What is the most subtle deception in the world?

[ROBERTENEAL]

The Bible reveals Satan as the master of counterfeits; the father of lies and confusion.

A prime example is the account of Moses and Aaron in Pharaoh's court.
When Aaron cast a rod on the ground that turned into a serpent, Pharaoh's magicians followed suit. There was a whole bunch of snakes squirming on the ground.

So began a series of events; God would produce something through His servants and then Pharaohs magicians would perform an equivalent feat. Up to a point.

Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly.

The Bible also tells us that Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming.

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?

[texan_rep]

Where's my popcorn and my Milk Duds? (This should be a 2-snack thread)

;)

[TaylorW65]

You contradicted yourself.

You said 'Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly." Then you said, 'Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming."

So which is he? Is he Ugly or Charming ? Is he Subtle or Obvious?

[RayMan]

The Bible reveals Satan as the master of counterfeits; the father of lies and confusion.

A prime example is the account of Moses and Aaron in Pharaoh's court.
When Aaron cast a rod on the ground that turned into a serpent, Pharaoh's magicians followed suit. There was a whole bunch of snakes squirming on the ground.

So began a series of events; God would produce something through His servants and then Pharaohs magicians would perform an equivalent feat. Up to a point.

Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly.

The Bible also tells us that Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming.

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?

"Ye shall not surely die."

[davetexas]

The Bible reveals Satan as the master of counterfeits; the father of lies and confusion.

A prime example is the account of Moses and Aaron in Pharaoh's court.
When Aaron cast a rod on the ground that turned into a serpent, Pharaoh's magicians followed suit. There was a whole bunch of snakes squirming on the ground.

So began a series of events; God would produce something through His servants and then Pharaohs magicians would perform an equivalent feat. Up to a point.

Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly.

The Bible also tells us that Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming.

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?



The three "G's"

Gold
glory
girls
Most fallen ministers fell by one or some combination

[FreedomWorks]

Liberals saying they support freedom. After all Liberal=Free

[ROBERTENEAL]

You contradicted yourself.

You said 'Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly." Then you said, 'Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming."

So which is he? Is he Ugly or Charming ? Is he Subtle or Obvious?

He is the greatest actor, he makes all of the Academy Awards winners from Hollywood of the last 80 years look like amateurs.

He can present himself as Dracula, or he can be Prince Charming, or anything in between.

It depends on what he wants to do, scare the Hell out of someone or charm them. He has a different look, a different costume, and a different dialogue for every situation.

Plus a third of the original angel host for assistance.

[Angryamerican]

The Bible reveals Satan as the master of counterfeits; the father of lies and confusion.

A prime example is the account of Moses and Aaron in Pharaoh's court.
When Aaron cast a rod on the ground that turned into a serpent, Pharaoh's magicians followed suit. There was a whole bunch of snakes squirming on the ground.

So began a series of events; God would produce something through His servants and then Pharaohs magicians would perform an equivalent feat. Up to a point.

Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly.

The Bible also tells us that Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming.

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?

I believe there are two views or beliefs,that is believed by most of Christianity,which i think satan is behind.

I believe satan has mislead many with these two beliefs, that are really insulting to God but i can't go beyond that.

I believe someday there will be many shocked by the revelation.

[Residential Bob]

You contradicted yourself.

You said 'Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly." Then you said, 'Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming."

So which is he? Is he Ugly or Charming ? Is he Subtle or Obvious?Did you mean to ask, "'[Are his counterfeits] obvious and ugly'" Robert didn't say that Satan is obvious and ugly. He didn't contradict himself. I think in the religion forum, you have to be respctful of peoples' posts.

And why couldn't Satan be both? Inconsistency can make for some very subtle deception. Look at our own current flip-flopping political leadership, for example.

[ROBERTENEAL]

Did you mean to ask, "'[Are his counterfeits] obvious and ugly'" Robert didn't say that Satan is obvious and ugly. He didn't contradict himself. I think in the religion forum, you have to be respctful of peoples' posts.

