Confused on Israel.

[Gizmet]

I have failed to follow politics/world view/whatever you want to call it for the last 37years, being only 37 you can see what I mean, and as such I cannot for the life of me understand what Pres. Obama is doing in relation to Israel? All that I understand is that Hamas has been for years launching missiles into Israel, I always caught snipits on the news about it, and they are to take it? Why does everyone hate Israel?
Hey, I don't hate anyone, I don't even hate the new "nazis"(as I see it) the Musslems. I hate the extremists, those who want to destroy us because we are who we are, but my limited understanding of the musslem religion is that its a peaceful religion so why hate them? Anyway thats another subject all together, so to get back on my point, why does everyone hate Israel and what are we doing giving money away to Hamas?

-Preston

[The Bos'un]

Join the Club. The world opinion about the Palestinian ~ State of Israel issues has been clouded for years.

Many liberals around the world support the Palestinian point of view. It is sad that the world gives a bunch of terrorist thugs a free pass, and allows them to dictate to some moderate Arabs (who live in fear of being labeled collaborators) in the region, while putting Israel under the microscope.

My thoughts and prayers go out for the IDF, State of Israel, and citizens of that historically rich region.

He who blessed our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, may He bless the soldiers of Israel who stand guard on our country and the cities of our G_d. From Lebanon until the deserts of Egypt, from the Mediterranean Sea until the Plains of Jordan - on dry land, in the air and sea. May G_d afflict the enemies that rise against them before them. The Holy One, Blessed is He, should protect and save our soldiers from any misfortune or calamity, and from any sickness or disease. May he send blessing and success in all their handiwork, destroy their enemies below them, and crown them with the crown of redemption and the crown of victory. "For G_d walks among you, to wage war for you with your enemies, to save you" And the verse should be fulfilled, and let us say, Amen.

"He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, may He bless the soldiers of Israel". A prayer for Israel and the IDF, courtesy of IsraelMilitary.com

[JoeCruz]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm

[CMike11]

I'm with you too.

It's totally illogical how people can defend outright terrorism against a country that is only interested in its survival.

[harry tuttle]

I have failed to follow politics/world view/whatever you want to call it for the last 37years, being only 37 you can see what I mean, and as such I cannot for the life of me understand what Pres. Obama is doing in relation to Israel? All that I understand is that Hamas has been for years launching missiles into Israel, I always caught snipits on the news about it, and they are to take it? Why does everyone hate Israel?
Hey, I don't hate anyone, I don't even hate the new "nazis"(as I see it) the Musslems. I hate the extremists, those who want to destroy us because we are who we are, but my limited understanding of the musslem religion is that its a peaceful religion so why hate them? Anyway thats another subject all together, so to get back on my point, why does everyone hate Israel and what are we doing giving money away to Hamas?

-PrestonThey don't hate Israel. They just hate the thuggery of murderous terrorist leaders such as Menachem Begin and Benjamin Netanyahu.

[REAGAN RULES]

Harry, what makes you think that Menachem Begin and Benjamin Netanyahu are terrorist leaders?

[harry tuttle]

Harry, what makes you think that Menachem Begin and Benjamin Netanyahu are terrorist leaders?For one thing, Begin bragged that he was. The King David hotel. Netanyahu follows his footsteps.

[FirmHand135]

Good luck resolving this issue in a minute. Both side cause their share of problems. I will say the palastinien backers tend to stir up a bit more of the problems. Here, you have opposed religions at the core of the issue and scared holy land of both. Neither side wants to give an inch. Its evenly split within Isreal wether to support a seperate state for Palastine. So perhaps instead of pointing fingers...both sides needs to come to an agreement. But that is hard too as the Palastiniens are just as divided as Isreal.

[CMike11]

For one thing, Begin bragged that he was. The King David hotel. Netanyahu follows his footsteps.

:rolleyes:Good grief here we go again with this nonsense.

The King David hotel was the military HQ command for the british. It was a military target. The british at that time were putting jews in detention camps and making mass arrests. It was a legitimate attack. This occurred before 1948 when Israel became a state.

The Netanyahu arguement I am unclear on, but I can wait for the genius logic that will come from this one.

I await with baited breath.

[Celtic Pax]

Didn't you just deal with that nugget of ignorance on another thread?:question:

[nofear2]

But that is hard too as the Palastiniens are just as divided as Isreal.

Not quite, the Palestinians have an overwhelming percentage of their population that support terrorist activity against Israeli civilians.

[CMike11]

Didn't you just deal with that nugget of ignorance on another thread?:question:

Yeah...it's the same lies repeated over and over:rolleyes:

[nofear2]

For one thing, Begin bragged that he was. The King David hotel. Netanyahu follows his footsteps.

Turns out that the King David Hotel was the British military headquarters - needless to say attacks on or against the Military are not considered in ANY way to be terrorist. In fact there is evidence to suggest that the King David Hotel was warned by the Israelis. Turns out that the British Officer in charge over there did not want to believe that Jews could so easily infiltrate his ranks. As a result of his inaction his men were killed and that puts the fault in his lap.

Now here's a question - Would you consider the Resistance movements around Europe who would attack the Nazi convoys/headquarters to be terrorists? No? Ah yes that must be because most of them were not Jewish.

The difference between resistance and what the Palestinians do is seen in that the Palestinians attack civilians like blind and rabid dogs.

[nofear2]

Turns out that the King David Hotel was the British military headquarters - needless to say attacks on or against the Military are not considered in ANY way to be terrorist. In fact there is evidence to suggest that the King David Hotel was warned by the Israelis. Turns out that the British Officer in charge over there did not want to believe that Jews could so easily infiltrate his ranks. As a result of his inaction his men were killed and that puts the fault in his lap.

Now here's a question - Would you consider the Resistance movements around Europe who would attack the Nazi convoys/headquarters to be terrorists? No? Ah yes that must be because most of them were not Jewish.

The difference between resistance and what the Palestinians do is seen in that the Palestinians attack civilians like blind and rabid dogs.

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

[CMike11]

What bothers me the most about the arab terrorist apologists is that

1) They have to go back almost 60 years to come up with lies about Israel

2) They always seem to miss crucial information. Like somehow forgetting to mention that the King David Hotel was the british military HQ.

Either they truely aren't aware of the truth or that they are hoping by going so many decades that the posters aren't aware of the truth. My guess is the latter.

[Gizmet]

Didn't meant to start the war here...:) I just have not been as "up to date" as I should have been on things I suppose. I just don't understand why IF (and I stress that because I don't know)..IF Hamas is a terrorist organization why we are giving them money? Doesn't make sense to me to give money to people we are supposedly at war with...just seems odd to me.

-Preston

[treadmill]

we can argue details until the cows come home....and long after. The bottom line is: 1. Israel is a stalward friend which shares our ideals, values and moral beliefs. It is, in short, an "America of the ME". 2. The Muslim states, although worthy of respect as human beings, frankly are our geopolitical adversaries. To a large extent, they do not share our ideals, values and moral beliefs.

This is why most liberals do not support Israel and prefer to support their Islamic adversaries. Liberalism is an ideology of opposition - primarily to our ideals, values and moral beliefs .

Take home message: support for Israel should be a no-brainer(inspite of the fact that, like us, they also have warts) .

[sirjamesearl]

Didn't meant to start the war here...:) I just have not been as "up to date" as I should have been on things I suppose. I just don't understand why IF (and I stress that because I don't know)..IF Hamas is a terrorist organization why we are giving them money? Doesn't make sense to me to give money to people we are supposedly at war with...just seems odd to me.

-Preston

That is what alot of true Americans are thinking....Why are we? You'd have to ask your Congressman....but don't expect a answer...Just some garbage they mass produced for the ignorant masses....:wall:

[Celtic Pax]

Didn't meant to start the war here...:) I just have not been as "up to date" as I should have been on things I suppose. I just don't understand why IF (and I stress that because I don't know)..IF Hamas is a terrorist organization why we are giving them money? Doesn't make sense to me to give money to people we are supposedly at war with...just seems odd to me.

-PrestonAh but you forget. Clinton said that the $900 million is NOT for Hamas BUT for the palestinians and will only go through organizations that have no connections to Hamas. If anyone believes that bull pucky they are truly brain dead.

[CMike11]

we can argue details until the cows come home....and long after. The bottom line is: 1. Israel is a stalward friend which shares our ideals, values and moral beliefs. It is, in short, an "America of the ME". 2. The Muslim states, although worthy of respect as human beings, frankly are our geopolitical adversaries. To a large extent, they do not share our ideals, values and moral beliefs.

This is why most liberals do not support Israel and prefer to support their Islamic adversaries. Liberalism is an ideology of opposition - primarily to our ideals, values and moral beliefs .

Take home message: support for Israel should be a no-brainer(inspite of the fact that, like us, they also have warts) .

:clap:

[nofear2]

Didn't meant to start the war here...:) I just have not been as "up to date" as I should have been on things I suppose. I just don't understand why IF (and I stress that because I don't know)..IF Hamas is a terrorist organization why we are giving them money? Doesn't make sense to me to give money to people we are supposedly at war with...just seems odd to me.

-Preston

Want something up to date? Try this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_CjAZuqIAk

[meggers49]

Didn't you just deal with that nugget of ignorance on another thread?:question:

There are none so blind as those who will not see.....(gee that would be a great line for a song) .....

my mom's ethics book from eons ago refers to this as 'invincible ignorance' because no matter what you do to explain something, someone will refuse to listen and acknowledge what you say as truth.

[REAGAN RULES]

I DO AGREE WITH HARRY THAT MENACHEM BEGIN WAS CONSIDERED BY MANY TO BE A TERRORIST, DUE TO THE FACT HE WAS THE COMMANDER OF THE IRGUN GUERRILLA FORCE. WITH THAT SAID, WHILE HE WAS P.M. OF ISRAEL, HE DID SIGN A PEACE TREATY WITH EYGPT IN 1979, WHICH WON HIM THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE. NOW WITH NETANYAHU, I AM NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM WITH THAT HARRY. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY ONE INCIDENT THAT WOULD SUPPORT THAT CLAIM. I DO KNOW THIS, HE DID NEGOTIATE WITH ARAFAT IN 1998 @ THE WYE RIVER ACCORDS, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE PROVEN UNFRUITFUL. DESPITE THIS SETBACK, NETANYAHU WAS STILL GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO TURN OVER MOST OF HEBRON TO PALENSTINIAN JURISDICTION. I AGREE ALSO THAT WE COULD GO ROUND & ROUND ON THIS ISSUE, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, HOW MANY TIMES HAS ISRAEL OFFERED "LAND FOR PEACE", ONLY TO COME UNDER ATTACK DAYS LATER. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ISRAEL IS THE PARTY THAT ALWAYS HAS TO MAKE CONCESSIONS. IN 1948 ISRAEL HAD TO RE-ESTABLISH THEMSELVES IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND. IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE "DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL", THEY OFFERED A HAND OF PEACE TO ALL OF THE NEIGHBORING STATES ONLY TO BE ATTACKED THE NEXT DAY! THERE IS A LOT MORE TO THIS, BUT IN MY OPINION ISRAEL DID NOT START THIS, AND GOD WILLING I HOPE THEY FINISH IT!

"IT IS AN UNFORTUNATE FACT THAT SECURING FREEDOM MEANS PREPARING FOR WAR". :flag:

[Celtic Pax]

Please cut down on the SHOUTING!!!!!!

[damselone]

Want something up to date? Try this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_CjAZuqIAk
This will end when the world ends Read your Bible its in plain english translation for you

[FromAKtoAZ]

Just the fact that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad hates Israel so much and denies the holocaust is enough reason for me to stand strong on the side of Israel. Not to mention all the other reasons!

THERE IS A LOT MORE TO THIS, BUT IN MY OPINION ISRAEL DID NOT START THIS, AND GOD WILLING I HOPE THEY FINISH IT!

Not to worry, Israel will not have to finish it, the bible promises that God will finish it, right before Israel's eyes!

[meggers49]

Please cut down on the SHOUTING!!!!!!

stopped reading because a) caps and b) if i see someone STILL blaming Israel for Begin and the Irgun from over 60 years ago, I may go postal.

[Celtic Pax]

The arab apologizers are alive and redundant as usual on the forum. Too bad most of their factoids are so old and proven to be either false or twisted history.:rolleyes:

[TheFallGuy]

...[deleted and ignored due to all caps]....

pssst REAGAN RULES


DON'T YELL!!!

All caps is shouting. You can get your point across without yelling every word at us. In fact, it makes it more readable, and you're more apt to be read.

[opsyscw]

I have failed to follow politics/world view/whatever you want to call it for the last 37years, being only 37 you can see what I mean, and as such I cannot for the life of me understand what Pres. Obama is doing in relation to Israel? All that I understand is that Hamas has been for years launching missiles into Israel, I always caught snipits on the news about it, and they are to take it? Why does everyone hate Israel?
Hey, I don't hate anyone, I don't even hate the new "nazis"(as I see it) the Musslems. I hate the extremists, those who want to destroy us because we are who we are, but my limited understanding of the musslem religion is that its a peaceful religion so why hate them? Anyway thats another subject all together, so to get back on my point, why does everyone hate Israel and what are we doing giving money away to Hamas?

-Preston
As a start, you should educate yourself a bit on the muslim religion. It is NOT, I repeat NOT, a "Religion of Peace".

Radical muslims are the norm, according to their book of terror, called the quran. So called "moderate" muslims just let the radicals do the dirty work, waiting until the day they can dominate the world. You, as a non-muslim, are the just one step away from being the lowest scum on the pole. The only thing lower is a muslim who saw the truth and left the religion.

Their false prophet, self-proclaimed no less, mohammad, was a psycho-pathic, sexually perverted, peodiphile who used hate, murder, and terror to grow the religion. It is more of a cult than a religion, with those who belong having been brainwashed that they are better than anyone else, that it is ok to lie and cheat an infidel, and are rewarded with sexual favors for doing the bidding of their leaders.

The muslims have managed to convience people like you that their religion is a "religion of peace". It is only peaceful to other muslims, but not always even then, since most of their victims are fellow muslims. Look at how they treat their women as a simple example of the hatred they have been instilled with.

It is quite an eye opener to look into this cult and see how false it is.

[nofear2]

This will end when the world ends Read your Bible its in plain english translation for you
Nothing to do with the Bible. I read the bible in Hebrew dont need translation.

[PercyVere]

All that I understand is that Hamas has been for years launching missiles into Israel, I always caught snipits on the news about it, and they are to take it? Why does everyone hate Israel?I take it you missed all those news reports about Israel firing missiles at the Palestinian territories. Israel has slaughtered far more innocent people than the have the Palestinians with their rocket attacks.

This is why people are angry at Israel - because they slaughter civilians and deliberately destroy infrastructure and homes.

[Streelsh]

For one thing, Begin bragged that he was. The King David hotel. Netanyahu follows his footsteps.

Begin NEVER EVER bragged that he was a terrorist ! Indeed, if you ever read his book, THE REVOLT, he stated quite the opposite- that he never planned an operation in which CIVILIANS were targeted. As for the King David Hotel operation- the King David Hotel was a MILITARY target housing the offices of CID ( which had a nasty habit of tying up Irgun and Haganah operatives and dumping them in the middle of the night in Arab villages, the occupants of which mutilated them - both men and women - sexually before murdering them) the Irgun went to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties by telephoning the hotel and gave them time to evacuate

But the test of whether the Irgun were a TERRORIST group is that, nothwithstanding the fact that they COULD HAVE sent agent to England and bombed CIVILIAN targets THERE - LIKE the IRA and ( shut my politically INCORRECT mouth) Arabs who have been equal opportunity terrorists by murdering British and American ( in addition to Israelis and non Israeli Jews THROUGHOUT the world) CIVILIANS in THEIR hometowns - the Irgun concentrated against British and Arab combatants !!!!

[Streelsh]

I take it you missed all those news reports about Israel firing missiles at the Palestinian territories. Israel has slaughtered far more innocent people than the have the Palestinians with their rocket attacks.

This is why people are angry at Israel - because they slaughter civilians and deliberately destroy infrastructure and homes.

Percy - you cut me up the way you misrepresent the facts. In fact, from the very day that Israel retreated from Gaza, HAMAS fired SEVEN THOUSAND rockets inside the so called Green Line until Israel responded with Operation Cast Lead ( many from the ruins of synagogues destroyed immediately by the Arabs when they took control of Gaza.


Now I KNOW that you would have wanted the Israeli Government to respond the same way the Kapos pushed Jews into the gas chambers of Nazi occupied Europe 65 years ago. But somehow even Olmert's spineless government had to reconcile itself to the HAMAS Covenant of August 1988 which calls for the elimination of Israel and the creation of an Islamist state

[CMike11]

I take it you missed all those news reports about Israel firing missiles at the Palestinian territories. Israel has slaughtered far more innocent people than the have the Palestinians with their rocket attacks.

This is why people are angry at Israel - because they slaughter civilians and deliberately destroy infrastructure and homes.

The "Palestinian" terrorists should probably stop using civilians as human shields then, huh?

[CMike11]

Begin NEVER EVER bragged that he was a terrorist ! Indeed, if you ever read his book, THE REVOLT, he stated quite the opposite- that he never planned an operation in which CIVILIANS were targeted. As for the King David Hotel operation- the King David Hotel was a MILITARY target housing the offices of CID ( which had a nasty habit of tying up Irgun and Haganah operatives and dumping them in the middle of the night in Arab villages, the occupants of which mutilated them - both men and women - sexually before murdering them) the Irgun went to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties by telephoning the hotel and gave them time to evacuate

But the test of whether the Irgun were a TERRORIST group is that, nothwithstanding the fact that they COULD HAVE sent agent to England and bombed CIVILIAN targets THERE - LIKE the IRA and ( shut my politically INCORRECT mouth) Arabs who have been equal opportunity terrorists by murdering British and American ( in addition to Israelis and non Israeli Jews THROUGHOUT the world) CIVILIANS in THEIR hometowns - the Irgun concentrated against British and Arab combatants !!!!

Excellent point! If they were truely terrorists they would be bombing restaurants and such within England.

Once again for the millionth time, the King David hotel was a military target.

The Brits were putting jews in detention camps and making mass arrests. They started the aggresion against the jews at the time.

[PercyVere]

Now I KNOW that you would have wanted the Israeli Government to respond the same way the Kapos pushed Jews into the gas chambers of Nazi occupied Europe 65 years ago.You always have the nazis and gas chambers ready for usage don't you ... can there be no criticism of Israel without bringing this up?

[PercyVere]

Excellent point! If they were truely terrorists they would be bombing restaurants and such within England.Most IRA attacks were comitted in Ireland, close to home, and not on 'the Mainland' (it's funny which terms are weighted in Ireland). Also, most IRA attacks were directed either at the security forces of the government with which they were at war, or at members of enemy paramilitary forces ... what Irgun fans would call 'legitimate targets'. By your logic, the IRA and Irgun were equally undeserving of the mantle of 'terrorists'.

[CMike11]

Percy it seems that the facts don't agree with what you write.

The IRA has bombed train stations, bridges, and numerous civilian targets within Britain itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_the_United_Kingdom

IRA Attacks.


[edit] 1990s
1990 May 16: Wembley IRA detonate a bomb underneath a minibus killing Sgt Charles Chapman (The Queen's Regiment) and injuring another soldier.
1990 June 1: Lichfield City railway station 1 solder is killed and 2 are injured in a shooting by the Provisional Irish Republican Army
1990 20 July: The IRA detonate a bomb at the London Stock Exchange causing damage to the building. Nobody was injured in the blast.[9]
1990 30 July: Ian Gow MP killed by a car bomb planted by the IRA while at his home in Sussex.
1991, 7 February: The IRA launched three mortar shells into the back garden of 10 Downing Street.
1991 February 18: A bomb explodes at Victoria Station. One man is killed and 38 people injured.
1992 February 28, 1992: A bomb explodes at London Bridge station injuring 29 people.
1992 April 10: A large bomb explodes in St Mary Axe in the City of London. The bomb was contained in a large white truck and consisted of a fertilizer device wrapped with a detonation cord made from Semtex. It killed three people: Paul Butt, 29, Baltic Exchange employee Thomas Casey, 49, and 15-year old Danielle Carter. The bomb also caused damage to surrounding buildings, many of which were also badly damaged by the Bishopsgate bombing the following year. The bomb caused £800 million worth of damage, £200 million more than the total damaged caused by the 10,000 explosions that had occurred during the Troubles in Northern Ireland up to that point.[10]
1992 25 August: The IRA plant three fire bombs in Shrewsbury, Shropshire. Bombs were placed in Shoplatch, The Charles Darwin Centre and Shrewsbury Castle. The latter causing the most damage as the castle housed the Shropshire Regimental Museum and many priceless historical aritifacts were lost and damaged by fire and smoke. No fatalities or injuries were recorded.
1992 October 12: A device explodes in the gents' toilet of the Sussex Arms public house in Covent Garden killing one person and injuring four others.
1992 16 November: IRA plants a bomb at the Canary Wharf, but is spotted by security guards. The bomb is deactivated safely.
1992 3 December: The IRA exploded two bombs in central Manchester, injuring 65 people.[11]
1993, 20 March: Warrington bomb attacks. The first attack, on a gasworks, created a huge fireball but no casualties, but the second attack on Bridge Street killed two children and injured many other people. The attacks were conducted by the IRA.
1993 April 24: IRA detonate a huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate, It killed journalist Ed Henty, injured over 40 people, and causing approximately £1 billion worth of damage,[12] including the destruction of St Ethelburga's church, and serious damage to Liverpool St. Tube Station. Police had received a coded warning, but were still evacuating the area at the time of the explosion. The insurance payments required were so enormous, that Lloyd's of London almost went bankrupt under the strain, and there was a crisis in the London insurance market. The area had already suffered damage from the Baltic Exchange bombing the year before. (see 1993 Bishopsgate bombing)
1996, 9 February 1996: The IRA bombs the South Quay area of London, killing two people. (see 1996 Docklands bombing)
1996 15 June: The Manchester bombing when the IRA detonated a 1500 kg bomb which destroyed the Arndale shopping centre and injured 206 people.
1996 February 15: A 5 lb bomb placed in a telephone box is disarmed by Police on the Charing Cross Road.
1996 February 18: An improvised high explosive device detonates prematurely on a bus travelling along Aldwych in central London, killing Edward O'Brien, the IRA operative transporting the device and injuring eight others.
1997 March: The IRA exploded two bombs in relay boxes near Wilmslow railway station, thereby causing great disruption to rail and road services, in Wilmslow and the surrounding area.
1999, 17 April, 24 April, 30 April: David Copeland set off three nail bombs in London targeting the black, Bangladeshi and gay communities respectively, killing 3 and injuring 129. Convicted of murder on 30 June 2000.
Refer also to the list of IRA terrorist incidents presented to Parliament between 1980 and 1994, listed halfway down the page here

[edit] 2000-present
2000 1 June: Bomb explodes on Hammersmith Bridge
2000 20 September: RPG attack SIS Building
2001 4 March: A car bomb explodes outside the BBC's main news centre in London. One London Underground worker suffered deep cuts to his eye from flying glass and some damage was caused to the front of the building.[13] (See 4 March 2001 BBC bombing)
2001 16 April: Hendon post office bombed
2001 6 May: The Real IRA detonate a bomb in a London postal sorting office. One person was injured. [14]
2001, 3 August: The last Real IRA bomb, as of June 2008, in Britain explodes in Ealing, West London, injuring seven people.[15] (See 3 August 2001 Ealing bombing)
2001, 4 November: Car bomb explodes in Birmingham[16]
2005 7 July: The 7 July 2005 London bombings conducted by four separate suicide bombers, killing 56 people and injuring 700.
2007 January - February: The 2007 United Kingdom letter bombs
2007 30 June: 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack
2008 22 May: 22 May 2008 Exeter Bombing injuring only the perpetrator.[17]

[ben41281]

I take it you missed all those news reports about Israel firing missiles at the Palestinian territories. Israel has slaughtered far more innocent people than the have the Palestinians with their rocket attacks.

This is why people are angry at Israel - because they slaughter civilians and deliberately destroy infrastructure and homes.


OH PLAESE! The Isrealis are not to blame! If the Palestinians would lay down their arms, there would be peace! If the Isrealis laid down theirs, they would be destroyed!

God bless Isreal, God bless America, brothers in arms forever! As a Christian, I would stand up to deffend Isreal if needed!

[PercyVere]

Percy it seems that the facts don't agree with what you write.

The IRA has bombed train stations, bridges, and numerous civilian targets within Britain itself.Never said they didn't. I'm just saying the list of IRA attacks in Ireland would be massively longer than your list, and the casualty list much greater. That is a fact.

And most of their targets were what the Irgun defenders here would call legitimate. I'm painting Irgun with the same brush as the IRA, not defending the IRA, in case you can't see.

What's the difference between a pub with British military personnel in it, and a hotel with British military personnel in it? I'm sorry, I fail to see it.

[PercyVere]

OH PLAESE! The Isrealis are not to blame! If the Palestinians would lay down their arms, there would be peace! If the Isrealis laid down theirs, they would be destroyed!

God bless Isreal, God bless America, brothers in arms forever! As a Christian, I would stand up to deffend Isreal if needed!Good for you. However, your comment was mute on my explanation of why people are angry at Israel.

[CMike11]

Never said they didn't. I'm just saying the list of IRA attacks in Ireland would be massively longer than your list, and the casualty list much greater. That is a fact.

And most of their targets were what the Irgun defenders here would call legitimate. I'm painting Irgun with the same brush as the IRA, not defending the IRA, in case you can't see.

What's the difference between a pub with British military personnel in it, and a hotel with British military personnel in it? I'm sorry, I fail to see it.

I'll be happy to explain it to you...again.

The King David Hotel was not just a hotel with "british military personnel in it". It was the HQ millitary command for the british. It was a military target.

The IRA, on the other hand, attacks civilian targets, i.e. bridges, train stations, airports, buses, etc. Those targets are not military targets, they are civilian targets.

The King David Hotel Attack Was A Military Target

There is no similarity between the IRA and the Irgun:rolleyes:

Once again,

IRA attacks civilian targets

Irgun attacked military targets

[harry tuttle]

You always have the nazis and gas chambers ready for usage don't you ... can there be no criticism of Israel without bringing this up?There is no debate unless they bring it up.

[PercyVere]

I'll be happy to explain it to you...again.

The King David Hotel was not just a hotel with "british military personnel in it". It was the HQ millitary command for the british. It was a military target.

The IRA, on the other hand, attacks civilian targets, i.e. bridges, train stations, airports, buses, etc. Those targets are not military targets, they are civilian targets.

The King David Hotel Attack Was A Military Target

There is no similarity between the IRA and the Irgun:rolleyes:

Once again,

IRA attacks civilian targets

Irgun attacked military targetsOK you win ... I have no response to your huge green font. Anyway, goodnight. It's bed time here.

[harry tuttle]

OH PLAESE! The Isrealis are not to blame! If the Palestinians would lay down their arms, there would be peace!If the Palestinians would lay down their pebbles and toy rockets which have about a .008% kill rate, then maybe Israelis would lay down their gunships, their F-16s, their nuclear weapons - oh, that's right! They don't have nuclear weapons because they say they don't!

God bless Isreal, God bless America, brothers in arms forever!Wrong order. God bless America first.

As a Christian, I would stand up to deffend Isreal if needed!Either you're a generous man or a foolish man, because Israel wouldn't return the favor if the **** hits the fan in America.

[PercyVere]

I'll be happy to explain it to you...again.

The King David Hotel was not just a hotel with "british military personnel in it". It was the HQ millitary command for the british. It was a military target.

The IRA, on the other hand, attacks civilian targets, i.e. bridges, train stations, airports, buses, etc. Those targets are not military targets, they are civilian targets.

The King David Hotel Attack Was A Military Target

There is no similarity between the IRA and the Irgun:rolleyes:

Once again,

IRA attacks civilian targets

Irgun attacked military targetsOK, one last post before bed. Damn this forum.

You may or may not have heard that the Real IRA has just murdered two British soldiers in Northern Ireland.

From the RIRA ponit of view, these soldiers were foreigners, members of a foreign occupying force, dressed in military fatigues, on duty, inside the army base. Targets just don't get much more legitimate than that. Yet, as I see it, these two soldiers were murdered by terrorists. Explain the difference to me, please, between the RIRA killing British soldiers for the cause of Irish freedom (however misguided and unsupported), and the Irgun killing British soldiers for the Jewish cause.

[harry tuttle]

Since the USS Liberty was a military target, the slaughter of Americans was ok.

When in doubt, just say, "it was a military target". Americans will believe it just like they believe Israel has no nuclear weapons - oh wait.

[CMike11]

Since the USS Liberty was a military target, the slaughter of Americans was ok.

When in doubt, just say, "it was a military target". Americans will believe it just like they believe Israel has no nuclear weapons - oh wait.

I was waiting until someone would bring up the other arab terrorist apologist arguement.

The Liberty was an accident. ALL US government investigations concluded it was an accident.

Just like Deir Yassin was a long protracted fight and not a "massacre":rolleyes:

And also like the King David hotel was the military HQ for the british and not just a random civilian target that was attacked.

[PercyVere]

I was waiting until someone would bring up the other arab terrorist apologist arguement.

The Liberty was an accident. ALL US government investigations concluded it was an accident.

Just like Deir Yassin was a long protracted fight and not a "massacre":rolleyes:

And also like the King David hotel was the military HQ for the british and not just a random civilian target that was attacked.What about those recent IRA killings then? Foreign, occupying soldiers in uniform, in barracks are legitimate targets, surely?

[CMike11]

OK, one last post before bed. Damn this forum.

You may or may not have heard that the Real IRA has just murdered two British soldiers in Northern Ireland.

From the RIRA ponit of view, these soldiers were foreigners, members of a foreign occupying force, dressed in military fatigues, on duty, inside the army base. Targets just don't get much more legitimate than that. Yet, as I see it, these two soldiers were murdered by terrorists. Explain the difference to me, please, between the RIRA killing British soldiers for the cause of Irish freedom (however misguided and unsupported), and the Irgun killing British soldiers for the Jewish cause.

Soldiers are a legitimate military target. The IRA is a terrorist organization because it also targets civilians

[cmorlan]

If the Palestinians would lay down their pebbles and toy rockets which have about a .008% kill rate, then maybe Israelis would lay down their gunships, their F-16s, their nuclear weapons - oh, that's right! They don't have nuclear weapons because they say they don't!

Wrong order. God bless America first.

Either you're a generous man or a foolish man, because Israel wouldn't return the favor if the **** hits the fan in America.


It seam you miss the rockets fired into Israel from Hamas controlled areas... The Palestinians have elected Terrorists to lead them when hamas fires rockets into Isreal they are the elected government of Hamas and so they are a rogue state.

[PercyVere]

It seam you miss the rockets fired into Israel from Hamas controlled areas... The Palestinians have elected Terrorists to lead them when hamas fires rockets into Isreal they are the elected government of Hamas and so they are a rogue state. ... and the elected govt of Israel fires missile in the Territories ... killing countless children ... what gives?

[PercyVere]

Soldiers are a legitimate military target. The IRA is a terrorist organization because it also targets civiliansIrgun targeted random civilians on buses, in cafes, in hospitals, on trains, in markets etc. They mostly murdered Arabs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks_during_the_1930s

Can you please knock off this charade that Irgun attacked military targets only? They systematically used terrorism against innocent civilians to achieve their aims. They openly had a policy of revenge killings ... where a jewish person was murdered, Irgun would murder some random Arabs in response.

Sorta reminds us of some modern-day Israeli behaviour, to be honest.

[CMike11]

No they didn't.

They were warring with the arabs. Arabs were attacking the jews.

Just because it says "arabs killed", doesn't mean those arabs were civilians.

[PercyVere]

No they didn't.

They were warring with the arabs. Arabs were attacking the jews.And the RIRA and CIRA are at war with the British forces of occupation (as they see it).

Where is your evidence that the Arabs killed in all those attacks were legitimate military targets, and not just random civilian victims of terrorism?
Are you also suggesting that if any Jews are under attack by any Arabs, then ALL Arabs are legitimate targets?

Your double standards are astonishing, but at least they are now in plain view, for all here to see.

[CMike11]

And the RIRA and CIRA are at war with the British forces of occupation (as they see it).

Where is your evidence that the Arabs killed in all those attacks were legitimate military targets, and not just random civilian victims of terrorism?
Are you also suggesting that if any Jews are under attack by any Arabs, then ALL Arabs are legitimate targets?

Your double standards are astonishing, but at least they are now in plain view, for all here to see.

I don't have to provide the evidence, you are making the accusations.

What is your evidence that they were not soldiers?

Why don't you provide information regarding a particular attack with some detail then we can make a conclusion.

Killed two arabs, means very little, since it doesn't mention if the arabs were carrying guns and aggresors or not.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n229/kampkirk88/1550.gif ~BH

[BigBagel]

OH PLAESE! The Isrealis are not to blame! If the Palestinians would lay down their arms, there would be peace! If the Isrealis laid down theirs, they would be destroyed!

God bless Isreal, God bless America, brothers in arms forever! As a Christian, I would stand up to deffend Isreal if needed!
Israel should establish a French Foreign Legion type military unit so American Zionists both Jewish and Christian can send their children to fight and die for Israel. American soldiers exist to defend the United States and it's interests not those of a foreign country. I hope Israel lasts a thousand years but it's not worth one drop of American blood.

[CMike11]

Israel should establish a French Foreign Legion type military unit so American Zionists both Jewish and Christian can send their children to fight and die for Israel. American soldiers exist to defend the United States and it's interests not those of a foreign country. I hope Israel lasts a thousand years but it's not worth one drop of American blood.

Name one time american soldiers have fought for Israel?

Hint hint -- it doesn't exist.

[A_K_]

What bothers me the most about the arab terrorist apologists is that

1) They have to go back almost 60 years to come up with lies about Israel

2) They always seem to miss crucial information. Like somehow forgetting to mention that the King David Hotel was the british military HQ.

Either they truely aren't aware of the truth or that they are hoping by going so many decades that the posters aren't aware of the truth. My guess is the latter.
So if they restricted their attacks to only kidnapping soldiers or attacking military targets it would be ok?

Like when Stern Gang and Irgun kidnapped British soldiers and executed them or the Oclub and barracks they bombed?

If 9/11 had only hit the Pentagon and White House but avoided the WTC
it would not have been terrorism because those are valid command and control targets?

[harry tuttle]

It seam you miss the rockets fired into Israel from Hamas controlled areas... No, I didn't miss them. They're the ones with the .008% kill rate... if that. More Israelis have died slipping and falling in their bathtubs than have died from those "rockets".

[Bolshevik Hunter]

So if they restricted their attacks to only kidnapping soldiers or attacking military targets it would be ok?

Like when Stern Gang and Irgun kidnapped British soldiers and executed them or the Oclub and barracks they bombed?

If 9/11 had only hit the Pentagon and White House but avoided the WTC
it would not have been terrorism because those are valid command and control targets?

Exactly. However, I wouldn't waste your breath with facts because many brainwashed apologist robots have more allegiance to Israel than they do The United States of America. It's a sad reality. To them......

Israel = Good.

Everyone else, including the USA = Bad.

U.S.S Liberty Memorial Website
http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Atleast to the blind hypocrites anyway. Oh well, some morons still believe that the World is flat no matter how many times you present the proof that it is not. ;) ~BH

[BigBagel]

Name one time american soldiers have fought for Israel?

Hint hint -- it doesn't exist.
The dead Marines in Lebanon, the dead servicemen in Iraq....thousands of them.

[ben41281]

Israel should establish a French Foreign Legion type military unit so American Zionists both Jewish and Christian can send their children to fight and die for Israel.

I don't know where do begin with this one? First the anti-semitism, "American Zionist"!

Second, anyone wishing to join the Isreali military just move to Isreal and you can. They like us do allow imagrants to join the military if they so wish. If they go for citizenship, like all Isreali's they would be responsible for the 2 years military service required.





American soldiers exist to defend the United States and it's interests not those of a foreign country. I hope Israel lasts a thousand years but it's not worth one drop of American blood.

Our intrests include our friends and allies around the world. You might want to stop and think, before you type next time!

[ben41281]

No, I didn't miss them. They're the ones with the .008% kill rate... if that. More Israelis have died slipping and falling in their bathtubs than have died from those "rockets".

So what would you have Isreal do about those rockets?

[BigBagel]

I don't know where do begin with this one? First the anti-semitism, "American Zionist"!

Second, anyone wishing to join the Isreali military just move to Isreal and you can. They like us do allow imagrants to join the military if they so wish. If they go for citizenship, like all Isreali's they would be responsible for the 2 years military service required.







Our intrests include our friends and allies around the world. You might want to stop and think, before you type next time!
#1-How is "American Zionist" anti-semitic ? Many Zionists are not Semites. Look at all the Christian Zionists among the Evangelicals.
#2-The United States has no "friends" in the world just other countries with common interests. Our security is not tied to the existence of Israel. Again. o hope Israel prospers but not at the cost of American blood or treasure.

[CMike11]

The dead Marines in Lebanon, the dead servicemen in Iraq....thousands of them.

And that has what to do with Israel?

The marines in Lebanon got in the way of Israel.

Also putting unarmed marines in the middle of a war zone was really really stupid.

The PLO were terrorists. Arafat hijacked aiplanes. Instead of applauding Israel getting rid of the PLO, the US was trying to protect them, so that they would get away safely :rolleyes:::

[CMike11]

Exactly. However, I wouldn't waste your breath with facts because many brainwashed apologist robots have more allegiance to Israel than they do The United States of America. It's a sad reality. To them......

Israel = Good.

Everyone else, including the USA = Bad.

U.S.S Liberty Memorial Website
http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Atleast to the blind hypocrites anyway. Oh well, some morons still believe that the World is flat no matter how many times you present the proof that it is not. ;) ~BH


The USS Liberty was an accident.

Gong after and killing terrorists -- Good

Giving terrorists $900 million and aiding and abetting them -- Bad

It's really not that hard to figure out.

[CMike11]

No, I didn't miss them. They're the ones with the .008% kill rate... if that. More Israelis have died slipping and falling in their bathtubs than have died from those "rockets".

Yeah...I am sure if some terrorist group from Mexico or Canada was shooting rockets at your home town, you wouldn't care either :liar:

[Mohawk5]

I don't think you the only one confused by this issue.

I often wonder how we got here with Israel as well.

[CMike11]

So if they restricted their attacks to only kidnapping soldiers or attacking military targets it would be ok?

Like when Stern Gang and Irgun kidnapped British soldiers and executed them or the Oclub and barracks they bombed?

If 9/11 had only hit the Pentagon and White House but avoided the WTC
it would not have been terrorism because those are valid command and control targets?

This isn't rocket science.

Group that intentionally targets civilians in order to spread terror -- Terrorist Group

Group that doesn't intentionally target civilians to spread terror -- Non Terrorist Group

[ben41281]

#1-How is "American Zionist" anti-semitic ? Many Zionists are not Semites. Look at all the Christian Zionists among the Evangelicals.

Sounds like anti-semitism to me. Sorry, I just call it like I see it. It seems you have a lot of hate.



#2-The United States has no "friends" in the world just other countries with common interests. Our security is not tied to the existence of Israel. Again. o hope Israel prospers but not at the cost of American blood or treasure.

So I assume you have no problem with Isreal defending themselves? You don't want us to send troops there, not that we have ever needed to. So do you have a problem with Isreal dealing with the Palestinians and other threats as they see fit?

[Mar2000]

Name one time american soldiers have fought for Israel?

Hint hint -- it doesn't exist.

Thanks to AIPAC's prositutes in DC you can start with Iraq. 'Security' of Israel is a fetish of every 'elite' in DC.

[Mar2000]

Israel should establish a French Foreign Legion type military unit so American Zionists both Jewish and Christian can send their children to fight and die for Israel. American soldiers exist to defend the United States and it's interests not those of a foreign country. I hope Israel lasts a thousand years but it's not worth one drop of American blood.

Yeah, but why would they now when they have us as their bitch?

[CMike11]

Thanks to AIPAC's prositutes in DC you can start with Iraq. 'Security' of Israel is a fetish of every 'elite' in DC.

What about Iraq? What does it have to do with Israel?

America is in Iraq because of three numbers-- 9 1 1.

It's funny how there are lobbyists for every single group and cause. However, most of the anti semites seem to only recognize AIPAC.

Why is that?

There are lobbyists for the arab terrorists as well.

In fact the current US regime is giving $900 million to Hamas terrorists.

I think most rational people realize that Israel is the lone democracy in the region, a staunch ally of the US, surrounded by hostile dictators, whose mission is to destroy the country.

[CMike11]

Here are some pro arab cause lobbies.

Often these groups involve funneling money to terrorist organizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_lobby_in_the_United_States

The National Association of Arab-Americans ("NAAA"), founded in 1972, was a political advocacy group whose goals were "to strengthen U.S. relations with Arab countries and to promote an evenhanded American policy based on justice and peace for all parties in the Middle East."[5] In the early 1970s there was growing anti-Arab sentiment related to the Arab-Israeli conflict and the 1973 oil embargo, leading to government investigations, executive orders, and legislative provisions to combat terrorism. These especially impacted on Arab American rights and activism. The response was the creation of groups like the Association of Arab-American University Graduates, the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and the Arab American Institute.[2]

[Streelsh]

So if they restricted their attacks to only kidnapping soldiers or attacking military targets it would be ok?

Like when Stern Gang and Irgun kidnapped British soldiers and executed them or the Oclub and barracks they bombed?

If 9/11 had only hit the Pentagon and White House but avoided the WTC
it would not have been terrorism because those are valid command and control targets?


In fact, when Bitish caned Jews in a manner that befitted the colonist style in India the Irgun warned the British they would inflict the same punishment on British troops they caught ( and did)

Thus, when the British threaten to murder three Jews in the infamous Acre Prison, the Irgun kidnapped three British soldiers ( they were looking for officers but could get their hands only on NCOs) They offered to exchange the three for the three Jewish prisoners but warned the British should they hang the 3 Jews they would execute the three soldiers. When the British did, the Irgun kept its word.

That was the only time that Irgun kidnapped British soldiers as the British stopped its practice of hanging Jews ( but continued the nasty practice of tying up their Jewsih prisoners and dumping them inthe middle of the night into Arab villages where the female prisoners were raped and both male and female prisoners were sexually tortured before being murdered.

[ben41281]

Thanks to AIPAC's prositutes in DC you can start with Iraq. 'Security' of Israel is a fetish of every 'elite' in DC.

More anit-semitism!

[ben41281]

Yeah, but why would they now when they have us as their bitch?

And one more example of anti-semitism!

[Mar2000]

More anit-semitism!

You can take your silly labels and have fun with them.

What it is is pro-americanism.

[BigBagel]

Sounds like anti-semitism to me. Sorry, I just call it like I see it. It seems you have a lot of hate.





So I assume you have no problem with Isreal defending themselves? You don't want us to send troops there, not that we have ever needed to. So do you have a problem with Isreal dealing with the Palestinians and other threats as they see fit?
"as they see fit". Sure. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.

[CMike11]

You can take your silly labels and have fun with them.

What it is is pro-americanism.

No it's not.

It's anti-americanism and pro arab terrorist.

[Mar2000]

No it's not.

It's anti-americanism and pro arab terrorist.

Sorry, Israel is not US.

And I don't give a damn about Israel or any other foreign country - especially now when we can't even take care of ourselves

[CMike11]

In fact, when Bitish caned Jews in a manner that befitted the colonist style in India the Irgun warned the British they would inflict the same punishment on British troops they caught ( and did)

Thus, when the British threaten to murder three Jews in the infamous Acre Prison, the Irgun kidnapped three British soldiers ( they were looking for officers but could get their hands only on NCOs) They offered to exchange the three for the three Jewish prisoners but warned the British should they hang the 3 Jews they would execute the three soldiers. When the British did, the Irgun kept its word.

That was the only time that Irgun kidnapped British soldiers as the British stopped its practice of hanging Jews ( but continued the nasty practice of tying up their Jewsih prisoners and dumping them inthe middle of the night into Arab villages where the female prisoners were raped and both male and female prisoners were sexually tortured before being murdered.

:clap:

[CMike11]

Sorry, Israel is not US.

I and I don't give a damn about Israel or any other foreign country - especially now when we can't even take care of ourselves

Israel has been fighting the same enemy that the US has been fighting; arab extremists and terrorists.

It was Israel that bombed the US Iraqi nuclear reactor. The US and the rest of the world condemned it.

However, the war in Iraq might have gone a lot of different if Hussein had operational nuclear weapons.

Thank you Israel :clap:

[ben41281]

israel has been fighting the same enemy that the us has been fighting; arab extremists and terrorists.

It was israel that bombed the us iraqi nuclear reactor. The us and the rest of the world condemned it.

However, the war in iraq might have gone a lot of different if hussein had operational nuclear weapons.

Thank you israel :clap:

amen!

[harry tuttle]

So what would you have Isreal do about those rockets?Lob them back.

Instead, Israel comes in with gunships and F-16s.

It's like if your neighbor's kids take a bb-gun and fire it at your dog in your yard, and miss, you retaliate by taking your automatic weapons into their house and kill them and their parents.

Real courage.:rolleyes:

[harry tuttle]

In fact, when Bitish caned Jews in a manner that befitted the colonist style in India the Irgun warned the British they would inflict the same punishment on British troops they caught ( and did)

Thus, when the British threaten to murder three Jews in the infamous Acre Prison, the Irgun kidnapped three British soldiers ( they were looking for officers but could get their hands only on NCOs) They offered to exchange the three for the three Jewish prisoners but warned the British should they hang the 3 Jews they would execute the three soldiers. When the British did, the Irgun kept its word.

That was the only time that Irgun kidnapped British soldiers as the British stopped its practice of hanging Jews ( but continued the nasty practice of tying up their Jewsih prisoners and dumping them inthe middle of the night into Arab villages where the female prisoners were raped and both male and female prisoners were sexually tortured before being murdered.How does it feel to be a terrorist apologist?

I personally know Israelis who say that Irgun was terrorist, Menachem Begin included.

[harry tuttle]

More anit-semitism!With that yardstick, you'd accuse someone who prefers mashed potatoes with gravy instead of knishes of anti-semitism.

[ben41281]

Lob them back.

Instead, Israel comes in with gunships and F-16s.

It's like if your neighbor's kids take a bb-gun and fire it at your dog in your yard, and miss, you retaliate by taking your automatic weapons into their house and kill them and their parents.

Real courage.:rolleyes:


So you would have them do nothing? They should just get used to it? Or hey they are jews, they should leave? What? At leaste the Isreali's do their best to hit the terrorists, and avoid inocents! Humas, goes out of their way to target inocents!

[harry tuttle]

So you would have them do nothing? They should just get used to it? Or hey they are jews, they should leave? What? At leaste the Isreali's do their best to hit the terrorists, and avoid inocents! Humas, goes out of their way to target inocents!No. Read what I said, and check your theatrics at the door.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

And one more example of anti-semitism!

Hey Ben? Is that the only defense that you have when someone disagree's with Israel about anything? Your calling him an Anti-Semite because he has an individual opinion on certain Israeli Policies. You are treating him like he is some Neo-Nazi. It's pretty weak minded bro. Why don't you use the label when it fits? If you think that you can silence those people who disgree with your one sided views by labeling them an Anti-semite, you're wrong.

While on the subject, The Mods here, 2 for sure, have repeatedly stated that labeling someone as an anti-Semite just because they don't support everything Israel does, is against the rules here. Just some advice. Try actually debating, instead of spreading race-baiting propaganda about posters here. ~BH

[nofear2]

No, I didn't miss them. They're the ones with the .008% kill rate... if that. More Israelis have died slipping and falling in their bathtubs than have died from those "rockets".

Can I then shoot those rockets at your family? It will be fun won't it?

[harry tuttle]

Can I then shoot those rockets at your family? It will be fun won't it?For you, maybe. For me and my family, no.

[nofear2]

Lob them back.
So are you saying that Israel should use proportional force? Would America? I'd love to lob those rockets at you and your family. After all theyre only like BB's and whatever injuries can come about are only minor and if there is a death that's only because the people were not intelligent to get out of the way. But really, the rockets are nothing.

Cmon lets do it! It'll be fun!

Instead, Israel comes in with gunships and F-16s.

Because no war was ever won with use of proportional force.

[nofear2]

For you, maybe. For me and my family, no.

Why won't it be fun? They're only like BB's.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

With that yardstick, you'd accuse someone who prefers mashed potatoes with gravy instead of knishes of anti-semitism.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n229/kampkirk88/roflolrhardgm1.gif ~BH

[harry tuttle]

I'd love to lob those rockets at you and your family. Sadistic are we?

After all theyre only like BB's and whatever injuries can come about are only minor and if there is a death that's only because the people were not intelligent to get out of the way. But really, the rockets are nothing.With like an .008% kll rate, yes.

Because no war was ever won with use of proportional force.Therefore Israel reciprocates with disproportional force. Thank you for the admission.

[harry tuttle]

Why won't it be fun? They're only like BB's.I don't consider shooting BB's or kind of bullets at anyone "fun". But hey, whatever floats your boat. If that's what Israel wants to do, then take advantage of all that "fun". It's not my country. It's yours.

[nofear2]

Sadistic are we? I am sadistic the same way you are an antisemite.

With like an .008% kll rate, yes.So why can't I lob them at your family?


Therefore Israel reciprocates with disproportional force. Thank you for the admission.
Disproportional force is met disproportional force. Not our fault the Palestinian parasites can't dodge our bullets.

[nofear2]

I don't consider shooting BB's or kind of bullets at anyone "fun".

Oh please the rockets I'd shoot at your family are all harmless.

[nofear2]

I still don't get why the rockets wouldn't be fun. It's all a good game. I fire them at your house you run and hide and we all have fun.
I mean don't get me wrong. With a .008% kill rate we can't go wrong. You don't even need a plan to be able to run and hide! Because the kill rate is so so low!

[harry tuttle]

Oh please the rockets I'd shoot at your family are all harmless.
I am sadistic the same way you are an antisemite.
So why can't I lob them at your family?

Disproportional force is met disproportional force. Not our fault the Palestinian parasites can't dodge our bullets.
I still don't get why the rockets wouldn't be fun. It's all a good game. I fire them at your house you run and hide and we all have fun.
I mean don't get me wrong. With a .008% kill rate we can't go wrong. You don't even need a plan to be able to run and hide! Because the kill rate is so so low!It is my sincere hope that other Israelis are quite unlike you.

Good night.

[Mar2000]

Hey Ben? Is that the only defense that you have when someone disagree's with Israel about anything? Your calling him an Anti-Semite because he has an individual opinion on certain Israeli Policies. You are treating him like he is some Neo-Nazi. It's pretty weak minded bro. Why don't you use the label when it fits? If you think that you can silence those people who disgree with your one sided views by labeling them an Anti-semite, you're wrong.

While on the subject, The Mods here, 2 for sure, have repeatedly stated that labeling someone as an anti-Semite just because they don't support everything Israel does, is against the rules here. Just some advice. Try actually debating, instead of spreading race-baiting propaganda about posters here. ~BH

Anti-semite, as usually used here, is nothing but a worn out label. The more they are thrown the more irrelevant they become. Old tactics of the well-trained Israel-first crowd, nothing but laughable.

[Mar2000]

I am sadistic the same way you are an antisemite.

And there you go :lol:

[ben41281]

It is my sincere hope that other Israelis are quite unlike you.

Good night.

At leaste the Isrealis are quite capable of kiling the parasitic terrorists. Often reducing the palistinians to throwing rocks! GOOD! IMHO kill the cockroaches! It makes the whole world cleaner!

[orfannkyl]

terrorists are bad

[nofear2]

It is my sincere hope that other Israelis are quite unlike you.

Good night.
So instead of critically discerning the meaning of my statements you try to say that I am sadistic dark and evil. Funny, because maybe I am, maybe I'm not. Then again Israeli's are all sadistic killers of Palestinian children no? Those rockets which have a .008% kill rate are only dangerous when being shot at you but when they're terrorizing Israeli civilians they're "nothing", they're only BB's no? I'm aware that the concept of common sense and intelligence are quite foreign to your kind (as so to say that you are stupid), or is it really (and perhaps you really are antisemitic)?

For the record I happened to have served in the IDF for 30 years as a career officer. I participated in 3 wars and was part of countless operations. Yet for all my military training and experience in war, I didn't need to be told that ANY bullet, ANY rocket, ANY grenade, and ANY mortar shot your way, regardless of whether it'd kill or not is a danger which does more harm especially if it doesn't kill.

Having said this, your argument is one million percent irrelevant. Your delivery of this argument shows to me one of 2 things - either you are a genuine idiot (which I sincerely hope for), or that you believe that Jewish life can be toyed with (how dare those Jews stand up for their people) which would make you nothing short of an antisemitic pig.

[nofear2]

Thanks to AIPAC's prositutes in DC you can start with Iraq. 'Security' of Israel is a fetish of every 'elite' in DC.

If this is in fact the truth then the jokes not on us :)) :)) :)) :))

[CMike11]

It doesn't matter how many rockets actually hit people.

Shooting missiles into civilian cities creates terror which is what the terrorists want. Israel must do what it can to stop these terrorists from terrorizing its citizens.

No, it doesn't need to be proportional it needs to be effective.

[BigBagel]

At leaste the Isrealis are quite capable of kiling the parasitic terrorists. Often reducing the palistinians to throwing rocks! GOOD! IMHO kill the cockroaches! It makes the whole world cleaner!
Equating a whole people with cockroaches.....sounds like you have a lot of hatred in your heart.

[ben41281]

Equating a whole people with cockroaches.....sounds like you have a lot of hatred in your heart.


Really? I was reffering to the palasstinian terrorist, or do you think it's too harsh to reffer to them as cockroaches? Oh, and sorry to burst your bubble, the palestinians voted for Humas terrorists in their last election. So spare me your BS.

[BigBagel]

Really? I was reffering to the palasstinian terrorist, or do you think it's too harsh to reffer to them as cockroaches? Oh, and sorry to burst your bubble, the palestinians voted for Humas terrorists in their last election. So spare me your BS.
I reread your post and did not see any reference to terrorists just Palestinians. I guess you just made a mistake when you wrote it and did not mean to dehumanize a whole group of people and advocate their genocide. I'm glad you clarified it.

[ben41281]

I reread your post and did not see any reference to terrorists just Palestinians. I guess you just made a mistake when you wrote it and did not mean to dehumanize a whole group of people and advocate their genocide. I'm glad you clarified it.

I did not advocate genocide, but since you brought it up. You might want to get look at the Humas flag, it reads death to Isreal on it! And those are the poeple that the palistinians elected in their most recent election. So please spare me the BS! They would gladly kill every Jew, every Christian, and anyone else who doesn't buy into their wacked-out version of Islam!

So I will ask again. What would you have Isreal do? If you can't give an honest answer to that question, it'll let us all know where you really stand! My position is simple, Isreal should defend themselves ANY way they see fit. I would say the same about our country, or any country!

[CMike11]

I reread your post and did not see any reference to terrorists just Palestinians. I guess you just made a mistake when you wrote it and did not mean to dehumanize a whole group of people and advocate their genocide. I'm glad you clarified it.

I understood it, he was referring to the terrorists. The people some of the posters here keep defening and making excuses for :boohoo:

[CMike11]

I reread your post and did not see any reference to terrorists just Palestinians. I guess you just made a mistake when you wrote it and did not mean to dehumanize a whole group of people and advocate their genocide. I'm glad you clarified it.

Ben "At leaste the Isrealis are quite capable of kiling the parasitic terrorists. Often reducing the palistinians to throwing rocks! GOOD! IMHO kill the cockroaches! It makes the whole world cleaner!"

Happy to help :D

[BigBagel]

I did not advocate genocide, but since you brought it up. You might want to get look at the Humas flag, it reads death to Isreal on it! And those are the poeple that the palistinians elected in their most recent election. So please spare me the BS! They would gladly kill every Jew, every Christian, and anyone else who doesn't buy into their wacked-out version of Islam!

So I will ask again. What would you have Isreal do? If you can't give an honest answer to that question, it'll let us all know where you really stand! My position is simple, Isreal should defend themselves ANY way they see fit. I would say the same about our country, or any country!
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if-i-were-an-arab-leader-i-would-never-sign-an/347288.html)

What should Israel do? Continue doing what their doing. The above quote details the situation perfectly. There won't be peace just continued conflict so go at it. I just don't want the United States involved.

[nofear2]

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if-i-were-an-arab-leader-i-would-never-sign-an/347288.html)

What should Israel do? Continue doing what their doing. The above quote details the situation perfectly. There won't be peace just continued conflict so go at it. I just don't want the United States involved.

Couldn't agree more. That is how Arabs saw it from day 1. As for the US support that is your governments choice - one which is not made for bad reasons I assume.

[ben41281]

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if-i-were-an-arab-leader-i-would-never-sign-an/347288.html)

What should Israel do? Continue doing what their doing. The above quote details the situation perfectly. There won't be peace just continued conflict so go at it. I just don't want the United States involved.

Since when has the U.S. been actively involed in defending Isreal? I've never seen our soldiers there, except for exercizes with the Isreali army. Now are you suggesting we stop training with our allies?

[nofear2]

Since when has the U.S. been actively involed in defending Isreal? I've never seen our soldiers there, except for exercizes with the Isreali army. Now are you suggesting we stop training with our allies?

I actually trained (not on my own) about 150 US Marines in Krav Maga in the late 80's.

[ben41281]

I actually trained (not on my own) about 150 US Marines in Krav Maga in the late 80's.

When I was in the army we spent two months in Isreal training with the Isreali army. Two large groups of warriors, you can imagine the stories we traded. I still keep in touch with a few of them. I can't remember where we trained, we did urban warfare training with them.

[BigBagel]

Since when has the U.S. been actively involed in defending Isreal? I've never seen our soldiers there, except for exercizes with the Isreali army. Now are you suggesting we stop training with our allies?
Limiting out assistance to a few training exercises it would be great.

[ben41281]

Limiting out assistance to a few training exercises it would be great.

So, would you ever give other assistance to one of our allies? What if they were invaded by another country? Should we withdraw from NATO to? Your distaste for Isreal seems to be linked to something else. What might that be?

[nofear2]

Limiting out assistance to a few training exercises it would be great.

Tell me, what would be so great about it? I'm open to opinion and I'm not about to call you antisemitic.

[Streelsh]

I take it you missed all those news reports about Israel firing missiles at the Palestinian territories. Israel has slaughtered far more innocent people than the have the Palestinians with their rocket attacks.

This is why people are angry at Israel - because they slaughter civilians and deliberately destroy infrastructure and homes.

Celtic Pax had it right ! The apologists for the Arabs are alive and well !and none is higher on the list than old Percy who has a an interesting way of distorting the facts:

1) It was HAMAS - not Israel - that started firing rockets and mortars . Indeed FROM THE VERY FIRST DAY THAT ISRAEL RETREATED FROM GAZA A FEW YEARS AGO HAMAS started firing rockets ( no less than SEVEN THOUSAND) until Israel - doing what ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT WOULD DO FOR ITS CITIZENS decided to take out the rockets AND THE ROCKETERS

(MAY 14, 2008)”ASHKELON HIT AT THE MALL”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K81TDD9F70k&feature=related

(1/ 1/2009)“HAMAS ATTACKING SDEROT,SO DON’T ASK WHY ISRAEL IS BOMBING GAZA”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7GFkORHRNk&feature=related


2) It is true that Israel was destroyed some infrastuctures BUT THESE WERE SMUGGLING TUNNELS through which HAMAS was smuggling in machine guns, rockets, rocket launching weapons, mortars, mortar rounds and explosives. Indeed they PURPOSELY AVOIDED blowing up some tunnels because their intelligence told them that HAMAS had oil pipelines also running through them ( with hundreds of thousands of gallons of oil and gasoline running through as well)and the Israelis were afraid that ALL OF GAZA would blow up in the secondary and tertiary explosions

3) As far as slaughtering civilians:: to the extent they were killing so-called "civilians" who in fact were HAMAS operatives ---> they should have slaughtered MORE.
However

A. Israel gave up the element of surprise because they gave "civilians" a 2 minute warning to evacuate their homes that they had given to HAMAS to use to store motar rounds and fire them at Israel

AND
B)


HAMAS used these civilians as "human shields" which is a violation of the Geneva Conventions

See YOUTUBES:


“HAMAS USING CHILDREN AS SHIELDS”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE&NR=1


“HAMAS – HUMAN SHIELD CONFESSION” (MEMRI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&NR=1


“HUMAN SHIELDS – HAMAS IN ACTION”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE&feature=related

“HAMAS USING CHILDREN AS HUMAN SHIELDS”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vt69IOGC8&feature=related

“4 TERRORISTS BEHIND A WOMAN AND HER BABY”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXnD0xGIxRU&feature=related


Percy:: You and Tuttle can't spread your untrue propaganda without being called on it !!!!

[BigBagel]

Tell me, what would be so great about it? I'm open to opinion and I'm not about to call you antisemitic.
But anyone who questions our relationship with Israel is an anti-Semite. I have to be one.

[nofear2]

But anyone who questions our relationship with Israel is an anti-Semite. I have to be one.

How mature :))

[nofear2]

But anyone who questions our relationship with Israel is an anti-Semite. I have to be one.

I'm an Israeli and I have absolutely no allegiance to America save for the fact that they are our ally. Now please explain to me, what is so harmful about the US investing in Israel's defence?

[CMike11]

Limiting out assistance to a few training exercises it would be great.

I think joint operations against terrorists would be a great thing.

[BigBagel]

I'm an Israeli and I have absolutely no allegiance to America save for the fact that they are our ally. Now please explain to me, what is so harmful about the US investing in Israel's defence?
nofear, visit upstate New York if and when you visit the US. It's an economic wasteland and so are other regions of the US. I see the USA as failing empire. It's military might is based upon it's economic might and it's economic might is waning. I'd like to see us downsize our military commitments across the globe. South Korea, Germany etc., etc. they should all be fair game. Our legions are deployed across the globe and there's a failed state on our southern border. You guys just blew the hell out of Gaza and we're doppy enough to come up with foreign aid to rebuild the place. We borrow 13% of our deficit spending from China. I'm an American nationalist, not an internationalist. Will we voluntarily downsize? No. We're following the path of Rome.

[CMike11]

I do agree that giving $900 million to the Hamas terrorists is an extremely stupid thing to do :boohoo:

Isolationism doesn't work in the world today. Unfortunately, terrorists have no problem of trying to come to the US to spread terror.

The choices are clear:

Either the US goes to where the terrorists are with the help of allies and kills them there, or the US can wait for the next terrorist attack within the US.

One terrorist that Israel kills, is one terrorist that will never attack the US. The arab terrorist groups are networked together. Israel is doing American's job for it just like it did when Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor, which the US condemned.

[BigBagel]

I do agree that giving $900 million to the Hamas terrorists is an extremely stupid thing to do :boohoo:

Isolationism doesn't work in the world today. Unfortunately, terrorists have no problem of trying to come to the US to spread terror.

The choices are clear:

Either the US goes to where the terrorists are with the help of allies and kills them there, or the US can wait for the next terrorist attack within the US.

One terrorist that Israel kills, is one terrorist that will never attack the US. The arab terrorist groups are networked together. Israel is doing American's job for it just like it did when Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor, which the US condemned.
Why do they attack us Mike. Your not allowed to say because we love freedom. I'm sure your smarter then that.

[CMike11]

Why do they attack us Mike. Your not allowed to say because we love freedom. I'm sure your smarter then that.

Because we exist. Because we are not ruled according to islamic law.

I want to stress that I am no way indicting all muslims. I am only talking about the terrorists and the states that sponsor them.

[nofear2]

nofear, visit upstate New York if and when you visit the US. It's an economic wasteland and so are other regions of the US. I see the USA as failing empire. It's military might is based upon it's economic might and it's economic might is waning. I'd like to see us downsize our military commitments across the globe. South Korea, Germany etc., etc. they should all be fair game. Our legions are deployed across the globe and there's a failed state on our southern border. You guys just blew the hell out of Gaza and we're doppy enough to come up with foreign aid to rebuild the place. We borrow 13% of our deficit spending from China. I'm an American nationalist, not an internationalist. Will we voluntarily downsize? No. We're following the path of Rome.


While I understand your position I do not think that international investment is what is ailing your economy. This problem mainly is in big government spending on programs which need not all the money which is invested in them. Coupled with that you have a President who on a daily basis speaks doom gloom and suffering. Has he ever understood the impact this has on his people? I doubt it. The point is that while it would be in fact a good idea downsize your international investments (rebuilding Gaza is an example of such a blunder) it is not wise to fully cut them off. Israel (despite what others see) contributes more than any other ally when it comes to Americas national defence. America gets at least half of their intelligence from Israel being as the Mossad is the one organization that has fully penetrated the Arab world. Before the war in Iraq many of Americas top units were sent to Israel to learn how to manage in urban warfare

Last but not least, while your comparison with Rome is sound you must remember - Before Rome was destroyed she had already destroyed herself. If you are going to be cutting your spending don't only focus on the international community.

[nofear2]

Why do they attack us Mike. Your not allowed to say because we love freedom. I'm sure your smarter then that.

I can tell you for certain that it had nothing to do with the support for Israel. For if Al Qaeda was so worried about the Palestinians they would have sent their people to Israel rather then hit America.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

I'm an Israeli and I have absolutely no allegiance to America save for the fact that they are our ally. Now please explain to me, what is so harmful about the US investing in Israel's defence?

How about this for starters?

http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Let Israel fund their own Military. Let Hamas rebuild themselves. As a matter of fact, Let the whole Planet fund themselves and let's focus on our own Country that is going Bankrupt? What a ****ing joke! They level the place, and we rebuild it. If you Israelis desire peace so much, rebuild it yourselves. ;)

The fact that we would give aid to Hamas or to Israels Military is insanity right now. We can't afford it. Madness, pure madness. ~BH

[harry tuttle]

Now please explain to me, what is so harmful about the US investing in Israel's defence?It's expensive, and we Americans have enough of our own problems to deal with without worrying about theirs.

[nofear2]

How about this for starters?

http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Let Israel fund their own Military. Let Hamas rebuild themselves. As a matter of fact, Let the whole Planet fund themselves and let's focus on our own Country that is going Bankrupt? What a ****ing joke! They level the place, and we rebuild it. If you Israelis desire peace so much, rebuild it yourselves. ;)

The fact that we would give aid to Hamas or to Israels Military is insanity right now. We can't afford it. Madness, pure madness. ~BH

What does the incident with the USS liberty have to do wit anything? That was in 1967 what does it have to do with now? You didn't give us a dime back then and we had to fend for ourselves with your ship spying on us. Your State Department should have pulled the ship when they were warned.

I don't care for the Palestinians. They screwed up let them fend for themselves.

Economically speaking your government is not harming its economy by funding parts of Israels military as much as it is harming it's own economy by trying to forge an impossible peace between Israel and the Palestinians. For when Israel goes to war for wrongs done to them by the Palestinians, the US calls all the time for restraint and then urges Israel to try and make peace once more. History shows that this just leads to Israel conceding more, realizing its mistake, leveling a chunk of Gaza and then the US paying for its rebuilding and the training of Palestinian "security" forces.

In short you see from here that the US is funding 2 sides of an endless cycle of conflict. Were they to stay out of calling for restraint, rebuilding Gaza or trying to make peace between their ally and another people who dance in the streets on 9/11, the problem with funding Israel would have been non-existent.

[nofear2]

It's expensive, and we Americans have enough of our own problems to deal with without worrying about theirs.

Was that you holding the banner which read "burn Jews not oil"?

[nofear2]

Here's to you Harry

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50701591&postcount=109

[harry tuttle]

What does the incident with the USS liberty have to do wit anything? That was in 1967 what does it have to do with now? You didn't give us a dime back then Why should we pay Israel a dime to kill us?
and we had to fend for ourselves with your ship spying on us.If you were fending for yourselves because we were spying on you, then was it an accident?

No.

Your State Department should have pulled the ship when they were warned.Definitely not an accident.

I don't care for the Palestinians. They screwed up let them fend for themselves. Just like the attackers of the USS Liberty were fending for themselves. If it's good for you, it's good for them.

Economically speaking your government is not harming its economy by funding parts of Israels military as much as it is harming it's own economy by trying to forge an impossible peace between Israel and the Palestinians. For when Israel goes to war for wrongs done to them by the Palestinians, the US calls all the time for restraint and then urges Israel to try and make peace once more. History shows that this just leads to Israel conceding more, realizing its mistake, leveling a chunk of Gaza and then the US paying for its rebuilding and the training of Palestinian "security" forces.That's why it's a mistake for the US to be involved in the conflict. But you don't mind as long as it benefits Israel.

Friends don't let friends spend like a drunken soldier. Israel is no friend of the US.

In short you see from here that the US is funding 2 sides of an endless cycle of conflict. Were they to stay out of calling for restraint, rebuilding Gaza or trying to make peace between their ally and another people who dance in the streets on 9/11, the problem with funding Israel would have been non-existent.The US should stay out, period.

[harry tuttle]

Was that you holding the banner which read "burn Jews not oil"?No, that wasn't me.

Any more smart questions?

[nofear2]

No, that wasn't me.

Any more smart questions?

Looked awfully similar to you. My eyes don't cheat me.

[nofear2]

Why should we pay Israel a dime to kill us?
If you were fending for yourselves because we were spying on you, then was it an accident?

No.

Definitely not an accident.

Just like the attackers of the USS Liberty were fending for themselves. If it's good for you, it's good for them.
That's why it's a mistake for the US to be involved in the conflict. But you don't mind as long as it benefits Israel.

Friends don't let friends spend like a drunken soldier. Israel is no friend of the US.

The US should stay out, period.As usual since you have an agenda you focus on a point which is one hundred percent irrelevant. What happened in the past stays in the past. You were not an ally then with us and we had no obligation to you. You decided to spy and we called your state dept who were irresponsible in getting the ship out of the way. We learned how to do let go of grudges after your CIA allied themselves and overlooked the security of Black Septembers leaders.

If you can't be mature enough to drop what happened at an irrelevant time ten it shows you either lack maturity or you just don't like Jews.

[harry tuttle]

Looked awfully similar to you. My eyes don't cheat me.They did this time.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

What does the incident with the USS liberty have to do wit anything? That was in 1967 what does it have to do with now?

You asked the question, so I gave it to you.

You didn't give us a dime back then

Oh I doubt that.

and we had to fend for ourselves with your ship spying on us.

LOL!!! Spying on you, and for what reason? You were such a Danger with your French Jets? I'll give you this, atleast you're Man enough to admit that you did it on purpose. You might want to educated a few of your apologists here.

Your State Department should have pulled the ship when they were warned.

Sure, but your operatives planted inside it, prevented that.

I don't care for the Palestinians. They screwed up let them fend for themselves.

I don't care about any of you over there. As a matter of fact, I am sick and tired of our Life out here in West being consumed 24/7 with your ******** day in and day out.

Economically speaking your government is not harming its economy by funding parts of Israels military as much as it is harming it's own economy by trying to forge an impossible peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Oh really? Should I provide you with the cost to every American? I can if you like? Also, I love how you take our funds and then turn around and charge us interest on our money through Banks that you own! I'll show you that too. ;)

For when Israel goes to war for wrongs done to them by the Palestinians, the US calls all the time for restraint and then urges Israel to try and make peace once more.

We are giving you the weapons. Urging peace is a load of rubbish. Of course they are gonna say that.

History shows that this just leads to Israel conceding more, realizing its mistake, leveling a chunk of Gaza and then the US paying for its rebuilding and the training of Palestinian "security" forces.

Do as you like, just don't expect us to fund anything to do with it. Just one Man's opinion. It's nothing personal.

In short you see from here that the US is funding 2 sides of an endless cycle of conflict.

I agree with you on that.

Were they to stay out of calling for restraint, rebuilding Gaza or trying to make peace between their ally and another people who dance in the streets on 9/11, the problem with funding Israel would have been non-existent.

I doubt that. However, Like I said before, I could care less about funding either of you over there. My concern is the United States of America. Oh, and I almost forgot. Your welcome bro. ~BH

[harry tuttle]

As usual since you have an agenda you focus on a point which is one hundred percent irrelevant. What happened in the past stays in the past. You were not an ally then with us and we had no obligation to you. You decided to spy and we called your state dept who were irresponsible in getting the ship out of the way. We learned how to do this when your CIA allied themselves and overlooked the security of Black Septembers leaders.You admit that it wasn't an accident.

US soldiers died because Israel's deliberate attack. Thank you for clearing that up. I've waited 42 years for this.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

You admit that it wasn't an accident.

US soldiers died because Israel's deliberate attack. Thanks for clearing that up. I've waited 42 years for this.

He's Israeli, he know's what happend. It's some of the brainwashed morons here who can't study Historical facts. ~BH

[harry tuttle]

He's Israeli, he know's what happend. It's some of the brainwashed morons here who can't study Historical facts. ~BHIt's a good thing that some Israelis are here to finally set the record straight, to let the truth finally be known.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

It's a good thing that some Israelis are here to finally set the record straight, to let the truth finally be known.

Yeah, I respect nofear2 for that though. However, He's gonna have a debate when a few other posters here show up on that one. Hopefully, he can educate them all, and then they can give those of us who defended our Men an apology. It's nothing personal against Israel and their struggle, and everything to do with the truth. ~BH

[harry tuttle]

yeah, i repect nofear2 for that though. However, he's gonna have a debate when a few other posters here show up on that one. Hopefully, he can educate them all, and then they can give those of us who defended our men an apology. It's nothing personal against israel and their struggle, and everything to do with the truth. ~bh+1

[Mar2000]

It's expensive, and we Americans have enough of our own problems to deal with without worrying about theirs.

This statement should be imprinted on every official’s forehead before taking office.

And until we get our own problems under control - if anyone starts yapping about Israel or any other foreign country he should be thrown out of office the same evening.

[Mar2000]

What does the incident with the USS liberty have to do wit anything? That was in 1967 what does it have to do with now? You didn't give us a dime back then and we had to fend for ourselves with your ship spying on us. Your State Department should have pulled the ship when they were warned.

I don't care for the Palestinians. They screwed up let them fend for themselves.

Economically speaking your government is not harming its economy by funding parts of Israels military as much as it is harming it's own economy by trying to forge an impossible peace between Israel and the Palestinians. For when Israel goes to war for wrongs done to them by the Palestinians, the US calls all the time for restraint and then urges Israel to try and make peace once more. History shows that this just leads to Israel conceding more, realizing its mistake, leveling a chunk of Gaza and then the US paying for its rebuilding and the training of Palestinian "security" forces.

In short you see from here that the US is funding 2 sides of an endless cycle of conflict. Were they to stay out of calling for restraint, rebuilding Gaza or trying to make peace between their ally and another people who dance in the streets on 9/11, the problem with funding Israel would have been non-existent.

Staying the **** away from the ME, like most other countries do, is the smart policy - let Israel and Pals work/fight it out and pay consequences.

Our involvement causes more issues (hatred and terrorism towards us due to our bias, irresponsible expenses we can’t afford), than ‘rewards’ (like control over oil, or the global fight between the $ and Euro).

[ben41281]

I'm an Israeli and I have absolutely no allegiance to America save for the fact that they are our ally. Now please explain to me, what is so harmful about the US investing in Israel's defence?

Absolutely nothing is harmfull about it. I think we need to invest in helping all our allies around the world. If possible through technology or equipment, but if required active defense! I guess I'm strange, if I here someone calling for help I tend to want to help them. To not help them, I become just as bad as the attackers.

[ben41281]

You admit that it wasn't an accident.

US soldiers died because Israel's deliberate attack. Thank you for clearing that up. I've waited 42 years for this.


It's a non issue. And oh yeah, I'm a retired soldier. They were getting ready to fight a war multiple fronts, they needed to eliminate the enemies eyes. Sounds reasonable to me, not that I like it, but it's part of war.

It was 42 year ago, get over it. It's not the first time we soldiers were put into harms way and died. And sometimes, we become allies with those who killed us or we killed them, years ago. Warriors don't hold grudges with their adversaries!

[ben41281]

This statement should be imprinted on every official’s forehead before taking office.

And until we get our own problems under control - if anyone starts yapping about Israel or any other foreign country he should be thrown out of office the same evening.

This is actually a very sad statement. Do you realize that one of the few countries that sent aid to the U.S. after hurricane Katrina, was Isreal! They sent tons of supplies! I know, I hauled some of it from the airports and docks to where it was needed.

I really am getting sick of the anti-semitism. Why all the hatred? It would seem Isreal and the U.S. have a lot in common. We are allies, and we should treat each other as such.

[Fire Watch]

This attitude of "let's not help our allies because the bad guys wont like us" is nothing but ignorance, cowardice, and morally reprehensible. In truth, it's anti-Semitism in disguise..why in disguise? Because again, it's pure cowardice and ignorance.

[REAGAN RULES]

This attitude of "let's not help our allies because the bad guys wont like us" is nothing but ignorance, cowardice, and morally reprehensible. In truth, it's anti-Semitism in disguise..why in disguise? Because again, it's pure cowardice and ignorance.
Right on Ben41281 & Mar2000. As I recall, after the Declaration of Independence of Israel that solidified them as a sovereign state, they extended a hand of Peace to "all" of their neighbors only to be attacked the next day. With all of the attacks and distain shown to Israel since that day, it is my opinion that you will never convince someone that has a negative opinion of Israel that self defense is a viable option to preservation. Maybe Israel should ask Annette Bening to sit down with Hamas and tell them to let Israel alone.

"When peace has been broken anywhere, the peace of all countries everywhere is in danger".

[CMike11]

NoFear is probably unfamiliar with the USS Liberty accident.

ALL US government investigations concluded it was an accident. Yet, the other side still posts the same lies.

Once again::rolleyes:

http://www.adl.org/Israel/uss.asp


Official reports related to the Liberty incident (a sampling, selected from A. Jay Cristol's book The Liberty Incident - uncited statements in quotation marks are from the reports)

U.S. Reports

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry, June 18, 1967
" Available evidence combines to indicate the attack on the Liberty on 8 June was in fact a case of mistaken identity."

CIA Report, June 13, 1967
The attack was a mistake. In 1978, in a response to an inquiry, Director of Central Intelligence Stansfield Turner wrote: "It remains our best judgment that the Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was not made in malice toward the United States and was a mistake."

Joint Chiefs of Staff, Russ Report, June 9-20, 1967 General Russ did not make any findings about the actual attack. The report compiled all message traffic and contains no evidence that the attack was not a mistake.

Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, Clifford Report, July 18, 1967
"The information thus far available does not reflect that the Israeli high command made a premeditated attack on a ship known to be American…. "

National Security Agency, 1981
"Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculation and egregious errors."


Israeli Report
Ram Ron Commission of Inquiry, June 16, 1967
"[T]he attack on the ship by the Israeli Defense Forces was made neither maliciously nor in gross negligence, but as a result of a bona fide mistake."

[kenpoman]

This attitude of "let's not help our allies because the bad guys wont like us" is nothing but ignorance, cowardice, and morally reprehensible. In truth, it's anti-Semitism in disguise..why in disguise? Because again, it's pure cowardice and ignorance.

+1

very well put.

[CMike11]

Once again, this is the actual US Naval Inquiry report, you can also read all the testimony by going to the link. I am just going to give the

"Findings Of Fact"
http://www.ussliberty.org/nci.txt

FINDINGS OF FACT

1. Available evidence combines to indicate the attack on
LIBERTY on 8 June was in fact a case of mistaken
identity.
2. The calm conditions and slow ship speed may well have
made the American Flag difficult to identify.

3. The ship's westerly heading at the time of attack - in
the general direction of Egyptian ports may have
reinforced elements of doubt in the minds of the several
Israeli pilots who looked the ship over in the forenoon.

4. The colors were shot down early in the action and were
replaced prior to the PT attack.

5. The immediate confusion milling around astern followed
by peaceful

[161]

overtures by the attacking surface forces after launching
only two torpedoes of the six presumed available (two on
each PT boat), indicate these craft may well have identified
the colors for the first time when they got in close enough
to see clearly through the smoke and flames billowing, at
times above the mast head.

6. There are no available indications that the attack was
intended against a U. S. Ship.

7. LIBERTY'S position at the time of the attack has been
previously ordered changed farther to seaward by JCS;
however, the messages relating to these changes were not
known to the ship before the attack took place. The reasons
these messages were not known to the ship can be determined
in all instances except for one. Since LIBERTY records and
knowledgeable personnel were lost in the action, it is
impossible to determine the disposition of the message.

8. The communication delays and mis-routing errors which
caused these several non-deliveries combined with delays in
initiating follow-up actions on operational instructions
received, all contributed to the ship itself being unaware
of plans and decisions made for her repositioning. A
detailed accounting of the five pertinent messages are
attached as appendices one through five.

9. The absence of any identifiable threat to the ship
apparently caused the foregoing referred to operational
actions to be taken and implemented in routine manner, i.e.,
without resorting to highest precedence (Flash) traffic.

10. USS LIBERTY was assigned technical research tasks to be
performed in the eastern Mediterranean by the Joint Chiefs
of Staff. LIBERTY first became aware of this new tasking
when she received sailing orders from Abidjan on the Ivory
Coast on the 24th day of May 1967. The precise tasking by
which LIBERTY was ordered to depart Abidjan is significant.
In this tasking language, LIBERTY was directed to proceed to
her new operating area in the eastern Mediterranean via Rota
for pick-up of specifics at "best speed."

[162]

11. LIBERTY received her basic operational and mission
guidance from the JCS through her new operational chain in
JCS 011545Z. LIBERTY proceeded to comply.

12. The Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY conducted the
operations of his ship in accordance with the intent of
directives received by him. The operating area of LIBERTY on
8 June was in accordance with the announce- ments of
intended movement promulgated by the Commanding Officer USS
LIBERTY. Such operating areas were normal to the
accomplishment of LIBERTY's mission. These announcements
were addressed to, and presumably received, by all seniors
in the chain of LIBERTY's operational command. LIBERTY
received no directive, prior to the attack, that higher
authority desired that the ship operate at least 100 miles
from the coastline of the UAR.

13. LIBERTY responded to her newly assigned mission by
departing Abidjan promptly within some four hours from the
time of receipt of her sailing orders. LIBERTY experienced
minor engineering difficulties enroute Rota which caused
her arrival there somewhat later than originally planned.
On departure Rota, LIBERTY filed her movement report and
declared therein her intention to make best speed in
compliance with the JCS detailed tasking assignments set
forth in JCS message dtg 011545Z June 1967. It is
significant to note that in this JCS tasking, two time
frames were identified, one covering the period between 1
June through 8 June, the second covering the period 9 June
to 30 June. During the first period (1 through 8 June),
LIBERTY's movements were prescribed by the JCS to cover her
transit along the north African littoral; and therein were
prescribed minimum closest points of approach allowed to
national maritime boundaries. The terminal point in this 1
through 8 June time frame was to be a navigational position
at latitude 32 North, longitude 33 East. The second time
frame addressed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, assigned
LIBERTY an operating area bounded on the North by latitude
32 North, the north African/Israeli littoral on the south
and between longitudes 33 East and 34 East. It might well
occur to some that LIBERTY's attack occurred on 8 June,
which would have placed her considerably farther to the
North of the African coast, had she conformed explicitly
with the aforementioned JCS directive. However, as LIBERTY
proceeded eastward through the Mediterranean from Rota, she
filed three separate messages

[163]

reports of position and intent which advised superiors of
her plans to anticipate arrival on station - that is, to
arrive somewhat earlier than prescribed by the Joint Chiefs
of Staff. Moreover, LIBERTY advised superiors of her
specific intentions to proceed to and operate in the closer
of the two areas to the north African coast - that is south
of latitude 32 north. Finally in this regard, LIBERTY
reported her arrival at her final destination to appropriate

14. It is understood from representatives of the JCS Fact
Finding Group that it was receipt of LIBERTY's 7 June
SITREP/POSIT report which stated her final destination which
prompted concern in the JRC as to her proximity to the
African coast on the night of June 7th. This concern by
responsible authorities, who initially has tasked LIBERTY,
resulted in follow-on actions and directives to the ship
which were either never received or were transmitted on the
fleet broadcast from NAVCOMMSTA Asmara after the attack has
taken place.

15. Pertinent to the findings of fact is the matter of
communication conditions regarding USS LIBERTY during the
period of 1 and 8 June. The ship is known not to have
received at least five messages sent prior to the attack,
each of which was not only important but, in that respect,
critical to the events which terminated in the aggravated
attack on this ship on June the 8th.

16. Higher authority modified LIBERTY's original
operational guidance between June first and the attack on
the eighth, which, if she had received it, would have
resulted in her being further off shore.

17. Combination and compounding of many delayed
communication deliveries related to LIBERTY incident denied
the ship the benefit of command decisions actually made
prior to the attack which, among other things, would have
caused the ship, as a minimum, to be heading further
off-shore from her 081200Z actual position.

18. Pre-attack overflights of LIBERTY: (First air attack
occurred at 1403 local) Unidentified aircraft circled
LIBERTY at:

[164]

0850 ( 5 hours 13 minutes prior to attack) (080742Z refers)
1056 ( 3 hours 7 minutes prior to attack) 1126 ( 2 hours 37
minutes prior to attack) 081022Z refers

Hull markings were clean and freshly painted - ensign was
flying from foremast halyard.

19. Aircraft attack on LIBERTY Attack initiated by single
aircraft, making a run similar to previous overflights.
First warning that this aircraft had attacked ship was a
rocket explosion abaft the bridge, port side. In five of
six attacks, from various angles, two or more jet aircraft
at a time conducted strafing, rocket and incendiary attacks.

20. Motor Torpedo Boat attack on LIBERTY. Twenty minutes
following air attack, MTB's closed ship to a position 2000
yards on starboard quarter and signaled ship by flashing
light. At this time ship had been making turns for FLANK
speed for 9 minutes (Estima- ted SOA 15-17 knots). Holiday
ensign was flying from the starboard yardarm for at least
five minutes before torpedo attack was launched. LIBERTY 50
cal. guns opened fire while the MTS was signaling. The
torpedo attack was launched shortly after the MTBs were
fired upon, and MTB's strafed the ship with machine gun fire
as, at least, one MTB passed down the starboard side.

[CMike11]

More from the report, it was in fact an Israeli helo that first gave assistance to the survivors

24. Offers of assistance. Post air attack signaling by MTB's
(before torpedo attack), may have been an offer of
assistance.

Thirty minutes after attacking LIBERTY the MTBs signaled in
English, "Do you need help?"

Two hours and 10 minutes after torpedo attack (2 hours 40
minutes after air attack) an Israeli helo apparently offered
assistance.

Israeli defense forces reported they conducted air and
surface searches for survivors at the scene of the attack
responding to a U. S. request.

22. Groups of up to two and three jet and propeller
aircraft begin coming
[165]

out from shore and circling ship at altitudes ranging from
500 up to several thousand feet at about eight hundred local
on day of attack. Planes in question were otherwise active
over El Arish on Sinai north coast which was plainly visible
from the ship some sixteen miles off shore.

Ship's navigation was sound and practical, using bearings on
minaret in El Arish and radar range to beach at that point.

23. The ship had exercises at full G. Q. and secured only a
short time prior to the unprovoked attack. After securing
from G. Q., the Commanding Officer had admonished all hands
over the PA system that large billowing clouds of black
smoke ashore were evidence of intense military activity,
therefore, crew should be "heads up ball players" as long as
she was in that close.

24. From the time of first air attack onward, attackers
were well coord- inated, accurate and determined.
Criss-crossing rocket and machine gun runs from both bows,
both beams, and quarters effectively chewed up entire
topside including ship control and internal communications
(sound powered) network. Well directed initial air attacks
had wiped out the ability of the four 50 cal. machine guns
to be effective.

25. PT attack first developed from starboard side and was
identified as a high speed run in. Center and lead PT began
flashing signal light and very shortly thereafter the
Commanding Officer identified the Star of David flag on this
lead boat. LIBERTY's signal light had been shot away
requiring dependence upon an Aldis lamp to try and penetrate
the smoke on the bearing of the PTs.

26. The Commanding Officer had passed word to stand by for
torpedo attack and the forward starboard 50 cal. fired a
very short burst in the direction of the boats on the
gunner's own initiative. Having seen Israeli flag on the
PT, the Commanding Officer waved to the forward gunner to
cease firing. The after starboard gun, opened up at this
point, with apparently no one pulling the trigger. The
bridge could not see this gun for smoke and flame on the
starboard side, so the Commanding Officer sent a runner to
tell him cease fire. Before this runner could reach the
after starboard

[166]

gun, effective high volume fire from this gun was peppering
the water around the middle PT. It appears as though 50
Cal. ammunition was cooking off from intense fire. The gun
was seen to be firing with no one manning it.

27. The reaction of all three PTs immediately after launch,
when they stopped and milled around close aboard LIBERTY and
then offered help by signal light, combine to indicate this
was the first time the U. S. large colors flying were
actually positively identified. Not having signal lights
available, the Commanding Officer then made the
international flaghoist meaning, "Not Under Command."
28. Flat, calm conditions and the slow five knot patrol
speed of LIBERTY in forenoon when she was being looked over
initially may well have produced insufficient wind for
steaming colors enough to be seen by pilots.

29. USS LIBERTY had installed communications equipment
whose reliability and degree of sophistication produced a
feeling of maximum confidence in operators, the
Communications Officer, and the Commanding Officer
regarding the reliability of reception on fleet broadcast
which minimized the number of missed numbers.

30. In amplification of the proceeding statement, the
superior communi- cation capability inherent in LIBERTY's
embarked element for technical research purposes combined
with interests of economy in personnel have dictated that
during LIBERTY's operation in her present configuration she
used the best embarked equipments and personnel available to
serve both her technical research requirements as well as
operational and administrative requirements for the ship
itself. The resulting consolidation of functions found
LIBERTY organized internally in a way such that, in the
person of a single officer we find both LIBERTY's
Communication Officer and the Assistant Director of
Technical Research. This system had well. After the attack,
those LIBERTY personnel left alive who had been serving in
combined capacities of this sort reported their conviction
that such practices should continue.

[CMike11]

What bothers me about the "other side" is the blatant dishonesty

1) They have to back to 1967 and take an accident like USS Liberty and claim it was a deliberate act. Despite overwhelming documentation that it was an accident they still persist.

There is a point that when you are given overwhelming evidence and you continue making the same false claims it's now lying

2) They have to back over 60 years and cite the attack by the Irgun of the King David Hotel. However, by pure coincidence :rolleyes: they forget to mention that it was the british military HQ at the time

3) The further mention jewish attacks against the british military, however, neglect to mention that the british put jews in detention camps at that time, were making mass arrests, and doing other evil things to the jews

4) They complain and moan about aid to Israel, like it's bankrupting the US, however, the aid to Egypt which is pretty close never seems to bother them. Also Egypt has hardly been a good ally to the US, even helping terrorists who have plotted against the US

5) They mention the fight in Deir Yassin calling it a "massacre" yet, they neglect to mention that it was indeed a long protracted fight, where the Irgun took 41 casualties.

Why the selective memory? Why do they continue the same lies when confronted with proof?

Is it anti-semitism? Just a hatred of jews?

[kenpoman]

the whole Liberty thing is nothing more than a hobby horse for
anti-semites and their fellow travelers to hide behind.

if they really wanted to critize Israel the nation there are plenty
of legit venues. but Liberty is just too much like a Elders senario
they can't help but go for it.

its damn near Pavolvian.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

You admit that it wasn't an accident.

US soldiers died because Israel's deliberate attack. Thank you for clearing that up. I've waited 42 years for this.

How many Jews died in Europe because we refused to act? How many because we refused to believe them? How many have died because of our demanding restraint in the ME?

No, it wasn't an accident. And we had no business being there.

[CMike11]

It seeems that the arab terrorist apologists and bin Laden have something in common.

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world-middleeast/20090314/ML.Al.Qaida.Bin.Laden/


Bin Laden: Gaza offensive was a 'holocaust'
By OMAR SINAN, AP
5 hours ago
CAIRO — Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden called Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip a "holocaust" and lashed out at Arab governments that he said failed to stop the bloodshed in an audio recording broadcast Saturday.

Bin Laden, whose message was released in excerpts on Al-Jazeera TV, called Arab leaders hypocrites and accused them of sacrificing the Palestinians in Gaza and collaborating with Israel. The three-week offensive, which ended on Jan. 18, killed about 1,300 Palestinians, according to Palestinian human rights groups.

"It was clear that some of the Arab leaders have collaborated with the Crusader-Zionist alliance against our people, those whom America calls the moderate leaders," said bin Laden. "We must disown ourselves from all those" governments.

He did not mention any governments by name in the brief excerpts, but Egypt, in particular, drew criticism during the offensive for not opening its border with Gaza to more aid shipments and humanitarian cases.

Both Israel and Egypt have closed their borders with Gaza since the Islamic militant group Hamas violently seized control of the Palestinian territory in June 2007. The closure deepened economic hardship in the already impoverished strip, home to 1.4 million Palestinians.

It was bin Laden's second audio message on the Gaza offensive since January, when he urged Muslims to launch a jihad against Israel. It was not possible to verify the message's authenticity. A spokesman for Al-Jazeera refused to say how the network obtained the recording.

The terror leader again urged Muslims to fight Israel.

"The Gaza holocaust, amid this prolonged embargo, is an important historic event and a catastrophe that shows the necessity of distinguishing Muslims from hypocrites," he said. "It is not right that our situation after Gaza will be as it used to be before. There should be serious work and preparation for jihad to fulfill righteousness and defeat evil."

Bin Laden called on faithful Muslims to support militants in Iraq and said that country should be used as a departure point for attacks on Israel. He suggested fighters use a route from Iraq through Jordan and into the West Bank.

[nofear2]

They did this time.

Or perhaps you don't know how to read the banner you proudly hold up with those Hamas supporters by your side :))

[nofear2]

Oh I doubt that.You may want to check your history of when America became an ally of Israel.



LOL!!! Spying on you, and for what reason? You were such a Danger with your French Jets? I'll give you this, atleast you're Man enough to admit that you did it on purpose. You might want to educated a few of your apologists here.

Sure, but your operatives planted inside it, prevented that.

I don't care about any of you over there. As a matter of fact, I am sick and tired of our Life out here in West being consumed 24/7 with your ******** day in and day out.

Oh really? Should I provide you with the cost to every American? I can if you like? Also, I love how you take our funds and then turn around and charge us interest on our money through Banks that you own! I'll show you that too. ;)

We are giving you the weapons. Urging peace is a load of rubbish. Of course they are gonna say that.

Do as you like, just don't expect us to fund anything to do with it. Just one Man's opinion. It's nothing personal.

I doubt that. However, Like I said before, I could care less about funding either of you over there. My concern is the United States of America. Oh, and I almost forgot. Your welcome bro. ~BH

I guess I can infer from the statements above that you're not all that excited about your government supporting Israel...Oh well...Jokes on you :)) :)) :)) :))

(I'd say "thank you" had you been more polite. Yet being as I have always been an advocate of Israel rejecting US aid - in order to reject their political peace proposals, I will go ahead with the laughing.)

[nofear2]

He's Israeli, he know's what happend. It's some of the brainwashed morons here who can't study Historical facts. ~BH

You may as well blame you government for not pulling the ship out...after all they created the cover up to begin with.

[nofear2]

For the record for those of you who support Israel for all the right reasons I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[nofear2]

This is precisely one of the major reasons – OBL and other terrorists INAPPROPRIATE SEXUAL CONTENT REMOVED to that thought every day. And if you travel outside of US (or Israel) you may find others think so too – here I primarily refer to EU.
Actions speak louder then words - If he cared about the Palestinians he would have sent his men to Israel and NOT to America.

[nofear2]

It's a non issue. And oh yeah, I'm a retired soldier. They were getting ready to fight a war multiple fronts, they needed to eliminate the enemies eyes. Sounds reasonable to me, not that I like it, but it's part of war.

It was 42 year ago, get over it. It's not the first time we soldiers were put into harms way and died. And sometimes, we become allies with those who killed us or we killed them, years ago. Warriors don't hold grudges with their adversaries!
Agreed - Look at history, America had fought with Germany and they now work together. Japan was Americas biggest enemy during World War 2 yet they are now an ally of America. England - they burned the White House to the ground in 1814 - they are now one of Americas staunchest of allies.

But for those who do not cut some slack for Israel - it begs to question, do they really care about the USS Liberty or are they looking for an excuse to hate the Jewish State?

[REAGAN RULES]

The Jews were dedicated to the cause of American independence. In 1765, the famous Non-Importation Resolutions were drawn up, with the names of Jewish citizens impended to them; in accordance with those resolutions, adopted October 25th, 1765, merchants and other citizens of Philadelphia agreed "not to have any goods shipped from Great Britain until after the repeal of the Stamp Act." The Jewish signers included Benjamin Levy, David Franks, Samson Levy, Hyman Levy, Jr., Mathias Bush, Moses Mordecai, Michael Gratz, and Barnard Gratz. There were also Jews who fought for freedom in the literal sense: Francis Salvador, nicknamed the "Jewish Paul Revere" was the first Jew to die in the American Revolution, on August 1st, 1776. He also helped draft the South Carolina state constitution. Probably the most important Jewish patriot was Haym Solomon, a financier who worked with Robert Morris to raise money for the Continental Congress and George Washington's army. Robert Morris was the 1st Superintendent of Finance. It was then that he turned to Haym Solomon for help in raising money needed to carry on the war and later to save our young nation from financial collapse. Solomon also paid government officials and army officers with his own resources. Solomon was a successful merchant and banker who accumulated a huge fortune, much of which he put @ the disposal of the American government during the Revolution. Ironically, Morris and Solomon, never had their massive loans repaid despite having close personal relationships with president Washington. Both men died penniless. Another Jewish creditor of the Continental Congress, Aaron Levy, was never fully repaid, either. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like we are indebted to Israel. Just think, if Solomon was alive today, the Dems would no doubt tax him for being successful.:flag:

[ben41281]

Agreed - Look at history, America had fought with Germany and they now work together. Japan was Americas biggest enemy during World War 2 yet they are now an ally of America. England - they burned the White House to the ground in 1814 - they are now one of Americas staunchest of allies.

But for those who do not cut some slack for Israel - it begs to question, do they really care about the USS Liberty or are they looking for an excuse to hate the Jewish State?

I think they are just looking for an excuse to to hate Isreal! One that would take away from their real reason for their hate! It's actually quite sad, most of the Americans who hate Isreal are "Christians". I as a Christian don't understand that. Why for that matter would any Christian hate Jews? That would be like saying you hate Jesus, after all his mother was a Jew! It would seem our religions are like two brothers, both trying to get to the same place, but we have taken differant paths to get there. In the end, we are still brothers, and should treat each other as such! Just my opinion I know, but it makes sense.

[CMike11]

Some time ago I worked for Rush Limbaugh.

He used to get a lot of hate Israel/hate jews mail from so called conservatives.

It used to disturb him greatly.

You have the a staunch loyal ally of the US, Israel, that has been existing despite overwhelming odds. The only democracy in the middle east, who has worked jointly on intelligence and military operations for decades.

Yet, there are many who hate and attack Israel, rather than the countries, who have truely shown to be the enemies of the US and work ambitiously against US interests.

[REAGAN RULES]

Well said gentlemen. Those folks that I have come across that despise Israel for one reason or the other, seem to be the same folks that belong to the blame America first club. Which seems to explain their negative attitude toward the good in the world. There is no fact or common sense solution that will satisfy their mind(s).



" The only way for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.":flag:

[nofear2]

I think they are just looking for an excuse to to hate Isreal! One that would take away from their real reason for their hate! It's actually quite sad, most of the Americans who hate Isreal are "Christians". I as a Christian don't understand that. Why for that matter would any Christian hate Jews? That would be like saying you hate Jesus, after all his mother was a Jew! It would seem our religions are like two brothers, both trying to get to the same place, but we have taken differant paths to get there. In the end, we are still brothers, and should treat each other as such! Just my opinion I know, but it makes sense.
I agree 100%
Word for the wise, don't simply trust someone for they are of the same faith as you are. There are good people and evil people in all faiths (yes there are plenty of good Muslims). It is not ones faith which determines whether a person is good or evil, rather it the persons soul.

[ben41281]

I agree 100%
Word for the wise, don't simply trust someone for they are of the same faith as you are. There are good people and evil people in all faiths (yes there are plenty of good Muslims). It is not ones faith which determines whether a person is good or evil, rather it the persons soul.

Very true. During my 14 years in the army, I met people from all religions, all races, and all backgrounds. The vast majority of people the world over, are pretty good people. I can say I've also run into the evil people of the world, I.E. Taliban, Al-Qiada, Humas, and the like. They are the exception not the rule! As would be the case with any group of people, if you look hard enough you can find someone who has ill intentions!

[harry tuttle]

It was 42 year ago, get over it.That wasn't so long ago. I was alive then. I suppose you were too.

We were not at war with Israel. 200 of our finest and bravest were killed or maimed in that attack, for no good reason. These men did not have to die. They were killed and wounded by a country we were not at war with, while sailing in neutral waters.

You say “Get over it”.

Let fellow servicemen who lost their brothers in arms remember the attack, as long as they have to. Let those who lost friends and family mourn their loss, as long as they need to. Let those who lost sons, brothers, and fathers demand answers, as long as they want to. Nothing will bring their loved ones back.

For all you know, I might have had a friend, a brother, a father, or a son, who was killed on that ship.

“Get over it”. Is that the best you can do?

Say it to the people who lost fathers, brothers, and sons, in that attack from a country we were not at war with. Say it to the fighting men who sustained life-long injuries from that attack. Say it to the men that are reminded of that attack, every day, to this day, when every morning they must wake to mount their wheelchair or insert their prosthetics.

Say it to them, Tough Guy, and say it to their face.

[harry tuttle]

No, it wasn't an accident.No **** it wasn't an accident. A lot of people here say it was. When are you Israel apologists gong to finally figure it out? Isn't 42 years long enough?

[harry tuttle]

And we had no business being there."we had no business being there". Spoken just like a lib.

[harry tuttle]

Those folks that I have come across that despise Israel for one reason or the other, seem to be the same folks that belong to the blame America first club.You mean like the folks who say we were attacked because "we had no business being there"?

[Bolshevik Hunter]

You may want to check your history of when America became an ally of Israel.

If there is anything that I do know, it's my Country and it's History. It's common knowledge that many American Jews had a stake in the creation of Isreal. So, with their influence, I would say we were Allies well before it's official declaration.

I guess I can infer from the statements above that you're not all that excited about your government supporting Israel...Oh well...Jokes on you :)) :)) :)) :))

No, I don't like it at all. What is important is my true feelings. No what they are? Let me tell you my friend...........I don't like the idea of giving aid to any of our allies unless it's during a time of War. That is the truth, and nothing more or less than the truth. Israel or England.

(I'd say "thank you" had you been more polite.

I didn't think that I was that bad, but If I was you? I still would have the honor to say thank you anyway. You know something else bro? My Grandfather Liberated your brothers from the Nazis' in World War 2. Know something else? His parents came to America from Germany (Bavaria actually). Something else to atleast consider? So you might understand that my feelings are not evil. My blood defended your people bro, plain and simple.

So don't make the mistake of thinking that I have something against you or your country. It's more about being against Internationalism and it's madness with no end in General. Can you understand what I am trying to say?

Yet being as I have always been an advocate of Israel rejecting US aid - in order to reject their political peace proposals, I will go ahead with the laughing.)

Laugh then, but I will laugh with you because I respect that. Basically, Your a Nationalist. Israel comes first. I understand that 100%. ~BH

[Bolshevik Hunter]

You may as well blame you government for not pulling the ship out...after all they created the cover up to begin with.

You know what nofear2? I can't say that I believe that you're wrong about that assumption. One thing I will say, is that I have noticed that you are an honest person, and you actually have made me look at this in a different perspective. I respect your loyalty to your Country, I truly do. Even if we disagree on a few things, I think that you speak what you believe to be the truth, and I fear alot of what you assume could be right. Either way, I am not your enemy. If you guys needed me, I would be there just like my Grandfather was. I believe in the good of Man. Only not Governments. I just want the USA to worry about her. I hope you understand that. ;) ~BH

[nofear2]

That wasn't so long ago. I was alive then. I suppose you were too.

We were not at war with Israel. 200 of our finest and bravest were killed or maimed in that attack, for no good reason. These men did not have to die. They were killed and wounded by a country we were not at war with, while sailing in neutral waters.

You say “Get over it”.

Let fellow servicemen who lost their brothers in arms remember the attack, as long as they have to. Let those who lost friends and family mourn their loss, as long as they need to. Let those who lost sons, brothers, and fathers demand answers, as long as they want to. Nothing will bring their loved ones back.

For all you know, I might have had a friend, a brother, a father, or a son, who was killed on that ship.

“Get over it”. Is that the best you can do?

Say it to the people who lost fathers, brothers, and sons, in that attack from a country we were not at war with. Say it to the fighting men who sustained life-long injuries from that attack. Say it to the men that are reminded of that attack, every day, to this day, when every morning they must wake to mount their wheelchair or insert their prosthetics.

Say it to them, Tough Guy, and say it to their face.

Harry your hatred towards Israel does not come from the USS Liberty incident. This is seen as in you discard the rockets being fired at Israel as being harmless your support of Palestinian terror and inability to forgo only what Jews had done to resist being molested by a spy ship. As I said before, Japan had been Americas biggest enemy during WW2 yet for some reason they are now allied with America. You didn't lose anyone due to the Liberty incident so let those who did speak out for they were already paid reparations.
All this begs to question, do you really care for the Liberty? Or is it that you have another agenda as is seen in your support for Palestinians and your view of Israeli civilians as worthless.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=50701591&postcount=109

Here is for you Harry

[nofear2]

You know what nofear2? I can't say that I believe that you're wrong about that assumption. One thing I will say, is that I have noticed that you are an honest person, and you actually have made me look at this in a different perspective. I respect your loyalty to your Country, I truly do. Even if we disagree on a few things, I think that you speak what you believe to be the truth, and I fear alot of what you assume could be right. Either way, I am not your enemy. If you guys needed me, I would be there just like my Grandfather was. I believe in the good of Man. Only not Governments. I just want the USA to worry about her. I hope you understand that. ;) ~BH

You know what BH, I would now like to apologize for laughing (figuratively) at you before and instead extend an arm. I know that you do not have an agenda behind your criticism for you are fair and balanced - as far as I can remember I have not seen you defending Palestinian terror and from there I can tell that you truly are an American nationalist. From one nationalist to another I will still salute for at the end of the day I know that Israel is very much indebted towards your country, and I'll admit this no matter how proud I really am.

[ben41281]

That wasn't so long ago. I was alive then. I suppose you were too.

NO! I was born a few years after that. When it was is not an issue. In my opinion.





We were not at war with Israel. 200 of our finest and bravest were killed or maimed in that attack, for no good reason. These men did not have to die. They were killed and wounded by a country we were not at war with, while sailing in neutral waters.Do you understand the complexity of war? The Israeli's were getting ready to fight a war on ALL sides. They needed to eliminate the enemies eyes, sometimes that means people who are not your enemy conducting intelligence operations. And you can't tell me that our intelligence forces don't have leaks! Because I've seen the results of those leaks first hand, in combat!





You say “Get over it”. Yep! Sorry, if it's harsh. But are you going to hold grudges with everyone that does us wrong? If so, do you hate Great Britain? How about Japan? Those countries attacked us, and killed far more then the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.




Let fellow servicemen who lost their brothers in arms remember the attack, as long as they have to.As someone who has lost friends in combat, I watched one of my best friends die in Iraq during the initial invasion. Do I hold a grudge against the Iraqi army? NO! Real warriors do not hold a grudge against other warriors! They like me, were following orders!



Let those who lost friends and family mourn their loss, as long as they need to. Let those who lost sons, brothers, and fathers demand answers, as long as they want to. Nothing will bring their loved ones back.I didn't say don't mourn their loss. I said, get over it. What that means, is don't let your grief consume you. That leads down a road to what? Revenge?





For all you know, I might have had a friend, a brother, a father, or a son, who was killed on that ship. See above.




“Get over it”. Is that the best you can do?Get back on your meds!




Say it to the people who lost fathers, brothers, and sons, in that attack from a country we were not at war with. Say it to the fighting men who sustained life-long injuries from that attack. Say it to the men that are reminded of that attack, every day, to this day, when every morning they must wake to mount their wheelchair or insert their prosthetics.
I've had to do just that for the widows, parents, and family of men in my unit. Men who I myself called friends, I told them the only thing to do is to get over it and go on with life. To dwell on what has been done and can't be undone, is self destructive.




Say it to them, Tough Guy, and say it to their face.See above.

[ben41281]

No **** it wasn't an accident. A lot of people here say it was. When are you Israel apologists gong to finally figure it out? Isn't 42 years long enough?

It wasn't an accident. It was a just something that happens in war!

[ben41281]

You mean like the folks who say we were attacked because "we had no business being there"?


Sounds like you blame America for a lot. And what you don't blame on America you blame on Israel. I wounder why? I bet if Israel or America were not there any more, you'd blame any surviving Americans/Jews for all your problems!

[ben41281]

You may as well blame you government for not pulling the ship out...after all they created the cover up to begin with.

I don't really blame either government totally, there is more then enough blame to go around in that incident. And it's pointless to quibble about something that happened 42 years ago. It can't be undone, to live in the past is just a waste of time.

[ben41281]

Well said gentlemen. Those folks that I have come across that despise Israel for one reason or the other, seem to be the same folks that belong to the blame America first club. Which seems to explain their negative attitude toward the good in the world. There is no fact or common sense solution that will satisfy their mind(s).



" The only way for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.":flag:


They quite often also have some form of hatred for others, blacks, middle easterners, Jews, you name it. There usually is some sort of bigotry involved in their hatred. IMHO.

[ben41281]

For the record for those of you who support Israel for all the right reasons I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Considering Israel is one of the few countries that actually sends assistance to the U.S. after hurricanes, it's the least I can do. I don't like to see the bigotry either.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

You know what BH, I would now like to apologize for laughing (figuratively) at you before and instead extend an arm. I know that you do not have an agenda behind your criticism for you are fair and balanced - as far as I can remember I have not seen you defending Palestinian terror

Thank you brother, because you're correct. No, Never. I never have defended Terrorism against any Nation, let alone our Ally which is you. I actually have been a leader in the fight against it here for years. The mods and many of my fellow posters will back me up on that. However, it's obvious that you already see it. I will say that I have came down hard on Israel in regards to The Liberty incident. I have done that, but only that. You though, being Israeli and being educated on the subject, have atleast made me look at it from both sides. It's your style bro, I respect it. I can see that you're a good Man.


and from there I can tell that you truly are an American nationalist. From one nationalist to another I will still salute for at the end of the day I know that Israel is very much indebted towards your country, and I'll admit this no matter how proud I really am.

It is Men like you who will heal the small wounds of a mistake by our own Government & yours, that will unite us against the true threat of Red China, Russia and their Nuclear development program in Iran that our media seem's to ignore and only blame on Iran.

It's funny, but not really a joke. It's the enablers that should share the blame. Only, too much profit comes before survival these days. T be blunt, Economic security, comes before National Security. We seen that crystal clear with King George Bush. That is why our borders are still left wide open for a dirty Nuke under Obama just as under Bush. It's business as usual, who cares about the population? Whichever party it happens under? Bye bye for atleast 8 years. They don't care anyway.

They are blind by International profit and the political contributions to them that cloud it. These carpetbaggers in Washington won't call out Red China or Russia. Just like they won't call them out on their obstruction of the Iraq or Afganastan Wars. Hell, Red China is controlling and giving orders to their puppet state in North Korea and their leader Kim Jong Mentally Ill. Personally bro, I think the crap is gonna hit the fan real soon or atleast within the next few years. I hope I am wrong about that.

With that being said, and I don't mean to sound all doom and gloom like the Madman Obama. But I guess it is what it is. Listen though nofear. Nothing but respect here now. I mean that bro. Your friend ~BH

[Streelsh]

What bothers me about the "other side" is the blatant dishonesty

1) They have to back to 1967 and take an accident like USS Liberty and claim it was a deliberate act. Despite overwhelming documentation that it was an accident they still persist.

There is a point that when you are given overwhelming evidence and you continue making the same false claims it's now lying

2) They have to back over 60 years and cite the attack by the Irgun of the King David Hotel. However, by pure coincidence :rolleyes: they forget to mention that it was the british military HQ at the time

3) The further mention jewish attacks against the british military, however, neglect to mention that the british put jews in detention camps at that time, were making mass arrests, and doing other evil things to the jews

4) They complain and moan about aid to Israel, like it's bankrupting the US, however, the aid to Egypt which is pretty close never seems to bother them. Also Egypt has hardly been a good ally to the US, even helping terrorists who have plotted against the US

5) They mention the fight in Deir Yassin calling it a "massacre" yet, they neglect to mention that it was indeed a long protracted fight, where the Irgun took 41 casualties.

Why the selective memory? Why do they continue the same lies when confronted with proof?

Is it anti-semitism? Just a hatred of jews?


With respect to Deir Yassein: How is it that the Israel haters fail to mention that the REASON the village was attacked in the first place that Deir Yassein was on the road between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and that Jewish convoys to Jerusalem were being fired on by Iraqi irregular troops from the village???. How is it that they ALSO fail to mention the fact ( corroborated a couple of years later by a villager in the Jordan Times ) that the Irgun used loudspeakers - giving up any chance of a surprise attack - to warn noncombatants to leave??? How is it that the same purveyors of lies fail to mention the Pogroms of 1920, 1936 and 1939 in which hundreds of JEWS were murdered and raped by the the Arab gangs under Haj Amin El Husseini - the political leader of the Mandate's ARAB community????:: How is it that the same haters of Israel selectively forget the massacre of April 13, 1948 in which 79 JEWS - mostly doctors and nurses and patients from Hadassah Hospital - in a convoy supposedly under the protection of the Red Cross were hacked to death and otherwise butchered by the ARABS ???????????

[harry tuttle]

NO! I was born a few years after that. When it was is not an issue.Youngster.

Do you understand the complexity of war? The Israeli's were getting ready to fight a war on ALL sides. They needed to eliminate the enemies eyes, sometimes that means people who are not your enemy conducting intelligence operations. And you can't tell me that our intelligence forces don't have leaks! Because I've seen the results of those leaks first hand, in combat!1. We weren’t at war with Israel.
2. The Liberty was in neutral water.

Yep! Sorry, if it's harsh. But are you going to hold grudges with everyone that does us wrong? If so, do you hate Great Britain? How about Japan? Those countries attacked us, and killed far more then the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.1. When Britain attacked, we fought back.
2. When Israel attacked, people like you said, “It’s all America’s fault. We shouldn’t have been over there.”
3. We were at war with Japan before December 7 1941 in the conflict in China and with the oil blockade.
4. Wanting to know what happened when your brothers are killed is not “holding a grudge”.

As someone who has lost friends in combat, I watched one of my best friends die in Iraq during the initial invasion. I feel for your loss, and am sorry.

Do I hold a grudge against the Iraqi army? NO! Real warriors do not hold a grudge against other warriors! They like me, were following orders!I don’t hold a grudge against the soldiers of the IDF. They were just following orders. It’s terrorists like Begin and Dayan that are worthy of contempt.

I didn't say don't mourn their loss. I said, get over it. What that means, is don't let your grief consume you. That leads down a road to what? Revenge? No revenge sought, only answers. We were told it was accident. We were told it wasn’t an accident. The official story doesn’t add up, and 42 years later a web of lies is still spun around the incident.

[harry tuttle]

Sounds like you blame America for a lot. The person I was quoting said America “had no business being there.” That’s another way of saying it’s America’s fault… for “being there”.
And what you don't blame on America you blame on Israel.I blame Israel for the attack on the Liberty, for this reason: Israel attacked the Liberty.

[harry tuttle]

They quite often also have some form of hatred for others, blacks, middle easterners, Jews, you name it. There usually is some sort of bigotry involved in their hatred. IMHO.There is usually some sort of projection manifested in statements such as yours.

[harry tuttle]

Considering Israel is one of the few countries that actually sends assistance to the U.S. after hurricanes, it's the least I can do. Israel sends assistance to the U.S.? Israel used the money we gave them. It was our money to begin with. It's like if a client takes you out to dinner, but you gave the client your money so that he can take you out to dinner.

[darknessesedge]

I have failed to follow politics/world view/whatever you want to call it for the last 37years, being only 37 you can see what I mean, and as such I cannot for the life of me understand what Pres. Obama is doing in relation to Israel? All that I understand is that Hamas has been for years launching missiles into Israel, I always caught snipits on the news about it, and they are to take it? Why does everyone hate Israel?
Hey, I don't hate anyone, I don't even hate the new "nazis"(as I see it) the Musslems. I hate the extremists, those who want to destroy us because we are who we are, but my limited understanding of the musslem religion is that its a peaceful religion so why hate them? Anyway thats another subject all together, so to get back on my point, why does everyone hate Israel and what are we doing giving money away to Hamas?

-Preston

just remember 2 things
1. Israel good.
2.hamas bad.

[The End]

If the USS Liberty was a single event, it could be believed that it was just an accident. The fact that the Lavon Affair occured about ten years earlier makes it a trend. The blantantness of the Lavon Affair is also very telling. Also just within the last five years the government of Israel had a ceremony for the perpetrators of the Lavon Affair and refered to them as heroes.

[nofear2]

Israel sends assistance to the U.S.? Israel used the money we gave them. It was our money to begin with. It's like if a client takes you out to dinner, but you gave the client your money so that he can take you out to dinner.

Jokes on you mate :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

[nofear2]

If the USS Liberty was a single event, it could be believed that it was just an accident. The fact that the Lavon Affair occured about ten years earlier makes it a trend. The blantantness of the Lavon Affair is also very telling. Also just within the last five years the government of Israel had a ceremony for the perpetrators of the Lavon Affair and refered to them as heroes.

What was wrong with the Lavon Affair?

[Streelsh]

What was wrong with the Lavon Affair?

NO FEAR: I'll tell you. Pro Israeli Egyptian Jews transmitted information to Israel about a pro Soviet client ( i.e Egypt) relating to that Soviet client's intentions to destroy Israel. Not sure if THE END is upset that the Jews aided Israel or opposed a pro-Soviet client or BOTH !

[CMike11]

The person I was quoting said America “had no business being there.” That’s another way of saying it’s America’s fault… for “being there”.
I blame Israel for the attack on the Liberty, for this reason: Israel attacked the Liberty.

Israel attacked the Liberty AND all investigations concluded that it was an accident.

American forces accidently fire against american forces, is it because it was an accident, or is it because one set of american forces are deliberately attacking another set of american forces.

It's called "friendly fire".

Accidents happen during war.

[CMike11]

Below is a list of the US accidentely atacking British forces.

I don't hear the conspiracy "nut jobs" getting their panties in a bunch about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post-1945_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_with_British_victims

Iraq War
6 April 2003, BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and members of his crew were injured when a bomb dropped from U.S planes hit their vehicle convoy, killing 15 people[1][2]
28 March 2003, The 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident, a soldier is killed by A-10 jets as well as 5 others wounded
22 March 2003, A British Tornado jet is shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile, killing both pilot and navigator [3]

[edit] War in Afghanistan
July, 2007, Guardsman Matthew Lyne-Pirkis, of the Grenadier Guards, was wounded along with 3 other allied soldiers of the Afghan National Army after being hit by gunfire from a U.S. Apache Helicopter Gunship[4]
23 August 2007, A bomb dropped by an F-15 jet killed 3 soldiers of the Royal Anglian Regiment and wounded a further 2[5]
5 December 2006, Marine Jonathan Wigley's death was caused by a round fired from a U.S. A-10 jet[6][7]

[edit] Gulf War
14 April 1994, 2 British civilians were killed in the Black Hawk shootdown incident
1991, 9 British troops were killed and a further 12 were injured after their Warrior armoured vehicles were hit by A-10s[8][9]

[CMike11]

More on the US deliberately attacking the british in Iraq :rolleyes:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-72961538.html

British deaths caused by U.S. "friendly fire" won't cause rift, British official says Article from:AP Worldstream Article date:March 31, 2003 Author: MICHAEL McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer More results for: US friendly fire incidents |

00-00-0000
Dateline: LONDON British deaths caused by American "friendly fire" in Iraq won't hurt ties between the main coalition partners, a British military official said Monday, despite criticism of U.S. troops by some British soldiers.

Five suspected incidents of "friendly fire" deaths _ involving attacks by U.S. and British troops _ have accounted for as many British fatalities as enemy action in Iraq. The rash of incidents has caused mounting concern in Britain.

"In the friction of warfare there will inevitably be the occasional occasion when this happens," British military spokesman Col. Chris Vernon told British Broadcasting Corp. "It's ...

[CMike11]

Ten Official Investigations all concluded that the Liberty was an accident.

You want to claim corruption in ten different agencies of the government.

Prove it.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html

Investigation Date Conclusion

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry June 10-18, 1967 The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.

CIA Report June 13, 1967 The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.

Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) June 9-20, 1967 Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack.

Clifford Report July 18, 1967 No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence."
Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense

McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.

Senate Armed Services Committee Feb. 1, 1968 No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.

House Appropriations Committee April-May 1968 Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.

House Armed Services Committee May 10, 1971 Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 1979 Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.

National Security Agency 1981 Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.

House Armed Services Committee June 1991 Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.

Israeli Investigations
Investigation Date Conclusion

Ram Ron Commission June 12, 1967 The attack was made "neither maliciously nor in gross negligence, but as the result of a bona fide mistake. Also notes that the Liberty made a mistake as well by carelessly approaching a war area.

Preliminary Inquiry July 1967 There was no malicious intent and no deviation from the standard of reasonable conduct that would justify a court-martial.
IDF History 1982 The attack was a result of an "innocent error."

[CMike11]

Oliver North credits Israel for helping america find the Achille Lauro terrorists.

Egypt, on the other hand, worked against the US interests, according to North, whom headed counter terrorism at that time.

[harry tuttle]

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal resulting from Operation Susannah, the 1954 Israeli covert operation where Israeli military intelligence planted bombs in American and British-owned targets in hopes that "the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, and local nationalists" would be blamed for Israel's bombings. Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon was forced to resign because of the incident, euphemistically known as the Unfortunate Affair (העסק הביש‎, HaEsek HaBish).

Israel admitted responsibility for the bombings in 2005, when Israel honored the bombers as heroes.

The Liberty involved the same Israeli strategy, which was to blame Egypt for Israel's crime in order to rouse the US against Egypt. Unfortunately for Israel, the brave American shipmen aboard the Liberty didn't let their ship go down. They were tougher than the Israelis imagined. They lived to tell the truth about what they witnessed first hand.

[The End]

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal resulting from Operation Susannah, the 1954 Israeli covert operation where Israeli military intelligence planted bombs in American and British-owned targets in hopes that "the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, and local nationalists" would be blamed for Israel's bombings. Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon was forced to resign because of the incident, euphemistically known as the Unfortunate Affair (העסק הביש‎, HaEsek HaBish).

Israel admitted responsibility for the bombings in 2005, when Israel honored the bombers as heroes.

The Liberty involved the same Israeli strategy, which was to blame Egypt for Israel's crime in order to rouse the US against Egypt. Unfortunately for Israel, the brave American shipmen aboard the Liberty didn't let their ship go down. They were tougher than the Israelis imagined. They lived to tell the truth about what they witnessed first hand.

The plot in the Lavon Affair was actually foiled when one of the bombs went off prematurely while still in possession of one of the bombers. The Egyptians interrogated him and were able to round up the rest of the conspirators.

[nofear2]

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal resulting from Operation Susannah, the 1954 Israeli covert operation where Israeli military intelligence planted bombs in American and British-owned targets in hopes that "the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, and local nationalists" would be blamed for Israel's bombings. Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon was forced to resign because of the incident, euphemistically known as the Unfortunate Affair (העסק הביש‎, HaEsek HaBish).

Israel admitted responsibility for the bombings in 2005, when Israel honored the bombers as heroes.

The Liberty involved the same Israeli strategy, which was to blame Egypt for Israel's crime in order to rouse the US against Egypt. Unfortunately for Israel, the brave American shipmen aboard the Liberty didn't let their ship go down. They were tougher than the Israelis imagined. They lived to tell the truth about what they witnessed first hand.
Ah yes one who supports the idea of toying with Jewish lives. You don't care all that much about the Liberty and the idea which you came up with is totally debunked in the fact that Israel had warned the state department before attacking. Too bad your government which was to be responsible for the lives of those sailors decided to ignore Israels warning. Remember, they covered up the attack, not us.

It as all to apparent that you care nothing for your country and nothing for the Arabs. All you do is care to see Jews suffer.

[nofear2]

The plot in the Lavon Affair was actually foiled when one of the bombs went off prematurely while still in possession of one of the bombers. The Egyptians interrogated him and were able to round up the rest of the conspirators.

Or perhaps there was a mole in the ranks. Try doing a little research.

[nofear2]

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal resulting from Operation Susannah, the 1954 Israeli covert operation where Israeli military intelligence planted bombs in American and British-owned targets in hopes that "the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, and local nationalists" would be blamed for Israel's bombings. Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon was forced to resign because of the incident, euphemistically known as the Unfortunate Affair (העסק הביש‎, HaEsek HaBish).


This is no different then the CIA allying itself and protecting the leader of Black September. Ah yes but there is nothing wrong with this, Black September targeted Jews and Jews are legitimate target right Harry?

[CMike11]

The US is guilty of war crimes for deliberately attacking british soldiers in the Iraq & Afghanistan wars.

There should be a UN war crimes trial against the US.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post-1945_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_with_British_victims

Iraq War
6 April 2003, BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and members of his crew were injured when a bomb dropped from U.S planes hit their vehicle convoy, killing 15 people[1][2]
28 March 2003, The 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident, a soldier is killed by A-10 jets as well as 5 others wounded
22 March 2003, A British Tornado jet is shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile, killing both pilot and navigator [3]

[edit] War in Afghanistan
July, 2007, Guardsman Matthew Lyne-Pirkis, of the Grenadier Guards, was wounded along with 3 other allied soldiers of the Afghan National Army after being hit by gunfire from a U.S. Apache Helicopter Gunship[4]
23 August 2007, A bomb dropped by an F-15 jet killed 3 soldiers of the Royal Anglian Regiment and wounded a further 2[5]
5 December 2006, Marine Jonathan Wigley's death was caused by a round fired from a U.S. A-10 jet[6][7]

[edit] Gulf War
14 April 1994, 2 British civilians were killed in the Black Hawk shootdown incident
1991, 9 British troops were killed and a further 12 were injured after their Warrior armoured vehicles were hit by A-10s[8][9]

[CMike11]

Let's see the USS Liberty accident...what does the proof support?

On one hand proving that it was an accident

1) Ten official US investigations from the exhaustive US Naval Inquiry report, to the CIA, joint chiefs, house armed servies, house intelligence committee, etc.

ALL concluding that it wasn't intentional

2) The declassified transcripts of the Israeli pilots caught by a US spy plane, confirming it was an accident.

On the other hand proving that it was deliberate

1) Zero, Nada, Nothing, Conspiracy theories. Zippo.

[CMike11]

Once again, the evidence that it was an accident is overwhelming.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html

Investigation Date Conclusion

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry June 10-18, 1967 The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.

CIA Report June 13, 1967 The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.

Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) June 9-20, 1967 Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack.

Clifford Report July 18, 1967 No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence."
Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense

McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.

Senate Armed Services Committee Feb. 1, 1968 No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.

House Appropriations Committee April-May 1968 Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.

House Armed Services Committee May 10, 1971 Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 1979 Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.

National Security Agency 1981 Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.

House Armed Services Committee June 1991 Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.
Israeli Investigations
Investigation Date Conclusion

Ram Ron Commission June 12, 1967 The attack was made "neither maliciously nor in gross negligence, but as the result of a bona fide mistake. Also notes that the Liberty made a mistake as well by carelessly approaching a war area.

Preliminary Inquiry July 1967 There was no malicious intent and no deviation from the standard of reasonable conduct that would justify a court-martial.
IDF History 1982 The attack was a result of an "innocent error."

[Bolshevik Hunter]

"We saw no need to inform Israel or any other party to the hostilities of the Liberty's location since the ship was on a peaceful mission and was in international waters. I have seen a report alleging that the Israeli Government has asked us about the presence of the ship prior to the attack, but that report is not true." -Lyndon B. Johnson, then-President of the United States


"I do not know to this day at what level the attack on the Liberty was authorized and I think it is unlikely that the full truth will ever come out. Having been for so long a staunch supporter of Israel, I was particularly troubled by this incident; I could not bring myself to believe that such an action could have been authorized by Levi Eshkol. Yet somewhere inside the Israeli government, somewhere along the chain of command, something had gone terribly wrong--and then had been covered up. I hever felt the Israelis made adequate restitution or explanation for their actions . . ." - Clark M. Clifford, then-Presidential Advisor and Chairman of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, Counsel to the President


"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable. El Quseir has one-fourth the displacement of the Liberty, roughly half the beam, is 180 feet shorter, and is very differently configured. The Liberty's unusual antenna array and hull markings should have been visible to low-flying aircraft and torpedo boats. In the heat of battle the Liberty was able to identify one of the attacking torpedo boats as Israeli and to ascertain its hull number. In the same circumstances, trained Israeli naval personnel should have been able easily to see and identify the larger hull markings on the Liberty." -Clifford, in a memorandum to the President, 18 July 1967


. . . an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life." -Then Secretary of State Dean Rusk in a 10 June 1967 diplomatic note to the Israeli Ambassador.[/U]

"But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or soem trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous." -Rusk, As I Saw It, W.W.Norton, 1990. p 388

I don't know about you my friends, but I find it very strange that even after proof of opinions on this issue have been put forth for anyone with half a brain to see, it still doesn't register. It reminds me of the mental illness of Liberalism. Hell, Even an Israeli himself here (nofear) showed honor and admitted the attack was on purpose. He understands that his Government is not perfect, Just like ours is not.

You see, that's the difference between an Israeli, and the Israeli Governmet. Kind of like the difference between an American, and the American Government. I guess some androids just can't figure that one out? Course, we got people who can think for themselves, and then we got sheople minded robots. Or you could word it another way Like this. You got Patriots who stand for the truth, and you got cowards who defend liars inside whatever Government of their choosing at the time. Then they point fingers and make accusations against their own Country. I think we all can recognize a traitor when we all see one. Pretty much sums it up. ;)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n229/kampkirk88/smiley_hammerbash.gif ~BH

U.S.S Liberty Memorial Page
http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

[Streelsh]

This is no different then the CIA allying itself and protecting the leader of Black September. Ah yes but there is nothing wrong with this, Black September targeted Jews and Jews are legitimate target right Harry?

Nor is it different from the State Department 's coverup of the fact that Yassir Arafat ordered the brutal murder of US Ambassador to Sudan, Cleo A. Noel Jr, and his DCM, George Curtis Moore for THIRTY YEARS !!!!

[Streelsh]

[QUOTE=Bolshevik Hunter;51076971]


[B]. . . an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life." -Then Secretary of State Dean Rusk in a 10 June 1967 diplomatic note to the Israeli Ambassador.[/U]

"But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or soem trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous." -Rusk, As I Saw It, W.W.Norton, 1990. p 388

Dean Rusk was hardly an unbiased source. Only a few weeks earlier he welched on an agreement between the US and Israel that, in the event that Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, the US would sent a group of warships to protest that violation of international law. Well, in May 1967, Nasser DID close the Straits of Tiran but the United States did NOT even verbally protest it !!!!!!

[nofear2]

Nor is it different from the State Department 's coverup of the fact that Yassir Arafat ordered the brutal murder of US Ambassador to Sudan, Cleo A. Noel Jr, and his DCM, George Curtis Moore for THIRTY YEARS !!!!

Yet this is not the time to begin counting the wrongs our governments have done. The issue at hand is whether Israel is the provoked or the unprovoked.

[The End]

The US is guilty of war crimes for deliberately attacking british soldiers in the Iraq & Afghanistan wars.

There should be a UN war crimes trial against the US.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post-1945_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_with_British_victims

Iraq War
6 April 2003, BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and members of his crew were injured when a bomb dropped from U.S planes hit their vehicle convoy, killing 15 people[1][2]
28 March 2003, The 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident, a soldier is killed by A-10 jets as well as 5 others wounded
22 March 2003, A British Tornado jet is shot down by a U.S. Patriot missile, killing both pilot and navigator [3]

[edit] War in Afghanistan
July, 2007, Guardsman Matthew Lyne-Pirkis, of the Grenadier Guards, was wounded along with 3 other allied soldiers of the Afghan National Army after being hit by gunfire from a U.S. Apache Helicopter Gunship[4]
23 August 2007, A bomb dropped by an F-15 jet killed 3 soldiers of the Royal Anglian Regiment and wounded a further 2[5]
5 December 2006, Marine Jonathan Wigley's death was caused by a round fired from a U.S. A-10 jet[6][7]

[edit] Gulf War
14 April 1994, 2 British civilians were killed in the Black Hawk shootdown incident
1991, 9 British troops were killed and a further 12 were injured after their Warrior armoured vehicles were hit by A-10s[8][9]

It's one thing to have friendly fire on the first pass over. It's quite another to have several closeup flybys of a vessel and then to return a few hours later and attack it while claiming mistaken identity in the aftermath. Like I said before if this had just been one incident you might be able to claim it was an accident, but after the Lavon Affair and the interesting details surrounding this incident there is no way that you can claim this was an accident with a straight face.

[CMike11]

It's one thing to have friendly fire on the first pass over. It's quite another to have several closeup flybys of a vessel and then to return a few hours later and attack it while claiming mistaken identity in the aftermath. Like I said before if this had just been one incident you might be able to claim it was an accident, but after the Lavon Affair and the interesting details surrounding this incident there is no way that you can claim this was an accident with a straight face.

Nope, the US in its dastardly deeds deliberately attacked the British soldiers not once but multiple times.

A war crimes trial should be held immediately and people punished.

The US committed war crimes. Mistakes in battle don't happen.

BTW as far as the USS Liberty what are you talking about flying closeups and returning? That's not in the events that happened.

In any case the USS should be condemened and no ally should deal with them again for this criminal act of attacking the british soldiers.

Where is the punishment for the US? Where? Where? Where?

[CMike11]

[QUOTE=Bolshevik Hunter;51076971]


[B]. . . an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life." -Then Secretary of State Dean Rusk in a 10 June 1967 diplomatic note to the Israeli Ambassador.[/U]

"But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or soem trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous." -Rusk, As I Saw It, W.W.Norton, 1990. p 388

Dean Rusk was hardly an unbiased source. Only a few weeks earlier he welched on an agreement between the US and Israel that, in the event that Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, the US would sent a group of warships to protest that violation of international law. Well, in May 1967, Nasser DID close the Straits of Tiran but the United States did NOT even verbally protest it !!!!!!


Prove that I said.

I really don't believe what is in these biased books, and how easily quotes can be taken out of context

In any case that is an opinon. I have given you the conclusion of all the US investigations, under oath, and public.

The official Rusk report, concluded that it was an accident.

Do you have proof that he said it from an unbiased source?

[CMike11]

The evidence is overwhelming that it was an accident.



http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html

Investigation Date Conclusion

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry June 10-18, 1967 The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship.

CIA Report June 13, 1967 The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake.

Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) June 9-20, 1967 Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack.

Clifford Report July 18, 1967 No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence."
Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense

McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional.

Senate Armed Services Committee Feb. 1, 1968 No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.

House Appropriations Committee April-May 1968 Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.

House Armed Services Committee May 10, 1971 Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 1979 Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.

National Security Agency 1981 Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors.

House Armed Services Committee June 1991 Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.
Israeli Investigations
Investigation Date Conclusion

Ram Ron Commission June 12, 1967 The attack was made "neither maliciously nor in gross negligence, but as the result of a bona fide mistake. Also notes that the Liberty made a mistake as well by carelessly approaching a war area.

Preliminary Inquiry July 1967 There was no malicious intent and no deviation from the standard of reasonable conduct that would justify a court-martial.
IDF History 1982 The attack was a result of an "innocent error."

[CMike11]

Don't forget that the US deliberately and maliciously attacked and shot down an Iranian plan filled with passengers.

Where are the trials for crimes against humanity??:))

[Bolshevik Hunter]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n229/kampkirk88/thScarface1.jpg
"I Kill A Communist For Fun Mang, But For Uh Green Card? I Gonna Carve Him Up Real Good!"



~BH

[Bolshevik Hunter]

I think I heard someone make a comment about the United States of America, in regards to The Iran Air Flight 655 that was shot down by The U.S on July 1988? I think this person, a citizen of the U.S, accused The U.S of some kind of War crime? Again, these types are traitors and should be investigated by The State Department, and Homeland Security.

Anyways, This incident, that I don't agree with by the way because it involved Iranian civillians and not Iranian military, is another unfortunate incident. Let's take a look at the facts behind it, shall we?

In Beirut, Lebanon on April 18, 1983, Over 60 people, mostly embassy staff members and U.S. Marines and Sailors, were murdered by A pro-Iranian group calling itself the Islamic Jihad, who had links to Iranian funded Hezbollah.

Then, Later that year, another major incident occured on October 23, 1983, during the Lebanese Civil War. Two truck bombs struck separate buildings in Beirut that housed United States and French military forces—members of the Multinational Force in Lebanon—killing almost 300 servicemen, most of whom were U.S. Marines.

Again, maybe some traitors here didn't study their history befor they pointed the finger at their own Nation, The United States of America. Apparently, some of these same traitors seem to think that their own Country, America, should be charged with War crimes? Of course anyother time they are bowing down to their masters in D.C as long as it serves their agenda.

But again, The United States of America, though no comment has ever been made on the reason why this happened, had just 4 years earlier suffered the two attacks against it that I listed above where 360 folks, mostly American Marines, were killed. Apparently the enemies within missed that too.

Somehow, whether one agree's or disagree's with the U.S response, these same traitors seem to assume that it's ok to compare such a scenario with the un-Provoked attack on The U.S.S Liberty? Luckily, Anyone with a brain can understand that the Issue of the Liberty which was in the 60's, was very different than the two incidents in 1983 that occured prior to the shooting down of Iranian Flight 655 in 1988.

To make it clear, Cowardly terrorist Iranian Operatives attacked our Marines, just as well as others, un-provoked in 1983 two different times.

Look at it like this? A U.S Intelligence ship, The U.S.S Liberty, was in international Waters and it was attacked by Israel. It was a non-Combat Intelligence ship that the Israelis knew about. Israels right to attack it is another debate. What our own Government did is also another debate. However, This was almost two decades before and has nothing to do with what occured both times in 1983 and in regards to the U.S response in 1988.

But to put commonsense aside, Some traitors who hate The United States of America seem to suggest that she should be tried for War Crimes. I think the accusations, and the accusers, speak for themselves. It's very clear that we have many enemies within The United States of America.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n229/kampkirk88/smiley_gunner.gif ~BH

[CMike11]

See you in TTTM

[CMike11]

It's one thing to have friendly fire on the first pass over. It's quite another to have several closeup flybys of a vessel and then to return a few hours later and attack it while claiming mistaken identity in the aftermath. Like I said before if this had just been one incident you might be able to claim it was an accident, but after the Lavon Affair and the interesting details surrounding this incident there is no way that you can claim this was an accident with a straight face.

I think the opposite is true. In the case of the US attack on the British, the British and the US are coordinated, in their efforts.

In the case of Israel. The Liberty was off the coast of a hostile country, Egypt. The ship wasn't where it was supposed to be, and Israel had no way of knowing that an america spy ship would be so close to the Egyptian coast, whom they were in a hostile war with.

[CMike11]

It's called sarcasm.

Why would Israel attack the one friend it had in the world?

[CMike11]

I did. I was using a technique that Rush Limbaugh uses, which is to illustrate absurdity by being absurd.

Obviously the US didn't intentionally attack british troops nor did the US intentionally shoot down an Iranian civilian airliner.

The US would not deliberately attack allies, nor civilians.

I am pointing out that it is as absurd that Israel would intentionally attack a US ship.

Mistakes happen. In war the wrong people get attacked sometimes. That's just the way it is.

Some people are intent in making it more than that.

[nofear2]

Why would Israel attack the one friend it had in the world?

During 67 America was NO friend of Israel. At the time when Israel needed them most when being surrounded by Soviet armed and aided country America took a "neutral" stance in the conflict.

[Hiram-Abiff]

"Why are we giving money to Hamas?"

I wrote and ask a U.S. Senator (Republican) and ask why is the U.S. giving 900,000,000 dollars to Hamas and the Palistians, especailly when our Social Securty is in need of the money. I also ask if our social security should come first over a terrorist organization like Hamas and the response was :

"Dear Friend:

Thank you for contacting me regarding financial aid to other nations. I welcome your thoughts and comments on this issue.

The arguments for encouraging democracy, providing humanitarian assistance, and protecting American strategic interests abroad are compelling, but they must be balanced against domestic priorities and the need to control government spending.

Please be assured that I apply rigorous standards to every area of discretionary spending. My support for any foreign aid component will continue to be predicated on its relevance to national security and other important U.S. interests.

I appreciate hearing from you and hope you will not hesitate to keep in touch on any issue of concern to you."

I guess the Republicans put the welfare of terrorist over American Citizens.

Chow!

[Streelsh]

"Why are we giving money to Hamas?"

I wrote and ask a U.S. Senator (Republican) and ask why is the U.S. giving 900,000,000 dollars to Hamas and the Palistians, especailly when our Social Securty is in need of the money. I also ask if our social security should come first over a terrorist organization like Hamas and the response was :

"Dear Friend:

Thank you for contacting me regarding financial aid to other nations. I welcome your thoughts and comments on this issue.

The arguments for encouraging democracy, providing humanitarian assistance, and protecting American strategic interests abroad are compelling, but they must be balanced against domestic priorities and the need to control government spending.

Please be assured that I apply rigorous standards to every area of discretionary spending. My support for any foreign aid component will continue to be predicated on its relevance to national security and other important U.S. interests.

I appreciate hearing from you and hope you will not hesitate to keep in touch on any issue of concern to you."

I guess the Republicans put the welfare of terrorist over American Citizens.

Chow!


WHICH Senator was that ?? Because MOST Republicans are more pro-Israel than MOST Democratic ones! ( I can think of only ONE possibility- Lugar of Indiana

[Hiram-Abiff]

A senator from Texas.

[Streelsh]

A senator from Texas.

Male or Female ???

[Hiram-Abiff]

Female, my friend and one who cares more about supporting terrorists like Hamas. It is a shame when a government wants to do away with Social Security and at the same time support terrorists groups with money that should be going to Americans.

[Streelsh]

Female, my friend and one who cares more about supporting terrorists like Hamas. It is a shame when a government wants to do away with Social Security and at the same time support terrorists groups with money that should be going to Americans.

I think that our government should NOT be supporting terrorists even if Social Security was not threaten but ESPECIALLY because Social Security and other programs are and ESPECIALLY when we are bankrupting the future generations to subsidize those who would destroy us.

Either this Senator or the staff member is an idiot or maybe BOTH!

[Hiram-Abiff]

Greetings,

I totally agree with you but I think the staff member who wrote the letter was only supporting the senator's political views and the views of 99.9% of the other senators.

Chow!

[Jacob_Rising]

"Why are we giving money to Hamas?"

I wrote and ask a U.S. Senator (Republican) and ask why is the U.S. giving 900,000,000 dollars to Hamas and the Palistians, especailly when our Social Securty is in need of the money. I also ask if our social security should come first over a terrorist organization like Hamas and the response was :

"Dear Friend:

Thank you for contacting me regarding financial aid to other nations. I welcome your thoughts and comments on this issue.

The arguments for encouraging democracy, providing humanitarian assistance, and protecting American strategic interests abroad are compelling, but they must be balanced against domestic priorities and the need to control government spending.

Please be assured that I apply rigorous standards to every area of discretionary spending. My support for any foreign aid component will continue to be predicated on its relevance to national security and other important U.S. interests.

I appreciate hearing from you and hope you will not hesitate to keep in touch on any issue of concern to you."

I guess the Republicans put the welfare of terrorist over American Citizens.

Chow!To fulfill Prophecy in My opinion.

We are not giving money to Palistinians to rebuild.

We are not giving Hamas money for Humanitarian aid, We are not giving money for housing and humanitarian aid.

We are giving Money to Palistinians as an act of war against Israel.
We all know where the money will go,it's been proven many times.

All nations have to come up against Israel and officially as of this year, all nations are officially against Israel.

There is only one simple problem that Americans cannot understand.

The fact that these people don't want freedom, they don't want democracy, they will not tolerate a single Jew Living amongst them.

Americans are in some kind of dream state with the false assumption that everyone wants liberty and freedom, and democracy.

This is simply not the case, and the truth is never told in the media.

The truth is very simple and it's not exclusive to Palistine in any way.

The Truth is the fact that all civilized free democracies have come to the crossroads and people are not aware of it, or they refuse to admit it. People hear about Genocide in Dafar, Do they also tell you it's because of Islamic Extreemists? or the Chechen rebels being Islamic Extreemists? Or the other Islamic war fronts going on?

We Just gave 900,000 dollars to a known Terrorist organization in the hopes that one day they can become the most racist independant terroist state in the world.

Not only did we give them a Billion bucks, but other Billions were also donated by other countries.

Some of this Billion bucks will help elementry school where they teach 6 year old Children to pray a Haddith of Mohamed everyday that basically says,'' The Resurection will not come until the Muslim kills all the Jews''

Our money will go to arm the enemies of Israel and to train future Islamic Terrorists.

For some idiotic reason, Many Americans think Palistine deserves it's own Therocracy where no person is safe to tread but a Muslim and not even all Muslims are safe.

Gaza is ruled by Hamas and voted in by the people{People voting for terrorist who will rule by Therocracy.

Palistine and the west bank has an accepted supposed democrat who wants liberty, and freedom, and democracy.

The President of Palistine ,'' Abbas'' or whatever is setup as a fake front to legitimize themselves to the nations.

They know and have realized that Palistine can become an indepenant racist Terrorist state if they can prop up a false democracy which would represent liberty and freedom for the people.

What nobody will admit is the fact that the people who live there just plain out don't want liberty and freedom or a democracy.

If Palistine becomes an independant state, it will not be a democratic one, we are helping to build a therocracy helping enemies of Israel and enemies of Democracy.

Most of this money will end up in Iran's hands buying arms that they purchase from Russia, and used against Israel beside the millions that will be pocketed.

Our worst enemy is Russia, no ifs ands or butts.