What is your opinion on ghosts and haunted places?

[byzantine catholic]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?

[byzantine catholic]

Anyone?

[Tim]

Anyone?

Bueller?

[byzantine catholic]

Bueller?Is anyone gonna answer my question?:wall:

[ROBERTENEAL]

I think that ghosts are the same thing as "familiar spirits".
Here is a link that offers an explanation about the manifestations of familiar spirits: www.gotquestions.org/familiar-spirits.html

[byzantine catholic]

I think that ghosts are the same thing as "familiar spirits".
Here is a link that offers an explanation about the manifestations of familiar spirits: www.gotquestions.org/familiar-spirits.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/familiar-spirits.html[/quote]So) So that means that they are demons?

[markd]

My semi educated opinion is that ghosts are folks that are dead, but don't know they are dead.

Sounds silly, but I've read TONS on the subject, and been witness to a couple to allow me to come to that conclusion.

[Ron Jon]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?You mean like Ghostbusters or the current television show Ghost Hunters? I think it's fake and just a ploy to make money from the gullible. I have faith that there is a spiritual dimension, but that doesn't mean "spirits" or "ghosts" walk among us (like in the movies).

[ROBERTENEAL]

So"]www.gotquestions.org/familiar-spirits.html[/URL] So that means that they are demons?[/QUOTE]

I think that familiar spirits are real spiritual forces, and I do not think that they are on the Lord's side.

[markd]

[/url] So that means that they are demons?

I think that familiar spirits are real spiritual forces, and I do not think that they are on the Lord's side.[/quote]I don't equate spirits with religion at all. I get weird looks when I talk about it. But, I'm ok with weird looks.:shifty:

[byzantine catholic]

I think that if they are good spirits they are angels, if they are neutral spirits they are spirits in Purgatory, and if they are evil spirits they are demons.:clap:

[Tim]

I don't believe that they exist.

[ROBERTENEAL]

I think that if they are good spirits they are angels, if they are neutral spirits they are spirits in Purgatory, and if they are evil spirits they are demons.:clap:

I don't think that familiar spirits are good ,and I don't think that familiar spirits are neutral, either.

There was a revival of Spiritualism that involved channeling and seances in the 1800s.

The Fox sisters of Hydesville, New York were instrumental in promoting a revival of spiritualism beginning in 1848 when a lot of weird stuff was going on in their home.

Try doing a search for the "Fox Sisters", and also the "Burned Over Districts of New York State". Interesting stuff.

[Thank you Troops]

I believe that most all hauntings are demons. They can imitate dead people and manifest into them also. I am on the fence on whether a strong demon can hold human soul on this earth. I think it is possible.

[Harmonious]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?
Ghosts are largely spirits of people who have passed away, but have not yet found their way to the Next World, for one reason or another. Perhaps they are afraid of what is there, because of fear of the unknown, or of fear of punishment. I've met both types, and helped to send them "home," to the Next World. (Don't ask me to describe it.)

Demons... They also serve God, but in ways most people don't expect. Part of my belief system includes the fact that no creatures have Free Will except human beings. Demons are destructive spirits, but they do God's will as much as angels do. They serve different functions.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[byzantine catholic]

I don't think that familiar spirits are good ,and I don't think that familiar spirits are neutral, either.

There was a revival of Spiritualism that involved channeling and seances in the 1800s.

The Fox sisters of Hydesville, New York were instrumental in promoting a revival of spiritualism beginning in 1848 when a lot of weird stuff was going on in their home.

Try doing a search for the "Fox Sisters", and also the "Burned Over Districts of New York State". Interesting stuff.Yes I know the occult is evil but in my own Catholic faith we believe in angels that can appear as spirits and Our Lady can as well and spirits in Purgatory and of course demons!

[Ron Jon]

Those are my thoughts on the matter.What are your thoughts on Psalm 104:4
"Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire." :question:

[markd]

Yes I know the occult is evil but in my own Catholic faith we believe in angels that can appear as spirits and Our Lady can as well and spirits in Purgatory and of course demons!I wouldn't call the occult inherently evil, but, then, I'm not religious. It can be used to facilitate evil things, but the study, or grouping of practices as "occult" doesn't make them automatically evil.

