Taliban Outreach

[geauxtohell]

Two quick points to start:

1.) The Taliban was recognized as an official political party and allowed to field and run candidates in the October 2005 elections.

2.) Karzai has constantly tried to bring the Taliban back into the fold and apparently supports Obama's suggestions to diaglogue with the more moderate elements.


Afghani President Hamid Karzai has welcomed a suggestion by US President Barack Obama that talks could be talks with moderate elements of the Taliban as part of a process of reconciliation.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/09/2510582.htm?section=justin

For the strategic thinks on the board: your thoughts?

I am not sure. If we can leverage a tactical advantage by talking to the Taliban, I am all for it. However, I don't think this will work simply because I don't think the Taliban will be open to the prospects. It's not a bad ploy to divide and conquer, but I don't think the Taliban will be divided. I think they will always retain their link to an extremist and violent faction.

Thoughts?

BTW, for all others, please don't muck the thread with they typical "Obama is a muslim operative" crap. There are plenty of other threads for you to do that. I am interested in a serious conversation on this matter.

[Antrel]

I kinda hit the other thread up with a one-liner, but if it's what Karzai wants to do, and thinks is best, I say let him go for it, but I don't think we should be dealing with the Taliban one way or another.

[H-minus]

Moderate extremists.

What's wrong with this picture?

[Loyal American]

Geaux, I too wish for NO Obama, lib/dem bashing because we need to think this out, the possibilities if indeed there are some.

You reviewed my P-stan/A-stan thread and thats what I have on my mind at the moment. The type of deals it takes to gain Taliban cooperation.

How do you get the Taliban to sit down and talk, cooperate when P-stan is cutting deals to stop fighting in exchange the Taliban gets to impliment strict Islamic law? Taliban is feeling successful right now, I can't see them cutting deals that will allow a democracy to exist which is against everything they stand for and believe in!

I really wish Gen Petraeus would do a news conf. so we can hear what he's thinking is on this matter.

[Dacarlo]

Moderate Talibans? :eh:

[TheFallGuy]

Moderate extremists.

What's wrong with this picture?

Absolutely nothing.

We should have tea and crumpets with them. /sarcasm

Having a civilized discussion with barbarians is as ridiculous as it is futile.

[Hereintheusa]

I think we can all agree that the situation we found ourselves embroiled in Iraq allowed us to be diverted from the real problem the Taliban. Over the past few years they have had the opportunity to regroup and refocus.

However that said the one big success that Iraq gave us was the fact that AQ concentrated all its efforts in the region and as a result I do believe their orgnaization has suffeered by having many of its top personnel killed or captured.

I always believed that the real fight against radical Islam was in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[Loyal American]

Absolutely nothing.

We should have tea and crumpets with them. /sarcasm

Having a civilized discussion with barbarians is as ridiculous as it is futile.
But everyone said the same thing about the sunni in Iraq! I didn't even think we could turn them around BUT it happened! So the question is: Is there a group of Taliban willing to work with us/their government? Taliban willing to be part of a democracy?

[Loyal American]

I think we can all agree that the situation we found ourselves embroiled in Iraq allowed us to be diverted from the real problem the Taliban. Over the past few years they have had the opportunity to regroup and refocus.

However that said the one big success that Iraq gave us was the fact that AQ concentrated all its efforts in the region and as a result I do believe their orgnaization has suffeered by having many of its top personnel killed or captured. They concentrated their efforts while forcing Iraqis to join them and if they didn't they'd lined them up and shoot them. This all worked to our advantage in the end. In otherwords they turned their base against them and we were their to offer an alternative. I don't know if that's actually happened in A-stan?!?!

I always believed that the real fight against radical Islam was in Afghanistan and Pakistan.I will agree with this to an extent. AQ lost footing in Iraq and failed because of their own barbaric behavior towards their own people and have now gathered to help the Taliban, one last big hoorah if you will. They've got their eye set on taking over P-stan right now! I don't know how that fits into us trying to work with A-stan Taliban but I'm thinking it's tied in and it's not a good idea to show weakness at this point in time.

[kenpoman]

why and how can anyone come to the conclusion those
homicial psychopaths would be willing to discuss or share
anything?

their history is clear on this point.

any agreement reached with them would be (IMO) fatally flawed
from the start

[Crossriflesonblue]

Iraq was not a diversion it was a strategic move.....The US turned the Afghanistan problem over to the UN.....the UN should have done its job but it failed miserably.....nor has the NATO mission been any great success....

One thing the big war Army guys have said since Vietnam was that it would never get involved in small stuff or the post war stuff again....and built a force that mirrored that philosophy the Powell Doctrine came from that mindset....

Some say the Vietnam Syndrome was disposed of by Desert Storm...BS they had Saddam on the run and quit...they wanted to avoid the hard work....the post war stuff.....they had downplayed the legitimacy of such work to the point where they had scrubbed the force memory of how to do it.....

OIF finally disposed of the Vietnam syndrome...they had to bring in a small War guy to straighten the Army out Lt. Gen. Schoomaker...they did the hard work.....and the Wienberger Doctrine passed into history...that is if Obama doesn't declare defeat and they give Casey a couple of more years....

Now back to Afghanistan and Pakistan.....things have changed...Pakistan is now the prize.....the fight in Afghanistan should not drive the strategy for Southern Asia, the goal is the destruction of Al Qaeda and a stable South Asia, this can be accomplished but there are pitfalls that must be avoided......We must not become hated occupiers of Afghanistan...We must work with Pakistan stop Taliban inroads in Pakistan....We must work with India to bring the civilian Pakistani government to the realization that buisiness as usual in Pakistan is no longer going to be tolerated....buisiness as usual in Pakistan is two governments, one civilian and one a shadow government made up of ISI and the Army....one governed by the rule of law and another a criminal enterprize...The one thing Obama doesn't want to do is to further legitimize the Taliban......

[Loyal American]

why and how can anyone come to the conclusion those
homicial psychopaths would be willing to discuss or share
anything?

their history is clear on this point.

any agreement reached with them would be (IMO) fatally flawed
from the startYou know I rarely every question you BUT again, everyone said the exact same thing about the sunni, right?

Do you think Obama just dreamed this up all by hiimself or do you think Gen. Patraeus has suggested this as a possible approach?

[kenpoman]

You know I rarely every question you BUT again, everyone said the exact same thing about the sunni, right?

Do you think Obama just dreamed this up all by hiimself or do you think Gen. Patraeus has suggested this as a possible approach?

I hope to God Patraeus didn't come up with this. being in theatre, he
should know better.

folks who said the Sunni won't negoitate don't know the Sunni.
or Arabs in general. you just gotta make it worth their time if you
want it to be in good faith.

now, I will admit to being dead wrong when I said there was no way
Iraq and Iran would ever enter into serious talks. that one caught me
totally by suprise.

my point is based not on them being allegedly muslim, but their but their
fanatical nature. folks who will hang men who don't have beards from
swingsets are not folks who have their oars all in the water.

again, history speaks: Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao, Musolinni, Stalin,
the Czars never talked of power sharing and playing nice with others.

they enforced their will via the spear, until someone took the spear
away from them.

[Loyal American]

I hope to God Patraeus didn't come up with this. being in theatre, he
should know better.

folks who said the Sunni won't negoitate don't know the Sunni.
or Arabs in general. you just gotta make it worth their time if you
want it to be in good faith.

now, I will admit to being dead wrong when I said there was no way
Iraq and Iran would ever enter into serious talks. that one caught me
totally by suprise.

my point is based not on them being allegedly muslim, but their but their
fanatical nature. folks who will hang men who don't have beards from
swingsets are not folks who have their oars all in the water.

again, history speaks: Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao, Musolinni, Stalin,
the Czars never talked of power sharing and playing nice with others.

they enforced their will via the spear, until someone took the spear
away from them.

I know and I think Crossriflesonblue is dead on too, we legitimize the Taliban and it will only further their quest for world wide Islamic rule. They are a crazy ass bunch! I guess a part of me wants to think Obama may have a good idea when I know deep in my heart the idea is deadly!

[TheFallGuy]

But everyone said the same thing about the sunni in Iraq! I didn't even think we could turn them around BUT it happened! So the question is: Is there a group of Taliban willing to work with us/their government? Taliban willing to be part of a democracy?

You have a point.

However, I don't think my opinion is changed by much. The reason is simple. The sunni in Iraq faced not only the US, but came to the realization that they were effectively fighting on too many fronts. The shiites and the kurds were becoming major political movements when the US restructured Iraq. The sunni had the opportunity to join on board, but when they opted out of the electoral process, the shia and kurd became the top regulators of power. The sunni realized that Iraq was going to remain sovereign--the US would eventually move out and the new power structure was being built before their eyes with or without their involvement. Their attempts to sabotage the process largely backfired and made more Iraqis dislike them. That being said, the hand was always held out to them to join. Eventually they realized they would benefit more by joining and working with the new power structure than trying to sabotage it. So, they finally gave in and joined. Another key point, was that the extremist sunnis were a tiny minority within the overall sunni structure. The majority of the sunni wanted to join up with the new Iraq deal.

In Afghanistan, as far as I understand, the Taliban is a political movement, a sect of sunni Islam. They were the problem to begin with, much like the Baathists in Iraq. Since the US has been over there and ousted the Taliban, they've gone from village to village inspiring terror and horror after horror in an attempt to enforce their will on the populace. Instead of inviting freedoms, they curtailed them. Their way is barbarism. This is in the same amount of time that the sunni in Iraq turned around and rejoined the building process in Iraq. Instead of taking part of the restructuring, they've attempted to scuttle it.

Honestly, I don't see them turning away from fire-bombing schools for girls. They don't have as many advantages from joining in the new government.

I would like to be proven wrong. I want to see the afghanistani people living free without the threat of terrorism from their own neighbors and kin. If they sit down and talk and actually DO something, then I might change my opinion. But they will have to act. Actions speak louder than words.

[rhet 2]

You have a point.

However, I don't think my opinion is changed by much. The reason is simple. The sunni in Iraq faced not only the US, but came to the realization that they were effectively fighting on too many fronts. The shiites and the kurds were becoming major political movements when the US restructured Iraq. The sunni had the opportunity to join on board, but when they opted out of the electoral process, the shia and kurd became the top regulators of power. The sunni realized that Iraq was going to remain sovereign--the US would eventually move out and the new power structure was being built before their eyes with or without their involvement. Their attempts to sabotage the process largely backfired and made more Iraqis dislike them. That being said, the hand was always held out to them to join. Eventually they realized they would benefit more by joining and working with the new power structure than trying to sabotage it. So, they finally gave in and joined. Another key point, was that the extremist sunnis were a tiny minority within the overall sunni structure. The majority of the sunni wanted to join up with the new Iraq deal.

In Afghanistan, as far as I understand, the Taliban is a political movement, a sect of sunni Islam. They were the problem to begin with, much like the Baathists in Iraq. Since the US has been over there and ousted the Taliban, they've gone from village to village inspiring terror and horror after horror in an attempt to enforce their will on the populace. Instead of inviting freedoms, they curtailed them. Their way is barbarism. This is in the same amount of time that the sunni in Iraq turned around and rejoined the building process in Iraq. Instead of taking part of the restructuring, they've attempted to scuttle it.

Honestly, I don't see them turning away from fire-bombing schools for girls. They don't have as many advantages from joining in the new government.

I would like to be proven wrong. I want to see the afghanistani people living free without the threat of terrorism from their own neighbors and kin. If they sit down and talk and actually DO something, then I might change my opinion. But they will have to act. Actions speak louder than words.

The Sunni and the Shia in Iraq were not radicalized, except for a few trouble makers who bought into the Racist Supremacy garbage of the islamic death cults.

Neither the Sunni nor the Shia tribal chiefs were ever jihadi Death Cult practicioners.

The Taliban were radicalized by Deobandi extremists in the Pakistani refugee camps during the Soviet occupation. They ARE extremists who truly believe in the Imperial Destiny of islamic jihad, truly believe that shari'a in all its most grotesque horrors is the TRUE WAY.

We cannot coexist with such fanatic racism and brutal inhumanity.

And I seriously doubt they can coexist with a multi-cultural tolerant society such as ours.

[TheFallGuy]

The Sunni and the Shia in Iraq were not radicalized, except for a few trouble makers who bought into the Racist Supremacy garbage of the islamic death cults.

Neither the Sunni nor the Shia tribal chiefs were ever jihadi Death Cult practicioners.

The Taliban were radicalized by Deobandi extremists in the Pakistani refugee camps during the Soviet occupation. They ARE extremists who truly believe in the Imperial Destiny of islamic jihad, truly believe that shari'a in all its most grotesque horrors is the TRUE WAY.

We cannot coexist with such fanatic racism and brutal inhumanity.

And I seriously doubt they can coexist with a multi-cultural tolerant society such as ours.

Coexisting with fanatic racism steeped in misogyny is an oxymoron.

I honestly hope LA is more on the right track. I would much rather be able to have them sit down and talk rationally about this. It would solve a lot of problems and save billions of dollars.

[Crossriflesonblue]

Coexisting with fanatic racism steeped in misogyny is an oxymoron.

I honestly hope LA is more on the right track. I would much rather be able to have them sit down and talk rationally about this. It would solve a lot of problems and save billions of dollars.

There are worse actors in this region than the Taliban....Talking to the Taliban must not mean appeasement.....Talking could be a means to keep the bad guys in the region from merging into one entity, which would mean chaos in Pakistan.....

[rhet 2]

There are worse actors in this region than the Taliban....Talking to the Taliban must not mean appeasement.....Talking could be a means to keep the bad guys in the region from merging into one entity, which would mean chaos in Pakistan.....

If it would lead to an open society where we can get in and counter the hellish racism and misogyny of the Death Cults, then I'd say "go for it" -- but it won't.

The imams demand a closed society absolutely under their own control in every detail. The Taliban, AQ, Mahdrists, etc., all operate exactly like the Koresh and Jones cults did -- CLOSED societies with absolute control by the few perverts in power who use every social force to create and reenforce mind-control over entire populations through perversion of religion and brutal crimes against humanity.

Their thug gangs used to stop men on the street to measure their beard length -- and execute on the spot any man whose beard even looked like non-prescribed conformity.

Women were executed if they made noise when walking inside their own homes.

This is one of the most brutal and cruel cultures in existence.

I seriously doubt they CAN tolerate other cultures, even that of the far less rigid Sunni AQ now surging to supreme power over P-stan -- which is pure hell in the making for India.

I think the recent explosion into India is only the beginning -- and I'm expecting explosions in the Balkans, as well. Kenya should explode into still more violence at any time. Chad is a growing horror -- and Sudan is far from solved -- like P-stan and Iran, a seed bed of violence to be exported into neighboring countries.

Let the Taliban back out into the open, and all you get is return to the brutal crimes against humanity of the past -- in spades.

We're dealing with religious fanatics -- fully indoctrinated into an ideology centered on destroying all other cultures -- centered on racial supremacy, hatred for women, brutal suppression of individualism and humanism itself -- and that kind of psychological warping and lock-down into actual CULT level psychopathy doesn't ever get corrected -- not at the hard-core leadership levels.

The best we can do is pull the side-liners not yet fully locked into the cult ideology away from the control of the leaders and get those some help recovering from the indoctrination into racism and misogyny.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Two quick points to start:

1.) The Taliban was recognized as an official political party and allowed to field and run candidates in the October 2005 elections.

2.) Karzai has constantly tried to bring the Taliban back into the fold and apparently supports Obama's suggestions to diaglogue with the more moderate elements.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/09/2510582.htm?section=justin

For the strategic thinks on the board: your thoughts?

I am not sure. If we can leverage a tactical advantage by talking to the Taliban, I am all for it. However, I don't think this will work simply because I don't think the Taliban will be open to the prospects. It's not a bad ploy to divide and conquer, but I don't think the Taliban will be divided. I think they will always retain their link to an extremist and violent faction.

Thoughts?

BTW, for all others, please don't muck the thread with they typical "Obama is a muslim operative" crap. There are plenty of other threads for you to do that. I am interested in a serious conversation on this matter.
No insurgency I know of has been successfully defeated without negotiating with the insurgents and bringing them back into the political fold.

[Loyal American]

No insurgency I know of has been successfully defeated without negotiating with the insurgents and bringing them back into the political fold.

OK but how does that happen when you have an insurgent who doesn't believe in a democratic government, elections and so on? So we will be seeing deals cut like P-stan has where the Taliban can rule in certain areas with strict Islamic law???

I just don't know about that. :think:

Do you see it turning out any other way because I can't right now!

[Sneaky SF Dude]

OK but how does that happen when you have an insurgent who doesn't believe in a democratic government, elections and so on? So we will be seeing deals cut like P-stan has where the Taliban can rule in certain areas with strict Islamic law???

I just don't know about that. :think:

Do you see it turning out any other way because I can't right now!

Why do they have to have a democratic government? England still has a king. Canada didn't get their constitution until a few years ago.

The Taliban would win in their areas anyway.

[Loyal American]

Why do they have to have a democratic government? England still has a king. Canada didn't get their constitution until a few years ago.

The Taliban would win in their areas anyway.

There is a huge difference between Canada/England and the Taliban! What happened to us defeating the enemy? Can't be done? Sneaky look at whats happening in P-stan! You give them and inch and next they are talkin' world wide Islamic rule! How does anyone in their right mind negotiate with someone like that?

I sure hope they know what the heck their doing!

[kenpoman]

No insurgency I know of has been successfully defeated without negotiating with the insurgents and bringing them back into the political fold.


problem is, the insurgents gotta be honest brokers.
otherwise they're just playing and using the talks to buy time.

the IRA, for example, didn't get serious about talks with England
until they'd had 100 years of conflict.

I don't see any real evidence the Taliban are ready to
earnestly talk. everything I see says they're waiting for us
to tire out and go home.

then they come back to power their way.

[kenpoman]

Why do they have to have a democratic government? England still has a king. Canada didn't get their constitution until a few years ago.

The Taliban would win in their areas anyway.

England's king hasn't had real power for generations.
#10 Downing runs the nation.

Canada followed the UKs rules pre constitution, which included
some form of representative gov't for generations as well.

[RedStatePaPa]

Just because Obama wants to talk turkey with "moderate" taliban, doesn't mean we have not been doing that already.

Who is to say we haven't been doing that all along?

[Gengar]

The thing is, these supposed "moderate" elements of the Taliban aren't actually in control of the Taliban. This "outreach" will only serve to weaken our efforts in Afghanistan.

More useless drivel from the Obama Administration.

[rhet 2]

The thing is, these supposed "moderate" elements of the Taliban aren't actually in control of the Taliban. This "outreach" will only serve to weaken our efforts in Afghanistan.

More useless drivel from the Obama Administration.

Nor does His Emperorship speak for Karzai and the Afghan people.

Think Karzai and his loyal troops, trained and fighting hard alongside our own, would go for this "truce" with the men who slaughtered their own friends and families and made their homeland a living hell?

[geauxtohell]

I don't think this talking point originated with Obama. It's a radical departure from his earlier, "we are going to attack them in Pakistan".

I think either Karzai or GEN Petraeus is suggesting it.

I don't know how effective it would be, but I wonder if this is an attempt to divorce the Afghani Taliban that is in country from the Pakistani Taliban, which is turning into an even more extremist movement?

Basically legitimize the Afghani Taliban who are interested in regaining power in Afghanistan and seperate them from the Pakistani Taliban who recently said they want to refocus their efforts on taking down Islamabad.

Either way, it's a deal with the devil.

[geauxtohell]

Nor does His Emperorship speak for Karzai and the Afghan people.

Think Karzai and his loyal troops, trained and fighting hard alongside our own, would go for this "truce" with the men who slaughtered their own friends and families and made their homeland a living hell?

Read the OP Rhet, Karzai already stated that he supports this.

In fact, I think Karzai was behind it to a degree.

Keep in mind (most people don't know this), that Karzai insisted that the Taliban be allowed to run as a political party in the October '05 elections. I think he realizes that the taliban is never going to go away and he is trying to moderate them.

Whether that will work or not, I have my doubts. At best I just see the group splintering or becoming like the IRA and Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland.

[rhet 2]

Read the OP Rhet, Karzai already stated that he supports this.

In fact, I think Karzai was behind it to a degree.

Keep in mind (most people don't know this), that Karzai insisted that the Taliban be allowed to run as a political party in the October '05 elections. I think he realizes that the taliban is never going to go away and he is trying to moderate them.

Whether that will work or not, I have my doubts. At best I just see the group splintering or becoming like the IRA and Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland.

If Karzai is a suicidal fool, that's the business of the people who elect him.

And if Obama is a suicidal fool, that's our business.

What I do know is this: the members of the Taliban Death Cult are UNABLE AND UNWILLING to abandon their religious and socio-cultural fanatic hatreds -- they are NOT psychologically stable personalities that can live normal lives, not without intense psychological therapy to get them out of cult indoctrinations.

And I'm VERY grateful I wasn't born to that culture -- or subject to Karzai's leadership.

Bad enough that I'm stuck surviving the egegious criminalized fools who USURPED power in November.

We've got life and death crises of our own on our own soil now -- no time or energy to spare to help the poor Afghans, not now.

The rest of the universe -- even Europe and Canada and the Aussies -- are going to have to cope as best they can, while we try to repair the catastrophes being shoved down our own throats.

[kenpoman]

I don't think this talking point originated with Obama. It's a radical departure from his earlier, "we are going to attack them in Pakistan".

I think either Karzai or GEN Petraeus is suggesting it.

I don't know how effective it would be, but I wonder if this is an attempt to divorce the Afghani Taliban that is in country from the Pakistani Taliban, which is turning into an even more extremist movement?

Basically legitimize the Afghani Taliban who are interested in regaining power in Afghanistan and seperate them from the Pakistani Taliban who recently said they want to refocus their efforts on taking down Islamabad.

Either way, it's a deal with the devil.

my guess is its Karzai.
the Taliban are dug in and not going anywhere politically or physically.

we on the other hand have the appearance of waffling and wanting to
be done with them. if the west pulls out, his gov't falls in weeks.
he's probably hoping to remain viable by making nice with them.

I don't see it working. these guys don't talk - they kill. talking just
gets the killing put off for awhile while they kill someone else.

[Gengar]

Nor does His Emperorship speak for Karzai and the Afghan people.

Think Karzai and his loyal troops, trained and fighting hard alongside our own, would go for this "truce" with the men who slaughtered their own friends and families and made their homeland a living hell?

Unfortunately, yes, I think they would...

[jaggy]

I still don't believe theres a "moderate"taliban. those moderate must be the dead one. or those who run with an ammo.

[Gengar]

So much for that idea!

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/09/content_10977772.htm

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan, March 9 (Xinhua) -- Zabihullah Mujahed, the purported Taliban spokesman, in response with U.S. President Barack Obama's call to reach out to moderate Taliban, reiterated on Monday that Taliban's framework is consolidated and there would be no talks unless all the international troops withdraw from Afghanistan.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

problem is, the insurgents gotta be honest brokers.
otherwise they're just playing and using the talks to buy time.

the IRA, for example, didn't get serious about talks with England
until they'd had 100 years of conflict.

I don't see any real evidence the Taliban are ready to
earnestly talk. everything I see says they're waiting for us
to tire out and go home.

then they come back to power their way.

So what do you want to do?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

England's king hasn't had real power for generations.
#10 Downing runs the nation.

Canada followed the UKs rules pre constitution, which included
some form of representative gov't for generations as well.

How do we know who has the power - there hasn't been a challenge.

Doesn't change anything I said.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

The thing is, these supposed "moderate" elements of the Taliban aren't actually in control of the Taliban. This "outreach" will only serve to weaken our efforts in Afghanistan.

More useless drivel from the Obama Administration.

Or it could put them in control. No result is inevitable in war.

[Gengar]

Now ya just have to find the "moderate" terrorists. ;)

[Loyal American]

I don't think this talking point originated with Obama. It's a radical departure from his earlier, "we are going to attack them in Pakistan".

I think either Karzai or GEN Petraeus is suggesting it.

I don't know how effective it would be, but I wonder if this is an attempt to divorce the Afghani Taliban that is in country from the Pakistani Taliban, which is turning into an even more extremist movement?

Basically legitimize the Afghani Taliban who are interested in regaining power in Afghanistan and seperate them from the Pakistani Taliban who recently said they want to refocus their efforts on taking down Islamabad.

Either way, it's a deal with the devil.

I've been thinking the above highlighted has to be what's goin' on geaux! When you have rival A-stan Taliban leaders setting their differences aside to work together with the P-stan Taliban and both have pledged total support to AQ something has to be done. A-stan is on the back burner, they want P-stan and as it's been pointed out to me they have the big price.... nukes!!!

Here are some recent LWJ entries, I'm not saying they have it spot on in every entry but they break things down so I can understand it:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/taliban_execute_paki.php

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/taliban_violate_swat.php

They better be doing something to slow the Taliban efforts down in P-stan even if it is nothing more than a wedge between the two Taliban, as you have suggested, because they are on a roll right now! Strength in togetherness! This could blow up into a very serious situation AND you can't believe a damn thing P-stan claims. I don't think they can handle the Taliban at all so to save face they make all sorts of claims of having killed top Taliban when they didn't or they killed 50 when it was 6....... so on! So in the end our military leaders have to be trying to figure out how to effectively stop this major momentum!

[kenpoman]

How do we know who has the power - there hasn't been a challenge.

Doesn't change anything I said.

an ongoing insurgency isn't a challenge?
since when?

[kenpoman]

So what do you want to do?

stay the course for the time being and see if there IS any
evidence the Taliban are doing more than just stalling.

and in the meantime, kill as many as possible. even zelots
get tired of shedding blood.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

an ongoing insurgency isn't a challenge?
since when?

There's an ongoing insurgency in England?

[Sneaky SF Dude]

stay the course for the time being and see if there IS any
evidence the Taliban are doing more than just stalling.

and in the meantime, kill as many as possible. even zelots
get tired of shedding blood.

So sit and wait.

We will get tired of it much faster than they will.

[rhet 2]

So sit and wait.

We will get tired of it much faster than they will.

Truth

Patience is NOT an American cultural value.

Meet violence with the troops who specialize in counter guerilla and counter-espionage, counter-sabotage tactics.

And stop the spread of the Cult ideology by counter-teaching -- multiply Radio Free Europe strategies and SATURATE the information sources with counter-jihad ideology so that the Afghan people actually see how Taliban have destroyed them.

Wage the PROPAGANDA wars required to destroy Taliban culture and stabilize a half-decent government at LOCAL levels, village by village and tribe by tribe, while the NEW HUMANIST culture takes hold.

Otherwise, if we refuse to Wage Culture War 200% all out, give up and walk away and try to keep the crap sealed up inside a wasteland called A-stan like the socio-cultural virus it really is.

[kenpoman]

There's an ongoing insurgency in England?

North Ireland.
the 20th century is full of terrorist actions taken both in NI and
on English soil proper by the IRA.

[kenpoman]

So sit and wait.

We will get tired of it much faster than they will.

as I already said, seek verification of Taliban intentions.
and kill them as fast as we find them in the interim.

hardly sitting and waiting.

I would think a military man would understand the
value of getting solid intel (or at least trying) before
launching any action, political or military.

[geauxtohell]

I've been thinking the above highlighted has to be what's goin' on geaux! When you have rival A-stan Taliban leaders setting their differences aside to work together with the P-stan Taliban and both have pledged total support to AQ something has to be done. A-stan is on the back burner, they want P-stan and as it's been pointed out to me they have the big price.... nukes!!!

Here are some recent LWJ entries, I'm not saying they have it spot on in every entry but they break things down so I can understand it:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/taliban_execute_paki.php

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/taliban_violate_swat.php

They better be doing something to slow the Taliban efforts down in P-stan even if it is nothing more than a wedge between the two Taliban, as you have suggested, because they are on a roll right now! Strength in togetherness! This could blow up into a very serious situation AND you can't believe a damn thing P-stan claims. I don't think they can handle the Taliban at all so to save face they make all sorts of claims of having killed top Taliban when they didn't or they killed 50 when it was 6....... so on! So in the end our military leaders have to be trying to figure out how to effectively stop this major momentum!

I can see the logic behind it, I just think it's a huge gamble and am skeptical that it will work.

That being said, I have my doubts that Obama is the one that came up with this idea.

[Loyal American]

WASHINGTON, March 11, 2009 – The United States “is fully supportive” of the Afghan government’s attempts to reconcile with Taliban members, as long as the Taliban accept the will of the people who elected that government, Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell said today.

“There has to be a willingness to work with the government, to respect the government, to turn your arms away from Afghan national security forces and [International Security Assistance Force] forces and U.S. forces that are there,” Morrell said.

Conceding that he has no definition of a “moderate Talib,” he said he believes some members of the Taliban and other extremist groups in Afghanistan “are so radicalized that they … are irreconcilable.”
About 5 percent of the Taliban are incorrigible and must be defeated, Biden said during a joint news conference with NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer. Another 25 percent are unsure of their commitment to the insurgency, he said, and about 70 percent are involved solely because they’re getting paid to be.
Full article in link:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=53439

No definition.... We knew that, right?
5% ???? >>>>>> Biden must be joking!

[Loyal American]

Still thinking about all this, first the administration makes the "we are not winning in A-stan" announcement and then they offer the Taliban this deal.

Now are we in a position to offer deals if we are NOT winning? If you were the Taliban what would you do...........LAUGH? :rolleyes:

[ModerateVoice]

If you were the Taliban what would you do...........LAUGH? :rolleyes:

Trust me, the Taliban are laughing.

Publicly, the Taliban considers Obama's offer to have a dialogue "illogical" according to news sources. Privately, the Taliban considers Obama's offer an act of surrender.

[Loyal American]

Sooooo much for reaching out to the Taliban! :rolleyes:


Taliban deny reports of negotiations with Afghan government

By Bill Roggio
March 16, 2009 1:17 PM

Two Taliban leaders have denied recent reports that the leader of the Afghan group is currently in peace negotiations with the Afghan government.

Taliban spokesman Qari Yousuf Ahmadi and Mohammed Ibrahim Hanafi, a military commander in the southern province in Helmand, denied talks were underway and said reconciliation is not possible as long as foreign troops are in Afghanistan.

"These reports are baseless," Ahmadi said according to Reuters (http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-38528220090316), which picked up the report from the Pakistan-based AIP news agency. "Our position remains unchanged. We will conduct jihad and continue resistance as long as foreign forces are present in Afghanistan."

"If you wait for 3,000 years, our position is that the Taliban will not enter into any kind of talks in the presence of foreign forces in Afghanistan," Ahmadi said.

More in link:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/taliban_deny_reports.php

[tenzerra]

Now we are no longer calling them enemy combatitants....what are they called now by obama....our crazey inlaws?!?

I guess this is the change we can believe in....whats next behead yourself and "maybe" they will accept us?!? Right now...I bet those of you that voted for this train wreck are now trying to say you were mislead...please...this guy is a moron and you voted for this train wreck...Before you libs get up a lather...the stock market dropped 30% from idiot's first day...bush isn't there any more its him period. Jimmy Carter's economic policy drove this country into the ground and this guy wants to do the same thing and YOU expect a different response? The "steel city" lost the steel under Carter. Expect the rest of the country to lose more jobs. Doing the same failed policies and expecting different reults is the definition of insanity (but insanity is reasonable to assume for followers of obama...his biggest proponents were rich children in college protesting because they did not need to have a job coupled by a following of nuts who if they had a job would not be spending their time marching around many cities ...who has that time...oh yes if you call them out then they try to call you a racist or an idiologue but who are these folks traveling around to all of these cities if not racists and idologues that are just fomenting fights instead of just working ...oh yeah there job is not to work.

[BobB]

Bin-Laden is part and parcel of the taliban. Does this guy have any screws left?

[geauxtohell]

Sooooo much for reaching out to the Taliban! :rolleyes:


Taliban deny reports of negotiations with Afghan government


It could be true, but I would expect the to publically deny that they are talking to the Karzai government.