Florida State University slam dunked by the NCAA

[Safiel]

I was expecting some sanctions from the NCAA, but I was suprised by the harshness of these penalties.

ALL FSU sports are on four year probation from March 6th, 2009 to March 5th, 2013.

Massive scholarship reductions in all sports.

Forfeiture of all games in which ineligible student athletes competed. For the football team, I think this amounts to EVERY win in the last four years.

Penalties against certain individual employees of FSU.

I should note that these victories will also be erased from Bobby Bowden's personal record, meaning Joe Paterno will be the undisputed king of coaches. :)

I think that under the circumstances, Bowden will likely retire, as he can no longer pass Joe Paterno.

I also think that the FSU football team will be a non factor for many, many years to come.

Because so many sports are affected, FSU may even leave Division I entirely. I don't think FSU can recover from this.

[ogibillm]

god i hate bowden.

[Safiel]

god i hate bowden.

Then you should be happy with this decision, as this essentially finishes his career. :)

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I was expecting some sanctions from the NCAA, but I was suprised by the harshness of these penalties.

ALL FSU sports are on four year probation from March 6th, 2009 to March 5th, 2013.

Massive scholarship reductions in all sports.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3958292

Football scholarships reduced from NCAA-max 85 to 83 next season (2009), and 82 in 2010.

Massive?

Forfeiture of all games in which ineligible student athletes competed. For the football team, I think this amounts to EVERY win in the last four years.

I think this gets overturned. They assessed the same penalties to Oklahoma in the Rhett Bomar incident, and Oklahoma didn't self-report that. On appeal, OU kept ALL of their victories, INCLUDING ones in which Bomar was a decisive figure.

Penalties against certain individual employees of FSU.

Deserved.

I should note that these victories will also be erased from Bobby Bowden's personal record, meaning Joe Paterno will be the undisputed king of coaches. :)

I think that under the circumstances, Bowden will likely retire, as he can no longer pass Joe Paterno.

Like I said...I sincerely doubt the vacating of victories will stand up. FSU has already done almost everything to itself that the NCAA imposed, other than the probationary period.

I also think that the FSU football team will be a non factor for many, many years to come.

Because so many sports are affected, FSU may even leave Division I entirely. I don't think FSU can recover from this.

I think you're overestimating how bad this is. The football team is losing, at most, three scholarships in a season. And considering how limited the number of scholarships already are in the other sports (basketball excepted, and FSU men's basketball was not good before this season), I don't think this is going to be quite the death knell for the athletic program in Tallahassee that you do.

There's no post-season sanctions (i.e. basketball still allowed in the ACC and NCAA tournaments, and football still allowed in bowl games). There's no television sanction.

Effectively, the NCAA AGREED with everything FSU did to itself already, and by all accounts the programs haven't suffered much at all (baseball ranked, both basketball teams going to the Dance, and football back on the rise).

[RogerDodger]

Because so many sports are affected, FSU may even leave Division I entirely. I don't think FSU can recover from this.

Overreact much? I am no fan of the Criminoles or Free Shoes U, but the situation is nowhere near this dire.

[Safiel]

I was thinking they lost more by way of being on probation than they actually did. So they are not as bad off as I first thought.

Still. It ain't exactly looking good. It will be impossible for them to do any decent recruiting. Good players will look to other schools and FSU will be stuck with the second tier.

Even if they get through these four years without any other scandal happening, I think it will be a long time before FSU is competetive.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I was thinking they lost more by way of being on probation than they actually did. So they are not as bad off as I first thought.

Still. It ain't exactly looking good. It will be impossible for them to do any decent recruiting. Good players will look to other schools and FSU will be stuck with the second tier.

Even if they get through these four years without any other scandal happening, I think it will be a long time before FSU is competetive.

They were already reducing scholarships this year and still managed to get four top-80 recruits, including the nation's #1 D-line prospect.

This isn't like Miami where they got hammered with a 20-scholarship reduction. They're losing a total of about 7 over the next three years. About all it will affect is overall depth. They might not be able to carry two scholarship kickers or a ninth DB on a full ride. They might actually have to take someone who will go to class because they're on financial aid instead of a scholarship.

If FSU doesn't LEARN from this, then it will hurt them in the long run. But I think their football program and pretty much everything else will be fine.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Overreact much? I am no fan of the Criminoles or Free Shoes U, but the situation is nowhere near this dire.

I don't think Safiel had all of the details when he said that. He saw "four years of probation" and assumed it was going to be near SMU-level damage.

[badkarma]

but Thomas said on Friday that the instant a player cheated in class -- regardless of whether school officials knew about it -- he became ineligible, and if that athlete played in a game, it must be vacated.
This is probably one of the most ridiculous things I have seen in a long time. how many kids are on each team? if just 1 of those that suits up has ever cheated, then whatever games he suited for should be vacated? College football would become a giant pile of teams with lifetime records of 0-0.

