I have some questions for an honest Liberal.

[ben41281]

What percentage of my income is enough? How much should I have to pay in taxes? What percentage? Can one honest liberal answer those questions? Are there honest liberals? Are there liberals that have actually paid their taxes? It seems a lot of them have no problem raising our taxes, but they sure seem to have a hard time paying their taxes. Why?


I know there are no liberals, that will honestyly answer these questions. But, I had to try.

[ben41281]

One more question.

Why do you not support all the rights spelled out by the constitution? Because, all too many on your side of the isle seem to think that it's O.K. to limmit some of those rights. I.E. the Fairness Doctrine and gun control, just to name two issues.

[grodge]

My tax professor in law school opened the first class by saying the tax code is written so that everything first belongs to the gov't and then tells us how much they will us have. The libs take this seriously. If we all live in a shack and eat rice and beans for every meal then we have been given the correct amount. He got a laugh but now I am beginning to wonder.

[shunted]

What percentage of my income is enough? How much should I have to pay in taxes? What percentage? Can one honest liberal answer those questions? Are there honest liberals? Are there liberals that have actually paid their taxes? It seems a lot of them have no problem raising our taxes, but they sure seem to have a hard time paying their taxes. Why?


I know there are no liberals, that will honestyly answer these questions. But, I had to try.

When your starting point is as vituperative as yours it isn't fruitful.

No, there are no honest liberals. Every liberal is a liar and....well so is every non-liberal. Everyone has told a lie at some point so, strictly speaking, there are no honest liberals or conservatives for that matter.

Obviously there are liberals who have paid their taxes. It's a foolish question to ask this.

Clearly, the answer to the first three questions depends on how much money you make. Complex problems, like funding the government of a nation as large as ours, aren't always simple.

Reducing political discourse to, "liberals aren't honest" or "have any liberals paid taxes" makes you look crazy.

[ben41281]

When your starting point is as vituperative as yours it isn't fruitful.

No, there are no honest liberals.

Really? Most won't even admit they are liberal!



Every liberal is a liar and....

Well, we finaly have the truth!





well so is every non-liberal. Everyone has told a lie at some point so, strictly speaking, there are no honest liberals or conservatives for that matter.

This point is great, don't answer any questions just deflect them! Real great. I was asking serious questions, looking for honest answers.






Obviously there are liberals who have paid their taxes. It's a foolish question to ask this.

Can Obama find some of them to work in his administration? So far 4 of his picks, have "tax issues"!





Clearly, the answer to the first three questions depends on how much money you make.

Really? I'm currently paying aproximately 56% of my income to the state, fed, and local governments. Is that enough? Or would you like 100% or 70%? It shouldn't matter how much I make vs the guy in the house down the street, seems to me to be very simple. If you really want us to all pay our "fair share" there should be a flat tax! So what percentage of your income are you willing to part with?



Complex problems, like funding the government of a nation as large as ours, aren't always simple.

And it's getting larger and larger, by the day! How much of what the government does, is unconstitutional? The vast majority of what goes on in D.C. IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!



Reducing political discourse to, "liberals aren't honest" or "have any liberals paid taxes" makes you look crazy.

Sorry I had to put a little sarcasim in my original post, I should have known better libs don't have a sense of humor!

[Fed up in NH]

What percentage of my income is enough? How much should I have to pay in taxes? What percentage? Can one honest liberal answer those questions? Are there honest liberals? Are there liberals that have actually paid their taxes? It seems a lot of them have no problem raising our taxes, but they sure seem to have a hard time paying their taxes. Why?


I know there are no liberals, that will honestyly answer these questions. But, I had to try.
I will repeat a previous supposition......If I make a million dollars, and pay 250,000 in taxes and you make 100,000 and pay 25,000 in taxes, who is contributing more toward the funding of the US? Additionally, I am paying significantly more in state & local taxes, and as I spend & invest my discretionary income, more in sales, excise & capital gains taxes.

I'm not breathing more air than you, my kids are not taking up more space at school than yours, and since I can only drive one car at a time, I'm no more of a burden to the road system. It's not costing the government more to defend me than you, and I would argue that there is much more of a trickle down effect from my spending than from yours. So explain why my paying 10 times what you pay in taxes is not fair to you!

[ben41281]

I will repeat a previous supposition......If I make a million dollars, and pay 250,000 in taxes and you make 100,000 and pay 25,000 in taxes, who is contributing more toward the funding of the US? Additionally, I am paying significantly more in state & local taxes, and as I spend & invest my discretionary income, more in sales, excise & capital gains taxes.

