The 144,000 (Where's the Tribe of Dan?)

[tracifish]

It looks as though I'm going to have to go back to Genesis to figure out which of Jacob's children were Leah's and which were Rachel's and what they said after they had named each one.

I'm trying to figure out what the tribe of Dan did that was so wrong.

Revelation:7:4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Re:7:5: Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Re:7:6: Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Re:7:7: Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Re:7:8: Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

[Meriweather]

Dan was the fifth son of Jacob, and the first by Bihan, maidservant of Rachel.
Genesis 30:6; 35:25; 46:23; 49:16-17

[tracifish]

Dan was the fifth son of Jacob, and the first by Bihan, maidservant of Rachel.
Genesis 30:6; 35:25; 46:23; 49:16-17

Cool! I'm going to look up the verses.

....though now, I think it was something Jacob said to Dan that I never understood.

[tracifish]

Dan was the fifth son of Jacob, and the first by Bihan, maidservant of Rachel.
Genesis 30:6; 35:25; 46:23; 49:16-17

Ge:30:6: And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.

Ge:35:25: And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali:

Ge:46:23: And the sons of Dan; Hushim.

Ge:49:16: Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

Ge:49:17: Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. (what does that mean?)

[Meriweather]

Ge:30:6: And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.

Ge:35:25: And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali:

Ge:46:23: And the sons of Dan; Hushim.

Ge:49:16: Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

Ge:49:17: Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. (what does that mean?)

The only mention I can find is the possibility that Dan was one of the weaker tribes--and used its strength slyly and as effectively as a snake against a horse and rider.

[tracifish]

The only mention I can find is the possibility that Dan was one of the weaker tribes--and used its strength slyly and as effectively as a snake against a horse and rider.

That's possible. Maybe no Dannites exist today to be part of the 144,000.

[lwdc]

It's also interesting that the Revelator mentions Joseph as a tribe, along with Joseph's son Manasseh.

[tracifish]

It's also interesting that the Revelator mentions Joseph as a tribe, along with Joseph's son Manasseh.

Well, Joseph was Jacob's favorite son....but it appears that Joseph's son, Manasseh has replaced Dan.

[lwdc]

Well, Joseph was Jacob's favorite son....but it appears that Joseph's son, Manasseh has replaced Dan.The other tribes listed are sons of Jacob. Manasseh is the only person who is not an immediate son of Jacob, because he is the son of Joseph. But Joseph is already listed.

Furthermore, Ephraim was Jacob's favorite grandson, not Manasseh. If Jacob's favorites are given some sort of preference in this list of twelve, then why is Manasseh included but not Ephraim? Why is Reuben included when he lost his birthright as Esau had done before?

And, back to you original question, why is Dan, the son of Jacob, not among the twelve?

[tracifish]

The other tribes listed are sons of Jacob. Manasseh is the only person who is not an immediate son of Jacob, because he is the son of Joseph. But Joseph is already listed.

Furthermore, Ephraim was Jacob's favorite grandson, not Manasseh. If Jacob's favorites are given some sort of preference in this list of twelve, then why is Manasseh included but not Ephraim? Why is Reuben included when he lost his birthright as Esau had done before?

And, back to you original question, why is Dan, the son of Jacob, not among the twelve?

I don't know. Joseph liked Ephraim better, but Manasseh was still Joseph's firstborn. Did Reuben also lose his birth as Esau did? Joseph would also be listed, as he was a son of Jacob.

This is confusing me.

[lwdc]

I don't know. Joseph liked Ephraim better, but Manasseh was still Joseph's firstborn. Did Reuben also lose his birth as Esau did? Joseph would also be listed, as he was a son of Jacob.

This is confusing me.Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, albeit by the maidservant, but the blessing went to Isaac.

Esau was the firstborn of Isaac, albeit he was one of twins, but the blessing went to Jacob because Esau despised his birthright.

Reuben was the firstborn of Jacob, but the blessing went to Joseph because Reuben defiled his father's bed.

Manasseh was the firstborn of Joseph, but the blessing went to Ephraim because Jacob believed Ephraim would be greater.



Do you see a pattern?

Christian typologists, get to work.

[Meriweather]

I don't know. Joseph liked Ephraim better, but Manasseh was still Joseph's firstborn. Did Reuben also lose his birth as Esau did? Joseph would also be listed, as he was a son of Jacob.

