellent use of the, "Do you still beat your wife ? " technique.
I see an entire universe outside myself.
Find an Atheist that does not believe anything outside himself to ask the question.
Of course a person that does not believe anything outside himself would not believe in you (or a computer or the internet...)
Using a denograting description to ask a question is not appropriate for intelligent discussion on a forum where respect for the beliefs of others is required.

[Lie Sniper]

I think that if you truly wanted open discussion you would not use a phrase like "...who really does not believe in something outside themselves..."

You block discussion by trying to define someone else. I know of noone on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) who has ever said that they do not believe in anything outside themself.

Also, I've stated it before (as have others) that I do not know how life began. Furthermore, I personally have no driving interest in trying to find the answer. I'm satisfied with my life and in living it without knowing how life, in general, began.

Obviously there are people who are very interested in the topic and they spend their lives, vocationally (scientists), searching for those answers. What they do not do (and I do not do) is to make a leap of faith that simply says "a god did it" or "an alien life form did it" or "anything else, you fill in the blank, did it". They search for tangible evidence to assist them in formulating hypotheses that can be tested, challenge, tested, challenged, tested.....

That you and billions of other people are satisfied with believing that a god did it is fine with me. I used to believe the same but no longer do. In fact, I can't believe it now... anymore than I can will myself to believe in unicorns, faeries, ghosts, or a number of other things.

Tim? What's a faeries?

[Tim]

Tim? What's a faeries?

I don't know... never seen one!:))

fa·er·ie also fa·er·y (fā'ə-rē, fâr'ē) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n. pl. fa·er·ies


A tiny, mischievous, imaginary being; a fairy.

[captusa]

I see, an athiest can KNOW there is no God but anyone with an opposing view just can't be reasoned with.
If there is no God, where did you come from?

There is a difference in our beliefs.

Beliefs are a matter of faith.

My belief that there no transcendental Deity is as strong as the beliefs of anyone who beliefs differently.

I do not "KNOW" I am correct any more or less than you "KNOW" you are correct.
As was pointed out we are both convinced that each of us is correct and the other is wrong.


I do not have any desire to change your religious beliefs.

I enjoy discussing philosophies and beliefs.

This is called the religion forum.
I had assumed that it was for the discussion of religion and religions.
That includes the history of religous beliefs as well as the history of religious movements.
It should include discussions of similarity and differences in the various beliefs and belief systems.

What is the purpose of your question, "If there is no God, where did you come from ?"

I was told I was born in Albany, N.Y. as the result of a full term pregnancy.
I really have no personal recognition (I was very young at the time).
I do not have any knowledge of any divine interaction at the time.

Was your birth much different ?
Do you have any evidence of direct action by this God you speak of at your birth ?

You have very specific beliefs in a Deity.
I have an opposing view.
Can you reason with me ?

[Lie Sniper]

Snooty British spelling of "fairies."

:))

[Lie Sniper]

I don't know... never seen one!:))

fa·er·ie also fa·er·y (fā'ə-rē, fâr'ē) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n. pl. fa·er·ies


A tiny, mischievous, imaginary being; a fairy.


Nice Save! :razz:

[captusa]

Snooty British spelling of "fairies."

Darn! You beat me to it !
BTW I assume you know that Sir Arthur Cronan Doyle believed some little girls had taken pictures of faeries.

[Tim]

Nice Save! :razz:

Yep... I was sweatin' it. When I play Scrabble with my wife I make up words all the time... she thinks that I know more than I do so she's afraid to challenge me. :))

[Lie Sniper]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?

I've had several conversations with believers on this forum.
Why in the world do you come here?

Is it maybe to discuss religion?

[Lie Sniper]

Yep... I was sweatin' it. When I play Scrabble with my wife I make up words all the time... she thinks that I know more than I do so she's afraid to challenge me. :))

:))

[Lie Sniper]

There is a difference in our beliefs.

Beliefs are a matter of faith.

My belief that there no transcendental Deity is as strong as the beliefs of anyone who beliefs differently.

I do not "KNOW" I am correct any more or less than you "KNOW" you are correct.As was pointed out we are both convinced that each of us is correct and the other is wrong.


I do not have any desire to change your religious beliefs.

I enjoy discussing philosophies and beliefs.

This is called the religion forum.
I had assumed that it was for the discussion of religion and religions.
That includes the history of religous beliefs as well as the history of religious movements.
It should include discussions of similarity and differences in the various beliefs and belief systems.

What is the purpose of your question, "If there is no God, where did you come from ?"

I was told I was born in Albany, N.Y. as the result of a full term pregnancy.
I really have no personal recognition (I was very young at the time).
I do not have any knowledge of any divine interaction at the time.

Was your birth much different ?
Do you have any evidence of direct action by this God you speak of at your birth ?

You have very specific beliefs in a Deity.
I have an opposing view.
Can you reason with me ?

(Highlight by me)

Oh no, not this again................;)

[fdrake]

I've had several conversations with believers on this forum.
Why in the world do you come here?

Is it maybe to discuss religion?
Atheists are inherently curious. We also enjoy the silly posts of believers, christians, muslims or jews.

[RayMan]

Atheists are inherently curious. <snip> .

Hi fdrake,
You might want to read this "Must Read" thread entitled "Rules of Respect in the Religious Forum." We are held to a higher standard of politeness towards other's beliefs here in the RF than in the other forums on the board.

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=68516

[graatz]

Yep... I was sweatin' it. When I play Scrabble with my wife I make up words all the time... she thinks that I know more than I do so she's afraid to challenge me. :))

You need to play with a Scrabble dictionary... I'm pretty sure Scrabble is the third leading cause of divorce in America ( bdqmoi :mrgreen: )

[Koushi Shinigami]

(To the tune of "Streets of Loredo") I see by your vote count that you're a newcomer; therefore, I feel it incumbent upon me to issue you a friendly caveat (one I myself recently failed to heed, with predictable consequences):
Calling the posts of believers "silly" is disrespectful and, as such, is an actionable offense in these regions.:)

PSSSSSST!!!!! So is quoting disprespectful posts....:eek:

[Tim]

You need to play with a Scrabble dictionary... I'm pretty sure Scrabble is the third leading cause of divorce in America ( bdqmoi :mrgreen: )

Not worried about divorce... it's the large life insurance policy on me that keeps me awake at night. :eek::))

[Tim]

:naughty:fdrake

Not cool... not cool at all.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:wall: Thanks for the heads-up. I fixed it (in time, I hope).:)

IDK. :think: I make silly posts all the time, as does Ray, and CID, and Meri.... I have no problem with someone saying my posts are silly. I think it might not be an infraction. However, had he used the phrase 'silly believers', that might be a violation.

[Values]

I've had several conversations with believers on this forum.
Why in the world do you come here?

Is it maybe to discuss religion?

Are you asking why someone who believes in a religion would come to a religion forum???????
Why do those who do not believe in a religion come here, that was the question.

[Koushi Shinigami]

"Why ask 'why'"?

[Koushi Shinigami]

idk?

I
Don't
Know.

[Values]

There is a difference in our beliefs.

Beliefs are a matter of faith.

My belief that there no transcendental Deity is as strong as the beliefs of anyone who beliefs differently.

I do not "KNOW" I am correct any more or less than you "KNOW" you are correct.
As was pointed out we are both convinced that each of us is correct and the other is wrong.


