How do you know you're in Frog Soup?

[IndyBec]

You've heard the tale of two frogs. Throw one in boiling water, and end up with a hopping scalded frog, but placing one in water at room temp, then after heating slowly till boiling, you'll have a frog who died sleepy and happy.


So how can the frog know it's in the soup?


How does a person know that in their life they are slowly being boiled away into an unrecognizable state? This is harder than the frog question and more complicated, and requires more honesty and self-awareness because we're often the ones turning on the burner!


Is it possible for a committed, devout believer evolve into a person of un-belief and rebellion? Are the safety nets in place enough to prevent that?

Yes. If the Gospel is ignored enough, life events can pull us out of our commitment, take away our belief and will.


Is it even possible for a weak mortal to reverse course based on idealogical supposition? Or must he/she go first to the brink and then, either fall over or turn back?

Yes, it's possible and requires continual repentence, or in other words, continually embracing the Gospel including letting go of whatever obstacles that hinder the embrace.


So, as a believer, do you ever ask yourself these questions? Where am I? Have I ignored the safety nets God has provided? Which ones?


Am I the happy, sleeping frog? If I'm in the warming pan, it's too big and complicated to heat nice and even. So where are the hot spots?


I think that, for most of us, life is the warming pan because it a constant source of enticement. While in this world, we have to hold on to ice cubes, we have to continually nurture our faith.


~~~


(I've asked the political version of this section in WP, but this is the personal take on it.)

[Thank you Troops]

This is a fascinating question. Very few people would say they want to commit suicide, but they will destroy their bodies through their lifestyles over many years of time. When in order to have a good clean long life one can follow the teachings of the Bible and go to church. Of course no guarantees of that but it proves valid in generalities.

[ROBERTENEAL]

You are in frog soup when you start thinking that God is obligated to conform to our way of doing things.

You are in frog soup when you start thinking that God is obligated to conform to human concepts of fairness.

You are in frog soup when you start thinking that the message of Jesus Christ crucified is only one of many ways to find reconciliation with God.

[TaylorW65]

You are in frog soup when you start thinking that the message of Jesus Christ crucified is only one of many ways to find reconciliation with God.

That is just not true. I know many many people who are living very spiritual lives and practice spiritual principles daily and their lives reflect how they are living.

[ROBERTENEAL]

That is just not true. I know many many people who are living very spiritual lives and practice spiritual principles daily and their lives reflect how they are living.


Genesis 3:5; "For God knows that in the day you eat of it yours eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Proverbs 14:12; "There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way of death."

1 Corinthians 1:18; "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God".

Acts 4:12; "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no name
under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".

But, you don't have to believe these verses if all you want out of life is to be "better" than the next guy, based on the "knowledge of good and evil' that we have all inherited.

All you have to do is "live a spiritual life, practice spiritual principles daily, and let your life reflect" the things you believe in, even if it means doing everything you can to ridicule the message of Jesus Christ crucified.

Maybe you will convince a lot of people that you are better than "those Bible totin' hypocrites".

In the long run, I think that you will find that you have staked your eternal destiny on the wrong philosophy. But what do I know?

[TaylorW65]

Genesis 3:5; "For God knows that in the day you eat of it yours eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Proverbs 14:12; "There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way of death."

1 Corinthians 1:18; "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God".

Acts 4:12; "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no name
under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".

But, you don't have to believe these verses if all you want out of life is to be "better" than the next guy, based on the "knowledge of good and evil' that we have all inherited.

All you have to do is "live a spiritual life, practice spiritual principles daily, and let your life reflect" the things you believe in, even if it means doing everything you can to ridicule the message of Jesus Christ crucified.

Maybe you will convince a lot of people that you are better than "those Bible totin' hypocrites".

In the long run, I think that you will find that you have staked your eternal destiny on the wrong philosophy. But what do I know?

I never claimed to be better than anyone. Also, you make Christianity sound like a theology test you will be graded on. You also act as if when a person stands before God and doesn't have the right concepts of him on their minds and the right religious beliefs coming from their lips God will give them a failing grade and will cast them off into all hell for eternity.

I don't ever remember Jesus saying we had to get our theology straight.