This is confusing me.

You might find the chart by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D. interesting. He has listed Biblical scriptures where the twelve tribes of Israel are named. You will notice that sometimes not all twelve are named; the order often differs; sometimes more than twelve tribes are listed.

<Twelve Tribes of Israel> (http://www.catholic-resources.org/Bible/History-12Tribes.htm)<--click

Perhaps Revelation has a reason for using the list it does. Perhaps you can check its names and order against one of these lists to see if that particular scripture can add additional meaning or scope to what is being said in Revelation.

[tracifish]

You might find the chart by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D. interesting. He has listed Biblical scriptures where the twelve tribes of Israel are named. You will notice that sometimes not all twelve are named; the order often differs; sometimes more than twelve tribes are listed.

<Twelve Tribes of Israel> (http://www.catholic-resources.org/Bible/History-12Tribes.htm)<--click

Perhaps Revelation has a reason for using the list it does. Perhaps you can check its names and order against one of these lists to see if that particular scripture can add additional meaning or scope to what is being said in Revelation.

Thank you. I'm also wondering what Poisonshady or Harmonious have to say about the tribe of Dan. I have heard that Samson was a Dannite, and "Dan" can also mean "judge".

Extra-biblically, I have heard it may have been Dannites that moved to Greece and started the Spartans with some of the Greeks.

[Jacob_Rising]

Ge:49:17: Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. (what does that mean?)
Dan is not there because of your verse here from Genisis , There will be no more punishment phases for the pure virgins considered Israel at that time, and there is no Ephraim mentioned because there is no person within Israel considered to be gentiles at that time.

Genisis 49 shows a walk with God showing what level you are currently in with your walk with God and it's very easy to see.

The walk starts out slow and bad with Reuben, Simeon and Levi, Judah is where you start sacrificing yourself, and Zebulun is where the truth goes out to the world{a haven for ships} .

Issachar is strong but not committed{lying down between two burdens}.

So then Dan comes and punishes you and you bend your knee and Say,'' I have waited for your salvation, O Lord!

And then you conquer as Gad, A troup shall tramp on him, but he shall triumph.

This is conquering your own flesh and desires, and after you achieve that, the rest of the tribes are blessings until you come to Benjamin.

Benjamin is the beloved of the Lord and the highest level and in the end , He fights for God and destroys the wicked.

A ravenous wolf, In the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

Jerusalem is in Benjamin., True Jerusalem is Benjamin.

[tracifish]

Dan is not there because of your verse here from Genisis , There will be no more punishment phases for the pure virgins considered Israel at that time, and there is no Ephraim mentioned because there is no person within Israel considered to be gentiles at that time.

Genisis 49 shows a walk with God showing what level you are currently in with your walk with God and it's very easy to see.

The walk starts out slow and bad with Reuben, Simeon and Levi, Judah is where you start sacrificing yourself, and Zebulun is where the truth goes out to the world{a haven for ships} .

Issachar is strong but not committed{lying down between two burdens}.

So then Dan comes and punishes you and you bend your knee and Say,'' I have waited for your salvation, O Lord!

And then you conquer as Gad, A troup shall tramp on him, but he shall triumph.

This is conquering your own flesh and desires, and after you achieve that, the rest of the tribes are blessings until you come to Benjamin.

Benjamin is the beloved of the Lord and the highest level and in the end , He fights for God and destroys the wicked.

A ravenous wolf, In the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

Jerusalem is in Benjamin., True Jerusalem is Benjamin.

I'd have to say that the 144,000 are Jewish male Christians.

[mgifford]

Ge:30:6: And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.

Ge:35:25: And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali:

Ge:46:23: And the sons of Dan; Hushim.

Ge:49:16: Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

Ge:49:17: Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. (what does that mean?)

The names of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned here, Levi and Joseph take their places. To explain the omission of Dan, many use Deut. 29:18-21, but which one of the tribes did not go into idolatry? The real reason for none of Dan being sealed here is that none are servants of God at that time, cp. Rev. 7:3. Dan will be restored with the other tribes in the Millennium, so the idolatry of Dan is no reason for the tribe being left out here, Ezekiel 48:30-35; Rev. 21:12.

