College for All?

[Chucky]

President Obama is considering methods to ensure everyone in America has, or can get, a college education.

Aside from the outrageous cost of such a proposal, what do you see as the possibilities of pulling it off, as well as the pros and cons?


How can we get kids to go to college when they're already dropping out of high school?

Will this "college" education just bring the USA's education level back up to High School?

Will it possibly help employment levels by creating new teaching positions while keeping kids out of the job market longer?

[clarobert]

While the proposal sounds rosey on the surface; aside from the lack of financial reality, there are broader implications that would come into play.

The government cannot run K-12 education with any success. The breakdown in the family unit and moral responsibility has created a generation with no respect, no desire to learn and no sense of responsibility. How will mandating college availability assist in solving any of these problems? It wont, and it will lead to the dumbing down of our institutions of higher education through mandating acceptance and pressure to "just pass them along".

This is a horrible idea. You should desire an education badly enough to work hard to attain it - that is what I did, and I'm better off because I had to work full time while attending college full time as well. I paid my way.

[sgdp]

So to set oneself apart from the rest, you have to go onto a third school? Then that will need to be financed by the government. So you go onto a fourth school?

When does it end?

[Long Island Bob]

- In Germany college is free, and yet the sons and daughters of bankers an lawyers are MUCH more likely to go to college than the sons and daughters of factory workers and waitress moms. In fact, college attendance in Germany follows pretty much the same patterns it does in the USA.

- In California college is nearly free, and yet the sons and daughters of bankers an lawyers are MUCH more likely to go to college than the sons and daughters of factory workers and waitress moms. In fact, college attendance in California follows pretty much the same patterns it does in the rest of USA.

- In Wisconsin college is free, and yet the sons and daughters of bankers an lawyers are MUCH more likely to go to college than the sons and daughters of factory workers and waitress moms. In fact, college attendance in Wisconsin follows pretty much the same patterns it does in the rest of the USA.

‘free college for all” is just another way of saying that the factory dads and waitress moms should pay so the sons and daughter of lawyers and doctors can get something for free. It is a disgusting idea and should be rejected by anyone who spends more than 5 minutes thinking BEFORE making a decision… (sadly spending more than 5 minutes thinking before making a decision is a rare trait on both the left and the right.)

[angelicmadrigal]

Not everyone should be encouraged to go to college which is what I think will happen if it becomes free of charge to all students. Colleges are already full of people who should not be there, they don't need to be the majority. Yeah, that's right, I'm an elitest bastard.

[Chucky]

- ....(in places where ) college is free ... college attendance ... follows pretty much the same patterns ....

...
‘free college for all” is just another way of saying that the factory dads and waitress moms should pay so the sons and daughter of lawyers and doctors can get something for free. It is a disgusting idea and should be rejected by anyone who spends more than 5 minutes thinking BEFORE making a decision… (sadly spending more than 5 minutes thinking before making a decision is a rare trait on both the left and the right.)
Good point - it will be interesting to see how the anti-voucher folks line up on this issue. The NEA certainly wants the additional money it would bring to them, but the reality would be as you say: a subsidy for the folks already doing it. (which is a false argument against pre-college vouchers, but they'd have to spin this version pretty hard to differentiate)

[sgdp]

That's curious. A city near me offers free college for its residents. The majority of those people are not enrolled. :eek:

[soulhunter59]

One factor none of you will consider is the reason why the poor still will not go to college. I get free college but I still haft to work my way through. You see there is no such thing as free college. You still have to pay for books, computers and calculators to get threw as well. My two math books cost $400 each and I had to buy a $120 calculator. So all together my classes were $1,000 this semester.

[HSMaxim]

One factor none of you will consider is the reason why the poor still will not go to college. I get free college but I still haft to work my way threw. You see there is no such thing as free college. You still haft to pay for books, computers and calculators to get threw as well. My two bath books cost $400 each and I had to buy a $120 calculator. So all together my classes were $1,000 this semester.

People have been working their way through school for many many years.

Life is a bitch, get used to it. Only you can do anything about it, I should not be forced to pay taxes so that you can go to school, sorry, but that is the way it is.

If Obama really wants free schooling, let's see him put a cap on salaries for the profs and admin of colleges.
How about telling the profs that they can only make 50K a year, and the rest of their salary will now go toward free education?

I'll tell you why, because the classrooms would be empty of professors.

You should be happy that you are going to school, happy that you have had the chance, not moaning because you have to have a job to do it. Many people never had the chance to continue their schooling, yet here you are, going and complaining about it. A $7 an hour job is all you would need to pay the $1000 it "cost" you.

I doubt you go to class 6 days a week, 10 hours a day. More like 3 days a week, 4 to 6 hours a day.

Please think about it, and take a class on spelling as well, I'm just sayin', seriously it will help you in the long run.

[Talk2Bill]

to help fix the system, they need to look at kids in middle school. Middle schools used to have more trade or vocational based classes. now too much time and too many kids are taught the same stuff in the same way and tested and treated as if they are all college bound.

When a 13 year old struggles in all his classes and has nothing to look forward to...the disengage.

if they had say wood shop and other vocational type classes then more kids would have something that they could be successful at.

but no...they rather force kids to learn how to determine the volume of a cone than teach them something they can use. And WHY? so they can pass a stupid test.

[HSMaxim]

to help fix the system, they need to look at kids in middle school. Middle schools used to have more trade or vocational based classes. now too much time and too many kids are taught the same stuff in the same way and tested and treated as if they are all college bound.

When a 13 year old struggles in all his classes and has nothing to look forward to...the disengage.

if they had say wood shop and other vocational type classes then more kids would have something that they could be successful at.

but no...they rather force kids to learn how to determine the volume of a cone than teach them something they can use. And WHY? so they can pass a stupid test.

Exactly, it seems that teaching kids anything mechanical anymore is frowned upon.

We have to face facts, college is not for everyone.

In high school I was a vocational student, in six years of Jr/Sr high, I learned small engine repair, basic plumbing, basic electrical, welding, ect... I also learned to use hand tools, drill presses, metal and wood lathes, a milling machine, a foundry and how to cast metal objects using sand casting. We learned to mix concrete, how to lay block and brick as well as make steps.

I was not a bad student, I carried all of my regular classes with A's and B's. History and science were my favorites, I struggled with math and had some trouble with lit. I despised Phys Ed and skipped as many classes as I could while still being able to pass.

All of these things I learned helped me in life, and still do. I do not need to call someone to fix my toilet, change an outlet or light switch, I can build a porch or deck my self as well as shingle a roof.
Last summer I built my kids a playhouse using my own plans and saved myself at least $500 compared to buying a prebuilt one.

I can fix my own vehicles, down to rebuilding the engine, although I do not like doing such big jobs. I don't mind changing my own oil, brakes, spark plugs, ect... I also maintain my Harley's and my lawn mower.

College would not have been for me. I always thought that I could have made a good American history teacher, but the hassle of taking classes like math and such made me give it up pretty quick. I did try a semester, it was not for me.


Obama wants everyone to go to college, I hope if this waste of tax money goes through, that they do not forget that we also need people to fix cars and toilets and to build houses and stores.

IMO, all kids should have some sort of vocational ed class every year in high school, if for no other reason than to teach them that checking your own oil in your car is something that can be done at home and does not have to be done at WalMart.

[sgdp]

Shop class teachers are required to chop off their own fingers so they can put it in your face and scare the crap out of you. No wonder vocations are not prime.

[Long Island Bob]

. . .. If Obama really wants free schooling, let's see him put a cap on salaries for the profs and admin of colleges.
How about telling the profs that they can only make 50K a year, and the rest of their salary will now go toward free education?

I'll tell you why, because the classrooms would be empty of professors. . .


Actually I think we are pretty much at the point where the supply curvefor profesors is vertical.

Cut their salaries 30% and we will still have plenty of Literature Phd's looking for work as college professors.

this tends to happen when people are "overpaid."


cut NFL salaries by 30% and NFL players are NOT goinf to seek another profesion.
cut CEO salaries by 30% and CEO's are NOTgoing to seek another profession.
cut college professor salaries by 30% and college professors are NOT going to seek another profession.



300 applicants per job should be a good clue.

[soulhunter59]

People have been working their way threw school for many many years.

Life is a bitch, get used to it. Only you can do anything about it, I should not be forced to pay taxes so that you can go to school, sorry, but that is the way it is.

If Obama really wants free schooling, let's see him put a cap on salaries for the profs and admin of colleges.
How about telling the profs that they can only make 50K a year, and the rest of their salary will now go toward free education?

I'll tell you why, because the classrooms would be empty of professors.

You should be happy that you are going to school, happy that you hav had the chance, not moaning because you have to have a job to do it. Many people never had the chance to continue their schooling, yet here you are, going and complaining about it. A $7 an hour job is all you would need to pay the $1000 it "cost" you.

I doubt you go to class 6 days a week, 10 hours a day. More like 3 days a week, 4 to 6 hours a day.


No I go to class five days a week and three to six hours a day. I was not complaining I was just saying the way it is. Besides just going to class isn't enough to pass your classes. I try to get as much study time as possible. I tend to get some studying done on a slow day at work so I'm good most of the time. I'm just saying that not everyone is able to pay $2000 to $3000 a year for books. I consider myself lucky.

