Capitalism vs Socialism according to Winston Churchill (Updated)

[Maxstake]

Thank You Dee from The Patriotic Resistance for this Quote from Churchill. http://www.resistnet.com/

THIS IS REALLY A GREAT SHE SAID - HE SAID:
"We'll get to find out first-hand that Churchill was right when he said that" capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth & socialism is the equal distribution of poverty."

I would give that quote just a twist.

Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth that depends on your own initiative and hard work, while socialism is forced distribution of wealth resulting in the equal distributing of poverty that doesn't give a damn about your own initiate and hard work.

[jackson Mill]

It would great if you, and a majority of others on this forum, knew what socialism actually is.

[Alone In Liberalville]

Hi there, Jackson Mill

It's my turn this time - seriously - what is your definition of socialism. I'm not trying to be snide - I'm honestly interested in hearing your point of view. What do you feel it is?

Thanks!

[Maxstake]

It would great if you, and a majority of others on this forum, knew what socialism actually is.

What Socialists want you to think it is or what it really is? ? ?

[TheDave]

That quote is made all the more amusing because of the fact he lost the first election post WW2 to a socialist Labour Party candidate.

[Jari Juho]

jackson mill: socialism= devil in disguise.

Most socialist people believe that socialism will give us a better and more fair world. That the society takes care of the poor, free health care to everyone, helping the third world etc. They see rich people and thinks that they are rich because others are poor and think its more “fair” if we take money from the rich and give it to the poor, ´cos then will we get a better world…
But, they are all wrong. In a socialist country you never get a rich person in the first place, because there are no incitements to work and get rich. In a socialist country there is no money to “spread around” cos no one wants to work long days without getting any extra from it. In a socialist country you only get suspicious minds. To fulfill the socialist agenda, then all people have to be a homogeneous group where everybody thinks, believe, feel, say, do etc the same. To do this, you have to erase all individual personalities and you get brainwashed robots instead of people. Only way to turn a country to a socialist country is through the totalitarian darkness…. Socialism will always end with state control, concentration camps etc…. Like all collectivistic ideologies like Nazism, communism, fascism is socialism based on the evil Karl Marx….
Now when you have a socialist president, the downward spiral begins….

[Wilhelm Scream]

But, they are all wrong. In a socialist country you never get a rich person in the first place, because there are no incitements to work and get rich. In a socialist country there is no money to “spread around” cos no one wants to work long days without getting any extra from it. In a socialist country you only get suspicious minds. To fulfill the socialist agenda, then all people have to be a homogeneous group where everybody thinks, believe, feel, say, do etc the same. To do this, you have to erase all individual personalities and you get brainwashed robots instead of people. Only way to turn a country to a socialist country is through the totalitarian darkness…. Socialism will always end with state control, concentration camps etc….

I'm sorry, but I must disagree. The level of oppression in which you speak is extremely exaggerated. Rich people exist in socialist countries. Citizens of a socialist nation are not brainwashed robots. People still go to work in a socialist country. There are ZERO concentration camps in Sweden and England.

Have you ever been to a socialist country? Have you ever spoken with someone from a socialist country? They are no less lacking individual personality than you are.

[Autodidact]

Wilhelm, it is you who are wrong. FIrst, socialism is not an all or nothing proposition. It is easily introduced into an economy by degrees. Jari is also wrong in that there are rich people in socialist nations, but he is right in that one cannot become wealthy by one's own efforts. The rich in socialist nations are the connected people, and that club has closed membership.

I have met and spoken with people from socialist nations: Romanians and Iraqis come immediately to mind. The state does not have to formally own the means of production in order to have socialism. If it allows you to nominally own the means of production but confiscatorily taxes you, it effectively owns the means of production because it owns the output of production. Then it spends the money as it sees fit. Since a government never has enough money to give to everyone, it gives to those whom elected politicians favor. It is an old racket.

I'm new to the forum, so my post is not as tidy as more experienced members.

[rgpizza]

Thank You Dee from The Patriotic Resistance for this Quote from Churchill. http://www.resistnet.com/

THIS IS REALLY A GREAT SHE SAID - HE SAID:
"We'll get to find out first-hand that Churchill was right when he said that" capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth & socialism is the equal distribution of poverty."

I would give that quote just a twist.

Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth that depends on your own initiative and hard work, while socialism is forced distribution of wealth resulting in the equal distributing of poverty that doesn't give a damn about your own initiate and hard work.


Capitalism would be great if what you said was true but the problem with capitalism is the majority of people who are wealthy did not become so through their own initiative and hard work. They became ealthy because they were BORN INTO a middle class or above middle class famiy and were provided with the opportunities and chances to suceed. When they graduated highschool they were able to and expected to go onto college. A college that was PAID for by their parent's. asnd if by some chance some of the middle class kids did have to work to help pay for college it was part-time work. It is a whole different worl when you have to work summers and part time during school to help pay for college yet continue to live with your parents theough college. and use your parents car or have your car covered on your parent's insurance and have a phone thats covered under your families phone plan. Its so annoying when the few middle class kids who had to work part time to help pay for their education brag an say " I worked my way through school !" Maybe some did work through college BUT WHILE LIVING WITH THEIR PARENTS AND HAVING NO OTHER BILLS. It is not difficult if someone ha to work to help pay for college but it is nea impossible for a kid out of highschool to go onto a higher education when they have to pay for tuition, books, rent, electric, car insurance, phone, gas, food and clothing. Just the basic necesities on a 7 or 8 dollar job and someone right out of highschool is not going to be able to find a job that pays much more then that. This is why middle class families and above are able to accumalate wealth while poor families stay poor. Because poor families lack the minimum opportunites that need to be avaliable in order to suceed.

