The Beatitudes Of The Devil.

[hben]

Has anyone ever seen the Beatitudes of the Devil? I recently found it on the internet and thought it was worth sharing. I plan to post it at our church.



THE BEATITUDES OF THE DEVIL

1. Blessed are those who are too tired, too busy, too distracted to spend even an hour once a week with their fellow Christians – they are my best workers.

2. Blessed are those Christians who wait to be asked and expect to be thanked -- I can use them.

3. Blessed are the touchy who stop going to church –for they are my missionaries.

4. Blessed are the trouble makers – for they shall be called my children.

5. Blessed are the complainers –for their complaints are music to my ears.

6. Blessed are those who keep a list of the preachers mistakes -- for they get nothing out of his sermons.

7. Blessed is the church member who expects to be invited to his own church – for he is a part of the problem instead of the solution.

8. Blessed are those who gossip -- for they shall cause strife and divisions that please me.

9. Blessed are those who are easily offended -- for they will soon get angry and quit.

10. Blessed are those who do not give an offering to carry on God’s work – for in stealing from God you steal for me.

11. Blessed is he who professes to love God but hates his brother and sister -- for he shall be with me forever.

12. Blessed are you who, when you hear this, think the preacher is talking about someone other than you– for I’ve got you right where I want you.

[nointed]

hmmm.. makes you look a bit closer at your own walk and shortcomings. interesting. thanks for posting this.

[muskieDon]

This is a general confirmation of the condition of society today. In hindsight I know I would personally have done so many things differently, let's hope we can all open our eyes and change for the good.

[Debbie Shafer]

Those on the Right and those on the left do not want the same America. The Left wants America to look as much like Western European countries as possible. The Left wants Europe's quasi-pacifism, cradel to grave socialism, equalitarianism and secularism in America. The Left wants America to not only have a secular government but to have a secular society.

The Right Wants America to continue to be what it has always been- a Judeo Christian society with a secular government that is not indifferent to faith. The Right believes in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the guiding principles. The Left believes and lives with NO IMMUTABLE STANDARDS.

The bible teaches that when a nation rebels against God, He will first raise up voices to call the nation to repentance. If ignored, God resorts to remedial judgements which increase over time. According to Romans:1. What God does in times of National Rebellion is to lower the hedge of protection around the nation and allow evil to multiply. It certainly has spread in Washington and around the globe.

In our economic tsunami, families, churches, businesses, and ministries are suffering. Even the spread of the gospel is hindered as funds are held back. Russian Premier Kruschev said, "We can't expect the American people to jump from capitalism to Communism but we can assist their leaders by giving them small amounts of Socialism until they awaken one day to find out they have Communism. He also said Communism would take over America without firing a shot!

[flowercopter]

Has anyone ever seen the Beatitudes of the Devil? I recently found it on the internet and thought it was worth sharing. I plan to post it at our church.

6. Blessed are those who keep a list of the preachers mistakes -- for they get nothing out of his sermons.

man, Satan must love guys who nail 95 mistakes up against a chuch door.

I hope the guy who came up with these Beatitudes wasn't a protestant.

[HardHammer]

Those on the Right and those on the left do not want the same America. The Left wants America to look as much like Western European countries as possible. The Left wants Europe's quasi-pacifism, cradel to grave socialism, equalitarianism and secularism in America. The Left wants America to not only have a secular government but to have a secular society.

The Right Wants America to continue to be what it has always been- a Judeo Christian society with a secular government that is not indifferent to faith. The Right believes in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the guiding principles. The Left believes and lives with NO IMMUTABLE STANDARDS.

The bible teaches that when a nation rebels against God, He will first raise up voices to call the nation to repentance. If ignored, God resorts to remedial judgements which increase over time. According to Romans:1. What God does in times of National Rebellion is to lower the hedge of protection around the nation and allow evil to multiply. It certainly has spread in Washington and around the globe.

In our economic tsunami, families, churches, businesses, and ministries are suffering. Even the spread of the gospel is hindered as funds are held back. Russian Premier Kruschev said, "We can't expect the American people to jump from capitalism to Communism but we can assist their leaders by giving them small amounts of Socialism until they awaken one day to find out they have Communism. He also said Communism would take over America without firing a shot!

Deb, I don't think there is alot of difference between the Right and Left anymore, they both want to take more and more of the peoples money in order to make themselves rich, both sides sufffer from lack of ethical and moral living and seek to serve the creation more than the Creator, IMHO.

[Harmonious]

Has anyone ever seen the Beatitudes of the Devil? I recently found it on the internet and thought it was worth sharing. I plan to post it at our church.

It is definitely an interesting approach.

I don't believe that evil is its own, separate entity, but I totally understand the general idea. The idea is that where there is discord, evil is ripe for growing.

If you plan to post this, I am all for it. Nicely done, and thank you for sharing.

[hben]

hmmm.. makes you look a bit closer at your own walk and shortcomings. interesting. thanks for posting this.

You are welcome, nointed, and thank you for your comments. I actually concluded my sermon this morning by reading this. I gave a mild warning before I read it, that it would step on everyone's toes including mine. As I read it, you could have heard a pin drop for the most part with the exception of the one about keeping a list of the preacher's mistakes. That one got a few giggles. :D

[hben]

It is definitely an interesting approach.

I don't believe that evil is its own, separate entity, but I totally understand the general idea. The idea is that where there is discord, evil is ripe for growing.

If you plan to post this, I am all for it. Nicely done, and thank you for sharing.

You are welcome, Harmonious, and thank you for your comments. The point of it was to make us all think and encourage us to do better in our walk with the Lord. :D

[hben]

man, Satan must love guys who nail 95 mistakes up against a chuch door.

I hope the guy who came up with these Beatitudes wasn't a protestant.

Your comments sort of went over my head. Would you mind giving a little more detailed explanation? :D

[hben]

This is a general confirmation of the condition of society today. In hindsight I know I would personally have done so many things differently, let's hope we can all open our eyes and change for the good.

Change for good is always a good thing. ;)

[Harmonious]

Your comments sort of went over my head. Would you mind giving a little more detailed explanation? :D
I'm not Flowercopter, but I have an idea of what he (I think. Sorry if I'm wrong!) means.

Martin Luther wrote his 95 principles and attached it to the Guttenberg Church door, as complaints against the Catholic Church. It was the beginning of Lutheranism, as well as the first bout of successful Protestantism.

If the idea that complaints against the minister's words were the words of the Devil, then it is possible to make the connection that Martin Luther's words were of the Devil... and the nastiness that would come thereby from assuming that Protestantism (of any flavor) is evil...