I'm not breathing more air than you, my kids are not taking up more space at school than yours, and since I can only drive one car at a time, I'm no more of a burden to the road system. It's not costing the government more to defend me than you, and I would argue that there is much more of a trickle down effect from my spending than from yours. So explain why my paying 10 times what you pay in taxes is not fair to you!

EXACTLY! That's why I think we need a flat tax! I prefer the fair tax, but a flat tax would be far better than what we have right now. Between fed, state, and local taxes alone I currently pay about 56% of my income to one tax or another. Not including all the "fees" (read tax) to do business in this state. And I've stated it several times in other threads, trickle down works in both good and bad ways. If my taxes (read costs) are lower I pass that on to my customers, if they are higher I also pass that on to my customers. So, as those taxes get raised on us evil rich people, you'll be paying more too!

[Haplo]

Sorry I had to put a little sarcasim in my original post, I should have known better libs don't have a sense of humor!<emphasis mine> What do you expect when you deliberatly make a condesending post? :doh:

Your thread shows ou're not looking for serious debate, just taking an opportunity to bash eeeeeeevil liberals.

[ben41281]

<emphasis mine> What do you expect when you deliberatly make a condesending post? :doh:

Your thread shows ou're not looking for serious debate, just taking an opportunity to bash eeeeeeevil liberals.

So, you won't answer the question will you? Why do libs never want to answer the simple question? How much of my income do you think the government should take? What percentage? If you can't handle a joke, you might want to point the finger at some of your own. Libs have joked about shooting Pres. Bush on numerous accounts, and libs maade excuses that it was just a joke. Libs made jokes about the former V.P. on numeruos accounts.

How about just answering my questions? Are you affraid we might see you for what you are?

[shunted]

I will repeat a previous supposition......If I make a million dollars, and pay 250,000 in taxes and you make 100,000 and pay 25,000 in taxes, who is contributing more toward the funding of the US? Additionally, I am paying significantly more in state & local taxes, and as I spend & invest my discretionary income, more in sales, excise & capital gains taxes.

I'm not breathing more air than you, my kids are not taking up more space at school than yours, and since I can only drive one car at a time, I'm no more of a burden to the road system. It's not costing the government more to defend me than you, and I would argue that there is much more of a trickle down effect from my spending than from yours. So explain why my paying 10 times what you pay in taxes is not fair to you!

You are paying more in absolute dollars. The question comes down to what is the most equitable tax policy. Should we have a tax structure where everyone pays the same amount of tax or the same rate or some other system?

Right now the U.S. spends around $1 trillion a year for nationalized defense. (This includes the CIA, NSA, etc.) There are roughly 300 million people living in the country. The labor force of the country is about 150 million. This means that whatever the tax structure is about 150 million people are free loading bums - they mostly don't have any money to tax. (Too bad child labor has been outlawed!)

So, we have 150 million people paying for nationalized defense and yet everyone is equally protected (damn Constitution). This isn't fair. I pay a lot more in tax than a majority of the population. (My income is above the median income and don't have child exemptions so my tax is probably more than half of what the people who do work pay. And children don't pay anything.)

According to the logic of those who advocate a flat tax (not flat tax rate) this is grotesquely unfair. I guess what should be done is that children be assessed taxes but have these taxes deferred until they get a job. I supposed the adults who can't find work should be placed into forced labor since they are enjoying the benefits of nationalized defense but aren't paying their fair share. (Damn Constitution gets in the way here too.)

According to the flat tax rate people those who do work should be taxed the same percent of their income regarding of how much they make. Suppose that this number is 30%. (I don't know what this number is but I suspect is much higher than 10% since in 2007 we had a large deficit and the tax rates currently are higher than 10%. )

Let's assume a person needs $1500 a month in order to live. This means that a person making $24,000 per year won't make enough money to pay for rent, food, utilities, transportation, and their tax burden for national defense.

Well, that's a problem. There is now no reason for a person making $24,000 to work. (Maybe a higher minimum wage would be appropriate in this case but that sort of socialist economics won't fly.) So, either wages will have to be set, by law, to such a level that people do low paying work have an incentive to work or.....maybe a progressive tax system should be put in place.

Another way to look at a progressive tax structure is that the very wealthy have much more to lose if the terrorists win so they should be willing to pay a higher percent of their wealth for the protection. There is also the fact that a 50% tax on someone making $1 million is a much less of a burden than for someone making $20,000.

We live in a society and the 'every man for himself' mentality doesn't work. Shared burdens is the way to go and those who are fortunate enough to have the very high paying jobs should no be so selfish and greedy that they are unwilling to part with a higher percent of it.

[shunted]

This point is great, don't answer any questions just deflect them! Real great. I was asking serious questions, looking for honest answers.