[byzantine catholic]

Ghosts are largely spirits of people who have passed away, but have not yet found their way to the Next World, for one reason or another. Perhaps they are afraid of what is there, because of fear of the unknown, or of fear of punishment. I've met both types, and helped to send them "home," to the Next World. (Don't ask me to describe it.)

Demons... They also serve God, but in ways most people don't expect. Part of my belief system includes the fact that no creatures have Free Will except human beings. Demons are destructive spirits, but they do God's will as much as angels do. They serve different functions.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.What do ya mean that you helped ghosts?

[ROBERTENEAL]

I believe that most all hauntings are demons. They can imitate dead people and manifest into them also. I am on the fence on whether a strong demon can hold human spirits on this earth. I think it is possible.

I don't know if they can hold human spirits here.

One thing we do know about familiar spirits is that they like to keep certain things "in the family". They want you to be tormented (or deceived) by the same things that great uncle Fred was tormented with.

And Satan is a counterfeiter. I think that he wants people to believe that they have been communicating with an ancestor, when they have really contacted the dark side of the spiritual realm.

[markd]

What do ya mean that you helped ghosts?Ghosts/spirits can be "reasoned" with. I've done it a couple times myself.

[terri910]

I found this at Catholic Answers, byzantine (interesting question, btw):

First, the Church forbids us to conjure up the dead (Catechism 2116-2117). Peter Kreeft in his book Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Heaven (pgs 34-35) says the reason for “this stricture is probably protection against the danger of deception by evil spirits. We are out of our depth, our knowledge, and our control once we open the doors to the supernatural. The only openings that are safe for us are the ones God has approved: revelation, prayer, His own miracles, sacraments, and primarily Christ Himself…The danger is not physical but spiritual, and spiritual danger always centers on deception.”

“Nevertheless, without our action or invitation, the dead often do appear to the living. There is enormous evidence of “ghosts” in all cultures. What are we to make of them?” He goes on to say “We can distinguish three kinds of ghosts, I believe. First, the most familiar kind: the sad ones, the wispy ones. They seem to be working out some unfinished earthly business, or suffering some purgatorial purification until released from their earthly business. These ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it to Purgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past lives on earth.

Second, there are malicious and deceptive spirits—and since they are deceptive, they hardly ever appear malicious. These are probably the ones who respond to conjurings at seances. They probably come from Hell. Even the chance of that happening should be sufficient to terrify away all temptations to necromancy."

"Third, there are bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family, especially spouses, who appear unbidden, at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from Heaven. Unlike the purgatorial ghosts who come back primarily for their own sakes, these bright spirits come back for the sake of us the living, to tell us all is well. They are aped by evil spirits who say the same, who speak 'peace, peace, when there is no peace'. But the deception works only one way: the fake can deceive by appearing genuine, but the genuine never deceives by appearing fake. Heavenly spirits always convince us that they are genuinely good. Even the bright spirits appear ghostlike to us because a ghost of any type is one whose substance does not belong in or come from this world. In Heaven these spirits are not ghosts but real, solid and substantial because they are at home there: One can't be a ghost in one's own country."

“That there are all three kinds of ghosts is enormously likely. Even taking into account our penchant to deceive and be deceived, our credulity and fakery, there remain so many trustworthy accounts of all three types of ghosts - trustworthy by every ordinary empirical and psychological standard - that only a dogmatic prejudice against them could prevent us from believing they exist. As Chesterton says, 'We believe an old apple woman when she says she ate an apple; but when she says she saw a ghost, we say 'But she's only an old apple woman.' A most undemocratic and unscientific prejudice."

Recommeded reading:


Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Heaven
By Peter Kreeft

Ghosts and Poltergeists
By Herbert Thurston, SJ

Seven Kinds of Ghosts (article)
By Bro. John-Paul Ignatius

[Ron Jon]

Ghosts/spirits can be "reasoned" with. I've done it a couple times myself.How did you know you were reasoning with a ghost/spirit and not simply "reasoning" with your own over-active imagination?

[psyko kat]

http://www.forgottenoh.com/gore.html

Iv personally had things happen to me at this place.