[kairos]

Excerpt of interest pertaining to the Tribe of Dan:

An analysis of the genealogies in the Bible is very illuminating. According to the book of Chronicles there is no genealogy for the tribe of Dan. It has been observed by numerous scholars that many of the names occurring in the genealogies themselves are either blatantly geographical or connected with place-names; while others are definitely personal names.[1] (http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho4.htm#_ftn1) But the case of the Tribe of Dan is special, and holds a clue for us in this matter of the Temple and the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant. In II Chronicles 2:11-14 the D historian writes: Then Hiram the king of Tyre answered in writing, which he sent to Solomon, Because the Lord hath loved his people, he has made you king over them. Hiram said moreover, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who has given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, who should build a house for the Lord, and a palace for his kingdom. And now I have sent a skilled man, endued with understanding, even Huram-abi, my trusted counselor, the son of a woman of the daughters of DAN; his father was a man of Tyre. He is a trained worker in gold, silver, brass, iron, stone, and wood, in purple, blue, and crimson colors, and in fine linen; also to engrave any manner of engraving, and to carry out any design which shall be given to him, with your skilled men, and with the skilled men of my lord David your father.
The above is supposed to be a letter from Hiram of Tyre to Solomon, discussing the attributes of a particular man, the trusted counselor of the great Hiram, who is being sent to help the son of David as a great favor. This man is presented as a great designer and architect. He is named, and his mother is designated as being of the tribe of Dan. He is going to be the architect of the Temple of Solomon. In other words, he is the model for the archetypal “great architect” Hiram Abiff of Masonic lore.
So, what is the problem?
Look at this next excerpt from Exodus 31:1-7: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, To devise skilful works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in bronze, and in cutting of stones for setting, and in carving of wood, to work in all manner of craftsmanship. And behold, I have appointed with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of DAN; and to all who are wise hearted I have given wisdom and ability to make all that I have commanded you: The tent of meeting, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is on it, and all the furniture of the tent…
The above description of the command to build the Tent of Meeting and the Ark sounds almost identical to the purported letter from Hiram to Solomon, even including strong similarities in the names of the principal worker: Huram-abi of the tribe of Dan has become Hur of the tribe of Judah: And Bezalel the son Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, made all that the LORD commanded Moses. And with him was Aholiab, son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan an engraver, and a skillful craftsman, and an embroiderer in blue, and in purple, and in scarlet, and fine linen.
The next problem arises when we find in I Kings, chapter 7:13-21, the following most confusing information about Hiram: And King Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. He was a widow’s son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and skill to work all works in brass.
And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work. For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece: and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about. And he made two chapiters of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits: And nets of checker work, and wreaths of chain work, for the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars; seven for the one chapiter, and seven for the other chapiter. And he made the pillars, and two rows round about upon the one network, to cover the chapiters that were upon the top, with pomegranates: and so did he for the other chapiter. And the chapiters that were upon the top of the pillars were of lily work in the porch, four cubits. And the chapiters upon the two pillars had pomegranates also above, over against the belly which was by the network: and the pomegranates were two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter. And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.
We see without too much difficulty that these passages are taken from the same source, though one refers to the building of a Temple and the other refers to the construction of a tent and an ark. One of the problems is, of course, that according to the Bible, the two events are separated by a very long period of time. We also note the curious name similarities between Huram-abi of the passage in II Chronicles, and Hur, the father of Bezalel, connected to Aholiab of the tribe of Dan. Also curious is the name of Bezalel, which is so similar to Jezebel, who we have tentatively identified as the Phoenician princess, daughter of Ethbaal, king of Tyre. More curious still is the claim of the Dan inscription that, in the destruction of the City of Dan, the House of David was destroyed. What was the connection of the Tribe of Dan to the House of the Beloved? Were they, as it seems from these clues, one and the same?
In the Exodus passage, we find an interesting substitution taking place: the tribe of Judah has been connected with the tribe of Dan, even taking precedence. The architect sent by Hiram whose mother was of the tribe of Dan, and whose father was a man of Tyre, is now relegated to a subservient position to Bezalel, of the tribe of Judah, who is now the “son of Hur.” Importantly, we see that a member of the tribe of Dan was the builder of the Ark! We are entitled to ask: is the tribe of Dan the true “house of the beloved” or Davidic line? And if so, who are they?
When we search for the source of this tribe, we find many interesting things as well as things that are conspicuous by their absence. In Genesis 30:1-6, we discover that Dan was the child of Rachel’s maid, Bilhah: And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die. And Jacob’s anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God’s stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb? And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her. And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son. And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan.[source: The Secret History of the World and How to Get Out Alive by Laura Knight-Jadczyk]