I do not have any desire to change your religious beliefs.

I enjoy discussing philosophies and beliefs.

This is called the religion forum.
I had assumed that it was for the discussion of religion and religions.
That includes the history of religous beliefs as well as the history of religious movements.
It should include discussions of similarity and differences in the various beliefs and belief systems.

What is the purpose of your question, "If there is no God, where did you come from ?"

I was told I was born in Albany, N.Y. as the result of a full term pregnancy.
I really have no personal recognition (I was very young at the time).
I do not have any knowledge of any divine interaction at the time.

Was your birth much different ?
Do you have any evidence of direct action by this God you speak of at your birth ?

You have very specific beliefs in a Deity.
I have an opposing view.
Can you reason with me ?

Great post, thank you.
I obviously need to be careful how I phrase a question with you as you seem willing to be literal in your interpretation...that is fine I will try and accomodate you.
If you claim you do not know if there is a God how do you claim to not believe in one? If you truly do ot believe there is a God you should also know that to be true otherwise your belief is lacking.
I believe there is a New York City, I know there is one yet I have never been there. Now, you may try to argue that I do not know for sure (having never been there) and I would tell you that I do, knowing that it does not take one of my 5 senses to be engaged for me to actually know something.
Now, back to my first question: as an athiest what do you believe is the way life began on this planet? Hopefully you will answer this in the spirit it was asked and not dodge with a clever one liner that I am sure you could use if you wanted to.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?

Keeping tabs on the enemy....

[Values]

I think that if you truly wanted open discussion you would not use a phrase like "...who really does not believe in something outside themselves..."

You block discussion by trying to define someone else. I know of noone on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) who has ever said that they do not believe in anything outside themself.

Also, I've stated it before (as have others) that I do not know how life began. Furthermore, I personally have no driving interest in trying to find the answer. I'm satisfied with my life and in living it without knowing how life, in general, began.

Obviously there are people who are very interested in the topic and they spend their lives, vocationally (scientists), searching for those answers. What they do not do (and I do not do) is to make a leap of faith that simply says "a god did it" or "an alien life form did it" or "anything else, you fill in the blank, did it". They search for tangible evidence to assist them in formulating hypotheses that can be tested, challenge, tested, challenged, tested.....

That you and billions of other people are satisfied with believing that a god did it is fine with me. I used to believe the same but no longer do. In fact, I can't believe it now... anymore than I can will myself to believe in unicorns, faeries, ghosts, or a number of other things.

Where do you get your beliefs?
You do not believe in God(s), unicorns, ghosts etc.
What do you believe in?
If you do not have an outer force directing your beliefs where do you ge them? Is it through yourself only?(btw...this is the basis for my question of outside yourself)
It is ok if you don't have an answer, I just find it fascinating that someone thinks that they do not have a belief structure in place that tries to answer all their questions. You stated that you have no desire to understand how life began, fine, then why come here? Why listen and learn from those who do have those beliefs? Why come to a place where you know you will be challenged and asked to explain your views?

[Values]

Hi Values,
I think you will find that most of the atheists around here draw a firm distinction between "believing" and "knowing." Tim for instance made it quite clear that he does not "believe" there is any God.

Since said atheists are most always scientifically inclined they generally avoid saying that the "know" there is no God since knowledge of something requires tangible evidence. Just thought I would give you a heads up on what using the word "know" will stir up in a thread like this.

Prepare to be blinded with science. :D

Thanks for the heads up, I understand the desire of some to parse words. The same person who says they cannot know that God is real may tell you that they do know that the sun is hot. The idea I have is to get through the games to get to real discussion, it is probably hopeless but I will give it a go a bit longer.

[biggles53]

Where do you get your beliefs?
You do not believe in God(s), unicorns, ghosts etc.
What do you believe in?
If you do not have an outer force directing your beliefs where do you ge them? Is it through yourself only?(btw...this is the basis for my question of outside yourself)
It is ok if you don't have an answer, I just find it fascinating that someone thinks that they do not have a belief structure in place that tries to answer all their questions. You stated that you have no desire to understand how life began, fine, then why come here? Why listen and learn from those who do have those beliefs? Why come to a place where you know you will be challenged and asked to explain your views?

Why do you assume that a religious forum is a one-way street?

Why should it be only for the 'faithful'?

Where would an atheist discuss his/her atheism if NOT on a religious forum? Isn't atheism equally a religious concept as is theism?

And as for "challenged" and "asked to explain"?....look around. You will see FAR more "challenge" taking place between the 'faithful', than with atheists!

[Values]

Why do you assume that a religious forum is a one-way street?

Why should it be only for the 'faithful'?

Where would an atheist discuss his/her atheism if NOT on a religious forum? Isn't atheism equally a religious concept as is theism?

And as for "challenged" and "asked to explain"?....look around. You will see FAR more "challenge" taking place between the 'faithful', than with atheists!

Cool your jets...no-one said this forum was only for people of Faith, in fact I believe that it takes more faith to not believe in God, but that being said, relax, you may opine here if you wish.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Where do you get your beliefs?
You do not believe in God(s), unicorns, ghosts etc.
What do you believe in?
If you do not have an outer force directing your beliefs where do you ge them? Is it through yourself only?(btw...this is the basis for my question of outside yourself)
It is ok if you don't have an answer, I just find it fascinating that someone thinks that they do not have a belief structure in place that tries to answer all their questions. You stated that you have no desire to understand how life began, fine, then why come here? Why listen and learn from those who do have those beliefs? Why come to a place where you know you will be challenged and asked to explain your views?

Are you aware of what Tim's background is?

[terri910]

.The same person who says they cannot know that God is real may tell you that they do know that the sun is hot.
Some will even say they can not "know" that their daughter exists! :eek:

:mrgreen: I'll never forget that.

I don't think it's word games as much as exercising the grey matter.

[Values]

There are lots of things I do not know and probably never will know.

I do not mean to demean when I say that I believe Theists invented a Deity that is the answer to any questions they need answers to.
I believe God to be a man-made excuse to have every question answered by GODDIDIT.
This is my theology and I do not care if you accept it for yourself.
It certainly is not a new idea.
Neitzche plagarized his statement "The God of a Cat is in the image of a Cat" from the pre-Socratics and Man created God in his own image is probably only weeks younger than the Biblical converse.

Aside fom that the concept of a supreme being involved on an individual level with the beings on this or any other planet is less plausible to me than any almost anything I can think of.
Science exams the world as it can be perceived.
Just think of the plight of mankind if we accepted the Biblical interpetation of disease as a punishment by God.
If we extended that idea to its logical conclusion it could be concluded that to attempt to heal the sick would be interferring with God.

I do not know how life began on this planet.
As was pointed out, that is not a part of evolutionary theory.
Some biologist ignore the topic since it is of no use to them while others assume an abigenesis. (I favor ambigenesis).
I am far more satisfied with not knowing how life began than to throw it into the universal explaination "Goddidit".

If you claim to "know" the existance and the characteristics of a God, I claim it is no more or less "knowledge" than my knowledge of the improbability that one exists.

If you have faith in your Deity that is none of my business but I can not accept your apparent challenge "If you can't explain it then my Goddidit".