And why couldn't Satan be both? Inconsistency can make for some very subtle deception. Look at our own current flip-flopping political leadership, for example.

Didn't one actor play the parts of both of the main characters in the old "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" movie? Maybe it was Lon Chaney, he was pretty good at changing appearance. If Hollywood can do it, the devil can do it.

[Semi-Sweet]

Psalms 14:2-3 tells how God looks down from heaven to see what man is like and finds him evil. "They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt, there is none who does good, no not one."

The OT sees man as "a little lower than the angels" and "in the image of God" and yet as "corrupt" and capable of doing nothing good.

Why Satan? Men are evil and deceiving. The more attractive and charming they are, the more they are able to deceive.

ETA: Women are evil and deceiving as well!

[ROBERTENEAL]

Psalms 14:2-3 tells how God looks down from heaven to see what man is like and finds him evil. "They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt, there is none who does good, no not one."

The OT sees man as "a little lower than the angels" and "in the image of God" and yet as "corrupt" and capable of doing nothing good.

Why Satan? Men are evil and deceiving. The more attractive and charming they are, the more they are able to deceive.

ETA: Women are evil and deceiving as well!

Satan is not the only enemy. There is an unholy trinity to contend with; the world, the flesh, and the devil.

This raises another question; are the works of the flesh and the confusion that exists in the world independent from the influence of the Devil?

[Semi-Sweet]

Satan is not the only enemy. There is an unholy trinity to contend with; the world, the flesh, and the devil.

This raises another question; are the works of the flesh and the confusion that exists in the world independent from the influence of the Devil?

In the days before the flood, God was fed up with man's evil.

Gen 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." KJV

If this was the result of Satan, the old Devil, why didn't our just creator destroy Satan instead of destroying all but 8 people? If Satan had that kind of power before the flood, he still had the same power after the flood.

We are a strange mixture of good and evil. There is at least one passage that describes the mix of good and evil in man. . .Ecc. 7:29. . ."Truly, this only have I found: that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.'

This mixture of good and evil is sometimes strangely related, as in Genesis 9:6 where man is depicted as a likely murderer of his own kind and yet described as being in the image of God. Genesis 1:26 we were created in His image and also according to His likeness.

Amidst this strange mixture of good and evil man appears to have a choice. As to which of these forces dominates, good or evil, depends on the responses he makes. Of all the evil deeds on earth, I can't think of a single one that wasn't committed by a specific person/persons.

[Chucky]

You contradicted yourself.

You said 'Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly." Then you said, 'Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming."

So which is he? Is he Ugly or Charming ? Is he Subtle or Obvious?
Great example!


If this were in Sports, I would have said the greatest deception was that the Arizona Cardinals were a professional football team, but then they went to the Super Bowl... (when I lived in AZ the standing joke was that the nearest pro team was in Denver)


Back on topic - One big deception I'd point out is blaming all evil on Satan. It may be part of the natural self-deception of the human heart, but we humans come up with plenty of evil on our own, without any demonic influence at all. (I believe Semi-Sweet's point is the same)

[Abel]

I would have to say that the most subtle deception in the world would have to be religion itself. There has probably been more harm and cruelty inflicted upon mankind in the name of religion than all natural disasters combined.

Religion has separated continents, regions, countries, cities, and families since the beginning of time. Religion is still divisive today. Islam is divided by Shiites and Sunnis. Judaism is divided between orthodox and contemporary. Christianity is divided by dominations: Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc...

God has never wanted us to be religious. God simply wants to have a relationship with us. He wants us to have a relationship with Him, and He has told us how to have that relationship. He wants us to have a relationship with each other. Satan has fooled man into believing we must have religion in order to have that relationship with God and one another. Satan does everything possible to promote religion because he knows how divisive it will be.

Yep, I’d have to say religion is the most subtle deception in the world.

[RayMan]

<snip>. He wants us to have a relationship with Him, and He has told us how to have that relationship.<snip>


How has He told us this?