It is about a relationship with God. We cannot possibly conceive the infinite with our finite minds and I therefore have a hard time believing that God would require correct belief as a means of salvation. Our salvation is vested in God and all he asks of us is that we surrender our lives to him. It is our action of surrendering our will and our lives into the care of God is what he requires of us, and since there are as many spiritual and religious beliefs as there are people in the world we are all free to grow and explore those beliefs and change them and challenge them.

Therefore all religions and all spiritual beliefs can lead us into that relationship with the divine.

Saying we all must believe certain things or God will not accept us is a man made doctrine we use to judge and separate others with.

All who Love are born of God. God is transcendent of religion.

[ROBERTENEAL]

I never claimed to be better than anyone. Also, you make Christianity sound like a theology test you will be graded on. You also act as if when a person stands before God and doesn't have the right concepts of him on their minds and the right religious beliefs coming from their lips God will give them a failing grade and will cast them off into all hell for eternity.

I don't ever remember Jesus saying we had to get our theology straight.

It is about a relationship with God. We cannot possibly conceive the infinite with our finite minds and I therefore have a hard time believing that God would require correct belief as a means of salvation. Our salvation is vested in God and all he asks of us is that we surrender our lives to him. It is our action of surrendering our will and our lives into the care of God is what he requires of us, and since there are as many spiritual and religious beliefs as there are people in the world we are all free to grow and explore those beliefs and change them and challenge them.

Therefore all religions and all spiritual beliefs can lead us into that relationship with the divine.

Saying we all must believe certain things or God will not accept us is a man made doctrine we use to judge and separate others with.

All who Love are born of God. God is transcendent of religion.

I never claimed to be an expert on the hereafter. I can't, because I have never been there.

However, Jesus Christ either endured the cross of calvary, or He did not. He either shed His blood for a reason and a purpose, or He did not.

Jesus Christ either has unique qualifications (in Creation, redemption, provision, etc.) or He does not. He has either provided reconciliation by the blood of His cross or He has not.

If Jesus has done all of these things, then He is to respected accordingly. If He has not, then He has pulled off the deception of the ages.

If Jesus Christ actually pulled off the greatest deception in history, then why is His message so central to world history? Why has the Bible been the most circulated book in the world for centuries? Why is the gospel of Jesus Christ the most loved (and the most hated) message in the world?

Why is the spreading of the gospel approaching the point where it has been preached (and ridiculed) in all nations as per the prophecies of Jesus and the apostles? Why does it seem apparent that the nations of the world are in the process of forming an alliance against the homeland of the Bible, as per the words of Jesus and the prophets?

Are these things happening for natural reasons only? Or are there reasons that go beyond the natural realm that point to the validity of the claims of Christ; reasons that you can see right here and now; without making any presumptions about the hereafter.

Like I said, I have never been to Hereafter Land, and have never taken the "theology test" that you mention.

I can only look at the clues that I see in everyday life, in history, and in the news. I can only add up the evidence in my little old narrow mentality that "clings to guns and religion".

Don't believe me. Come to your own conclusions.

If you are determine to believe that Mohammed, Buddha , Matreya, Sun Myung Moon, and the rest of the gang are just as qualified as Jesus, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

[graatz]

If Jesus Christ actually pulled off the greatest deception in history, then why is His message so central to world history? Why has the Bible been the most circulated book in the world for centuries? Why is the gospel of Jesus Christ the most loved (and the most hated) message in the world?

:confused: I don't know what you mean by "His message [being] so central to world history"... There's actually quite a lot of world history that doesn't involve Christianity. The Chinese have a very fascinating history that extends well before the time of Christ, and the Chinese are very central even in world politics/economics today...

Why has the Bible been the most circulated book in the world for centuries? Modern mass-printing started with the Bible, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare it with any other publication. I'm also not so sure what this proves. If the Quaran overtakes the Bible as the most selling book of, say, 2010, are the Muslims suddenly right and the Christians suddenly wrong? :eh:

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the most loved and hated one in the World? What evidence do you have of this? Also, what does it prove? The Sermon on the Mount is pretty lovable, especially if you like the idea of the meek inheriting the Earth, but I'm not sure everyone who loves the idea of Jesus actually believes in His divinity. I'm not sure there are very many people who "hate" the gospel of Jesus Christ any more specifically than they do for the preachers and prophets of and and all religions. But even if they do, what does it prove that something makes people angry? Lots of things are able to make people angry...

[IndyBec]

That is just not true. I know many many people who are living very spiritual lives and practice spiritual principles daily and their lives reflect how they are living.

So, Taylor, how does one who is committed to those spiritual principles know if he/she is slowly distancing from them? How does one prevent that?

