We will never defeat Afghan insurgents

[Gengar]

So why is Obama going to send more of our troops to Afghanistan, putting their lives in danger needlessly?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03/obama-harper-ca.html

Remember way back in the early days of the Obama administration when the president went to Canada on his first foreign trip and as soon as Afghanistan came up in the concluding news conference, the well-briefed new U.S. leader pre-empted a key question by saying he had not asked Prime Minister Stephen Harper for more Canadian troops?

Good thing.

Because, as it turns out, Prime Minister Harper thinks victory for the allies in Afghanistan is simply not going to happen. In a fasA US soldier in Afghanistancinating and surprisingly candid interview with CNN's ever-thoughtful Fareed Zakaria on "GPS," here's what the leader of the United States' closest military ally there said:

"In fact, my own judgment, Fareed, is, quite frankly, we are not going to ever defeat the insurgency."

Coming just days after Obama ordered 17,000 additional U.S. combat troops into that forever-fighting land as a mere holding action, pending further study and possible additional deployments, that's got to be a stunner to the new White House team.

Americans historically have not taken well to not winning wars. The dreaded Q word (quagmire) came up even during the relatively brief fighting of 2001-02.

[drock]

if you believe that you are all idiots.afghanistan went south when nato said they could take over.if we send more US troops in we will win there like iraq

[Gengar]

Afghanistan is not Iraq.

[drock]

Afghanistan is not Iraq.
no **** but when we send a surge in we will win

[ArmyMAJretired]

I remember the good old days for Dems, when Iraq was a quagmire and we couldn't win.

Has Harry Reid apologized yet?

[drock]

I remember the good old days for Dems, when Iraq was a quagmire and we couldn't win.

Has Harry Reid apologized yet?
have you ever heard a liberal apologize

[Gengar]

A surge won't work in Afghanistan. Afghanistan literally has no industry... no economy (sans opium), no commerce. Nothing.

[RedStatePaPa]

So why are we there then?

[Gengar]

So why are we there then?

Exactly. Seriously... it's time we re-thought what the heck we are doing there... Obama wants to send more troops. To do what exactly? They will just become targets. More troops in Afghanistan = more targets.

The thing with Iraq... it's people are advanced, as far as standards go for the region... But Afghanistan? Not so much.

[The Bos'un]

lets pull out right now.... it is a lost cause and opens us up for attacks.

In regards to 9/11
Prince Al Waleed ibn Talal ibn Abdulaziz al Saud toured the ruins with the mayor. But he later issued a written statement that angered Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

“Our Palestinian brethren continue to be slaughtered at the hands of the Israelis while the world turns the other cheek,” Al Waleed said. “At times like this one, we must address some of the issues that led to the criminal attack.”Lets see, this was after 8 years of bill clinton's presidency (8 months and a few days into GWB's. He had not done much of anything yet (at that time)).

[The Bos'un]

By the way, SARCASM OFF.

[fredeasy]

no **** but when we send a surge in we will win

You sure it had nothing to do with C-130s being filled to the brim with tax payer dollars and then handed out daily as a bribe not to fight? Hell I could solve all the crime in Washington D.C. if you give me 200 million cash. I am just going to walk up to every criminal and offer him 50k a day to just stay home and not rob people. I mean that is a real solution right?

[fredeasy]

A surge won't work in Afghanistan. Afghanistan literally has no industry... no economy (sans opium), no commerce. Nothing.

They seemed to have a pretty nice little starter society before the Soviets put them into their sphere of influence.

[fredeasy]

Exactly. Seriously... it's time we re-thought what the heck we are doing there... Obama wants to send more troops. To do what exactly? They will just become targets. More troops in Afghanistan = more targets.

The thing with Iraq... it's people are advanced, as far as standards go for the region... But Afghanistan? Not so much.

But they are both lightyears behind a place like Detroit where you can pick up a house for 18k. Afghanistan's biggest hurdle will be opium. How do you convince a farmer to cut his income by 70%? I mean it is not like the DEA is flying over and spotting these fields, they are growing with impunity, most of the time the local LEO's know about it as well. What we need to do is get their industrial hemp industry going. It won't be as profitable as opium but it will be far more profitable than soy. On top of that I am pretty sure they don't have the American inspired (and oftern blackmailed) hate for the Cannabis plant that we see in almost every other nation on earth. They have been producing actual smokeable pot since before many Christians believe the earth was even created so they know how to grow the stuff.

