The Feeling of "Presence"...

[Chuangtzu]

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining the physiological and chemical foundations of the experience of "Presence"?

Not assuming (at this point) either the existence of God(s), or nonexistence. Not assuming immanence, transcendence, or non-transcendental reality.

Only the actual chemistry of the feeling.

[Harmonious]

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining the physiological and chemical foundations of the experience of "Presence"?

Not assuming (at this point) either the existence of God(s), or nonexistence. Not assuming immanence, transcendence, or non-transcendental reality.

Only the actual chemistry of the feeling.I would suggest that there IS no chemical explanation. But then again, I also have no inclination to assume that there is a chemical reaction that explains why many people see something that is often described as "an angel of death" or any number of things like that.

I don't have a biological explanation for such things. But people see such things.

[Meriweather]

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining the physiological and chemical foundations of the experience of "Presence"?

Not assuming (at this point) either the existence of God(s), or nonexistence. Not assuming immanence, transcendence, or non-transcendental reality.

Only the actual chemistry of the feeling.

The feeling is the same as having someone stand in your presence. The only difference is that the being present is not a physical being but a spiritual one.

Just like someone can walk into your presence when you are alert or sleepy, when you are prepared for them, or when you are not, the same is true for spiritual presence. In other words, specific criteria for the presence does not need to be met.

[ROBERTENEAL]

I wish that I could explain. I don't have the vocabulary to explain what happens to me when I go to church.

Sometimes I have to force myself to go. When I get there, I don't always want to participate in what is going on.

It doesn't make much difference whether I make an effort to participate in the worship part of the service or not; at some point, whatever negative mood I was in is gone, it is like a black cloud lifts from my soul.

I know that this is not a good explanation, but it is the best I can do.

[CMike11]

I would imagine different people feel different things depending on their beliefs and such.

[TaylorW65]

I wish that I could explain. I don't have the vocabulary to explain what happens to me when I go to church.

Sometimes I have to force myself to go. When I get there, I don't always want to participate in what is going on.

It doesn't make much difference whether I make an effort to participate in the worship part of the service or not; at some point, whatever negative mood I was in is gone, it is like a black cloud lifts from my soul.

I know that this is not a good explanation, but it is the best I can do.


I feel the same way when i am with friends or when I go to my 12 step meeting. I never leave feeling bad although there may be times I go there feeling badly.

Which is why I believe God is found in other people.

[Chuangtzu]

I would suggest that there IS no chemical explanation. But then again, I also have no inclination to assume that there is a chemical reaction that explains why many people see something that is often described as "an angel of death" or any number of things like that.

I don't have a biological explanation for such things. But people see such things.

But, there is a chemical reaction, if you feel it. Feelings are electro-chemistry.

[ROBERTENEAL]

I feel the same way when i am with friends or when I go to my 12 step meeting. I never leave feeling bad although there may be times I go there feeling badly.

Which is why I believe God is found in other people.

No one has ever figured out a 12 step program that can help me. :eek::shifty:

[Gem]

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining the physiological and chemical foundations of the experience of "Presence"?

Not assuming (at this point) either the existence of God(s), or nonexistence. Not assuming immanence, transcendence, or non-transcendental reality.

Only the actual chemistry of the feeling.

Feels great.

[Harmonious]

But, there is a chemical reaction, if you feel it. Feelings are electro-chemistry.

Fair enough. But I wouldn't know WHY it happens, or what it is. Only THAT it is.

[smyrna]

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining the physiological and chemical foundations of the experience of "Presence"?

Not assuming (at this point) either the existence of God(s), or nonexistence. Not assuming immanence, transcendence, or non-transcendental reality.

Only the actual chemistry of the feeling.

Chuangtzu...it's a real good buzz.

[Semi-Sweet]

The lines from Psalms 139 seem as appropriate for the unbeliever as the believer. . . .

Whither shall I go from thy Spirit?
Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend to heaven, thou art there?
If I make my bed in Sheol thou art there!
If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

[TaylorW65]

No one has ever figured out a 12 step program that can help me. :eek::shifty:

What is your problem? :)

[ROBERTENEAL]

What is your problem? :)

I wish that everyone would do what I want them to do. :boohoo:
I'm not selfish, though :liar:

[TaylorW65]

I wish that everyone would do what I want them to do. :boohoo:
I'm not selfish, though :liar:

You sound like a normal typical human then. :)

[ROBERTENEAL]

You sound like a normal typical human then. :)

Sometimes I think that all of my woes are unique, but maybe that is not really the case.