[TaylorW65]

I never claimed to be an expert on the hereafter. I can't, because I have never been there.

However, Jesus Christ either endured the cross of calvary, or He did not. He either shed His blood for a reason and a purpose, or He did not.

Jesus Christ either has unique qualifications (in Creation, redemption, provision, etc.) or He does not. He has either provided reconciliation by the blood of His cross or He has not.

If Jesus has done all of these things, then He is to respected accordingly. If He has not, then He has pulled off the deception of the ages.

If Jesus Christ actually pulled off the greatest deception in history, then why is His message so central to world history? Why has the Bible been the most circulated book in the world for centuries? Why is the gospel of Jesus Christ the most loved (and the most hated) message in the world?

Why is the spreading of the gospel approaching the point where it has been preached (and ridiculed) in all nations as per the prophecies of Jesus and the apostles? Why does it seem apparent that the nations of the world are in the process of forming an alliance against the homeland of the Bible, as per the words of Jesus and the prophets?

Are these things happening for natural reasons only? Or are there reasons that go beyond the natural realm that point to the validity of the claims of Christ; reasons that you can see right here and now; without making any presumptions about the hereafter.

Like I said, I have never been to Hereafter Land, and have never taken the "theology test" that you mention.

I can only look at the clues that I see in everyday life, in history, and in the news. I can only add up the evidence in my little old narrow mentality that "clings to guns and religion".

Don't believe me. Come to your own conclusions.

If you are determine to believe that Mohammed, Buddha , Matreya, Sun Myung Moon, and the rest of the gang are just as qualified as Jesus, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Those people you mentioned...are they just as qualified for what?

[ROBERTENEAL]

:confused: I don't know what you mean by "His message [being] so central to world history"... There's actually quite a lot of world history that doesn't involve Christianity. The Chinese have a very fascinating history that extends well before the time of Christ, and the Chinese are very central even in world politics/economics today...

Why has the Bible been the most circulated book in the world for centuries? Modern mass-printing started with the Bible, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare it with any other publication. I'm also not so sure what this proves. If the Quaran overtakes the Bible as the most selling book of, say, 2010, are the Muslims suddenly right and the Christians suddenly wrong? :eh:

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the most loved and hated one in the World? What evidence do you have of this? Also, what does it prove? The Sermon on the Mount is pretty lovable, especially if you like the idea of the meek inheriting the Earth, but I'm not sure everyone who loves the idea of Jesus actually believes in His divinity. I'm not sure there are very many people who "hate" the gospel of Jesus Christ any more specifically than they do for the preachers and prophets of and and all religions. But even if they do, what does it prove that something makes people angry? Lots of things are able to make people angry...

Of course. The Chinese went a long time without the Bible. The Chinese government is trying very hard to keep it that way.

But then, they don't want the Dali Lama to come back either.

Which poses a greater threat the current regime in China; the Dali Lama or Jesus?

[TaylorW65]

So, Taylor, how does one who is committed to those spiritual principles know if he/she is slowly distancing from them? How does one prevent that?

Nobody practices spiritual principles in isolation. That is why belonging to a community of faith is so important. It is through the mouths of others we often hear the voice of God. If we are thriving in our faith community then it will be with the help of others that will prevent ourselves from becoming distanced from those spiritual practices.

[graatz]

Which poses a greater threat the current regime in China; the Dali Lama or Jesus?

If the Chinese government hates them both equally, what does that do as far as proving your point? Also, does the Chinese government profess hatred in Jesus Christ? Or do they believe that Jesus never existed but Christianity is dangerous to them? Does this distinction change the point you are trying to make?

[ROBERTENEAL]

Those people you mentioned...are they just as qualified for what?

Colossians 1:15-20; is it about Jesus Christ? Or is it a blanket statement that applies to every religious guru that this world has ever produced?

1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

1:16 For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.

1:18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1:19 For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him;

1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.

[ROBERTENEAL]

If the Chinese government hates them both equally, what does that do as far as proving your point? Also, does the Chinese government profess hatred in Jesus Christ? Or do they believe that Jesus never existed but Christianity is dangerous to them? Does this distinction change the point you are trying to make?

I would think that the Chinese government would have more hatred for the thing that poses the greater threat. As I understand it, they blame the downfall of the Soviet Union on Christianity and they don't want the same thing to happen on their watch. The news clips of trackhoes tearing down churches in China I have watched lends credence to the notion that the Chinese govt. does not like Christianity, and I know a man who has been a missionary to China in recent years who says that smuggling Bibles into China is a risky business.