That's what I think Flowercopter means.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Your comments sort of went over my head. Would you mind giving a little more detailed explanation? :D

It was a backhanded insult cast at Martin Luther. If he were to clarify it any more, I think he'd be at risk of violating the ROR here.

[Harmonious]

It was a backhanded insult cast at Martin Luther. If he were to clarify it any more, I think he'd be at risk of violating the ROR here.

I was just a few seconds faster than you. :D

[Koushi Shinigami]

I was just a few seconds faster than you. :D

Quick Draw McGraw. :razz:

[Harmonious]

Quick Draw McGraw. :razz:
:hug:

[hben]

I'm not Flowercopter, but I have an idea of what he (I think. Sorry if I'm wrong!) means.

Martin Luther wrote his 95 principles and attached it to the Guttenberg Church door, as complaints against the Catholic Church. It was the beginning of Lutheranism, as well as the first bout of successful Protestantism.

If the idea that complaints against the minister's words were the words of the Devil, then it is possible to make the connection that Martin Luther's words were of the Devil... and the nastiness that would come thereby from assuming that Protestantism (of any flavor) is evil...

That's what I think Flowercopter means.

Thanks, Harmonious...it all makes sense now that I "know the rest of the story." :D

[hben]

It was a backhanded insult cast at Martin Luther. If he were to clarify it any more, I think he'd be at risk of violating the ROR here.

I understand now that Harmonious explained the background behind the post. I have always heard that the devil is in the details, so now I unerstand why that is. :cool:

[lwdc]

Deb, I don't think there is alot of difference between the Right and Left anymore, they both want to take more and more of the peoples money in order to make themselves rich, both sides sufffer from lack of ethical and moral living and seek to serve the creation more than the Creator, IMHO.+1

They do not serve the Creator. They serve Mammon. Our Lord stated clearly you can serve one, or you can server the other, but you cannot serve both.

There is no substantive difference between the "Left" and the "Right". They are two puppets, Punch and Judy, controlled by the selfsame Puppet Master. In the larger scheme of things, they are on the same page. They are the left hand and the right hand of the same magician.

[Gem]

Has anyone ever seen the Beatitudes of the Devil? I recently found it on the internet and thought it was worth sharing. I plan to post it at our church.


I never seen or heard of this before.
I like this hben.
I'm going to print it and give it to our pastors wife.
Maybe she will put it on our church wall.
It sure hits a lot of folks where it hurts, I will say that.

hum, wonder how many oneness pentecostals will get up set over it.

[hben]

I never seen or heard of this before.
I like this hben.
I'm going to print it and give it to our pastors wife.
Maybe she will put it on our church wall.
It sure hits a lot of folks where it hurts, I will say that.

hum, wonder how many oneness pentecostals will get up set over it.

In all due respect, I believe it hits many if not most church members in pretty much every denomination. I concluded my sermon this morning by reading it, and I gave them fair warning that it would probably step on toes and offend pretty much everyone across the board...including myself. That is the type of sermon that help us to examine ourselves as the Apostle Paul told us to do. It is not for the purpose of condemnation but for a healthy inspection to make sure that we are who and what we claim to be, hope to be, and to continue striving to be.

[Gem]

In all due respect, I believe it hits many if not most church members in pretty much every denomination. I concluded my sermon this morning by reading it, and I gave them fair warning that it would probably step on toes and offend pretty much everyone across the board...including myself. That is the type of sermon that help us to examine ourselves as the Apostle Paul told us to do. It is not for the purpose of condemnation but for a healthy inspection to make sure that we are who and what we claim to be, hope to be, and to continue striving to be.

Did you get a lot of funny looks from your people afterwards ?
I would say a few, maybe.

[hben]

Did you get a lot of funny looks from your people afterwards ?
I would say a few, maybe.

Let me just say that the group was more somber this morning than usual. The only time I got a response was when I mentioned the one about keeping up with the preacher's mistakes, and I heard several chuckles on that one. I hesitantly made copies to put in the foyer, so anyone who wanted a copy could get one, and I was pleasantly surprized to see how many picked up a copy. One lady asked my permission to email it to those on her regular email list.

[Gem]

Let me just say that the group was more somber this morning than usual. The only time I got a response what when I mentioned the one about keeping up with the preacher's mistakes, and I heard several chuckles on that one. I hesitantly made copies to put in the foyer, so anyone who wanted a copy could get one, and I was pleasantly surprized to see how many picked up a copy. One lady asked my permission to email it to those on her regular email list.


Thats good . maybe you will see some changes in your people after this.

[hben]

Thats good . maybe you will see some changes in your people after this.

Yes, I am for "hope and change". I hope for change...but I hope their change is not the same kind of change I've seen in our economy since President Hope N. Change came to office. I don't know if our church budget could stand that. :doh:

[Gem]

Yes, I am for "hope and change". I hope for change...but I hope their change is not the same kind of change I've seen in our economy since President Hope N. Change came to office. I don't know if our church budget could stand that. :doh:


I understand that.
I know a lot of churches are hurting right now because people quite giving like they did.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Yes, I am for "hope and change". I hope for change...but I hope their change is not the same kind of change I've seen in our economy since President Hope N. Change came to office. I don't know if our church budget could stand that. :doh:

After this term, I'll probably eradicate those two words from my vocab.


Nice list though. With the last item, it pretty much covers everyone.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I understand that.
I know a lot of churches are hurting right now because people quite giving like they did.


Giving less, and they still might be giving a full 10%...

[smyrna]

Giving less, and they still might be giving a full 10%...

Koushi...where have you been? I saw you went skiing the weekend before last but I couldn't tell if you were a skier, snow boarder, snow shoer or a cross country skier? You mentioned each.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Koushi...where have you been? I saw you went skiing the weekend before last but I couldn't tell if you were a skier, snow boarder, snow shoer or a cross country skier? You mentioned each.

Actually, I was the adult supervision. ;)

I went snow shoeing. The kids did the boarding, skiing, etc.

This weekend, just been hangin' round the house.

[smyrna]

Actually, I was the adult supervision. ;)

I went snow shoeing. The kids did the boarding, skiing, etc.

This weekend, just been hangin' round the house.

And I thought that you would be the kamakasi kid all the way down the hill on skiis.

[Gem]

Giving less, and they still might be giving a full 10%...


Could be, I know we give 10% ,and give to mission's as well.

[smyrna]

How do you supervise if they are skiing and you are on snowshoes?

[terri910]

Actually, I was the adult supervision. ;)
Why am I suddenly thankful my sons are grown? :razz:





I keeed!

[hben]

After this term, I'll probably eradicate those two words from my vocab.


Nice list though. With the last item, it pretty much covers everyone.

Yes, it didn't leave anyone out. There was not a soreless toe in the house. :mrgreen:

[Koushi Shinigami]

How do you supervise if they are skiing and you are on snowshoes?

From the bar. ;)


Actually, the kids are old enough, we buddy them up and they watch out for each other.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Why am I suddenly thankful my sons are grown? :razz:





I keeed!

:evil:

[hben]

Actually, I was the adult supervision. ;)

I went snow shoeing. The kids did the boarding, skiing, etc.

This weekend, just been hangin' round the house.

Well, be careful. I just got through watching a documentary on Sonny Bono...sadly, the beat goes on no more. Seriously, it was sad how his life ended in an instant on a day that started out to be a wonderful day of recreation.

[smyrna]

hben...can you write the list in larger print? It is hard to read with this log in my eye.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Well, be careful. I just got through watching a documentary on Sonny Bono...sadly, the beat goes on no more. Seriously, it was sad how his life ended in an instant on a day that started out to be a wonderful day of recreation.

Blunt force trauma is a fairly common skiing malady.

[Koushi Shinigami]

hben...can you write the list in larger print? It is hard to read with this log in my eye.

:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

[hben]

Why am I suddenly thankful my sons are grown? :razz:





I keeed!

:eek: :boohoo: :)) :)) :))

[hben]

hben...can you write the list in larger print? It is hard to read with this log in my eye.

You just need to have "SUPER VISION" to read with a log in your eye. Didn't I read where Koushi is in the business of "supervision"? :razz:

[smyrna]

From the bar. ;)


Actually, the kids are old enough, we buddy them up and they watch out for each other.


Yeah...between those big glass windows and cellphones, I can see where that would work.

[hben]

Blunt force trauma is a fairly common skiing malady.

No joke, so be extra careful walking back to your room from the bar. Falling face first on a concrete floor can be a traumatic experience...even when you are in a loose as a goose drunken state. :whistle:

Oh, and tell your children to be careful out on the slopes as well. :razz:

[Koushi Shinigami]

No joke, so be extra careful walking back to your room from the bar. Falling face first on a concrete floor can be a traumatic experience...even when you are in a loose as a goose drunken state. :whistle:

Oh, and tell your children to be careful out on the slopes as well. :razz:

Gotta stay warm somehow...

[smyrna]

Gotta stay warm somehow...


I recommend the new silk long underwear(Polar Max). I loose my wallet a lot less practicing this method of staying warm.

[hben]

Gotta stay warm somehow...

True, and I bet you having to sit on that cold barstool worrying about your kids being out in all that snow enduring those freezing temperatures would definitely cause you to have trouble staying warm. :razz: :))

[optrader]

Has anyone ever seen the Beatitudes of the Devil? I recently found it on the internet and thought it was worth sharing. I plan to post it at our church.

Brother H,
I believe Christians have become complacent and when I read your list, not just a few of them hit rather close to home. I'm glad to see there are still preachers that will make us look at ourselves, we tend to be rather blind to our own shortcomings. Thanks for sharing this!

[hben]

Brother H,
I believe Christians have become complacent and when I read your list, not just a few of them hit rather close to home. I'm glad to see there are still preachers that will make us look at ourselves, we tend to be rather blind to our own shortcomings. Thanks for sharing this!

You are welcome, and thank you for the encouraging word. :)

[nointed]

You are welcome, nointed, and thank you for your comments. I actually concluded my sermon this morning by reading this. I gave a mild warning before I read it, that it would step on everyone's toes including mine. As I read it, you could have heard a pin drop for the most part with the exception of the one about keeping a list of the preacher's mistakes. That one got a few giggles. :D

Guilty, guilty, guilty.. Thank You for the BLOOD of JESUS... Now I'm no longer filthy as rags..rather washed by the blood and white as snow. :angel::angel:

[TaylorW65]

Brother H,
I believe Christians have become complacent and when I read your list, not just a few of them hit rather close to home. I'm glad to see there are still preachers that will make us look at ourselves, we tend to be rather blind to our own shortcomings. Thanks for sharing this!

When I was going to fundamentalist Churches 25 years ago preachers were still saying how complacent Christians had become.

My point is, I am all for looking inward, I just don't want preachers using guilt tactics to do it. There are better and more effective ways.

Looking at oneself is hard for people to do, I am a therapist, believe me I know, but I think people should look within with more non-judgment and condemnation. If they did that I think it would be more natural.

I am all for looking within to see our faults and areas in which we need to grow. But I also believe we should look with more balance and recognize the good that is within ourselves too.

I don't believe in our total depravity.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I don't believe in our total depravity.

As a therapist, you should consider changing your position on that. There's profit to be made there. ;)

[TaylorW65]

As a therapist, you should consider changing your position on that. There's profit to be made there. ;)
You're probably right. :)

[Koushi Shinigami]

:dance:

[hben]

When I was going to fundamentalist Churches 25 years ago preachers were still saying how complacent Christians had become.

My point is, I am all for looking inward, I just don't want preachers using guilt tactics to do it. There are better and more effective ways.

Looking at oneself is hard for people to do, I am a therapist, believe me I know, but I think people should look within with more non-judgment and condemnation. If they did that I think it would be more natural.

I am all for looking within to see our faults and areas in which we need to grow. But I also believe we should look with more balance and recognize the good that is within ourselves too.

I don't believe in our total depravity.

I think we totally depraved sinners are a dying breed. I am beginning to think I am one of the few left on this forum. I would much rather preach the gospel to a bunch of party animals who have never set foot in a church house than to argue to no avail with a bunch of religious folks who love to spend all their time telling you how the gospel isn't really the gospel.

[TaylorW65]

I think we totally depraved sinners are a dying breed. I am beginning to think I am one of the few left on this forum. I would much rather preach the gospel to a bunch of party animals who have never set foot in a church house than to argue to no avail with a bunch of religious folks who love to spend all their time telling you how the gospel isn't really the gospel.

If sinners are totally depraved how do you account for the good that is in "unsaved" people?

[hben]

If sinners are totally depraved how do you account for the good that is in "unsaved" people?

I simply refer to the Bible, and it says that there is none good. It also says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Compared to Jesus, none of us is good.

[TaylorW65]

I simply refer to the Bible, and it says that there is none good. It also says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Compared to Jesus, none of us is good.

Of course no one is perfect and we all sin, make mistakes and fall short of many things.

But to conclude there is no one good is all or nothing thinking. Common sense observations demonstrates that there are kind and good people in the world. Just because we might not be as good as Jesus doesn't mean we need to completely discount the positive or good that is in ourselves?

I have been playing guitar for 27 years. I'm not too bad but just because I am not as good as Eric Clapton does that mean I'm no good at all?

One of the problems I have with Jesus as depicted in Conservative and fundamentalist Churches is that they have made him out to be a perfect Superman instead of a human being I can relate to.

The Superman Jesus loses all of his humanity. (but I guess that is another subject).

[optrader]

[QUOTE=TaylorW65;50561841]When I was going to fundamentalist Churches 25 years ago preachers were still saying how complacent Christians had become.

It's not a new message, but I do believe the age of political correctness and the once saved always saved doctrine have contributed greatly to Christian complacency. Preachers don't wish to offend because they have a responsibility to bring in tithe money to their conference, that's tough to do when you "guilt" everyone away from your church. Perhaps that is cynical, but I call it as I see it.


My point is, I am all for looking inward, I just don't want preachers using guilt tactics to do it. There are better and more effective ways.

I would agree, if the preacher is singling out you, especially in front of the congregation, and listing your sins, this is inappropriate. If a preacher is reading a list of behaviours or do's and don'ts, to the entire congregation, I would say He is doing what God calls him to do. Self examination is always a little uncomfortable but it's better than being unaware and dead in your sin. Being a Pastor is an awesome responsibility, they are held accountable for their flock.

Looking at oneself is hard for people to do, I am a therapist, believe me I know, but I think people should look within with more non-judgment and condemnation. If they did that I think it would be more natural.

We humans have a unique ability to deceive ourselves and justify our behaviour. Yes, Jesus loves us even in our sin, but His expectation is that when we accept Him, we repent of our sins and let the Holy Spirit transform our characters. Our sins become less and less appealing. If after a time passes, we find ourselves still loving our old sins, I would suggest that looking within ourselves with strong judgement and beginning again in earnest with Christ may be what keeps us from being lost. Praise the Pastor that cares enough to do this rather than worry about offending his flock!

I am all for looking within to see our faults and areas in which we need to grow. But I also believe we should look with more balance and recognize the good that is within ourselves too.

I don't believe in our total depravity.


We absolutely have the capacity to do good. Many people do great things in Jesus name, and for that matter, secular people can do good things for their fellow man too. Remember though, it is not our "goodness" or good works that get us into the kingdom, without faith in the grace of Jesus Christ, our goodness differs not from depravity, we are just as lost...

[Koushi Shinigami]

God made we, human scum, in His own image.

[optrader]

God made we, human scum, in His own image.

God made us in his own image, any scuminess comes from ourselves.

[5thIDSoldier]

man, Satan must love guys who nail 95 mistakes up against a chuch door.

I hope the guy who came up with these Beatitudes wasn't a protestant.

Those weren't "mistakes"; they were heresies. Slight difference there....

[hben]

Of course no one is perfect and we all sin, make mistakes and fall short of many things.

But to conclude there is no one good is all or nothing thinking. Common sense observations demonstrates that there are kind and good people in the world. Just because we might not be as good as Jesus doesn't mean we need to completely discount the positive or good that is in ourselves?

I have been playing guitar for 27 years. I'm not too bad but just because I am not as good as Eric Clapton does that mean I'm no good at all?

One of the problems I have with Jesus as depicted in Conservative and fundamentalist Churches is that they have made him out to be a perfect Superman instead of a human being I can relate to.

The Superman Jesus loses all of his humanity. (but I guess that is another subject).

Do you believe Jesus sinned?

[hben]

God made we, human scum, in His own image.

Actually, God made Adam and Eve in His own image. Then, Adam and Eve sort of remolded themselves with the help of their instructor, Mr. Serpent.

[Harmonious]

Actually, God made Adam and Eve in His own image. Then, Adam and Eve sort of remolded themselves with the help of their instructor, Mr. Serpent.No such thing.

Adam and Eve and all their descendants are STILL in the image of God. Because of the serpent's help, we are mortal, but that doesn't take away the fact that humans have free will and the ability to recognize the Divine.

We are STILL in the image of God.

[RayMan]

No such thing.

Adam and Eve and all their descendants are STILL in the image of God. Because of the serpent's help, we are mortal, but that doesn't take away the fact that humans have free will and the ability to recognize the Divine.

We are STILL in the image of God.



You GO girl!

[TaylorW65]

Do you believe Jesus sinned?

I'll answer your question but you didn't answer any of mine.

This is really about the divinity of Christ. If you accept the belief that Christ was God in the flesh than he could not sin.

But I'm not sure I believe that.

I like how Borg and N.T. Wright distinguishes between the pre-Easter Jesus who was fully human and the post-Easter Jesus who is the divine Christ of scripture.

Let me quote them because they said it much better than I can.

The name Jesus has two referents. On the one hand, Jesus refers to a human figure of the past: Jesus of Nazareth, a Galilean Jew of the first century. On the other hand, in Christian theology, devotion, and worship, the name Jesus also refers to a divine figure of the present: the risen living Christ who is one with God.

These two referents have been variously named in the history of Jesus scholarship. The first is commonly spoken of as "Jesus of Nazareth" or "the Jesus of history" or "the historical Jesus." The second is "the Christ of faith" or "the biblical Jesus" or "the canonical Jesus." My own preferred terminology is "the pre-Easter Jesus" and "post-Easter Jesus."

By the post-Easter Jesus, I mean what Jesus became after his death. More fully, I mean the Jesus of Christian tradition and experience. Both nouns, tradition and experience are equally important. The Jesus of Christian experience, the post-Easter Jesus is an experiential reality, not simply an article of belief.

I thus thought of Jesus as a figure of history as more divine than human. That's because I took it for granted that he was all of the things that the New Testament and the creeds say about him: Son of God, Word of God, Wisdom of God, messiah; very God of very God, begotten before all worlds, of one substance with God, the second person of the Trinity. And I took it for granted that he knew all of these things about himself.

Moreover, I thought of him as having the mind and power of God. It was because he had a divine mind that he knew things and could speak with authority. Because he had divine power, he could do spectacular deeds such as multiplying loaves and walking on water. But note what had happened: I lost the historical Jesus as a credible human being.

I hope you read through all of that because it explains the way I see Jesus which may be different vision of him than you hold.

So in my opinion, the pre-Easter Jesus was a full human being and capable of falling short and missing the mark as the rest of us.

[Koushi Shinigami]

No such thing.

Adam and Eve and all their descendants are STILL in the image of God. Because of the serpent's help, we are mortal, but that doesn't take away the fact that humans have free will and the ability to recognize the Divine.

We are STILL in the image of God.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Constantine the Great]

God made we, human scum, in His own image.

Is God's image scum? If not, can scum overcome God's image?

[Constantine the Great]

No such thing.

Adam and Eve and all their descendants are STILL in the image of God. Because of the serpent's help, we are mortal, but that doesn't take away the fact that humans have free will and the ability to recognize the Divine.

We are STILL in the image of God.

Oh so true. I never understood this human depravity by nature theology.

[Constantine the Great]

I don't believe in our total depravity.


You are not alone.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Is God's image scum? If not, can scum overcome God's image?

Kinda flattens the tires on the 'Total Depravity' car. Doesn't it? ;)

[Constantine the Great]

Kinda flattens the tires on the 'Total Depravity' car. Doesn't it? ;)

Very much so.

[optrader]

Oh so true. I never understood this human depravity by nature theology.


I would say it depends on your definition of depravity. I would not use that particular word either, but I would say we are selfish by nature. I would also say that ours sins are caused by our selfish nature and therefore selfish and sinful nature are synonymous. If sin, and therefore our nature prevents us from getting into the kingdom, meaning we can't get there without asking a higher power to change our nature, does the use of the word "depravity" really matter? Does making the term more palatable or politically correct change the outcome? Granted, depraved has a very negative connotation, but what can be more negative than ending up lost? The word does grab our attention, that's a good place to start...

[hben]

Mk:10:18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

[TaylorW65]

Mk:10:18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That may be in the Bible but my observation in the world is a lot of people, many of them not Christians, do good things and are good people. Sure no one is perfect like God, but I don't think we're talking about perfection, I'm talking about just being good. How do you account for the good that unsaved people do?

My basic belief is God doesn't make junk. When God created everything (including man) the NIV Bible says God saw all that he had made and it was very good. People are his creation and God said his creation was good he never said it was perfect.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That may be in the Bible but my observation in the world is a lot of people, many of them not Christians, do good things and are good people. Sure no one is perfect like God, but I don't think we're talking about perfection, I'm talking about just being good. How do you account for the good that unsaved people do?

My basic belief is God doesn't make junk. When God created everything (including man) the NIV Bible says God saw all that he had made and it was very good. People are his creation and God said his creation was good he never said it was perfect.

Good post.

Besides, if one takes that verse literally, then one has to accept that the bible says Jesus is not good. And if he's not 'good' then I guess he must be evil. :shrug:

[TaylorW65]

Good post.

Besides, if one takes that verse literally, then one has to accept that the bible says Jesus is not good. And if he's not 'good' then I guess he must be evil. :shrug:

Also a good point. If Jesus is God and if Jesus isn't good then God isn't good!

Good grief! :D

[Harmonious]

Good post.

Besides, if one takes that verse literally, then one has to accept that the bible says Jesus is not good. And if he's not 'good' then I guess he must be evil. :shrug:
:silenced:

:whistle:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Also a good point. If Jesus is God and if Jesus isn't good then God isn't good!

Good grief! :D

But then Jesus was also man. So maybe the man part was the part that wasn't good.


But then, the god part would be in the same body as the not good human part. And I thought that the all-good God would not coexist with evil.....

:think:


Maybe we should just put this on the list of passages that a literal translation will not be accepted by people who translate the bible literally.... :whistle:

[TaylorW65]

But then Jesus was also man. So maybe the man part was the part that wasn't good.


But then, the god part would be in the same body as the not good human part. And I thought that the all-good God would not coexist with evil.....

:think:


Maybe we should just put this on the list of passages that a literal translation will not be accepted by people who translate the bible literally.... :whistle:


I wish they would hand out score cards to keep track of what is supposed to be taken literally! :rolleyes:

[Koushi Shinigami]

I wish they would hand out score cards to keep track of what is supposed to be taken literally! :rolleyes:

But it's so obvious. Just read the passage and you'll be able to tell immediately if it's literal or if Jesus was just pulling your leg. ;)

[TaylorW65]

But it's so obvious. Just read the passage and you'll be able to tell immediately if it's literal or if Jesus was just pulling your leg. ;)

:)):))

[Koushi Shinigami]

:)):))

:cool:

[Ron Jon]

If sinners are totally depraved how do you account for the good that is in "unsaved" people?

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Matthew 19:17. See also Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19

Luke 11:11-13

[Koushi Shinigami]

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Matthew 19:17.


I might be wrong. But I think we've recently discussed that very passage..... :cool:

[TaylorW65]

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Matthew 19:17. See also Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19

Luke 11:11-13

We are literally going in circles with this one.

you can read my response to this Biblical passage here.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50719631&postcount=77

[Ron Jon]

No such thing.

Adam and Eve and all their descendants are STILL in the image of God. Because of the serpent's help, we are mortal, but that doesn't take away the fact that humans have free will and the ability to recognize the Divine.

We are STILL in the image of God.Generally speaking, I'd agree. I mean, Adam was made in God's image and Seth was made in Adam's image. To me, that distinction speaks volumes. The "image" Adam had prior to the fall was perfect and after the fall it was imperfect and marred. Unless you believe in an imperfect and marred God, I can't see how our current "image" is a true reflection of God.

[Ron Jon]

I might be wrong. But I think we've recently discussed that very passage..... :cool:
Sorry, I've been playing catch-up. :neutral:

[Ron Jon]

We are literally going in circles with this one.

you can read my response to this Biblical passage here.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50719631&postcount=77Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Sorry, I've been playing catch-up. :neutral:

Wait'll you get to my comment about the Total Depravity car. :D

[Ron Jon]

That may be in the Bible but my observation in the world is a lot of people, many of them not Christians, do good things and are good people. Sure no one is perfect like God, but I don't think we're talking about perfection, I'm talking about just being good. How do you account for the good that unsaved people do?

My basic belief is God doesn't make junk. When God created everything (including man) the NIV Bible says God saw all that he had made and it was very good. People are his creation and God said his creation was good he never said it was perfect.I suppose it's all about perspective. I mean, it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. :)

Besides, when God made Adam, he [Adam] was perfect. But, simply being perfectly made doesn't mean he was incapable of becoming imperfect. Besides Adam (pre-fall) and Jesus, do you know any other perfect human beings?

So, if God "doesn't make junk" (as in imperfections), how do you account for all the birth defects? Are you going to say a newborn who is born without an arm or some other organ is "perfect"? If so, then it is YOU who are redefining that word.

BTW, I don't equate "junk" with imperfection. But I'm not going to deny reality either. Imperfections exist, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[TaylorW65]

I suppose it's all about perspective. I mean, it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. :)

Besides, when God made Adam, he [Adam] was perfect. But, simply being perfectly made doesn't mean he was incapable of becoming imperfect. Besides Adam (pre-fall) and Jesus, do you know any other perfect human beings?

So, if God "doesn't make junk" (as in imperfections), how do you account for all the birth defects? Are you going to say a newborn who is born without an arm or some other organ is "perfect"? If so, then it is YOU who are redefining that word.

BTW, I don't equate "junk" with imperfection. But I'm not going to deny reality either. Imperfections exist, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I don't equate junk with imperfection either! I don't think I ever implied any different. Actually I implied the opposite. We don't have to be perfect to have worth and to be considered good.

Buy the way I don't think there ever has been a perfect human being. I don't consider Adam and Eve to be historical characters. But that is a whole other topic.

Another thing to think about is being good the same as having worth? How can something like Human life, which we all want to protect, have worth if God sees us as filthy rags? It's so incongruent.

Human beings are good, they are not perfect, but that doesn't mean we don't have worth and that we are not good.

In the psalms, writen before the time of Christ, speaks of the righteous man.

Psalm 34:19 A righteous man may have many troubles but the lord delivers him from them all.

Here is a dictionary definition of righteous right⋅eous   [rahy-chuhs] Show IPA
–adjective
1. characterized by uprightness or morality: a righteous observance of the law.
2. morally right or justifiable: righteous indignation.
3. acting in an upright, moral way; virtuous: a righteous and godly person.
4. Slang. absolutely genuine or wonderful: some righteous playing by a jazz great.
–noun
5. the righteous, (used with a plural verb) righteous persons collectively.


here are synonyms and antonyms of the word righteous.

Synonyms:
3. good, honest, fair, right.

Antonyms:
3. evil, wicked.


Human beings are not perfect, but we're still good and each and everyone has worth.

[Koushi Shinigami]

So, if God "doesn't make junk" (as in imperfections), how do you account for all the birth defects? Are you going to say a newborn who is born without an arm or some other organ is "perfect"? If so, then it is YOU who are redefining that word.



Are children with birth defects worth less to God than children without birth defects? Is God concerned about what we consider physical 'perfection'?

[Ron Jon]

I don't equate junk with imperfection either! I don't think I ever implied any different. Actually I implied the opposite. We don't have to be perfect to have worth and to be considered good.

Buy the way I don't think there ever has been a perfect human being. I don't consider Adam and Eve to be historical characters. But that is a whole other topic.

Another thing to think about is being good the same as having worth? How can something like Human life, which we all want to protect, have worth if God sees us as filthy rags? It's so incongruent.

Human beings are good, they are not perfect, but that doesn't mean we don't have worth and that we are not good.

In the psalms, writen before the time of Christ, speaks of the righteous man.

Psalm 34:19 A righteous man may have many troubles but the lord delivers him from them all.

Here is a dictionary definition of righteous

here are synonyms and antonyms of the word righteous.



Human beings are not perfect, but we're still good and each and everyone has worth.I never said we don't have "worth". Likewise, I never said we can't see each other as "good" or "bad," for that matter. It's ALL a matter of PERSPECTIVE.

BTW, the Bible never equates Man with "dirty rags". Not sure where you get that idea from.

[Ron Jon]

Are children with birth defects worth less to God than children without birth defects? Is God concerned about what we consider physical 'perfection'?
Nope, but I was talking about perceptions. Clearly, (to me at least) God's perception is not the same as Man's.

[TaylorW65]

I never said we don't have "worth". Likewise, I never said we can't see each other as "good" or "bad," for that matter. It's ALL a matter of PERSPECTIVE.

If we, being flawed human beings, can recognize and see the worth and goodness of people certainly God can do the same.

BTW, the Bible never equates Man with "dirty rags". Not sure where you get that idea from.

I have had this verse shoved down my throat many times to prove what scum we all are.

Isaiah 64:6 We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags.

[Harmonious]

Generally speaking, I'd agree. I mean, Adam was made in God's image and Seth was made in Adam's image. To me, that distinction speaks volumes. The "image" Adam had prior to the fall was perfect and after the fall it was imperfect and marred. Unless you believe in an imperfect and marred God, I can't see how our current "image" is a true reflection of God.
"Image" isn't a physical representation in this context, as God HAS no physical image.

Therefore, "image" refers to the fact that God and Man have Free Will, for what that is worth, and the ability to understand the concept of the Divine, if not in actuality.

That aspect of Man never changed. So no... Humans are still in God's image. We may be imperfect, but that is a reflection on how God created us. We lack perfection, so that we may pray to God to help us get ever closer to Him.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have had this verse shoved down my throat many times to prove what scum we all are.

Isaiah 64:6 We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags.

In talking with the honorable Jewish posters here, I've learned that evangelicals have grossly misunderstood that passage. And it is a crying shame that has happened.

[Koushi Shinigami]

"Image" isn't a physical representation in this context, as God HAS no physical image.

Therefore, "image" refers to the fact that God and Man have Free Will, for what that is worth, and the ability to understand the concept of the Divine, if not in actuality.

That aspect of Man never changed. So no... Humans are still in God's image. We may be imperfect, but that is a reflection on how God created us. We lack perfection, so that we may pray to God to help us get ever closer to Him.

I agree with that. But I also wonder if the fact that God is spirit, and He gave humans their souls is another facet of us being made in his image.

[TaylorW65]

In talking with the honorable Jewish posters here, I've learned that evangelicals have grossly misunderstood that passage. And it is a crying shame that has happened.

I agree. Can you tell me what the perspective the Jewish posters had on that verse?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I agree. Can you tell me what the perspective the Jewish posters had on that verse?

I can try. Give me a sec.

[Harmonious]

I agree with that. But I also wonder if the fact that God is spirit, and He gave humans their souls is another facet of us being made in his image.That kind of works for me. But God is so much MORE than a spirit...

I think we are agreeing, though.

[Harmonious]

I agree. Can you tell me what the perspective the Jewish posters had on that verse?The idea of that verse is to say that the people OF THAT GENERAL TIME were corrupt, so that the prophet said the people THEN were unworthy, but explained that with repentance, God would save them from a bad situation anyway.

It was not a general commentary about humanity of all time.

[Harmonious]

I can try. Give me a sec.Done.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Done.

Danke. May I also try? Please correct me if I err.


TaylorW65, look at more of the context of that passage.

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.


You being God. Says right there, 1 verse before the filthy rags verse that God meets with those that do righteousness. So how can God regard man's righteousness as filty rags if he meets with those that do righteousness?


You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.


After saying that God meets with the righteous, that 'we' (the people Isaiah is talking about) have sinned. That they have turned away from God. That they have also turned away from doing righteousness as if rightousness itself was filty rags. God doesn't look down on righteous acts with disdain, the people Isaiah was talking about did. And that if those people would turn back to doing their righteousness, that God would indeed meet with them again.

Just a bit different than what you've been told. Isn't it?

[Koushi Shinigami]

That kind of works for me. But God is so much MORE than a spirit...

I think we are agreeing, though.


I think we are agreeing as well.

I wasn't implying that God was simply 'a spirit'. But that whatever makes up God and whatever makes up our souls is probably the same thing.

[TaylorW65]

Danke. May I also try? Please correct me if I err.


TaylorW65, look at more of the context of that passage.

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.


You being God. Says right there, 1 verse before the filthy rags verse that God meets with those that do righteousness. So how can God regard man's righteousness as filty rags if he meets with those that do righteousness?


You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.


After saying that God meets with the righteous, that 'we' (the people Isaiah is talking about) have sinned. That they have turned away from God. That they have also turned away from doing righteousness as if rightousness itself was filty rags. God doesn't look down on righteous acts with disdain, the people Isaiah was talking about did. And that if those people would turn back to doing their righteousness, that God would indeed meet with them again.

Just a bit different than what you've been told. Isn't it?


That is brilliant. I think many fundamentalist doctrines fall by the wayside with that understanding of the scripture.

Thanks!!

[Koushi Shinigami]

That is brilliant.


Your humble servant thanks you for your kind words. :) I must give credit to the honorable Abe for enlightening me to that.



I think many fundamentalist doctrines fall by the wayside with that understanding of the scripture.

Thanks!!

;) Ayup. Pretty soon, that Total Depravity car will be up on blocks and forgotten in the weeds.

You're welcome.

[Harmonious]

Danke. May I also try? Please correct me if I err.


TaylorW65, look at more of the context of that passage.

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.


You being God. Says right there, 1 verse before the filthy rags verse that God meets with those that do righteousness. So how can God regard man's righteousness as filty rags if he meets with those that do righteousness?


You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.


After saying that God meets with the righteous, that 'we' (the people Isaiah is talking about) have sinned. That they have turned away from God. That they have also turned away from doing righteousness as if rightousness itself was filty rags. God doesn't look down on righteous acts with disdain, the people Isaiah was talking about did. And that if those people would turn back to doing their righteousness, that God would indeed meet with them again.

Just a bit different than what you've been told. Isn't it?Nicely done. :hug:

[Harmonious]

I think we are agreeing as well.

I wasn't implying that God was simply 'a spirit'. But that whatever makes up God and whatever makes up our souls is probably the same thing.
:nods:

This is truly a beautiful thing.

[Constantine the Great]

Mk:10:18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.


Does God reside in slums? :think:

[Constantine the Great]

From St. Gregory of Nyssa

1. But it is right that we should not leave this point without consideration, that while the world, great as it is, and its parts, are laid as an elemental foundation for the formation of the universe (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15183a.htm), the creation is, so to say, made offhand by the Divine power, existing at once on His command, while counsel precedes the making of man; and that which is to be is foreshown by the Maker in verbal description, and of what kind it is fitting that it should be, and to what archetype it is fitting that it should bear a likeness, and for what it shall be made, and what its operation shall be when it is made, and of what it shall be the ruler,— all these things the sayingexamines beforehand, so that he has a rank assigned him before his genesis, and possesses rule over the things that are before his coming into being; for it says, God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) said, Let us make (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm) man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and the beasts of the earth, and the fowls of the heaven, and the cattle, and all the earth .
2. O marvellous! a sun is made, and no counsel precedes; a heaven likewise; and to these no single thing in creation is equal. So great a wonder is formed by a word alone, and the saying indicates neither when, nor how, nor any such detail. So too in all particular cases, the aether, the stars, the intermediate air, the sea, the earth, the animals, the plants,— all are brought into being with a word, while only to the making of man does the Maker of all draw near with circumspection, so as to prepare beforehand for him material for his formation, and to liken his form to an archetypal beauty, and, setting before him a mark for which he is to come into being, to make for him a nature appropriate and allied to the operations, and suitable for the object in hand.



I'll post more tonight after work or tomorrow.

[Constantine the Great]

Ok I lied, after this I'll post more later.


V. That man is a likeness of the Divine sovereignty .



1. It is true (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm), indeed, that the Divine beauty is not adorned with any shape or endowment of form, by any beauty of colour, but is contemplated as excellence in unspeakable bliss. As then painters transfer human (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) forms to their pictures by the means of certain colours, laying on their copy the proper and corresponding tints, so that the beauty of the original may be accurately transferred to the likeness, so I would have you understand that our Maker also, painting the portrait to resemble His own beauty, by the addition of virtues (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm), as it were with colours, shows in us His own sovereignty: and manifold and varied are the tints, so to say, by which His true (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm) form is portrayed: not red, or white , or the blending of these, whatever it may be called, nor a touch of black that paints the eyebrow and the eye, and shades, by some combination, the depressions in the figure, and all such arts which the hands of painters contrive, but instead of these, purity, freedom from passion, blessedness, alienation from all evil (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm), and all those attributes of the like kind which help to form in men the likeness of God: with such hues as these did the Maker of His own image mark our nature.
2. And if you were to examine the other points also by which the Divine beauty is expressed, you will find that to them too the likeness in the image which we present is perfectly preserved. The Godhead is mind and word: for in the beginning was the Word and the followers of Paul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) have the mind of Christ which speaks in them : humanity too is not far removed from these: you see in yourself word and understanding, an imitation of the very Mind and Word. Again, God is love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm), and the fount of love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm): for this the great John declares, that love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) is of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), and God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) is love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) 1 John 4:7-8 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo004.htm#verse7): the Fashioner of our nature has made this to be our feature too: for hereby, He says, shall all men (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) know (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) that you are my disciples (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05029a.htm), if you love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) one another :— thus, if this be absent, the whole stamp of the likeness is transformed. The Deity beholds and hears all things, and searches all things out: you too have the power of apprehension of things by means of sight and hearing, and the understanding that inquires into things and searches them out.

[hben]

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.


Does God reside in slums? :think:

Whenever God moves into a slum (sinner), He brightens it up just by His very presence, but sometimes it takes him several years to sweep out all the cobb webs...which is what I would call sanctification.

[Ron Jon]

Isaiah 64:6
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
Hyperbole anyone?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Isaiah 64:6Hyperbole anyone?

Point?

[Ron Jon]

That is brilliant. I think many fundamentalist doctrines fall by the wayside with that understanding of the scripture.

Thanks!!I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Isaiah was calling the covenant people of God (who were in apostasy) to repentance.

"The children of Zion were worshiping false gods (42:17). They were reveling in the dregs of idolatry. So much so, the prophet calls Jerusalem a harlot (1:21) and likens it to Sodom (3:9)."

You still think such actions were "righteous"? That so-called "righteousness" is what Isaiah was comparing to "filthy rags".

[Ron Jon]

Point?That was the point. Obviously, not all "righteousness" is the same. Worshiping an idol may appear "righteous" to some but (according to the Bible) God doesn't view it that way.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Isaiah was calling the covenant people of God (who were in apostasy) to repentance.

"The children of Zion were worshiping false gods (42:17). They were reveling in the dregs of idolatry. So much so, the prophet calls Jerusalem a harlot (1:21) and likens it to Sodom (3:9)."

You still think such actions were "righteous"? That so-called "righteousness" is what Isaiah was comparing to "filthy rags".


Ugh!!!

:wall: :wall: :wall:

No. Worshiping false gods is not righteous. That's the point. Worshiping God is a righteous act. And it is an act that the 'children of Zion' had abandoned 'like filthy rags'. If they were to repent and return to their righteousness (Worshiping God) He would welcome them back and meet with them.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That was the point. Obviously, not all "righteousness" is the same. Worshiping an idol may appear "righteous" to some but (according to the Bible) God doesn't view it that way.


I see. That's not the way I read the passage.

[TaylorW65]

I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Isaiah was calling the covenant people of God (who were in apostasy) to repentance.

"The children of Zion were worshiping false gods (42:17). They were reveling in the dregs of idolatry. So much so, the prophet calls Jerusalem a harlot (1:21) and likens it to Sodom (3:9)."

You still think such actions were "righteous"? That so-called "righteousness" is what Isaiah was comparing to "filthy rags".

But it still doesn't mean we should take what Isaiah wrote an create a doctrine which states all of humanity is not good.

[Ron Jon]

How's this for "righteous" . . .

"A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day."
Is 65:3-5

[Ron Jon]

Ugh!!!

:wall: :wall: :wall:

No. Worshiping false gods is not righteous. That's the point. Worshiping God is a righteous act. And it is an act that the 'children of Zion' had abandoned 'like filthy rags'. If they were to repent and return to their righteousness (Worshiping God) He would welcome them back and meet with them.Duh. It's easy to point back in time and say "see, they were doing it wrong!" But I dare you to say that to a specific group today on this message board. Go ahead, I dare you! :twisted:

[Koushi Shinigami]

MMmmmmmmm Smoked pulled pooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrk!!!! :drool:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Duh. It's easy to point back in time and say "see, they were doing it wrong!" But I dare you to say that to a specific group today on this message board. Go ahead, I dare you! :twisted:

You first. I double dog dare you.

[Ron Jon]

I see. That's not the way I read the passage.And yet, in a previous post you said: "Worshiping false gods is not righteous." Now, all of a sudden you disagree?

[Ron Jon]

But it still doesn't mean we should take what Isaiah wrote an create a doctrine which states all of humanity is not good.By all means shout it from the rooftops man! :boohoo:

[Ron Jon]

You first. I double dog dare you.:)) I'll pass.

[Koushi Shinigami]

And yet, in a previous post you said: "Worshiping false gods is not righteous." Now, all of a sudden you disagree?

Nope.

You are saying that the acts that were being viewed as filty rags, the children of Zion thought were righteous (worshiping false gods). And that GOD was the one looking with disdain on the acts.

I am saying that the acts that were being viewed as filthy rags were in reality truely righteous acts (Worshiping the one true God). And that the children of Zion were the one looking with disdain on the acts.

See the difference?

[Ron Jon]

Nope.

You are saying that the acts that were being viewed as filty rags, the children of Zion thought were righteous (worshiping false gods). And that GOD was the one looking with disdain on the acts.

I am saying that the acts that were being viewed as filthy rags were in reality truely righteous acts (Worshiping the one true God). And that the children of Zion were the one looking with disdain on the acts.

See the difference?Yes, I do. Your post reminded me of a song I haven't heard in a while.

"John has a new way of looking at life

He’s tired of his job of his kids and his wife

Says the secret to his success

Was leaving and finding himself

Now he’s someone to someone else

You say we’ve risen to a new age of truth

You’re calling it a spiritual Godly pursuit

But I say, I say

Chorus…

What if we’ve fallen to the bottom of the well

Thinking we’ve risen to the top of a mountain

What if we’re knocking at the gates of hell

Thinking we’re heaven bound

What if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves

When we should have been thinking of each other

What if we reach up and touch the ground

To find we’re living life upside down

We’ve got a program for saving the Earth

While unborn children are denied their right to birth

One baby blessed, another cursed

Well have we made this world better or worse

Now that the life of a tree comes first

You say we’ve risen to a new age of light

You’re telling me what used to be wrong is now right

But I say, I say

Repeat Chorus"

[Harmonious]

How's this for "righteous" . . .

"A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day."
Is 65:3-5

Ron, is it possible that the people being spoken to had sinned, but that it doesn't refer to all Jewish people at all times, or even all humanity at all times?

[NowHereThis]

Has anyone ever seen the Beatitudes of the Devil? I recently found it on the internet and thought it was worth sharing. I plan to post it at our church.

How about the obvious. Just take what Jesus said to do and turn it upside down like the world does:

"Blessed are the rich; the reign of this world is theirs."

"Blessed are those who make others mourn; and Blessed are those who never mourn themselves."

"Blessed are the violent and the invincible, the proud and the powerful, the domineering and the oppressive, for they shall inherit my domain."

"Blessed are those those who hunger and thirst for injustice."

"Blessed are those who show no mercy- of any kind, to anybody!"

"Blessed are the impure of heart, for they shall not see."

"Blessed are the war-makers, for they shall be called my children."

"Blessed are those who never stand up for justice, who do not rock the boat and thus are comfortable; I congratulate you- you've made it!"

[NowHereThis]

x

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'm not being sarcastic, but are you Christian Or Jewish? I only ask this because, if you're Jewish, you should be reading and quoting from the Old Testament. If you consider yourself Christian, then you should know that Jesus came to bring a new covenant (Hebrews 8:8-13), a new set rules for man which for Christians is the New Testament.

Whom are you addressing?

If it is the OP, then I can tell you, Hben is a Baptist preacher.

[NowHereThis]

My apologies. I don't know what happened. I was intending to respond to Ron Jon's reference to Isaiah 65:3-5.

[RayMan]

My apologies. I don't know what happened. I was intending to respond to Ron Jon's reference to Isaiah 65:3-5.

Ron John is pretty much Baptist also.

[NowHereThis]

How's this for "righteous" . . .

"A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day."
Is 65:3-5

never mind