I did answer the question. You asked if there were any honest liberals and I said no. I also mentioned that there weren't any honest conservatives as well.

I answered other questions as well but it is easier to just spout out trite phrases like, "libs never tell the truth" than to engage in real discourse. So continue the vacuous diatribe.....

[ben41281]

I did answer the question. You asked if there were any honest liberals and I said no. I also mentioned that there weren't any honest conservatives as well.

My point was, are you willing to give an honest answer to the following question. How much (give percentage) of my income should the government have the right to take? But, you won't answer it. I wounder why?





I answered other questions as well but it is easier to just spout out trite phrases like, "libs never tell the truth" than to engage in real discourse. So continue the vacuous diatribe.....

Me thinks you protest a bit too much! I must have hit close to the mark!

[Haplo]

So, you won't answer the question will you? Why do libs never want to answer the simple question? How much of my income do you think the government should take? What percentage? If you can't handle a joke, you might want to point the finger at some of your own. Libs have joked about shooting Pres. Bush on numerous accounts, and libs maade excuses that it was just a joke. Libs made jokes about the former V.P. on numeruos accounts.

How about just answering my questions? Are you affraid we might see you for what you are? I'm not a lib so can't take your bait...I mean answer your questions

Even if I was a lib I still wouldn't answer as your op doesn't come across as a sincere desire for discussion.

Do two wrongs make a right? Do unto others as they have done unto you? :boohoo:

[Nick In Mo]

Yes, there are Honest Liberals.

My point I want to make to you:
If the stock market crash can be blamed on Obama like you point out every day, over and over again, then using the same logic you have to come to that conclusion, the attacks of 9/11 are Bush's fault. Please for your innocent listeners sake be HONEST with yourself and with your listeners.

[Nick In Mo]

Ok Sean, under the same principal as *your* tax plan i.e. those who don't want to work, can't work and putting children to work or deferring their taxes untill they do work.

If you don't want to help pay for the maintaining of our atmosphere and the quality of the air DON'T BREATHE, or we could just take back all of the air you have used and take from you the air you would use in the future. How does that sound

[Nick In Mo]

[quote=ben41281;50279421]My point was, are you willing to give an honest answer to the following question. How much (give percentage) of my income should the government have the right to take? But, you won't answer it. I wounder why?

How much of everyone elses oxygen should you be allowed to consume? As much as it takes to sustain your life I asume

[ben41281]

[quote=ben41281;50279421]My point was, are you willing to give an honest answer to the following question. How much (give percentage) of my income should the government have the right to take? But, you won't answer it. I wounder why?

How much of everyone elses oxygen should you be allowed to consume? As much as it takes to sustain your life I asume


Since when do we describe OXYGEN, as belonging to one person or another? Are you suggesting that my income doesn't actually belong to me? It seems we have discovered the problem!

[Amallek]

The only honest liberal was Jesus, and he has an answer for your question.

"You lack one thing; go, sell what own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." Mark 10:20

As to paying taxes: "Give to the Emperor the things that are the Emperor's and to God the things that are God's". (Matthew 22:21)

So the answer to your question, I believe, is whatever the government wants. It does not matter to me because my reward is not of this world.

[ben41281]

The only honest liberal was Jesus, and he has an answer for your question.

"You lack one thing; go, sell what own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." Mark 10:20

As to paying taxes: "Give to the Emperor the things that are the Emperor's and to God the things that are God's". (Matthew 22:21)

So the answer to your question, I believe, is whatever the government wants. It does not matter to me because my reward is not of this world.

So if the government told you to give 100% of your income to the government, you would? What would you live off of? How would you support your family? Or would you simply do like so many others, and sucke off the teet of government?

[ben41281]

The only honest liberal was Jesus, and he has an answer for your question.


Jesus, spoke an awfull lot about personal responsibility. And, doing things for others. He did not advocate the government taking wealth! He was most likely not a liberal! Liberals, want government to take your wealth, and redistribute it. Jesus, told us to be charitable, out of the kindness of our hearts not for fear of jail time!





"You lack one thing; go, sell what own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." Mark 10:20


? What does this have to do with the thread? We are talking taxes, not theology. If you wish to talk theology, can I suggest the religion threads.




As to paying taxes: "Give to the Emperor the things that are the Emperor's and to God the things that are God's". (Matthew 22:21)

How much (percentage) should either get? Normal "religous" Americans, give about 5-10% to their church. So, how much should we give to government? Again, if 10% is good enough for God, is it not good enought for government?





So the answer to your question, I believe, is whatever the government wants. It does not matter to me because my reward is not of this world.

So, if the government said you had to pay 100% of your income? You would have no problem with that? Yeah right!