[Greyclouds]

People have been working their way through school for many many years.

Life is a bitch, get used to it. Only you can do anything about it, I should not be forced to pay taxes so that you can go to school, sorry, but that is the way it is.

Well, our economy is shifting towards a system almost devoid of manufacturing capability. We are primarily a provider of services; who better to provide services than highly skilled, educated workers?

Oh, we could get manufacturing back on our soil, but it would require one of two things (if not both!): a) reduction of manufacturing worker wages. b) imposition of tariffs on imports.


If Obama really wants free schooling, let's see him put a cap on salaries for the profs and admin of colleges.
How about telling the profs that they can only make 50K a year, and the rest of their salary will now go toward free education?

I'll tell you why, because the classrooms would be empty of professors.

You are correct, there would be no more professors. You must attend a 4 year college, 4+ years of Graduate school and 1-2 years additional as a post-doc to even be considered for a professorship at a 4 year university. $50k a year, capped, would not be worth such an investment of time and debt.


You should be happy that you are going to school, happy that you have had the chance, not moaning because you have to have a job to do it. Many people never had the chance to continue their schooling, yet here you are, going and complaining about it. A $7 an hour job is all you would need to pay the $1000 it "cost" you.

I doubt you go to class 6 days a week, 10 hours a day. More like 3 days a week, 4 to 6 hours a day.

Please think about it, and take a class on spelling as well, I'm just sayin', seriously it will help you in the long run.

Going to class is only part of a college education. Remember, there can be extensive homework depending on your major. As an undergraduate Biology major, I had to study at least two hours every week PER class (I took 5 every semester: 15 hours right there) with an additional hour a week, per class, on homework, 10 hours in mandatory assigned lab classes, and 16 more hours every week spent in the research lab.

I'm not saying that its the hardest job, but it's certainly not the cakewalk that you make it out to be.

[monkeymom]

One factor none of you will consider is the reason why the poor still will not go to college. I get free college but I still haft to work my way through. You see there is no such thing as free college. You still have to pay for books, computers and calculators to get threw as well. My two bath books cost $400 each and I had to buy a $120 calculator. So all together my classes were $1,000 this semester.

You won't get any sympathy from me. Try working full-time, raising four kids, and going to college full-time - um, and maintaining a 3.75 GPA - then get back to me.

And when you look into the spelling class that Maxim suggested, you might also want to check into a keyboarding class - never heard of a "bath" class (I am assuming that is just a typo and that you actually do know how to spell math, if you are spending several hundred dollars for books for the class).

Edit to add - I see that you clarified in a later post that you were just making a point about it being difficult for people who have to work their way through college - so first of all, congrats for working so hard and doing it for yourself. But again, if a "poor" person really wants to get through college, they will find a way. My kids and I were well below the poverty line (based on where we live), and it was damn hard at times (especially when there were 4 of us in college at the same time) - but it can be done - people just have to be willing to make the sacrifices to get there.

Good luck to you with your studies!

[Blindeye101]

Remember you do NOT have to get it done in 4 years.

Some people limit the number of classes they take and just go longer.

[Old_Mil]

President Obama is considering methods to ensure everyone in America has, or can get, a college education.

Given that he's increasing Pell grants at the same time he's cutting back financial aid, it's clear that he doesn't want *everyone* to have a free college education. His moves are designed to make it more difficult for middle class kids to afford a degree, while making it easier for "the poor".

[soulhunter59]

You won't get any sympathy from me. Try working full-time, raising four kids, and going to college full-time - um, and maintaining a 3.75 GPA - then get back to me.

And when you look into the spelling class that Maxim suggested, you might also want to check into a keyboarding class - never heard of a "bath" class (I am assuming that is just a typo and that you actually do know how to spell math, if you are spending several hundred dollars for books for the class).

Edit to add - I see that you clarified in a later post that you were just making a point about it being difficult for people who have to work their way through college - so first of all, congrats for working so hard and doing it for yourself. But again, if a "poor" person really wants to get through college, they will find a way. My kids and I were well below the poverty line (based on where we live), and it was damn hard at times (especially when there were 4 of us in college at the same time) - but it can be done - people just have to be willing to make the sacrifices to get there.

Good luck to you with your studies!

Well I don't do it all on my own because when I came back to New Orleans a year after Katrina I could not find a place to live. But I pay a part of the house payments so I don't feel as bad as I did.

[ChrisSpencer]

President Obama is considering methods to ensure everyone in America has, or can get, a college education.

Aside from the outrageous cost of such a proposal, what do you see as the possibilities of pulling it off, as well as the pros and cons?


How can we get kids to go to college when they're already dropping out of high school?

Will this "college" education just bring the USA's education level back up to High School?

Will it possibly help employment levels by creating new teaching positions while keeping kids out of the job market longer?


Obama has never had to apply for a corporate job and experience the frustration of being "over qualified" since he's been a community organiser and all that nonsense his whole life.

A country full of college graduates diminishes the value of a college degree. A PhD and a Doctorate, J.D., etc, would be essentially what a college degree is today in the marketplace.

What this does is makes the debt to income ratio of the average American significantly higher. I'm projecting having over $250,000 in student loan debt after finishing my Ph.D. in the next many... many... years. A nation filled with debt is a nation with a much higher systemic risk of defaulting on debt. Credit cycles would revolve with higher frequencies, creating a more unstable marketplace.

[Alone In Liberalville]

If the colleges are told they "succeed" when a large percentage of their incoming freshmen end up graduating within 5 years, and are given no other real measure, it will mean downgrading collegiate standards. If the colleges are not allowed to restrict admission to those actually ready, then are denied money in their budgets when they have a low retention rate, they will, in self-defense, lower standards for graduation. Otherwise, they will go bankrupt.

Any yes, low income students do still work, even with free tuition and books. That is a fact of life, and they probably always will. We need to help low income students learn money management if we want them to be able to strike the balance between being students and staying alive -higher income students too, if we don't want them after graduation to have great paying jobs and still no savings. They may end up with 3000 sq foot homes, nice cars, and huge loans if we don't. Sign of the times.

[rabbieric]

Are you suggesting it's a good idea to keep a significant part of the population uneducated so we will have people to work in McDonald's (not that you should ever eat there)?

[Zanger]

to help fix the system, they need to look at kids in middle school. Middle schools used to have more trade or vocational based classes. now too much time and too many kids are taught the same stuff in the same way and tested and treated as if they are all college bound.

When a 13 year old struggles in all his classes and has nothing to look forward to...the disengage.

if they had say wood shop and other vocational type classes then more kids would have something that they could be successful at.

but no...they rather force kids to learn how to determine the volume of a cone than teach them something they can use. And WHY? so they can pass a stupid test.

Knowing how to find the volume of a cone isn't useful? That's the stupidest thing I've heard someone say.

[Zanger]

Are you suggesting it's a good idea to keep a significant part of the population uneducated so we will have people to work in McDonald's (not that you should ever eat there)?

No you tard, they are suggesting that it's pointless to teach things to people when they aren't going to use it, ever. For example, there isn't really any reason a scientist should be forced to take general history classes or poetry classes. Likewise, there isn't a need for a waitress to take a class like calculus or english composition.

[Liberal Linguist]

I am liberal. I like the idea of the two track systems employed by many other nations. I am sorry but some people are not right for college, and its a waste of resources. Maybe I am an elitist in that sense, but its my feeling.

[archangelo]

In the U.S., you have to go to college if you want an almost decent high school education!

[PhantomPholly]

- In Germany college is free, and yet the sons and daughters of bankers an lawyers are MUCH more likely to go to college than the sons and daughters of factory workers and waitress moms. In fact, college attendance in Germany follows pretty much the same patterns it does in the USA.

Actually, this paints a pretty inaccurate picture of the German education system. By the time children get to our equivalent of Middle School they are already sorted by level of accomplishment - one group going towards a trade-school oriented type of education, the other oriented towards University.

Even when "college is free," societies understand that it is generally a waste of good resources to invest a college education on everyone.

‘free college for all” is just another way of saying that the factory dads and waitress moms should pay so the sons and daughter of lawyers and doctors can get something for free. It is a disgusting idea and should be rejected by anyone who spends more than 5 minutes thinking BEFORE making a decision… (sadly spending more than 5 minutes thinking before making a decision is a rare trait on both the left and the right.)

I agree with your conclusion that "free for all" is a bad idea, although not with your reasons. In a system like Germany's, talented kids really do get encouraged to go on to college irrespective of their parent's finances. While it may be true that MORE rich kids end up there than poor kids for the simple reasons that rich kids are taught to expect it and will receive additional financial support for miscellaneous expenses, nonetheless it is available to anyone with the ambition and skill to make use of it.

Where I have problems with the idea (of "free college for everyone") is from the very point we start saying that "we should send every kid to college." To that I would say that that is like pushing spaghetti through a straw - pointless and impossible. Some kids lack the talent to make use of the additional education; others lack the ambition. In either case, it is simply a waste of resources and everyone's time to try to dumb down college as we have the grade schools all in the name of "fairness."