One thing I am sure of, there is not a 12 step program in the world that would get rid of everything that bugs me.

I am one of these people who just has to pack baggage. Even after a burden has been removed, I keep picking it up anyway.

[Amallek]

Dawkins (The God Delusion) thinks it is the human system misfiring. It is a feature that evolved into us for a practical purpose, but we lost the purpose, and we are now mis-interpreting the feeling as the presence of a higher power.

[TaylorW65]

Sometimes I think that all of my woes are unique, but maybe that is not really the case.

One thing I am sure of, there is not a 12 step program in the world that would get rid of everything that bugs me.

I am one of these people who just has to pack baggage. Even after a burden has been removed, I keep picking it up anyway.

I think accepting ones self just as we are is a key to serenity. Understanding that we are human and that we all have our quirks and problems helps bring some peace.

Also remember that acceptance doesn't mean I have to like it, it means I quit struggling against it.

[ROBERTENEAL]

I think accepting ones self just as we are is a key to serenity. Understanding that we are human and that we all have our quirks and problems helps bring some peace.

Also remember that acceptance doesn't mean I have to like it, it means I quit struggling against it.

I don't think that I can be accused of trying to be perfect.
I just wish that I could figure everybody and everything out.

[Chuangtzu]

Dawkins (The God Delusion) thinks it is the human system misfiring. It is a feature that evolved into us for a practical purpose, but we lost the purpose, and we are now mis-interpreting the feeling as the presence of a higher power.

Whilst I agree that "presence" is physiological, I don't know if "misfire" is the appropriate term.

"Misfire" assumes a more complete knowledge of the brain, biochemistry and the changing human relationship to mutable environments than I think we currently possess.

All the same, the nature of responses is a bit odd to me.

***

I'm not asking how "presence" feels, in the sense of the term a respondent prefers to use to describe it (good, awesome, etc) - but what it is folks think is actually happening.

[Amallek]

Dawkins would agree with you. Misfire is only a hypothesis, and more complete knowledge is necessary to prove the hypothesis. Where Dawkins would come out though, is that while that complexity is currently not understood, the problem is not likely "irreducible complexity", which is the logic that theists use to support the argument that there must a God.

[Meriweather]

Dawkins (The God Delusion) thinks it is the human system misfiring. It is a feature that evolved into us for a practical purpose, but we lost the purpose, and we are now mis-interpreting the feeling as the presence of a higher power.

To me, this seems more like getting the cart before the horse. You seem to believe that people get a feeling (chemically induced) and identify this chemically induced feeling as the presence of God.

Presence is presence, whether it is a physical presence or a spiritual one. How one feels in the presence is a reaction to the presence. Also, one can remember/relive one's feelings without the presence.

It seems this is being made more complicated than it really is. Again, the experience is not that much difference than being in the presence of a physical being. A friend walks into a room, then one feels happiness (chemical reaction). That does not mean that one cannot experience happiness (chemical reaction) unless the friend is present. One does not mistake happiness (chemical reaction) as the presence of a friend.

More apropos may be the question of how does one recognize/identify the presence as God? Do you consider the recognition or identification of a friend to also be a chemical reaction? One recognizes someone based on the qualities that person possesses. It is no different if the presence is spiritual.

[Amallek]

To me, this seems more like getting the cart before the horse. You seem to believe that people get a feeling (chemically induced) and identify this chemically induced feeling as the presence of God.

Presence is presence, whether it is a physical presence or a spiritual one. How one feels in the presence is a reaction to the presence. Also, one can remember/relive one's feelings without the presence.

It seems this is being made more complicated than it really is. Again, the experience is not that much difference than being in the presence of a physical being. A friend walks into a room, then one feels happiness (chemical reaction). That does not mean that one cannot experience happiness (chemical reaction) unless the friend is present. One does not mistake happiness (chemical reaction) as the presence of a friend.

More apropos may be the question of how does one recognize/identify the presence as God? Do you consider the recognition or identification of a friend to also be a chemical reaction? One recognizes someone based on the qualities that person possesses. It is no different if the presence is spiritual.