I believe that Jesus Christ existed and does exist, and continues to do what He said He would do. The Chinese regime apparently believe that Jesus is a fake, but poses a threat anyway, an even greater threat than the Dali Lama.

[TaylorW65]

Colossians 1:15-20; is it about Jesus Christ? Or is it a blanket statement that applies to every religious guru that this world has ever produced?

1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

1:16 For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.

1:18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1:19 For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him;

1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.


There is something you need to understand about me. I am a Christian Universalist. Christianity, as it is today, is a man-made exclusive religion. So if you are looking at this from a perspective of Christianity is right and all other faiths are wrong, that is not the way I see things.

The message of the universality of God, love, compassion, forgiveness, service, and surrender which Christ taught lived and died for is not exclusive to Christianity. It is found in all faiths and creeds. in other words the things of God and Christ are available to all just like the sunshine, the rainfall, the earth beneath our feet.

Is love compassion and forgiveness solely a Christian commodity? No it is not. The Practicing Hindu, the Buddhist and the Jew and Muslim are all capable of being Christ like. All who love are born of God.

It is man that has put boundaries on these things and have labeled it exclusive.

[graatz]

I would think that the Chinese government would have more hatred for the thing that poses the greater threat.

If the Chinese view Jesus Christ as a myth that may or may not have even been based on an actual person who had some stories about Him blown out of proportion, I doubt they view Him as a greater threat. Christianity and Christians are things that are pretty hard to deny exist. And if they hate anyone, or fear anyone, or view anyone as a threat, it's probably those things that they know to exist (believers and their establishments). But it seemed to me that your point hinged on people hating Jesus specifically, not His believers.

[ROBERTENEAL]

If the Chinese view Jesus Christ as a myth that may or may not have even been based on an actual person who had some stories about Him blown out of proportion, I doubt they view Him as a greater threat. Christianity and Christians are things that are pretty hard to deny exist. And if they hate anyone, or fear anyone, or view anyone as a threat, it's probably those things that they know to exist (believers and their establishments). But it seemed to me that your point hinged on people hating Jesus specifically, not His believers.

Jesus told His followers; "If they hated Me they will hate you". According to the Bible, hatred for Jesus and hatred for His followers amounts to approximately the same thing.

There are a lot of people who see Jesus as a myth who hate His gospel and His Church. The gospel of Christ is perceived as an enemy of science, logic, and progress because the people who promote the gospel are seen as stupid people who pose a threat to the advancement of civilization.

Of course it is possible to hate something that is perceived as a myth; and If you hate a message that you feel is deceiving people and doing damage to society in general, how are you going to feel about the people who promote this message that is the source of so much damage?

Hitler saw traditional Christianity as a myth and a threat to his agenda, so his propagandists invented a new "positive" Christianity that was complete with a Nordic Jesus.

The Third Reich hated something that they perceived as a myth, so they created a new myth to fill the minds of "the small people". The created a "frog soup" phenomena by trying to change the minds of the people in increments; from a Jewish Jesus, to a Nordic Jesus, to believing that Jesus wants all "real Christians" to persecute Jews.

Similar situation in North Korea, get rid of a perceived myth by producing a new myth. The North Korean govt. wants people to believe that there is no God, but they want you to believe that their illustrious leader was born on a sacred mountain that was enveloped in a double rainbow (in February) and that a swallow foretold his birth.

The Chinese have passed legislation about who the next Dalai Lama can be, about who is allowed to reincarnate.

You can't get away from myths. Myths can present a threat, and they are put to use for a lot of reasons.

[graatz]

Jesus told His followers; "If they hated Me they will hate you". According to the Bible, hatred for Jesus and hatred for His followers amounts to approximately the same thing.

If p then q doesn't mean if q then p. If for some reason I believed in the historicity of Jesus, and if for some reason I hated him, it doesn't even follow that I'll hate you. I might hate Jesus because I'm antisemitic and I just hate him on the principle of his lineage. So Jesus' "if p then q" is already a false premise. But you still can't derive from it that if I hate you then I hate him. I could hate you because I don't like people who post of the Hannity fourms, but that wouldn't mean that I hated Jesus, and hating you certainly doesn't imply that I even believe that Jesus existed--a pretty pivotal prerequisite for hating someone.

[smyrna]

How do you know you're in Frog Soup?

You hear somebody say, "Please pass the croackers"?:shifty:

[ROBERTENEAL]