All these kids from upper class families that go off to college and complain about the proggressive tax system and make little qoutes reguarding capatilism being equal to hardwork are simply repeating what they have heard their parents say. They have no idea what hard work is because they are the ones getting a free ride. The majority are not paying for college or their car insurance or their phone bills, their parents are. They are against socalism yet they are living it. How can they complain about poor kids wanting to be able to go to college for free when they are going to college for free. Doesn't matter that their parents are the ons paying. It is still one adult paying for another adult. SO when 755 of these republicans went to a college that their parents paid for they were getting A FREE RIDE!

Everyone should have to work hard to succed but everyone should also be able to at least have a fair start in life. You take all of the kids who are away at a college being paid for by their parents and pull them out of that college and tell them okay
guys, from this day foward you are going to start your life over and without a dollar to your name you need to figure out how to get a job and pay for college, books, rent, car insurance, phone, electric, clothes and food because your parents will not be allowed to help you anymore. You will need to acive whatever you are going to acheive in life without any help from anybody and as of now figure out how to pay for all your living expenses, your college and make something out of yourself while working full-time at a minimum wage job. I gaurantee less then 5 percent of all these kids that were just stripped of all their opportunites will be able to make it on their own now that they no longer have any help from anyone.

Now lets take the hundreds of thousands of kids who had been living in the situation that we just put the middle class and above kids in. The situation where they have to pay everything for themselves and lets put them in college with all their neccessities provided for them and lets see how many succeed compared to the one's that now have to live without any help at all.

My whole point was it would be great if capatilism really was about hard work, but it's not. it's about being born into a family that is going to at the very least provide you with enough opportunites to have a fair chance to make something of yourself if you want to work for it. It's easy to feel as through capatilism is all about hard work when you were born into a familiy that is going to provide you with the opportunites needed to suceed if you do work hard.

On the other hand for the people born into poor families it is very hard to break the cycle. most families continue to be poor generation after generation because they lack the minimum opportunities to give their children that one needs in order to be given the chance to suceed through hard work.

Why shouldn't poor children have the opportunity to attend college for free? Wealthy children attend college for free. they don't pay for it their parents do.

Every child should have access to two things. Universal health care. It is so unfair that poor children born into poverty through no fault of their own are unable to receive yearly check ups and medical care because they lack health insurance. It's sick how so many children with cancer and other diseases have to live untrated and their lives end so young because they are without health insurance.

Everyone should be entitled to a college education if they want it so that everyone can at the very least get a fair start at life. a fair chance to be able to suceed. It is just to much for republicans to expect poor kids out of highschool to be able to pay for college and all their living expenses when they wouldn't expect their own kids to be able to do that.

[Maxstake]

Capitalism would be great if what you said was true but the problem with capitalism is the majority of people who are wealthy did not become so through their own initiative and hard work. They became ealthy because they were BORN INTO a middle class or above middle class famiy and were provided with the opportunities and chances to suceed. When they graduated highschool they were able to and expected to go onto college. A college that was PAID for by their parent's. asnd if by some chance some of the middle class kids did have to work to help pay for college it was part-time work. It is a whole different worl when you have to work summers and part time during school to help pay for college yet continue to live with your parents theough college. and use your parents car or have your car covered on your parent's insurance and have a phone thats covered under your families phone plan. Its so annoying when the few middle class kids who had to work part time to help pay for their education brag an say " I worked my way through school !" Maybe some did work through college BUT WHILE LIVING WITH THEIR PARENTS AND HAVING NO OTHER BILLS. It is not difficult if someone ha to work to help pay for college but it is nea impossible for a kid out of highschool to go onto a higher education when they have to pay for tuition, books, rent, electric, car insurance, phone, gas, food and clothing. Just the basic necesities on a 7 or 8 dollar job and someone right out of highschool is not going to be able to find a job that pays much more then that. This is why middle class families and above are able to accumalate wealth while poor families stay poor. Because poor families lack the minimum opportunites that need to be avaliable in order to suceed.

All these kids from upper class families that go off to college and complain about the proggressive tax system and make little qoutes reguarding capatilism being equal to hardwork are simply repeating what they have heard their parents say. They have no idea what hard work is because they are the ones getting a free ride. The majority are not paying for college or their car insurance or their phone bills, their parents are. They are against socalism yet they are living it. How can they complain about poor kids wanting to be able to go to college for free when they are going to college for free. Doesn't matter that their parents are the ons paying. It is still one adult paying for another adult. SO when 755 of these republicans went to a college that their parents paid for they were getting A FREE RIDE!

Everyone should have to work hard to succed but everyone should also be able to at least have a fair start in life. You take all of the kids who are away at a college being paid for by their parents and pull them out of that college and tell them okay
guys, from this day foward you are going to start your life over and without a dollar to your name you need to figure out how to get a job and pay for college, books, rent, car insurance, phone, electric, clothes and food because your parents will not be allowed to help you anymore. You will need to acive whatever you are going to acheive in life without any help from anybody and as of now figure out how to pay for all your living expenses, your college and make something out of yourself while working full-time at a minimum wage job. I gaurantee less then 5 percent of all these kids that were just stripped of all their opportunites will be able to make it on their own now that they no longer have any help from anyone.

Now lets take the hundreds of thousands of kids who had been living in the situation that we just put the middle class and above kids in. The situation where they have to pay everything for themselves and lets put them in college with all their neccessities provided for them and lets see how many succeed compared to the one's that now have to live without any help at all.

My whole point was it would be great if capatilism really was about hard work, but it's not. it's about being born into a family that is going to at the very least provide you with enough opportunites to have a fair chance to make something of yourself if you want to work for it. It's easy to feel as through capatilism is all about hard work when you were born into a familiy that is going to provide you with the opportunites needed to suceed if you do work hard.

On the other hand for the people born into poor families it is very hard to break the cycle. most families continue to be poor generation after generation because they lack the minimum opportunities to give their children that one needs in order to be given the chance to suceed through hard work.

Why shouldn't poor children have the opportunity to attend college for free? Wealthy children attend college for free. they don't pay for it their parents do.

Every child should have access to two things. Universal health care. It is so unfair that poor children born into poverty through no fault of their own are unable to receive yearly check ups and medical care because they lack health insurance. It's sick how so many children with cancer and other diseases have to live untrated and their lives end so young because they are without health insurance.

Everyone should be entitled to a college education if they want it so that everyone can at the very least get a fair start at life. a fair chance to be able to suceed. It is just to much for republicans to expect poor kids out of highschool to be able to pay for college and all their living expenses when they wouldn't expect their own kids to be able to do that.

Be advised that no matter what else has been tried the combination of Our Constitutional America and Capitaism have proven to be the best for the most people and those who are poor can climb to the highest levels, no other combination has ever been successful. If you think that Marxism or one of its Bastard Children Socialism or Communism is better, then why don't you give China or Russia, or even North Korea a try.

I believe that until you can come up with something better, where most of the people in the world would like to live, that you set back enjoy what you have until something better comes along.

[Wilhelm Scream]

Wilhelm, it is you who are wrong. FIrst, socialism is not an all or nothing proposition. It is easily introduced into an economy by degrees. Jari is also wrong in that there are rich people in socialist nations, but he is right in that one cannot become wealthy by one's own efforts. The rich in socialist nations are the connected people, and that club has closed membership.

I have met and spoken with people from socialist nations: Romanians and Iraqis come immediately to mind. The state does not have to formally own the means of production in order to have socialism. If it allows you to nominally own the means of production but confiscatorily taxes you, it effectively owns the means of production because it owns the output of production. Then it spends the money as it sees fit. Since a government never has enough money to give to everyone, it gives to those whom elected politicians favor. It is an old racket.

I'm new to the forum, so my post is not as tidy as more experienced members.

I never said Jari was wrong, only that I disagreed with him. I agree with you when you say socialism can be introduced by degrees and that there are varying degrees of socialist countries. I do have slight issue with your concept on how the state can own the means of production by vis-a-vi taxes. By that logic, as long as you pay taxes in any (every) nation, the state ultimately owns the means of production? Such is not the case in capitalism.

That said, welcome. I'm new to the forum to myself. My response to Jari might have sounded a little biting. I certainly didn't mean for it to come off like that.

[rgpizza]

Be advised that no matter what else has been tried the combination of Our Constitutional America and Capitaism have proven to be the best for the most people and those who are poor can climb to the highest levels, no other combination has ever been successful. If you think that Marxism or one of its Bastard Children Socialism or Communism is better, then why don't you give China or Russia, or even North Korea a try.

I believe that until you can come up with something better, where most of the people in the world would like to live, that you set back enjoy what you have until something better comes along.


I am obviously not going off to a third world country to give it a try and i'm not complaining where this country is headng. You are the one doing the complaining. And hello you alrealdy live in a contry that has socalized prisions, police force and fire department so if you don't like your socalized police force and socalized fire department then why aren't you giving another country a try? The only things I wouldn't mind adding to our country which is alrealdy partially socalized is universal college and universal healthcare and you can save your garbage reply about the long waits because i've spent the summer in canada every year since I was born and I know the waitin any emergency room in the united states is a hell of a lot longer then the wait in canada. If any of my friends or realitives in canada want to see their doctor they call and make an appointment for the next day or two just the same as here. Even when Ive had insurance whenever I have called to make an appointment to see a doctor her in the U.S I have always been given an appointment for a few days later or the following week and the wait is no longer in canada. If you break your arm here you in fact will probablly have to wait longer in the emergency room here then you do in canada.

I like Canada and I like living here and I am happy where our country is heading however it sounds like your not.

[Jari Juho]

Have you ever been to a socialist country? Have you ever spoken with someone from a socialist country?

Yes, i live in sweden... thats the reason for my bad english ;)

[Jari Juho]

The rich in socialist nations are the connected people, and that club has closed membership.
.
Yes, you are right... but in sweden, you do also have a opportunity to become rich by winning in a lottery or gambling.

We do have people who are "more equal" than others (like in all socialist countries).
I think there is no good in socialism. Its pure evil in disguise. The socialist usually has good intentions “Save the children” etc, but it always end in more regulations, laws, bigger government, more state control etc.
Sweden was very business friendly in 1870 with few regulations, strong ownership & entrepreneurship etc and Sweden went from one of the world´s poorest countries to one of the richest, but the socialism came slowly in disguise of “free health care”, “free education, “free this and that” and the marginal tax rate went up to MORE than 100% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomperipossa_in_Monismania ) and Sweden now lose positions on the “richest country” ranking for every year.
In early 80´s there were plans to nationalize all industries in Sweden through “lontagarfonder”, but that was stopped. Since the collapse of the U.S.S.R (and the death of olof palme) has Sweden slowly abandon “the socialist dream”, but we still have high grade of socialism in this country.

Left-wing people usually point Sweden as the socialist dream-country and point on all statistics about doctors/capita, high welfare-system etc… But, they miss the most important thing. The accesses to health care, welfare-system etc are a long labyrinth with lots of pitfalls. You’re in the hands of bureaucrats who can give you or deny you access to the services. And ´cos of the expensive bureaucracy it’s hard to get health care before it’s too late (e.g. cancer has already spread to the rest of the body).
This is how the “free health care” works in Sweden.
In the beginning of the year a hospital does a budget for example for 3000 knee operations. Lets say that we get a cold winter and lots of people hurt their knee cos slipping on the ice. The 3001 th person who needs a knee operation don’t get a operation and have to wait in a queue for the next year’s budget.
Swedish hospitals got the latest technology, but the machines stand still 98% of the time ´cos the doctors had to do paper work etc in the bureaucratic health care system most of their working day, so they don’t have time to use the machines, help people etc.
A low-income earner in Sweden pays the double (by taxes) than corresponding health-care insurance cost in U.K. But, this is not shown in the statistics... It doesn’t matter if we have many doctors/capita etc if we don’t get access to them.
More about Sweden. During the 80´s we had two TV channels (of course state controlled) with lots of disguised leftish propaganda. When a no-government-controlled TV channel started to broadcast through satellite, there were voices in the (social democratic) parliament who wanted to shot down the not state controlled tv-satellite.
When it was time for digital-broadcast of tv signals, the social democratic party tried again to get control of the TV broadcast by only allow broadcast-licenses to “accepted TV-channels” (Bye bye Foxnews). This is not about North-korea. Its about Sweden.
Funny papers were full of socialist propaganda. This is propaganda for high taxes (and between the lines, its very anti-USA) http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-2yKGS_w04s/R0H9OcWt0rI/AAAAAAAAALM/TJx2BR7grUA/s320/bamse_skatt_01.jpg
And schools are still full of socialist propaganda (as in every country?)

RONALD REAGAN SPEAKS OUT AGAINST SOCIALIZED MEDICINE & SOCIALISM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiyfG4WMxA0


Stockholm has higher rate (%) of homeless people than New York.
But one thing is maybe better. Its very clean in Stockholm. As in all socialist countries the front is very important in Sweden. All the homeless children in Stockholm don’t officially exist (like in the U.S.S.R), but you can see them in the middle of the night. They are sleeping at the subway, night bus or they follow an older man who gives them a sleeping place in exchange for some “services”.

Socialism is nothing more than an evil dream…..

[greenrebel6]

Capitalism would be great if what you said was true but the problem with capitalism is the majority of people who are wealthy did not become so through their own initiative and hard work. They became ealthy because they were BORN INTO a middle class or above middle class famiy and were provided with the opportunities and chances to suceed. When they graduated highschool they were able to and expected to go onto college. A college that was PAID for by their parent's. asnd if by some chance some of the middle class kids did have to work to help pay for college it was part-time work. It is a whole different worl when you have to work summers and part time during school to help pay for college yet continue to live with your parents theough college. and use your parents car or have your car covered on your parent's insurance and have a phone thats covered under your families phone plan. Its so annoying when the few middle class kids who had to work part time to help pay for their education brag an say " I worked my way through school !" Maybe some did work through college BUT WHILE LIVING WITH THEIR PARENTS AND HAVING NO OTHER BILLS. It is not difficult if someone ha to work to help pay for college but it is nea impossible for a kid out of highschool to go onto a higher education when they have to pay for tuition, books, rent, electric, car insurance, phone, gas, food and clothing. Just the basic necesities on a 7 or 8 dollar job and someone right out of highschool is not going to be able to find a job that pays much more then that. This is why middle class families and above are able to accumalate wealth while poor families stay poor. Because poor families lack the minimum opportunites that need to be avaliable in order to suceed.

All these kids from upper class families that go off to college and complain about the proggressive tax system and make little qoutes reguarding capatilism being equal to hardwork are simply repeating what they have heard their parents say. They have no idea what hard work is because they are the ones getting a free ride. The majority are not paying for college or their car insurance or their phone bills, their parents are. They are against socalism yet they are living it. How can they complain about poor kids wanting to be able to go to college for free when they are going to college for free. Doesn't matter that their parents are the ons paying. It is still one adult paying for another adult. SO when 755 of these republicans went to a college that their parents paid for they were getting A FREE RIDE!

Everyone should have to work hard to succed but everyone should also be able to at least have a fair start in life. You take all of the kids who are away at a college being paid for by their parents and pull them out of that college and tell them okay
guys, from this day foward you are going to start your life over and without a dollar to your name you need to figure out how to get a job and pay for college, books, rent, car insurance, phone, electric, clothes and food because your parents will not be allowed to help you anymore. You will need to acive whatever you are going to acheive in life without any help from anybody and as of now figure out how to pay for all your living expenses, your college and make something out of yourself while working full-time at a minimum wage job. I gaurantee less then 5 percent of all these kids that were just stripped of all their opportunites will be able to make it on their own now that they no longer have any help from anyone.

Now lets take the hundreds of thousands of kids who had been living in the situation that we just put the middle class and above kids in. The situation where they have to pay everything for themselves and lets put them in college with all their neccessities provided for them and lets see how many succeed compared to the one's that now have to live without any help at all.

My whole point was it would be great if capatilism really was about hard work, but it's not. it's about being born into a family that is going to at the very least provide you with enough opportunites to have a fair chance to make something of yourself if you want to work for it. It's easy to feel as through capatilism is all about hard work when you were born into a familiy that is going to provide you with the opportunites needed to suceed if you do work hard.

On the other hand for the people born into poor families it is very hard to break the cycle. most families continue to be poor generation after generation because they lack the minimum opportunities to give their children that one needs in order to be given the chance to suceed through hard work.

Why shouldn't poor children have the opportunity to attend college for free? Wealthy children attend college for free. they don't pay for it their parents do.

Every child should have access to two things. Universal health care. It is so unfair that poor children born into poverty through no fault of their own are unable to receive yearly check ups and medical care because they lack health insurance. It's sick how so many children with cancer and other diseases have to live untrated and their lives end so young because they are without health insurance.

Everyone should be entitled to a college education if they want it so that everyone can at the very least get a fair start at life. a fair chance to be able to suceed. It is just to much for republicans to expect poor kids out of highschool to be able to pay for college and all their living expenses when they wouldn't expect their own kids to be able to do that.

Wow . . . I am at a loss of words. I cannot believe that Capitalism vs. Socialism is even an argument. First, Socialism has been tried and has failed countless times in history because of on determining factor.. " I am better than you so why are we treated as equals?" Plain and simple. Why would you want the equal distribution of poverty? Explain why? Do you want a life full of ambition-less goals? Do you want your Brain Surgeons making the same amount of money as your local ice cream man? Ever heard of the USSR? Go read about it and tell me if you would have liked to live there. Heres a link to the TRUE definition of Socialism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist.

You said that the majority of the wealthy did not become wealthy through there own accord. That's factually inaccurate as well as statistically in accurate. In fact roughly 90% of the Millionaires in this country are first generation millionaires( meaning they did it themselves and did not inherit the money) and of the those 90% roughly 60% DO NOT EVEN HAVE COLLEGE EDUCATIONS!!!! That means everything you said is completely and totally WRONG!

It seems to me you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You probably don't even have kids. Then entire point is that the parents made the conscience decision to help there child get through college in an effort to provide them with the best possible chance at starting a good life. There is a distinct difference in me saying " I really want my son to go to a good college and become the best at what ever it is he becomes. In fact I am willing to sacrifice all for this too happen." and me saying " Wow it is my fiscal responsibility to help other people whom i do not know gain an education befitting there American citizenship. I have no relationship or responsibility to this person other than they were born to poor parents in the country i happen to inhabit. Everyone deserves a free ride." Here is the problem with your statement. CHOICE! You are not giving people a choice. There are plenty of ways for people to break the cycle. Immigrants come from China and Cuba all the time and become successful here without having an education handed to them. They come here for the opportunity to follow there dreams. And so what if there dreams happen to be paying their kids way through college. That's not Socialism ... its called FAMILY and you obviously do not have anything closely resembling a family or else you would understand that. Plain and simple its choice! I chose to help my family in any way i can because I want tooooo!!! Do you get it yet? Or do i need to keep going? CHOICE! FREEDOM! OPPORTUNITY! Those are the things this country will guarantee you! Opportunity to finish as far ahead in life as you are willing to take ur self. Not the chance to share poverty with everyone else.

What you are saying is that just because someone was born poor they dont have a fair chance? Thats entirely 100% in accurate and TOTALLY FALSE!!! If someone doesnt want to be poor anymore they simply need put forth effort. Thomas Paine ( one of our founding fathers. He wrote "Common Sense".) was but a poor immigrant and he went on to become one of the most influential writers of his time. And your telling me he was gimped from the get go? NO! He had the desire to improve the world and did this through his amazing penmanship. His ideas live on today... Maybe you should try educating yourself on the benefits of capitalism vs. the benefits of socialism and once you see how empty the socialism benefits are youll wake up and rethink your position. Or maybe youll just have a kid and realize how pathetically dumb what you said really is. Now don't take it personal. But that point of view is dumb. The good news is that its CURABLE!!!! I had the basic same belief not to long ago. But upon further education myself through voracious reading of books and forums and lots of talk radio shows I have come to realize how amazing capitalism is. It is the reason for this nations limitless wealth and ability to help the rest of the world. And youd sacrifice all that just because you want the same size piece of cake as me. Well... the good news ... you have the opportunity to get a bigger piece...

[Maxstake]

I am obviously not going off to a third world country to give it a try and i'm not complaining where this country is headng. You are the one doing the complaining. And hello you alrealdy live in a contry that has socalized prisions, police force and fire department so if you don't like your socalized police force and socalized fire department then why aren't you giving another country a try? The only things I wouldn't mind adding to our country which is alrealdy partially socalized is universal college and universal healthcare and you can save your garbage reply about the long waits because i've spent the summer in canada every year since I was born and I know the waitin any emergency room in the united states is a hell of a lot longer then the wait in canada. If any of my friends or realitives in canada want to see their doctor they call and make an appointment for the next day or two just the same as here. Even when Ive had insurance whenever I have called to make an appointment to see a doctor her in the U.S I have always been given an appointment for a few days later or the following week and the wait is no longer in canada. If you break your arm here you in fact will probablly have to wait longer in the emergency room here then you do in canada.

I like Canada and I like living here and I am happy where our country is heading however it sounds like your not.

So go stay in Canad, don't come here for medical care that is rationed for the elderly in Canada go and enjoy your world of Socialism or what ever it is, but I'll stay here, Thankk You and fight for the Constitutional America created by our founders and if I can eliminate the stupidity of Marxism and its bastard children Socialism and Communism that infest our country today. Let me know how it feels when Homeland Security or Obma's Brown Shirts come knocking at you door because you said or did that doesn't conform to the party line.

[rgpizza]

So go stay in Canad, don't come here for medical care that is rationed for the elderly in Canada go and enjoy your world of Socialism or what ever it is, but I'll stay here, Thankk You and fight for the Constitutional America created by our founders and if I can eliminate the stupidity of Marxism and its bastard children Socialism and Communism that infest our country today. Let me know how it feels when Homeland Security or Obma's Brown Shirts come knocking at you door because you said or did that doesn't conform to the party line.


Hello can you read?? I said like Canada and I live living here. Just because I advocate to add a program does not mean I shoukld move. You have socalized police department. You live with socalized public schools, fire dept, military ect. Americal is a mix of socalized and privatized services. I like out president, I like a majority of his plans. You are the one who does not like out president. You are the one stating someone is going to come knock on people doors which is crazy. Why don't you leave if you don't like out president? I'm staying and will continue to advocate for ehat is right and most likley Obama will remain in control for the next eight years. Hooray. If your going to mock your leader who is the most powerful man in the free world you need to get the heck out.