[jackson Mill]

You are paying more in absolute dollars. The question comes down to what is the most equitable tax policy. Should we have a tax structure where everyone pays the same amount of tax or the same rate or some other system?

Right now the U.S. spends around $1 trillion a year for nationalized defense. (This includes the CIA, NSA, etc.) There are roughly 300 million people living in the country. The labor force of the country is about 150 million. This means that whatever the tax structure is about 150 million people are free loading bums - they mostly don't have any money to tax. (Too bad child labor has been outlawed!)

So, we have 150 million people paying for nationalized defense and yet everyone is equally protected (damn Constitution). This isn't fair. I pay a lot more in tax than a majority of the population. (My income is above the median income and don't have child exemptions so my tax is probably more than half of what the people who do work pay. And children don't pay anything.)

According to the logic of those who advocate a flat tax (not flat tax rate) this is grotesquely unfair. I guess what should be done is that children be assessed taxes but have these taxes deferred until they get a job. I supposed the adults who can't find work should be placed into forced labor since they are enjoying the benefits of nationalized defense but aren't paying their fair share. (Damn Constitution gets in the way here too.)

According to the flat tax rate people those who do work should be taxed the same percent of their income regarding of how much they make. Suppose that this number is 30%. (I don't know what this number is but I suspect is much higher than 10% since in 2007 we had a large deficit and the tax rates currently are higher than 10%. )

Let's assume a person needs $1500 a month in order to live. This means that a person making $24,000 per year won't make enough money to pay for rent, food, utilities, transportation, and their tax burden for national defense.

Well, that's a problem. There is now no reason for a person making $24,000 to work. (Maybe a higher minimum wage would be appropriate in this case but that sort of socialist economics won't fly.) So, either wages will have to be set, by law, to such a level that people do low paying work have an incentive to work or.....maybe a progressive tax system should be put in place.

Another way to look at a progressive tax structure is that the very wealthy have much more to lose if the terrorists win so they should be willing to pay a higher percent of their wealth for the protection. There is also the fact that a 50% tax on someone making $1 million is a much less of a burden than for someone making $20,000.

We live in a society and the 'every man for himself' mentality doesn't work. Shared burdens is the way to go and those who are fortunate enough to have the very high paying jobs should no be so selfish and greedy that they are unwilling to part with a higher percent of it.


Why has the conversation over looked this statement? Too logical to combat?

[slackkeymike]

I am a conservative, but I am taken back by your approach. Parsing questions and especially answers is rude.

Really? Most won't even admit they are liberal!





Well, we finaly have the truth!







This point is great, don't answer any questions just deflect them! Real great. I was asking serious questions, looking for honest answers.








Can Obama find some of them to work in his administration? So far 4 of his picks, have "tax issues"!







Really? I'm currently paying aproximately 56% of my income to the state, fed, and local governments. Is that enough? Or would you like 100% or 70%? It shouldn't matter how much I make vs the guy in the house down the street, seems to me to be very simple. If you really want us to all pay our "fair share" there should be a flat tax! So what percentage of your income are you willing to part with?





And it's getting larger and larger, by the day! How much of what the government does, is unconstitutional? The vast majority of what goes on in D.C. IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!





Sorry I had to put a little sarcasim in my original post, I should have known better libs don't have a sense of humor!

[whig]

According to the constitution, Taxes are supposed to be levied on profit and gain. Income taxes are therefore unconstitutional because they imply that your labor is worth nothing, it is 100% profit. The framers of the constitution had a progressive tax system in mind. If you make a huge amount of money on anything that you buy low and sell high, then a tax should be associated with that transaction. As far as a percentage, the less the federal government provides, the lower that percentage will be. We have to be prepared to rid ourselves of anything with the word public, as well as the universal health care plan we have in this country called medicare. Social Security would also be eliminated. We would also return to well regulated local militia's. Given these conditions, and strict control on defense spending, we could probably strictly tax profit and gain at 25%.

[Residential Bob]

I have some questions for an honest Liberal.You'll just have to settle for a liberal.

[whig]

I don't think my post hides the fact that I am a libertarian.

[Post Toastee]

the question was how much is enough? hard to say...

Considering that this nations middle class was built when the top tax rate was 90% (it helped greatly that we didnt outsource all our jobs and manufacturing), and that since Reagan cut that in more than half (well, it was around 70% when he came in) one can probably draw a correlation between these factors and the incredibly bad situation we are in now.

Although to be fair, the absurd spending the past 8 yrs to include the war, didnt help much.

I am a liberal and this year I paid more in taxes than double the median income, but I am probably the only liberal to pay taxes...wait, that cant be right...