If p then q doesn't mean if q then p. If for some reason I believed in the historicity of Jesus, and if for some reason I hated him, it doesn't even follow that I'll hate you. I might hate Jesus because I'm antisemitic and I just hate him on the principle of his lineage. So Jesus' "if p then q" is already a false premise. But you still can't derive from it that if I hate you then I hate him. I could hate you because I don't like people who post of the Hannity fourms, but that wouldn't mean that I hated Jesus, and hating you certainly doesn't imply that I even believe that Jesus existed--a pretty pivotal prerequisite for hating someone.

That is good logic, if you assume that Jesus is isolated from His followers.

I believe that the Spirit of Christ is in the world and still motivates the people who believe in Him to conform to His image.

If the Church of Christ really is the "Body of Christ", then comparing Jesus with His followers is not an "apples
vs. oranges" (or 'p' vs 'q') comparison. It is more like an apples to apples comparison. If you did not like the apples that were produced in Yakima, Washington last year, you will probably not like the apples that are produced in Yakima, Washington this year, either.

[graatz]

I believe that the Spirit of Christ is in the world and still motivates the people who believe in Him to conform to His image.

The only way for me to hate Jesus by hating you is if you are Jesus. I think that's a pretty sacrilegious claim to make...

Now, if you believe that you act like Jesus would, and that my hating you means that I probably would have hated Jesus, you are still only true by virtue of your subjective beliefs. If I don't believe that Jesus is a real person, and ergo don't believe that you could be acting like him, hating you is still just hating you. Also, I could hate a certain quality you possess (say, posting on Hannity), but not hate Jesus because that was demonstratively not one of his qualities (Hannity didn't exist in Jesus' time).

[ROBERTENEAL]

The only way for me to hate Jesus by hating you is if you are Jesus. I think that's a pretty sacrilegious claim to make...

Now, if you believe that you act like Jesus would, and that my hating you means that I probably would have hated Jesus, you are still only true by virtue of your subjective beliefs. If I don't believe that Jesus is a real person, and ergo don't believe that you could be acting like him, hating you is still just hating you. Also, I could hate a certain quality you possess (say, posting on Hannity), but not hate Jesus because that was demonstratively not one of his qualities (Hannity didn't exist in Jesus' time).

You can't learn enough about a person from this forum to know whether or not they act like Jesus.

But what do you experience in everyday life?

What are the characteristics of people you enjoy keeping company with?

Which group of people "rubs you the wrong way" the most?

If you can say that you actually accept everyone for who they are, regardless of whether or not they share your perspective, then you are exceptional. Maybe you are more disciplined emotionally and intellectually than most people.

Generally speaking, I think that there is a conflict between ideologies that is intense and will become more intense in the future. Part of the conflict is because of natural circumstances, but I think there is more to it than that.

I believe that there is also a battle going on the spiritual realm, I believe that this battle has an impact on humans; and the bottom line is Jesus vs His adversaries.

[graatz]

Which group of people "rubs you the wrong way" the most?

If you can say that you actually accept everyone for who they are, regardless of whether or not they share your perspective, then you are exceptional. Maybe you are more disciplined emotionally and intellectually than most people.

Well, I might be the wrong person to ask. I'm pretty easygoing with people. Some things irk me, but not just by virtue of the religions that they do or don't follow. I'd venture to say that most of my non-internet friends are theists.

[ROBERTENEAL]

Well, I might be the wrong person to ask. I'm pretty easygoing with people. Some things irk me, but not just by virtue of the religions that they do or don't follow. I'd venture to say that most of my non-internet friends are theists.

I think that most of my friends are crazy :eek:

[hben]

You've heard the tale of two frogs. Throw one in boiling water, and end up with a hopping scalded frog, but placing one in water at room temp, then after heating slowly till boiling, you'll have a frog who died sleepy and happy.


So how can the frog know it's in the soup?


How does a person know that in their life they are slowly being boiled away into an unrecognizable state? This is harder than the frog question and more complicated, and requires more honesty and self-awareness because we're often the ones turning on the burner!


Is it possible for a committed, devout believer evolve into a person of un-belief and rebellion? Are the safety nets in place enough to prevent that?

Yes. If the Gospel is ignored enough, life events can pull us out of our commitment, take away our belief and will.


Is it even possible for a weak mortal to reverse course based on idealogical supposition? Or must he/she go first to the brink and then, either fall over or turn back?

Yes, it's possible and requires continual repentence, or in other words, continually embracing the Gospel including letting go of whatever obstacles that hinder the embrace.


So, as a believer, do you ever ask yourself these questions? Where am I? Have I ignored the safety nets God has provided? Which ones?


Am I the happy, sleeping frog? If I'm in the warming pan, it's too big and complicated to heat nice and even. So where are the hot spots?


I think that, for most of us, life is the warming pan because it a constant source of enticement. While in this world, we have to hold on to ice cubes, we have to continually nurture our faith.