You are everything that is wrong with this country

[rgpizza]

Wow . . . I am at a loss of words. I cannot believe that Capitalism vs. Socialism is even an argument. First, Socialism has been tried and has failed countless times in history because of on determining factor.. " I am better than you so why are we treated as equals?" Plain and simple. Why would you want the equal distribution of poverty? Explain why? Do you want a life full of ambition-less goals? Do you want your Brain Surgeons making the same amount of money as your local ice cream man? Ever heard of the USSR? Go read about it and tell me if you would have liked to live there. Heres a link to the TRUE definition of Socialism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist.

You said that the majority of the wealthy did not become wealthy through there own accord. That's factually inaccurate as well as statistically in accurate. In fact roughly 90% of the Millionaires in this country are first generation millionaires( meaning they did it themselves and did not inherit the money) and of the those 90% roughly 60% DO NOT EVEN HAVE COLLEGE EDUCATIONS!!!! That means everything you said is completely and totally WRONG!

It seems to me you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You probably don't even have kids. Then entire point is that the parents made the conscience decision to help there child get through college in an effort to provide them with the best possible chance at starting a good life. There is a distinct difference in me saying " I really want my son to go to a good college and become the best at what ever it is he becomes. In fact I am willing to sacrifice all for this too happen." and me saying " Wow it is my fiscal responsibility to help other people whom i do not know gain an education befitting there American citizenship. I have no relationship or responsibility to this person other than they were born to poor parents in the country i happen to inhabit. Everyone deserves a free ride." Here is the problem with your statement. CHOICE! You are not giving people a choice. There are plenty of ways for people to break the cycle. Immigrants come from China and Cuba all the time and become successful here without having an education handed to them. They come here for the opportunity to follow there dreams. And so what if there dreams happen to be paying their kids way through college. That's not Socialism ... its called FAMILY and you obviously do not have anything closely resembling a family or else you would understand that. Plain and simple its choice! I chose to help my family in any way i can because I want tooooo!!! Do you get it yet? Or do i need to keep going? CHOICE! FREEDOM! OPPORTUNITY! Those are the things this country will guarantee you! Opportunity to finish as far ahead in life as you are willing to take ur self. Not the chance to share poverty with everyone else.

What you are saying is that just because someone was born poor they dont have a fair chance? Thats entirely 100% in accurate and TOTALLY FALSE!!! If someone doesnt want to be poor anymore they simply need put forth effort. Thomas Paine ( one of our founding fathers. He wrote "Common Sense".) was but a poor immigrant and he went on to become one of the most influential writers of his time. And your telling me he was gimped from the get go? NO! He had the desire to improve the world and did this through his amazing penmanship. His ideas live on today... Maybe you should try educating yourself on the benefits of capitalism vs. the benefits of socialism and once you see how empty the socialism benefits are youll wake up and rethink your position. Or maybe youll just have a kid and realize how pathetically dumb what you said really is. Now don't take it personal. But that point of view is dumb. The good news is that its CURABLE!!!! I had the basic same belief not to long ago. But upon further education myself through voracious reading of books and forums and lots of talk radio shows I have come to realize how amazing capitalism is. It is the reason for this nations limitless wealth and ability to help the rest of the world. And youd sacrifice all that just because you want the same size piece of cake as me. Well... the good news ... you have the opportunity to get a bigger piece...


First of all democrats do not advocate socalism, they advocate equal opportunity.
You saying that children born into poor famiy's have an equal chance to become wealthy IS COMPLETLEY FALSE!!
If that was true then the majority of peope who were poor would not keep repeating the cycle in their family generation after generation. Test scores in poor neighborhoods would not be so low and drop out rates so high compared to midle class families.
And what I said was 99 percent of the people who bacame wealthy were born into middle class familes and above so they at the very least had the minimum basic needs met and until someones basic needs are met they are unable to focus on being succesful. SO don't take it personal but your point of view is amazingly stupid and idiotic to even think that someone born into a poor family has even a qauter of the chance to become sussful as someone born into middle class and above does.
It is apparent in schools and statistics everywhere otherwise please explain why the drp out rate in poor neighborhoods is so high and the percentage for those who go on to college so low.

The founding fathers also thought women shouldnt vote or own property and neither should black people. They did not have everything right, if they did their would not be amedments. 99.9 percent of the senate, the house and people in politics are wealthy.

Also if it were so easy for a poor kid to grow up to become succesful, the gap between rich and poor would not have grown so much and the middle class would not of shrank so much.
It becomes harder and harder as the dollar gains less and less value year after year. 19 1970 the dollar was worth enough that a man with a wife and a child could work a minimum wage job , be the sole earner and still keep his family above the poverty line. In the present day someone making minimum wage can anot even afford a apartment without a roomate. Most things should be privatized but their are some things that shoul;d be not like education and healthcare. If privatized healthcare was the best in the world then the US would not be ranked 37th in healthcare treatment and the french would not be ranked number 1 in treatment. As far as education goes, all of europe have children at a much higher educational level then ours. The us has one of the worst public educational systems in the world which is why anybody with a little extra money puts their kids in private schoolls. For you to even hint that a public school in a poor neighbood when compared to a public school in an wealthy neighborhood is anwhere near equivlent to the latter is just plain ignorant

[rgpizza]

So go stay in Canad, don't come here for medical care that is rationed for the elderly in Canada go and enjoy your world of Socialism or what ever it is, but I'll stay here, Thankk You and fight for the Constitutional America created by our founders and if I can eliminate the stupidity of Marxism and its bastard children Socialism and Communism that infest our country today. Let me know how it feels when Homeland Security or Obma's Brown Shirts come knocking at you door because you said or did that doesn't conform to the party line.


Capitalism is the private ownership of capital goods with the free market being the primary determinant of production, prices, distribution.

Socialism is the collective or governmental ownership of capital goods with the government being the primary determinant of production, prices, distribution.

Democratics are not intrested in regulating the free market anyway so all this socalism talk is pointless. Democratics are intrested in giving equal opportunity to everyone which means spending tax dollars on a better public education system instead of pointless wars. Or even if it is not a single payer system , finding ways to provide health insurance to everyone. Thousands of children die each year because they have no health insurance through no fault of their own.

But ince again, the republicans only care about children before they are born.

[greenrebel6]

The point is ... the people below the poverty line are no more worse off than an immigrant who comes to this country. No education. No money. The difference is the drive to succeed and become something and have something. The people in this country lack desire and motivation and frankly that is not the middle classes fault. That is their own fault. As for socialized enterprises such as the Police and the Fire Department well they are Civil servants. They risk there lives in order to main peace and rescue lives. It is no different than having a military. It falls under protection. Which is outlined in the constitution. Protecting the citizenry is one of the FEW things the government should actually be doing. Schooling and health care are not there concern. Free market solutions are a much better route. I don't think you understand but, Capitalism has about 2000 years worth of philosophers standing behind it saying its the best route. Some of the greatest minds in the history of the world have said Capitalism is the only way. But your right ... and the brightest men who ever lived are totally wrong.

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production) and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism) method of compensation.

Capitalism is an economic system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_system) in which wealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth), and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_property) and controlled rather than state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State) owned and controlled.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-1) Through capitalism, the land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_%28economics%29), labor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_%28economics%29), and capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%28economics%29) are owned, operated, and traded by private individuals either singly or jointly,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-Wood2002-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-3) and investments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment), distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_%28business%29), income (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income), production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production,_costs,_and_pricing), pricing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing) and supply (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand) of goods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods), commodities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodities) and services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_%28economics%29) are determined by voluntary private decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy) in a market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-Bacher-5) A distinguishing feature of capitalism is that each person owns his or her own labor and therefore is allowed to sell the use of it to employers.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-Wood2002-2)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-altvater1993-6) In a "capitalist state", private rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights) and property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property) relations are protected by the rule of law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law) of a limited regulatory framework (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_government).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-lane2002-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-pejovich1990-8) In the modern capitalist state, legislative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislature) action is confined to defining and enforcing the basic rules of the market,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-lane2002-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-pejovich1990-8) though the state may provide some public goods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_goods) and infrastructure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure).

Those are true definitions. Capitalism+Democracy= Freedom to purse happiness.


And what do u mean the Democrats have no interest in controlling the markets? Do you not keep up with the news? 50 banks just tried to give back the Stimulus money because they did not need it now. The government told them no. Hmmm i wonder why? Maybe its because the company is controlled by the government as long as they have received that money? And what about forcing Chrysler to merge with Fiat? Or forcing the CEO of GM to resign? That seems a little bit like regulation ... removing CEO's, forced mergers, and not letting companies return money they no longer need. I think your blind. And quite frankly you must be stupid. Why the hell else do you think they are doing it?


Plain and simple . . . The more you ask from your government, the more power you give to them. And i enjoy the people having the power... not the crooked politicians.

[PyramidBuilder]

It's pretty fair to acknowledge that those with money and power pass that onto their children, and people with few opportunities will not be able to pass those onto their children. That's the fundamental assumption of Marxism (and Marx was right about much of the problems of capitalism), though I don't think widespread government regulation and ownership will solve this problem, but just put a different face on the same corruption (this time with the full power of the police and military behind it).

Capitalism is probably the worst financial system out there, except for all of the other ones. We live in an imperfect world but I'm not comfortable letting a central authority control everything, no matter how unfair even the best system we have is.

[IndyBec]

My parents had neither power nor wealth. 7 out of 8 of their children have done exceptionally well, either economically or academically or both. (The 8th is under 30 and in school while working and raising 2 babies on her own.)

We're not a perfect family, except my parents are thinkers and planners, and hard workers.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not just academics and book intelligence that makes millionaires or successful employees. Most of it is drive. Drive and dilligence, thoughtfully done, will yield results long term.

[PyramidBuilder]

My parents had neither power nor wealth. 7 out of 8 of their children have done exceptionally well, either economically or academically or both. (The 8th is under 30 and in school while working and raising 2 babies on her own.)

We're not a perfect family, except my parents are thinkers and planners, and hard workers.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not just academics and book intelligence that makes millionaires or successful employees. Most of it is drive. Drive and dilligence, thoughtfully done, will yield results long term.

The potential definitely exists for somebody to change social classes over their lifetime, though the data suggests that most people (still "most" meaning 65% not 95%) stay in the same social class they were born into.

But much of that is cultural. Your family's experience is great (and not necessarily uncommon). Class is internal more than external - my dad's a postal clerk but he taught me about world religions, philosophy and logic at an early age. We budgeted well enough that we were never poor, but all of us are going to college and doing pretty well. My sister in particular could probably buy and sell our house six or seven times already ;).

[LSBeene]

I'm sorry, but I must disagree. The level of oppression in which you speak is extremely exaggerated. Rich people exist in socialist countries. Citizens of a socialist nation are not brainwashed robots. People still go to work in a socialist country. There are ZERO concentration camps in Sweden and England.

Have you ever been to a socialist country? Have you ever spoken with someone from a socialist country? They are no less lacking individual personality than you are.

You have a point, but you also lost a lot of ground.

They are not lacking personality, but personal wealth.

There are no concentration camps, but wards filled with older folks waiting endlessly for rationed healthcare.

They cannot defend themselves because they were made dependant upon the gov't when the guns were taken away.

Few have a way to pay for private schools, and the gov't drains what money the poorer ones do have when they try to home school with court costs.

In both Great Britain and Sweden (did you REALLY use Sweden!?) the PC campaign against men is full force - Sherrie Blair actually helped free and PINNED A MEDAL on a woman who burned her husband to death (despite evidence of HER friends saying she planned to use the "abuse excuse") and the Swedish feminist party helped enact a law that says that 1/2 of ALL CORPORTATE BOARDS MUST be female.

Did you actually use SWEDEN!?

In both countries they have so much gov't control in the private lives of their citizens, and force PCism down their throats.

Wait, ... oh, sorry, you were kidding ... using ridiculous examples to set me up to point out how those ideas you were espousing were BAD.

Oh, snap, thanks for the props.

[LSBeene]

Why shouldn't poor children have the opportunity to attend college for free? Wealthy children attend college for free. they don't pay for it their parents do.

No, it was not free ... their parents paid for it. See, that's the problem with some people. They see me driving a car, and maybe my dad bought it for me, or maybe my company got it for me and they think -

HEY! Why can't I have gov't make a law so I can have a car at work or while I am a teen.

I mean, a car means opportunity and freedom, and chances in life.

And, oh yea, since I can't afford the car, and since insurance is mandatory, that should be free too.

Oh, and since THAT's free, I'll need gas, and an extended warrenty on this car I can't afford - I mean, who can put a price on diginity or opportunity.

You mean .... like THAT line of reasoning?

Every child should have access to two things. Universal health care. It is so unfair that poor children born into poverty through no fault of their own are unable to receive yearly check ups and medical care because they lack health insurance. It's sick how so many children with cancer and other diseases have to live untrated and their lives end so young because they are without health insurance.

Oh, that's so compassionate. I mean, you mean ALL children - regardless of them being legal or illegal right? And regardless if their parents brought them here BECAUSE they knew they'd get "free" health care for the kid.

I mean, just because one less American kid won't live due to a budget blow out, that's no reason to deny an illegal kid ... right. That's downright cruel. I mean, if you want to play God, then go ahead, I'll send the parents of the kid who didn't get treatment to YOUR house.

Oh, and how about we call people children until they're 21, I mean, how about that? SUUUURE, that's fair, because while they're getting that "free education" (anyone ever hear of a college LOAN!?) they can't afford health care.

Oh, and since their grandmother is the one with the house, can't we get HER on "free health care" too?

Expansion by increment towards systems already proven (in Sweden, England, Germany, & Canada NOT TO FREAKING WORK!!) is not the answer.

Everyone should be entitled to a college education if they want it so that everyone can at the very least get a fair start at life. a fair chance to be able to suceed. It is just to much for republicans to expect poor kids out of highschool to be able to pay for college and all their living expenses when they wouldn't expect their own kids to be able to do that.


Look dude, it's called a student loan. Hey, if you want to make those more applicable, I'm all for it - but only for American citizens so we can make sure it's paid back, and not to someone who will skip the country and leave me with the bill. Sorry, YOUR compassion can come out of YOUR wallet. I just paid off my last student load (from the 90's no less) and don't want to pay for someone elses. But feel free.

Your ideas are all warm and fuzzy, but will come out of the barrel of a gun if gov't forces us to do it. That's not freedom, not to me.

[LSBeene]

Thousands of children die each year because they have no health insurance through no fault of their own.

But ince again, the republicans only care about children before they are born.

LOLOLOL .... yea, wait, I'm still laughing.

Liberals, with your wonderful "great society" ideas and "new new deal" want to create a wondful concept we've already tried called Intergenerational Welfare.

Oh, that "war on poverty" sure was a great idea - discouraging savings, intergenerational entitlements without end that sap the work ethic, and disincentives to make more, get married, or get off the system.

Is THAT the compassion you're crowing?

As to us only caring for children before they're born - at least we freaking DO care if they are killed before they are born. Your inference implies you do not.

It was liberals who wanted abortion legal - and 45 million children later you still think it's a great idea.

And then you help invent "safe haven laws" wherein a mother can drop off her child no questions asked to be a ward of the state.

You all hated the traditional family, did all that you could to destroy it, and then somehow want us to fix it, or blame us for this mess.

Nice try, sell it down the street.

How about, a stable 2 parent family where if either parent decides to "find themselves" or "wants a change" and leaves there is no "no fault divorce" - the one who leaves (75% of all divorces are initiated by women due to the feminist leaning family courts) pays for the upkeep.

It's called accountability - we sure call on it from fathers, lets concentrate on the womb carriers too.

-----------------------------------

But, back on point - universal health care has been tried. IT DOES NOT FREAKING WORK.

How hard does the clue-by-four have to hit you before you get that?

[LSBeene]

First of all democrats do not advocate socalism, they advocate equal opportunity.
You saying that children born into poor famiy's have an equal chance to become wealthy IS COMPLETLEY FALSE!!
If that was true then the majority of peope who were poor would not keep repeating the cycle in their family generation after generation. Test scores in poor neighborhoods would not be so low and drop out rates so high compared to midle class families.
And what I said was 99 percent of the people who bacame wealthy were born into middle class familes and above so they at the very least had the minimum basic needs met and until someones basic needs are met they are unable to focus on being succesful.


Wow, this guy can't learn.

I'll go slow - stomp twice if I go too fast:

1) Liberals do not believe in equality of opportunity - they beleive in equality of OUTCOME.

2) You yourself whine and moan that "rich" (read successful) people often come from the middle class. Well, if you are poor and work your ass off, you can become middle class. You may not be rich, but your kids might be.

And no one owes you a lottery chance to be rich. Get over it.

3) Want to end the cycle of poverty? Stop funding it with welfare that teaches people that they can get something for free. Free housing, free money, free healthcare, etc.

It's not free, and I am not here on this earth to fund YOUR idealism. Go and become rich, start a little commune, give your money away for "free" housing, healthcare, and food, and watch how your commune gets bigger and few people leave. In fact, they'll teach their kids to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Micro of what you want to do - YOU try it first, let me know how it works out.

In short sir, go conduct your social theory with someone else money until you can show how it has WORKED anywhere else in the world.

Man, this guy is completely unable to LEARN.