[kairos]

continued....
This story is remarkably similar to the story of Sarai and Hagar in Genesis 16:1-5 Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had a handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord has restrained me from bearing: I ask you, have intercourse with my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram listened to Sarai. And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he had intercourse with Hagar and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee.
The last lines of both passages, dealing with “judgment,” indicate that they are, in fact, the same story.
Another interesting connection pops up when we consider the identification of Hiram as a member of the tribe of Naphtali in the passage describing the creation of the pillars Jachin and Boaz. From I Chronicles, chapter 7:13: The sons of Naphtali; Jahziel, and Guni, and Jezer, and Shallum, the sons of Bilhah.
Keep the name “Shallum” in mind because we will encounter it again later in the chapter.
We next come to another clue. In Genesis 49, the patriarch Jacob has called all his children to gather around his deathbed so that he can pronounce their destiny upon them. When he gets to Dan, in verses16 -18, he says: Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, a horned snake in the path, that bites at the horse’s heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. I wait for thy salvation, O Lord.”
This is said almost as though the activity of Dan that is negative toward Israel, is the salvation. In Deuteronomy 33:22, Moses blesses the tribe of Dan by saying, “And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion’s whelp: he shall leap from Bashan.” But in the blessing of Jacob, in Genesis 49:8-9 the attribute of the Lion is given to Judah: Judah, you are the one whom your brothers shall praise. Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall bow down to you. Judah, a lion’s cub! With the prey, my son, you have gone high up the mountain; he stooped down, he crouched as a lion, and as a lioness; who dares provoke and rouse him?
Let’s compare that to two additional items: the destiny prescribed by God when he appears to Hagar at the well when she ran away after Sarai was cruel to her during her pregnancy, and the blessing given by Isaac to his beloved son Esau after Jacob had defrauded his father with the help of his mother, Rebekah. There are interesting resonances to the remarks made about Judah. The first event is recounted in Genesis 16:11-12, and the second in Genesis 27:39-40: 1) And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, or God hears, because the Lord has heard and paid attention to your affliction. And [Ishmael] will be as a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall live to the east and on the borders of all his kinsmen.
2) And Isaac his father answered and said unto [Esau], Behold, Your dwelling shall all come from the fruitfulness of the earth, and from the dew of heaven from above; And by your sword shalt you live, and serve your brother. But the time will come when you will have the dominion, and you will break his yoke from off your neck.

[kairos]

continued....