~~~


(I've asked the political version of this section in WP, but this is the personal take on it.)

In order for that to happen, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would all have to fall asleep on the job for days, weeks, months or years, or they woud have to go on an extended vacation. Frog's are too ignorant to stay out of boiling soup, but the Master Chef has promised to always be on guard in preparing His perfect meal, so as long as the frog has placed his complete trust in the Master Chef, he will be safe from eternal death in the boiler that has no water. :D

[RayMan]

In order for that to happen, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would all have to fall asleep on the job for days, weeks, months or years, or they woud have to go on an extended vacation. Frog's are too ignorant to stay out of boiling soup, but the Master Chef has promised to always be on guard in preparing His perfect meal, so as long as the frog has placed his complete trust in the Master Chef, he will be safe from eternal death in the boiler that has no water. :D

So basically what you are saying is that the frog's goose is cooked.

[hben]

How do you know you're in Frog Soup?

You hear somebody say, "Please pass the croackers"?:shifty:

Good one, Smyna.

BTW, not to worry...we never eat anything but the frog's legs anyway. I've never known anyone to eat the heart of the frog, and the heart is what the Master Chef has promised to keep securely in His hands. ;)

[hben]

So basically what you are saying is that the frog's goose is cooked.

Did I say that? Wow, I need to brush up on my communication skills...big time. :doh:

I thought I was saying that the frog will be just fine if he has trusted in the Master Chef who has already been boiled to death and buried, but came busting out of the grave on the third day. If I was unclear in my communicating that message, then it must be because I had a "frog" in my throat. :eh:

[IndyBec]

Good one, Smyna.

BTW, not to worry...we never eat anything but the frog's legs anyway. I've never known anyone to eat the heart of the frog, and the heart is what the Master Chef has promised to keep securely in His hands. ;)


I'm not worried about God going on vacation. The question is how us frogs can avoid distancing ourselves from God. But, I guess what you're implying is OSAS. Roger, that! :D

IMHO, frog legs are too little meat for the work. I'd rather have bread or an apple, and of course a glass of water. ;)

[hben]

I think that most of my friends are crazy :eek:

And all of my rowdy friends have settled down. :dance: :boohoo:

[ROBERTENEAL]

And all of my rowdy friends have settled down. :dance: :boohoo:

Being crazy (along with help from the Lord) has kept me and my rowdy friends from going insane.:angel:

[hben]

Being crazy (along with help from the Lord) has kept me and my rowdy friends from going insane.:angel:

I know what you mean. I love to get my friends together and have some good homemade chili, bbq or frog legs. :D

But I can honestly say, I've never tried "frog soup". My wife loves boiled pig feet though. :sick: :))

[hben]

That is just not true. I know many many people who are living very spiritual lives and practice spiritual principles daily and their lives reflect how they are living.

I think Robert's point was that Jesus is the only way...not just one way of many, and THAT is true no matter what we believe or how we live.

BTW, what did you mean in your last comment?

...their lives reflect how they are living.

Doesn't everyone's life reflect how he lives? Life is living, and living is life...isn't it? Or am I missing something? :confused: :doh:

[TaylorW65]

I think Robert's point was that Jesus is the only way...not just one way of many, and THAT is true no matter what we believe or how we live.

Here is a paradox for you. Yes i believe Jesus is the only way to the father. However, I don't believe the Christian Religion is the only way to the father.

I see Jesus separately from this man made religion that sprang up about him.

BTW, what did you mean in your last comment?

Doesn't everyone's life reflect how he lives? Life is living, and living is life...isn't it? Or am I missing something? :confused: :doh:

My last comment needs to be seen in the light of those who say Christianity is the only way. I know many people from different faiths who would not label themselves Christians who display the fruits of the spirit more than some Christians I know.

Here is a little story. I was once talking to a person I have known since I was 14 (I'm now 45) and he is one of the most devout Christians I know, it is all he talks about. One day we were talking about something, I can't remember what, but I gave him my spiritual advice on the topic and he marveled at my wisdom. But what he did not know was that my wisdom came from my Buddhists friends! All I did was translate my words into his Christian understanding. But I never told him the source because I knew he would reject it.

I am a Christian Universalist and a very liberal one at that. I see Jesus and his teachings and his life much like I see the air we breath and the water on the earth and the ground beneath our feet. It belongs to all of us. Love, compassion, forgiveness, long suffering, the fruits of the spirit do not belong to the Christian Religion alone. They are found in all faiths.

Love is not only a Christian commodity.

So, I Jesus in more of a transcendent way.

[hben]

Here is a paradox for you. Yes i believe Jesus is the only way to the father. However, I don't believe the Christian Religion is the only way to the father.

I see Jesus separately from this man made religion that sprang up about him.



My last comment needs to be seen in the light of those who say Christianity is the only way. I know many people from different faiths who would not label themselves Christians who display the fruits of the spirit more than some Christians I know.

Here is a little story. I was once talking to a person I have known since I was 14 (I'm now 45) and he is one of the most devout Christians I know, it is all he talks about. One day we were talking about something, I can't remember what, but I gave him my spiritual advice on the topic and he marveled at my wisdom. But what he did not know was that my wisdom came from my Buddhists friends! All I did was translate my words into his Christian understanding. But I never told him the source because I knew he would reject it.

I am a Christian Universalist and a very liberal one at that. I see Jesus and his teachings and his life much like I see the air we breath and the water on the earth and the ground beneath our feet. It belongs to all of us. Love, compassion, forgiveness, long suffering, the fruits of the spirit do not belong to the Christian Religion alone. They are found in all faiths.

Love is not only a Christian commodity.

So, I Jesus in more of a transcendent way.