I believe the religion forum is to discuss religious philosophies and it would be futile to expect anyone to convince someone else their beliefs were wrong.
There is no need to be defensive or hostile to someone whose beliefs differ from yours.
If you feel that way then you should stay away from open forums.
If you expect to use a forum like this to convert others to your beliefs I fear you will be opening yourself to failure and frustration.
If you want to exchange ideas do not start out denograting the opinion you claim to wish to hear.

You did not do it on this post but I hope you realize that "I want to hear from someone who thinks there is nothing outside himself "* as not an invitation for respectful exchange of ideas.


*I'll replace this with a more accurate quote.

I had a response typed and ready to go and it was a doozy, I re-read it and realized I would be inflaming and already tortured soul.
I am truly sorry that you do not understand the concept of a knowledge of God, and the understanding that comes with belief in something greater than yourself.
Your desire to come here and bash people of Faith shows the hurt in your soul and I pray that it helps you.

[Lie Sniper]

Are you asking why someone who believes in a religion would come to a religion forum???????
Why do those who do not believe in a religion come here, that was the question.

I apologize. I intended to create a deeply reflective post that would highlight the most obvious answer to your question.

The question being, why are any of us here? I believe this could be asked to both believers and non-believers.

IMO, the obvious answer would be, to discuss religion.

Again, I apologize if I have confused you.

[Values]

I have never bashed people of faith in this forum.

If you can point out any instance where I bashed any person of faith I wish you would because I would like to clarify and apologize if it has occurred.
Pointing out that my beliefs differ from those of some people of faith is not "BASHING"

I do resent your insulting and condescending evalution of me as a tortured soul.
I did not at any time in our discussion insult or diminish your opinions.
I pointed out my beliefs that differed from yours.
I did not even identify your beliefs as wrong.
Just how they differed fom mine and that my opinion was no less valuble than yours.

If I had denograted your beliefs to the degree you did mine, I would be ejected from the religion forum.

I believe my background and study of philosphy, history of religion and epistomology to be sufficient to understand the concept of belief and faith quite well.
Please realize that there are people that disagree with you that do not deserve the patronizing attitude you exhibited.
If you wish to apologize I will consider forgiving you.

I appologize to the tortured soul comment, it was wrong of me.
I believe that I may have mixed your comments with some others made by someone else and it is actually their assetions that got me inflammed.

[Values]

I apologize. I intended to create a deeply reflective post that would highlight the most obvious answer to your question.

The question being, why are any of us here? I believe this could be asked to both believers and non-believers.

IMO, the obvious answer would be, to discuss religion.

Again, I apologize if I have confused you.

But since an athiest has no religion why come here to discuss it?
Is it possible that athiests are missing something deep inside them that uearns to have more?
Maybe they have shut out God, but He keeps knocking!

[Values]

That's not very nice.
You tell me you whet my appetite with the claim you have a comment whose prestige and quality compares to that of a Duessenburg then you won't let me see it.
:cry::cry::cry::cry:

My soul has withstood fifty years of torture and probably has an eternity to go.
Why deny me your claimed eloquence ?

Is this why you come to this forum, for someone to convince you of God?

[biggles53]

I had a response typed and ready to go and it was a doozy, I re-read it and realized I would be inflaming and already tortured soul.
I am truly sorry that you do not understand the concept of a knowledge of God, and the understanding that comes with belief in something greater than yourself.
Your desire to come here and bash people of Faith shows the hurt in your soul and I pray that it helps you.

I also take exception at your choice of language.

If I were to describe a person of faith as a 'deluded fool', I would be given (at least) a short vacation from this forum for my lack of respect (which is one reason why I would never label someone that way). To assert that an atheist is an example of a "tortured soul" is every bit as insulting to one who has no belief in such constructs.

You should withdraw.

[Lie Sniper]

But since an athiest has no religion why come here to discuss it?


I find lack of belief very interesting. I have enjoyed several discussions with the atheists on this forum. I'm interested in their opinions and how these opinions came about. I like that some challenge my belief and send me searching for answers. They give me a broader spectrum of thoughts and ideas in which to gain a deeper knowledge and understanding of what I believe.

So, why can't an atheist have the same intentions and experiences I have on this forum, so they also can learn, grow and test their lack of belief?

IMO, I think you should quit trying to diagnose them and start reading and comprehending what they have been nice enough to offer you in regards to your question. That is, if you truly intended on having a thought provoking discussion... :think:

[Fire Watch]

I see about 4 people about to be shown the door. I'll allow a couple of hours for self editing while I warm up the ban-hammer.

[Values]

I find lack of belief very interesting. I have enjoyed several discussions with the atheists on his forum. I'm interested in their opinions and how these opinions came about. I like that some challenge my belief and send me searching for answers. They give me a broader spectrum of thoughts and ideas in which to gain a deeper knowledge and understanding of what I believe.

So, why can't an atheist have the same intentions and experiences I have on this forum, so they also can learn, grow and test their lack of belief?

I think you should quit trying to diagnose them and start reading and comprehending what they have been nice enough to offer you in regards to your question. That is, if you truly intended on having a thought provoking discussion... :think:

Good advice, I guess I am looking for more than they are willing to give.

[Values]

No. It is to exchange ideas.
If you have a doozy of an idea or reply I would love to see it.
If it violates the rules of respect of the RF you can PM it too me.
To tease me with the existance of something eloquent that you prepared for me and keep it from me is indeed cruel.

eloquence has never been my strong suit, couple that with my horrible typing and I am afraid you get terse cryptic messages.
I will suffice it to only appologize for any ill will I have caused. I am an oaf in a china shop with my questions. I think I need to refine my approach to posing thought provoking questions .
thanks

[captusa]

eloquence has never been my strong suit, couple that with my horrible typing and I am afraid you get terse cryptic messages.
I will suffice it to only appologize for any ill will I have caused. I am an oaf in a china shop with my questions. I think I need to refine my approach to posing thought provoking questions .
thanks

I accept your apology.
And we had better heed Fire Watcher's warning

[merryAtheist]

eloquence has never been my strong suit, couple that with my horrible typing and I am afraid you get terse cryptic messages.
I will suffice it to only appologize for any ill will I have caused. I am an oaf in a china shop with my questions. I think I need to refine my approach to posing thought provoking questions .
thanks

No. You simply need to acknowledge the answers we give. It's supposed to be a dialogue, not a prosecution.

[Tim]

Where do you get your beliefs?

Life experience.... all the people I've met, books I've read, teachers under whom I sat, etc.

You do not believe in God(s), unicorns, ghosts etc.
What do you believe in?

To describe all I believe in would take far more time than I care to put into a forum.

If you do not have an outer force directing your beliefs where do you ge them? Is it through yourself only?(btw...this is the basis for my question of outside yourself)

See answer to the first question. I imagine that all people develop their beliefs from the same types of sources. As we journey through life, we develop ideas, philosophies, beliefs, etc. from all that we encounter.

It is ok if you don't have an answer, I just find it fascinating that someone thinks that they do not have a belief structure in place that tries to answer all their questions.

I don't understand your point...

You stated that you have no desire to understand how life began, fine, then why come here?

Again, I don't understand the question as regards "no desire to understand how life began". I've answered the question "why come here" numerous times.

In that the origin of life is not really even on my personal radar screen, it isn't something that motivates me one way or the other as regards this particular forum. I came to Hannity originally to discuss politics and noticed the RF. I read some of the threads and found myself chatting with the good folks in here. I enjoyed the discussions and have continued to come back.

Why listen and learn from those who do have those beliefs?

Why not? I've listened and learned from people with whom I've agreed and with whom I've disagreed on a number of different things throughout my life. I imagine that is true of all people. I can't imagine only conversing with people who think exactly as I think. That would be rather boring.

Why come to a place where you know you will be challenged and asked to explain your views?

Again, why not? I've always loved to be challenged and I have no problem explaining my views.

I really don't understand what you are driving at with these questions but have done my best to answer them honestly and sincerely.

[Tim]

Good advice, I guess I am looking for more than they are willing to give.

I am more than happy to answer any questions. However, some of your questions have included presuppositions that don't apply to me which makes them difficult to answer. Some of them seem to include accusations that appear to border on disrespect... I don't know if that is your intention or not but it does hinder open discussion.

[Values]

No. You simply need to acknowledge the answers we give. It's supposed to be a dialogue, not a prosecution.

Dialogue would suppose you ask questions too. Have any?

[Chuangtzu]

Mod warning in this thread. Fellow unbelievers, it's probably best to avoid these threads from now on. Good way to see the exit.

[Values]

Life experience.... all the people I've met, books I've read, teachers under whom I sat, etc.



To describe all I believe in would take far more time than I care to put into a forum.



See answer to the first question. I imagine that all people develop their beliefs from the same types of sources. As we journey through life, we develop ideas, philosophies, beliefs, etc. from all that we encounter.



I don't understand your point...



Again, I don't understand the question as regards "no desire to understand how life began". I've answered the question "why come here" numerous times.

In that the origin of life is not really even on my personal radar screen, it isn't something that motivates me one way or the other as regards this particular forum. I came to Hannity originally to discuss politics and noticed the RF. I read some of the threads and found myself chatting with the good folks in here. I enjoyed the discussions and have continued to come back.



Why not? I've listened and learned from people with whom I've agreed and with whom I've disagreed on a number of different things throughout my life. I imagine that is true of all people. I can't imagine only conversing with people who think exactly as I think. That would be rather boring.



Again, why not? I've always loved to be challenged and I have no problem explaining my views.

I really don't understand what you are driving at with these questions but have done my best to answer them honestly and sincerely.

Thank you for your answers, I really only mean to stimulate conversation not make this a one sided question and answer.
Do you have any questions of me?

[Values]

Mod warning in this thread. Fellow unbelievers, it's probably best to avoid these threads from now on. Good way to see the exit.

You should feel welcome to voice your opinions.

[Chuangtzu]

You should feel welcome to voice your opinions.

"Should feel" ≠ protected by the TOS.

[Values]

"Should feel" ≠ protected by the TOS.

Maybe you can use a toned down version and still get your point accross.

[Chuangtzu]

Maybe you can use a toned down version and still get your point accross.

Toned down version of what?

If a person admits unbelief, there are no protections for his or her opinions. This was an explicit mod decision. Der Guegler couldn't find it, because it was posted in the mod forum, and inside a thread no longer near the front page - but it was explicit.

Atheists aren't religious. Atheists don't have religious beliefs. Therefore, no "respect" protections for atheists. Makes responding to these sort of provocation threads an invitation to banning.

[Values]

Toned down version of what?

If a person admits unbelief, there are no protections for his or her opinions. This was an explicit mod decision. Der Guegler couldn't find it, because it was posted in the mod forum, and inside a thread no longer near the front page - but it was explicit.

Atheists aren't religious. Atheists don't have religious beliefs. Therefore, no "respect" protections for atheists. Makes responding to these sort of provocation threads an invitation to banning.

Sorry you see it as provocation.

[RayMan]

All a person has to do, believer or unbeliever, is be polite and respectful of other's opinions and beliefs in order to avoid banning.

[biggles53]

Toned down version of what?

If a person admits unbelief, there are no protections for his or her opinions. This was an explicit mod decision. Der Guegler couldn't find it, because it was posted in the mod forum, and inside a thread no longer near the front page - but it was explicit.

Atheists aren't religious. Atheists don't have religious beliefs. Therefore, no "respect" protections for atheists. Makes responding to these sort of provocation threads an invitation to banning.

I am most surprised by this - do you think you could direct me to that mod post...thanks.

[Meriweather]

Toned down version of what?

If a person admits unbelief, there are no protections for his or her opinions. This was an explicit mod decision. Der Guegler couldn't find it, because it was posted in the mod forum, and inside a thread no longer near the front page - but it was explicit.

Atheists aren't religious. Atheists don't have religious beliefs. Therefore, no "respect" protections for atheists. Makes responding to these sort of provocation threads an invitation to banning.

I disagree. There is protection for everyone who posts in the Religion Forum. I could trace these comments from Fire Watch back to the source if you need to see them yourself.

1. You do not have the right to make anyone feel unwelcome.

2. Civility. Respect. Address the post, do not attack the poster. Any violations will be dealt with.

This forum and the threads therein are not echo chambers..for any faith or religious belief system. If you start a thread, expect dissenting opinions. Don't get your underwear in a knot when someone disagrees with you..or with your disagreement.

Act like adults.

Without seeing the TTTM post you mention, I would suspect here is the kind of thing for which there is no protection: The Flying Spaghetti Monster is asinine; your stated belief in the FSM is asinine. However, no one may take the next step and say, "You are .....". The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not qualify as a religious belief. Therefore the "belief" is not protected by RF rules, but YOU certainly are.

In RF, one cannot use insulting or derogatory terms to describe God or a religious figure. One cannot use insulting or derogatory terms to describe religious beliefs. It is not against the rules of respect to insult something that is not a religious belief. A quick example that comes to mind is Harry Potter. There have been a couple of threads here where posters have been insulting to Harry Potter. However, Potter is not a religious belief or religious figure, and is therefore not covered under the special rules of respect even though the thread was here in RF.

No one needs to respond to threads they see as provocation threads. If one chooses to respond, then the response should, of course, be civil.

[Marleysdaddy]

I am most surprised by this - do you think you could direct me to that mod post...thanks.

I remember it...it arose because of a thread in the RF that asked "Is Atheism a religion?"

I believe a moderator reviewed the responses in the thread and came to the conclusion that since we, the honored guests, did not consider atheism a religion that it would not receive the same respect protections afforded other topics in this forum.

I don't know if that has been modified since then.

[Tim]

Thank you for your answers, I really only mean to stimulate conversation not make this a one sided question and answer.
Do you have any questions of me?

No... none that come to mind.

[Tim]

I remember it...it arose because of a thread in the RF that asked "Is Atheism a religion?"

I believe a moderator reviewed the responses in the thread and came to the conclusion that since we, the honored guests, did not consider atheism a religion that it would not receive the same respect protections afforded other topics in this forum.

I don't know if that has been modified since then.

I don't think atheism should receive the same protections that religions receive. I do think it behooves all of us to show respect to one another however.

On that note, I don't personally require respect in order to act respectfully. If I feel someone is being disrespectful to me, it's easy enough to simply avoid that individual's posts in the future.

[RayMan]

I don't think atheism should receive the same protections that religions receive. I do think it behooves all of us to show respect to one another however.

On that note, I don't personally require respect in order to act respectfully. If I feel someone is being disrespectful to me, it's easy enough to simply avoid that individual's posts in the future.

