What we really need to learn from our Founding Fathers

[dane28]

Whenever we hear that we need to get back to the ways of the Founders of America, it usually has to do with the ideas of limited government, personal liberty, free enterprise, etc. All of these things are good ideas and should be valued, but do you know where they got these ideas? The Bible. How many of you have heard this quote from Patrick Henry? Here it is: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly, or too often, that this nation was not founded by religionists, but by Christians. Not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

I once attended a David Barton speaking event (for those of you who don't know David Barton, he founded WallBuilders, and is also an expert on American History) and you would not believe how much evidence he showed for the influence of the Bible in America and American law. Here are some Bible verse references he showed: 1.) civil rights-Acts 17:26, Revelation 7:9. 2.) Free enterprise-1 Timothy 5:8, 2 Thessolonians 3:10. 3.) Private property-Exodus 20:15.

The list goes on, but my point is this: We need to get back to the Founding Fathers' ideas that the Bible is still valid and is essential to a countriy's economic success as well as its freedom. We sure aren't heeding Biblical principles right now, and where are we?

I would encourage you to read some of the Founders' documents. It won't be hard to see where they got their beliefs: The Bible. It made our country great and prosperous.

Don't you want America to be that way in 2009?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

[jwil59]

I do not see how those verses have anything to do with a free market. One is about taking care of relatives and the other is about work.

I do believe the Bible is valid but not to make some kinda political point. I'm good with the founding fathers too. But the Decleration Of Independence was written by a man that denied the diety and authority of Jesus Christ

Read this book: Which Real Jesus - Steve Bateman. It is all about the founding fathers and their view of Jesus.

Welcome to the forum

[vir doctus]

(for those of you who don't know David Barton, he founded WallBuilders, and is also an expert on American History)

He's a fraud who got caught making things up.

[smyrna]

Whenever we hear that we need to get back to the ways of the Founders of America, it usually has to do with the ideas of limited government, personal liberty, free enterprise, etc. All of these things are good ideas and should be valued, but do you know where they got these ideas? The Bible. How many of you have heard this quote from Patrick Henry? Here it is: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly, or too often, that this nation was not founded by religionists, but by Christians. Not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

I once attended a David Barton speaking event (for those of you who don't know David Barton, he founded WallBuilders, and is also an expert on American History) and you would not believe how much evidence he showed for the influence of the Bible in America and American law. Here are some Bible verse references he showed: 1.) civil rights-Acts 17:26, Revelation 7:9. 2.) Free enterprise-1 Timothy 5:8, 2 Thessolonians 3:10. 3.) Private property-Exodus 20:15.

The list goes on, but my point is this: We need to get back to the Founding Fathers' ideas that the Bible is still valid and is essential to a countriy's economic success as well as its freedom. We sure aren't heeding Biblical principles right now, and where are we?

I would encourage you to read some of the Founders' documents. It won't be hard to see where they got their beliefs: The Bible. It made our country great and prosperous.

Don't you want America to be that way in 2009?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

Well it all sounds good. Now that you understand the program, can you stay the course? Will you lose your values and morals to make that mortgage payment? When all is said and done...about all you can account for is yourself. Be a great example of all that you said for all to see until you sleep.

[Thank you Troops]

God promises to bless 1,000 generations of those that put their faith in him. All of America has been receiving the blessings because of our Founding Father's faith in God. That is a lesson we should all learn. Do we want to bless our future generations, take them to church and teach them the ways of God. Write them on our heart and fence posts.

Exodus 35: 5-7
5 Then the LORD came down in a cloud and stood there with him; and he called out his own name, Yahweh. 6 The LORD passed in front of Moses, calling out,

"Yahweh! The LORD!
The God of compassion and mercy!
I am slow to anger
and filled with unfailing love and faithfulness.
I lavish unfailing love to a thousand generations.
I forgive iniquity, rebellion, and sin.
But I do not excuse the guilty.
I lay the sins of the parents upon their children and grandchildren;
the entire family is affected—
even children in the third and fourth generations."

[agoodfoundation]

I do not see how those verses have anything to do with a free market. One is about taking care of relatives and the other is about work.

I do believe the Bible is valid but not to make some kinda political point. I'm good with the founding fathers too. But the Decleration Of Independence was written by a man that denied the diety and authority of Jesus Christ

Read this book: Which Real Jesus - Steve Bateman. It is all about the founding fathers and their view of Jesus.

Welcome to the forum


for denying the deity of Christ, the founding fathers sure did use the BIBle alot.

Why would they have a form of godliness but deny the Power thereof? and then make the whole nation foiunded on Christian priciples? why not another Religion? Why Christianity?

[pinqy]

Whenever we hear that we need to get back to the ways of the Founders of America, it usually has to do with the ideas of limited government, personal liberty, free enterprise, etc. All of these things are good ideas and should be valued, but do you know where they got these ideas? The Bible.Only the Bible? No influence at all from Ancient Greece or Rome? No influence at all from Edmund Burke, John Locke, David Hume, Jean-Jacques Rousseau?

How many of you have heard this quote from Patrick Henry? Here it is: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly, or too often, that this nation was not founded by religionists, but by Christians. Not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ." And Thomas Paine wrote "The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

Since neither man had anything to do with the Constitution, despite their great contributions towards the Revolution, are either of their writings on religion all that relevant to our actual government?

The list goes on, but my point is this: We need to get back to the Founding Fathers' ideas that the Bible is still valid and is essential to a countriy's economic success as well as its freedom. What, exactly, are you proposing? Details and implentations, please.

We sure aren't heeding Biblical principles right now, and where are we? Women, ethnic/racial minorities, Jews, Catholics, Atheists/Agnostics, Muslims, etc are all much much better off now than they were in 1789.


Wisdom from the Constitution: Article VI:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.And yes, it was known and accepted that this would allow Jews, Muslims and other non-Christians to hold office. Granted, they didn't think it all that likely that a Muslim of Jew would be elected, but they did mean this clause to allow it as contrasted by the religious tests in most states.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...Until the 14th Ammendment, this did not apply to the States, but many of the States took their cue and abolished their State religions and gave more freedom of religion as well. The clear intent was that no religion, even a generalized "Christianity," was to have any greater official sanction than any other religious viewpoint.