[Abel]

How has He told us this?

He has written these things down for us in our hearts:

Romans 2:14-15 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

[ROBERTENEAL]

In the days before the flood, God was fed up with man's evil.

Gen 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." KJV

If this was the result of Satan, the old Devil, why didn't our just creator destroy Satan instead of destroying all but 8 people? If Satan had that kind of power before the flood, he still had the same power after the flood.

We are a strange mixture of good and evil. There is at least one passage that describes the mix of good and evil in man. . .Ecc. 7:29. . ."Truly, this only have I found: that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.'

This mixture of good and evil is sometimes strangely related, as in Genesis 9:6 where man is depicted as a likely murderer of his own kind and yet described as being in the image of God. Genesis 1:26 we were created in His image and also according to His likeness.

Amidst this strange mixture of good and evil man appears to have a choice. As to which of these forces dominates, good or evil, depends on the responses he makes. Of all the evil deeds on earth, I can't think of a single one that wasn't committed by a specific person/persons.

Why wasn't Satan destroyed instead of thousands of people?

As I understand it, Satan has usurped a low level position of authority on this planet that was supposed to belong to the human race. This planet is like an apartment that has a tenant who resides here in spite of the fact that he has violated the lease. He has received his eviction notice, but the Sheriff has not showed up yet to physically kicked him out.

It seems that there is a long scenario that has to be played out before Satan is cast into the lake of fire forever (Rev. 20:10).
This will be after he has tormented and deceived people of the current world order, after he has been bound for 1000 years, and after he has led the final rebellion (Rev 20:7-8).

How much influence does Satan have now?

To say that he is the cause of all of the problems in the world is superstition.

To say that he is a non-factor in today's world is blindness, IMHO.

Satan causes grief and confusion, but he is not invincible.

[RayMan]

He has written these things down for us in our hearts:

Romans 2:14-15 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

Couldn't agree more. Thanks.

[TaylorW65]

He is the greatest actor, he makes all of the Academy Awards winners from Hollywood of the last 80 years look like amateurs.

He can present himself as Dracula, or he can be Prince Charming.


But the way he is used by Christian Fundamentalists is that if you deviate from someone's interpretation of the Bible then you must be under the influence of the devil.

I have further seen people use the devil as a justification for believing that other religions are his deception to keep people away from Christianity.

I know there is evil in the world but I don't believe in a devil as the anthropomorphic personification of that evil.

[ROBERTENEAL]

But the way he is used by Christian Fundamentalists is that if you deviate from someone's interpretation of the Bible then you must be under the influence of the devil.

I have further seen people use the devil as a justification for believing that other religions are his deception to keep people away from Christianity.

I know there is evil in the world but I don't believe in a devil as the anthropomorphic personification of that evil.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" :)

[gpd®]

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?

"Woe unto them who call evil, good, and good, evil" [Isaiah 5:20]

[TaylorW65]

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" :)


There is no devil behind the curtain. I have seen Christians give more time and attention to the devil than to God. Some show more faith in a devil that will harm than in God who will protect them.

[Abel]

There is no devil behind the curtain. I have seen Christians give more time and attention to the devil than to God. Some show more faith in a devil that will harm than in God who will protect them.

Jesus spent more time preaching about the dangers of Hell than Heaven. Some of us are following His lead. I consider myself in good company.

[TaylorW65]

Jesus spent more time preaching about the dangers of Hell than Heaven. Some of us are following His lead. I consider myself in good company.

I have heard that myth before. I am following his lead in trying to love God with all my heart, mind and strength and also my fellow man.

In the end it's all about LOVE.

[gpd®]

Jesus spent more time preaching about the dangers of Hell than Heaven. Some of us are following His lead. I consider myself in good company.


I thought the Gospel was more about grace than anything other topic.

[Abel]

I have heard that myth before. I am following his lead in trying to love God with all my heart, mind and strength and also my fellow man.

In the end it's all about LOVE.

I would agree with you, but what would you consider to be the greatest act of LOVE?

[Abel]

I thought the Gospel was more about grace than anything other topic.

It is. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is God giving to us what we do not deserve. With that being said, what do we deserve?

[gpd®]

I would agree with you, but what would you consider to be the greatest act of LOVE?

Throwing yourself on a handgrenade.

Jumping in front of a bus to push someone out of the way.

Taking a bullet for a friend.

Etc, etc, etc.:D

[gpd®]

It is. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is God giving to us what we do not deserve. With that being said, what do we deserve?

Same thing any other dirty rag deserves, a round in the washing machine with a lot of bleach.;)

[Semi-Sweet]

Why wasn't Satan destroyed instead of thousands of people?

As I understand it, Satan has usurped a low level position of authority on this planet that was supposed to belong to the human race. This planet is like an apartment that has a tenant who resides here in spite of the fact that he has violated the lease. He has received his eviction notice, but the Sheriff has not showed up yet to physically kicked him out.

Where is this found in Scripture?

I do find this from James.

Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

"Drawn away," shows the beginning step, drawn away from truth and virtue.

There is much deceit, cunning adn flattery in sin to gain people to its interests. And, there is much violence done to man's conscience by the power of deceit and corruption. The power of sin could never draw away were it not for its guile and cunning. Man destroys himself. His sin is at his own door and therefore his blood lies upon his own head.

Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

It seems that there is a long scenario that has to be played out before Satan is cast into the lake of fire forever (Rev. 20:10).
This will be after he has tormented and deceived people of the current world order, after he has been bound for 1000 years, and after he has led the final rebellion (Rev 20:7-8).

I disagree with this scenario. I am a preterist. . . :)

How much influence does Satan have now?

To say that he is the cause of all of the problems in the world is superstition.

To say that he is a non-factor in today's world is blindness, IMHO.

Satan causes grief and confusion, but he is not invincible.

I don't make Satan a scapegoat for my mistakes, and confusion, I take all of the blame. . . .:angel:

[Abel]

Throwing yourself on a handgrenade.

Jumping in front of a bus to push someone out of the way.

Taking a bullet for a friend.

Etc, etc, etc.:D

Exactly. Giving your life to save the life of a friend. This is what Jesus did. He gave His life so that we would not loose our lives in Hell. We still die physically, but Jesus died so we would not die spiritually.

[HokieCougarVandal]

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?

Dating: "I don't want you to change."

Engagement: "Maybe we could change this, but I'm OK if it doesn't work out."

Newlywed: "Would you change this for me, please."

After (x) kids / (x) years: "Why won't you change?"

:mrgreen:

[gpd®]

I don't make Satan a scapegoat for my mistakes, and confusion, I take all of the blame. . . .:angel:

Hi SS. Barring our own mistakes of course, what would you consider to be something that we could directly blame Satan for?

[TaylorW65]

I would agree with you, but what would you consider to be the greatest act of LOVE?

To gives one life for others.

[Abel]

Same thing any other dirty rag deserves, a round in the washing machine with a lot of bleach.;)

Unfortunately, a washing machine with bleach is not what God says we deserve. God said the wages of sin is death. That is what we have earned. Eternal death as a result of our sins. It is God's mercy that we are not consumed in death (Hell), and His grace that gives us life (Heaven).

[meggers49]

The Bible reveals Satan as the master of counterfeits; the father of lies and confusion.

A prime example is the account of Moses and Aaron in Pharaoh's court.
When Aaron cast a rod on the ground that turned into a serpent, Pharaoh's magicians followed suit. There was a whole bunch of snakes squirming on the ground.

So began a series of events; God would produce something through His servants and then Pharaohs magicians would perform an equivalent feat. Up to a point.

Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly.

The Bible also tells us that Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming.

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?

how do i word this? I think it's that pride or self should come first. It's an insidious problem and from it most of the ills of society stem. I think it comes from the serpent's lie that "you shall be like gods' and people's constant effort to be the focal point of their life, instead of others.

