So Many Questions for Charismatics....

[tracifish]

....I don't know where to start...

When I was attending a 'New Life' church, we did something called I.H.O.P. I was so exited for it because I love to pray...and loved the idea of having prayer go on 24 hours a day. It fit me perfectly, because sometimes I used to break out singing in my prayers, whether it be praise or intercession...and I had never felt so close to God.

So my first question is: Have you ever heard of 'Harp and Bowl'?

[RayMan]

Nope.

[tracifish]

Nope.

Okay.

Do you mind if I ask how you feel about Joyce Meyers? I used to watch her all the time...and I even know some Baptists that watch her and read her books.

[Ron Jon]

I.H.O.P.? :confused: The only I.H.O.P that I'm familiar with is the ones serving breakfast. :)

[RayMan]

International House of Prayer.

Wiki broke?

[tracifish]

I.H.O.P.? :confused: The only I.H.O.P that I'm familiar with is the ones serving breakfast. :)

Well, it's that too....but at the New Life church, I.H.O.P meant 'International House of Prayer'.

[RayMan]

Okay.

Do you mind if I ask how you feel about Joyce Meyers? I used to watch her all the time...and I even know some Baptists that watch her and read her books.

From what little I have heard of Joyce over the years she seems pretty much basic Word of Faith with a preaching style and demeanor that works well in front of a live audience.

I give her kudos for being the first televangelist to turn over all requested financial info to Sen. Charles Grassley for his investigation into the top televangelists in the country. It is my understanding that her ministry made some changes in the way they handled their finances so they would be completely in lines with government regulations for a non-profit organization.

[tracifish]

From what little I have heard of Joyce over the years she seems pretty much basic Word of Faith with a preaching style and demeanor that works well in front of a live audience.

I give her kudos for being the first televangelist to turn over all requested financial info to Sen. Charles Grassley for his investigation into the top televangelists in the country. It is my understanding that her ministry made some changes in the way they handled their finances so they would be completely in lines with government regulations for a non-profit organization.

But...how are we to get around the fact that she is a woman?

[RayMan]

But...how are we to get around the fact that she is a woman?

I don't have to get around it. I don't have a problem with it.

Next question.

[RayMan]

Traci,
About the woman preacher question. Here is a little something I posted in the
Ask a Pentecostal thread a few months ago.



Women In Ministry: What Did Paul Really Teach?
Part 1



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To get at the truth behind this mystery we will need to delve somewhat into the Greek text of 1 Tim 2 and also compare the actions of Paul with the interpretations some people put on his writings in 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14. If he really meant to say that he did not believe there was any place for women to preach, pray, and prophesy in the church then he had major schizophrenic problems because throughout his ministry he allowed them to do all three and commended several of them for it in his writings.

The biggest stumbling block to understanding Paul’s teaching on women in ministry is the failure of many people to rightly divide the Greek texts of 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14. Paul was not talking about men and women in general in these two passages of scripture, he was speaking to married couples and the need for the wife to be in proper relationship to her husband, not usurping his authority. There is only one word for wife and women in the New Testament Greek text: Gune – where we get gyne as in gynecologist. Likewise, there is only one Greek word used for man or husband: Aner. You have to discern from the text whether Paul is talking about men and women in the generic or husband and wife in the specific. The context of 1 Tim 2 makes it blatantly clear that he is speaking to man and wife.

1 Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1 Tim 2:11 (Williams) I do not permit a married woman to practice teaching or domineering over a husband."

Vs 11 Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, The Hebrew - Greek Key Study Bible: (After showing from the Greek that this passage is speaking strictly to the Husband - Wife relationship) "It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church. 1 Tim. 2:11 should be translated "Let the wife learn (the direct imperative of the present tense which means continuously to learn at any time and at all times) in tranquility in her positioning under.

The word translated "in silence" is the noun HESUCHIA. In the N.T. it occurs in Acts 22:2; 2 Thess. 3:12 and 1 Tim. 2:11,12. It is unfortunate that it is translated as silence indicating muteness, the absence of talking. The adjective of the same word is HESUCHIOS, and it is used in 1 Tim. 2:2 and is translated with the word "peaceable," and in 1 Pet. 3:4, it is translated with the word "quiet." In both instances it means "tranquil, not disturbed." In Acts 21:14 it is translated as "ceased." In 1 Thess. 4:11, it is translated as "to be quiet."


He Concludes: "The correct meaning, therefore, of the word HESUCHIA in this text is not silence, but it is tranquility, not in a disturbing way." And: "What did Paul want to teach in I Tim. 2:11? It was that a wife should display a tranquil spirit in her attempt to learn."



Vs 12 Dr. Zodhiates H.G.K.S.B.: "Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be "But I suffer not a woman to teach" but "I suffer not a wife..." As Paul continues the discussion, the word GUNE is here used to contrast to ANER, "husband," and not "man" as the A.V. has it. GUNE in this verse must also be translated as "a wife" as in v. 11 Paul says, "I do not permit a wife to teach." The word for "teach" in Greek is the infinitive DIDASKEIN in the present tense which means to teach CONTINUOUSLY. The situation presented is that of the common presence of a wife and husband in the home or the assembly or anywhere else.

Paul says, "I do not want a wife to constantly teach." If she did, she would undermine her husband's position, giving the impression that she is the head of her husband, which is contrary to God's ordained order between husband and wife. A wife should place limitations on her own liberty in Christ in both her dress, her adornment and her speech. Paul does not want women to be drab or mute, but to be careful lest they go beyond the bonds of accepted propriety ..."

He Continues: "The word translated "to usurp authority" is the Greek word AUTHENTEIN or AUTHENTEO, and this is the only place in the N.T. that it occurs. Interestingly enough, in Classical Greek an AUTHENTES was an autocrat, a person who ruled even to the point of committing murder. In one instance, it referred to a murder of one of the same family. The noun AUTHENTIA means absolute sway or authority. In other words, a wife in her private or public life should not do anything to kill the position that her husband has been given by God. A wife should never be a usurper of the role of a husband or a father."



Quietness has to do with a quiet spirit, as opposed to a pushy, overbearing one. Paul was not closing the door for vocal ministry to all Christian woman, he was making it clear that he would not give up the floor to a P.M.C.W. with a hen-pecked mate. (P.M.C.W. - Power Mad Crazy Woman - a delightfully appropriate acronym my wife thought up!)

Gal 3:26-29 states emphatically that IN CHRIST there is neither Jew nor Greek (No racial distinction), neither slave nor free (No financial or social distinction), neither male nor female (No gender distinction), for we are all ONE in Christ Jesus.



WOMEN KEEP SILENCE IN THE CHURCHES?

1 Cor 12: 34 ¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Again we can see that Paul is addressing the husband wife specific scenario rather than the man women generic one. Notice he doesn’t say anything about it being a shame for women to preach, pray or prophesy in the church, he says it is a shame for them to interrupt church services with questions about what is going and being said. His discourse is centered around the need for order in church services regardless of who might be making a disturbance.

It would be good to keep in mind that in a first century church filled with people from the lower economic strata the wives in question would probably not have had the benefits of any education or life-experiences beyond that of keeping house and bearing and raising children. Another item of interest is that the early churches generally borrowed the Jewish synagogue custom of having the women seated on one side of the room and the men on the other. It is not much of a disrturbance for a women sitting next to her husband to lean against him and whisper a question in his ear. It is a radically different matter for me to yell across the room: "Hey, what did the preacher mean when he said that just now?"




Dr. Zodhiates G.H.K.S.B.: "The verb LALEIN, the infinitive of LALEO, has been used exclusively in this whole discussion in speaking both in foreign languages and also particularly in the speaking of the unknown tongue of Corinth. The reason he used LALEO and not LEGO is because LALEO refers to the mere utterance of sounds without the speaker necessarily knowing what he is saying or others understanding. LEGO on the other hand is saying something which is the product of one’s thought.

Naturally no thinking person will speak without others understanding him. Therefore, Paul uses LALEO because among the Corinthians stress was placed upon the languages themselves and not necessarily the content of the speech involved. Since Paul in I Cor 11:5 assumes that a women prays or prophesies, and this cannot refer to only a restricted group, then the word LALEO in 1 Cor 14:34-35, if taken to be speaking generally, would contradict I Cor 11:5.

Dr..Zohdiates continues: "One cannot take Paul's indirect imperative in 1 Cor 14:34, "Let your women keep silence in the churches," as absolute. It must be taken in conjunction with what follows: "for it is not permitted unto them to speak." The word "speak" as we explained is LALEIN which should be taken to mean "uttering sounds that are incoherent and which are not understood by others." Paul says that instead of having anything like that, it is better to have silence.

Paul uses the same word for "keeping silence" in v. 28 when a man speaks in an unknown tongue without an interpreter. Also the same imperative SIGATO, "let him keep silent," is used in v. 30, "if anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace." Actually that phrase, "let him hold his peace," is the same word meaning, "let him keep silent." That is a man, not a woman. What Paul is saying is that only one man must speak at a time. If two speak at once, there will be confusion."



Dr. Zohdiates concludes: "Every time one of these three actions appear on the scene during a worship service, the person should hush, be it a man or a woman. In the first two instances it concerns men and in the last women. (1) if a man speaks in an unknown language without anyone interpreting into a language that others can understand; (2) if a man speaks and somebody else gets up to speak, and (3) if a woman begins to act like the Delphic priestesses speaking in an unknown tongue.

Under no circumstances does the injuction of Paul in 1 Cor 14:34 indicate that women should not utter a word at anytime during the church service. It is not men versus women or women versus men, but it is confusion versus order. It makes no difference who causes the confusion. It is as bad if produced by men as it is when produced by women."

[RayMan]

Followed by:

Women In Ministry: What Did Paul Really Teach?

Part 2

PAUL DID ALLOW WOMEN TO TEACH

Acts 18: 1 ¶ After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.


Acts 18: 18 ¶ And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.

Acts 18: 24 ¶ And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

In Acts 18:2 Paul meets up with Aquila and Priscilla in Corinth and stays with them for at least 18 months (vs.11). By vs.18 It's Priscilla and Aquila. In vs.26 Priscilla and Aquila take Apollos aside and teach him.


(AMP) "When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him with them and expounded to him the way of God more definitely and accurately."

Barclay, Goodspeed, Wuest, NIV-NASB-KNOX-INT.GREEK-ENG.N.T. all list her first.

Acts 18:26 Gk. Text: Priscilla and then Aquila - most modern translations have it that way. She is mentioned first in Acts 18:18,26; Rom. 16:3 & 2 Tim 4:19. I Cor 16:19 is the only exception.

Rom 16: 3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 4: 19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.

1 Cor 16: 19 ¶ The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.


Priscilla became a teacher to Apollos who was according to Acts 18:24 "An eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures." She explained to him the word of God more accurately! Most scholars agree that the fact that her name is put before Aquila's 3 times out of 5 signifies that she was the chief instructor.

Dean Henry Alford (Translator of Gr.New Testament):
"There are certain indications that he himself (Aquila) was rather the ready and zealous patron than the teacher, and this latter work, or a great share of it; seems to have belonged to his wife, Prisca or Priscilla. She is ever named with him, even in Acts 18:26 where the instruction of Apollos is described."

Prof. Harnack of Berlin:
"In any case she must have been associated with and more distinguished than her husband. That is verified from Acts 18:26 and Ro 16:3, convincingly. For according to the former passage not only Aquila, but she also instructed Apollos. One is allowed to infer from it that she was the CHIEF INSTRUCTOR, otherwise she would scarcely have been mentioned. And in the Roman Epistle Paul called her and Aquila -not the latter only- his 'fellow labourers in Christ Jesus.' This expression, not so very frequently employed by Paul signifies much. By its, use Priscilla and Aquila are legitimized official Evangelists and Teachers."

Historical facts, not recorded in the Bible attest to Priscilla's fame.

Tertullian records:
"By the holy Prisca, the gospel is preached." Also, it has been suggested that Priscilla was the author of Hebrews, but this suggestion is not supported by proof. (Quotes above from "All The Women of The Bible")

Rom.16:3 She is Paul's fellow-labourer in Christ Jesus. Not only does Paul give her thanks but all the churches of the gentiles. vs.4 She co-pastors with her husband.


PHOEBE THE DEACONESS

Rom 16: 1 ¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea:

vs.1 Phoebe (possibly the carrier of the letter) a "Deacon" of the church in Cenchrea. DIAKONOS: Minister. Paul says to receive her in a worthy manner and to assist her in whatever business she has need of. DIAKONOS: Same as when Paul gives Timothy guidelines for Deacons. This same word is used when Paul says in 1 Cor.3:5,"who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase."

It is used in 2 Cor 3:5,6 "Our sufficiency is from God, who also has made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter, but if the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Also in Acts 6:4 When the twelve say, "We will give ourselves continually to the ministry (deaconing) of the Word."


JUNIA THE APOSTLE

Rom 16: 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

The Church Father Chrysostom Writes:
"And indeed to be Apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great enconium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the apellation of Apostle." (Don Williams: The Apostle Paul and Women in the Churches.)

An Apostle is a person in a position of leadership and authority in the Church. Junia was an apostle of note.



VARIOUS WOMEN IN N.T. MINISTRY

Acts 21: 8 ¶ And the next day we that were of Paul’s company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

TCNT: "Had the gift of prophecy."

WEY: "They were Prophetesses";

PHI. "All of whom spoke by the spirit of God."

BECK: "Who spoke God's word."



Prophesy: propheteuo "To foretell events, to speak under inspiration fo exercise the prophetic office, to be a Prophet."



Eusibius the historian said that these young women traveled and evangelized throughout all the known world, preaching in parks and in public buildings and halls" (Jerry Cook, Women in The Church)


In Philippians 4 Paul mentions several people as fellow-laborers with him in the Gospel, including Euodius and Syntuyche, "These women who labored with me in the Gospel."

Let us recap all the women preachers associated with Paul. Keep in mind that he did not tell any of them to shutup and sit down but rather commended their ministry.

Woman Ministry


Priscilla Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist

Junia: Outstanding Apostle

Phillip’s Daughters: Prophetesses.

Phoebe: A Deacon

Euodius and Syntyche: Exhorters. (Rom.12:8)



YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY

Acts 2: 14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Prophesy: propheteuo - to speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office.

W.E. Vines: propheteuo - "is used with the PRIMARY MEANING of TELLING FORTH THE DIVINE COUNSELS (Rev. 19:10 "The testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY).



WOMEN PROPHESYING IN CHURCH SERVICES

1 Cor 11: 1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Once again we see that the only limitation Paul is putting on women has to do with the husband / wife authority and respect issue, not with women in general. I want you to notice that Paul expected women to speak by the Spirit of God in church services. Paul allowed women to preach, teach, pray, prophesy and pastor.

[tracifish]

I don't have to get around it. I don't have a problem with it.

Next question.

I didn't have a problem with it either....but there are some bible verses:

1Tm:2:11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Tm:2:12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Tm:2:13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Tm:2:14: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Tm:2:15: Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

(I don't know what the last verse means).

[RayMan]

Did you read the two lengthy posts above yours which deal with these verses?

[tracifish]

Followed by:

Women In Ministry: What Did Paul Really Teach?

Part 2

PAUL DID ALLOW WOMEN TO TEACH

Acts 18: 1 ¶ After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.


Acts 18: 18 ¶ And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.

Acts 18: 24 ¶ And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

In Acts 18:2 Paul meets up with Aquila and Priscilla in Corinth and stays with them for at least 18 months (vs.11). By vs.18 It's Priscilla and Aquila. In vs.26 Priscilla and Aquila take Apollos aside and teach him.


(AMP) "When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him with them and expounded to him the way of God more definitely and accurately."

Barclay, Goodspeed, Wuest, NIV-NASB-KNOX-INT.GREEK-ENG.N.T. all list her first.

Acts 18:26 Gk. Text: Priscilla and then Aquila - most modern translations have it that way. She is mentioned first in Acts 18:18,26; Rom. 16:3 & 2 Tim 4:19. I Cor 16:19 is the only exception.

Rom 16: 3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 4: 19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.

1 Cor 16: 19 ¶ The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.


Priscilla became a teacher to Apollos who was according to Acts 18:24 "An eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures." She explained to him the word of God more accurately! Most scholars agree that the fact that her name is put before Aquila's 3 times out of 5 signifies that she was the chief instructor.

Dean Henry Alford (Translator of Gr.New Testament):
"There are certain indications that he himself (Aquila) was rather the ready and zealous patron than the teacher, and this latter work, or a great share of it; seems to have belonged to his wife, Prisca or Priscilla. She is ever named with him, even in Acts 18:26 where the instruction of Apollos is described."

Prof. Harnack of Berlin:
"In any case she must have been associated with and more distinguished than her husband. That is verified from Acts 18:26 and Ro 16:3, convincingly. For according to the former passage not only Aquila, but she also instructed Apollos. One is allowed to infer from it that she was the CHIEF INSTRUCTOR, otherwise she would scarcely have been mentioned. And in the Roman Epistle Paul called her and Aquila -not the latter only- his 'fellow labourers in Christ Jesus.' This expression, not so very frequently employed by Paul signifies much. By its, use Priscilla and Aquila are legitimized official Evangelists and Teachers."

Historical facts, not recorded in the Bible attest to Priscilla's fame.

Tertullian records:
"By the holy Prisca, the gospel is preached." Also, it has been suggested that Priscilla was the author of Hebrews, but this suggestion is not supported by proof. (Quotes above from "All The Women of The Bible")

Rom.16:3 She is Paul's fellow-labourer in Christ Jesus. Not only does Paul give her thanks but all the churches of the gentiles. vs.4 She co-pastors with her husband.


PHOEBE THE DEACONESS

Rom 16: 1 ¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea:

vs.1 Phoebe (possibly the carrier of the letter) a "Deacon" of the church in Cenchrea. DIAKONOS: Minister. Paul says to receive her in a worthy manner and to assist her in whatever business she has need of. DIAKONOS: Same as when Paul gives Timothy guidelines for Deacons. This same word is used when Paul says in 1 Cor.3:5,"who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase."

It is used in 2 Cor 3:5,6 "Our sufficiency is from God, who also has made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter, but if the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Also in Acts 6:4 When the twelve say, "We will give ourselves continually to the ministry (deaconing) of the Word."


JUNIA THE APOSTLE

Rom 16: 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

The Church Father Chrysostom Writes:
"And indeed to be Apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great enconium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the apellation of Apostle." (Don Williams: The Apostle Paul and Women in the Churches.)

An Apostle is a person in a position of leadership and authority in the Church. Junia was an apostle of note.



VARIOUS WOMEN IN N.T. MINISTRY

Acts 21: 8 ¶ And the next day we that were of Paul’s company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

TCNT: "Had the gift of prophecy."

WEY: "They were Prophetesses";

PHI. "All of whom spoke by the spirit of God."

BECK: "Who spoke God's word."



Prophesy: propheteuo "To foretell events, to speak under inspiration fo exercise the prophetic office, to be a Prophet."



Eusibius the historian said that these young women traveled and evangelized throughout all the known world, preaching in parks and in public buildings and halls" (Jerry Cook, Women in The Church)


In Philippians 4 Paul mentions several people as fellow-laborers with him in the Gospel, including Euodius and Syntuyche, "These women who labored with me in the Gospel."

Let us recap all the women preachers associated with Paul. Keep in mind that he did not tell any of them to shutup and sit down but rather commended their ministry.

Woman Ministry


Priscilla Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist

Junia: Outstanding Apostle

Phillip’s Daughters: Prophetesses.

Phoebe: A Deacon

Euodius and Syntyche: Exhorters. (Rom.12:8)



YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY

Acts 2: 14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Prophesy: propheteuo - to speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office.

W.E. Vines: propheteuo - "is used with the PRIMARY MEANING of TELLING FORTH THE DIVINE COUNSELS (Rev. 19:10 "The testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY).



WOMEN PROPHESYING IN CHURCH SERVICES

1 Cor 11: 1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Once again we see that the only limitation Paul is putting on women has to do with the husband / wife authority and respect issue, not with women in general. I want you to notice that Paul expected women to speak by the Spirit of God in church services. Paul allowed women to preach, teach, pray, prophesy and pastor.

Okay. Thank you. It is alot to read, but I need to read it. So, thank you.

It still seems that it is Eve that was more easily deceived, so there is something in us (women) that is tempted by forbidden knowledge. We lust to know things that are secret to God...and we are more easily tempted to seek knowledge from other sources. Not that some men are not tempted the same way...it's just that Eve was the first one tempted.

[tracifish]

Did you read the two lengthy posts above yours which deal with these verses?

Not yet, but I'm working on it....after I refill my coffee.

[RayMan]

Okay. Thank you. It is alot to read, but I need to read it. So, thank you.

It still seems that it is Eve that was more easily deceived, so there is something in us (women) that is tempted by forbidden knowledge. We lust to know things that are secret to God...and we are more easily tempted to seek knowledge from other sources. Not that some men are not tempted the same way...it's just that Eve was the first one tempted.

Adam and Eve = husband and wife relationship. Not simple male/female relationship.

When Paul talks about women keeping quiet and/or not having authority over men he is talking about married couples not women who are called to ministry.

[Tim]

Adam and Eve = husband and wife relationship. Not simple male/female relationship.

When Paul talks about women keeping quiet and/or not having authority over men he is talking about married couples not women who are called to ministry.

A married woman who keeps quiet? Really!? :))

..... where's Koushi? :whistle:

[RayMan]

A married woman who keeps quiet? Really!? :))

..... where's Koushi? :whistle:

Paul doesn't say they DID keep quiet.

[An American Patriot]

Okay.

Do you mind if I ask how you feel about Joyce Meyers? I used to watch her all the time...and I even know some Baptists that watch her and read her books.

I have heard a lot of great things from her. I've picked up a lot from her teachings.

[Ron Jon]

International House of Prayer.

Wiki broke?I'm trying to ween myself from it. One day at a time. :pray:

[tracifish]

I have heard a lot of great things from her. I've picked up a lot from her teachings.

I remember she used to make me laugh...other than that, I believe she taught some things that checked out with the bible and other things that could be found in the bible, but not with enough verses to be certain of the context.

One example: she said Jesus went to hell....but the verse (I think it's in Peter) was rather too vague for me to come to the same conclusion.

Thankfully, I was a Berean and my favorite version has always been the King James. (because it was the most Shakespearean).

[An American Patriot]

I remember she used to make me laugh...other than that, I believe she taught some things that checked out with the bible and other things that could be found in the bible, but not with enough verses to be certain of the context.

One example: she said Jesus went to hell....but the verse (I think it's in Peter) was rather too vague for me to come to the same conclusion.

Thankfully, I was a Berean and my favorite version has always been the King James. (because it was the most Shakespearean).

Is hell a punishment for sinners?

[Ron Jon]

Vs 12 Dr. Zodhiates H.G.K.S.B.: "Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be "But I suffer not a woman to teach" but "I suffer not a wife..." As Paul continues the discussion, the word GUNE is here used to contrast to ANER, "husband," and not "man" as the A.V. has it. GUNE in this verse must also be translated as "a wife" as in v. 11 Paul says, "I do not permit a wife to teach." The word for "teach" in Greek is the infinitive DIDASKEIN in the present tense which means to teach CONTINUOUSLY. The situation presented is that of the common presence of a wife and husband in the home or the assembly or anywhere else.While I respect Dr. Zodhiates work, I have to question his interpretation here simply because I cannot find this interpretation in any other Bible version. I suppose you could argue it is implied since Paul uses the example of Adam and Eve (husband and wife).

[Lie Sniper]

Did you read the two lengthy posts above yours which deal with these verses?

:clap: Well presented Ray!:clap:

I had this same debate awhile back. Although I think I proved my argument, it sure would have been nice to have you around.

I also included Deborah, the prophetess and only female judge in my presentation. :whistle:

[tracifish]

Is hell a punishment for sinners?

That's a loaded question. I think I know where you're going with that. All I know is Jesus said, "It is finished".

And it doesn't say anything about him going to hell before saying "It is finished.".

We are sinners. Jesus never sinned. Though he took our sins upon himself, I do not think it was necessary for him to go to hell. If it were, the bible would have said more about that.

[An American Patriot]

That's a loaded question. I think I know where you're going with that. All I know is Jesus said, "It is finished".

And it doesn't say anything about him going to hell before saying "It is finished.".

We are sinners. Jesus never sinned. Though he took our sins upon himself, I do not think it was necessary for him to go to hell. If it were, the bible would have said more about that.


Well if Jesus paid the entire price, and he didn't go to Hell, then Hell isn't part of the price.

So nobody has to worry about it.

[tracifish]

Well if Jesus paid the entire price, and he didn't go to Hell, then Hell isn't part of the price.

So nobody has to worry about it.

No. Sinners go to hell. That does not mean that Jesus had to go to hell on our behalf.

[Ron Jon]

Well if Jesus paid the entire price, and he didn't go to Hell, then Hell isn't part of the price.

So nobody has to worry about it.For the wages of sin is death. Jesus died on the cross. So what does this have to do with hell?

[tracifish]

For the wages of sin is death. Jesus died on the cross. So what does this have to do with hell?

Thank you. :hug:

...but some people might read this and think that sinners don't go to hell.

[tracifish]

Let me explain 'Harp and Bowl' to you. If anyone tries to introduce in your church, I would recommend you do not buy it. 'Harp and Bowl' uses the Song of Solomon to take us places I don't think we are supposed to go.

[Ron Jon]

Let me explain 'Harp and Bowl' to you. If anyone tries to introduce in your church, I would recommend you do not buy it. 'Harp and Bowl' uses the Song of Solomon to take us places I don't think we are supposed to go.That kind of came out of left field. Who are you responding to?

[tracifish]

That kind of came out of left field. Who are you responding to?

It was in my opening post. I asked if they have heard of 'harp and Bowl'. So far, they haven't. I was exited about I.H.O.P. until the church brought in this 'Harp and Bowl'.

[RayMan]

Harp and Bowl - its name derived from Revelation 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%205:8&version=31) - is a type of worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship). It is music that is integrated into prayer, the "harp" representing the music and the "bowl" being representative the prayer of the saints (Christians) that are constantly going up like incense before the throne of God. In other words, prayer that is sung or spoken along with music. This type of worship is used in sustaining long periods of worship - for instance, the International House of Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_House_of_Prayer) in Kansas City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City,_Missouri) has used this method of worship to sustain a prayer meeting since September 1999.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp_and_bowl


I.H.O.P. is a remnant from the "Kansas City Prophets" of the '80s and '90s who caused a lot of division in Charismatic ranks. John Wimber tried to fold them into the Vineyard Churches Movement but that didn't turn out too well.

They are basically Latter Rain with a REAL strong emphasis on the prophet's ministry.

Bob Jones (Not the University guy) and Paul Cain were a couple of their big name guys you could google for more info.

[tracifish]

My next question:

Does your church have theosophic prayer? New Life did.

[tracifish]

Harp and Bowl - its name derived from Revelation 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%205:8&version=31) - is a type of worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship). It is music that is integrated into prayer, the "harp" representing the music and the "bowl" being representative the prayer of the saints (Christians) that are constantly going up like incense before the throne of God. In other words, prayer that is sung or spoken along with music. This type of worship is used in sustaining long periods of worship - for instance, the International House of Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_House_of_Prayer) in Kansas City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City,_Missouri) has used this method of worship to sustain a prayer meeting since September 1999.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp_and_bowl


I.H.O.P. is a remnant from the "Kansas City Prophets" of the '80s and '90s who caused a lot of division in Charismatic ranks. John Wimber tried to fold them into the Vineyard Churches Movement but that didn't turn out too well.

They are basically Latter Rain with a REAL strong emphasis on the prophet's ministry.

Bob Jones (Not the University guy) and Paul Cain were a couple of their big name guys you could google for more info.

Thank you. I did not know all that. At the time, I had never heard of the Kansas City Prophets, or anything like that. It was fun to sing the praises improvisitionally. I loved that! But when I bought the 'Harp and Bowl' booklet, some of the lyrics actually made me blush.

[3inOne]

Harp and Bowl - its name derived from Revelation 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%205:8&version=31) - is a type of worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship). It is music that is integrated into prayer, the "harp" representing the music and the "bowl" being representative the prayer of the saints (Christians) that are constantly going up like incense before the throne of God. In other words, prayer that is sung or spoken along with music. This type of worship is used in sustaining long periods of worship - for instance, the International House of Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_House_of_Prayer) in Kansas City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City,_Missouri) has used this method of worship to sustain a prayer meeting since September 1999.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp_and_bowl


I.H.O.P. is a remnant from the "Kansas City Prophets" of the '80s and '90s who caused a lot of division in Charismatic ranks. John Wimber tried to fold them into the Vineyard Churches Movement but that didn't turn out too well.

They are basically Latter Rain with a REAL strong emphasis on the prophet's ministry.

Bob Jones (Not the University guy) and Paul Cain were a couple of their big name guys you could google for more info.

RayMan,

The part of what you wrote about Harp and Bowl, reminded me of this link

http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/angels/angels.htm

that has as its subject the recordings of Angels singing during revivalist’s meetings.

Have patience when listening to the recordings. Let each of them run its course. Listen carefully as you will gradually hear extraordinary beautiful voices other than the singing of the worshippers join in. Awesome!

[tracifish]

RayMan,

The part of what you wrote about Harp and Bowl, reminded me of this link

http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/angels/angels.htm

that has as its subject the recordings of Angels singing during revivalist’s meetings.

Have patience when listening to the recordings. Let each of them run its course. Listen carefully as you will gradually hear extraordinary beautiful voices other than the singing of the worshippers join in. Awesome!

This tape is just a portion of a church service at the Carpenter 's Home Church in Lakeland, Florida, with visiting evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne.

Rodney Howard Browne...I've heard of him.

[Mikko]

But...how are we to get around the fact that she is a woman?
I know that is a problem for some folks, and I never have watched a full sermon by her, but one night I caught her closing prayer, and I really thought it was powerful.:)

[LeroyBrown]

....I don't know where to start...

When I was attending a 'New Life' church, we did something called I.H.O.P. I was so exited for it because I love to pray...and loved the idea of having prayer go on 24 hours a day. It fit me perfectly, because sometimes I used to break out singing in my prayers, whether it be praise or intercession...and I had never felt so close to God.

So my first question is: Have you ever heard of 'Harp and Bowl'?

I believe it is singing prayers.

[LeroyBrown]

Okay.

Do you mind if I ask how you feel about Joyce Meyers?

Name doesnt ring a bell.

[tracifish]

I know that is a problem for some folks, and I never have watched a full sermon by her, but one night I caught her closing prayer, and I really thought it was powerful.:)

I can't listen to female preachers anymore. Then again, I can't listen to most male preachers, either. My "pickens" are getting slimmer.

It's not easy being Berean. :((

[Mikko]

I can't listen to female preachers anymore. Then again, I can't listen to most male preachers, either. My "pickens" are getting slimmer.

It's not easy being Berean. :((
It may not be easy, but if anybody can do it, it is you!:)

[tracifish]

It may not be easy, but if anybody can do it, it is you!:)

That's one reason that I love you so much. You know how to make me laugh. :))

[Mikko]

That's one reason that I love you so much. You know how to make me laugh. :))
My pleasure, ma'am.:)

[tracifish]

My next question:

How many here would go (or have gone) to a Rodney Howard Browne revival meeting? I would have, if I had heard of him at the time...and had he been in the Twin Cities.

[tracifish]

My pleasure, ma'am.:)

:hug:

[Mikko]

My next question:

How many here would go (or have gone) to a Rodney Howard Browne revival meeting? I would have, if I had heard of him at the time...and had he been in the Twin Cities.
Is he the South African fellow who does the meetings where people experience healing through divine laughter?

[tracifish]

Is he the South African fellow who does the meetings where people experience healing through divine laughter?

Yes. That's him.

[Mikko]

Yes. That's him.

I've seen him on TV. I would go to one of his meetings if he came around my parts.

[tracifish]

I've seen him on TV. I would go to one of his meetings if he came around my parts.

I would not have guessed that about you. It kind of makes sense, though. I can see you trying something like that. You're an adventurous guy.

[Mikko]

I would not have guessed that about you. It kind of makes sense, though. I can see you trying something like that. You're an adventurous guy.
I don't have to share the inellectual structure of a group's theology to have a spiritual experience in the context of that group. I believe God graces any gathering of those earnestly seeking Him with His presence. Or Her presence (sorry, I couldn't resist).:)

[tracifish]

I don't have to share the inellectual structure of a group's theology to have a spiritual experience in the context of that group. I believe God graces any gathering of those earnestly seeking Him with His presence. Or Her presence (sorry, I couldn't resist).:)

:doh:

[Mikko]

:doh:
;)

[tracifish]

;)

I need to stop hitting my head. :wall: Ouch. That hurts. :wall: Ouch. That hurts. :wall: Ouch. That hurts! :wall::wall::wall:

[smyrna]

Tracifish, good evening. I've enjoyed listening to Joyce Meyers from time to time. Her thoughts are Biblically based. She may have been referring to this passage when she said that Jesus went to hell.

40for just as (AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23530AR))JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will (AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23530AS))the Son of Man be (AT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23530AT))three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

As far as Harp and Bowl or the other form of worship...I am a pretty boring man outwardly but inside I'm jumping and dancing for the Lord and I think he knows my heart.

As far as women in the ministry...I think back to when the desciples came back to the Lord after he sent them in pairs to preach and they tried to stop someone from preaching;
Mark 9:38-39 (King James Version)



38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

and

Luke 11:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&verse=23&version=49&context=verse)
" He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

[tracifish]

Tracifish, good evening. I've enjoyed listening to Joyce Meyers from time to time. Her thoughts are Biblically based. She may have been referring to this passage when she said that Jesus went to hell.

40for just as (AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23530AR))JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will (AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23530AS))the Son of Man be (AT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-23530AT))three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

As far as Harp and Bowl or the other form of worship...I am a pretty boring man outwardly but inside I'm jumping and dancing for the Lord and I think he knows my heart.

As far as women in the ministry...I think back to when the desciples came back to the Lord after he sent them in pairs to preach and they tried to stop someone from preaching;
Mark 9:38-39 (King James Version)



38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

and

Luke 11:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&verse=23&version=49&context=verse)
" He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

Good evening to you, smyrna,

The verse about the three days and three nights is not the verse I had in mind, but it is an interesting verse. I never would have thought of it as an apologetic for Jesus going into hell. I think of it as being in the earth or in a grave, as Jesus was literally in a grave.

I need to think about Mark 9:38-39....as I know there are healings that have nothing to do with the God of the bible. Some are in the name of Jesus, but it is another Jesus if the healer is saying anything that contradicts the bible.

As far as Joyce Meyers, as I recall, she said alot of things that agreed with the scriptures, then she said some things I did not believe could be 100% proven by scripture.

At the time, I accepted any bible version anyone chose to quote, though, myself, preferred the King James. I just thought it sounded better.

[tracifish]

Good morning, everybody. :)

[tracifish]

My next question: What is revival?

[An American Patriot]

My next question: What is revival?
re·viv·al (rĭ-vī'vəl) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n.


The act or an instance of reviving.
The condition of being revived.
A time of reawakened interest in religion.
A meeting or series of meetings for the purpose of reawakening religious faith, often characterized by impassioned preaching and public testimony.

A restoration to use, acceptance, activity, or vigor after a period of obscurity or quiescence.
A new presentation of an old play, movie, opera, ballet, or similar vehicle.

A time of reawakened interest in religion.
A meeting or series of meetings for the purpose of reawakening religious faith, often characterized by impassioned preaching and public testimony.

Law Renewal of validity or effect, as of a contract or judicial decision.

[tracifish]

re·viv·al (rĭ-vī'vəl) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n.


The act or an instance of reviving.
The condition of being revived.
A time of reawakened interest in religion.
A meeting or series of meetings for the purpose of reawakening religious faith, often characterized by impassioned preaching and public testimony.

A restoration to use, acceptance, activity, or vigor after a period of obscurity or quiescence.
A new presentation of an old play, movie, opera, ballet, or similar vehicle.

A time of reawakened interest in religion.
A meeting or series of meetings for the purpose of reawakening religious faith, often characterized by impassioned preaching and public testimony.

Law Renewal of validity or effect, as of a contract or judicial decision.


Okay. Have you been to any revival meetings? What is the coolest thing you've witnessed?

[tracifish]

I want you all to know, this is not the Spanish Inquisition.



How can you just leave me standing? :((

[Constantine the Great]

No. Sinners go to hell. That does not mean that Jesus had to go to hell on our behalf.

He went to hell on behalf of those who were there before His crucifixion and salvific sacrifice. He also went to hell to trample on death, using His death to do it.

[tracifish]

He went to hell on behalf of those who were there before His crucifixion and salvific sacrifice. He also went to hell to trample on death, using His death to do it.

I think it may have been something like that....as paradise (or "the bosom of Abraham) was someplace else, before Jesus rose then brought his old testament saints to heaven.

That has been one of my theories....for whatever that's worth. :)

[tracifish]

My next two questions for charismatics:

1. Do you have any pets?

2. Is there any kind of food you think sounds yummy?

I'm thinking we all need some time to bond. :hug:

p.s. Do you have a joke you'd like to tell me?

[Mikko]

My next two questions for charismatics:

1. Do you have any pets?

2. Is there any kind of food you think sounds yummy?

I'm thinking we all need some time to bond. :hug:

p.s. Do you have a joke you'd like to tell me?
These are known as "team-building" activities. :)

[Mikko]

I need to stop hitting my head. :wall: Ouch. That hurts. :wall: Ouch. That hurts. :wall: Ouch. That hurts! :wall::wall::wall:
:))

[An American Patriot]

Okay. Have you been to any revival meetings? What is the coolest thing you've witnessed?

I've been to many.

The best thing I have witnessed there is the salvation of sinners.

[Mikko]

Okay. Have you been to any revival meetings? What is the coolest thing you've witnessed?
As a youngster, I attende many. The coolest thing I ever witnessed was a Nazarene bluegrass gospel band. They were smokin'!:)

[tracifish]

I've been to many.

The best thing I have witnessed there is the salvation of sinners.

How does one know when that happens? What does it look like?

[tracifish]

Another Question:

M'r:2:22: And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

How old do you think is the bottle?

[tracifish]

These are known as "team-building" activities. :)

Maybe I ought to ask each person to create and post his or her own motivational poster. I will make one, also.

[hben]

....I don't know where to start...

When I was attending a 'New Life' church, we did something called I.H.O.P. I was so exited for it because I love to pray...and loved the idea of having prayer go on 24 hours a day. It fit me perfectly, because sometimes I used to break out singing in my prayers, whether it be praise or intercession...and I had never felt so close to God.

So my first question is: Have you ever heard of 'Harp and Bowl'?

David played the "harp", but there is no passage that describes him playing the "harp" while "bowling". Therefore, I would assume that "Harp and Bowl" is not anything that I've ever heard of. :think:

[hben]

....I don't know where to start...

When I was attending a 'New Life' church, we did something called I.H.O.P. I was so exited for it because I love to pray...and loved the idea of having prayer go on 24 hours a day. It fit me perfectly, because sometimes I used to break out singing in my prayers, whether it be praise or intercession...and I had never felt so close to God.

So my first question is: Have you ever heard of 'Harp and Bowl'?

Several years ago, I went through a "cruisimatic" stage cruising from church to church before the Spirit finally led me back to the Baptist Church where I've been at home ever since. :mrgreen:

[hben]

Okay.

Do you mind if I ask how you feel about Joyce Meyers? I used to watch her all the time...and I even know some Baptists that watch her and read her books.

Not this Baptist...lol. I upset some ladies and at least one man in our church a few years ago when I gave them my opinion about some of her teachings. If anyone in my church follows her teachings now, I am not aware of it. Of course, they may just keep it a secret, so I don't know about it. :doh:

[RayMan]

David played the "harp", but there is no passage that describes him playing the "harp" while "bowling". Therefore, I would assume that "Harp and Bowl" is not anything that I've ever heard of. :think:

gpd is a Pentecostal and a bowler. Maybe he can help out. Of course thirty seconds on google gives you the answer.

[hben]

But...how are we to get around the fact that she is a woman?

My wife is a woman, and I've never gotten around that fact. Of course, there are times when I would like to get around it, and then there are those other times when I have no desire to get around it. :mrgreen:

[tracifish]

Not this Baptist...lol. I upset some ladies and at least one man in our church a few years ago when I gave them my opinion about some of her teachings. If anyone in my church follows her teachings now, I am not aware of it. Of course, they may just keep it a secret, so I don't know about it. :doh:

If what you said upset these people, then I'm sad to say, but it's a safe bet that some are following her teachings. :(

Is your church a 501C3? Have you thought about coming out of it? My church is a 501C3, and the only reason I go, is that a friend promised to switch to the King James if I do.

[tracifish]

And the only non-501C3 Church I can find is waaaay out in Wisconsin somewhere. :(

[hben]

Not yet, but I'm working on it....after I refill my coffee.

Pour me another refill while you're at it, Traci...especially if this thread forces me to tell my wife that she will have to give up teaching her Adult Sunday School Class. :eh:

[tracifish]

My Photobucket is making me sick. I need to delete a whole bunch of stuff...but alot of it was for MySpace messages....so I have to try to remember which ones.

P.S. I knew there was something wrong with female angels. I deleted those.

[mgifford]

Traci, I find it very interesting that so few Christians are familier with Jesus being in hell for three days and preaching to the Saints. The believers from the OT were in "Hades" and had to have a Savior just as we did.

Of course there was a dividing of where the Saints and where those who didn't believe in God/Jesus were kept. In order for those of the OT to believe and repent, they had to look upon our dear, Savior and believe. That's just what Jesus did in those three days.

Actually, when any human stands before God and makes account for their life on earth, they must have had the privilege of looking on that "wonderful face" in order to be accountable. No person ever will be sent to hell without having seen Him.

[tracifish]

Traci, I find it very interesting that so few Christians are familier with Jesus being in hell for three days and preaching to the Saints. The believers from the OT were in "Hades" and had to have a Savior just as we did.

Of course there was a dividing of where the Saints and where those who didn't believe in God/Jesus were kept. In order for those of the OT to believe and repent, they had to look upon our dear, Savior and believe. That's just what Jesus did in those three days.

Actually, when any human stands before God and makes account for their life on earth, they must have had the privilege of looking on that "wonderful face" in order to be accountable. No person ever will be sent to hell without having seen Him.

No. I get that. It's just that some people are saying he suffered in hell to pay for our sins. The bible doesn't say that. It says that as he died on the cross, he said "it is finished".

[RayMan]

I want you all to know, this is not the Spanish Inquisition.



How can you just leave me standing? :((

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[mgifford]

No. I get that. It's just that some people are saying he suffered in hell to pay for our sins. The bible doesn't say that. It says that as he died on the cross, he said "it is finished".

Actually, from what I've studied, He said "it is finished" meaning the "Law" was finished. However, He still had to go to the place of torment to get the OT Saints. No, He didn't go to be tormented, He went as "The KIng" who took the "Keys" from Satan.

[tracifish]

Actually, from what I've studied, He said "it is finished" meaning the "Law" was finished. However, He still had to go to the place of torment to get the OT Saints. No, He didn't go to be tormented, He went as "The KIng" who took the "Keys" from Satan.

So then, why are you arguing with me? I have already said everything that you are saying.

[tracifish]

Only, the OT Saints weren't in the place of torment, but in a place called the bosom of Abraham....or like Hades, as you already explained.

[hben]

Only, the OT Saints weren't in the place of torment, but in a place called the bosom of Abraham.

Is it my deodorant or my mouthwash? I am used to my wife and daughter ignoring me, but even those who sleep through my sermons shake my hand and ackknowledge me on their way out the door. Hmmmmm...does this mean that I need to make more serious posts in order to get a response every now and then? :doh:

[tracifish]

Is it my deodorant or my mouthwash? I am used to my wife and daughter ignoring me, but even those who sleep through my sermons shake my hand and ackknowledge me on their way out the door. Hmmmmm...does this mean that I need to make more serious posts in order to get a response every now and then? :doh:

Sorry, but, yes. I need you to be more serious. My salvation is on the line.

[RayMan]

Is it my deodorant or my mouthwash? I am used to my wife and daughter ignoring me, but even those who sleep through my sermons shake my hand and ackknowledge me on their way out the door. Hmmmmm...does this mean that I need to make more serious posts in order to get a response every now and then? :doh:

It is a thought worth pondering.

[hben]

Sorry, but, yes. I need you to be more serious. My salvation is on the line.

Your salvation is on the line? :eek:

[hben]

[/b]

It is a thought worth pondering.

Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't I seen you post a less than serious post a time or two over the last few months, or do I have you mixed up with another Pentecostal Pope?

[tracifish]

2Tm:3:1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Tm:3:2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Tm:3:3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Tm:3:4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Tm:3:5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Tm:3:6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Tm:3:7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Tm:3:8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Tm:3:9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Tm:3:10: But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Tm:3:11: Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Tm:3:12: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Tm:3:13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Tm:3:14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Tm:3:15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tm:3:17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[tracifish]

Your salvation is on the line? :eek:

The other day I told you I'm not sure of my election.

[hben]

The other day I told you I'm not sure of my election.

I would prefer to discuss this by p.m., so check your box in a few minutes. Thanks.

[tracifish]

I would prefer to discuss this by p.m., so check your box in a few minutes. Thanks.

Thank you....but by keeping this out in the open, it might help others. The other night, something happened to me that doesn't happen to Christians. I was spiritually attacked.

[hben]

Thank you....but by keeping this out in the open, it might help others. The other night, something happened to me that doesn't happen to Christians. I was spiritually attacked.

In the open is fine if it is what you wish.

What do you mean you were spiritually attacked? I don't understand.

[tracifish]

In the open is fine if it is what you wish.

What do you mean you were spiritually attacked? I don't understand.

It was demonic and physical. All the same day, I was freezing and couldn't get warm.....but that was just the start of it.

[hben]

It was demonic and physical. All the same day, I was freezing and couldn't get warm.....but that was just the start of it.

Have you already shared your story on here? If so, I will read it, but if not, I am still a little confused as to what happened to you. If you would rather not go into any details, that is ok. I am just not sure why you are doubting your salvation with what little you've told me.

[tracifish]

Have you already shared your story on here? If so, I will read it, but if not, I am still a little confused as to what happened to you. If you would rather not go into any details, that is ok. I am just not sure why you are doubting your salvation with what little you've told me.

I have brought it up before. The freezing thing....and the pins and needles...my pastor had me repeat some bible verses out loud to him....and whatever it was left out of the back of my neck. That was a long time ago.

Last night, there was more to it.

[tracifish]

Jesus said something about "their latter end being worse than the first".

[tracifish]

If you would rather not go into any details, that is ok. I am just not sure why you are doubting your salvation with what little you've told me.

If I weren't, I wouldn't have said it.

[hben]

I have brought it up before. The freezing thing....and the pins and needles...my pastor had me repeat some bible verses out loud to him....and whatever it was left out of the back of my neck. That was a long time ago.

Last night, there was more to it.

But you have trusted Christ to save you, haven't you? I am not your judge, but when you told me that you needed to be more serious because you weren't sure of your election, it almost sounded as if you believe either in a works based salvation or you believe you could lose your salvation based on having stumbled or backslidden. I am getting warm, or am I way off base?

[tracifish]

But you have trusted Christ to save you, haven't you? I am not your judge, but when you told me that you needed to be more serious because you weren't sure of your election, it almost sounded as if you believe either in a works based salvation or you believe you could lose your salvation based having stumbled and fallen. I am getting warm, or am I way off base?

I believe in grace by faith. No works...and I believe in OSAS.

[hben]

If I weren't, I wouldn't have said it.

What do you believe saves you, if I may be so bold to ask?

[tracifish]

Though there are a couple verses that make me question OSAS.

[hben]

I believe in grace by faith. No works...and I believe in OSAS.

I really don't even like the term "once saved, always saved". I prefer the theological term known as "the eternal security of the believer". If you believe salvation comes by grace through faith, then are you saying that you haven't placed your faith in Christ for your salvation?

[hben]

I believe in grace by faith. No works...and I believe in OSAS.

Have you had a heart to heart talk with your pastor about this?

[tracifish]

What do you believe saves you, if I may be so bold to ask?

The atonenment of Christ by his shed blood and taking God's wrath upon himself while he was on the cross. He being sinless, fully God and fully man was able to satisfy God's justice, that we may have his perfect righteousness imputed on us.

[hben]

The atonenment of Christ by his shed blood and taking God's wrath upon himself while he was on the cross. He being sinless, fully God and fully man was able to satisfy God's justice, that we may have his perfect righteousness imputed on us.

And have you placed your trust in Christ and Him only for your salvation at some point in your life?

[tracifish]

Have you had a heart to heart talk with your pastor about this?

No. My pastor is gone. They asked him to resign. I do not have a pastor anymore.

[tracifish]

And have you placed your trust in Christ and Him only for your salvation at some point in your life?

I think so....but maybe not.

[hben]

No. My pastor is gone. They asked him to resign. I do not have a pastor anymore.

Does his resignation have anything to do with your doubts now?

[tracifish]

Does his resignation have anything to do with your doubts now?

No. But I have to go to bed now. Thank you for talking to me. Goodnight for now.

[hben]

I think so....but maybe not.

Well, no one really knows that but you and the Lord. I can't say whether you've truly trusted in the Savior, but if you have, then it is Satan who is causing you to doubt whether you are good enough to be saved...not the Holy Spirit.

[hben]

No. But I have to go to bed now. Thank you for talking to me. Goodnight for now.

You are welcome. I can't replace your pastor, but if I can help, drop me a line. In the meantime, I will keep you in my prayers, and remember Satan is a liar and a thief. Jesus brings peace whenever you have invited His Spirit into your heart.

Goodnight, and may God bless you.

[mgifford]

So then, why are you arguing with me? I have already said everything that you are saying.

My apologies, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing. I was making a point to anyone who is interested in the thread. Again, sorry.

[Warrior4God]

To get at the truth behind this mystery we will need to delve somewhat into the Greek text of 1 Tim 2 and also compare the actions of Paul with the interpretations some people put on his writings in 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14. If he really meant to say that he did not believe there was any place for women to preach, pray, and prophesy in the church then he had major schizophrenic problems because throughout his ministry he allowed them to do all three and commended several of them for it in his writings.

The biggest stumbling block to understanding Paul’s teaching on women in ministry is the failure of many people to rightly divide the Greek texts of 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14. Paul was not talking about men and women in general in these two passages of scripture, he was speaking to married couples and the need for the wife to be in proper relationship to her husband, not usurping his authority. There is only one word for wife and women in the New Testament Greek text: Gune – where we get gyne as in gynecologist. Likewise, there is only one Greek word used for man or husband: Aner. You have to discern from the text whether Paul is talking about men and women in the generic or husband and wife in the specific. The context of 1 Tim 2 makes it blatantly clear that he is speaking to man and wife.

1 Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1 Tim 2:11 (Williams) I do not permit a married woman to practice teaching or domineering over a husband."

Vs 11 Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, The Hebrew - Greek Key Study Bible: (After showing from the Greek that this passage is speaking strictly to the Husband - Wife relationship) "It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church. 1 Tim. 2:11 should be translated "Let the wife learn (the direct imperative of the present tense which means continuously to learn at any time and at all times) in tranquility in her positioning under.

The word translated "in silence" is the noun HESUCHIA. In the N.T. it occurs in Acts 22:2; 2 Thess. 3:12 and 1 Tim. 2:11,12. It is unfortunate that it is translated as silence indicating muteness, the absence of talking. The adjective of the same word is HESUCHIOS, and it is used in 1 Tim. 2:2 and is translated with the word "peaceable," and in 1 Pet. 3:4, it is translated with the word "quiet." In both instances it means "tranquil, not disturbed." In Acts 21:14 it is translated as "ceased." In 1 Thess. 4:11, it is translated as "to be quiet."


He Concludes: "The correct meaning, therefore, of the word HESUCHIA in this text is not silence, but it is tranquility, not in a disturbing way." And: "What did Paul want to teach in I Tim. 2:11? It was that a wife should display a tranquil spirit in her attempt to learn."



Vs 12 Dr. Zodhiates H.G.K.S.B.: "Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be "But I suffer not a woman to teach" but "I suffer not a wife..." As Paul continues the discussion, the word GUNE is here used to contrast to ANER, "husband," and not "man" as the A.V. has it. GUNE in this verse must also be translated as "a wife" as in v. 11 Paul says, "I do not permit a wife to teach." The word for "teach" in Greek is the infinitive DIDASKEIN in the present tense which means to teach CONTINUOUSLY. The situation presented is that of the common presence of a wife and husband in the home or the assembly or anywhere else.

Paul says, "I do not want a wife to constantly teach." If she did, she would undermine her husband's position, giving the impression that she is the head of her husband, which is contrary to God's ordained order between husband and wife. A wife should place limitations on her own liberty in Christ in both her dress, her adornment and her speech. Paul does not want women to be drab or mute, but to be careful lest they go beyond the bonds of accepted propriety ..."

He Continues: "The word translated "to usurp authority" is the Greek word AUTHENTEIN or AUTHENTEO, and this is the only place in the N.T. that it occurs. Interestingly enough, in Classical Greek an AUTHENTES was an autocrat, a person who ruled even to the point of committing murder. In one instance, it referred to a murder of one of the same family. The noun AUTHENTIA means absolute sway or authority. In other words, a wife in her private or public life should not do anything to kill the position that her husband has been given by God. A wife should never be a usurper of the role of a husband or a father."



Quietness has to do with a quiet spirit, as opposed to a pushy, overbearing one. Paul was not closing the door for vocal ministry to all Christian woman, he was making it clear that he would not give up the floor to a P.M.C.W. with a hen-pecked mate. (P.M.C.W. - Power Mad Crazy Woman - a delightfully appropriate acronym my wife thought up!)

Gal 3:26-29 states emphatically that IN CHRIST there is neither Jew nor Greek (No racial distinction), neither slave nor free (No financial or social distinction), neither male nor female (No gender distinction), for we are all ONE in Christ Jesus.



WOMEN KEEP SILENCE IN THE CHURCHES?

1 Cor 12: 34 ¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Again we can see that Paul is addressing the husband wife specific scenario rather than the man women generic one. Notice he doesn’t say anything about it being a shame for women to preach, pray or prophesy in the church, he says it is a shame for them to interrupt church services with questions about what is going and being said. His discourse is centered around the need for order in church services regardless of who might be making a disturbance.

It would be good to keep in mind that in a first century church filled with people from the lower economic strata the wives in question would probably not have had the benefits of any education or life-experiences beyond that of keeping house and bearing and raising children. Another item of interest is that the early churches generally borrowed the Jewish synagogue custom of having the women seated on one side of the room and the men on the other. It is not much of a disrturbance for a women sitting next to her husband to lean against him and whisper a question in his ear. It is a radically different matter for me to yell across the room: "Hey, what did the preacher mean when he said that just now?"




Dr. Zodhiates G.H.K.S.B.: "The verb LALEIN, the infinitive of LALEO, has been used exclusively in this whole discussion in speaking both in foreign languages and also particularly in the speaking of the unknown tongue of Corinth. The reason he used LALEO and not LEGO is because LALEO refers to the mere utterance of sounds without the speaker necessarily knowing what he is saying or others understanding. LEGO on the other hand is saying something which is the product of one’s thought.

Naturally no thinking person will speak without others understanding him. Therefore, Paul uses LALEO because among the Corinthians stress was placed upon the languages themselves and not necessarily the content of the speech involved. Since Paul in I Cor 11:5 assumes that a women prays or prophesies, and this cannot refer to only a restricted group, then the word LALEO in 1 Cor 14:34-35, if taken to be speaking generally, would contradict I Cor 11:5.

Dr..Zohdiates continues: "One cannot take Paul's indirect imperative in 1 Cor 14:34, "Let your women keep silence in the churches," as absolute. It must be taken in conjunction with what follows: "for it is not permitted unto them to speak." The word "speak" as we explained is LALEIN which should be taken to mean "uttering sounds that are incoherent and which are not understood by others." Paul says that instead of having anything like that, it is better to have silence.

Paul uses the same word for "keeping silence" in v. 28 when a man speaks in an unknown tongue without an interpreter. Also the same imperative SIGATO, "let him keep silent," is used in v. 30, "if anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace." Actually that phrase, "let him hold his peace," is the same word meaning, "let him keep silent." That is a man, not a woman. What Paul is saying is that only one man must speak at a time. If two speak at once, there will be confusion."



Dr. Zohdiates concludes: "Every time one of these three actions appear on the scene during a worship service, the person should hush, be it a man or a woman. In the first two instances it concerns men and in the last women. (1) if a man speaks in an unknown language without anyone interpreting into a language that others can understand; (2) if a man speaks and somebody else gets up to speak, and (3) if a woman begins to act like the Delphic priestesses speaking in an unknown tongue.

Under no circumstances does the injuction of Paul in 1 Cor 14:34 indicate that women should not utter a word at anytime during the church service. It is not men versus women or women versus men, but it is confusion versus order. It makes no difference who causes the confusion. It is as bad if produced by men as it is when produced by women."

That is a great post Ray.

I had been studying this because the women being silent bothered me very much and found some of what you posted but there is a great deal more there for me to study.

I am one of those that believe you should study it to see if it is so.

Thanks.

[Koushi Shinigami]

.

[RayMan]

That is a great post Ray.

I had been studying this because the women being silent bothered me very much and found some of what you posted but there is a great deal more there for me to study.

I am one of those that believe you should study it to see if it is so.

Thanks.


Glad you found it helpful, Warrior.