Ammendment XIV
Section 1.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.Meaning that if the Federal government can't do it, neither can the States (as far as protected rights). Preferences towards any religious belief is necessarily abridging the privileges and/or immunites of those with differing beliefs and certainly denying them equal protection.

[Abel]

The author of our Constitution, James Madison, based the three divisions of the government (Legislative, Judicial, Executive) on a verse he knew in the Bible. Isaiah 33:22 "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us."

The very government that attempts to separate itself from the Bible is a result of the Bible.

[pinqy]

The author of our Constitution, James Madison, based the three divisions of the government (Legislative, Judicial, Executive) on a verse he knew in the Bible. Isaiah 33:22 "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us."
I'd really like to see a cite from Madison's writings that confirm this. But I won't hold my breath.

[Abel]

I'd really like to see a cite from Madison's writings that confirm this. But I won't hold my breath.

Here you go: http://www.eadshome.com/

There are several quotes from the founding fathers at this site with supporting evidence.

[vir doctus]

The author of our Constitution, James Madison, based the three divisions of the government (Legislative, Judicial, Executive) on a verse he knew in the Bible. Isaiah 33:22 "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us."

Could you please help me out here with an actual primary source. I've looked through the Virginia Plan and notes from the Convention and just can't find it?

This might help you: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/debcont.asp

[vir doctus]

Here you go: http://www.eadshome.com/

There are several quotes from the founding fathers at this site with supporting evidence.

Not a primary source.

[Thor]

God promises to bless 1,000 generations of those that put their faith in him.

So, the people in the 1,001st generation are not blessed?

All of America has been receiving the blessings because of our Founding Father's faith in God.

Really? We have received "blessings because of our Founding Fathers faith in God"? What "blessings" are you talking about? I must also mention that most of the Founding Fathers were men of the Enlightenment who did not believe in the God of the Bible.

[Abel]

So, the people in the 1,001st generation are not blessed?



Really? We have received "blessings because of our Founding Fathers faith in God"? What "blessings" are you talking about? I must also mention that most of the Founding Fathers were men of the Enlightenment who did not believe in the God of the Bible.

We have absolutely been blessed as a result of our founding fathers Christian beliefs. You ask "What blessings"? Are you serious? This is the greatest country in the world. We are blessed with sustance, protection, peace, natural resources, the list goes on.

If you read the writings of the majority (not all) of our founding fathers you will realize your statement of them not believing the God of the Bible to be dead wrong.

BTW, as our country drifts farther away from God, our blessings become fewer and fewer. As has been evident for about the last 50 years.

[Chuangtzu]

Republic.
Liberty.
Democracy.
Constitution.
Isonomy (necessary for the development of individual rights).

Greco-Roman pagan origins.

Plus, pagan Native American influence.

Christianity, it's virtues aside, promotes kingship, not Constitutional self-government.

[gpd®]

Christianity, it's virtues aside, promotes kingship, not Constitutional self-government.

Might it be possible that something as simple as, "Thou shalt not steal," be a foreshadow of the right to private property, free enterprise and self-government?

I tend to think so. God uses the simple things to confound the wise as we like to believe.

[vir doctus]

BTW, as our country drifts farther away from God, our blessings become fewer and fewer. As has been evident for about the last 50 years.

Please study history.

[Chuangtzu]

Might it be possible that something as simple as, "Thou shalt not steal," be a foreshadow of the right to private property, free enterprise and self-government?

I tend to think so. God uses the simple things to confound the wise as we like to believe.

"Thou shalt not steal" prohibits theft. It doesn't establish free enterprise, or self-government. Prohibitions against theft are common to nearly all economies, and organizations of society.

[Thank you Troops]

Really? We have received "blessings because of our Founding Fathers faith in God"? What "blessings" are you talking about? I must also mention that most of the Founding Fathers were men of the Enlightenment who did not believe in the God of the Bible.

What country would you rather live in than America?

[gpd®]

"Thou shalt not steal" prohibits theft. It doesn't establish free enterprise, or self-government. Prohibitions against theft are common to nearly all economies, and organizations of society.

Ah yes, but it proves that God regarded private property as sacred and private property is one of the pillars of self-government.

[Abel]

Please study history.

I have. That's why I'm able to make that statement.

[pinqy]

Here you go: http://www.eadshome.com/

There are several quotes from the founding fathers at this site with supporting evidence.
umm that's just someone else saying that's the reason Madison suggested 3 branches. And since the other Madison quotations are at best misleading, I wouldn't rely on that site. Madison was devout, but strongly in favor of seperation of church and state. Read Memorial and Remonstrance (http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/jm4/writings/memor.htm) where he opposed funding religious teachers.

That site also makes the claim "In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. " which is true but misleading. Looking at The Senate Journal (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?hlaw:3:./temp/~ammem_5l1k::) we read
Mr. Leib presented the memorial of the managers of the Bible Society of Philadelphia, stating that, to enable them to promote the object of the institution, the gratuitous distribution of the sacred Scriptures, they had ordered, in the year 1809, a set of stereotype plates from England, and praying that these plates may be exonerated from the additional duties since imposed on British manufactures; and the memorial was read. In other words, they ordered some plates in 1809 but a new tariff was put in place in 1812 (the war and all) and they wanted an exemption. In no way was this a bill whose purpose was to help the Society in their work.

And the Madison Ten Commandments quotation has never been documented.

[Chuangtzu]

Ah yes, but it proves that God regarded private property as sacred and private property is one of the pillars of self-government.

It reveals only that a written text recorded theft as forbidden. It does not demonstrate that private property was protected, only that taking could be punished. And in a society where tribal elders, proto-kings and kings control the bulk of property, as well as the human property of slaves, protecting that property by punishing thieves is protecting the power of leaders, including their power to enslave.

It also does not establish that private property is a pillar of self-government

[vir doctus]

I have. That's why I'm able to make that statement.

If you say so. :))

[Abel]

umm that's just someone else saying that's the reason Madison suggested 3 branches. And since the other Madison quotations are at best misleading, I wouldn't rely on that site. Madison was devout, but strongly in favor of seperation of church and state. Read Memorial and Remonstrance (http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/jm4/writings/memor.htm) where he opposed funding religious teachers.

That site also makes the claim "In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. " which is true but misleading. Looking at The Senate Journal (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?hlaw:3:./temp/~ammem_5l1k::) we read In other words, they ordered some plates in 1809 but a new tariff was put in place in 1812 (the war and all) and they wanted an exemption. In no way was this a bill whose purpose was to help the Society in their work.

And the Madison Ten Commandments quotation has never been documented.

You wouldn't rely on this site because it opposes what you want to believe. So be it. It's misleading to you because that is not the direction you want to be led. That's fine, but it is what it is.

BTW, have you documented everything that you have ever said or accomplished in your life? Wouldn't want anyone to call into question what you may have said or may not have said.

[agoodfoundation]

:hug:We have absolutely been blessed as a result of our founding fathers Christian beliefs. You ask "What blessings"? Are you serious? This is the greatest country in the world. We are blessed with sustance, protection, peace, natural resources, the list goes on.

If you read the writings of the majority (not all) of our founding fathers you will realize your statement of them not believing the God of the Bible to be dead wrong.

BTW, as our country drifts farther away from God, our blessings become fewer and fewer. As has been evident for about the last 50 years.



:hug:

[pinqy]

You wouldn't rely on this site because it opposes what you want to believe. So be it. It's misleading to you because that is not the direction you want to be led. That's fine, but it is what it is.

Are you seriously claiming that the mention of the Bible Society of Philadelphia was NOT misleading?????

Read Memorial and Remonstrance (I'm quite sure you haven't) and tell me how that fits with the claims that Madison was opposed to Church/State seperation. Or are you saying the site doesn't try to imply that?

[gpd®]

It reveals only that a written text recorded theft as forbidden. It does not demonstrate that private property was protected, only that taking could be punished. And in a society where tribal elders, proto-kings and kings control the bulk of property, as well as the human property of slaves, protecting that property by punishing thieves is protecting the power of leaders, including their power to enslave.

It also does not establish that private property is a pillar of self-government

Safe to assume that you don't believe that the right to private ownership is a subset of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

[gpd®]

I do not see how those verses have anything to do with a free market. One is about taking care of relatives and the other is about work.

I do believe the Bible is valid but not to make some kinda political point. I'm good with the founding fathers too. But the Decleration Of Independence was written by a man that denied the diety and authority of Jesus Christ

Read this book: Which Real Jesus - Steve Bateman. It is all about the founding fathers and their view of Jesus.

Welcome to the forum

That was one man which liberals like to quote quite freely. 54 of the 56 framers of the constitution were openly Christian and many considered themselves "born again."

Of course revisionist history would like to forget about those other 54 "signers."

[gpd®]

The author of our Constitution, James Madison, based the three divisions of the government (Legislative, Judicial, Executive) on a verse he knew in the Bible. Isaiah 33:22 "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us."

The very government that attempts to separate itself from the Bible is a result of the Bible.

Remember, the "Balance of Power" was invented because the founding Christian fathers believed that "man is inherently evil and in need oversight."

If man is inherently good like liberal philosophy claims, we wouldn't need a "balance of power." We could just have a single democratic leader that we all believe is "inherently good."

[Chuangtzu]

Safe to assume that you don't believe that the right to private ownership is a subset of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

It is never "safe to assume."

[Abel]

Are you seriously claiming that the mention of the Bible Society of Philadelphia was NOT misleading?????

Read Memorial and Remonstrance (I'm quite sure you haven't) and tell me how that fits with the claims that Madison was opposed to Church/State seperation. Or are you saying the site doesn't try to imply that?

You are correct in that I had never read Memorial and Remonstrance before. Thank you very much for pointing me in that direction.

After reading it, though I believe you may be the one doing the misleading. Monroe wrote this in opposition to the government having any type of control over religion, not to keep religion out of the government.

Monroe felt that religion, specifically Christianity, was to be practiced by all people of America. Please notice the following quotes:

Paragraph 1 Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe.

Paragraph 2 Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body.

Paragraph 4 Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us

To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered

Paragraph 12 Because the policy of the Bill is adverse to the diffusion of the light of Christianity. The first wish of those who enjoy this precious gift ought to be that it may be imparted to the whole race of mankind. Compare the number of those who have as yet received it with the number still remaining under the dominion of false Religions

Notice Monroe referred to those outside of Christianity as belonging to false religions. These are his words not mine. Monroe did not want the government to control religion and have Christianity ruined or come under comdemnation as it had during the Inquistion as he mentioned.

Thanks again.

[vir doctus]

You wouldn't rely on this site because it opposes what you want to believe. So be it. It's misleading to you because that is not the direction you want to be led. That's fine, but it is what it is.


It is in opposition to reality. I hate that Christians make arguments based on lies.

[Thor]

We have absolutely been blessed as a result of our founding fathers Christian beliefs.

Yes, there were Christians among the Founding Fathers. However, most of the Founding Fathers were NOT Christian.

You ask "What blessings"? Are you serious? This is the greatest country in the world. We are blessed with sustance, protection, peace, natural resources, the list goes on.


Yes, I'm quite serious. I'm curious to know what "blessings" you think we enjoy because of the Founding Fathers Christian beliefs.

What makes you think these "blessings" are directly a result of someone's beliefs two+ centuries ago? Are you saying we wouldn't enjoy "sustenance, protection, peace," etc.. if the Founding Fathers were Buddhists?

Also, there are plenty of nations that have strong religious beliefs, yet they don't enjoy what we do. Mexico, for one, is a strongly Christian nation. Yet they suffer poverty, corruption, drug cartels, violence, etc. Apparently, their beliefs don't translate into "sustenance, peace, protection...".

The religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers has nothing to do with anything that you mention. If it did, how can you explain these things from our history:

Indian wars
The burning of Washington during the War of 1812
Slavery
The massacre at Lawrence, Kansas
The Civil War
Lincoln's assassination
Reconstruction violence
The KKK
Subjugation of blacks, Jim Crow laws and lynchings
The Great Depression
Pearl Harbor
9/11

This is just scratching the surface, but I think you get the point.

[Thor]

What country would you rather live in than America?

None. My question was not meant to denigrate this great land, but to ascertain what "blessings" Abel thinks we have due to someone's religious beliefs 230 years ago.

[Thor]

That was one man which liberals like to quote quite freely. 54 of the 56 framers of the constitution were openly Christian and many considered themselves "born again."

Of course revisionist history would like to forget about those other 54 "signers."

Uh.... no, they weren't. Most of the Founding Fathers were definitely NOT Christians. And there were 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, not 56 framers of the Constitution.

[gpd®]

It is never "safe to assume."

A cliché is a cliché because more times than not it is true. So I guess your cliché vs. my cliché leaves us at an impasse.:)

[gpd®]

Uh.... no, they weren't. Most of the Founding Fathers were definitely NOT Christians. And there were 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, not 56 framers of the Constitution.

I dunno? I count 56 (ETA, my bad maybe 55?):

Baldwin, Abraham
Bassett, Richard
Bedford, Gunning, Jr.
Blair, John
Blount, William
Brearly, David
Broom, Jacob
Butler, Pierce
Carroll, Daniel
Clymer, George
Davie, William R.
Dayton, Jonathan
Dickinson, John
Ellsworth, Oliver
Few, William
Fitzsimons, Thomas
Franklin, Benjamin
Gerry, Elbridge
Gilman, Nicholas
Gorham, Nathaniel
Hamilton, Alexander
Houston, William C.
Houstoun, William
Ingersoll, Jared
Jenifer, Daniel of St. Thomas
Johnson, William S.
King, Rufus
Langdon, John
Lansing, John, Jr.
Livingston, William
Madison, James
Martin, Alexander
Martin, Luther
Mason, George
McClurg, James
McHenry, James
Mercer, John F.
Mifflin, Thomas
Morris, Gouverneur
Morris, Robert
Paterson, William
Pierce, William L.
Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth
Pinckney, Charles
Randolph, Edmund J.
Read, George
Rutledge, John
Sherman, Roger
Spaight, Richard D.
Strong, Caleb
Washington, George
Williamson, Hugh
Wilson, James
Wythe, George
Yates, Robert

[gpd®]

And here are the signers of the Declaration of Independence, also 56 (ETA definitely 56):

Name
Adams, John
Adams, Samuel
Bartlett, Josiah
Braxton, Carter
Carroll of Carrollton, Charles
Chase, Samuel
Clark, Abraham
Clymer, George
Ellery, William
Floyd, William
Franklin, Benjamin
Gerry, Elbridge
Gwinnett, Button
Hall, Lyman
Hancock, John
Harrisson, Benjamin
Hart, John
Hewes, Joseph
Heyward Jr., Thomas
Hooper, William
Hopkins, Stephen
Hopkinson, Francis
Huntington, Samuel
Jefferson, Thomas
Lee, Francis Lightfoot
Lee, Richard Henry
Lewis, Francis
Livingston, Philip
Lynch Jr., Thomas
McKean, Thomas
Middleton, Arthur
Morris, Lewis
Morris, Robert
Morton, John
Nelson Jr., Thomas
Paca, William
Paine, Robert Treat
Penn, John
Read, George
Rodney, Caesar
Ross, George
Rush, Benjamin
Rutledge, Edward
Sherman, Roger
Smith, James
Stockton, Richard
Stone, Thomas
Taylor, George
Thornton, Matthew
Walton, George
Whipple, William
Williams, William
Wilson, James
Witherspoon, John
Wolcott, Oliver
Wythe, George

[gpd®]

For Anyone who cares about the framers and their religion:


Baldwin, Abraham -congrataionalist
Bassett, Richard -Methodist
Bedford, Gunning, Jr. -Presbyterian
Blair, John -Episcopalian
Blount, William -Presbyterian
Brearly, David -Episcopalian
Broom, Jacob -Lutheran
Butler, Pierce -Episcopalian
Carroll, Daniel -Roman Catholic
Clymer, George -Quaker/Episcopalian
Davie, William R. -Presbyterian
Dayton, Jonathan -Episcopalian
Dickinson, John -Quaker/Episcopalian
Ellsworth, Oliver -congregationalist
Few, William -Methodist
Fitzsimons, Thomas -Roman Catholic
Franklin, Benjamin -Deist
Gerry, Elbridge -Episcopalian
Gilman, Nicholas -Congragationalist
Gorham, Nathaniel -congrataionalist
Hamilton, Alexander -Episcopalian
Houston, William C. -Presbyterian
Houstoun, William -Episcopalian
Ingersoll, Jared -Presbyterian
Jenifer, Daniel of St. Thomas -Episcopalian
Johnson, William S. -Episcopalian
King, Rufus -Episcopalian
Langdon, John -congregationalist
Lansing, John, Jr. -Dutch Reformed
Livingston, William -Presbyterian
Madison, James -Episcopalian
Martin, Alexander -Presbyterian Episcopalian
Martin, Luther -Episcopalian
Mason, George -Episcopalian
McClurg, James -Presbyterian?
McHenry, James -Presbyterian
Mercer, John F. -Episcopalian
Mifflin, Thomas -Quaker/Lutheran
Morris, Gouverneur -Episcopalian
Morris, Robert -Episcopalian
Paterson, William -Presbyterian
Pierce, William L. -Episcopalian
Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth -Episcopalian
Pinckney, Charles -Episcopalian
Randolph, Edmund J. -Episcopalian
Read, George -Episcopalian
Rutledge, John -Episcopalian
Sherman, Roger -congrataionalist
Spaight, Richard D. -Episcopalian
Strong, Caleb -congrataionalist
Washington, George -Episcopalian
Williamson, Hugh -Presbyterian/Deist
Wilson, James -Presbyterian/Deist
Wythe, George -Episcopalian
Yates, Robert -Dutch Reformed

[gpd®]

And the signers of the Declaration and their religious affiliations:

Adams, John -Unitarian
Adams, Samuel -Congregationalist
Bartlett, Josiah -Congregationalist
Braxton, Carter -Episcopalian
Carroll of Carrollton, Charles -Roman Catholic
Chase, Samuel -Episcopalian
Clark, Abraham -Prebyterian
Clymer, George -Quaker/Presbyterian
Ellery, William -Congregationalist
Floyd, William -Prebyterian
Franklin, Benjamin -Deist
Gerry, Elbridge -Episcopalian
Gwinnett, Button -Episcopalian
Hall, Lyman -Congregationalist
Hancock, John -Congregationalist
Harrisson, Benjamin ?
Hart, John -Presbyterian
Hewes, Joseph -Episcopalian
Heyward Jr., Thomas ?
Hooper, William -Episcopalian
Hopkins, Stephen ?
Hopkinson, Francis -Episcopaoian
Huntington, Samuel -Congregatinaolist
Jefferson, Thomas -Deist
Lee, Francis Lightfoot ?
Lee, Richard Henry ?
Lewis, Francis ?
Livingston, Philip -Presbyterian
Lynch Jr., Thomas ?
McKean, Thomas -Prebyterian
Middleton, Arthur ?
Morris, Lewis ?
Morris, Robert -Episcopalian
Morton, John ?
Nelson Jr., Thomas ?
Paca, William -Episcopalian
Paine, Robert Treat -Congregationalist
Penn, John ?
Read, George -Episopalian
Rodney, Caesar -Episcopalian
Ross, George ?
Rush, Benjamin -Prebyterian
Rutledge, Edward -Anglican
Sherman, Roger -Congregationalist
Smith, James -Prebyterian
Stockton, Richard -Prebyterian
Stone, Thomas -Episcopalian
Taylor, George -Prebyterian
Thornton, Matthew -Prebyterian
Walton, George -Anglican
Whipple, William -Congregationalist
Williams, William -Congregationalist
Wilson, James -Episcopalian/Deist
Witherspoon, John -Prebyterian
Wolcott, Oliver -Congretationalist
Wythe, George -Episcopalian

[Abel]

Yes, I'm quite serious. I'm curious to know what "blessings" you think we enjoy because of the Founding Fathers Christian beliefs.



That would be every blessing. But don't worry, as this country drifts away from God more and more, you will begin to realize the blessings we are loosing.

As far as your list of evils our country has faced, you will see events where God was excluded from. Every where God is removed, evil moves in. Your list is a perfect example. Thank you for supporting my position.

[Abel]

Uh.... no, they weren't. Most of the Founding Fathers were definitely NOT Christians. And there were 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, not 56 framers of the Constitution.

Uh....yes, they were. They were Christians, and this country was founded upon Christian principles. There are so many writings from our founding fathers, that to deny this fact is really bewildering. Sorry, but your position is completely unfounded.

This is a fact that Thor's hammer cannot fracture.

[gpd®]

Uh....yes, they were. They were Christians, and this country was founded upon Christian principles. There are so many writings from our founding fathers, that to deny this fact is really bewildering. Sorry, but your position is completely unfounded.

This is a fact that Thor's hammer cannot fracture.

Yes, there are hundreds of minor writings by the framers of the constitution that attribute their contributions to American prinples to God and Christ. But they have been shuffled away over the last 200 years. There are many new books coming out on the subject that have located those many writings.

[Chuangtzu]

Uh....yes, they were. They were Christians, and this country was founded upon Christian principles. There are so many writings from our founding fathers, that to deny this fact is really bewildering. Sorry, but your position is completely unfounded.

This is a fact that Thor's hammer cannot fracture.

Readers may be surprised to learn that there may have been hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Muslims in the United States in 1776—imported as slaves from areas of Africa where Islam flourished. Although there is no evidence that the Founders were aware of the religious convictions of their bondsmen, it is clear that the Founding Fathers thought about the relationship of Islam to the new nation and were prepared to make a place for it in the republic.

In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."

In his autobiography, Jefferson recounted with satisfaction that in the struggle to pass his landmark Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1786), the Virginia legislature "rejected by a great majority" an effort to limit the bill's scope "in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan." George Washington suggested a way for Muslims to "obtain proper relief" from a proposed Virginia bill, laying taxes to support Christian worship. On another occasion, the first president declared that he would welcome "Mohometans" to Mount Vernon if they were "good workmen" (see page 96). Officials in Massachusetts were equally insistent that their influential Constitution of 1780 afforded "the most ample liberty of conscience … to Deists, Mahometans, Jews and Christians," a point that Chief Justice Theophilus Parsons resoundingly affirmed in 1810...

"...In 1783, the president of Yale College, Ezra Stiles, cited a study showing that "Mohammadan" morals were "far superior to the Christian." Another New Englander believed that the "moral principles that were inculcated by their teachers had a happy tendency to render them good members of society." The reference here, as other commentators made clear, was to Islam's belief, which it shared with Christianity, in a "future state of rewards and punishments," a system of celestial carrots and sticks which the Founding generation considered necessary to guarantee good social conduct.

"A Mahometan," wrote a Boston newspaper columnist, "is excited to the practice of good morals in hopes that after the resurrection he shall enjoy the beautiful girls of paradise to all eternity; he is afraid to commit murder, adultery and theft, lest he should be cast into hell, where he must drink scalding water and the scum of the damned." Benjamin Rush, the Pennsylvania signer of the Declaration of Independence and friend of Adams and Jefferson, applauded this feature of Islam, asserting that he had "rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mohammed inculcated upon our youth than see them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles."

That ordinary citizens shared these positive views is demonstrated by a petition of a group of citizens of Chesterfield County, Va., to the state assembly, Nov. 14, 1785: "Let Jews, Mehometans and Christians of every denomination enjoy religious liberty…thrust them not out now by establishing the Christian religion lest thereby we become our own enemys and weaken this infant state. It is mens labour in our Manufactories, their services by sea and land that aggrandize our Country and not their creeds. Chain your citizens to the state by their Interest. Let Jews, Mehometans, and Christians of every denomination find their advantage in living under your laws."


http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

[gpd®]

Christianity, it's virtues aside, promotes kingship, not Constitutional self-government.

Tzu, I would like to visit this comment again.

Originally God created a Patriarchal system.

The Jews insist on having a King so God conceded to their desires.

The Christians carried on the "tradition" of kingship.

Most of Western Civilization is Patriarchal.

In reality, self-government is Biblical because God's original plan of Patriarchy is a form of self-government.

Something to ponder I guess.

[Chuangtzu]

Tzu, I would like to visit this comment again.

Originally God created a Patriarchal system.

The Jews insist on having a King so God conceded to their desires.

The Christians carried on the "tradition" of kingship.

In reality, self-government is Biblical because God's original plan of Patriarchy is a form of self-government.

Something to ponder I guess.

You discover in the Bible, principles for self-government. That does not make every form of self-government "Biblical."

[gpd®]

Readers may be surprised to learn that there may have been hundreds, perhaps <snip>


http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

Good read, but I didn't think freedom of religion was the issue here. I've never had a problem with that. I thought we were talking foundational aspects of the Constituion.

The Bible is clear that aliens were always welcome with the hopes that they would assimilate into the culture of the Jew.

I am wondering if the framers ever discussed this. Not assimilating Muslims into Christianity per say, but the values that the nation was founded on.

[Thor]

That would be every blessing. But don't worry, as this country drifts away from God more and more, you will begin to realize the blessings we are loosing.


People were very much "with God" in 14th century Europe. And that was the time of the Black Plague which killed about half of Europe's population. Can you explain this apparent anomaly?

As far as your list of evils our country has faced, you will see events where God was excluded from. Every where God is removed, evil moves in. Your list is a perfect example. Thank you for supporting my position.


So, in your mind, Pearl Harbor was bombed because we somehow "excluded God"? The Great Depression happened for the same reason? And the Civil War? The KKK?

How this can make sense to you simply escapes me.

[fotc]

As far as your list of evils our country has faced, you will see events where God was excluded from. Every where God is removed, evil moves in. Your list is a perfect example. Thank you for supporting my position.

From a more objective point of view - every time in recent history where there's been economic hardship, evil moves in...

[vir doctus]

From a more objective point of view - every time in recent history where there's been economic hardship, evil moves in...

That makes no sense. Hardship is relative - and around here it is relative to luxury and comfort. I am not sure it is so much that evil is moving in...

[Abel]

People were very much "with God" in 14th century Europe. And that was the time of the Black Plague which killed about half of Europe's population. Can you explain this apparent anomaly?


So, in your mind, Pearl Harbor was bombed because we somehow "excluded God"? The Great Depression happened for the same reason? And the Civil War? The KKK?

How this can make sense to you simply escapes me.

Just because someone claims to do something in the name of God does not mean that God is actually involved in the action. During the 14th century people were told how to worship, without question, by the religious leaders of the day. These religious leaders were corrupt and greedy. The people may have been "religious" but that does not mean they were living in God's will.

Those who suffer violence and misery are not always the ones without God. They are victims of those without God.

Pearl Harbor is a perfect example of Godlessness. America was a victim of a Godless Japan. The Great Depression was a result of a Godless America. Prohibition had been repealed, America went on a drunken stuper. One main reason for the Civil War was the Godless practice of slavery. The KKK... well nothing needs to be said about how Godless they are, even though I believe most claim to be doing God's will.

I firmly stand on my conviction. Where God is removed, evil moves in.

[Thor]

Just because someone claims to do something in the name of God does not mean that God is actually involved in the action. During the 14th century people were told how to worship, without question, by the religious leaders of the day. These religious leaders were corrupt and greedy. The people may have been "religious" but that does not mean they were living in God's will.


So, because "religious leaders" were "corrupt and greedy", this god allowed half the population of a continent to be decimated? Even while these people pleaded for an end to the pestilence? This makes no sense to me.

Pearl Harbor is a perfect example of Godlessness. America was a victim of a Godless Japan.

Japan is not "godless". They practice Shintoism and Buddhism.

The Great Depression was a result of a Godless America. Prohibition had been repealed, America went on a drunken stuper.

BZZZZZZZZTTT!!!

The Great Depression began in 1929 when the stock market crashed. Prohibition wasn't repealed until 1933. The depression could not possibly have been a result of prohibition's repeal.

One main reason for the Civil War was the Godless practice of slavery.

How could slavery be "Godless" when the Bible specifically sanctions it?

I firmly stand on my conviction. Where God is removed, evil moves in.


There is no god in my house and we're doing quite well.

[Abel]

BZZZZZZZZTTT!!!

The Great Depression began in 1929 when the stock market crashed. Prohibition wasn't repealed until 1933. The depression could not possibly have been a result of prohibition's repeal.



You are absolutely correct. In my haste, I put forth bogus infornation. What I meant was the Godless, drunken stuper of the "Roaring Twenties" that led to the Great Depression. My bad.

Hey, I don't expect you to agree with me. You can make any excuse for evil you want to. But the fact remains, evil is a result of Godless people doing unGodly actions.

Just this week, a pastor was gunned down in the pulpit while preaching in St. Louis. Another man killed several members of his family in south Alabama. This does not mean those who suffered were Godless, but the killers certainly were.

[Tim]

You are absolutely correct. In my haste, I put forth bogus infornation. What I meant was the Godless, drunken stuper of the "Roaring Twenties" that led to the Great Depression. My bad.

Hey, I don't expect you to agree with me. You can make any excuse for evil you want to. But the fact remains, evil is a result of Godless people doing unGodly actions.

Just this week, a pastor was gunned down in the pulpit while preaching in St. Louis. Another man killed several members of his family in south Alabama. This does not mean those who suffered were Godless, but the killers certainly were.

Cause and effect... Think about it. ;)

[Thor]

You are absolutely correct. In my haste, I put forth bogus infornation. What I meant was the Godless, drunken stuper of the "Roaring Twenties" that led to the Great Depression. My bad.


The Great Depression was primarily caused by people who overextended themselves by purchasing stocks on credit. When the value of those stocks dropped they didn't have the cash available to cover the margin call. This caused their stocks to be sold, often wiping out their entire investment. With so many stocks being dumped on the market, prices fell even further, creating a cycle that fueled the depression. A "Godless, drunken stuper" had nothing to do with it.

Hey, I don't expect you to agree with me. You can make any excuse for evil you want to. But the fact remains, evil is a result of Godless people doing unGodly actions.


I think evil is a result of bad people doing bad things (although sometimes good people will do bad things for a good reason). If, as you believe, "evil is a result of Godless people doing unGodly actions", we should expect our prisons to be filled with atheists. This is not the case. The overwhelming majority of people in prison believe in some sort of god.

[Koushi Shinigami]

But the fact remains, evil is a result of Godless people doing unGodly actions.




And sometimes, evil is the result of Godly people doing unGodly actions.

So to simplify it, evil is the result of people turning away from God and focusing their attention on themselves.

[Koushi Shinigami]

The Great Depression was primarily caused by people who overextended themselves by purchasing stocks on credit. When the value of those stocks dropped they didn't have the cash available to cover the margin call. This caused their stocks to be sold, often wiping out their entire investment. With so many stocks being dumped on the market, prices fell even further, creating a cycle that fueled the depression. A "Godless, drunken stuper" had nothing to do with it.



Yup.

Substitute 'houses' for stocks above, and you have what is happening today.

[Tim]

The Great Depression was primarily caused by people who overextended themselves by purchasing stocks on credit. When the value of those stocks dropped they didn't have the cash available to cover the margin call. This caused their stocks to be sold, often wiping out their entire investment. With so many stocks being dumped on the market, prices fell even further, creating a cycle that fueled the depression. A "Godless, drunken stuper" had nothing to do with it.



I think evil is a result of bad people doing bad things (although sometimes good people will do bad things for a good reason). If, as you believe, "evil is a result of Godless people doing unGodly actions", we should expect our prisons to be filled with atheists. This is not the case. The overwhelming majority of people in prison believe in some sort of god.

Yep... cause and effect... it can be a tricky maze. ;)

[Marleysdaddy]

Just this week, a pastor was gunned down in the pulpit while preaching in St. Louis. Another man killed several members of his family in south Alabama. This does not mean those who suffered were Godless, but the killers certainly were.

This killer wasn't godless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Charles_Kopp

[Marleysdaddy]

I once attended a David Barton speaking event (for those of you who don't know David Barton, he founded WallBuilders, and is also an expert on American History) and you would not believe how much evidence he showed for the influence of the Bible in America and American law. Here are some Bible verse references he showed: 1.) civil rights-Acts 17:26, Revelation 7:9.

If this were the case, why didn't our founders give civil rights to all Americans? :think:

[pinqy]

After reading it, though I believe you may be the one doing the misleading. Monroe wrote this in opposition to the government having any type of control over religion, not to keep religion out of the government. He wanted government out of the religion business altogether and strongly supported Church/State seperation as Memorial and Remonstrance clearly shows.

Monroe felt that religion, specifically Christianity, was to be practiced by all people of America. Not quite. He felt that Christianity was the True Religion and that ideally everyone in the world should and would follow it. But he most definitely did NOT believe the government should help that goal in any way.


Please notice the following quotes:

Notice Monroe referred to those outside of Christianity as belonging to false religions. These are his words not mine. Monroe did not want the government to control religion and have Christianity ruined or come under comdemnation as it had during the Inquistion as he mentioned. In other words, he didn't want the Government to tell Anybody what "correct" belief should be. And that means keeping religion out of government. Whichever religious belief dominates a government the effect is to stifle and surpress the beliefs of anyone else.

[Abel]

He wanted government out of the religion business altogether and strongly supported Church/State seperation as Memorial and Remonstrance clearly shows.

Not quite. He felt that Christianity was the True Religion and that ideally everyone in the world should and would follow it. But he most definitely did NOT believe the government should help that goal in any way.


Please notice the following quotes:

[color=black][font=Arial][color=white][color=black][font=Arial][color=white][size=3][color=white][color=black][font=Arial][color=white]In other words, he didn't want the Government to tell Anybody what "correct" belief should be. And that means keeping religion out of government. Whichever religious belief dominates a government the effect is to stifle and surpress the beliefs of anyone else.


Monroe most definately wanted government out of the religious business, I would agree with you here, but not on the separation of church and state. There is a difference. He wanted government out of religion, but he said nothing about keeping religion out of government.

By your own admission Monroe felt Christianity should be followed by all people, this would have to include politicians. I wish every politician would follow Christian principles in their duties to this country.

Again, I would agree with you that Monroe did not feel government should tell any person what religion to follow, but I do not see any indication where he wanted Christianity removed from government.

[Abel]

This killer wasn't godless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Charles_Kopp

He most certainly was Godless. I do not care what label someone attaches to themselves, killing innocent people is a Godless act. Just because someone claims to be doing something in God's name does not mean God has approved the action.

[Thor]

He most certainly was Godless. I do not care what label someone attaches to themselves, killing innocent people is a Godless act. Just because someone claims to be doing something in God's name does not mean God has approved the action.

No, James Kopp was not "Godless". Saying someone is "Godless" means that they do not acknowledge a deity. James Kopp very much believes in a god.

[Abel]

No, James Kopp was not "Godless". Saying someone is "Godless" means that they do not acknowledge a deity. James Kopp very much believes in a god.

I did not say he was godless. I said he was Godless. Not all gods are God. There is a difference.

Actually "Godless" means "Without God". It really has no connection with what one acknowledges or believes: James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

He may believe in a god, but he is sadly "Without God".

[Marleysdaddy]

I did not say he was godless. I said he was Godless. Not all gods are God. There is a difference.

Actually "Godless" means "Without God". It really has no connection with what one acknowledges or believes: James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

He may believe in a god, but he is sadly "Without God".

Can he receive forgiveness and be redeemed?

[ROBERTENEAL]

I think that we could all learn a lot from the only man who signed the first four U.S. founding documents; The Articles of Association, The Declaration of Independence, The Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution. Roger Sherman was a man who "never said a foolish thing in his life" according to Thomas Jefferson. Sherman had served with Jefferson on the "Committee of Five" that produced the Declaration of Independence

Roger Sherman was a self taught man who was a shoemaker, a storekeeper, a county surveyor, an astronomer & almanac writer, a lawyer, a judge , a mayor, a legislator, a theology professor, and the father of a large family.

And yes, Roger Sherman was a Bible thumper.

[Abel]

Can he receive forgiveness and be redeemed?

He most certainly can.

[Marleysdaddy]

He most certainly can.

After redemption he would be a killer who was not Godless :think:

[Abel]

After redemption he would be a killer who was not Godless :think:

No. After salvation he would no longer be a killer. A killer is someone who kills in the present tense: Kill"er\, n. 1. One who deprives of life; one who, or that which, kills.

After he received Jesus, he would become a new creation of God's making: II Cor.5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

[Marleysdaddy]

By your own admission Monroe felt Christianity should be followed by all people, this would have to include politicians. I wish every politician would follow Christian principles in their duties to this country.


I do too...but you don't have to be a Christian to follow Christian principles.

[Marleysdaddy]

No. After salvation he would no longer be a killer. A killer is someone who kills in the present tense: Kill"er\, n. 1. One who deprives of life; one who, or that which, kills.
1) He already had salvation - I asked about redemption.
2) Your definition would mean John Wayne Gacy and Jeffery Dahmer are not killers. I disagree with that.

After he received Jesus, he would become a new creation of God's making: II Cor.5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
He received Jesus many years ago

James Kopp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Charles_Kopp) was born in Pasadena, California and raised Lutheran, but later converted to the Traditionalist Catholic Society of Saint Pius X, which rejects and condemns certain policies of Post-Vatican II Roman Catholicism.

He was affiliated with anti-abortion group "The Lambs of Christ."

[RayMan]

Haven't read whole thread. Has anyone brought up this scripture?

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

[Marleysdaddy]

Haven't read whole thread. Has anyone brought up this scripture?

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

That sure throws a wrench in the gears of OSAS, doesn't it? :think:

[RayMan]

That sure throws a wrench in the gears of OSAS, doesn't it? :think:


Not really. A true proponent of OSAS quickly learns the mantra:

"They were never really saved in the first place."

It's pretty much a one size fits all response.

[Tim]

Not really. A true proponent of OSAS quickly learns the mantra:

"They were never really saved in the first place."

It's pretty much a one size fits all response.

Yep, but first they use the "God is going to chasten you until you come back to Him and if you resist then He is going to take you home to heaven." :dance:

When the chastening doesn't come and you're still alive ten years later the "never really saved" mantra kicks into high gear. ;)

[darknessesedge]

Whenever we hear that we need to get back to the ways of the Founders of America, it usually has to do with the ideas of limited government, personal liberty, free enterprise, etc. All of these things are good ideas and should be valued, but do you know where they got these ideas? The Bible. How many of you have heard this quote from Patrick Henry? Here it is: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly, or too often, that this nation was not founded by religionists, but by Christians. Not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

I once attended a David Barton speaking event (for those of you who don't know David Barton, he founded WallBuilders, and is also an expert on American History) and you would not believe how much evidence he showed for the influence of the Bible in America and American law. Here are some Bible verse references he showed: 1.) civil rights-Acts 17:26, Revelation 7:9. 2.) Free enterprise-1 Timothy 5:8, 2 Thessolonians 3:10. 3.) Private property-Exodus 20:15.

The list goes on, but my point is this: We need to get back to the Founding Fathers' ideas that the Bible is still valid and is essential to a countriy's economic success as well as its freedom. We sure aren't heeding Biblical principles right now, and where are we?

I would encourage you to read some of the Founders' documents. It won't be hard to see where they got their beliefs: The Bible. It made our country great and prosperous.

Don't you want America to be that way in 2009?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

the founding fathers most of whom declared their faith in a God/providence..not to many actually mentioned Jesus.
so to say we are a chrisitan nation...no
a nation founded under a divine God/providence? yes..

[captusa]

No. After salvation he would no longer be a killer. A killer is someone who kills in the present tense: Kill"er\, n. 1. One who deprives of life; one who, or that which, kills.

After he received Jesus, he would become a new creation of God's making: II Cor.5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Great occupational encouragement to a Mafia hitman who believes.

[gpd®]

Not really. A true proponent of OSAS quickly learns the mantra:

"They were never really saved in the first place."

It's pretty much a one size fits all response.

Hallelujah, brother. Did one really have a personal relationship with God?

[Abel]

1) He already had salvation - I asked about redemption.
2) Your definition would mean John Wayne Gacy and Jeffery Dahmer are not killers. I disagree with that.

He received Jesus many years ago

I reject the notion that this man had ever received Jesus as Savior. Neither his works nor his fruits were reflective of faith in Christ: James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Claiming to be a Christian does not mean one really is. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. I never read of Jesus Christ doing anything this Koop fellow did. Hence, Koop was not a Christian.

The same applies to Gacy and Dahmer.

[Marleysdaddy]

I reject the notion that this man had ever received Jesus as Savior.
Unfortunately, you are not in the position to make that determination
Neither his works nor his fruits were reflective of faith in Christ: James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
1) Aren't works and fruits the same thing?
Doesn't "By your fruits you shall know them" mean "You can determine their motives by observing their works (actions)"

2) You may not agree with him, but Kopp certainly thought he was doing what the god of the Bible commanded of him.
Claiming to be a Christian does not mean one really is. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. I never read of Jesus Christ doing anything this Koop fellow did. Hence, Koop was not a Christian.
Again, unfortunately you can't know that.
The same applies to Gacy and Dahmer.
I'm not aware of either of them ever claiming to be Christian - I brought them up as examples of how strange your definition of 'killer' was...if we use your definition, Gacy and Dahmer are not killers, because they are not currently killing people (because they are both deceased).