[byzantine catholic]

I found this at Catholic Answers, byzantine (interesting question, btw):That is why I love the Catholic Church!:clap:

[psyko kat]

http://www.forgottenoh.com/Counties/Erie/maplegrove.html

this is another place close to me./ very strange.

[Ron Jon]

http://www.forgottenoh.com/gore.html

Iv personally had things happen to me at this place.I've had things happen to me too. Doesn't mean it was supernatural. :rolleyes:

[psyko kat]

I've had things happen to me too. Doesn't mean it was supernatural. :rolleyes:

the things me and my friends saw there, would make yer blood run cold...

[3inOne]

I found this at Catholic Answers, byzantine (interesting question, btw):

Thank you terri, good post. I love Peter Kreeft's writing.

[Ron Jon]

the things me and my friends saw there, would make yer blood run cold...I doubt it. But if you want to believe in such things, maybe you should make a documentary and show it on YouTube.

[Harmonious]

What are your thoughts on Psalm 104:4
"Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire." :question:God created angels. Seraphim are fiery angels. They are the sort of angels that Isaiah met in chapter 6.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what you are asking with your question.

[Harmonious]

What do ya mean that you helped ghosts?I've spoken to them and convinced them to go to the Next World. The door was there. They just needed to be convinced to go through it.

Some took more convincing than others. Others were forcibly helped in their journey by dark cloaked angels.

[markd]

How did you know you were reasoning with a ghost/spirit and not simply "reasoning" with your own over-active imagination?My imagination didn't toss the mug at me.

[markd]

I doubt it. But if you want to believe in such things, maybe you should make a documentary and show it on YouTube.I feel similarly about religious folks. No skin off my nose.

[Ron Jon]

God created angels. Seraphim are fiery angels. They are the sort of angels that Isaiah met in chapter 6.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what you are asking with your question.‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

I think that describes me in this instance. I don't see how Seraphim could be fiery angels from the passage in Isaiah 6. What am I missing?

[Ron Jon]

My imagination didn't toss the mug at me.Did anyone, besides yourself, witness this event?

[smyrna]

It is an exciting world that we live in and certainly not totally understood. The Lord Jesus dealt with demons. Paul warned us of spirits. Light and darkness...when everything else is gone, that is what is left. What is in the light? What is in the darkness? All I know is that...yep, I am walking through the valley of the shadow of death and I fear no evil for the Lord is with me.

[optrader]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?

The dead are asleep in their graves, with a few notable exeptions. (Enoch, Elijah, few others) Ghosts, perceived by most as the souls of the dead wandering the earth, is deception. These "ghosts" are demons, posing as the departed to deceive people into accepting the notion that the dead can indeed rise from their graves, and in many instances, communicate/interact with the living. Spiritualism is one of Satan's greatest deceptions...

Demonic possession can occur, but not without the consent of the possessed. Consent may consist, in some cases, of fooling around with powers we have no business fooling around with. I point to the two boys responsible for the Columbine massacre. I believe they became possessed due to ignorance. This is why God gives us warning to stay away from spiritualism, wizardry, witchcraft etc. We have no power to control the merest of Satans' demons and God is under no obligation to protect us when we don't heed His warning and deliberately to stupid things...

[Angryamerican]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?

They are all evil angels that were cast to the earth.

They along with satan are trying to mislead us from the truth.

[Harmonious]

‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

I think that describes me in this instance. I don't see how Seraphim could be fiery angels from the passage in Isaiah 6. What am I missing?Then you are not reading the Hebrew. They are Seraphim. The word it self, Seraph, means "burn."

The angels in that chapter are fiery angels, or Seraphim.

Upon a further reading, the fiery angels in Isaiah, called Seraphim, are not in that chapter of Psalms, where messengers of fire are mentioned.

Let's say, for the moment, that they are different. (They might be.) I still don't see the problem driving the question.

Angels can be fiery. I have no problem with this concept.

[khigh]

I believe in ghosts. It is not something I can explain, just something I have seen. What do people say about the evidence that people like TAPS (Ghost Hunters) have collected? They have video, audio, touch, smell. I don't think any of them have tasted a ghost, but they have evidence from every other sense. Watch the episode about Eastern State Penn and tell me any other explanation for the shadow figure. Or how else Jason could have a hand print on his back when no one else was around. Or how their sound guy had his equipment knock him on his back and how he could not breathe at the armory.

I personally have seen and experienced things that I cannot explain, at all. I have video and audio of a woman walking through the basement at the General's house on base and have heard screams at the cliff where Geronimo jumped. I have heard sobbing outside Quanah Parker's jail cell. And there is no way to explain the woman I saw at the Red Cross building in town- she was running through the tunnels that go from the Red Cross building to the Lawtonian Hotel carrying something.

[3inOne]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?

The next narrative is a personal experience I observed of an exorcism when I was about eight years old. Some will relegate this short story to the “anecdotal” bin of their mind, but this story has been retold many times by other members in the family.

A relative was acting absolutely weird and defiant to anything pertaining to God and was outright cursing Him. A considered “holy man” of a native village was asked to come to exorcise the person. After he had arrived and entered the room of the person to be exorcised, the “holy man” requested a bowl with water. I saw him pray over the bowl of water and sprinkle flower petals on the water, all the while praying with folded hands and making movements of bowing deeply with his upper body and head. The person possessed was tied down to the posts of the bed and held down by several persons. The cursing of God continued by the possessed.

After a while the holy man told the attending that something will happen but please do not react. My uncle, the owner of the house, saw a mouse running across the room. His immediate reaction was to go after it. He slipped off his shoe, and hit the mouse with his shoe while it was in a corner of the room. My uncle thought for sure that he killed the varmint, but there was no sign of the mouse anywhere.

The person exorcised became well again; however, my uncle was dead within one week of an infection of the eyes that the doctors from a neighboring hospital could not heal.

BC, I am directing you here to a Catholic link, which has, Lo and Behold, as one of the subjects this morning the matter of cases to be discerned where seemingly “deceased” manifest themselves.

http://www.spiritdaily.com/deceased1.htm

As a btw, this weekend a conversation with a friend turned to the subject that before the death of her husband she had asked him that after he dies to please be around for awhile to console her and give her advice. She related that after he had gone, she could sense his presence and inwardly heard his consoling words. Then she got the announcement from him You have to let go of me; it is getting harder to come and visit you. She said she told him I understand, yes you can go, and thank you for having stayed with me. She further related that since then she does not feel his presence anymore.

Now all this can be said to be “subjective” and again chalked up to “anecdotal.” But I’d say if it was real to the person and it helped her pull through her difficult times then that is all that really matters.

[markd]

Did anyone, besides yourself, witness this event?Nope.

[hben]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?

I think the same thing about ghosts that I do about vampires, werewolves or martians. They are fun to watch in the movies or to tell stories about around a campfire. But they are not real, and we should make sure that our children know that from an early age. Demons are fallen angels, that is a whole different can of worms. They are real, but the Bible never gives them as much power as Hollywood does. They have no power at all over a child of God.

[LeroyBrown]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?

I believe in the Holy Ghost and His work.

I believe in angels and demons and that people confuse them based merely off of perception and not on whether or not they bring glory to God and are about His kingdom.

[Gem]

I believe in Ghost as well. I have seen two so far in my life time.
I have one in my house where I live at now. He shows up a couple times a year in the summer. He is a little old man, dressed in a tan night gown like they wore in the Early 19 hundreds. he also has a night cap on his head.
He is toothless, has white hair, his sock hat is an off white color with a ball on a tail in the back. He always has a smile on his face, and is barefooted.
He looks to be very friendly.

Anyway, he comes down the stairs sort of in a hurry, and starts down the hall. then you don't see him any more after that. I believe he is going to the kitchen because he is headed that way.

Also, King Saul had Samuel called up from the grave and talked with him.
Hasn't anyone ever read it in the bible. If not you will find it in

I Samuel 28: 7 Thur 21.

[Ron Jon]

Nope.Typical.

[Ron Jon]

I believe in Ghost as well. I have seen two so far in my life time.
I have one in my house where I live at now. He shows up a couple times a year in the summer. He is a little old man, dressed in a tan night gown like they wore in the Early 19 hundreds. he also has a night cap on his head.
He is toothless, has white hair, his sock hat is an off white color with a ball on a tail in the back. He always has a smile on his face, and is barefooted.
He looks to be very friendly.

Anyway, he comes down the stairs sort of in a hurry, and starts down the hall. then you don't see him any more after that. I believe he is going to the kitchen because he is headed that way.

Also, King Saul had Samuel called up from the grave and talked with him.
Hasn't anyone ever read it in the bible. If not you will find it in

I Samuel 28: 7 Thur 21.The witch had no power to call up the dead. If it truly was Samuel's spirit, it was by God's will he appeared and no other.

[Constantine the Great]

Then you are not reading the Hebrew. They are Seraphim. The word it self, Seraph, means "burn."

The angels in that chapter are fiery angels, or Seraphim.

Upon a further reading, the fiery angels in Isaiah, called Seraphim, are not in that chapter of Psalms, where messengers of fire are mentioned.

Let's say, for the moment, that they are different. (They might be.) I still don't see the problem driving the question.

Angels can be fiery. I have no problem with this concept.

The Orthodox Church wholeheartedly agrees. Of course we took the cue from you, but we still agree.

[Constantine the Great]

The witch had no power to call up the dead. If it truly was Samuel's spirit, it was by God's will he appeared and no other.

Why do you say that? Pharoes wizards had power to do certain things, perform things that defied explanation. Did God grant them the power to do so?

[Scruffy]

I think that ghosts are souls of people who are in one of the many levels of purgatory. They are not yet ready to enter heaven. Some also, are evil spirits and demons roaming the Earth.

I think once in awhile God allows us a glimpse of souls in purgatory, to remind us to pray for them. Souls in purgatory need our prayers for they can't pray for themselves. Once you die and your time is up, you can no longer do good works or pray to make reparations for your sins, so you suffer in purgatory for a time. You need to be purged of all inclinations to sin before you can enter God's kingdom. Those who have loved ones who passed away should continue to pray for them, just in case they are not at rest in heaven yet.

[Scruffy]

I believe in ghosts. It is not something I can explain, just something I have seen. What do people say about the evidence that people like TAPS (Ghost Hunters) have collected? They have video, audio, touch, smell. I don't think any of them have tasted a ghost, but they have evidence from every other sense. Watch the episode about Eastern State Penn and tell me any other explanation for the shadow figure. Or how else Jason could have a hand print on his back when no one else was around. Or how their sound guy had his equipment knock him on his back and how he could not breathe at the armory.

I personally have seen and experienced things that I cannot explain, at all. I have video and audio of a woman walking through the basement at the General's house on base and have heard screams at the cliff where Geronimo jumped. I have heard sobbing outside Quanah Parker's jail cell. And there is no way to explain the woman I saw at the Red Cross building in town- she was running through the tunnels that go from the Red Cross building to the Lawtonian Hotel carrying something.

I love Ghost Hunters! It's one of my favorite shows. I like the fact that when they go in to investigate they try to debunk, they don't easily fall for anything. My favorite episode was the Birdcage, in Tombstone Arizona. That place is haunted!!

[Ron Jon]

Why do you say that? Pharoes wizards had power to do certain things, perform things that defied explanation. Did God grant them the power to do so?
Whatever tricks Phaoroah's wizards performed, I don't believe they were from God. And I don't recall reading in the Bible where they ever called up a spirit from the dead. If God is in control, then it is He who assigns the placement of the "dearly departed". Can a mere mortal snatch a soul from heaven and force him to appear on earth? Can a mere mortal man snatch a soul from hell and force him to appear on earth? I don't believe so. And it is unsupported by the Scriptures.

[Harmonious]

The Orthodox Church wholeheartedly agrees. Of course we took the cue from you, but we still agree.
It's a beautiful thing. :hug:

[Constantine the Great]

Whatever tricks Phaoroah's wizards performed, I don't believe they were from God. And I don't recall reading in the Bible where they ever called up a spirit from the dead. If God is in control, then it is He who assigns the placement of the "dearly departed". Can a mere mortal snatch a soul from heaven and force him to appear on earth? Can a mere mortal man snatch a soul from hell and force him to appear on earth? I don't believe so. And it is unsupported by the Scriptures.

So what do you make of Deut 18:11? Especially where it states

...or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

The Septuagint text is :

...ἐπερωτῶν τοὺς νεκρούς

Literally, someone who asks (consults) of the dead.

Why this admonition if there weren't those who could actually perform the task?

I'd also like to read Harmonious's opinion of Deut 18:11 from the original Hebrew language perspective.

[Constantine the Great]

To further add;

While yes, God is in control, God also grants us ALOT of leeway. He did not want Adam and Eve to acquire certain knowledge, but He did not hide the means of acquiring it from them. He could have NOT planted the Tree in the garden, He could have placed it atop Everest, but He didn't.
God could have imposed His will on the Jews in the OT and kept them in line 24/7/365. But He didn't. God could forcefully bring us all to Him by coming down Himself in all His glory and that would end all doubt whatsoever, but He doesn't. This is not a defect with God, it is a God who does not impose Himself on creation. He patiently waits for us.

[Harmonious]

So what do you make of Deut 18:11? Especially where it states

...or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

The Septuagint text is :

...ἐπερωτῶν τοὺς νεκρούς

Literally, someone who asks (consults) of the dead.

Why this admonition if there weren't those who could actually perform the task?

I'd also like to read Harmonious's opinion of Deut 18:11 from the original Hebrew language perspective.
:)

From everything I've learned about it, including a simple reading of it from the text, the prohibition being described refers to divination and necromancy. The things being described are different forms of attempting to read the future or of calling up spirits of the dead.

If ghosts are already out and about, there is nothing that says a person can't talk to them. But if the individual soul is where it belongs in the Next World, LEAVE IT WHERE IT BELONGS.

I am insanely lucky to have a Rabbi who enjoys science fiction and fantasy, as the concepts involved always involve interesting topics.

As a fan of Harry Potter and other such things, the Rabbi would be familiar with the concepts of "what comprises magic that is forbidden?"

Now, I couldn't tell you, as the "science" of performing magic has been lost to us, but if you read the right passages in Tractate Avoda Zara, you would learn that it was permitted to learn all of the forms of magic, even if it was only to be able to recognize what is forbidden when it was presented before the Court.

Still, because no one is sure what constitutes the magic that was forbidden (in today's day and age... the details have been as lost to the Jews as which insects are actually Kosher to eat), it is assumed that ALL magic is forbidden, and it is good to err on the side of caution.

Performing miracles by using God's various names, or even names of angels, but realizing that the power to use them only comes from God, is thought to be a kosher form of magic, known to Kabbalists. (Not to the people in those nonsensical Kabbalah centers ((like where Madonna learned :rolleyes: )) that miss the message by trying to get to the mysticism without the knowledge of the Torah that it is supposed to highlight, but REAL Kabbalists, like Nachmanides, and respected Rabbis who KNEW what they were doing.)

Performing miracles by using names of demons, or any such thing that assumes power belongs to entities other than God is absolutely forbidden. But that would not actually fall under the legal category of the aforementioned verse. Instead, it would fall under the category of Idol Worship.

There is far more to this topic than I know, but I think that should work for now.

[Constantine the Great]

:)

From everything I've learned about it, including a simple reading of it from the text, the prohibition being described refers to divination and necromancy. The things being described are different forms of attempting to read the future or of calling up spirits of the dead.

If ghosts are already out and about, there is nothing that says a person can't talk to them. But if the individual soul is where it belongs in the Next World, LEAVE IT WHERE IT BELONGS.

I am insanely lucky to have a Rabbi who enjoys science fiction and fantasy, as the concepts involved always involve interesting topics.

As a fan of Harry Potter and other such things, the Rabbi would be familiar with the concepts of "what comprises magic that is forbidden?"

Now, I couldn't tell you, as the "science" of performing magic has been lost to us, but if you read the right passages in Tractate Avoda Zara, you would learn that it was permitted to learn all of the forms of magic, even if it was only to be able to recognize what is forbidden when it was presented before the Court.

Still, because no one is sure what constitutes the magic that was forbidden (in today's day and age... the details have been as lost to the Jews as which insects are actually Kosher to eat), it is assumed that ALL magic is forbidden, and it is good to err on the side of caution.

Performing miracles by using God's various names, or even names of angels, but realizing that the power to use them only comes from God, is thought to be a kosher form of magic, known to Kabbalists. (Not to the people in those nonsensical Kabbalah centers ((like where Madonna learned :rolleyes: )) that miss the message by trying to get to the mysticism without the knowledge of the Torah that it is supposed to highlight, but REAL Kabbalists, like Nachmanides, and respected Rabbis who KNEW what they were doing.)

Performing miracles by using names of demons, or any such thing that assumes power belongs to entities other than God is absolutely forbidden. But that would not actually fall under the legal category of the aforementioned verse. Instead, it would fall under the category of Idol Worship.

There is far more to this topic than I know, but I think that should work for now.


This sort of falls in line with my ideas regarding such topics. Anything God creates does not exist in a vacuum, including such knowledge as you described. The knowledge exists, as does our capacity to acquire and eventually understand and use it. The problem lies in when, how and why we acquire and use it which is something humanity has been mostly terrible at. Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed near us, to be learned eventually. Architecture to build skyscrapers as opposed to the Tower of Babel which was an attempt to reach the glory of God. The "devil" is always in the details.

ETA: As to ghosts, my speculation would be it's those who were just too attached to this world (things, events, people) to know enough to leave it when they pass. Thoughts?

[nofear2]

Sigh....Superstitions....Angels yes, but ghosts? I'll believe it when I see it.

[Harmonious]

Sigh....Superstitions....Angels yes, but ghosts? I'll believe it when I see it.
Fair enough.

[Rurudyne]

My 2 cents worth of speculation to the OP.

After the very first murder, God tells Cain that his brother's blood is calling out to His from the ground. He did not say that Abel's spirit was calling out but that his blood was. Since men (and women) are not insignificant beings (like a bug), it may be possible that the trauma or even sheer injustice of a horrific death does indeed leave something tangible behind even if the spirit of the man does not remain. As such, ghost and such might represent especially powerful manifestations of what God is aware of as a matter of course.

To be especially morbid, it may be that this sort of effect has significance for why women who have had abortions sometimes have issues that those who simply miscarried do not.

[byzantine catholic]

I believe in 3 kinds of ghosts: the sad, weepy, and neutral spirits which are in my opinion spirits in Purgatory, the good spirits who are our relatives in heaven passing God's word to us, and the evil, dangerous type which are demons in Hell.:)

[Fig Tree]

The dead are asleep in their graves, with a few notable exeptions. (Enoch, Elijah, few others) Ghosts, perceived by most as the souls of the dead wandering the earth, is deception. These "ghosts" are demons, posing as the departed to deceive people into accepting the notion that the dead can indeed rise from their graves, and in many instances, communicate/interact with the living. Spiritualism is one of Satan's greatest deceptions...



I agree with you optrader somewhat. There is a realm outside our understanding and our view that is a living world beyond what we see. Another dimension or what have you...it is clear from many stories in the old testament, that there is even battles that are waged against the forces of good and evil such as the story in Daniel 10 describing the appearance of an angel to give Daniel the revelation of the End Times, and unseen battle in which the Archangel Michael was holding the King of Persia (a powerful evil spirit or demon at bay)...

13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come;
21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

John spoke of the spirits and how to test them in 1 John 4:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Satan is the great deceiver, yet the spirit can be tested, if it fails to acknowledge Jesus is flesh from God, it is an evil spirit. In the realm of good and evil, there is no neutrality in the dealings of God. You are with him wholly, or against him.

[Gray]

Jus' wanderin. What do ya think of ghosts? Spirits or demons?

They do not exist.

[Fig Tree]

Also, King Saul had Samuel called up from the grave and talked with him.
Hasn't anyone ever read it in the bible. If not you will find it in

I Samuel 28: 7 Thur 21.

I would not call it much of a talk. Samuel was not very happy, but still offered a word of encouragement, at least Saul's sons would be with Samuel. This definately lends itself to be asleep in the grave. I truly believe that it is posible to conjure up the spirits and such, yet that is a realm that we can neither understand nor control, so its my feeling its best left alone until we are in it.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"


16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?
17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David.
18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today.
19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."