[rgpizza]

It would not be difficult to make college free for everyone who wanted a higher education, A majority of other countries do so. The problem is not having to work to pay your way through college, that is entirely posible. The problem comes in where many young people don't get to go to college, not because they cant work to pay for college but because it becomes to difficult to pay for and find time to go when you not only have to pay for college with a $7.00 an hour job but you also have to pay for rent, electric, phone, car, car insurance, gas, food.

I have read several posts where people were bragging how they worked their way through college. Working your way through college is easy enough to do when you only have to pay for college. The majority of kids working their way through college are working part time, some full time but they continue to live with their parents whicle going to school. When you don't have to worry about basic neccesities food, shelter and clothing then working your way through college is no big deal.

I love hearing middle class people who have no idea what its like to be poor, brag how they had to work their way through college meanwhile living under their parents roof, eating their parents food, having insurance thats under their parents name and a phone thats under their parents family plan.

Everyone should be able to get a fair start in life and then how far they go should be up to how hard they want to work for what they want.

Why do you think the majority of poor families stay poor generation after generation while middle and upper middle class families continue to accumialate wealth? Because the middle and upper middle families have choices and opportunites that the poor do not.

It is much more likley someone will continue on to college if they have the opporunity to go and focus on schoolwork when school is all they have to worry about, or at the most having to work to pay for tuition and books.

It is almost impossible to be able to attend college when you have to not only pay for school but also for rent, utilities, gas, food, car, phone just the basic neccesities on a 7 or 8 dollar an hour job. and a kid right out of highschool is probablly not going to find a job that pays them much higher thn that.

Their are many middle class kids that would not of gone on to finish college if they did not have the opportunites that were provided for them and their are many poor kids that would of been able to attend college if their basic needs were met by their parents.

People from middle class backgrounds take things like having a roof over your head for granted and thats why thwy post how they worked through school and did it! I am sure they did but I am also sure 99 percent of them also lived with their parent's while working to pay for school. And not having additional living expenses besides tuition makes all the difference in the world.

[rgpizza]

Capitalism would be great if what you said was true but the problem with capitalism is the majority of people who are wealthy did not become so through their own initiative and hard work. They became ealthy because they were BORN INTO a middle class or above middle class famiy and were provided with the opportunities and chances to suceed. When they graduated highschool they were able to and expected to go onto college. A college that was PAID for by their parent's. asnd if by some chance some of the middle class kids did have to work to help pay for college it was part-time work. It is a whole different worl when you have to work summers and part time during school to help pay for college yet continue to live with your parents theough college. and use your parents car or have your car covered on your parent's insurance and have a phone thats covered under your families phone plan. Its so annoying when the few middle class kids who had to work part time to help pay for their education brag an say " I worked my way through school !" Maybe some did work through college BUT WHILE LIVING WITH THEIR PARENTS AND HAVING NO OTHER BILLS. It is not difficult if someone ha to work to help pay for college but it is nea impossible for a kid out of highschool to go onto a higher education when they have to pay for tuition, books, rent, electric, car insurance, phone, gas, food and clothing. Just the basic necesities on a 7 or 8 dollar job and someone right out of highschool is not going to be able to find a job that pays much more then that. This is why middle class families and above are able to accumalate wealth while poor families stay poor. Because poor families lack the minimum opportunites that need to be avaliable in order to suceed.

All these kids from upper class families that go off to college and complain about the proggressive tax system and make little qoutes reguarding capatilism being equal to hardwork are simply repeating what they have heard their parents say. They have no idea what hard work is because they are the ones getting a free ride. The majority are not paying for college or their car insurance or their phone bills, their parents are. They are against socalism yet they are living it. How can they complain about poor kids wanting to be able to go to college for free when they are going to college for free. Doesn't matter that their parents are the ons paying. It is still one adult paying for another adult. SO when 75 percent of these republicans went to a college that their parents paid for they were getting A FREE RIDE!

Everyone should have to work hard to succed but everyone should also be able to at least have a fair start in life. You take all of the kids who are away at a college being paid for by their parents and pull them out of that college and tell them okay
guys, from this day foward you are going to start your life over and without a dollar to your name you need to figure out how to get a job and pay for college, books, rent, car insurance, phone, electric, clothes and food because your parents will not be allowed to help you anymore. You will need to acive whatever you are going to acheive in life without any help from anybody and as of now figure out how to pay for all your living expenses, your college and make something out of yourself while working full-time at a minimum wage job. I gaurantee less then 5 percent of all these kids that were just stripped of all their opportunites will be able to make it on their own now that they no longer have any help from anyone.

Now lets take the hundreds of thousands of kids who had been living in the situation that we just put the middle class and above kids in. The situation where they have to pay everything for themselves and lets put them in college with all their neccessities provided for them and lets see how many succeed compared to the one's that now have to live without any help at all.

My whole point was it would be great if capatilism really was about hard work, but it's not. it's about being born into a family that is going to at the very least provide you with enough opportunites to have a fair chance to make something of yourself if you want to work for it. It's easy to feel as through capatilism is all about hard work when you were born into a familiy that is going to provide you with the opportunites needed to suceed if you do work hard.

On the other hand for the people born into poor families it is very hard to break the cycle. most families continue to be poor generation after generation because they lack the minimum opportunities to give their children that one needs in order to be given the chance to suceed through hard work.

Why shouldn't poor children have the opportunity to attend college for free? Wealthy children attend college for free. they don't pay for it their parents do.

Every child should have access to two things. Universal health care. It is so unfair that poor children born into poverty through no fault of their own are unable to receive yearly check ups and medical care because they lack health insurance. It's sick how so many children with cancer and other diseases have to live untrated and their lives end so young because they are without health insurance.

Everyone should be entitled to a college education if they want it so that everyone can at the very least get a fair start at life. a fair chance to be able to suceed. It is just to much for republicans to expect poor kids out of highschool to be able to pay for college and all their living expenses when they wouldn't expect their own kids to be able to do that.

[pumpkin escobar]

College is a waste of money. All those careers that students prepare for are outsourced to India. You name it, computers, engineering, science, accounting, finance . . . All of it is being done overseas by people who work for below minimum wage.

If you care about your child send them to a good trade school.
:)) I hope you're kidding with this....Otherwise, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[barik]

A country full of college graduates diminishes the value of a college degree. A PhD and a Doctorate, J.D., etc, would be essentially what a college degree is today in the marketplace.


It is not required that everyone goes to college. This simply ensures that those who want to go to college can do so to pull themselves up in the world.

[countmein]

It would not be difficult to make college free for everyone who wanted a higher education, A majority of other countries do so. The problem is not having to work to pay your way through college, that is entirely posible. The problem comes in where many young people don't get to go to college, not because they cant work to pay for college but because it becomes to difficult to pay for and find time to go when you not only have to pay for college with a $7.00 an hour job but you also have to pay for rent, electric, phone, car, car insurance, gas, food.

I have read several posts where people were bragging how they worked their way through college. Working your way through college is easy enough to do when you only have to pay for college. The majority of kids working their way through college are working part time, some full time but they continue to live with their parents whicle going to school. When you don't have to worry about basic neccesities food, shelter and clothing then working your way through college is no big deal.

I love hearing middle class people who have no idea what its like to be poor, brag how they had to work their way through college meanwhile living under their parents roof, eating their parents food, having insurance thats under their parents name and a phone thats under their parents family plan.

Everyone should be able to get a fair start in life and then how far they go should be up to how hard they want to work for what they want.

Why do you think the majority of poor families stay poor generation after generation while middle and upper middle class families continue to accumialate wealth? Because the middle and upper middle families have choices and opportunites that the poor do not.

It is much more likley someone will continue on to college if they have the opporunity to go and focus on schoolwork when school is all they have to worry about, or at the most having to work to pay for tuition and books.

It is almost impossible to be able to attend college when you have to not only pay for school but also for rent, utilities, gas, food, car, phone just the basic neccesities on a 7 or 8 dollar an hour job. and a kid right out of highschool is probablly not going to find a job that pays them much higher thn that.

Their are many middle class kids that would not of gone on to finish college if they did not have the opportunites that were provided for them and their are many poor kids that would of been able to attend college if their basic needs were met by their parents.

People from middle class backgrounds take things like having a roof over your head for granted and thats why thwy post how they worked through school and did it! I am sure they did but I am also sure 99 percent of them also lived with their parent's while working to pay for school. And not having additional living expenses besides tuition makes all the difference in the world.

Ah, lets see....I must be the 1% you are talking about.
When I attended college full-time, I lived off campus in my own place. I paid for college/books and rent and my car payment and insurance and power bill and phone bill and water bill and groceries and gas and medical expenses out of my earnings. I worked two part time jobs, cashier at a grocery store and bartender, totaling over 65 hours a week. I worked every day except Wednesdays. On Tues and Thursdays I worked at the store from 4:30 to 10:30 at night. I opened the store on Saturday and Sundays at 7/8 a.m. and worked 9 hours (paid for 8 with an hour lunch breadk). On Saturday and Sunday I tended bar from 7 p.m. until 2:30 a.m. and worked there on Monday and Fridays from 3 p.m. until 2:30 a.m. There were times that I even got called in to cover someone else's shift on Wednesdays. Was it easy? No. Can you do it? Yes, if you want it bad enough.

And trust me, I came from a WELL BELOW the poverty line family. I was and still am the only one from my blood line, both sides of my family, who has earned a Bachelor's degree. My mother and her siblings didn't even graduate from high school, but later went on to get a GED. Even without a BA, most of my cousins have improved their own lives. Oldest has been a hair stylist for over 30 years and makes a very good living. She has also owned a number of rental properties in the past. Her sister (who just hated school) earned an Associate's degree in Early Childhood and owned and operated a sucessful/profitable daycare for a number of years. Another cousin is the manager of a parts manufacuring plant. His sister is also a hair stylists, another is a stay-at-home mom whose husband earns a good living. I have a BA in Business and am now semi-retired so I can be at home with my children. At one time, I owned and operated a sucessful auditing company. I made very good money. We all own our own homes, some of us more than one.
Bottom line, if you want an education bad enough, you will find a way to make it work. It may not be easy, but it is doable.

Why do I think most poor people stay poor and uneducated? Because they do not put enough emphasis on hard work and getting an education. They have an opportunity to go to high school FREE. Some don't even take advantage of that. They have an opportunity to work hard and get good grades. Some don't take advantage of that. There are numerous scholarships out there, especially for poor people and minorities. Some don't take advantage of that, nor do they want to take the time and effort to even look for them. There is always the military to earn money for college. Obviously some don't take advantage of that. There are numerous options out there for the poor to get a college education, some more so than the middle class, but they are not will to do what is necessary to obtain it. They want their education, like everything else, handed to them on a silver platter with little or no effort.

[rgpizza]

Ah, lets see....I must be the 1% you are talking about.
When I attended college full-time, I lived off campus in my own place. I paid for college/books and rent and my car payment and insurance and power bill and phone bill and water bill and groceries and gas and medical expenses out of my earnings. I worked two part time jobs, cashier at a grocery store and bartender, totaling over 65 hours a week. I worked every day except Wednesdays. On Tues and Thursdays I worked at the store from 4:30 to 10:30 at night. I opened the store on Saturday and Sundays at 7/8 a.m. and worked 9 hours (paid for 8 with an hour lunch breadk). On Saturday and Sunday I tended bar from 7 p.m. until 2:30 a.m. and worked there on Monday and Fridays from 3 p.m. until 2:30 a.m. There were times that I even got called in to cover someone else's shift on Wednesdays. Was it easy? No. Can you do it? Yes, if you want it bad enough.

And trust me, I came from a WELL BELOW the poverty line family. I was and still am the only one from my blood line, both sides of my family, who has earned a Bachelor's degree. My mother and her siblings didn't even graduate from high school, but later went on to get a GED. Even without a BA, most of my cousins have improved their own lives. Oldest has been a hair stylist for over 30 years and makes a very good living. She has also owned a number of rental properties in the past. Her sister (who just hated school) earned an Associate's degree in Early Childhood and owned and operated a sucessful/profitable daycare for a number of years. Another cousin is the manager of a parts manufacuring plant. His sister is also a hair stylists, another is a stay-at-home mom whose husband earns a good living. I have a BA in Business and am now semi-retired so I can be at home with my children. At one time, I owned and operated a sucessful auditing company. I made very good money. We all own our own homes, some of us more than one.
Bottom line, if you want an education bad enough, you will find a way to make it work. It may not be easy, but it is doable.

Why do I think most poor people stay poor and uneducated? Because they do not put enough emphasis on hard work and getting an education. They have an opportunity to go to high school FREE. Some don't even take advantage of that. They have an opportunity to work hard and get good grades. Some don't take advantage of that. There are numerous scholarships out there, especially for poor people and minorities. Some don't take advantage of that, nor do they want to take the time and effort to even look for them. There is always the military to earn money for college. Obviously some don't take advantage of that. There are numerous options out there for the poor to get a college education, some more so than the middle class, but they are not will to do what is necessary to obtain it. They want their education, like everything else, handed to them on a silver platter with little or no effort.

If your semi- retired then you must of gone to college in the 60's or 70's. because in the 1970's up until the early 1980's it would be doable to doable what you mentioned above. What I forgot to mention is about 80% of the 1% went to college in the 60's, 70's and early 80's when the dollar value was worth much more. In 1970 someone could easily own a house on a minimum wage income. Many families that had only one parent working was able to do so on minimum wage. However inflation is another reason that in this day and age it is near impossibe. in 1970 a 1 bedroom apartment in a decent neighboerhood ran about 175 a month in New York! A one bedrom apartment in New York today would cost a student a 1000 dollars in a decent neighboorhod. I live in Florida and my friends grandparents showed me classified clippings from 1971 and the avareage 1 bedroom apartment was $75.00 a month compared to $650 today. So if you went to college in the 70's when the dollar was worth 4 times more then it was today then yes what you said would be much more feasible.


An yes their are scholarships and highschool is free but many children from poorer neighborhoods have to look after their younger brothers and sisters. They go to bad schools that do not teach them and do not have parents or teachers to help educate them or explain to them all their different options. A kid does not turn 18 and go from being a kid to a self sufficent adult overnight and growing up without emotional support from their parents and community will both stunt their mental growth and severly limit their opportunites.

How ever my mani point remains that when you went to college the dollar value was 4 times what it is worth now. in 1960 and 1970 it would of been possible to support yourself and pay for college and on a minimum wage job with the dollar being what it's worth now that's just near impossible.

[countmein]

Umm.....wrong. I just turned 40 in January. I graduated with my BA in 1992. My hubby and I chose for me to give up working full-time so I could stay at home with our children, ages 15, 5, 3, 2.

My rent plus everything else totaled around $1000 a month, (plus school expenses) which is average for the area. Of course I lived in a studio appartment above a business, nothing fancy. It was tight and I learned to live off ramon noodles and mac-n-cheese. ;)

As far as the social/emotional aspects that you speak of, I had the childhood from hell. My mom was the town tramp, I was molested by one of my NUMEROUS stepfathers, I was basicly told that I would amount to nothing. College in my future, are you kidding me? No one in my family had gone to college, so why did I think I was better than any of them? My mother was hell bent on making sure that I would fail and never do any better than she did.

18 to adult is not that big of a leap. I went from being 12 to being an adult. I was fixing/cooking my own meals by the time I was 8, getting myself up and ready for the school bus by that time, and doing my own laundry so I would at least have clean clothes to wear to school by the time I was 9 or 10. I was taking care of my mom by that time also. I started working and paying taxes by the time I was 11. There was no emotional support at home or from "the community". I did have an aunt that cared, but her hands were tied most of the time so there was not much she could do to help me. Nobody helped me with my school work, I just studied my ass off. No one told me of my options for college. I was determined to go, so I went to a couple of the local colleges and talked with their admissions department and filled out the applications. By the way, most colleges and especially community colleges will tell you everything you need to know to get in and how to get money to go. Oh ya, and while I was in college I was raped at the age of 19 and for 2 of those 4 years I was in college, I lived with and married my ex, who didn't work and didn't help out at all around the house (which meant on top of school and work, I did all the cooking, laundry, cleaning and took care of the finances) and whose favorite hobby was knocking the crap out of me after a few beers.

I guess the main difference between me and those you rally for is that I CHOSE to be a survivor, not a victim. I CHOSE to overcome my childhood and make something more of myself, not only for me, but also for the children that came later. Those who do not go to college CHOOSE not to go. Like I said, if you WANT it bad enough, you can do it. Go in the military, work and take night classes and stretch it out over a longer period of time if you have to, but it can be done.

[rgpizza]

Umm.....wrong. I just turned 40 in January. I graduated with my BA in 1992. My hubby and I chose for me to give up working full-time so I could stay at home with our children, ages 15, 5, 3, 2.

My rent plus everything else totaled around $1000 a month, (plus school expenses) which is average for the area. Of course I lived in a studio appartment above a business, nothing fancy. It was tight and I learned to live off ramon noodles and mac-n-cheese. ;)

As far as the social/emotional aspects that you speak of, I had the childhood from hell. My mom was the town tramp, I was molested by one of my NUMEROUS stepfathers, I was basicly told that I would amount to nothing. College in my future, are you kidding me? No one in my family had gone to college, so why did I think I was better than any of them? My mother was hell bent on making sure that I would fail and never do any better than she did.

18 to adult is not that big of a leap. I went from being 12 to being an adult. I was fixing/cooking my own meals by the time I was 8, getting myself up and ready for the school bus by that time, and doing my own laundry so I would at least have clean clothes to wear to school by the time I was 9 or 10. I was taking care of my mom by that time also. I started working and paying taxes by the time I was 11. There was no emotional support at home or from "the community". I did have an aunt that cared, but her hands were tied most of the time so there was not much she could do to help me. Nobody helped me with my school work, I just studied my ass off. No one told me of my options for college. I was determined to go, so I went to a couple of the local colleges and talked with their admissions department and filled out the applications. By the way, most colleges and especially community colleges will tell you everything you need to know to get in and how to get money to go. Oh ya, and while I was in college I was raped at the age of 19 and for 2 of those 4 years I was in college, I lived with and married my ex, who didn't work and didn't help out at all around the house (which meant on top of school and work, I did all the cooking, laundry, cleaning and took care of the finances) and whose favorite hobby was knocking the crap out of me after a few beers.