[Mohawk5]

"The war is lost"

Harry Reid

[BROEDERBOND]

I remember the good old days for Dems, when Iraq was a quagmire and we couldn't win.

...................

WE HAVEN'T WON. The sunni militias will revert to type as soon as the payola stops. Within 18 months of our upcoming departure another saddam will be in control

[Canadian Jane]

So why is Obama going to send more of our troops to Afghanistan, putting their lives in danger needlessly?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03/obama-harper-ca.html


If you want to quote my Prime Minister, quote him in context. What he was saying was that NATO will not defeat the Taliban - NATO can only hope to assist the Afghan military and their government in putting themselves in a position to fairly defend themselves against the Taliban.

No different than the United States - you will never eliminate the enemy, but the hope is that you are always strong enough to fend them off.




"We're not going to ever defeat the insurgency. My reading of Afghanistan in history is that it's probably had an insurgency forever of some kind," Harper told Fareed Zakaria of CNN.

"Ultimately the source of authority in Afghanistan has to be perceived as being indigenous," he said. "If it's perceived as being foreign — and I still think we're welcome there — but if it's perceived as being foreign, it will always have a significant degree of opposition."

"If we think that we are going to govern Afghanistan for Afghans, or over the long-term be responsible for day-to-day security in Afghanistan and see that country improve, we are mistaken," Harper said.

[The Bos'un]

Perhaps we should legalize drugs, use pharmacies to sell it, and have "dens" for people to use it in with health care workers on premises to care for accidental overusing incidents? after all it is the fault of rich economies and good life livers that poor farmers are exploited.

And the Tin Hatted morals police who spread the rumors and blackmail people to say bad things about the Cannabis plant. Ya what we need are opium dens and good places to smoke doobies. Where are Cheech and Chong when you need them? (Sarcasm off)

[The Bos'un]

Prince Harry (Reid) does not want to defeat anything except that evil conservativism that once spread like an overflowing toilet throughout the land. :))The Senate debate on Iraq grew sharper Thursday when Majority Leader Harry Reid said the war had been lost and that President Bush's troop buildup is not stemming the rampant violence. That statement prompted Republicans to declare that Democrats do not support the troops in Iraq.

"I believe myself that the secretary of state, secretary of defense and — you have to make your own decisions as to what the president knows — (know) this war is lost and the surge is not accomplishing anything as indicated by the extreme violence in Iraq yesterday," said Reid.

The White House called Reid's remarks "disturbing" and a slap at troops who are risking their lives.

Senior Republican Senator and White House hopeful John McCain also lashed out Thursday at Reid's comments. Source:

Senator Reid On Iraq: "This War Is Lost"
(http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/20/politics/main2709229.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_2709229)

[The Bos'un]

By the way, Prince Harry (Reid) won the debate, indirectly. Conservatism and the Bush ideology are now on the wan....... Courtesy of Obamunism.......

[ArmyMAJretired]

WE HAVEN'T WON. The sunni militias will revert to type as soon as the payola stops. Within 18 months of our upcoming departure another saddam will be in control

Got the numbers for tomorrow'a lottery drawing?

It's up to 212 Million in GA. :))

[The Bos'un]

I'm in :))

[The Bos'un]

By the way, Prince Harry (Reid) won the debate, indirectly. Conservatism and the Bush ideology are now on the wan....... Courtesy of Obamunism.......
PS: Sarcasm off....

[ArmyMAJretired]

have you ever heard a liberal apologize

I seen a peanut stand, heard a rubber band
I seen a needle that winked its eye
But I be done seen 'bout ev'rything
except hear a liberal poligize.

seen a front porch swing, heard a diamond ring
I seen a polka-dot railroad tie
But I be done seen 'bout ev'rything
when I hear a lib pologize

:))

[The Bos'un]

:clap: :clap:

that was good....

[The Bos'un]

You sure it had nothing to do with C-130s being filled to the brim with tax payer dollars and then handed out daily as a bribe not to fight? Hell I could solve all the crime in Washington D.C. if you give me 200 million cash. I am just going to walk up to every criminal and offer him 50k a day to just stay home and not rob people. I mean that is a real solution right?
Now it will change. Obamunism is here.... ;)

[Gengar]

If you want to quote my Prime Minister, quote him in context. What he was saying was that NATO will not defeat the Taliban - NATO can only hope to assist the Afghan military and their government in putting themselves in a position to fairly defend themselves against the Taliban.

No different than the United States - you will never eliminate the enemy, but the hope is that you are always strong enough to fend them off.