So you don't believe that a person needs to accept and believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God is necessary for a person to be saved? If that is the case, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross, and rise from the grave? Why didn't He just tell everyone to love one another and go on back to heaven without all the rest of the pain and suffering?

[TaylorW65]

So you don't believe that a person needs to accept and believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God is necessary for a person to be saved? If that is the case, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross, and rise from the grave? Why didn't He just tell everyone to love one another and go on back to heaven without all the rest of the pain and suffering?

I believe what Jesus did was through his death and burial and resurrection the debt for our sins was paid in full. We don't have to believe it in order to be saved. Jesus did the saving...period. That is why salvation is a free gift.

In other words, the debt was paid for all of humanity and that was what God required of us Jesus. I don't think that God placed a second requirement of having to believe in what Jesus did in order for people to be covered. That is placing salvation back into the hands of man.
We can be so unstable. We can believe one day and have doubts on the next day. God forbid we should die on a day we have doubts!

Jesus told us to have faith in him. Not to have faith as in if it is a currency by which we purchase salvation, or that we must have faith in him in order to be saved No, Jesus wants us to have faith in him because he has already saved us.

[hben]

I believe what Jesus did was through his death and burial and resurrection the debt for our sins was paid in full. We don't have to believe it in order to be saved. Jesus did the saving...period. That is why salvation is a free gift.

In other words, the debt was paid for all of humanity and that was what God required of us Jesus. I don't think that God placed a second requirement of having to believe in what Jesus did in order for people to be covered. That is placing salvation back into the hands of man.
We can be so unstable. We can believe one day and have doubts on the next day. God forbid we should die on a day we have doubts!

Jesus told us to have faith in him. Not to have faith as in if it is a currency by which we purchase salvation, or that we must have faith in him in order to be saved No, Jesus wants us to have faith in him because he has already saved us.

There is only two things wrong with your idea of salvation. First, the scriptures talk a lot about believing in Jesus Christ for it not to have anything to do with salvation, and second, if Jesus saved everyone in the whole world, then there is no reason for the gospel to be preached or for anyone to believe it. None of it makes sense if everyone is just saved automatically.

[TaylorW65]

There is only two things wrong with your idea of salvation. First, the scriptures talk a lot about believing in Jesus Christ for it not to have anything to do with salvation, and second, if Jesus saved everyone in the whole world, then there is no reason for the gospel to be preached or for anyone to believe it. None of it makes sense if everyone is just saved automatically.

Answer these questions. Is belief a qualitative or quantitative issue?

Do we have to put our faith in what Jesus did or do are we required to believe certain thing about Jesus for salvation?

Do you have to believe in the miracles Jesus performed?

Do you have to believe in the trinity?

Is there a difference between faith and belief?


As far as preaching the Gospel, I think the world need to hear that Jesus has restored humanities relationship with God. The good news of the Gospel is not just about salvation and where one is going to spend eternity. Jesus taught much about life and how we need to live a God centered life loving God and our neighbor. There is much to his message that needs to be preached.

[hben]

Answer these questions. Is belief a qualitative or quantitative issue?

Do we have to put our faith in what Jesus did or do are we required to believe certain thing about Jesus for salvation?

You can't separate what Christ did, and who He was and is. He is every believer's personal Savior, because He died on the cross to pay for the sins of the world.

Do you have to believe in the miracles Jesus performed?

If you reject them after professing Jesus as Savior, I would question whether you really know Him.

Do you have to believe in the trinity?

This doctrine is one that theologians don't even understand, so no, I wouldn't expect a small child to understand it to be saved.

Is there a difference between faith and belief?

No, they come from some form of the Greek root word which is pistis, pistos or pisteuo.

As far as preaching the Gospel, I think the world need to hear that Jesus has restored humanities relationship with God. The good news of the Gospel is not just about salvation and where one is going to spend eternity. Jesus taught much about life and how we need to live a God centered life loving God and our neighbor. There is much to his message that needs to be preached.

The simple gospel message salvation is all about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but I agree that His teachings need to be taught to those who have been saved in order for them to grow in His grace.

[TaylorW65]

You can't separate what Christ did, and who He was and is. He is every believer's personal Savior, because He died on the cross to pay for the sins of the world.

I have read many books by Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan who have done just that. Separated the historical Jesus from the Jesus as presented in the Bible.

If you reject them after professing Jesus as Savior, I would question whether you really know Him.

To me salvation is not about "saying the magic words" and asking Jesus into your heart. Salvation to me is more about this life than the next.

This doctrine is one that theologians don't even understand, so no, I wouldn't expect a small child to understand it to be saved.

I can agree with that.

No, they come from some form of the Greek root word which is pistis, pistos or pisteuo.

Faith is simple trust.

The simple gospel message salvation is all about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but I agree that His teachings need to be taught to those who have been saved in order for them to grow in His grace.

One of the reasons I walked away from Fundamentalist Christianity is that I need a practical spirituality that can help in living life today. So much of Christianity is so future focused or outwardly focused that it didn't address, and doesn't address many of the day to day problems and issues most people face.

Truthfully I have known so many people would had their theological ducks in a row yet their personal lives were a mess. Oh, sure they were going to heaven but they were not living life now.

[hben]

I have read many books by Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan who have done just that. Separated the historical Jesus from the Jesus as presented in the Bible.

Never heard of either of them or what they have written.

To me salvation is not about "saying the magic words" and asking Jesus into your heart. Salvation to me is more about this life than the next.

Salvation is about life with Jesus from the moment a person trusts Him throughout eternity. Considering this life is but a moment in time compared to eternity, I certainly can't agree that it is more about this life than the next though I don't disagree that it is about this life as the beginning.

I can agree with that.

Good.

Faith is simple trust.

I have never said otherwise.

One of the reasons I walked away from Fundamentalist Christianity is that I need a practical spirituality that can help in living life today. So much of Christianity is so future focused or outwardly focused that it didn't address, and doesn't address many of the day to day problems and issues most people face.

I have never had that problem. I have yet to find a problem in life that Christ can't handle.

Truthfully I have known so many people would had their theological ducks in a row yet their personal lives were a mess. Oh, sure they were going to heaven but they were not living life now.

Life is full of ducks...some in a row...and others trying to fly away. The good news is that Christ can handle ducks no matter where or how straight they waddle or fly. :D

[TaylorW65]

Never heard of either of them or what they have written.



Salvation is about life with Jesus from the moment a person trusts Him throughout eternity. Considering this life is but a moment in time compared to eternity, I certainly can't agree that it is more about this life than the next though I don't disagree that it is about this life as the beginning.



Good.



I have never said otherwise.



I have never had that problem. I have yet to find a problem in life that Christ can't handle.



Life is full of ducks...some in a row...and others trying to fly away. The good news is that Christ can handle ducks no matter where or how straight they waddle or fly. :D

Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan are both very liberal authors and writers on the Bible and Jesus.

Here is some info on them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dominic_Crossan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Borg

[hben]

Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan are both very liberal authors and writers on the Bible and Jesus.

Here is some info on them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dominic_Crossan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Borg

I will try to check them out when I have time, but if they are liberal authors, I doubt that they will have much to say that I agree with. At least that is usually the case considering that I would probably be considered a fundamentalist or a conservative Christian in most of their circles in my approach to biblical interpretation not to mention life itself.

[TaylorW65]

I will try to check them out when I have time, but if they are liberal authors, I doubt that they will have much to say that I agree with. At least that is usually the case considering that I would probably be considered a fundamentalist or a conservative Christian in most of their circles in my approach to biblical interpretation not to mention life itself.

You probably would not like them then. But given them a try, they at least will make you think.

[hben]

You probably would not like them then. But given them a try, they at least will make you think.

Even Reagan's Bullwinkle imitation is making me think, so any brain exercise will be a good thing. :D

[TaylorW65]

Even Reagan's Bullwinkle imitation is making me think, so any brain exercise will be a good thing. :D

I like that picture because it reminds me to stay lighthearted on this forum and keep a sense of humor. It demonstrates that even presidents with all the seriousness of their job could still be very human and have a wonderful sense of humor.

[hben]

I like that picture because it reminds me to stay lighthearted on this forum and keep a sense of humor. It demonstrates that even presidents with all the seriousness of their job could still be very human and have a wonderful sense of humor.

Any successful political leader needs a good sense of humor, so as not to take himself or other politicians too seriously.

[ROBERTENEAL]

Any successful political leader needs a good sense of humor, so as not to take himself or other politicians too seriously.

Obama tries to act like he has a sense of humor. Ya gotta give the guy an 'E' for effort, I suppose. :neutral:

[hben]

Obama tries to act like he has a sense of humor. Ya gotta give the guy an 'E' for effort, I suppose. :neutral:

If I was in his shoes, I'd be trying to laugh every chance I got...to keep from crying. And I guess I will give him an "E" but not for effort. I give him an "E" for enormous...as in debt. :eek:

[ROBERTENEAL]

If I was in his shoes, I'd be trying to laugh every chance I got...to keep from crying. And I guess I will give him an "E" but not for effort. I give him an "E" for enormous...as in debt. :eek:

E for Enormous, as in it won't go away, no matter who his successors are for the next few decades.

[hben]

E for Enormous, as in it won't go away, no matter who his successors are for the next few decades.

The antichrist will have to go into miracle overtime just to break even with President Hope N. Change's U.S. credit card bill. :doh: