Dead Faith

[trettep]

James says that Faith can be dead faith:

Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

Paul says:

That Faith is required even to access Grace:

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

So it is in error to conclude that dead Faith cannot access Grace?

Paul

[Mikko]

James says that Faith can be dead faith:

Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

Paul says:

That Faith is required even to access Grace:

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

So it is in error to conclude that dead Faith cannot access Grace?

Paul
I think James was saying that if there were no actions to indicate one's faith, that one did not, in fact, have faith. It would follow from that that "dead faith" is, in actuality, the lack of faith. That being said, any true faith, by Paul's definition, would gain access to grace.:)

[TaylorW65]

I translate Faith into the word trust. There are days when my trust is weak and even nonexistent. It is on days like that I feel the Grace of God even more.

I feel faith benefits us and I don't think a lack of faith ties God's hands in anyway. I don't see faith as a quantitative substance and that God is waiting for us to get our gas tanks full of faith before he will respond to us.

[cbut1]

I think James was saying that if there were no actions to indicate one's faith, that one did not, in fact, have faith. It would follow from that that "dead faith" is, in actuality, the lack of faith. That being said, any true faith, by Paul's definition, would gain access to grace.:)

:clap:

[CID_0687]

I think James was saying that if there were no actions to indicate one's faith, that one did not, in fact, have faith. It would follow from that that "dead faith" is, in actuality, the lack of faith. That being said, any true faith, by Paul's definition, would gain access to grace.:)
There it is. :clap:

Lock the thread. :lol:

[trettep]

What makes this so important is that Grace is what saves us. But if we have dead Faith then we don't have access to the Grace which saves us. That should be alarming to all of us that claim to follow Christ.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

I think James was saying that if there were no actions to indicate one's faith, that one did not, in fact, have faith. It would follow from that that "dead faith" is, in actuality, the lack of faith. That being said, any true faith, by Paul's definition, would gain access to grace.:)

So if a person doesn't have faith does that mean God cannot or will not respond to that person?

[Mikko]

So if a person doesn't have faith does that mean God cannot or will not respond to that person?
That would depend on whether or not you think grace has to be earned, wouldn't it?:)

[trettep]

I translate Faith into the word trust. There are days when my trust is weak and even nonexistent. It is on days like that I feel the Grace of God even more.

I feel faith benefits us and I don't think a lack of faith ties God's hands in anyway. I don't see faith as a quantitative substance and that God is waiting for us to get our gas tanks full of faith before he will respond to us.

If you have Faith with works then it came from God to begin with. It didn't come from ourselves. But are these works the same as the works that Pauls says that don't save us? Obviously not. The works that must accompany our Faith in order to access the Grace must be the works of its copyright owner (Jesus Christ). See that is what is saving us. It is JESUS CHRIST putting down sin in our OWN flesh by means of the Holy Spirit.

So the works that save us are His Works and not ours.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

What makes this so important is that Grace is what saves us. But if we have dead Faith then we don't have access to the Grace which saves us. That should be alarming to all of us that claim to follow Christ.

Paul

You make it sound as if faith is some type of currency with which we exchange for God's favor. If you don't have the money you can't pay the toll. God is not a vending machine.

It all sounds too legalistic. Where is the room for relationship if God can be bought with faith?

[trettep]

So if a person doesn't have faith does that mean God cannot or will not respond to that person?

God responds to all of His creation. It depends on what you consider response. The ungodly will receive His wrath and the godly His blessings. God has us all under chastisement right now. Our daily toil is a chastisement means to curtail that which we are being chastized for.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

That would depend on whether or not you think grace has to be earned, wouldn't it?:)

Grace is unearned favor.

[Mikko]

If you have Faith with works then it came from God to begin with. It didn't come from ourselves. But are these works the same as the works that Pauls says that don't save us? Obviously not. The works that must accompany our Faith in order to access the Grace must be the works of its copyright owner (Jesus Christ). See that is what is saving us. It is JESUS CHRIST putting down sin in our OWN flesh by means of the Holy Spirit.

So the works that save us are His Works and not ours.

Paul

If grace is earned by works, regardless of whose works they are, then it is, by definition, not grace. Grace, by definition, is not earned.:)

[trettep]

You make it sound as if faith is some type of currency with which we exchange for God's favor. If you don't have the money you can't pay the toll. God is not a vending machine.

It all sounds too legalistic. Where is the room for relationship if God can be bought with faith?

You mean the Apostle Paul makes it sound that way? He is the one that informs us that Faith is the ACCESS to Grace. Those are not my words.

Surely, your not going to contend that dead faith can access Saving Grace are you?

Paul

[Mikko]

Grace is unearned favor.
That's my understanding. Of course, if faith is required, then it's not really unearned, is it?:)

[TaylorW65]

God responds to all of His creation. It depends on what you consider response. The ungodly will receive His wrath and the godly His blessings. God has us all under chastisement right now. Our daily toil is a chastisement means to curtail that which we are being chastized for.

Paul

Why do you believe God has us all under chastisement?

[CID_0687]

What makes this so important is that Grace is what saves us. But if we have dead Faith then we don't have access to the Grace which saves us. That should be alarming to all of us that claim to follow Christ.

Paul
Why should this be alarming?

When one receives Christ in their life it is an act of faith...the initial work is saying that you will follow Christ, and do your best to live a life pleasing to him...Therefore, the faith is not dead, and one has accessed the Grace that was freely given to them.

[trettep]

If grace is earned by works, regardless of whose works they are, then it is, by definition, not grace. Grace, by definition, is not earned.:)

You said regardless of whose works they are. Obviously, that can't be the case. So the works must of a particular party since Paul tells us that our works can't save us and yet tells us that works are indeed requires. So to whom do these other works come from that are required? - Christ Jesus.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

That's my understanding. Of course, if faith is required, then it's not really unearned, is it?:)

Exactly, which is why I believe that faith is something we need to sustain us on our journey not a currency that God needs from us before he acts on our behalf.

[trettep]

Why do you believe God has us all under chastisement?

Sure He does. If we are all of the body of Adam then we receive the Judgement that was applied to Adam and thus this has been the case as evidence by the fact that we all toil and die. God had a remedial purpose in that. That is by its characteristic a chastisement and theirfore all of us in the Body of Adam have received that chastisement.

Paul

[trettep]

Exactly, which is why I believe that faith is something we need to sustain us on our journey not a currency that God needs from us before he acts on our behalf.

So taylorW64, then do you agree that Dead Faith can access Grace?

Paul

[Mikko]

Exactly, which is why I believe that faith is something we need to sustain us on our journey not a currency that God needs from us before he acts on our behalf.
That's an interesting perspective.:)

[Mikko]

So taylorW64, then do you agree that Dead Faith can access Grace?

PaulI thought we had established that "dead faith" is the lack of faith.:)

[trettep]

I thought we had established that "dead faith" is the lack of faith.:)

Dead Faith - is a lack of saving Faith (Faith with Good works).

Paul

[TaylorW65]

You said regardless of whose works they are. Obviously, that can't be the case. So the works must of a particular party since Paul tells us that our works can't save us and yet tells us that works are indeed requires. So to whom do these other works come from that are required? - Christ Jesus.

Paul

Our works cannot save us. I also think we need to define what we mean by salvation. Is salvation just our ticket to heaven? I think it is much more than that. Salvation to me is more about this life than the afterlife. To me salvation is a process by which all of those sins within me that block the character of God from being made manifest through me are healed.

That does require my participation, or works, as I would call them. Ourselves and Jesus are in a relationship where he is turning us into Christ like people. I cannot just sit back and say okay Jesus you do it all. No I must participate. I must work and weed my own garden but it is Jesus who gets the credit for the growing.

[CID_0687]

I thought we had established that "dead faith" is the lack of faith.:)
WE have.

The simplest definition of the word "Dead" is, does not exist....So dead faith would be nonexistent faith...

[CID_0687]

Dead Faith - is a lack of saving Faith (Faith with Good works).

Paul
And if it's the lack of saving faith then there is no faith at all....With no faith there can be no works

[TaylorW65]

So taylorW64, then do you agree that Dead Faith can access Grace?

Paul

I think when our faith is dead God's grace is active. God is a lover longing for us and constantly working behind the scenes of our lives waiting ever so patiently for us to turn to him.

If we lack faith, I believe God completely understands why we lack faith and his response to us is with understanding, compassion and Love.

[trettep]

Our works cannot save us. I also think we need to define what we mean by salvation. Is salvation just our ticket to heaven? I think it is much more than that. Salvation to me is more about this life than the afterlife. To me salvation is a process by which all of those sins within me that block the character of God from being made manifest through me are healed.

That does require my participation, or works, as I would call them. Ourselves and Jesus are in a relationship where he is turning us into Christ like people. I cannot just sit back and say okay Jesus you do it all. No I must participate. I must work and weed my own garden but it is Jesus who gets the credit for the growing.

Salvation is the saving from your sins which leads you to death.

I asked you a question in a previous post that hopefully you will answer:

Do you believe that dead Faith can access Grace?

Paul

[trettep]

And if it's the lack of saving faith then there is no faith at all....With no faith there can be no works

Then if that is the case there can also be no Grace. Since Faith is the access to Grace. And if we don't have access to Grace then we have no access to Salvation.

;-)

Paul

[CID_0687]

Then if that is the case there can also be no Grace. Since Faith is the access to Grace. And if we don't have access to Grace then we have no access to Salvation.

;-)

Paul

Let's look at it like this......

We all have heard the expression, "You're dead to me."

This does not, in most cases, mean that the person is literally dead...it means that, for one reason or another, the proclaimer wants nothing to do with the other anymore.

We're all given a measure of faith, but many choose not to exercise this faith for whatever reason....yet, it still lies dormant, or dead inside of us...and just like the relationship with the person that was written off, our faith can be resurrected....

So, when ones faith is dead then grace cannot be accessed...as I said before, but once said person's faith is resurrected then they can access grace.

[TaylorW65]

Salvation is the saving from your sins which leads you to death.

I asked you a question in a previous post that hopefully you will answer:

Do you believe that dead Faith can access Grace?

Paul

I answered your question in post #28. I will say more here. I don't see faith as a currency by which we access Grace. Faith is not a coin I put in a vending machine to buy some of God's Grace.

So to me the question isn't even the right question because the analogy is wrong.

I believe because God loves each and everyone of us we are always covered by God's Grace. My faith sustains me in my relationship with God. But if my faith is dead or non existent God is still actively participating in my life and the lives of all people. God is moved by his own compassion and love and wisdom and will do what is right in the person's life according to those characteristics.

No matter the level of my faith God is always there with me and shall never forsake me.

[trettep]

I think when our faith is dead God's grace is active. God is a lover longing for us and constantly working behind the scenes of our lives waiting ever so patiently for us to turn to him.

If we lack faith, I believe God completely understands why we lack faith and his response to us is with understanding, compassion and Love.

So your answer is then that dead faith can access Grace. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Paul

[trettep]

Let's look at it like this......

We all have heard the expression, "You're dead to me."

This does not, in most cases, mean that the person is literally dead...it means that, for one reason or another, the proclaimer wants nothing to do with the other anymore.

We're all given a measure of faith, but many choose not to exercise this faith for whatever reason....yet, it still lies dormant, or dead inside of us...and just like the relationship with the person that was written off, our faith can be resurrected....

So, when ones faith is dead then grace cannot be accessed...as I said before, but once said person's faith is resurrected then they can access grace.

So your of the belief that someone is constanting moving in and out of Grace as their Faith becomes dormant and non dormant?

Paul

[TaylorW65]

So your answer is then that dead faith can access Grace. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Paul

Again, you seem to keep using the faith as a currency metaphor and I wouldn't even put it in those terms.

But for the sake of keeping my answer clear, then yes, dead faith can access God's grace. :rolleyes:

[CID_0687]

So your of the belief that someone is constanting moving in and out of Grace as their Faith becomes dormant and non dormant?

Paul

No.

[trettep]

Again, you seem to keep using the faith as a currency metaphor and I wouldn't even put it in those terms.

But for the sake of keeping my answer clear, then yes, dead faith can access God's grace. :rolleyes:

No Taylor, I'm using Faith as ACCESS to Grace BECAUSE my beloved Apostle Paul did:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I surely don't believe your going to make the same allegation of Paul that he is using Faith as a currency metaphor are you?

Have you consider maybe Taylor that your just wrong?

Paul

[trettep]

No.

Ok, I get it - your of the belief that someone can have dead Faith and still have Grace.

Paul

[CID_0687]

Ok, I get it - your of the belief that someone can have dead Faith and still have Grace.

Paul
Grace is always there as is faith. It's up to the individual what they will do with it.

[TaylorW65]

No Taylor, I'm using Faith as ACCESS to Grace BECAUSE my beloved Apostle Paul did:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I surely don't believe your going to make the same allegation of Paul that he is using Faith as a currency metaphor are you?

Have you consider maybe Taylor that your just wrong?

Paul

In some of these issues of language semantics i don't see it as being either right or wrong just different ways of seeing the issue.

I see faith in context of a relationship and I try not to be legalistic about things. That is the problem when we take one line of scripture and then create a doctrine around it.

Yes we have access to God through our faith. But that doesn't necessarily conclude that it means the opposite is true. Just because we may lack faith it doesn't mean God doesn't have access to us and is not a participating presence in our lives.

Many times I see Christians wanting to make scripture into some type of formula. I don't think life is so formulaic and I don't see my relationship with God as being a set of rigid doctrines.

[trettep]

Grace is always there as is faith. It's up to the individual what they will do with it.

Does it matter what they do with it? If so, why?

Paul

[trettep]

In some of these issues of language semantics i don't see it as being either right or wrong just different ways of seeing the issue.

I see faith in context of a relationship and I try not to be legalistic about things. That is the problem when we take one line of scripture and then create a doctrine around it.

Yes we have access to God through our faith. But that doesn't necessarily conclude that it means the opposite is true. Just because we may lack faith it doesn't mean God doesn't have access to us and is not a participating presence in our lives.

Many times I see Christians wanting to make scripture into some type of formula. I don't think life is so formulaic and I don't see my relationship with God as being a set of rigid doctrines.

My topic here is about dead Faith. It is that dead faith cannot provide access to Grace. Dead faith being defined as Faith without works as James refers to it. You still seem to be contending against that in my opinion. You don't seem comfortable to me in believing that Dead Faith cannot access Grace.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

My topic here is about dead Faith. It is that dead faith cannot provide access to Grace. Dead faith being defined as Faith without works as James refers to it. You still seem to be contending against that in my opinion. You don't seem comfortable to me in believing that Dead Faith cannot access Grace.

Paul

You can believe that if you want to, I just don't see it that way.

It sounds like you're putting two different scriptures together and creating a doctrine, or dogma, out of it.

Let me ask you a question. If a person's faith is dead what can be done about it?

[Mikko]

My topic here is about dead Faith. It is that dead faith cannot provide access to Grace. Dead faith being defined as Faith without works as James refers to it. You still seem to be contending against that in my opinion. You don't seem comfortable to me in believing that Dead Faith cannot access Grace.

Paul
What James meant was that if there are no works to indicate faith, faith doesn't exist. That's not the same as saying that faith alone is not enough to access grace.:)

[Mikko]

It sounds like you're putting two different scriptures together and creating a doctrine, or dogma, out of it.

A popular passtime among theologians, Yours Truly included.:)

[Mikko]

Does it matter what they do with it? If so, why?

Paul
Not if grace is really unearned favor.:)

[CID_0687]

Not if grace is really unearned favor.:)
Yep

[Semi-Sweet]

In some of these issues of language semantics i don't see it as being either right or wrong just different ways of seeing the issue.

I see faith in context of a relationship and I try not to be legalistic about things. That is the problem when we take one line of scripture and then create a doctrine around it.

Yes we have access to God through our faith. But that doesn't necessarily conclude that it means the opposite is true. Just because we may lack faith it doesn't mean God doesn't have access to us and is not a participating presence in our lives.

Many times I see Christians wanting to make scripture into some type of formula. I don't think life is so formulaic and I don't see my relationship with God as being a set of rigid doctrines.

I agree. We may all yearn as the apostles did for Jesus to "Increase our faith" Luke 17:5. . . .and as the father of the child who was healed said with tears. . ."Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief! Mark 9:24.

The faith that God accounts for righteousness is not itself correctness with God. None can claim correctness. . .Romans 3:9-18.

Righteousness is not accomplished in us by our own doing or that of God. We can only be sinners accounted or reckoned as justified through his gift. Because we cannot do justifying works ourselves, we are totally dependent on grace. Justification is a gift. Works do not produce faith, but living conviction initiates activity.

[trettep]

You can believe that if you want to, I just don't see it that way.

It sounds like you're putting two different scriptures together and creating a doctrine, or dogma, out of it.

Let me ask you a question. If a person's faith is dead what can be done about it?

I'm comparing God's Word to God's Word. Do you really believe that is a bad thing to do? Can it be that your just wrong?

If a person's Faith is dead then they don't have the Christ. If they have the Christ then they won't have dead Faith. Remember even the branches will be pruned from the vine. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But as we can see the scripture speak of dead Faith and a saving Faith. To have a saving Faith requires works and those works are the works of Jesus Christ.

Paul

[Mikko]

I agree. We may all yearn as the apostles did for Jesus to "Increase our faith" Luke 17:5. . . .and as the father of the child who was healed said with tears. . ."Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief! Mark 9:24.

The faith that God accounts for righteousness is not itself correctness with God. None can claim correctness. . .Romans 3:9-18.

Righteousness is not accomplished in us by our own doing or that of God. We can only be sinners accounted or reckoned as justified through his gift. Because we cannot do justifying works ourselves, we are totally dependent on grace. Justification is a gift. Works do not produce faith, but living conviction initiates activity.
I particularly like your last sentence, both as an amateur theologian and as a professional linguist.:)

[trettep]

What James meant was that if there are no works to indicate faith, faith doesn't exist. That's not the same as saying that faith alone is not enough to access grace.:)

So then by that declaration Mikko, since Faith doesn't exist if it doesn't have works then obviously someone cannot access Grace without having Faith that has works.

But to keep true to the scriptures, James was actually showing there was Faith without works. Faith is translated by Strong's in those verses by James as "credence".

Paul

[trettep]

Not if grace is really unearned favor.:)

Mikko, in Revelations Chapters 2 and 3, why is the Lord concerned about giving the Tree of Life to those that have performed Good Works?

Paul

[trettep]

Righteousness is not accomplished in us by our own doing or that of God. We can only be sinners accounted or reckoned as justified through his gift. Because we cannot do justifying works ourselves, we are totally dependent on grace. Justification is a gift. Works do not produce faith, but living conviction initiates activity.

You don't see a problem with that bolded part?

Paul

[Mikko]

So then by that declaration Mikko, since Faith doesn't exist if it doesn't have works then obviously someone cannot access Grace without having Faith that has works.
Semantically, that holds; however, I think we're dealing in a difference in nuance. Faith is one thing; works is another. What James was saying was that, if one truly had faith, the works would manifest as a natural outgrowth of that faith, not that works are necessary in addition to faith in order to access grace. A nuance, to be sure, but a nuance that makes all the difference.:)
But to keep true to the scriptures, James was actually showing there was Faith without works. Faith is translated by Strong's in those verses by James as "credence".

Paul
That's keeping true to one of several possible interpretations of the scriptures - not the only possible interpretation.:)

[Mikko]

Mikko, in Revelations Chapters 2 and 3, why is the Lord concerned about giving the Tree of Life to those that have performed Good Works?

Paul
Because the writer of Revelation obviously didn't think faith alone was sufficient to access grace, as did Paul, and, many believe, James.:)

[trettep]

Semantically, that holds; however, I think we're dealing in a difference in nuance. Faith is one thing; works is another. What James was saying was that, if one truly had faith, the works would manifest as a natural outgrowth of that faith, not that works are necessary in addition to faith in order to access grace. A nuance, to be sure, but a nuance that makes all the difference.:)

That's keeping true to one of several possible interpretations of the scriptures - not the only possible interpretation.:)

Then in that case Mikko, you have no problem in believing that Faith without works ("dead Faith") can access Grace.

Obviously, I disagree.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

I'm comparing God's Word to God's Word. Do you really believe that is a bad thing to do? Can it be that your just wrong?

I don't think it is a bad thing to do. I just don't see the wisdom in making a binding set in stone doctrine out of our beliefs.

All of what we are discussing is our beliefs and opinions on this topic. So it isn't about being right or wrong. You need to live with beliefs that are right for you just as I need to live with beliefs which seem right for me.

If a person's Faith is dead then they don't have the Christ. If they have the Christ then they won't have dead Faith. Remember even the branches will be pruned from the vine. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But as we can see the scripture speak of dead Faith and a saving Faith. To have a saving Faith requires works and those works are the works of Jesus Christ.

Paul

You're thinking style demonstrates circular logic and my experience has show me that there are multidimensional and abstract and even contradictory was at looking at things of faith and the world is not as black and white as most want to paint it. There are many shades of grey.

I can have my mind set in stone about things, and I often do, but then life comes at me and shows me there are always many ways of looking at something.

[trettep]

Because the writer of Revelation obviously didn't think faith alone was sufficient to access grace, as did Paul, and, many believe, James.:)

Did Paul believe that works were required in order to obtain aionios life?

Paul

[trettep]

I don't think it is a bad thing to do. I just don't see the wisdom in making a binding set in stone doctrine out of our beliefs.


God isn't bending in His doctrines. To this day I know of nobody that hasn't had to toil in their lifetime (the punishment given to those in the body of Adam).


All of what we are discussing is our beliefs and opinions on this topic. So it isn't about being right or wrong. You need to live with beliefs that are right for you just as I need to live with beliefs which seem right for me.


I believe if that if it wasn't about being right or wrong then the significance of Jesus not having sin would be a mute point.


You're thinking style demonstrates circular logic and my experience has show me that there are multidimensional and abstract and even contradictory was at looking at things of faith and the world is not as black and white as most want to pain it. There are many shades of grey.

I can have my mind set in stone about things, and I often do, but then life comes at me and shows me there are always many ways of looking at something.

Taylor, if you have discounted my opinion and this message is to anyone else here - please let me know. I will not have to engage this subject with you further and ask that someone who does agree to step in and be a second witness to what I'm saying to you.

Paul

[Semi-Sweet]

I particularly like your last sentence, both as an amateur theologian and as a professional linguist.:)

Profession linguist. . . impressive. :)

[TaylorW65]

God isn't bending in His doctrines. To this day I know of nobody that hasn't had to toil in their lifetime (the punishment given to those in the body of Adam).



I believe if that if it wasn't about being right or wrong then the significance of Jesus not having sin would be a mute point.



Taylor, if you have discounted my opinion and this message is to anyone else here - please let me know. I will not have to engage this subject with you further and ask that someone who does agree to step in and be a second witness to what I'm saying to you.

Paul

This is a forum for discussing and debating ideas. Certainly we don't have to agree. You started this thread looking to discuss the issue. I put my two cents in and we are discussing this issue. If you're end goal is to get me to agree with you I don't think that will happen.

So I don't know what you're looking for. If agreement is all you want I can't give it to you. But if a different perspective is what you want that I can give.

I am not trying to convince you I'm right either. I don't think you're wrong. If those are your beliefs they are right for you, they're just not right for me.

[Semi-Sweet]

You don't see a problem with that bolded part?

Paul

Nope. Undoubtedly you do.

[trettep]

This is a forum for discussing and debating ideas. Certainly we don't have to agree. You started this thread looking to discuss the issue. I put my two cents in and we are discussing this issue. If you're end goal is to get me to agree with you I don't think that will happen.

So I don't know what you're looking for. If agreement is all you want I can't give it to you. But if a different perspective is what you want that I can give.

I am not trying to convince you I'm right either. I don't think you're wrong. If those are your beliefs they are right for you, they're just not right for me.

Taylor, I believe that God gives an ear to hear His message. I believe that what I'm saying is His message. If you can't hear it then God hasn't given you the ear. I can understand disagreement, but irrationality and illogical pursuits are quite different. So I hope you understand that I have an obligation not to engage in fruitless debate.

Paul

[trettep]

Nope. Undoubtedly you do.

Ok, thanks for your time Semi-Sweet.

Paul

[Semi-Sweet]

Ok, thanks for your time Semi-Sweet.

Paul

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound snippy. Would you please tell me what was wrong with it trettep? I can be wrong. . . .I have been wrong before.

[TaylorW65]

Taylor, I believe that God gives an ear to hear His message. I believe that what I'm saying is His message. If you can't hear it then God hasn't given you the ear. I can understand disagreement, but irrationality and illogical pursuits are quite different. So I hope you understand that I have an obligation not to engage in fruitless debate.

Paul



You see, that is the scary part of Christianity. People who believe that they are speaking God's truth and those who disagree are somehow out of God's loop.

As a therapist that is a huge warning sign and a very dangerous schema.

[HokieCougarVandal]

Taylor, I believe that God gives an ear to hear His message. I believe that what I'm saying is His message. If you can't hear it then God hasn't given you the ear. I can understand disagreement, but irrationality and illogical pursuits are quite different. So I hope you understand that I have an obligation not to engage in fruitless debate.

Paul

:eek::eek::eek:

[trettep]

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound snippy. Would you please tell me what was wrong with it trettep? I can be wrong. . . .I have been wrong before.

You said the following:

Righteousness is not accomplished in us by our own doing or that of God.

If Righteousness IS accomplished in us then if it isn't by us or by God then who else is it accomplished by? - It is God that is accomplishing righteousness in us.

Semi-Sweet, it is Jesus that puts down sin in our own flesh. This is how we are saved. See He is the one that has the power over sin. He came in the flesh to show that He has that power. Now when we have the Christ in us then He is actively putting down our sins in our own flesh. This is how we are saved Semi-Sweet. Sin is what brings the wage of death. When we receive the Christ - we receive forgiveness for past sins. Consider the this parable at Matthew 18:23. Notice in the parable how the servant is immediately forgiven of his debt when he asks for mercy. After that Jesus must be actively putting down sin in our flesh. If that is not happening then it means we don't have Christ. We must be producing fruit. That is the key. If were not continuing to produce fruit then the branch is removed from the vine. Consider the parable of the pounds (talents) for more info. Jesus has a copyright on Good Works. He owns every good work that anyone has ever done. If we do something good then it is His Good work done through us but if He is not praised for that good work then we have robbed Him of that glory.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

:eek::eek::eek:

That made my eyes bug out a bit too.

[Koushi Shinigami]

therapist

I see three words there. Do you? :D

[Semi-Sweet]

I particularly like your last sentence, both as an amateur theologian and as a professional linguist.:)

Now that I have thought about it, "amateur theologian" is more impressive than professional linguist . :)

[bobfisher]

Righteousness is not accomplished in us by our own doing or that of God.

I have a problem with the bolded part (not the underlined part).

First, what is it to be righhteous:

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Can any human "do righteousness" of himself? No. There is none good. But what about the good works ordained by God and made possible because we are His workmanship? Are those "doing righteousness"? Of course they are. What else would they be?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Semi-Sweet]

You said the following:

Righteousness is not accomplished in us by our own doing or that of God.

If Righteousness IS accomplished in us then if it isn't by us or by God then who else is it accomplished by? - It is God that is accomplishing righteousness in us.

Semi-Sweet, it is Jesus that puts down sin in our own flesh. This is how we are saved. See He is the one that has the power over sin. He came in the flesh to show that He has that power. Now when we have the Christ in us then He is actively putting down our sins in our own flesh. This is how we are saved Semi-Sweet. Sin is what brings the wage of death. When we receive the Christ - we receive forgiveness for past sins. Consider the this parable at Matthew 18:23. Notice in the parable how the servant is immediately forgiven of his debt when he asks for mercy. After that Jesus must be actively putting down sin in our flesh. If that is not happening then it means we don't have Christ. We must be producing fruit. That is the key. If were not continuing to produce fruit then the branch is removed from the vine. Consider the parable of the pounds (talents) for more info. Jesus has a copyright on Good Works. He owns every good work that anyone has ever done. If we do something good then it is His Good work done through us but if He is not praised for that good work then we have robbed Him of that glory.

Paul

"But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" . . .before the command to build an ark was given. The faith through which he had found favor led him to do what God told him, or. . . . .he would have become a drowned believer.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called. . . " From Hebrews 11. God declared, "Now I know you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me" Wasn't that when he was accounted righteous and became pleasing in God's sight? James tells us, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" . . .James 2:21.

The heroes of faith had neither sufficient faith nor works to produce a flawless character. They were not justified by personal perfection. None could develop the ultimate perfection of character or obedience. If either, or both, of those qualities were necessary for right standing before God, they would have been hopeless.

The way I see it. . . .Our prospect is no better. God does not perfect our character but, by His grace, he accounts us as though we were perfect. Our right standing before God is a gift. . .not an achievement even by grace which we must reach out to receive.

I might be missing something Paul, but this is the way I understand it.

[smyrna]

James says that Faith can be dead faith:

Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

Paul says:

That Faith is required even to access Grace:

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

So it is in error to conclude that dead Faith cannot access Grace?

Paul

Each of us have to work out our own salvation.

Most people leave their dwelling at some time. Opportunities to serve the Lord by being a good neighbor have surely come up. The question is did you have eyes that see and ears that hear?

The final analysis is that the Lord knows your heart and he is the judge.

[trettep]

"But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" . . .before the command to build an ark was given. The faith through which he had found favor led him to do what God told him, or. . . . .he would have become a drowned believer.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called. . . " From Hebrews 11. God declared, "Now I know you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me" Wasn't that when he was accounted righteous and became pleasing in God's sight? James tells us, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" . . .James 2:21.

The heroes of faith had neither sufficient faith nor works to produce a flawless character. They were not justified by personal perfection. None could develop the ultimate perfection of character or obedience. If either, or both, of those qualities were necessary for right standing before God, they would have been hopeless.

The way I see it. . . .Our prospect is no better. God does not perfect our character but, by His grace, he accounts us as though we were perfect. Our right standing before God is a gift. . .not an achievement even by grace which we must reach out to receive.

I might be missing something Paul, but this is the way I understand it.

God does perfect our character. I suggest you read the parable of the pounds (talents). Not all produced the same amount in the parable but the point was those that were favored were those that did produce. See the scriptures talk about not IMPUTING sin. I suggest you do searching on this and consider what that means. Jesus says to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. Surely, He meant what He said and didn't mean to just wait around until a more appropriate time. God perfecting our Character is still a Gift.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am of the belief that I can be perfected by the working of my Lord Jesus Christ through me.

Paul

[Semi-Sweet]

God does perfect our character. I suggest you read the parable of the pounds (talents). Not all produced the same amount in the parable but the point was those that were favored were those that did produce. See the scriptures talk about not IMPUTING sin. I suggest you do searching on this and consider what that means. Jesus says to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. Surely, He meant what He said and didn't mean to just wait around until a more appropriate time. God perfecting our Character is still a Gift.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am of the belief that I can be perfected by the working of my Lord Jesus Christ through me.

Paul

The word 'perfect' reminds me of this Scripture in James 3. . . . "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

For all of us make many mistakes. Anyone who makes no mistakes in speaking is perfect, able to keep the whole body in check with a bridle. If we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we guide their whole bodies.

. . . . . . . . . .(skipping to vs 5). . . So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great exploits.

How great a forest is set ablaze by a small fire! And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is placed among our members as a world of iniquity; it stains the whole body, sets on fire the cycle of nature, and is itself set on fire by hell.

For every species of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species. . .

. . . . but no one can tame the tongue. . .a restless evil, full of deadly poison."


James is telling us that the person who can tame his tongue is a perfect man. . . . . .and then he tells us that no one can tame the tongue. . . . . . :eek:

Our English dictionary tells us that "righteous" means acting rightly or according to what is right. Vine defines it as that which is in accordance with rule, right, and justice. It becomes a synonym with "just". A just person is without prejudice or partiality.

Can an unbeliever make just and right choices while a believer is prevented from making bad and unjust choices?

Righteousness is the character or quality of being right or just, but that is a matter of degree. When one is said to be righteous, it is understood that he is not perfected in his judgment and conduct. He is recognized as a person who seeks to be ethical in all his conduct.

In a general sense, describing a person as being ethical or righteous refers to his moral character rather than his salvation or rightness with God.

In relation to God, no one can claim perfect rightness through his own effort. He cannot rectify a single lapse. However, in view of his faith, God, through Christ, graciously accepts him as though his conduct were perfect. Though he is a sinner, God accepts him as a righteous person.

[trettep]

The word 'perfect' reminds me of this Scripture in James 3. . . . "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

For all of us make many mistakes. Anyone who makes no mistakes in speaking is perfect, able to keep the whole body in check with a bridle. If we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we guide their whole bodies.

. . . . . . . . . .(skipping to vs 5). . . So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great exploits.

How great a forest is set ablaze by a small fire! And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is placed among our members as a world of iniquity; it stains the whole body, sets on fire the cycle of nature, and is itself set on fire by hell.

For every species of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species. . .

. . . . but no one can tame the tongue. . .a restless evil, full of deadly poison."


James is telling us that the person who can tame his tongue is a perfect man. . . . . .and then he tells us that no one can tame the tongue. . . . . . :eek:

Our English dictionary tells us that "righteous" means acting rightly or according to what is right. Vine defines it as that which is in accordance with rule, right, and justice. It becomes a synonym with "just". A just person is without prejudice or partiality.

Can an unbeliever make just and right choices while a believer is prevented from making bad and unjust choices?

Righteousness is the character or quality of being right or just, but that is a matter of degree. When one is said to be righteous, it is understood that he is not perfected in his judgment and conduct. He is recognized as a person who seeks to be ethical in all his conduct.

In a general sense, describing a person as being ethical or righteous refers to his moral character rather than his salvation or rightness with God.

In relation to God, no one can claim perfect rightness through his own effort. He cannot rectify a single lapse. However, in view of his faith, God, through Christ, graciously accepts him as though his conduct were perfect. Though he is a sinner, God accepts him as a righteous person.

Semi-Sweet, I am going to move on to the others.

Paul

[Gem]

To me, faith is believing and trusting and having hope in God.

And grace is a virtue coming from God. and there for that means you have favor and are pleasing to God.
God gives you pardon and shows you mercy by grace.

If you don't have faith how can you believe there is a God. without faith you would not believe in a God or the gifts and miracles He works for you.

Hebrews 11: says this about faith.

1- Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2- For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3- By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
----------------------------------------------
4- By faith Able offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5- By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, and was not found, because God had taken him, for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6- But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

You see you could not serve God with out having faith.
And as soon as you accept God in your life God shows you grace. He has mercy on you and accepts you into the kingdom of God. This is why you must always keep the faith in God.

[gpd®]

James says that Faith can be dead faith:

Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

Paul says:

That Faith is required even to access Grace:

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

So it is in error to conclude that dead Faith cannot access Grace?

Paul

Great verse. Learned this weekend at service that James was repeating Jesus' command to help the helpless.

[bobfisher]

James is telling us that the person who can tame his tongue is a perfect man. . . . . .and then he tells us that no one can tame the tongue. . . . . . :eek:

James is telling us that no man can tame his own tongue. But that's not the question. The question is can God tame man's tongue.

[Semi-Sweet]

James is telling us that no man can tame his own tongue. But that's not the question. The question is can God tame man's tongue.

I am sure God can, but does He say that He will? Faith in a believer is mighty powerful. From Hebrews. . .Faith brought down the walls of Jericho. By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land. They subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. They even quenched fire and escaped the sword. In their weakness they found strength, and they were valiant and victorious in battle, putting their enemies to flight.

Quite impressive! That is what faith does. If one has sufficient faith he can claim victory over both the sword and the mouth of lions. Tame the tongue? That would certainly be a good goal to work toward even if it can't be done. Well. . .maybe with duck tape. . .:silenced:

[bobfisher]

I am sure God can, but does He say that He will? Faith in a believer is mighty powerful. From Hebrews. . .Faith brought down the walls of Jericho. By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land. They subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. They even quenched fire and escaped the sword. In their weakness they found strength, and they were valiant and victorious in battle, putting their enemies to flight.

Quite impressive! That is what faith does. If one has sufficient faith he can claim victory over both the sword and the mouth of lions. Tame the tongue? That would certainly be a good goal to work toward even if it can't be done. Well. . .maybe with duck tape. . .:silenced:

Yes very impressive! IMO those things could all be shadows of our victory in Christ through faith over the man of sin, our carnal nature.

Will God tame the tongue? Yes, the image of God's Son does not have an untamed tongue or an evil heart.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

PS I don't think this is ever accomplished fully in our lifetimes, not until the resurrection, but it is the mark that we strive towards by faith while in the flesh.

PSS God reckoned Abraham's faith to be righteosness the moment Abraham believed because God saw to the end of Abraham's faith and knew that Abraham would be righteous. God calls those things which are not yet as though they are.

[Mikko]

You said regardless of whose works they are. Obviously, that can't be the case. So the works must of a particular party since Paul tells us that our works can't save us and yet tells us that works are indeed requires. So to whom do these other works come from that are required? - Christ Jesus.

Paul
What you have indicated is simply a contradiction within the writings attributed to Paul.:)

[Mikko]

Dead Faith - is a lack of saving Faith (Faith with Good works).

Paul
Paul said, "by grace are you saved through faith," not, "by grace are you saved through faith with good works.":)

[Mikko]

Then in that case Mikko, you have no problem in believing that Faith without works ("dead Faith") can access Grace.
As we have repeated ad infinitum here, faith without works does not exist; however, it is faith that saves, not works. Works are a byproduct of faith, but they have no salvific value.:)

Obviously, I disagree.

Paul
As I have pointed out, you are disagreeing with something I never said.:)

[Mikko]

Profession linguist. . . impressive. :)
I'm glad you think so. It's just what I love to do, and fortunately, I make my living at it.:)

[Mikko]

:eek::eek::eek:
Word!:)

[bobfisher]

As we have repeated ad infinitum here, faith without works does not exist; however, it is faith that saves, not works. Works are a byproduct of faith, but they have no salvific value.:)

Is love a work?

This woman was forgiven because she loved Christ much. So her love saved her from her sins.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Yet, here Christ says here faith saved her.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

I don't see much of a separation between the two - her love & faith.

[Mikko]

Is love a work?

This woman was forgiven because she loved Christ much. So her love saved her from her sins.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Yet, here Christ says here faith saved her.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

I don't see much of a separation between the two - her love & faith.
They go together. You won't find one without the other. They go together like Kibbles & Bits.:)

[terri910]

Is love a work?Love is certainly an act of will, so some could consider it a "work."

[Koushi Shinigami]

Is love a work?



For some it's more of a work than others.

[RayMan]

For some it's more of a work than others.

Faith is energized through the expenditure of love.

Weymouth New Testament
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any importance; but only faith working through love.

Working: grk. energeō

[texan_rep]

I thought we had established that "dead faith" is the lack of faith.:)

I wouldn't say you've "established" anything. You believe it, fine. But "established"? Hardly.

[texan_rep]

What James meant was that if there are no works to indicate faith, faith doesn't exist.

I don't agree with you, but many other people do.

[texan_rep]

Love is greater than faith. 1 Cor 13

The concept of "saving faith" and "faith" being two different things is a concept not found anywhere in the Bible.

[BillyBobUSA]

James says that Faith can be dead faith:

Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

Paul says:

That Faith is required even to access Grace:

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

So it is in error to conclude that dead Faith cannot access Grace?

Paul


Even the demons believe and yet shudder knowing their fate when the day of Judgement comes.

[Mikko]

I wouldn't say you've "established" anything. You believe it, fine. But "established"? Hardly.
I wasn't addressing my comment to you; I was addressing it to someone who seemed to me to be shifting between two definitions of faith.:)

[Mikko]

I don't agree with you, but many other people do.
How comforting!:)

[Mikko]

Faith is energized through the expenditure of love.

Weymouth New Testament
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any importance; but only faith working through love.

Working: grk. energeō
Which brings us to the relationship between circumcision and love, but I'll leave the commentary on that topic to Dr. Dean Edell.:)

[Mikko]

Love is greater than faith. 1 Cor 13

The concept of "saving faith" and "faith" being two different things is a concept not found anywhere in the Bible.
Not according to our esteemed OP.:)

[bobfisher]

Not according to our esteemed OP.:)

Not according to James either.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Of course this is speaking of empty mental assent, not true faith.

[gpd®]

Not according to James either.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Of course this is speaking of empty mental assent, not true faith.

IMO, works are the "fruit" of faith. Without "fruit," the faith could be sterile.

[Mikko]

IMO, works are the "fruit" of faith. Without "fruit," the faith could be sterile.
What James was saying, IMO, was that if there are no works, there is no faith.:)

[trettep]

In another forum where we have a similiar discussion going on right now, I presented the formula if you will to give some illustration to salvation here. Obviously this is not all inclusive but here it is:

Faith + works (obedience) -> recursive (Faith and Works) = Growing Grace -> salvation.

What this means is that by Faith + works (not our works but His) we access Grace. By continuing in that Faith and those works we Grow in Grace and if we endure to the end we receive Salvation.

Hope that helps.

Paul

[gpd®]

In another forum where we have a similiar discussion going on right now, I presented the formula if you will to give some illustration to salvation here. Obviously this is not all inclusive but here it is:

Faith + works (obedience) -> recursive (Faith and Works) = Growing Grace -> salvation.

What this means is that by Faith + works (not our works but His) we access Grace. By continuing in that Faith and those works we Grow in Grace and if we endure to the end we receive Salvation.

Hope that helps.

Paul

I like the train of thought here.

I would build this equation:

Grace>Faith>Works>Hell

(Grace is greater than Faith, which is greater than Works, which is greater than hell.)

[TaylorW65]

In another forum where we have a similiar discussion going on right now, I presented the formula if you will to give some illustration to salvation here. Obviously this is not all inclusive but here it is:

Faith + works (obedience) -> recursive (Faith and Works) = Growing Grace -> salvation.

What this means is that by Faith + works (not our works but His) we access Grace. By continuing in that Faith and those works we Grow in Grace and if we endure to the end we receive Salvation.

Hope that helps.

Paul

So in the end it sounds like as long as you keep the faith you will earn salvation.

[gpd®]

What James was saying, IMO, was that if there are no works, there is no faith.:)

Is there any works possible for people who have a "mustard seed" size of faith?

I think Jesus was asking us to have faith first and then He could built on that. People with "mustard seed" faith probably hadn't reached the echelon of doing any kind of works yet.

[gpd®]

So in the end it sounds like as long as you keep the faith you will earn salvation.

The thief on the cross?

[TaylorW65]

The thief on the cross?

Exactly. Salvation is not a real complicated formula. Just have simple child-like trust.

[gpd®]

Exactly. Salvation is not a real complicated formula. Just have simple child-like trust.

I once told my pastor that I didn't feel any calling to any kind of ministry.

He told me, "Some people are just called to tithe."

I've lived a pretty much guilt-free life as long as I know my tithes are going to a good place.

I feel saved.

[trettep]

I like the train of thought here.

I would build this equation:

Grace>Faith>Works>Hell

(Grace is greater than Faith, which is greater than Works, which is greater than hell.)

Can't have Grace without the works - not our works but His.

Paul

[trettep]

So in the end it sounds like as long as you keep the faith you will earn salvation.

Correct!

Paul

[trettep]

The thief on the cross?

To me the Thief did one of the most amazing things. When Jesus was on the cross and looked as if he was nothing but a man and not Lord, he was acknowledged at what the many would have believed to be his lowest point, as a King.

Paul

[trettep]

Are the unrighteous saved?

Jas 2:24 Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only;

Paul

[TaylorW65]

Correct!

Paul

Then it is not Grace if it is earned.

[trettep]

Then it is not Grace if it is earned.

Who earns it? Those in Christ are DEAD. Christ is the one doing the works. He already has salvation.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

Who earns it? Those in Christ are DEAD. Christ is the one doing the works. He already has salvation.

Paul

Christ has earned salvation for all of mankind by his death and resurrection. He paid the price for our sins. Over and done. We are all now made right in the eyes of God through the work that Jesus did.

Don't confuse salvation with sanctification. I am a Christian Universalist and believe that Christ has saved all of humanity and there is nothing we can do to earn heaven, it is God's free gift.

Now sanctification is our process of spiritual growth whereby Jesus works in us to prefect our love and make us more Christ like. Sanctification is for our spiritual growth so we can be more Christ like in this life it is not to make us more acceptable to God for Christ has already done that on the cross.

[Semi-Sweet]

Yes very impressive! IMO those things could all be shadows of our victory in Christ through faith over the man of sin, our carnal nature.

Will God tame the tongue? Yes, the image of God's Son does not have an untamed tongue or an evil heart.

I wonder if He would also tame our fingers and control what we type. . . J/K

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Backing up to vs 16 of chapter 8. . ."It is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. . .if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him."

vs 28-29. . . ."We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family."

Ephesians 3:14-15. . ."For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name."

I thought that predestination meant: God planned to have a large family and He did. I have never thought that we were individually predestined, but it was. . . "whosoever will, may freely come to God" and be a part of the family. The family was predestined, with Jesus being the firstborn of the family.

[trettep]

Christ has earned salvation for all of mankind by his death and resurrection. He paid the price for our sins. Over and done. We are all now made right in the eyes of God through the work that Jesus did.

Don't confuse salvation with sanctification. I am a Christian Universalist and believe that Christ has saved all of humanity and there is nothing we can do to earn heaven, it is God's free gift.

Now sanctification is our process of spiritual growth whereby Jesus works in us to prefect our love and make us more Christ like. Sanctification is for our spiritual growth so we can be more Christ like in this life it is not to make us more acceptable to God for Christ has already done that on the cross.

I'm a universalist also Taylor, but I believe we are saved BY Jesus - not because of Jesus. I believe that Jesus must be putting down sin in our own flesh. Salvation is to be saved from sin and its wages which is death. I believe sanctification is part of the salvation process. Again, I have never said that we can do anything to earn salvation. It is a gift. Christ is the one that does the works in us. But it is by Faith and His Works through us that we access Grace.

Paul

[TaylorW65]

I'm a universalist also Taylor, but I believe we are saved BY Jesus - not because of Jesus. I believe that Jesus must be putting down sin in our own flesh. Salvation is to be saved from sin and its wages which is death. I believe sanctification is part of the salvation process. Again, I have never said that we can do anything to earn salvation. It is a gift. Christ is the one that does the works in us. But it is by Faith and His Works through us that we access Grace.

Paul

Ok, I see where you're coming from better now and I agree.

[bobfisher]

I thought that predestination meant: God planned to have a large family and He did. I have never thought that we were individually predestined, but it was. . . "whosoever will, may freely come to God" and be a part of the family. The family was predestined, with Jesus being the firstborn of the family.

Individual predestination does not conflict with "whosoever will, may freely come to God." Is this the verse you are referring to?

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is my understanding that "freely" is not referring to the "free will" of the one coming. Rather, it refers to the fact the the water of life is a gift. It is given and received without cost. No matter though, because it does say "whosoever will" so I agree that no one is compelled to come against their will.

So how could God individually predestinate anyone to come without compelling them to come against their will? He could. God made both the laws of nature and spiritual laws. If someone wanders around in the desert under the hot sun long enough, they get extremely thirsty. No matter how stubborn they are they will eventually want water above all else. The same happens in the spiritual realm.

Psalms 107:4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. 5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them. 6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.

None of the redeemed of the Lord came freely without first wandering and getting thirsty. God bid many to come to His supper and none of the bidden came. They were preoccupied with this and that. They were not thirsty. So God brought in the lame and the blind. Maybe they were thirsty? He who is forgiven much loveth much. He who is forgiven little loveth little.

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Ok, so back to this:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Are you suggesting that God is not the One conforming us to the image of His Son? Surely if we conform ourselves to the image of God's Son by the power of our free wills then we have the power to save ourselves from our sins. We have reason to boast.

Here are some things Paul said that I think pertain:
"But by the grace of God I am what I am""we are His workmanship" "that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" "Now the God of peace...make you perfect in every good work to do his will""Hath not the potter power over the clay...to make one vessel unto honour""but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness""afterward it [God's chastisement] yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby"


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It seems to me that God tamed the tongue of Nebuchadnezzar:

TONGUE BEFORE
"Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?"

TONGUE AFTER
"How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom...I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

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Finally, here is an explicit statement where God tames the tongue:

Zephenia 3:8 Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed, and lie down, and there shall be none to terrify them. 14 Rejoice, O daughter of Sion; cry aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem; rejoice and delight thyself with all thine heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The Lord has taken away thine iniquities, he has ransomed thee from the hand of thine enemies: the Lord, the King of Israel, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

[jmacvols]

And if it's the lack of saving faith then there is no faith at all....With no faith there can be no works

....and with no works there can be no faith.

[Semi-Sweet]

Individual predestination does not conflict with "whosoever will, may freely come to God." Is this the verse you are referring to?

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is my understanding that "freely" is not referring to the "free will" of the one coming. Rather, it refers to the fact the the water of life is a gift. It is given and received without cost. No matter though, because it does say "whosoever will" so I agree that no one is compelled to come against their will.

So how could God individually predestinate anyone to come without compelling them to come against their will? He could. God made both the laws of nature and spiritual laws. If someone wanders around in the desert under the hot sun long enough, they get extremely thirsty. No matter how stubborn they are they will eventually want water above all else. The same happens in the spiritual realm.

Psalms 107:4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. 5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them. 6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.

None of the redeemed of the Lord came freely without first wandering and getting thirsty. God bid many to come to His supper and none of the bidden came. They were preoccupied with this and that. They were not thirsty. So God brought in the lame and the blind. Maybe they were thirsty? He who is forgiven much loveth much. He who is forgiven little loveth little.

How much love could we have for God if we were coerced into serving Him? Was Mary a free moral agent? Could she have refused? She could have said no. Right? If not, it was not a free moral act on her part, and it was not praiseworthy, for she was coerced by divine decree, and hardly more than a puppet on a string. For an act to be praiseworthy it must be done freely and willingly, and with some understanding of the risk involved.

Mary showed great courage, for she knew her life would be radically changed forever. She acted in the face of known danger. But only if she were free. She faced but two options, Yes or No. She chose yes, but she could have said no.

And then there is Judas. Jesus says, "One of you will betray me" as if it were foreordained. . .and "Woe be to the man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

It was decreed that Judas would betray the Messiah. . .he had to do it. . .and yet he was damned for doing it. Both praise. . .as in the case of Mary. . .and blame . .as in the case of Judas. . .infer free will and responsibility of action. Otherwise praise and blame have no meaning. We can't blame a person for doing what he could not avoid doing.

Judas saw his infamous act as his own evil deed, freely committed. He did not say that God made him do it. He nobly and boldly returned to the Jewish leaders and threw the thirty pieces of silver at their feet, confessing that he had betrayed innocent blood, as if in repentance. He went on to commit suicide, as if desperately regretful about the way things had gone. Judas did not act the way we would expect a betrayer to act after his foul deed. But he appears to be acting freely, even if desperately.

[Semi-Sweet]

Ok, so back to this:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Are you suggesting that God is not the One conforming us to the image of His Son? Surely if we conform ourselves to the image of God's Son by the power of our free wills then we have the power to save ourselves from our sins. We have reason to boast.

Here are some things Paul said that I think pertain:
"But by the grace of God I am what I am""we are His workmanship" "that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" "Now the God of peace...make you perfect in every good work to do his will""Hath not the potter power over the clay...to make one vessel unto honour""but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness""afterward it [God's chastisement] yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I give you these passages that show us our responsibility as disciples.

2 Peter 1:5. . .For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual-affection with love.

For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For anyone who lacks these things is nearsighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble.

For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you."

I believe Galatians 5:22-23. . ."By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

They spell Christlikeness. This is the ultimate purpose of God both in spirit and in body. As Paul put it in 1 Cor. 15:49. . ."As we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven". That is God's purpose for us. And that is the mission of the Holy Spirit.

[bobfisher]

How much love could we have for God if we were coerced into serving Him? Was Mary a free moral agent? Could she have refused? She could have said no. Right? If not, it was not a free moral act on her part, and it was not praiseworthy, for she was coerced by divine decree, and hardly more than a puppet on a string. For an act to be praiseworthy it must be done freely and willingly, and with some understanding of the risk involved.

Mary showed great courage, for she knew her life would be radically changed forever. She acted in the face of known danger. But only if she were free. She faced but two options, Yes or No. She chose yes, but she could have said no.

And then there is Judas. Jesus says, "One of you will betray me" as if it were foreordained. . .and "Woe be to the man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

It was decreed that Judas would betray the Messiah. . .he had to do it. . .and yet he was damned for doing it. Both praise. . .as in the case of Mary. . .and blame . .as in the case of Judas. . .infer free will and responsibility of action. Otherwise praise and blame have no meaning. We can't blame a person for doing what he could not avoid doing.

Judas saw his infamous act as his own evil deed, freely committed. He did not say that God made him do it. He nobly and boldly returned to the Jewish leaders and threw the thirty pieces of silver at their feet, confessing that he had betrayed innocent blood, as if in repentance. He went on to commit suicide, as if desperately regretful about the way things had gone. Judas did not act the way we would expect a betrayer to act after his foul deed. But he appears to be acting freely, even if desperately.

In what sense do you understand me to believe that people are coerced into coming to the Lord? As I said "so I agree that no one is compelled to come against their will."

Is a child who is disciplined against his will to learn right from wrong being coerced to love what is right? Or is he bring taught?

Is it possible that Judas' remorse, courage and maybe even repentance came from finally seeing how wrong he was? It is not coercion to compel a person to bear their sin with the intent of bringing them to repentance.

Both Mary and Judas made real and normal choices in the same manner you and I make choices. God did not puppeteer them or choose for them. As such Judas was held accountable and Mary was rightfully praised.

To me it makes littles sense to ask "Could Mary have said no?". Could she have said no IF WHAT? Something would have to be different for Mary to say "no" instead of "yes". Either Mary would have to be different or the circumstances would have to be different. So if God rewound and replayed the world 100 times the same way, Mary would have said "yes" 100 times because Mary would still be Mary in every one of them. That is why, in the case of Judas, Jesus could declare exactly what Judas would do before he did it without "making him do it".

Likewise, If God rewound the world 100 times Sodom and Gommorah would have been destroyed 100 times. Unless of course they were given by God to witness the works Christ did in the flesh. In that case they would have repented and been spared.

So even though Sodom & Gommorrah made what you call a "free will" choice and were destroyed, God could have predestined them to make a different "free will" choice to repent and be spared. And had God done so they would have been highly remiss to scorn others who were destroyed for not repenting. They'd better THANK GOD and not their "free wills" for bringing them to repentance.

[Semi-Sweet]

In what sense do you understand me to believe that people are coerced into coming to the Lord? As I said "so I agree that no one is compelled to come against their will."

When you said this.

So how could God individually predestinate anyone to come without compelling them to come against their will? He could. God made both the laws of nature and spiritual laws. If someone wanders around in the desert under the hot sun long enough, they get extremely thirsty. No matter how stubborn they are they will eventually want water above all else. The same happens in the spiritual realm.

Did I misunderstand?

[bobfisher]

I give you these passages that show us our responsibility as disciples.

They spell Christlikeness. This is the ultimate purpose of God both in spirit and in body. As Paul put it in 1 Cor. 15:49. . ."As we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven". That is God's purpose for us. And that is the mission of the Holy Spirit.

Amen Semi-Sweet. I'm not sure exactly what point you are making relative to our previous posts though. Is it because I beleive God predestinates man to be conformed to the image of His Son? Does that make you think that I believe we have no responsibilities to God?

[bobfisher]

Did I misunderstand?

Possibly.

"So how could God individually predestinate anyone to come without compelling them to come against their will? He could. God made both the laws of nature and spiritual laws. If someone wanders around in the desert under the hot sun long enough, they get extremely thirsty. No matter how stubborn they are they will eventually want water above all else. The same happens in the spiritual realm."

In short: God could and does predestinate people to come, WITHOUT COMPELLING them to come against their wills.

Unless you think compelling sinners to get "thirsty" in the desert of their sin is compelling them to come.

[Dancer]

I once told my pastor that I didn't feel any calling to any kind of ministry.

He told me, "Some people are just called to tithe."

I've lived a pretty much guilt-free life as long as I know my tithes are going to a good place.

I feel saved.What are you calling a 'work'?

Perhaps you are a parent? If so, perhaps being a loving parent raising the next generation of believers is the 'work' that God has prepared for you?

[Ron Jon]

James says that Faith can be dead faith:

Jas 2:17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

Paul says:

That Faith is required even to access Grace:

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

So it is in error to conclude that dead Faith cannot access Grace?

PaulYes, it is in error to conclude that dead faith can access grace. There are only two types of faith. Active (alive) and Inactive (dead) faith. Look at what James is saying in CONTEXT. Read chapter 1 and 2 to see who James is talking to (and about).

Don't be like those people who simply sit in a pew and listen to a sermon and DO NOTHING else. Rather, be like those who actively go out and MINISTER to others and who "visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep [themselves] unspotted from the world."

What good does it do to say you have faith but your so-called "faith" produces no fruit? "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have action, is "dead" and useless.

[Ron Jon]

I thought we had established that "dead faith" is the lack of faith.:)No, actually, I think it's more accurate to say that a dead faith is an inactive faith. Not that their faith doesn't exist. It's simply "dead" and useless (being inactive). But I wouldn't call that a lack of faith.

[Ron Jon]

WE have.

The simplest definition of the word "Dead" is, does not exist....So dead faith would be nonexistent faith...I disagree. When a person dies. Do they cease to exist? A corpse certainly exists. But, because the body is dead, it's inactive (not non-existent). Faith works the same way. A dead faith is simply a faith which is not active and is therefore useless. An active faith is alive and produces good works.

[Ron Jon]

What James meant was that if there are no works to indicate faith, faith doesn't exist. That's not the same as saying that faith alone is not enough to access grace.:)
Sorry, but I doubt you are qualified to tell us what James meant. You are more than welcome to tell us what YOU THINK he meant and how you interpret his words.