"We're not going to ever defeat the insurgency. My reading of Afghanistan in history is that it's probably had an insurgency forever of some kind," Harper told Fareed Zakaria of CNN.

"Ultimately the source of authority in Afghanistan has to be perceived as being indigenous," he said. "If it's perceived as being foreign — and I still think we're welcome there — but if it's perceived as being foreign, it will always have a significant degree of opposition."

"If we think that we are going to govern Afghanistan for Afghans, or over the long-term be responsible for day-to-day security in Afghanistan and see that country improve, we are mistaken," Harper said.

I did quote him correctly. And the thing with Afghanistan is... they don't know what "civilized" means. At least in Iraq, there are people who want to work to improve their country.

1,000 years from now, Afghanistan will still be the same.

[rhet 2]

Now it will change. Obamunism is here.... ;)

NEVER say "never" because "can't never can" -- if your current strategy and tactics are not working, scrap them, find where they're off base, and shift directions.

We HAVE NO CHOICE but to stop islamic Death Cult imperialism -- we win the culture wars or all hope for common decent human civilization collapses under the boot heels of vicious slavery to islamic totalitarianism.

And leaving a hidey hole in A-stan AGAIN is just as deadly as it was in the past.

But, we've got to stop fighting a purely military action and start fighting the Culture of Death -- ideology as well as police/military -- and we've got to stop compartmentalizing and locking ourselves down into stupid factionalism in our own culture war, Left against Right.

So the PARTY OF ABSOLUTE CONTROL has got to go -- because Democrats are weak, corrupt, addicted to vicious dirty slimy destructive policies, and, above all, TOTALLY STUPID in their lock-down boxed in thinking -- UNABLE AND UNWILLING to learn and to adapt to new realities their stupid fictions and mythologies never anticipated or took into consideration.

"Back on Track" to Carterist Hippie World of the 1970s is exactly the WRONG direction -- "FORWARD TO NEW THINKING" instead of "Back on Track" to Hippie Meltdown World.

PROGRESS instead of REGRESS, because Democrat REGRESSION is a lock down into proven failures.

So, how do we clean up the A-stan sewage world of ancient barbarities? How do we pull the Afghan villager out of brutal savagery and into 21st century humanism?

The first step is to admit that this is a CULTURE WAR -- ideology of barbaric totalitarianist religious fanaticism vs. ideology of the sanctity of free choice -- and military weapons can make the enemy dead -- but they CANNOT change how the enemy thinks.

How do we stop the spread/continuation of enemy Dead Cult fanatic loyalty to war lords bent on destroying all human freedom at any cost, including the slaughter of millions?

[Free Speech]

By the way, Prince Harry (Reid) won the debate, indirectly. Conservatism and the Bush ideology are now on the wan....... Courtesy of Obamunism.......

Bush was one of the finest conservatives of our times, it is sad he gets no respect from many Americans and even from many Republicans lately.

[The Bos'un]

Bout all I can say there are a lot of fair weather sailors and foul weather merchants in the RHINO community who think that apoloy and appeasement to a leftist is the way to go. Sad, but true your comment Bush was one of the finest conservatives of our times, it is sad he gets no respect from many Americans and even from many Republicans lately. Thank you for your comment Free Speech....

[The Bos'un]

I did quote him correctly. And the thing with Afghanistan is... they don't know what "civilized" means. At least in Iraq, there are people who want to work to improve their country.

1,000 years from now, Afghanistan will still be the same.
And we will be like Afghanistan. ;)

Civilizations change and "those who have" become "those who have nots." When we are all have nots then the playing field will be balanced?

[rhet 2]

Bush was one of the finest conservatives of our times, it is sad he gets no respect from many Americans and even from many Republicans lately.

Bush was fine and did good -- but we're way beyond Bush policy now.

Time for PROGRESS and movement toward even greater victories.

And the one area he totally failed to address is the IDEOLOGY wars.

Gates is absolutely right: no way in hell A-stan is a purely military victory -- because the Culture of Death is way too ingrained and powerful in the HEARTS AND MINDS of Afghan and Paki culture -- the Death Cult Lords have way too much power over HEARTS AND MINDS, which gives them total control over bodies, too.

How do we break that power of Cult Indoctrination, so that the Afghan villagers themselves break free of ancient barbarities and can get their kids the hope of 21st century self-determination required for full human conditioning instead of their current animal slavery to the imams?

[rhet 2]

And we will be like Afghanistan. ;)

Civilizations change and "those who have" become "those who have nots." When we are all have nots then the playing field will be balanced?

Oh, stop giving Huntingdon so much influence over your thinking.

As a historian, he's totally way off base. And as a sociologist, he never even got started. Totally dead wrong.

Those who PRODUCE continue to produce -- and those who only consume, take, and use up lose.

Hippie Thugs like Obama are takers and users, destroyers, anti-productive -- but they are NOT the only power in the universe -- and actually have ZERO authority, so they'll never stop individual initiative and productivity.

And the damned Commies, including the freaks in China, and especially the Users and Destroyers of the islamic Death Cults suck themselves dry as soon as they destroy enough producers and innovators to leave themselves without the resources to take and consume -- just like the Soviet PARTY from Hell destroyed itself -- just like the Cubans loyal to Castro wiped out their own food supply.

Obama and the Dems are destroying their own resources in exactly the same way -- and they WILL dry up and blow away, just as soon as true leaders with the backing of true innovators gets fed up with their restrictions and obstructions.

Just like Darfur is now a worthless wasteland for the Sudanese Monsters, a wasteland ready for innovators to take over.

Obama and the Dems are Walking Dead -- and they know it. In panic, they're doing exactly what will make them Buried Dead in very short order -- because real humans don't stay oppressed -- we've got the energy and the will to bury the Thugs once and for all. And the Stupids currently panicked into giving them one last chance are already cutting and running -- because that's what weak and worthless herd beasts do -- panic and run, instead of Find a Way. We're just in the transition zone between the final death of hopeless retrogression lock down and true culture innovations.

Rome didn't die at all. It CHANGED -- and Huntingdon is too damned stupid and ignorant to see how it changed. Rome is very alive and very healthy -- it became Europe, changed to become what is called British humanism, changed to become the US -- and the US humanism will change to become something else -- but still Graeco-Roman culture, still Judeao-Christian-Graeco-Roman culture in all it's productive, innovative will to survive and thrive.

Politics are only the most superficial and shallow expression of culture -- and so are economics, which ARE NOT CONTROLLED by politics, but rather by the individual's need for food, clothing, shelter to sustain life.

Change? Yes

Die? No

Change in compliance with Obama's totalitarian dictation? NO WAY IN HELL -- because he has ZERO power over the Hearts and Minds of the individual who faces death unless he INNOVATES to find the means to survive.

[Gengar]

And we will be like Afghanistan. ;)

Civilizations change and "those who have" become "those who have nots." When we are all have nots then the playing field will be balanced?

Afghanistan has never changed... but if you believe they will, let them change on their own. We have more important things to deal with (Pakistan).

[The Bos'un]

I said we will change. It is against the tenets of the Taliban rebels to change. Talibans just blow up or kill opposition for the moon god they worship.

[The Bos'un]

Just seeing if you are awake, Rhet. As ususal you are on the dime... :))

[The Bos'un]

President Oby will be suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome the for the next 40 years. Castro redux.

http://ts3.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=595489851830&id=9f5fed8cf1573d2de68a64818f622b5f

[USAF Medic]

If we try to turn Afghanistan into an all out American war we will lose.
The Afghans need to do this with our help, but it needs to be THEIR war.
Secretary Gates has repeatedly said the war in Afghanistan needs to be an Afghan war not an American war.

[Gengar]

I said we will change. It is against the tenets of the Taliban rebels to change. Talibans just blow up or kill opposition for the moon god they worship.

Yes... we change... but Afghan civilization has remained unchanged for centuries. And we can't force them to change. They are destined to stay that way forever. Afghanistan has nothing... nothing at all, that could possibly improve the lives of anyone living there.

[rhet 2]

Yes... we change... but Afghan civilization has remained unchanged for centuries. And we can't force them to change. They are destined to stay that way forever. Afghanistan has nothing... nothing at all, that could possibly improve the lives of anyone living there.

When cultures are isolated from outside influences, they stagnate and lock into barbarities.

This is what happened in A-stan -- because, in reality, A-stan hasn't got a damned thing worth a damned thing to the rest of the world, so the rest of humanity stayed out -- and they were denied the change to leave.

They ARE NOT "destined to stay that way forever" -- because that is NOT natural, NOT normal, NOT the way humanity ever exists except through artificial controls.

Figure out how to inject the stagnated and stultified culture of A-stan with fresh POV and intercultural exchanges. Figure out how to smash the walls that have kept them isolated from normal inter-cultural contacts that inevitably cause culture modifications.

And the biggest wall is the imams themselves, terrified of Western influences because they know damned good and well that exposure to Western humanism would tear their power to shreds.

Since the Byzantines, we have failed to confront the fanatic ideology of conquest taught by radicalized imams.

It's the IDEOLOGY we've got to confront and stop -- by destroying the imam stranglehold on the distribution of information so that the only belief system Afghan villagers ever hear is the fanatic Death Cult one of absolute subservience to the imams.

We ourselves MUST invent and foster a moderate non-aggressive, non-absolutist belief system that encourages Afghans to SELF RULE instead of abject slavery to the imams and terror of the war lords. Attack that tribal chieftain is SUPREME ********, getting villagers to seek the good of their own immediate families instead of serving the old barbaric hierarchies, encourages defiance of the imams and the warlords and see that ideology of self-determination spread throughout the country by radio and tv and every other medium we can use to counter the mind-control of the few at the top of the power pile.

[ReiRei]

Why are we using the word "insurgents"? What, they are no longer human beings?

Wonderful! Dehumanize the enemy!

[PercyVere]

So why are we there then?Same reason as Iraq ... 9-11. Or so we were told.

[pattyk]

Why are we using the word "insurgents"? What, they are no longer human beings?

Wonderful! Dehumanize the enemy!

have you been in a spider hole the last 7 years?

insurgents are what they are. dehumanize someone that beheads someone else???

HELL YES!

[ArmyMAJretired]

Why are we using the word "insurgents"? What, they are no longer human beings?

Wonderful! Dehumanize the enemy!

Er, what do YOU call animals that kill women and children and saw off the heads of their captives>

[BROEDERBOND]

Got the numbers for tomorrow'a lottery drawing?

.................

that would require a crystal ball.

This is just reality-
WE HAVEN'T WON. The sunni militias will revert to type as soon as the payola stops. Within 18 months of our upcoming departure another saddam will be in control

[rhet 2]

Er, what do YOU call animals that kill women and children and saw off the heads of their captives>

If you want to change human behavior, change the IDEOLOGY which drives the behavior.

These vicious cruel barbarians only do such things because OF THE WAY THEY WERE TAUGHT TO THINK.

But you're right: how do you denigrate a person who has already denigrated himself to welcome such a sick and disgusting ideology and give himself over to such vicious barbarities worthy only of ravening beasts?

[ArmyMAJretired]

that would require a crystal ball.

This is just reality-
WE HAVEN'T WON. The sunni militias will revert to type as soon as the payola stops. Within 18 months of our upcoming departure another saddam will be in control

In the military we would call that a SWAG
Scientific
Wild
Assed
Guess

:))

[BROEDERBOND]

In the military we would call that a SWAG
Scientific
Wild
Assed
Guess

..............

sure whatever.

This is just reality-
WE HAVEN'T WON. The sunni militias will revert to type as soon as the payola stops. Within 18 months of our upcoming departure another saddam will be in control

[Loyal American]

In the military we would call that a SWAG
Scientific
Wild
Assed
Guess

:))

MAJ, I gotta make a mental note of this, love it! :angel:

[ArmyMAJretired]

MAJ, I gotta make a mental note of this, love it! :angel:

Then here ate a few more

FEBA
False
Enthusiasm
Bad
Attitute

FUBAR
Fudged
Up
Beyond
All
Recognition

BOHICA
Bend
Over
Here
It
Comes
Again

WETSU
We
Eat
This
****
Up

[ALcard]

Why are we using the word "insurgents"? What, they are no longer human beings?

Wonderful! Dehumanize the enemy!

I'm sure you think they should be called "freedom fighters" too :rolleyes:

Ask yourself if you think our enemy would treat you humanly.

[rhet 2]

Then here ate a few more

FEBA
False
Enthusiasm
Bad
Attitute

FUBAR
Fudged
Up
Beyond
All
Recognition

BOHICA
Bend
Over
Here
It
Comes
Again

WETSU
We
Eat
This
****
Up

Yep, BOHICA -- the entire Democrat "Back on track" of the Hippie era -- Change you can count on -- change away from 21st century innovations BACK to total miserable abysmal failures of the ancient past.

Like walking BACKwards gets society moved forward?

BOHICA FUBAR fed by FEBA nitwits stuck in the 1970s and unable to walk forward because their feet got stuck in Hippie sludge theories for the obstinate and ill-informed.

Instead of ducking incoming rounds, they persist in standing up to benind them to see who's shooting off firecrackers to celebrate the glory of Them. -- BOHICA FUBAR fed by FEBA nutjob egotism.

[USAF Medic]

Then here ate a few more

FEBA
False
Enthusiasm
Bad
Attitute

FUBAR
Fudged
Up
Beyond
All
Recognition

BOHICA
Bend
Over
Here
It
Comes
Again

WETSU
We
Eat
This
****
Up

GOMER
Get
Outa
My
Emergency
Room

[ShinGouki]

Afghanistan is a much more difficult fight than Iraq ever was. The terrain is awful for offensive armies like ours; our armor is basically useless in Taliban controlled areas. The nation of Afghanistan is perfectly built for a long battle of attrition, with the defenders eventually pulling through. It's just like Stalingrad; the city was located in a perfect position for the Russians to defend.

[grhayes]

So why is Obama going to send more of our troops to Afghanistan, putting their lives in danger needlessly?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03/obama-harper-ca.html

Wrong attitude. Sure the terrain is different and challenges are different. All that means is you need a different set of tactics and tools.

[Gengar]

Wrong attitude. Sure the terrain is different and challenges are different. All that means is you need a different set of tactics and tools.

And what tools would that be? Afghanistan has no industry. No economy. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

I am just being honest here. It's the neighbor we need to worry about.

[Gengar]

Why are we using the word "insurgents"? What, they are no longer human beings?

Wonderful! Dehumanize the enemy!

They do plenty to dehumanize themselves... the 14 year old kid filmed beheading a man comes to mind.

[rhet 2]

And what tools would that be? Afghanistan has no industry. No economy. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

I am just being honest here. It's the neighbor we need to worry about.

Yeah.

The neighbors on all sides, but especially the increasingly radicalized Pakistan, rapidly becoming an even worse horror than the Taliban ever created -- at least in terms of direct threat to civilization itself.

[PercyVere]

have you been in a spider hole the last 7 years?

insurgents are what they are. dehumanize someone that beheads someone else???

HELL YES!Why is beheading so much worse than, say, herding an extended family into a building, then blowing it up, or shelling a school, or a wedding party ... please explain the difference.

[Gengar]

Why is beheading so much worse than, say, herding an extended family into a building, then blowing it up, or shelling a school, or a wedding party ... please explain the difference.

And who are you accusing of such things?

[rhet 2]

If you want to end the violence, end the culture that celebrates death and destruction.

Pakistan is the result of a CULTURE OF DEATH given political power to infect entire societies with its celebration of SEXIST, RACIST AND RELIGIOUS HATREDS.

Afghanistan is the result of a DEATH CULT given political power to infect generation after generation with its celebration of SEXIST< RACIST< AND RELIGIOUS HATREDS.

If you want to end the violence, end the power of the Death Cults to spread their sexist, racist, and religious hatreds to others. TEACH HUMANISM.

And, for that, you need to control the media, control the schools, and protect the teachers of humanism long enough to counter CENTURIES of Death Cult lies.

Military victories are only part of the equation. They stop the power of the Death Cult and make Death Cult slaves dead, keeping humanists alive long enough to counter the PSYCHOLOGICAL indoctrinations of the fascist imperialist Death Worshipers.

But, as long as the Death Cults control the education to insure that the people NEVER hear the truth about the horrors committed by the Death Cult leaders -- not just schooling -- exposure to other ideas and other ways of thinking -- the Death Cults will thrive and continue to export their corruption and degradation to other nations.

Fight the Culture War by teaching humanism instead of ignoring and tolerating the sexism, racism, and religious intolerance of the Death Cults.

[riverrider]

I recently posted the following at More Good News thread.
It is all I am going to say about this.
Because you either get it or you don't.
If you get it, no explanation is necessary; if you don't get it, you never will:
This says it all about all the good news in afghanistan, my brothers and sisters:
In an interview with The New York Times, President Obama says the United States isn't winning the war in Afghanistan and he's opened the door to having the military reach out to some of the Taliban insurgents.
RR
(emphasis mine, RR : http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101587130&ft=1&f=1001)
JANE FONDA, meet BARACK OBAMA.

[Celtic Pax]

And who are you accusing of such things? He is referencing Israel and the US naturally. He can't help himself.

[riverrider]

You may have noticed that he said this after meeting with our top commanders and hearing the same opinion from them.

Afghanistan: where empires go to die. Don't look now but the continuance of the American empire is not as assured as it once was.
Nuts.

[mark23]

if you believe that you are all idiots.afghanistan went south when nato said they could take over.if we send more US troops in we will win there like iraq

umm what did we win in iraq? Iraq is under sharia law and friendly/controlled by Iran.

[mark23]

I looked hard for a point in your post. War too tough for me? This is not a matter of my personal courage. And I'm too old to join the military (58).

The question is will our continued investment yield a return that justifies that investment. My take, and it is shared more or less by most of our military leaders on the ground over there, is that the point of diminishing returns has been passed.

Neither Afg. or Iraq will end gloriously as WW2 did, for a number of reasons. Your apparent notion that sustained courage will win the day is the sort of thing that ends empires.

Discretion is the better part of valor, as Shakespeare would have it.

Your remark about nukes is just whack. I won't live that much longer -- it's my family I'm concerned about, not to mention posterity. You may recall that word, our founders used it a lot.

Neither war will end gloriously because all the people care about in these countries in Sharia. Thats why its in both the iraq and afganistan constitution. The money we wasted helping these people who don't want it should have been spent on defending our homeland and proping up europes horrible birth rates so europe doesn't become "Eurabia"

[rhet 2]

Neither war will end gloriously because all the people care about in these countries in Sharia. Thats why its in both the iraq and afganistan constitution. The money we wasted helping these people who don't want it should have been spent on defending our homeland and proping up europes horrible birth rates so europe doesn't become "Eurabia"

Your assumption that "all the people care about in these countries in Sharia" is way off base.

A lot of imams -- the priests-- are definitely hung up and psycho about rigid religious laws and conformity and submission to their power.

And a lot of the political leaders dance tightropes because those priests have a hell of a lot of influence they can and do use to stir up intifada insane mob reactions when a leader steps on their toes -- like Musharraf did when he booted one of their Power Pigs off the equivalent of the Paki Supreme Court.

Which is especially rough since islam doesn't separate church and state and the judges ARE priests -- rather like the entire federal court system in the US being nothing but medieval Jesuit Inquisition priests with Enforcer squads of their own, subject only to the orders of those priests from hell.

But the average human person on the street is NOT a cult member, NOT fanaticized and NOT radicalized as you paint them to be.

Ignorant, ill-informed and DEFINITELY naive and highly emotionalized, NOT trained in Western Logic -- and therefore easily misled and controlled by the rabble-rousing Thug Lord priests -- and mostly TERRORIZED into submission out of sheer fear of those religious "police" thugs who use brutal violence to "make examples" periodically just to keep the Ummah under control.

Which is exactly the same reason that LA burned because of rabble-rousing slimes stirring up mob rage among ill-informed, highly emotionalized, and terribly naive and easily freaked out citizens.

Gee, go figure: mob riots happening in the US because a handful of freaked out Power Thugs start shooting off their fat, hate-filled mouths to ignorant, ill-educated, wasted people with nothing better to do with their time and energy than stand around listening to a bunch of Power Thugs with a lot of hate in their psychotic little brains.

But, when the Goon Priests and their Goon Squad Enforcers aren't around, they turn out to be decent human beings who love their wives and their kids and are just trying to do the best they can to be decent honorable and trustworthy husbands and fathers.

The young men CAN become radicalized and devout jihadi cult slaves, yes. Especially since so many have little or no hope for honest occupation of their time and energy -- just like so many American youth get sucked into gangs because the gangs beat sitting and staring into thin air with nothing to do with all that time and energy to burn. But most of the Ummah just want to be left alone to get on with living the best they can under some damned nasty social conditions.

Change the social conditions -- especially removing the Cult Lord terrorism squads and the Hate-Kill Talkers of Criminality -- and you'll see a hell of a lot fewer youngsters being corrupted and sucked into the cult.

Stop dissing people just because they're trapped in a damned nasty social situation over which they have zero control.

[rhet 2]

Hey, you're not supposed to be nice to me, I'm a LIBERAL!

No, you didn't annoy me, I was just trying to sound tough and itellectual at the same time. A real stretch for me.

The Russians did a lot wrong in Afghanistan but whether or not we can get past some of the same problems they encountered, such as the high degree of mistrust of and hostility towards outsiders and infidels, is not certain.

The can-do spirit in our military is admirable. But some things are possible, others are not. Beating your head against a concrete wall will usually not work, no matter how confident you are.

I forgive you. Not all Liberals are evil as hell itself -- just the ones with political and judicial power.

Change is normal for any culture. And, when two different cultures meet, the norm is for both to change, creating still a third, newer culture.

What is abnormal is the rigid isolationism deliberately imposed on islamic societies in order to deliberately stop culture modifications.

It's not something that can be forced, as the Soviets tried to do. It's a natural process which can be blocked by government power, but not facilitated by government force, only by a government system which allows open and free intercultural exchanges at individual and small group levels. Which is precisely the "secret" underlying Petraeus' successful Surge tactics in Iraq, where cultural stagnation was never so rigidly forced onto the apolitical citizenry.

If you want to end the violence and brutality in A-stan and P-stan, break the stranglehold on normal intercultural exchanges as the small group levels and break the barriers against exposure to westernized humanist values. Government CAN block culture and social RESTRICTIVENESS -- just as we have done with the Hate Crime laws that have done much to limit KKK and neo-Nazi Absolutism and suppression of cultural modification processes.

But it takes time and a deliberate effort to influence a nation toward openness and free, unrestricted cultural exchanges.

BTW: people used to say it was impossible to fly -- and then claimed it was impossible to land on the moon. All it takes is the WILL to do something and the patient dedication to try-fail and try-something else only to fail again -- until you stumble onto the one tactic that does work because you learned a thing or twenty from all those early failed attempts.

[mark23]

Your assumption that "all the people care about in these countries in Sharia" is way off base.

A lot of imams -- the priests-- are definitely hung up and psycho about rigid religious laws and conformity and submission to their power.

And a lot of the political leaders dance tightropes because those priests have a hell of a lot of influence they can and do use to stir up intifada insane mob reactions when a leader steps on their toes -- like Musharraf did when he booted one of their Power Pigs off the equivalent of the Paki Supreme Court.

Which is especially rough since islam doesn't separate church and state and the judges ARE priests -- rather like the entire federal court system in the US being nothing but medieval Jesuit Inquisition priests with Enforcer squads of their own, subject only to the orders of those priests from hell.

But the average human person on the street is NOT a cult member, NOT fanaticized and NOT radicalized as you paint them to be.

Ignorant, ill-informed and DEFINITELY naive and highly emotionalized, NOT trained in Western Logic -- and therefore easily misled and controlled by the rabble-rousing Thug Lord priests -- and mostly TERRORIZED into submission out of sheer fear of those religious "police" thugs who use brutal violence to "make examples" periodically just to keep the Ummah under control.

Which is exactly the same reason that LA burned because of rabble-rousing slimes stirring up mob rage among ill-informed, highly emotionalized, and terribly naive and easily freaked out citizens.

Gee, go figure: mob riots happening in the US because a handful of freaked out Power Thugs start shooting off their fat, hate-filled mouths to ignorant, ill-educated, wasted people with nothing better to do with their time and energy than stand around listening to a bunch of Power Thugs with a lot of hate in their psychotic little brains.

But, when the Goon Priests and their Goon Squad Enforcers aren't around, they turn out to be decent human beings who love their wives and their kids and are just trying to do the best they can to be decent honorable and trustworthy husbands and fathers.

The young men CAN become radicalized and devout jihadi cult slaves, yes. Especially since so many have little or no hope for honest occupation of their time and energy -- just like so many American youth get sucked into gangs because the gangs beat sitting and staring into thin air with nothing to do with all that time and energy to burn. But most of the Ummah just want to be left alone to get on with living the best they can under some damned nasty social conditions.

Change the social conditions -- especially removing the Cult Lord terrorism squads and the Hate-Kill Talkers of Criminality -- and you'll see a hell of a lot fewer youngsters being corrupted and sucked into the cult.

Stop dissing people just because they're trapped in a damned nasty social situation over which they have zero control.

Its not just the imams that are the problem. The people themselves top to bottom simply like Sharia and don't share our values at all. They had the chance in both Iraq and Afganistan to vote for freedom and what did they choose? They had the most powerful military in history behind them to change and they didn't. And its just not lack of education and poor men being mislead as you say. The Irianian people are very very educated yet they supported Khomeni and VOTED for an islamic republic. None of these people were mislead. Its what they wanted. Even if you removed every religious leader/terriorist inciter it wouldn't change a thing long term. There would be less violence yes but still these people would want sharia. They are who they are. And yes i do know muslims. Most of they are very hard working,educated,friendly and do care about there families as you say but if you gave them a vote they would throw about our constitution and put in Sharia in a heartbeat. This is what is going to happen to Europe in 50-100 years.

[Gengar]

umm what did we win in iraq? Iraq is under sharia law and friendly/controlled by Iran.

Someone reads too much Juan Cole.