Ah, but what if presence is actually not presence, but merely a perception of something which is interpreted as presence, a perception that should instead have been interpreted as a signal that "there are no bears outside the cave tonight" That would be a case of misfiring, or miswiring of the perception response. Because we no longer require the ability to perceive the presence or absence of bears, those who misinterpret it were not culled from the gene pool. Instead, they became baptists.

[smyrna]

Whilst I agree that "presence" is physiological, I don't know if "misfire" is the appropriate term.

"Misfire" assumes a more complete knowledge of the brain, biochemistry and the changing human relationship to mutable environments than I think we currently possess.

All the same, the nature of responses is a bit odd to me.

***

I'm not asking how "presence" feels, in the sense of the term a respondent prefers to use to describe it (good, awesome, etc) - but what it is folks think is actually happening.

Oooooooooooooh...then forget what I said about the buzz.

[graatz]

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining the physiological and chemical foundations of the experience of "Presence"?

You mean that feeling you sometimes get when you're alone in the house but you think someone has broken in? Mind tricks. A natural fear of being taken by surprise when you're unaccompanied. With that fear present, your mind is tuned into any sight or sound that might confirm your fears, and so hearing the foundation settling or noticing saccadic masking confirm, to your mind, the suspicion that you aren't alone.

I'm not sure what other Presence you are referring to. If I understood the context, perhaps I could take a stab at explaining it :)

[Meriweather]

Ah, but what if presence is actually not presence, but merely a perception of something which is interpreted as presence, a perception that should instead have been interpreted as a signal that "there are no bears outside the cave tonight" That would be a case of misfiring, or miswiring of the perception response. Because we no longer require the ability to perceive the presence or absence of bears, those who misinterpret it were not culled from the gene pool. Instead, they became baptists.

All right, I may be starting to understand where you are coming from. A caveman hears a noise outside the cave and imagines bears. A woman, at home alone, hears the house creak, and imagines an intruder. A child imagines a monster under his bed or in his closet. The imagination triggers a chemical response of fear.

In other words, this thread really isn't about chemical responses, it's more about the, "You have an imaginary friend" hypothesis and about how imaginings can trigger brain chemistry.

Scientifically, what you would like to set up are two groups of people. One group who is in the presence of God, and one group imagining they are inthe presence of God. (Kind of like one group who is in the presence of a friend and the other group imagining they are in the presence of a friend.) Are the reactions to the imaginary as vivid as the reactions to reality? Is the reaction of someone who imagines an intruder in the house the same reaction of someone who sees the intruder inside the house?

I know my answers to the above questions, but what say you?

[Chuangtzu]

Ah, but what if presence is actually not presence, but merely a perception of something which is interpreted as presence, a perception that should instead have been interpreted as a signal that "there are no bears outside the cave tonight" That would be a case of misfiring, or miswiring of the perception response. Because we no longer require the ability to perceive the presence or absence of bears, those who misinterpret it were not culled from the gene pool. Instead, they became baptists.

That is the rub.

Is there a disconnect between the experience (about which we assume reports to be true) and the interpretation?

[Chuangtzu]

You mean that feeling you sometimes get when you're alone in the house but you think someone has broken in? Mind tricks. A natural fear of being taken by surprise when you're unaccompanied. With that fear present, your mind is tuned into any sight or sound that might confirm your fears, and so hearing the foundation settling or noticing saccadic masking confirm, to your mind, the suspicion that you aren't alone.

I'm not sure what other Presence you are referring to. If I understood the context, perhaps I could take a stab at explaining it :)

Not exactly.

"Presence of God" is a theological concept - that one feels, literally, the presence of the spirit, in one's own actions and deeds.

I assume that this feeling is real. What is the physiology of that moment?

[Chuangtzu]

Wow. Just realized this was moved to GI. That makes no sense.

[graatz]

"Presence of God" is a theological concept - that one feels, literally, the presence of the spirit, in one's own actions and deeds.

You mean the uplifting feeling that you get when you do a good deed? Studies have linked being altruistic with the pleasure pathway in the brain. Bringing happiness to others releases happy neurotransmitters in our own brains. Studies have also found that being alone with our thoughts, trying to think about what will make us happy, increases our levels of depression and anxiety. In many ways, then, the brain is actually programmed to think of the well-being of others rather than Self. Is this the so-called Presence of God? I don't know. I've never felt anything that made me feel like a deity was present...

[graatz]

Wow. Just realized this was moved to GI. That makes no sense.

It looks like a lot of RF threads that were leaning into science were just moved.

[Dreamy]

But, there is a chemical reaction, if you feel it. Feelings are electro-chemistry.


I also can feel the soul of another sometimes. Is that a chemical reaction?

[Amallek]

All right, I may be starting to understand where you are coming from. A c

Scientifically, what you would like to set up are two groups of people. One group who is in the presence of God, and one group imagining they are inthe presence of God. (Kind of like one group who is in the presence of a friend and the other group imagining they are in the presence of a friend.) Are the reactions to the imaginary as vivid as the reactions to reality? Is the reaction of someone who imagines an intruder in the house the same reaction of someone who sees the intruder inside the house?

I know my answers to the above questions, but what say you?

It would nice if that would work, but there are some serious theological problems with your experiment. How would you go about sucking all the God out of room so you could conduct your experiment? Most world religions believe that God in omnipresent - everywhere, even with the infidels.

[graatz]

I also can feel the soul of another sometimes. Is that a chemical reaction?

If you are actually feeling something, then yes, it must be an electro-chemical reaction. What does it mean to feel the soul of another? Is it similar to empathy?

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Anyone care to take a stab at explaining the physiological and chemical foundations of the experience of "Presence"?

Not assuming (at this point) either the existence of God(s), or nonexistence. Not assuming immanence, transcendence, or non-transcendental reality.

Only the actual chemistry of the feeling.

It's Monday..with a question like this it has to be..lol.

Here is my 'stab' at an answer:
Think of yourself as not one person in a physical only sense. Think of yourself as the 'seen' physical and 'unseen' non physical body combined. We are in deed a combination of two whole parts.

Example: When the unseen non physical reacts to a 'presence', the physical seen body also has a reaction; ie 'feelings', chemical reactions. This does go both ways...when the physical is in pain or distress, the unseen body reacts. Hospital staff most regularly see this phenomena in their pre and post surgical patients.

Those patients who are fearful of surgery have a experiance that is much different from those patients who are not fearful or who use prayer to get through the surgery. Once the anesthesia is administered, the physical mind is put at complete rest and goes on auto pilot; meaning no sentient thought occurs. The unseen body however, is not affected by the anesthesia and remembers, feels and does react to the surgery. So in essence, a chemical reaction subdued in the physical body does not prohibit a reaction in the unseen none physical body.

I'll see if I can find the study done by the board of anesthesia that was completed not to long ago on the cause and affects of the two.

~Mysty

[Dreamy]

If you are actually feeling something, then yes, it must be an electro-chemical reaction. What does it mean to feel the soul of another? Is it similar to empathy?

It is an unexplained connection for me. I can share the same words with 2 people and only one will connect with my soul. Why? And these people can be people I have never met.

[Chuangtzu]

You mean the uplifting feeling that you get when you do a good deed? Studies have linked being altruistic with the pleasure pathway in the brain. Bringing happiness to others releases happy neurotransmitters in our own brains. Studies have also found that being alone with our thoughts, trying to think about what will make us happy, increases our levels of depression and anxiety. In many ways, then, the brain is actually programmed to think of the well-being of others rather than Self. Is this the so-called Presence of God? I don't know. I've never felt anything that made me feel like a deity was present...

Not a good deed feeling.

"Presence" - the proximity of some unseen Other.

[graatz]

Not a good deed feeling.

"Presence" - the proximity of some unseen Other.

:confused: I think you've really lost me. You say that Presence is "in one's own actions and deeds" and you say that Presence feels like the proximity of someone else? I know what it means to "feel" someone staring you down, and I know what it means to get feelings after doing deeds. But I don't know what it means to have the feeling of someone within my deeds. Is this a feeling that I can have with other humans? I guess what I don't understand is do you mean Presence feels like someone nearby watches you doing things? All things? Or just particular things? And if I'm still missing the mark, I fear I'll still need a better explanation.

... at this point wondering if atheists actually lack the sensory equipment for Presence, since I haven't read anything in this thread that I can relate to, even though I can relate when poets describe other sensory data.

[Dreamy]

Does this in anyway relate to the known senses?

[sgdp]

When I went on a ghost tour for Halloween last year, the guide explained that all the lights flickering were spirits.

Is that what we're talking about? :eek: