A question to military personnel.

[Mohawk5]

I was thinking about Afghanistan today. And the fact that the taliban has been able to take back large areas of land. Now that the US is sending in an additional 17,000 troops to assist with this problem. Would it be prudent to stack them on the Pakistan border and cover every possible escape route then go on a huge offensive across the nation. We know where they are going to head once they start getting their collective ass's kicked by our troops. Push them to the Pakistan border of which we will already have sealed off and crush the crap out of them. Put up in the air enough drones and C130 Gunships and let them have a field day!

Is this scenario possible?

[FreedomWorks]

Sounds easy but it is far more complicated than that. Afghanistan is a difficult region to control because of the natural terrain and regional warlordism. Again the "Taliban" can blend in with the native population, and you can not just cut off the travel routes because that would interupt trade, and other legal activities from occurring as normal.

The Taliban was the only faction to ever successfully control the country with a central power because of their cruel Islamic Fundamentalist practices... The only way to control a decentralized populace is to make them fear you.

Just ask Barack Obama, he is using similar tactics, just as the Soviets and all other "Communist" regimes have been doing for 100 years.

Notice "Communist" is in quote because none of the so called countries resemble true communism, which is a society with no government at all. They are all quite the opposite.

[markdido]

I was thinking about Afghanistan today. And the fact that the taliban has been able to take back large areas of land. Now that the US is sending in an additional 17,000 troops to assist with this problem. Would it be prudent to stack them on the Pakistan border and cover every possible escape route then go on a huge offensive across the nation. We know where they are going to head once they start getting their collective ass's kicked by our troops. Push them to the Pakistan border of which we will already have sealed off and crush the crap out of them. Put up in the air enough drones and C130 Gunships and let them have a field day!

Is this scenario possible?

Sounds viable. Let's beta test it on the Mexican border first.....

[Mohawk5]

All things are possible if prepared for correctly. Of course I don't think we can shut down the whole border. Enough to make it a turkey shoot on occasion I would say yea.

We have to be able to do something.

[Mohawk5]

Sounds viable. Let's beta test it on the Mexican border first.....

Good point.

[coyote1880]

"cover every possible escape route"

The problem with this idea.

This is just not possible.

If it was, I would say go for it.

But you can not contain that border.

[Mohawk5]

"cover every possible escape route"

The problem with this idea.

This is just not possible.

If it was, I would say go for it.

But you can not contain that border.


With our military technology and boots on the ground I find it hard to believe. I do not think anyone has actually tried.

My ex-marine coworker who trained in mountain fighting says we can do it. He admits it won't be easy but we can do it.

[coyote1880]

The Apalachians?

Sure we could do it there.

But not the Hindu Kush.

Go there sometime.

You will see why not.

Not without the kind of firepower we will not be willing to use.

And frankly, with what we would need to use, you would not want boots on the ground anywhere near there.

And I am not talking A-bombs.

GBU-s followed by a massive incediary flash.

Metric tonnes of Napalm in areosol.

This Pakistan would hold still for that?

The rest of the world?

What we would need to do is just not going to happen.

[rhet 2]

The Apalachians?

Sure we could do it there.

But not the Hindu Kush.

Go there sometime.

You will see why not.

Not without the kind of firepower we will not be willing to use.

And frankly, with what we would need to use, you would not want boots on the ground anywhere near there.

And I am not talking A-bombs.

GBU-s followed by a massive incediary flash.

Metric tonnes of Napalm in areosol.

This Pakistan would hold still for that?

The rest of the world?

What we would need to do is just not going to happen.

you, sir, always make good sense

All out war IS possible, however.

Just not conventional war -- propaganda war

Persuade the villagers that loyalty to islamic fascisti like AQ and the Taliban is deadly, whereas turning on the fascisti gets them good things beyond their wildest daydreams.

Then fascisti either starve to death or are forced to get very very busy growing their own damned food -- which is going to be hard to do, if every adult and child around them is looking to turn them over to the US.

But, to do that, you'd have to send in men able and willing to use the koran and the example of Mohammed to preach anti-fascisti dogmas -- and keep your own preachers alive long enough to convert enough villagers to a different type of islamic faith and obedience to Allah -- a totally different lifestyle and belief system than what they're taught from birth.

Waziristan is just not the type of terrain in which conventional military ALONE can succeed. Gotta have the propaganda war to go with the physical force.

Which IS where Bush blew it, big time: he failed to address the fascist dogmas out of fear of treading on a "religion" that is more politics than it ever was religion.

[Antrel]

Coyote is spot on, and it's why the 17,000 additional troops will provide little advantage for us or Afghanistan. I've said so before in other threads, but the only way you're possibly going to "stop the Taliban" is pushing them east all the way to China. How many soldiers we willing to risk, and how many enemies are we willing to enable to fulfill the objectives of a major ground operation that should have never existed? Let SOF do their jobs against al-Queda, and let Afghanistan worry about the Taliban.

[coyote1880]

The problem is that you are dealing with a very poor tribal people.

You dealing with survivors.

When you come in happiness they will welcome you, hand out to recieve whatever largess you will give them.

They will nod their heads and agree with everthing you tell them.

But will they help you in any significant way?

No.

They will not trust that you will always be there to protect them.

On the other hand you can go in with force.

They will bow and scrape.

They will treat you with respect as due a conquerer.

All the while plotting to over though you.

No matter how you approach these people, you will never get back anything that they do not feel is in the best interest of the tribe.

They are survivors.

It is what they do.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

With our military technology and boots on the ground I find it hard to believe. I do not think anyone has actually tried.

My ex-marine coworker who trained in mountain fighting says we can do it. He admits it won't be easy but we can do it.

"Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" :))

[Antrel]

"Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" :))Psh, there's nothing a team of SOF guys can do that a brigade of legs can't.

[coyote1880]

"Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" :))

Now now Sneaky.

There is much that "boots" can do.

Well maybe not Boots, but experienced soldiers.

But that pesky ROE keeps getting in the way.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

Now now Sneaky.

There is much that "boots" can do.

Well maybe not Boots, but experienced soldiers.

But that pesky ROE keeps getting in the way.

I just love the catch phrase - it sings! "Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!" "Boots on the ground!"

[Mohawk5]

I think there seems to be some confusion with my question. I am not looking to go into Pakistan to deal with their taliban issues. I am merely speaking of the taliban that we know are currently in Afghanistan. Stack the west push them that way, if they don't surrender kill them.

That is all I am saying.

[USAF Medic]

Secretary Gates has said, and I agree, that the war in Afghanistan needs to be an Afghan war, NOT and Amercian war.
We will lose popular support, that is already already waning (I just came from there 6 weeks ago), with the Afghan people if we turn it into an all out American offensive.

[Mohawk5]

Secretary Gates has said, and I agree, that the war in Afghanistan needs to be an Afghan war, NOT and Amercian war.
We will lose popular support, that is already already waning (I just came from there 6 weeks ago), with the Afghan people if we turn it into an all out American offensive.


Thanks for your first hand knowledge of what's happening on the ground.

Thanks for your service!

[rhet 2]

Secretary Gates has said, and I agree, that the war in Afghanistan needs to be an Afghan war, NOT and Amercian war.
We will lose popular support, that is already already waning (I just came from there 6 weeks ago), with the Afghan people if we turn it into an all out American offensive.

I fully agree with Gates, too.

We've got nothing but our own version of the Soviet screwup building, big time.

Because we're focusing on side issues, not focusing on the true causes and effects, so we're using bad tactics guaranteed to make the situation worse -- fighting the wrong war and ignoring the real one.

[Crossriflesonblue]

They will probabably establish Fire Bases and FOB's in strategic areas....conduct operations to set the Taliban in place and destroy their operations units, conduct stikes on their command structure, patrol for intelligence and launch special operations against high level targets.....we have done this before it isn't anything new....question isn't what are we going to do militarily that's a done deal I guess..... the question is what are we and the Afghan government going to do to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans.

[mark23]

you, sir, always make good sense

All out war IS possible, however.

Just not conventional war -- propaganda war

Persuade the villagers that loyalty to islamic fascisti like AQ and the Taliban is deadly, whereas turning on the fascisti gets them good things beyond their wildest daydreams.

Then fascisti either starve to death or are forced to get very very busy growing their own damned food -- which is going to be hard to do, if every adult and child around them is looking to turn them over to the US.

But, to do that, you'd have to send in men able and willing to use the koran and the example of Mohammed to preach anti-fascisti dogmas -- and keep your own preachers alive long enough to convert enough villagers to a different type of islamic faith and obedience to Allah -- a totally different lifestyle and belief system than what they're taught from birth.

Waziristan is just not the type of terrain in which conventional military ALONE can succeed. Gotta have the propaganda war to go with the physical force.

Which IS where Bush blew it, big time: he failed to address the fascist dogmas out of fear of treading on a "religion" that is more politics than it ever was religion.

Great point about Bush blowing it on the propoganda war. However your idea would never work. All muslims consider the Koran the final word of god and it cannot be changed. Its perfect.
After the first offensive in Afganistan we should have got out. You are never going to build a democracy. Remember Afganistans constitution has Sharia law in it. So does Iraqs. I wouldn't have even gone into iraq. We would have been much better off ending muslim immigration and kicking the muslims we have out. With the money saved from the Iraq war we should have given it to the Europeans as "prize" money for having kids so they raise the horrible birth rate so Sharia doesn't take over Europe.

[Mohawk5]

Mohawk5, I respect your "lets get' em" attitude. But one has to realize the mamoth and i mean GIGANTIC size of this terrain! To cover this region in square miles sort of speak is lke searching a mountainous length between New York and Denver. We cant just land anywhere we want its to jagged. These mountains are like spikes sticking out of the earth. Our weapons technology is superior....but unfortunately not against mother nature. If you took grains of pepper and hid em in your house do you think someone could find them? Remember Eric Rudolph, the clinic bomber? He hid and, they scoured his Blue ridge mountain hiding place! FBI and ATF never found him....Until years later when a patrol cop saw a man fitting his description digging through a home depot garbage can.


Good points.

[rhet 2]

Great point about Bush blowing it on the propoganda war. However your idea would never work. All muslims consider the Koran the final word of god and it cannot be changed. Its perfect.
After the first offensive in Afganistan we should have got out. You are never going to build a democracy. Remember Afganistans constitution has Sharia law in it. So does Iraqs. I wouldn't have even gone into iraq. We would have been much better off ending muslim immigration and kicking the muslims we have out. With the money saved from the Iraq war we should have given it to the Europeans as "prize" money for having kids so they raise the horrible birth rate so Sharia doesn't take over Europe.

Not what I meant.

You USE THE KORAN ITSELF to prove that the jihadi imperialists are WAY OUT OF TOUCH with the "true spirit of islam."

That book is full of passages that should and could be used to counter the racist and misogynistic crap of the CULT PERVERSIONS.

Sell a NEW brand of islam itself -- a HUMANIST islam based on the koran that persuades Muslims that cultural imperialism is an evil cult perversion of the TRUE teachings of Mohammed.