The guy is a class act folks. :clap: :clap:

[Marleysdaddy]

As far as I'm concerned, Kant's views on perception are validated with what we are learning about quantum mechanics. Our ability to perceive a thing limits our knowledge about that thing. :D

He was a very, very smart dude...(despite the fact that he is frustratingly difficult to read at times)

[Meriweather]

I remember it...it arose because of a thread in the RF that asked "Is Atheism a religion?"

I believe a moderator reviewed the responses in the thread and came to the conclusion that since we, the honored guests, did not consider atheism a religion that it would not receive the same respect protections afforded other topics in this forum.

I don't know if that has been modified since then.


I believe one of the purposes of that thread was NOT to deprive atheists of protections, but to also have us think on whether atheist discussions were better fitted to General Interest discussions and that forum rather than here in the Religion Forum.

One of the things I am not clear about this morning is exactly where and how atheists feel their beliefs (or non-beliefs) are being treated disrespectfully.

I haven't seen any specific case hit TTTM recently, which is where a case could be taken if there is a question.

[RayMan]

There is a thread on the subject in TTTM as we speak. I haven't read it but I noticed the thread title as I waltzed through TTTM a few moments ago.

[Marleysdaddy]

Science is about finding the truth

nope...Science is about finding what is not the truth. Science can only eliminate incorrect beliefs, it can not provide certain knowledge.

To learn more, google 'Problem of Induction'

[Marleysdaddy]

One of the things I am not clear about this morning is exactly where and how atheists feel their beliefs (or non-beliefs) are being treated disrespectfully.

I haven't seen any specific case hit TTTM recently, which is where a case could be taken if there is a question.

I don't believe any issues have arisen. Chuangtzu merely warned atheists to tread with caution.

[Meriweather]

I don't believe any issues have arisen. Chuangtzu merely warned atheists to tread with caution.

Oh! Kind of like we believers warn each other to tread with caution. I knew we all had something in common--and here it is!

[Marleysdaddy]

I have to run for a while but I would truly like to know where someone who really does not believe in something outside themselves sees the universe.

I see you are still beating up the straw men...give them a break. What did they ever do to you? :razz:

[Marleysdaddy]

Great post, thank you.
I obviously need to be careful how I phrase a question with you as you seem willing to be literal in your interpretation...that is fine I will try and accomodate you.
If you claim you do not know if there is a God how do you claim to not believe in one? If you truly do ot believe there is a God you should also know that to be true otherwise your belief is lacking.
I believe there is a New York City, I know there is one yet I have never been there. Now, you may try to argue that I do not know for sure (having never been there) and I would tell you that I do, knowing that it does not take one of my 5 senses to be engaged for me to actually know something.


Many people choose to be more careful with how they use the word 'Know'

For instance, I don't "Know" (with certainty) that there is even a New York City - The possibility exists that my sensory organs are flawed and giving me false data...or we could be in the Matrix...or we could be tricked by a malevolent deity...or...


...see how hard it is to arrive at absolute certainty?

[Marleysdaddy]

Thanks for the heads up, I understand the desire of some to parse words. The same person who says they cannot know that God is real may tell you that they do know that the sun is hot. The idea I have is to get through the games to get to real discussion, it is probably hopeless but I will give it a go a bit longer.

They're not games...when having a serious philosophical/theological discussion, it is vital that all participants be "on the same page" when it comes to definitions of words. Otherwise, unintended fallacies will arise.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/vaguenes.html

[Marleysdaddy]

Some will even say they can not "know" that their daughter exists! :eek:

:mrgreen: I'll never forget that.

I don't think it's word games as much as exercising the grey matter.

So I made an impression?

Thanks for the compliment...I think...:razz:

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I have had a lot of conversations with self proclaimed athiests of this forum and I would like to ask you all why you think they would come here?
Are they seeking answers?

Why do religious people go to gay pride parades?

Perhaps it helps to understand where the people you're debating with outside the RF are coming from.

I'm just guessing...I'm not actually an atheist. I'm a Methodist with questions.

[captusa]

I see about 4 people about to be shown the door. I'll allow a couple of hours for self editing while I warm up the ban-hammer.

I assume I am one of the 4.
I will abide by any ruling but do wonder what I posted that you might have considered close to the line or over it.

[captusa]

He was a very, very smart dude...(despite the fact that he is frustratingly difficult to read at times)

It has often been said of Kant, that his failure were greater than most people's successes.
I don't know how what quantum mechanics has to do with his ideas.

[captusa]

Maybe you can use a toned down version and still get your point accross.

Are you familiar with the phrase, "Physician heal thyself "?

[Marleysdaddy]

It has often been said of Kant, that his failure were greater than most people's successes.
I don't know how what quantum mechanics has to do with his ideas.

To simplify it (and I hope I'm not botching it), Kant thought that our perception of reality gave reality its structure...I think Graatz was pointing out similarities between that and the Observer effect in quantum mechanics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant#Kant.27s_theory_of_perception

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

[HardHammer]

Yes, it is.

"They?" Who is "they?" Do you mean all athesits? Do you know all atheists? Have you heard all atheist insult Adonai in the way you describe above? I think we all know the answer to that.

Does one need to know all atheists to know they ALL reject Gods Mercy, Saving Grace and Truth towards mankind?

You think so? I disagree. Describing the way God is described in the Bible is one thing. Anyone can go to the Bible and see how God is described. If the above description of God is inaccurate, anyone can see that. However, you are personally insulting an entire group of human beings, not a description of God, which, in essence, is simply an opinion.

I disagree, not just anyone can go to the Holy Bible and see how God is 'described'. It's Truth is revealed to 'Believers' as to Gods True Nature, it is in fact Atheists who make it out to be something other than what it actually is, 'The Power of God to Salvation'.

A TRUE Atheist will dispute the healing power of God in place of their own logical and/or rational justification for their existance, which has normally been gathered up by worldly knowledge of other men. The atheist starts most of their statements with 'I' putting themselves in the drivers seat as to the reality of mankind and of course their own reality.

The Creator is not reviled just because an opinion about Him/Her/It is criticized.

Standing up for HaShem and attacking fellow creatures of God are not the same thing. Just own up to the fact that it is atheists' disagreement with you that bugs you, and we're good to go.:)

Is it that he is bugged or just pitys them and is doing what he is commanded to do by spreading the Gospel to those who don't know it?

Having made all the atheist arguments before I came to know the Lord, may I say to you that it was not my desire to know more about God, but to tell 'Believers' what 'I' know about the world.

Having given up what 'I' know, to know Him. For all 'I' knew was from teachings of the World anyway. His teachings put us in a humble light, not the haughty light of our own introspection.

From my POV, there are 2 ways to come to God, 'His Way' or 'our own way'. His Way provides something our way does not, TRUTH...

[Mikko]

I disagree, not just anyone can go to the Holy Bible and see how God is 'described'. It's Truth is revealed to 'Believers' as to Gods True Nature, it is in fact Atheists who make it out to be something other than what it actually is, 'The Power of God to Salvation'.


Well, I disagree with this statment. I believe that anyone capable of reading can read the Bible and clearly see the way God is described. Some people believe the Biblical description of God is accurate, and some don't. And I disagree with the statement that it is a fact that atheists make it out to be something other than it is. It is an opinion that that is the case. As for the Power of God to Salvation, I certainly believe God has the power to save. I just don't believe the biblical description of that quality of the Creator captures it in its entirety, nor does it describe it with complete accuracy. As for the idea that Truth is only revealed to "believers," that is circular resoning in that it declares that one must believe something is true in order to see that it is the truth. There has to be something outside the circle to verify the experience.

[captusa]

I see you are still beating up the straw men...give them a break. What did they ever do to you? :razz:

I hate to complain to the Mods because miss talking to those that get banned but after last night's warning the post was obviously might to deride and incite.

[Chuangtzu]

I remember it...it arose because of a thread in the RF that asked "Is Atheism a religion?"

I believe a moderator reviewed the responses in the thread and came to the conclusion that since we, the honored guests, did not consider atheism a religion that it would not receive the same respect protections afforded other topics in this forum.

I don't know if that has been modified since then.

I have not seen it modified, hence my current question in the TTTM forum. Thanks for your input, as well, Marley.

[RayMan]

Are you familiar with the phrase, "Physician heal thyself "?

Touché cap.

[merryAtheist]

Dialogue would suppose you ask questions too. Have any?

I have not asked you any questions, because I never saw a response to my answers. That's how dialogue really works - someone asks a question; an answer is given; a conversation is started.

My impression in this thread (though perhaps I am mistaken) is that you asked a question, and then ignored the substance of the responses in favor of antagonistic assertions.

Please, Valeus, if you wish to truly have a dialogue or conversation, you must make an effort to understand our point of view. You do not have to accept it or agree with it, but at least extend to us the courtesy of an attempt at understanding.

[Tim]

I have not asked you any questions, because I never saw a response to my answers. That's how dialogue really works - someone asks a question; an answer is given; a conversation is started.

My impression in this thread (though perhaps I am mistaken) is that you asked a question, and then ignored the substance of the responses...

(snip)

FWIW, that has been my impression/observation as well.

[Values]

FWIW, that has been my impression/observation as well.

Really, no dialogue between you and I??

[Tim]

Really, no dialogue between you and I??

Not before the most recent exchange which I thought went very nicely. Prior to that you seemed to ignore everything anyone else said or implied that they were simply wrong.

An example would be the discussions of atheism and agnosticism. Several people have attempted to explain how it is possible to be both atheist and agnostic but you've not seemed to even acknowledge their posts or ask for further clarification as to their meaning.

I've asked a couple of times why the nuances of differences in the definitions are important to you but you didn't respond.

Just to clarify that minor point (which I don't think is overly important) I've only met a couple of people who think as you do regarding the terms. Every other forum I've participated in or conversation I've had was with folks who accept that a person can be an atheist in that they do not believe in god(s) while also being agnostic in that they do not claim to know for an absolute fact whether any god(s) exist anywhere in time or space.

The first (atheism) speaks to "belief" while the second (agnosticism) speaks to "knowledge". As such, I would say that I am an agnostic atheist while my dear wife is an agnostic theist.

Agnostic atheist - I do not think it can be known with absolute certainty but I do not believe in any god(s).

Agnostic theist - My wife does not think it can be known with absolute certainty but she does believe that the probability of a god existing is highly likely.... she believes in god(s) but not as God is described in any religious doctrine of which she is aware. She thinks that "God" is much like the God of the Bible but not exactly.

You may not like or accept these definitions but much of the world does work within them (pretty much) and most of the self proclaimed atheists in the RF work within them. To have meaningful discussion, it has been pointed out that it is helpful if everyone is working from the same definitions.

In that it is considered disrespectful for a person of one denomination or religion to define the beliefs of a person of another denomination or religion, it is equally disrespectful for you (a believer) to insist on defining those of us who say that we are atheists based on the fact that we do not believe in god(s).

A little give and take helps facilitate meaningful discussion.

[Fire Watch]

Address the post, dont attack the poster or make this personal.

[Mikko]

Address the post, dont attack the poster or make this personal.
That's very clear and easy to follow. Thank you, Fire Watch.

[merryAtheist]

Address the post, dont attack the poster or make this personal.

I quite agree. I have no idea who you are referring to, as I don't consider any of my posts to be a personal attack, and I don't see any other posts by nonbelievers that rise (or stoop) to that level.

[Harmonious]

That is for another topic. I know that you don't believe man's need for a redeemer. But I have love for and pray constantly for the Jewish people, my people. And because I once believed as you did. But you do believe in HaShem and that is better than hating Him as some on this site do.That's cool, I guess.

I do appreciate Jewish history. I understand that many who called themselves Christians committed atrocities against the Jewish people as well as many who did not believe in any God. Anyone who had done such and have not repented are surely in a devil's hell forever.Glad we agree on something.

So I understand your distrust for Christians.Who says I distrust Christians? I didn't say I did.

What I DID say is that I appreciate the ability for people to believe in different religions is valid and useful, even if it means that people believe in NO religion. (Or, for the people who decide that Christianity isn't, in fact, a religion, but a "relationship", that too.)

I said that I'm glad that I am not being forced to worship in someone else's fashion. In centuries gone by, that was most usually Christianity, true. In this century (and in other centuries), Islam is the one being forced on non-believers, by terrorists. I'm sure that is only one among many.

I am not out to convert you and am no threat to the Jewish Identity.I didn't say you were, although that is good to know.

Because I follow Rabbi Yeshua many in the Jewish community see me as a traitor.Among other things.
But they will not find one who loves and supports them more, save Adon-, of course than me.Good to know.

True it is more arrogance on their part especially when they cast aspersions on the God of Israel. But it will prove to be hubris after they have taken their last breath on this earth.No, actually. It isn't. It would be hubris for someone who believes in God to say that they are BETTER than God.

For someone who doesn't believe in God to not believe in God is just disbelief. God doesn't punish people for simply not believing. At least, not as part of MY belief system, anyway.

Again, no problem with debate and discussion but when they attack I will defend. No one is attacking people who believe, here. The OP is about people asking questions, learning, or even challenging. The rules of the RF state that it has to be done respectfully, but active disbelief isn't an attack. It is just not believing in God.

An atheist's lack of belief in God is no more an attack on God than my disbelief in Jesus is an attack on Jesus. (I've done enough of that to know the difference. Trust me.)

We have been so conditioned by them to be so politically correct that we will let them defacto slam our God. No one is slamming God.

So it is no surprise to me that when someone pushes back they cry foul. As they should. Atheists are routinely attacked for their lack of belief in God. It shouldn't be, but I've seen it. All kinds of people here have been attacked, and the Mods do their best to stop it.

All I remember is when I was a boy the Rabbi tried to drill in my head that most of Tanakh was more allegorical and that Talmud was revelation. He stressed new thought was better than old thought.*sigh*

I'm willing to bet that it wasn't an Orthodox Rabbi...

But that isn't the point, is it?

As for dealing with the God haters, I will share the opinion of King David. And btw I believe that story to be literal.

1Sa 17:26 And David spake to the men that stood by him, saying, What shall be done to the man that killeth this Philistine, and taketh away the reproach from Israel? for who [is] this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?Dude, no one here is killing Jews in the name of defaming God.

But I'm glad you believe this story is literal.

[Fire Watch]

and I don't see any other posts by nonbelievers that rise (or stoop) to that level.
Who singled them out? Did I address a poster or group of posters specifically? Did I name anyone?

[merryAtheist]

Who singled them out? Did I address a poster or group of posters specifically? Did I name anyone?

No. I'm a mind reader.

And I know what you are thinking right now and it is proctologically impossible (plus I have a sore knee).

[Gidon]

That's cool, I guess.

Glad we agree on something.

great minds think alike


Who says I distrust Christians? I didn't say I did.
you are right you didn't. It was my presumption on my part based on my own experience and my discussion with other Jews.


What I DID say is that I appreciate the ability for people to believe in different religions is valid and useful, even if it means that people believe in NO religion. (Or, for the people who decide that Christianity isn't, in fact, a religion, but a "relationship", that too.)

Can't disagree with that one.



I said that I'm glad that I am not being forced to worship in someone else's fashion. In centuries gone by, that was most usually Christianity, true. In this century (and in other centuries), Islam is the one being forced on non-believers, by terrorists. I'm sure that is only one among many.

I would agree on the islam part but I would include humanism as well.



I didn't say you were, although that is good to know.

Among other things.
Good to know.

No, actually. It isn't. It would be hubris for someone who believes in God to say that they are BETTER than God.

Agreed. But I know for a fact that some do believe they are better than Him.


For someone who doesn't believe in God to not believe in God is just disbelief. God doesn't punish people for simply not believing. At least, not as part of MY belief system, anyway.

Can we agree that people ARE accountable to Him for their actions?



No one is attacking people who believe, here. The OP is about people asking questions, learning, or even challenging. The rules of the RF state that it has to be done respectfully, but active disbelief isn't an attack. It is just not believing in God.

true


An atheist's lack of belief in God is no more an attack on God than my disbelief in Jesus is an attack on Jesus. (I've done enough of that to know the difference. Trust me.)

true again. I certainly do not hate an unbeliever.


No one is slamming God.

As they should. Atheists are routinely attacked for their lack of belief in God. It shouldn't be, but I've seen it. All kinds of people here have been attacked, and the Mods do their best to stop it.

I agree with you but even you have noticed that when they make a post referring to HaShem as a tyrant or immoral or something nasty like that.


*sigh*

I'm willing to bet that it wasn't an Orthodox Rabbi...

But that isn't the point, is it?

He was Conservative and there was another who was Reform. I was very inquisitive as a small child. There is no doubt that I probably exasperated him but Rabbi said to me, "Boychik why do you want to know these things? These are questions for the older students and the adults. You think too much. Stop reading for now and just be the child you are. There will be time for learning for you but not now."

It hurt me. I know that was not his intent. But it didn't stop the pain. I was embarrassed around him because my heart had the desire to learn. I had asthma and couldn't play outside a lot, especially in LA, so I was a little book worm. My parents had other issues so we stopped going. Funny because my ancestors were Orthodox Rabbis. One of the family names was Kohn.



Dude, no one here is killing Jews in the name of defaming God.

But I'm glad you believe this story is literal.

God is real. And he is always True.

[Harmonious]

great minds think alikeIt's a beautiful thing.

you are right you didn't. It was my presumption on my part based on my own experience and my discussion with other Jews. It happens. Friends?

Can't disagree with that one. Again, a beautiful thing.

I would agree on the islam part but I would include humanism as well.No one is threatening death upon rejection of humanism, as far as I can tell, but I did say that Islam was only one of many around the world that people are being forced to accept upon pain of death.

Agreed. But I know for a fact that some do believe they are better than Him. Well, yeah. I'm better than unicorns. I'm real. They aren't.

If you don't believe that God is real, it isn't hubris to believe you are better than God.

The problem comes when you believe that God is real, and then you still believe you are better than God.

Can we agree that people ARE accountable to Him for their actions?Of course. For actions, always.

But simply for beliefs? Not necessarily.

true

true again. I certainly do not hate an unbeliever. I love to agree so much. It makes me happy.

I agree with you but even you have noticed that when they make a post referring to HaShem as a tyrant or immoral or something nasty like that.It is an easy conclusion to come to if you only read the texts, or if you read cherry-picked quotes.

It is often those same quotes that I've seen some Christians use to try to explain why Jesus and his love are necessary.

Of course there is more to the story. But sometimes... hey. I've seen some Christians do worse when they try to explain why most commandments are "no longer necessary."

He was Conservative and there was another who was Reform.I knew it.
I was very inquisitive as a small child. There is no doubt that I probably exasperated him but Rabbi said to me, "Boychik why do you want to know these things? These are questions for the older students and the adults. You think too much. Stop reading for now and just be the child you are. There will be time for learning for you but not now." I HATE it when people turn off children's curiosity. It is one of the quickest ways to turn people off of whatever you are trying to teach them.

My mother's cousin Bert's family was religious. Bert's father died when Bert was 13, and he asked questions. The Rabbi (Orthodox, but Old World "children should be seen and not heard" variety) told him not to question God. The Rabbi was probably a good man, and even a learned man, but he had no bedside manner to speak of.

They grew up in Brooklyn, and Bert told his troubles to his friend, who was an Italian Catholic. The friend brought Bert to talk to his priest, who was much warmer, and much more personable, and patient to deal with the worries of a child.

It wasn't that Judaism didn't have the answers Bert looked for. It was that the Rabbi didn't bother trying to find them. The priest had no problem giving the answers.

Over time, Bert became an Episcopalian bishop. Because of complications involving Aliya (Bert and his family now lives in Israel), he had to decide which meant more to him: being Christian, or making Aliya. You see, people of all faiths can immigrate to Israel, but only Jews can make Aliya (which is immigration on the fast-track, due to Right of Return). Making Aliya was MORE important, and last I heard, Bert is again Jewish. His wife converted to Judaism, and Bert is a professor in Tel Aviv University.

But the whole mess * would never have happened if the Rabbi would have taken the time to lend a sympathetic ear to a teenager who was hurting, mourning, and in need of sympathy.

* For the record, conversion to being Episcopalian isn't a "mess," but the whole conversion, reconversion, trying to make everything fit thing IS the mess.

It hurt me. I know that was not his intent. But it didn't stop the pain. I was embarrassed around him because my heart had the desire to learn.I completely understand.

I had asthma and couldn't play outside a lot, especially in LA, so I was a little book worm. My parents had other issues so we stopped going. Funny because my ancestors were Orthodox Rabbis. One of the family names was Kohn.As I said, if someone Jewish (usually Orthodox, but not necessarily) would have offered answers at the right time... Your belief system might have turned out different than what it is today. Maybe.

Yours, unfortunately, isn't an uncommon story.

God is real. And he is always True.*nod*

[markd]

Really?
No God whatsoever, not by any name, be it intelligent designer, alien master etc???
No diety whatsoever?Nope.

[Values]

Nope.

Do you have a theory/belief on how life began on this planet?

[Sketch]

Really?
No God whatsoever, not by any name, be it intelligent designer, alien master etc???
No diety whatsoever?

As for me - I do not believe in any being that resides outside nature.

[Values]

As for me - I do not believe in any being that resides outside nature.

What does "inside nature" mean to you?

[Sketch]

What does "inside nature" mean to you?

inside the natural universe - I don't believe in anything that violates the laws of nature.

[Values]

inside the natural universe - I don't believe in anything that violates the laws of nature.

Are these "laws" as we know them or actual laws that are out there?
I mean, we say gravity is a natural law, yet we do not undertstand the pull of a black hole, will understanding that phenomonea change our perspective on what we now see as a law? Is a "law" definate or really just a place holder we have put in until we find more information about the universe?
I have found science to be great at investigation but lacking when it comes to knowing. We tend to believe ourselves too much and then up comes something that throws out our long held belief.
(please feel free to ask questions back, I do not want this to become a grilling session in any way)

[Sketch]

Are these "laws" as we know them or actual laws that are out there?
I mean, we say gravity is a natural law, yet we do not undertstand the pull of a black hole, will understanding that phenomonea change our perspective on what we now see as a law? Is a "law" definate or really just a place holder we have put in until we find more information about the universe?
I have found science to be great at investigation but lacking when it comes to knowing. We tend to believe ourselves too much and then up comes something that throws out our long held belief.
(please feel free to ask questions back, I do not want this to become a grilling session in any way)
there is more that we don't understand than we do, this will always be the case. All I am saying is that I don't believe in any beings that are super-natural (not contained in nature). I don't believe in a being that created "nature" for example.

as this pertains to gods - am I safe in assumeing that you do not believe in the pagan gods? If so, that might be a good basis for you to understand my disbelief in all the gods.

[Values]

there is more that we don't understand than we do, this will always be the case. All I am saying is that I don't believe in any beings that are super-natural (not contained in nature). I don't believe in a being that created "nature" for example.

as this pertains to gods - am I safe in assumeing that you do not believe in the pagan gods? If so, that might be a good basis for you to understand my disbelief in all the gods.

I also do not believe in all gods, save one. I do believe that the universe was created, to assume that it wasn't is too big a leap for me. I also believe that science will give us lots of answers but, by no means, all of them.

[Sketch]

I also do not believe in all gods, save one. I do believe that the universe was created, to assume that it wasn't is too big a leap for me. I also believe that science will give us lots of answers but, by no means, all of them.

was the god you believe in created? if not, then not everything needs a creator in order to exist. I see no reason to impose a creator.

[Values]

was the god you believe in created? if not, then not everything needs a creator in order to exist. I see no reason to impose a creator.

Just because you see no reason does not mean one isn't there.
If no creator then how did it all start?

[RayMan]

Just because you see no reason does not mean one isn't there.
If no creator then how did it all start?

We'll be discussing the last visible dog next thing you know.

And no, Koushi, I am not dyslexic.

[Sketch]

Just because you see no reason does not mean one isn't there.
If no creator then how did it all start?

"i don't know" is a much more useful answer than "god must have done it".

[captusa]

Just because you see no reason does not mean one isn't there.
If no creator then how did it all start?

If you can assume a creator existed to Create the world, why can't someone assume that the world was there forever ?
IOW Something had to start from nothing.
It could have been a God or it just as easily could have been the universe.

[Values]

"i don't know" is a much more useful answer than "god must have done it".

"I don't know" is a conveinient cop out.
It let's people dodge important questions that allows valid discussion.

[Koushi Shinigami]

"I don't know" is a conveinient cop out.
It let's people dodge important questions that allows valid discussion.

Nope. It's a starting point.

[Values]

If you can assume a creator existed to Create the world, why can't someone assume that the world was there forever ?
IOW Something had to start from nothing.
It could have been a God or it just as easily could have been the universe.

Why do you think I don't want others to have their own belief system?
I just like to discuss it with them.

[Harmonious]

"I don't know" is a conveinient cop out.
It let's people dodge important questions that allows valid discussion.
Nope. It is intellectually honest.

I would rather someone tell me that they honestly don't know the answer to a question than make up some random lie because it sounds like what I want to hear.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Nope. It is intellectually honest.

I would rather someone tell me that they honestly don't know the answer to a question than make up some random lie because it sounds like what I want to hear.

It's Buff's fault.

[RayMan]

If you can assume a creator existed to Create the world, why can't someone assume that the world was there forever ?
IOW Something had to start from nothing.
It could have been a God or it just as easily could have been the universe.

But don't you science guys discount the idea of the universe being around forever? Isn't the idea behind the Big Bang that it is what kick started the universe?

Disclaimer: You guys know I am pretty much innocent of any science so treat me gently here.

[Values]

Nope. It's a starting point.

I see it as the ending point, as in
How did you like the movie....I don't know. (end of discussion)
How were those fries.....I don't know. (end of discussion)
What are your thoughts on quantum pphysics....I don't know. (end of discussion)
How does your belief system explain the beginning of life...I don't know. (end of discussion)

How do you see it as the starting point?

[Values]

Nope. It is intellectually honest.

I would rather someone tell me that they honestly don't know the answer to a question than make up some random lie because it sounds like what I want to hear.

It is honest, it just isn't thought provoking, insightful or intellectually stimulating. All things people come here to get on this forum.

[RayMan]

Nope. It is intellectually honest.

I would rather someone tell me that they honestly don't know the answer to a question than make up some random lie because it sounds like what I want to hear.

Must you ALWAYS be so reasonable? :hug:

[terri910]

I see it as the ending point, as in
How did you like the movie....I don't know. (end of discussion)
How were those fries.....I don't know. (end of discussion)
What are your thoughts on quantum pphysics....I don't know. (end of discussion)
How does your belief system explain the beginning of life...I don't know. (end of discussion)

How do you see it as the starting point?
By realizing that factual knowledge is somewhat different than belief, conviction and opinion?

[terri910]

It is honest, it just isn't thought provoking, insightful or intellectually stimulating. All things people come here to get on this forum.
I'll take honesty, thanks.

[RayMan]

You can always follow up the "I don't know," with a "What if...?"

[Harmonious]

Must you ALWAYS be so reasonable? :hug:
I try.

:hug:

[Harmonious]

It's Buff's fault.

:shhh:

[Harmonious]

It is honest, it just isn't thought provoking, insightful or intellectually stimulating. All things people come here to get on this forum.
And sometimes the truth isn't entertaining. Does that make it any less truth?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I see it as the ending point, as in
How did you like the movie....I don't know. (end of discussion)
How were those fries.....I don't know. (end of discussion)
What are your thoughts on quantum pphysics....I don't know. (end of discussion)
How does your belief system explain the beginning of life...I don't know. (end of discussion)


You're talking to a teenager. Who cares what they think?


How do you see it as the starting point?

"Why did that rocket blow up on the lauchpad?" "I don't know, let's figure it out."

"What would happen if an F-4 Phantom crashes into a reinforced concrete wall?" "I don't know, set up an experiment and let's see."

[Values]

And sometimes the truth isn't entertaining. Does that make it any less truth?

If you don't know, you don't know.
Don't get me wrong I'll take truth, I will just go elsewhere for discussion on that subject.

[Values]

You're talking to a teenager. Who cares what they think?




"Why did that rocket blow up on the lauchpad?" "I don't know, let's figure it out."

"What would happen if an F-4 Phantom crashes into a reinforced concrete wall?" "I don't know, set up an experiment and let's see."

So lets try again....what is your thoughts on how life began........
(psssst....this is where you would say I don't know, let's talk about it)

[Koushi Shinigami]

So lets try again....what is your thoughts on how life began........
(psssst....this is where you would say I don't know, let's talk about it)

We've been talking about it.