I guess the main difference between me and those you rally for is that I CHOSE to be a survivor, not a victim. I CHOSE to overcome my childhood and make something more of myself, not only for me, but also for the children that came later. Those who do not go to college CHOOSE not to go. Like I said, if you WANT it bad enough, you can do it. Go in the military, work and take night classes and stretch it out over a longer period of time if you have to, but it can be done.

It really stinks what you went through but if you were able to pay rent of a thousand dollars a month that meant you were making well over minimum wage. Minimum wage in California was 4.25 in 1992 which meant after taxes your total income would of been 600 a month. Most 18 years olds will not be able to find a job where they make more then minimum wage and in 1992 the dollar was worth one and a half times what it's worth now.

It's great you did it and that why I said 1 percent. If you take most of the kids out of college that are being supported by their parents most of them would not be able to make it.

Their are many, many kids that would be able to make something of themselves if they were given the opportunites of the middle class.

Each and every person is different. Most people would not be able to work 60 hours a week an go to school, they just would not be able to pass. Most uneducated 18 yr olds are not going to have the mental capacity to handle that, most well educateded kids wouldn't be able to either.

Just because you were able to does not mean everybody would be able to. Their are also people that win the nobel prize at 18 and score 1600 on their SATs at 16. Their are kids that have hit records out at 15. Did you score 1600 on sats? did you not win the noble prize? Did you have a hit record at 15? No you did not and just because a few people were able to does not mean that you would be able to.

Just because you had it rough does not mean that other kids that didn't deserve what they went through should have it rough just because you did.
Are you going to throw your kids to the wolves once they turn 18? or are you going tohelp them finance their way through college?

And as far as finacial aid and scholarships go many kids fall through the cracks because they do work. they work and their tax return together with their parents tax returns show that their family made to much money and these really poor kids don't get the grant because they did wok and have a certain amount of income coming in.
Meanwhile the middle class kid across twon ends up getting a full pell grant because he/she did not have to support themselves and were able to live with their parents so because they have a tax return that shows 0 income they get the money while the kid who has to work in order for a plce to live gets nothing because they did work.
Another classic case is a kid cant get any finacial aid because their parents refuse to let them use their tax returns and even through they don't live with their parents the goverment considers kids a dependent until the age of 25 for all college purposes so without their parents tax returns their is nothing they can do about it. Even if they havn't talked to their parents in 5 years it doesn't matter. You are considered a dependent until age 25 for finacial aid purposes, because the goverment feels it is the parents responsibility to pay for college and unless they see on paper that the parent does not make enough the kid is sh#t out of luck.

As far as the military goes, no kid should ever have to be asked to give up his/her life in exchange for an education. This is exactly why the military goes into low income neighborhoods to take the throw away kids, the kids they think nobody cares about if they get killed. Kids that don't know any better. meanwhile a wealthy family would never ever put their own kids life on the line.

So just because you were able to be included in the 1 percent that can do it does not mean that every kid can do it. Most will not be able to. Like I said if you took most middle and upper middle class kids off of their parents support. and their families connections The kids who think they are republicans because their parents tell them they are. They would not make it, most would become involved with drugs or other illegal things in order to surive and eat on a daily basis and others would end up working a dead end job the rest of their lives,

[Long Island Bob]

I'd wager my last dollar that if a study of done comparing folks who attend college where college is cheap or free (Germany, Wisconsin etc.) to folks who attend college where college is expensive we would find they look the same

No matter HOW much you subsidize college, the sons and daughter of bankers and lawyers attend college and the sons and daughters of waitresses and roofers do not.

The entire "college for all" idea is just a scam to take money away from the working class and give it to upper and middle classes.


When I went back to school one of the first people i met was a girl whose family lived in a 2,000 sq ft house, had visited disney World TWICE, never bought a car older than 5 eyars old and took ski vacations every year.

She complained that she was not eligible for enough financial aid. I was about to tell her I don't think she is entitled to aid but her cell phone rang. It was her sister asking her if shet still planned to go to the rock concert this weekend.

[Retired Bubblehead]

My whole point was it would be great if capatilism really was about hard work, but it's not. it's about being born into a family that is going to at the very least provide you with enough opportunites to have a fair chance to make something of yourself if you want to work for it. It's easy to feel as through capatilism is all about hard work when you were born into a familiy that is going to provide you with the opportunites needed to suceed if you do work hard.

On the other hand for the people born into poor families it is very hard to break the cycle. most families continue to be poor generation after generation because they lack the minimum opportunities to give their children that one needs in order to be given the chance to suceed through hard work.

Why shouldn't poor children have the opportunity to attend college for free? Wealthy children attend college for free. they don't pay for it their parents do.

Every child should have access to two things. Universal health care. It is so unfair that poor children born into poverty through no fault of their own are unable to receive yearly check ups and medical care because they lack health insurance. It's sick how so many children with cancer and other diseases have to live untrated and their lives end so young because they are without health insurance.

Everyone should be entitled to a college education if they want it so that everyone can at the very least get a fair start at life. a fair chance to be able to suceed. It is just to much for republicans to expect poor kids out of highschool to be able to pay for college and all their living expenses when they wouldn't expect their own kids to be able to do that.


This is a common myth. The FACTS (from a US Treasury study of tax returns over the decade from 1996 to 2005) are:
• There was considerable income mobility of individuals in the U.S. economy during the 1996 through 2005 period as over half of taxpayers moved to a different income quintile over this period.
• Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005.
• Among those with the very highest incomes in 1996 – the top 1/100 of 1 percent – only 25 percent remained in this group in 2005. Moreover, the median real income of these taxpayers declined over this period.
• The degree of mobility among income groups is unchanged from the prior decade (1987 through 1996).
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/tax-policy/library/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf

The cost of healthcare has risen at roughly twice the overall rate of inflation over the past four decades. The cost of college has risen roughly twice as fast as healthcare. Why? Because of the inrush of government money into these two sectors of the marketplace.

The endless injections of tax-dollars into these two systems has utterly neutralized any of the normal economic influences on cost. Instead, costs rise to meet each new wave of government money.

[countmein]

1. It really stinks what you went through but if you were able to pay rent of a thousand dollars a month that meant you were making well over minimum wage. Minimum wage in California was 4.25 in 1992 which meant after taxes your total income would of been 600 a month. Most 18 years olds will not be able to find a job where they make more then minimum wage and in 1992 the dollar was worth one and a half times what it's worth now.

2. It's great you did it and that why I said 1 percent. If you take most of the kids out of college that are being supported by their parents most of them would not be able to make it.

3. Their are many, many kids that would be able to make something of themselves if they were given the opportunites of the middle class.

4. Each and every person is different. Most people would not be able to work 60 hours a week an go to school, they just would not be able to pass. Most uneducated 18 yr olds are not going to have the mental capacity to handle that, most well educateded kids wouldn't be able to either.

5. Just because you were able to does not mean everybody would be able to. Their are also people that win the nobel prize at 18 and score 1600 on their SATs at 16. Their are kids that have hit records out at 15. Did you score 1600 on sats? did you not win the noble prize? Did you have a hit record at 15? No you did not and just because a few people were able to does not mean that you would be able to.

6. Just because you had it rough does not mean that other kids that didn't deserve what they went through should have it rough just because you did.
Are you going to throw your kids to the wolves once they turn 18? or are you going tohelp them finance their way through college?

7. And as far as finacial aid and scholarships go many kids fall through the cracks because they do work. they work and their tax return together with their parents tax returns show that their family made to much money and these really poor kids don't get the grant because they did wok and have a certain amount of income coming in.
8. Meanwhile the middle class kid across twon ends up getting a full pell grant because he/she did not have to support themselves and were able to live with their parents so because they have a tax return that shows 0 income they get the money while the kid who has to work in order for a plce to live gets nothing because they did work.
Another classic case is a kid cant get any finacial aid because their parents refuse to let them use their tax returns and even through they don't live with their parents the goverment considers kids a dependent until the age of 25 for all college purposes so without their parents tax returns their is nothing they can do about it. Even if they havn't talked to their parents in 5 years it doesn't matter. You are considered a dependent until age 25 for finacial aid purposes, because the goverment feels it is the parents responsibility to pay for college and unless they see on paper that the parent does not make enough the kid is (edited)out of luck.

9. As far as the military goes, no kid should ever have to be asked to give up his/her life in exchange for an education. This is exactly why the military goes into low income neighborhoods to take the throw away kids, the kids they think nobody cares about if they get killed. Kids that don't know any better. meanwhile a wealthy family would never ever put their own kids life on the line.

10. So just because you were able to be included in the 1 percent that can do it does not mean that every kid can do it. Most will not be able to. Like I said if you took most middle and upper middle class kids off of their parents support. and their families connections The kids who think they are republicans because their parents tell them they are. They would not make it, most would become involved with drugs or other illegal things in order to surive and eat on a daily basis and others would end up working a dead end job the rest of their lives,

1. I didn't make much more than min. wage. At the grocery store I made 4.35 and hour, $121.80 a week. At the bar I made $4.25 an hour plus tips, which was around $211.50 a week. That put me at roughly $1333.20 a week before taxes. You know, it is a bit insulting for someone who doesn't even know you try to take away what you were able to accomplish against all the odds. I came from a very poor family, from a very poor area; I was physically, sexually, and emotionally abused as a child, and yet here I am. I am married, I have four wonderful and healthy children, I have owned and operated my own business, I own two properties and I am running for public office. Who would have thought? So please, stop trying to knock down, by arguing every aspect of how I managed to pull myself out of my childhood to succeed in life. Thank you.

2. There are a lot of kids out there who fail out of college whose parents are paying for it. There are a lot of kids out there doing it on their own that suceed at it too. It all goes back to what I said before, IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH, you will find a way.

3.You keep spouting the middle class as though they are the ones that have it made. Please. Most of those people in the middle class are the ones that make too much money to qualify for financial aid in college. Those are the ones that end up with the bill. It is the ones from poor families that do have the oportunites to qualify for the money. Have YOU ever tried to qualify for financial aid? I have. I did receive student loans, which I paid back with interest. Why did I qualify for those loans? BECAUSE I WAS POOR. I also received a little in Pell Grants, which went towards tuition first and what was left over, went to help pay for books.

4. Some would, some wouldn't. It depends on how bad you want it. What is more important to you, partying or graduating? If you can't work 60 hours a week and go to school full-time, then work 40 and take classes at night at the local, and cheap, community college. Gee, do you think the only way to get a degree is to start when you are 18 and go full time?

5. No, I don't have or done those things, but there are a lot of things that I have stepped out and done. I did what I had to do. I am not gifted with a high IQ, nor a singing voice, but I am gifted with a determination to succeed at whatever I put my mind to. See that is my point that you are not grasping. There are a lot of intelligent and tallented people out there that do not succeed simply because they CHOOSE not to. THEY decide what they are going to make of themselves. NO ONE can make you fail and NO ONE ELSE can make you succeed. YOU have to do it for yourself.

6. As far as my children go, they will have to work for their education, just like I did. If they want a car, they will have to pay for it. If they want to go to college, they will have to work for it too. Will we HELP them? Yes. Will we pay their way? NO. If they want us to help pay for college, they will have to work and maintain at least a B average. They will not get a free ride to college. And for the record, my oldest is talking about going in the military for college money. SHE doesn't feel that it is her parents responsibility to pay for her college education, since she is able to find a way to do it for herself.

7 & 8. I proved to the finance office at my college that I was independent of my mother. I had my own place and earned my own money, so at the age of 18, I applied for the student loans on my own, without her tax returns. After taking a year off between my freshman and sophmore year, to save some money I needed, once again, I applied for and received student loans on my own. It can be done. And you have it backwards as far as the income thing goes. The middle class kid who doesn't work, but has parents that do, probably has a family income of 60-100,000. A poor family's income wouldn't even come close to that and would better qualify for grants and such. Even if both parents worked full-time at low wages and the kid worked part-time at min. wage, they would make more than $45,000 a year as a family. That is the kid that would qualify for government grants and such. And if they are really poor, or come from a single parent home, they would have even a better chance of getting help.

9. Not a supporter of the military are you. My hubby was in the Navy for 9 years (first Desert Storm), my father died a Marine in Viet Nam and the man that I called Dad growing up was in the Army during Viet Nam and retired from the Coast Guard after 20 years. We don't see serving in the military as a put down. We see it as a privilege. Also, my father didn't die for nothing, nor is he forgotten, even coming from a poor family originially from Kentucky and later from East St. Louis. And as far as the military going into poor neighborhoods, well obviously we see that differently. You see them preying on those poor children. I see them giving them an opportunity to make something out of their lives. The military gives most of these kids more than just money for college. They give them discipline, pride in themselves and honor for serving their country. Even if they never go to college, during their tour or after they get out, they walk away with a lot more than when they went in with. They have learned a skill and they have learned what it is like to earn a decent living and support themselves. My hubby doens't have a college degree, but he still earns one hell of a living off the skills he obtained in the Navy.

10. You have a low opinion of the human spirit and a victim mentality. The only difference between me and those failures that you talk about are the choices that we make for ourselves.

[educ8er]

There are so many reason why this will not work, but there are other considerations Obama does not understand. Many enroll in college after high school and drop. Who will pay for that?

Back in the 70s there were so many engineers they could not all find work in their field. Suddenly, engineers were working in technical operations. At times the workforce started requiring technicians to have engineering degrees. That flopped when people flocked to other degree programs.

Having a degree does not mean much if you do not like the work, did not perform well in school, or find you want another education path after working in the new field. I served with many that had degrees but no knowledge of how to engage their subjects after college.

It won't happen so no reason to engage in "what if's".

[rgpizza]

1. I didn't make much more than min. wage. At the grocery store I made 4.35 and hour, $121.80 a week. At the bar I made $4.25 an hour plus tips, which was around $211.50 a week. That put me at roughly $1333.20 a week before taxes. You know, it is a bit insulting for someone who doesn't even know you try to take away what you were able to accomplish against all the odds. I came from a very poor family, from a very poor area; I was physically, sexually, and emotionally abused as a child, and yet here I am. I am married, I have four wonderful and healthy children, I have owned and operated my own business, I own two properties and I am running for public office. Who would have thought? So please, stop trying to knock down, by arguing every aspect of how I managed to pull myself out of my childhood to succeed in life. Thank you.

2. There are a lot of kids out there who fail out of college whose parents are paying for it. There are a lot of kids out there doing it on their own that suceed at it too. It all goes back to what I said before, IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH, you will find a way.

3.You keep spouting the middle class as though they are the ones that have it made. Please. Most of those people in the middle class are the ones that make too much money to qualify for financial aid in college. Those are the ones that end up with the bill. It is the ones from poor families that do have the oportunites to qualify for the money. Have YOU ever tried to qualify for financial aid? I have. I did receive student loans, which I paid back with interest. Why did I qualify for those loans? BECAUSE I WAS POOR. I also received a little in Pell Grants, which went towards tuition first and what was left over, went to help pay for books.

4. Some would, some wouldn't. It depends on how bad you want it. What is more important to you, partying or graduating? If you can't work 60 hours a week and go to school full-time, then work 40 and take classes at night at the local, and cheap, community college. Gee, do you think the only way to get a degree is to start when you are 18 and go full time?

5. No, I don't have or done those things, but there are a lot of things that I have stepped out and done. I did what I had to do. I am not gifted with a high IQ, nor a singing voice, but I am gifted with a determination to succeed at whatever I put my mind to. See that is my point that you are not grasping. There are a lot of intelligent and tallented people out there that do not succeed simply because they CHOOSE not to. THEY decide what they are going to make of themselves. NO ONE can make you fail and NO ONE ELSE can make you succeed. YOU have to do it for yourself.

6. As far as my children go, they will have to work for their education, just like I did. If they want a car, they will have to pay for it. If they want to go to college, they will have to work for it too. Will we HELP them? Yes. Will we pay their way? NO. If they want us to help pay for college, they will have to work and maintain at least a B average. They will not get a free ride to college. And for the record, my oldest is talking about going in the military for college money. SHE doesn't feel that it is her parents responsibility to pay for her college education, since she is able to find a way to do it for herself.

7 & 8. I proved to the finance office at my college that I was independent of my mother. I had my own place and earned my own money, so at the age of 18, I applied for the student loans on my own, without her tax returns. After taking a year off between my freshman and sophmore year, to save some money I needed, once again, I applied for and received student loans on my own. It can be done. And you have it backwards as far as the income thing goes. The middle class kid who doesn't work, but has parents that do, probably has a family income of 60-100,000. A poor family's income wouldn't even come close to that and would better qualify for grants and such. Even if both parents worked full-time at low wages and the kid worked part-time at min. wage, they would make more than $45,000 a year as a family. That is the kid that would qualify for government grants and such. And if they are really poor, or come from a single parent home, they would have even a better chance of getting help.

9. Not a supporter of the military are you. My hubby was in the Navy for 9 years (first Desert Storm), my father died a Marine in Viet Nam and the man that I called Dad growing up was in the Army during Viet Nam and retired from the Coast Guard after 20 years. We don't see serving in the military as a put down. We see it as a privilege. Also, my father didn't die for nothing, nor is he forgotten, even coming from a poor family originially from Kentucky and later from East St. Louis. And as far as the military going into poor neighborhoods, well obviously we see that differently. You see them preying on those poor children. I see them giving them an opportunity to make something out of their lives. The military gives most of these kids more than just money for college. They give them discipline, pride in themselves and honor for serving their country. Even if they never go to college, during their tour or after they get out, they walk away with a lot more than when they went in with. They have learned a skill and they have learned what it is like to earn a decent living and support themselves. My hubby doens't have a college degree, but he still earns one hell of a living off the skills he obtained in the Navy.

10. You have a low opinion of the human spirit and a victim mentality. The only difference between me and those failures that you talk about are the choices that we make for ourselves.


If you were able to get approved as an independent it may have had something to do with the state you lived in and isn't college free in california if you maintain over a B average anyway? But I have taught and worked in the finance offices in colleges throughout Texas, Florida and New York and I know for a fact unless someone is married or has a child it is almost impossible to get independent status. Yes poor kids who don't work will get approved for a pell grant but I see working kids get turned down everyday. As long as they are working full-time even at a minimum wage job it is very tough to get a full pell grant. I see many middle class young adults between 24 - 29 that are considered independents so they only need to report their income. Many live with their parents and work very little or not at all and because their income is low they receive full aid however the same young adults who can not live with their parents and have to work full time receive little or no aid at all. At the beginning of every semester I deal with kids in tears that need to drop out of school becaus they did not get aid and could not afford to pay for college. They can simply just not put enough aside while working a minimu wage job and having to support themselves. Even if they do get loans, the loans reimburse them. They do not come before the start of the semester so the kids would need to have the money up front first.

Finally for you to want other kids to go through a rough time just because you did is terrible. Anybody who is aable to should pay for their childs education. Some people save their whole lives in order to pay for their kids to go to college and give them a eaiser and better life then they had. A college education is something a parent should be responsible in providing or their children as long as they can afford to do so.

And what skills is an 18 year old going to learn in the military while we are in the middle of a war? One day hes goofing off playing video games with his friends and the next he's fighting for his life. These kids have no idea what they are getting into. Why don't the recruiters go into rich neighborhoods then? Because they are preying on these poor kids with no sense of family or self. Many join just becaus they think it sounds cool or tough. They are not learning how to earn a decent living, they are learning how to be someones slave. All they are in a war is just another number, dying or becoming disabled. They arre not old enough to drink or vote but they can die on a presidents command that they didn't even have a choice in electing.

You are a very defensive person and just because most of your life was miserable does not mean that the kids of the futures lives should be. Their are other and better methods then yoour tough love and surival of the fittest ones in order to teach children how to be responisble, hardworking and caring individuals.

[countmein]

If you were able to get approved as an independent it may have had something to do with the state you lived in and isn't college free in california if you maintain over a B average anyway? But I have taught and worked in the finance offices in colleges throughout Texas, Florida and New York and I know for a fact unless someone is married or has a child it is almost impossible to get independent status. Yes poor kids who don't work will get approved for a pell grant but I see working kids get turned down everyday. As long as they are working full-time even at a minimum wage job it is very tough to get a full pell grant. I see many middle class young adults between 24 - 29 that are considered independents so they only need to report their income. Many live with their parents and work very little or not at all and because their income is low they receive full aid however the same young adults who can not live with their parents and have to work full time receive little or no aid at all. At the beginning of every semester I deal with kids in tears that need to drop out of school becaus they did not get aid and could not afford to pay for college. They can simply just not put enough aside while working a minimu wage job and having to support themselves. Even if they do get loans, the loans reimburse them. They do not come before the start of the semester so the kids would need to have the money up front first.

Finally for you to want other kids to go through a rough time just because you did is terrible. Anybody who is aable to should pay for their childs education. Some people save their whole lives in order to pay for their kids to go to college and give them a eaiser and better life then they had. A college education is something a parent should be responsible in providing or their children as long as they can afford to do so.

And what skills is an 18 year old going to learn in the military while we are in the middle of a war? One day hes goofing off playing video games with his friends and the next he's fighting for his life. These kids have no idea what they are getting into. Why don't the recruiters go into rich neighborhoods then? Because they are preying on these poor kids with no sense of family or self. Many join just becaus they think it sounds cool or tough. They are not learning how to earn a decent living, they are learning how to be someones slave. All they are in a war is just another number, dying or becoming disabled. They arre not old enough to drink or vote but they can die on a presidents command that they didn't even have a choice in electing.

You are a very defensive person and just because most of your life was miserable does not mean that the kids of the futures lives should be. Their are other and better methods then yoour tough love and surival of the fittest ones in order to teach children how to be responisble, hardworking and caring individuals.

I am going to sum this up for the last time.

I want young adults to learn how to be responsible for themselves. I want them to go from this "victim" mentality that the liberals have conditioned them for, where they rely on everyone and especially the government to hand them everything, to become independent, responsible, young adults who want to go out and work for what they achieve. This is what I am instilling in my children.

Once again, where is it written that hard work is harmful, because that is what I am reading from your posts. So I had to work 65+ hours a week to put myself through college. It didn't harm me in any way. As a matter of fact, it made me more appreciative of what I EARNED. And if I didn't want to work that many hours, I could have lived on campus or gotten a roommate or I could have gone to college part-time. And a funny thing about my student loans, they didn't come for weeks after I was approved, but the colleges that I attended still let me take classes once I was approved. They simply had the check sent to them and had me sign it over to them it when it arrived. None of the colleges you worked for did this? If not, then I guess these poor kids that had to drop out at the schools were you worked needed to find a better school that knew how to work for them.

And again, why do people want to think and spout that the only way to earn a degree is to go to a 4 year university full-time, right out of high school? Work and take classes at community college. If you take one or two classes a semister, which is doable even while working full-time, then by the time you are "independent" of your parents, transfer to a 4 year college and apply for grants, loans, and scholarships. If you don't get all that you need, go part-time. I had a friend that worked at a nursing home while going to a community college to earn her Associate's Degree in Nursing. She graduated, got a good job and continued to take night classes, while working a nurse's hours and raising a family, until she earned her Bachelor's Degree. Another friend of mine just earned her Bachelor's Degree this past year by taking a few classes here and there while working shift work as a supervisor in a factory. By the way, she is 43. Some other friends of mine, a couple, just earned their degrees in the past couple of years. He was in the military for 12 years and attended night classes while he worked full-time. She was a bookkeeper, working full-time while attending school. They were also raising two children. She is now working full-time in her field and is taking more night classes to earn her Master's Degree. I can give you example after example of people who did not get their degrees, but earned them. There are posters on this board who are doing the same thing. Is their degree worth less than those who go to college right out of high school? No. Ususally it is worth more, since they have work experience to back up their credentials.

As far as the military goes, we will have to agree to disagree. Having family members serve and die in the military, I have a different view. I know that my father volunteered during a draft. He was very proud of serving his country. My dad also volunteered during the draft and was very proud to serve his country for over 20 years. My hubby knew what he was getting into when he joined the Navy. He is very proud of all that he accomplished while serving his country. Imagine some poor kid, that came from a white trash family trained only to be a slave, later going on to work at Camp David under the President. Who would have thought it would ever happen? He is also very grateful for the skills he learned while serving that gave him the opportunity to earn the wages he does and without any kind of college degree. How on earth does that happen? I thought you needed at least a four year degree to achieve upper middle class. :rolleyes: There are many young men and women who join our military who know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it. You don't seem to give our young people the credit they deserve. You don't seem to give our military any credit either.

By the way, since you stated that you were a teacher at some of these colleges where you worked, how did you get through college? Just curious.

[Stopthinkingsomuch!!!]

Yep, college for all. All who pay. My parents never paid one dime for me to go to college. I got that "payback the loan" bill in the mail addressed to ME. I am currently in school again, and the cost of it is coming out of my paycheck.

I don't think that college is just for 4.0 students. Sure funding should go to them, but to say that only people with high GPA should have a chance at an higher education, isn't right. Some people reach there potential later in life. My mom struggled in her youth, but years later she studied to become an IMC nurse. There are also those who do extremely well in high school and do awful in college. It all depends on your determination.

[RWReaganfan]

And what skills is an 18 year old going to learn in the military while we are in the middle of a war? One day hes goofing off playing video games with his friends and the next he's fighting for his life. These kids have no idea what they are getting into. Why don't the recruiters go into rich neighborhoods then? Because they are preying on these poor kids with no sense of family or self. Many join just becaus they think it sounds cool or tough. They are not learning how to earn a decent living, they are learning how to be someones slave. All they are in a war is just another number, dying or becoming disabled. They arre not old enough to drink or vote but they can die on a presidents command that they didn't even have a choice in electing.




As a veteran I am offended by your ridiculous assertions! You obviously know NOTHING about the military or the opportunities it provides for our young people.

I served twelve years, including three years as a recruiter that hold in such contempt, my son is completing his third year, and my son-in-law is completing his seventh year.

I have a master's degree in education paid for with GI Bill. My son can walk out of the military into any number of jobs based on his experience, and my son-in-law is a master diesel mechanic. Not everyone in the military serves on the front line and sees combat. I pray they stay in and continue to serve their country, including those like you who impugn their character.

Your comment about not being able to vote illustrates your ignorance. There are no 17-year-olds in front-line combat units.

Educate yourself.

[countmein]

As a veteran I am offended by your ridiculous assertions! You obviously know NOTHING about the military or the opportunities it provides for our young people.

I served twelve years, including three years as a recruiter that hold in such contempt, my son is completing his third year, and my son-in-law is completing his seventh year.

I have a master's degree in education paid for with GI Bill. My son can walk out of the military into any number of jobs based on his experience, and my son-in-law is a master diesel mechanic. Not everyone in the military serves on the front line and sees combat. I pray they stay in and continue to serve their country, including those like you who impugn their character.

Your comment about not being able to vote illustrates your ignorance. There are no 17-year-olds in front-line combat units.

Educate yourself.

Thank you for your comment and thank you for your service!

[democon]

- In Germany college is free, and yet the sons and daughters of bankers an lawyers are MUCH more likely to go to college than the sons and daughters of factory workers and waitress moms. In fact, college attendance in Germany follows pretty much the same patterns it does in the USA.

- In California college is nearly free, and yet the sons and daughters of bankers an lawyers are MUCH more likely to go to college than the sons and daughters of factory workers and waitress moms. In fact, college attendance in California follows pretty much the same patterns it does in the rest of USA.

- In Wisconsin college is free, and yet the sons and daughters of bankers an lawyers are MUCH more likely to go to college than the sons and daughters of factory workers and waitress moms. In fact, college attendance in Wisconsin follows pretty much the same patterns it does in the rest of the USA.

‘free college for all” is just another way of saying that the factory dads and waitress moms should pay so the sons and daughter of lawyers and doctors can get something for free. It is a disgusting idea and should be rejected by anyone who spends more than 5 minutes thinking BEFORE making a decision… (sadly spending more than 5 minutes thinking before making a decision is a rare trait on both the left and the right.)

College in America and ESPECIALLY California is most certainly NOT free; thought you of all people would have understood that.

[democon]

Apparently not a single ****ing person here understands education, especially not higher education and specifically not higher education in this country:

It was NEVER meant for everyone. It was only after the GI Bill that we grew a community college system in this country. Previous, it was only universities which could hand out degrees, now even CCs can and do hand out out AAs, some BAs and others.

Why? Huge infulx of students.

What else to do with the applications when you have entire universities telling applicants that their applications might have to wait 4 months?

Oh, didn't know that?

[Greyclouds]

Apparently not a single ****ing person here understands education, especially not higher education and specifically not higher education in this country:

It was NEVER meant for everyone. It was only after the GI Bill that we grew a community college system in this country. Previous, it was only universities which could hand out degrees, now even CCs can and do hand out out AAs, some BAs and others.

Why? Huge infulx of students.

What else to do with the applications when you have entire universities telling applicants that their applications might have to wait 4 months?

Oh, didn't know that?

So, you're arguing that the initial intent of higher education (its history in this nation is primarily founded in Seminary education that slowly morphed into higher institutes of technical learning) is a reason why everyone should not have a chance to obtain it?

Don't get me wrong here: I'm all for strengthening the quality of material in high school to make it a more competitive and comprehensive education for children; however, college degrees are the psychological STANDARD for applying to $40k+ jobs.

Want to change the system? Go badger your local high school's board to toughen their class requirements and spread word around to businesses that your high school students are better educated.

[rgpizza]

As a veteran I am offended by your ridiculous assertions! You obviously know NOTHING about the military or the opportunities it provides for our young people.

I served twelve years, including three years as a recruiter that hold in such contempt, my son is completing his third year, and my son-in-law is completing his seventh year.

I have a master's degree in education paid for with GI Bill. My son can walk out of the military into any number of jobs based on his experience, and my son-in-law is a master diesel mechanic. Not everyone in the military serves on the front line and sees combat. I pray they stay in and continue to serve their country, including those like you who impugn their character.

Your comment about not being able to vote illustrates your ignorance. There are no 17-year-olds in front-line combat units.

Educate yourself.

You cant be serious? Are you saying they don't send 18 ytear olds into battle ?

heres are faces from the page of the washington post of 18 yr olds that recently died in battle

18 yr olds. total deaths last years 38

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/ages/18/

19 year olds total deaths last year 276

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/ages/19/

20 year olds total deaths last year 476

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/ages/20/

age 21 total deaths last year 593

Between 18 - 24 over 4,000 kids that should of been in college, that should of been going to parties and going on spring break vactions with their families. Dead. Dead for no reason.

Do not tell me 18 year olds are not on the front line of battle!

I have worked in many at risk neighborhoods, and the recruiters pour into those schools by the truck loads. Such a great opportunity huh? Is that why you never see one recruiter make his way over to the rich neighborhoods and private schools?

You have no idea what your talking about. I've seen first hand 17 and 18 yr old kids that were gofing off on the basketball court with their little brothers one summer and home in a bodybag the next. And those are just deaths, their are thousands of 18, 19 and 21 yr olds that come home wounded, their lives ruined forever because they thought the war would be like a video game and thought they were invincible. Not old enough to make the decision wether or not they should be able to take a drink but old enough wether or not to make the decision to put their lives on the line?

[rgpizza]

I am going to sum this up for the last time.

I want young adults to learn how to be responsible for themselves. I want them to go from this "victim" mentality that the liberals have conditioned them for, where they rely on everyone and especially the government to hand them everything, to become independent, responsible, young adults who want to go out and work for what they achieve. This is what I am instilling in my children.

Once again, where is it written that hard work is harmful, because that is what I am reading from your posts. So I had to work 65+ hours a week to put myself through college. It didn't harm me in any way. As a matter of fact, it made me more appreciative of what I EARNED. And if I didn't want to work that many hours, I could have lived on campus or gotten a roommate or I could have gone to college part-time. And a funny thing about my student loans, they didn't come for weeks after I was approved, but the colleges that I attended still let me take classes once I was approved. They simply had the check sent to them and had me sign it over to them it when it arrived. None of the colleges you worked for did this? If not, then I guess these poor kids that had to drop out at the schools were you worked needed to find a better school that knew how to work for them.

And again, why do people want to think and spout that the only way to earn a degree is to go to a 4 year university full-time, right out of high school? Work and take classes at community college. If you take one or two classes a semister, which is doable even while working full-time, then by the time you are "independent" of your parents, transfer to a 4 year college and apply for grants, loans, and scholarships. If you don't get all that you need, go part-time. I had a friend that worked at a nursing home while going to a community college to earn her Associate's Degree in Nursing. She graduated, got a good job and continued to take night classes, while working a nurse's hours and raising a family, until she earned her Bachelor's Degree. Another friend of mine just earned her Bachelor's Degree this past year by taking a few classes here and there while working shift work as a supervisor in a factory. By the way, she is 43. Some other friends of mine, a couple, just earned their degrees in the past couple of years. He was in the military for 12 years and attended night classes while he worked full-time. She was a bookkeeper, working full-time while attending school. They were also raising two children. She is now working full-time in her field and is taking more night classes to earn her Master's Degree. I can give you example after example of people who did not get their degrees, but earned them. There are posters on this board who are doing the same thing. Is their degree worth less than those who go to college right out of high school? No. Ususally it is worth more, since they have work experience to back up their credentials.

As far as the military goes, we will have to agree to disagree. Having family members serve and die in the military, I have a different view. I know that my father volunteered during a draft. He was very proud of serving his country. My dad also volunteered during the draft and was very proud to serve his country for over 20 years. My hubby knew what he was getting into when he joined the Navy. He is very proud of all that he accomplished while serving his country. Imagine some poor kid, that came from a white trash family trained only to be a slave, later going on to work at Camp David under the President. Who would have thought it would ever happen? He is also very grateful for the skills he learned while serving that gave him the opportunity to earn the wages he does and without any kind of college degree. How on earth does that happen? I thought you needed at least a four year degree to achieve upper middle class. :rolleyes: There are many young men and women who join our military who know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it. You don't seem to give our young people the credit they deserve. You don't seem to give our military any credit either.

By the way, since you stated that you were a teacher at some of these colleges where you worked, how did you get through college? Just curious.

I'll sum it up for you one last time. Most of the kids that join the military DO NOT know what they are getting into

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/ages/19/

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/ages/20/

Here are just a few hundred pictures and epiths of the thousands of kids under 24 that recently dies in the war.

If the military is such a great opportunity then how come recruiters never go into private schools or schools in rich neighborhoods?

And yes once they get approved they can start school until the aid comes, but many, many kids have aid that gets delayed because they have trouble obtaining documents like tax returns, having to write numerous appeals and so on. By the time classes start they do not have the 1200 or so for their classes and the 800 or so for their books so after going to two or three classes they reliaze they aren't even enrolled anymore and have been going to class fo nothing.

Again someone should not be expected to turn 18 and automatically become a self sufficent adult. The few years it takes to transition into adulthood which is between 18 -21 should not be taken away from any kid. Also some kids need to spend a lot more time on schoolwork because they struggle withschool so working fulltime and passing would be impossible. It depends on th kid and that is why I started out by saying only about 1 percent would be able to go to school and work fulltime while having to take on all other responsibilites such as rent, utilites, car insurance, ec. and no kid should have to even through they do.

The fact remains that if it was so easy to work, support yourself and sttend college then their wouldn't me so many young adults living in poverty and continuing the cycle. If opportunity didn't matter then 80 percent of all middle class and upper middle class kids wouldn't be continuing onto college while only 33 percent of lowincome families have children that continue onto college.