[TaylorW65]

It is. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is God giving to us what we do not deserve. With that being said, what do we deserve?


I think there is a big difference between unearned favor and undeserved favor. I think Grace is a gift, we don't have to earn it. I think the term undeserved is how negative critical parents treat their children based on a scae of judgments. I think that is a very human way of looking and what is deserved and what is not deserved and we project all of that onto the big invisible parent in the sky.

I think God transcends our human way of looking at things.

We are the object of God's love. I try to keep it simple. God's grace therefore is his gift to us which we do not have to work to earn.

[Abel]

To gives one life for others.

This is correct. That is what Jesus Christ did. So why did Jesus give His life for others? To keep us from Hell.

I cannot preach Heaven without also preaching the dangers of Hell. Since Jesus died to keep us out of Hell, it would be a disservice to Him not to warn others of that which He died for.

[TaylorW65]

Unfortunately, a washing machine with bleach is not what God says we deserve. God said the wages of sin is death. That is what we have earned. Eternal death as a result of our sins. It is God's mercy that we are not consumed in death (Hell), and His grace that gives us life (Heaven).

But you take away the meaning of death when you make it synonymous with Hell.

So in truth the body is the only thing that dies and that goes to the grave (some scholars attribute the grave as being synonymous with Hell) but the soul never dies.

So the wages of sin is death of the body and not of the soul. Our soul is immortal and will return to God upon the conclusion of this life.

[Abel]

I think there is a big difference between unearned favor and undeserved favor. I think Grace is a gift, we don't have to earn it. I think the term undeserved is how negative critical parents treat their children based on a scae of judgments. I think that is a very human way of looking and what is deserved and what is not deserved and we project all of that onto the big invisible parent in the sky.

I think God transcends our human way of looking at things.

We are the object of God's love. I try to keep it simple. God's grace therefore is his gift to us which we do not have to work to earn.

Grace is indeed a gift from God. We do not have to work for it. However, this free gift must be received God's way. That way is by faith. God will not slip eternal grace into someone's pocket who refuses to accept it His way.

[TaylorW65]

This is correct. That is what Jesus Christ did. So why did Jesus give His life for others? To keep us from Hell.

I cannot preach Heaven without also preaching the dangers of Hell. Since Jesus died to keep us out of Hell, it would be a disservice to Him not to warn others of that which He died for.

I am a Christian universalist and I do not beleive in the punishment in Hell for all eternity. I have explained this to death (no pun intended) in another thread.

But let me just say this: if the focus of Spirituality is nothing more than where is a person going to spend eternity then that is not enough for me. I find Fundamentalist Christianity to be narrowly focused on the sin and salvation message and eternal destiny.

I need a spirituality that is focused on the here and now and living life today. I feel I am trusting God with my eternal destiny but that will not help me in learning how to live my life today.

[Abel]

But you take away the meaning of death when you make it synonymous with Hell.

So in truth the body is the only thing that dies and that goes to the grave (some scholars attribute the grave as being synonymous with Hell) but the soul never dies.

So the wages of sin is death of the body and not of the soul. Our soul is immortal and will return to God upon the conclusion of this life.

Ye do err in that you know not the scriptures. Death is synonymous with Hell: Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

[Semi-Sweet]

Hi SS. Barring our own mistakes of course, what would you consider to be something that we could directly blame Satan for?

Hey gpd, I am thinking. . . . .:think:

Will get back to you on this.

[TaylorW65]

Grace is indeed a gift from God. We do not have to work for it. However, this free gift must be received God's way. That way is by faith. God will not slip eternal grace into someone's pocket who refuses to accept it His way.

The way to receive it is by faith, simple childlike trust. It is not really a requirement it is more of the methodology God uses. But even if a person doesn't choose to accept the gift it is always there ready for the taking.

[TaylorW65]

Ye do err in that you know not the scriptures. Death is synonymous with Hell: Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

I do know the scriptures. I am also well read on some very liberal Biblical scholars and there are many of us who disagree with your interpretation.

[orbitaldecay]

What are all you people talking about?! There is no devil.




;)

[TaylorW65]

What are all you people talking about?! There is no devil.




;)

On that you are correct.

[Tim]

What are all you people talking about?! There is no devil.

;)

Where's Koushi... that's a softball for him if ever I saw one. :)):))

[HokieCougarVandal]

Where's Koushi... that's a softball for him if ever I saw one. :)):))
Indeed

[Gem]

The Bible reveals Satan as the master of counterfeits; the father of lies and confusion.

A prime example is the account of Moses and Aaron in Pharaoh's court.
When Aaron cast a rod on the ground that turned into a serpent, Pharaoh's magicians followed suit. There was a whole bunch of snakes squirming on the ground.

So began a series of events; God would produce something through His servants and then Pharaohs magicians would perform an equivalent feat. Up to a point.

Satan can produce counterfeits that are obvious and ugly.

The Bible also tells us that Satan often presents himself as an "angel of light". He can be extremely subtle and charming.

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?


Obama in this life time .

[ROBERTENEAL]

Obama in this life time .

I think that Obama is about as subtle as a Mack truck loaded with dynamite in the middle of a forest fire.

In one of the earlier posts, someone said that "you will not die" was the most subtle deception. That is close.

Adam and Eve did not immediately drop over dead after they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So they all of a sudden had the knowledge of good and evil, and they were still alive.

Did they know anything that they did not know before? Did they feel any different?

I think that the answer to both of these questions is no. They felt fine, and they knew that good was better than evil, just like before.

The difference was that they now saw the knowledge of good and evil, (in and of itself, from a strictly human perspective, independently from a relationship with God) as being sufficient.

There is nothing wrong with obtaining all of the knowledge you can get. That is what you are supposed to do.

The problem comes when you think that the "knowledge of good and evil" is all you need; and that IMO is the most subtle deception.

[TaylorW65]

I think that Obama is about as subtle as a Mack truck loaded with dynamite in the middle of a forest fire.

In one of the earlier posts, someone said that "you will not die" was the most subtle deception. That is close.

Adam and Eve did not immediately drop over dead after they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So they all of a sudden had the knowledge of good and evil, and they were still alive.

Did they know anything that they did not know before? Did they feel any different?

I think that the answer to both of these questions is no. They felt fine, and they knew that good was better than evil, just like before.

The difference was that they now saw the knowledge of good and evil, (in and of itself, from a strictly human perspective, independently from a relationship with God) as being sufficient.

There is nothing wrong with obtaining all of the knowledge you can get. That is what you are supposed to do.

The problem comes when you think that the "knowledge of good and evil" is all you need; and that IMO is the most subtle deception.

Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is a recounting of actual historical events?

[ROBERTENEAL]

Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is a recounting of actual historical events?

I don't understand everything that is written in the first few chapters of Genesis. There are those who can present a good argument for the historical accuracy of Genesis chapter 3, but I am not one of them.

However, I do believe that there was a time when the human race decided to embrace a mentality and an economy that is opposed to God's mentality and God's economy.

If you want a yes or no answer, I would have to say yes, the story of Adam and Eve is something that I accept as historic fact.

Maybe I am just of them iggerunt Bible thumpers who don't like science and logic too good. :mad:

[TaylorW65]

I don't understand everything that is written in the first few chapters of Genesis. There are those who can present a good argument for the historical accuracy of Genesis chapter 3, but I am not one of them.

However, I do believe that there was a time when the human race decided to embrace a mentality and an economy that is opposed to God's mentality and God's economy.

If you want a yes or no answer, I would have to say yes, the story of Adam and Eve is something that I accept as historic fact.

Maybe I am just of them iggerunt Bible thumpers who don't like science and logic too good. :mad:

I actually love discussing religious beliefs. I am just as passionate about mine as other people are about theirs. So even when I may disagree with them I do not name call people. :)

[ROBERTENEAL]

I actually love discussing religious beliefs. I am just as passionate about mine as other people are about theirs. So even when I may disagree with them I do not name call people. :)

That is a good policy.

But what are the possibilities that Genesis chapters 1, 2, and 3 present?

If it is true that Adam and Eve bought a bill of goods that we continue to subscribe to even now, what does that tell us about our knowledge of prehistory? Maybe there was a long time period that we know very little about, in spite of the research technology that is available in the 21st century .

If we are able to figure things out (as well we should), don't we also have the ability to deceive ourselves?

And then add a malevolent spiritual force who gets his kicks by propagating lies and causing confusion to a world that is already confused enough because of human nature.

Truth vs. fiction. Just like the serpent in Pharaohs court that materialized when Aaron's rod hit the ground; the magicians followed suit and pretty soon you couldn't tell the difference between Aaron's snake and the multitude of snakes that were produced when magicians cast their sticks. The only thing you could be sure of was that there was a swarm of snakes on the ground.

For every serpent that was produced by God's servant, there were several servants produced by Pharaoh's servants.

For every truth, there are many lies.

Is the knowledge of good and evil, of and by itself, all you need?

Do all religions produce the same amount of truth?

Sometimes it seems like there are a lot more questions than there are answers; but how did the world get to be that way?

[Semi-Sweet]

Hi SS. Barring our own mistakes of course, what would you consider to be something that we could directly blame Satan for?

IMO Satan is not a person. He is more like a 'personification'. The name is Hebrew, but the word "Satan" means . . ."an adversary" or "the opposing one".

John 8:44. . "You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Who did Satan murder? We are told that Cain was a murderer, and Eve lusted for the forbidden fruit, she gave it to Adam and he ate it. The three of them were drawn away from being obedient to God by their own lusts.

It seems to me that man's lower nature is his worst enemy.

[Fig Tree]

What, in your opinion, is the most subtle deception in the world?

That there is plenty of time in your life.

[Fig Tree]

Why Satan? Men are evil and deceiving.


I agree, even though Satan was there in the Garden and tempted Eve, it was not Satan that crammed the fruit of the tree down her throught, she chose, and onced enveloped in the sinful act, like the downward spiral that acts of sin cause, she wanted others to partake of the sin with her and gave it to Adam. She did not cram the fruit down Adam's throught either, so Adam too is fully gilty. So Eve was evil in the commiting of the sin and being a stumbling block for Adam, Adam was guilty of the sin and also of another sin that sometimes is overlooked...his first words were not blaming the women but blaming GOD himself for creating the women that gave him the fruit...how quickly we are to blame God for our misgivings than to look at oursleves first.

Genesis 3:

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

[ROBERTENEAL]

That there is plenty of time in your life.

I have been to a lot of funerals in the past several years (family members and friends).

Each one brings a sobering sense of mortality. Any day could be the last one.

[ROBERTENEAL]

IMO Satan is not a person. He is more like a 'personification'. The name is Hebrew, but the word "Satan" means . . ."an adversary" or "the opposing one".

John 8:44. . "You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Who did Satan murder? We are told that Cain was a murderer, and Eve lusted for the forbidden fruit, she gave it to Adam and he ate it. The three of them were drawn away from being obedient to God by their own lusts.

It seems to me that man's lower nature is his worst enemy.

One theory about the temptation in the garden involves the serpent speaking from an animal's perspective with no outside influence, spiritual or otherwise
From an animal perspective, there is no reason why you should ever deny yourself anything. If you are hungry you should eat the first thing that looks good, that is why God put it there.

From the serpent's perspective, it was ridiculous for anyone to think on a higher level than that.

The serpent convinced the first people that they should think like the lower animals, who based their relationship with God on nothing more than the basic instincts that God gave them.

I think that animal instincts played a part in the original temptation, but that there is more to it than that. I think that there was also an outside spiritual influence involved.