ETA: oh, and I was also under the impression that probation meant you could not participate in any bowl games/tournaments/post season activities.

in this case, it seems all they did that will affect the future of the team was take away 3 scholarships and tell FSU that the NCAA was watching them, so they better not screw up again.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

This is probably one of the most ridiculous things I have seen in a long time. how many kids are on each team? if just 1 of those that suits up has ever cheated, then whatever games he suited for should be vacated? College football would become a giant pile of teams with lifetime records of 0-0.

I agree. To the best of my knowledge, FSU's not being charged with "lack of institutional control" here, so to punish them for not knowing that people were cheating without actually levying the charge seems ridiculous.

ETA: oh, and I was also under the impression that probation meant you could not participate in any bowl games/tournaments/post season activities.

in this case, it seems all they did that will affect the future of the team was take away 3 scholarships and tell FSU that the NCAA was watching them, so they better not screw up again.

Probation depends on the offense. Sometimes, the probation will exclude teams from TV and/or post-season, but that's usually saved for recruiting violations and multiple gross offenses. If this happens again at FSU (or at places like Minnesota, who had a similar incident a few years back in their basketball program) they'll get nailed like Miami did in the mid-90's.

[Beccaria]

I should note that these victories will also be erased from Bobby Bowden's personal record, meaning Joe Paterno will be the undisputed king of coaches. :)
:rolleyes:

JoePa is an overrated coach who has a modestly decent coaching record when you average out his wins per year.

[badkarma]

:rolleyes:

JoePa is an overrated coach who has a modestly decent coaching record when you average out his wins per year.
umm...
383-127-3 regular season (.74 winning percentage.)
23-11-1 in bowl games (.65 winning percentage)
5 undefeated seasons
2 national championships

Find me any coach that would not be considered great with those statistics.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

umm...
383-127-3 regular season (.74 winning percentage.)
23-11-1 in bowl games (.65 winning percentage)
5 undefeated seasons
2 national championships

Find me any coach that would not be considered great with those statistics.

Paterno is obviously a great coach. Bowden is his equal, as evidenced by the fact that they're separated by one win.

[badkarma]

Paterno is obviously a great coach. Bowden is his equal, as evidenced by the fact that they're separated by one win.
I am a Penn State fan, and I will freely admit that going strictly by the win/loss numbers Bowden should be considered a better coach. He has been coaching what, 30 years less than JoePa? but even if we grant that as a fact, it does not mean that Paterno is overrated, as the previous poster said.

having said that, I am not a huge college ball fan, and I do not know all the differences between the 2 coaches, the admins they worked for or the philosophy which they worked with. I believe both coaches are deserving of being called great, and that deciding which is better probably falls into the realm of subjectivity.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I am a Penn State fan, and I will freely admit that going strictly by the win/loss numbers Bowden should be considered a better coach. He has been coaching what, 30 years less than JoePa? but even if we grant that as a fact, it does not mean that Paterno is overrated, as the previous poster said.

having said that, I am not a huge college ball fan, and I do not know all the differences between the 2 coaches, the admins they worked for or the philosophy which they worked with. I believe both coaches are deserving of being called great, and that deciding which is better probably falls into the realm of subjectivity.

I actually think they've both been going for 43 years. Bowden just had gigs at Samford and West Virginia before he got to FSU.

About the only things I'd give Bowden as advantages are that he's got 22 conference losses since joining the ACC in '92, while PSU has lost more than double that since they got in the Big Ten.

Also, Bowden has turned FSU into a relevant football power from virtually nothing (less than 30 years before he got there it was a women's college). Penn State was actually a two-time national champ before Paterno got there (although their last title had been 1911).

[badkarma]

hah, I had no idea he coached at WVU. I think I have to hate him just on principal now, since I am also a Pitt fan.

And yes, I was mixing up Paternos total years as a coach at PSU (59) vs his years as a head coach (43).

That makes the debate on who is better based even more so on subjectivity then as well. My personal opinion is both of them are fantastic, and apparently very good fits for the schools they are in. No need to argue about who is better or not.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

hah, I had no idea he coached at WVU. I think I have to hate him just on principal now, since I am also a Pitt fan.

And yes, I was mixing up Paternos total years as a coach at PSU (59) vs his years as a head coach (43).

That makes the debate on who is better based even more so on subjectivity then as well. My personal opinion is both of them are fantastic, and apparently very good fits for the schools they are in. No need to argue about who is better or not.

Absolutely no reason at all.

Besides, at this point they're both basically figureheads who don't coach much at all anyway. They're there for the effect their names have on recruits.