One of the more interesting things we discover when we dig into this subject is that Samson was of the tribe of Dan. Robert Graves remarks: Hercules first appears in legend as a pastoral sacred king and, perhaps because shepherds welcome the birth of twin lambs, is a twin himself. His characteristics and history can be deduced from a mass of legends, folk-customs and megalithic monuments. He is the rainmaker of his tribe and a sort of human thunderstorm. Legends connect him with Libya and the Atlas Mountains; he may well have originated thereabouts in Paleolithic times. The priests of Egyptian Thebes, who called him “Shu,” dated his origin as “17,000 years before the reign of King Amasis.” His symbols are the acorn; the rock dove, which nests in oaks as well as in clefts of rock; the mistletoe, and the serpent. All of these are sexual emblems. The dove was sacred to the Love-goddess of Greece and Syria the serpent was the most ancient of phallic totem-beasts; the cupped acorn stood for the glans penis in both Greek and Latin; the mistletoe was an all-heal and its names viscus and ixias are connected with vis and ischus (strength) probably because of the spermal viscosity of its berries, sperm being the vehicle of life.[…]
The manner of his death can be reconstructed from a variety of legends, folk customs and other religious survivals. At mid-summer, at the end of a half-year reign, Hercules is made drunk with mead and led into the middle of a circle of twelve stones arranged around an oak, in front of which stands an altar-stone; the oak has been lopped until is it T-shaped. He is bound to it with willow thongs in the “five-fold bond” which joins wrists, neck, and ankles together, beaten by his comrades till he faints, then flayed, blinded, castrated, impaled with a mistletoe stake, and finally hacked into joints on the altar stone.[2] (http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho4.htm#_ftn2) His blood is caught in a basin and used for sprinkling the whole tribe to make them vigorous and fruitful. The joints are roasted at twin fires of oak-loppings, kindled with sacred fire preserved from lightning blasted oak or made by twirling an alder or cornel-wood fire drill in an oak log. […]
The twelve merry men rush in a wild figure-of-eight dance around the fires, singing ecstatically and tearing at the flesh with their teeth. The bloody remains are burnt in the fire, all except the genitals and the head. These are put into an alder-wood boat and floated down a river to an islet; though the head is sometimes cured with smoke and preserved for oracular use. […]
To this type of Hercules belong such diverse characters as Hercules of Oeta, Orion the Hunter of Crete, Polyphemus the Cyclops, Samson the Danite, Cuchulain of Muirthemne the Irish Sun-Hero, Ision the Lapth - who is always depicted stretched in a “five-fold bond” around a Sun-wheel - Agag the Amalekite, Romulus of Rome, Zeus, Janus, Anchises, the Dagda and Hermes. […]
In the classical myth which authorized his sovereignty he is a miraculous child born in a shower of gold; strangles a serpent in his cradle, which is also a boat, and is credited with causing the spurt of milk that made the Milky Way; as a young man he is the undefeated monster-slayer of his age; kills and dismembers a monstrous boar; […] his other self … succeeds him for the second half of the year; having acquired royal virtue by marriage with the queen, the representative of the White Goddess, and by eating some royal part of the dead man’s body - heart, shoulder or thigh-flesh.[3] (http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho4.htm#_ftn3)
We see in the above all the elements of the Jesus myth, realizing that Jesus was said to have been of the Davidic line, the house of Judah, the Tribe of Dan.
To finish off this little diversion, we find another curious remark about the tribe of Dan in Judges 5:17: Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships?
That’s a strange thing; an allusion to a sea-faring people? The prophet Amos seems to have some conviction that this tribe of Dan is a serious threat to Yahweh. He writes in 8:14-15: They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, Oh Dan, liveth; and, the manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
Amos seems to be suggesting that the “sin of Samaria,” is directly connected to the tribe of Dan. And we have some idea already that the “sin of Samaria” was also the sin of Ahab and Jezebel, the House of the Beloved. Which brings us back to the question: just what was the tribe of Dan, and why was it changed to the tribe of Judah? If the tribe of Judah is really the tribe of Dan, then that means that the House of David is the tribe of Dan. And following the clues, we discover that this lineage belonged to Ishmael and Esau, not to Isaac and Jacob. We further discover that the lineage is that of the “architect of the temple of Solomon,” the designer and builder of the Ark of the Covenant, the right hand man of the legendary King Hiram of Tyre.

[smyrna]

It looks as though I'm going to have to go back to Genesis to figure out which of Jacob's children were Leah's and which were Rachel's and what they said after they had named each one.

I'm trying to figure out what the tribe of Dan did that was so wrong.

Revelation:7:4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Re:7:5: Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Re:7:6: Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Re:7:7: Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Re:7:8: Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Benjamin and Joseph were the sons of Rachel. After Joseph was sold into slavery and taken to Egypt, he sent back for his father and younger brother. Jacob, his father blessed the two children that were born to Joseph at that time in Egypt as his offspring. They were Ephraim and Manassah. Pretty much from there after in the old testament, they don't refer to the tribe of Joseph. It is referred to as the half tribe of Manassah or the half tribe of Ephraim.

The fact that both Father and son are mentioned as full tribes in Revelation with no mention of Dan or Ephraim in the 144,000 is a good discussion.

[smyrna]

The other tribes listed are sons of Jacob. Manasseh is the only person who is not an immediate son of Jacob, because he is the son of Joseph. But Joseph is already listed.

Furthermore, Ephraim was Jacob's favorite grandson, not Manasseh.If Jacob's favorites are given some sort of preference in this list of twelve, then why is Manasseh included but not Ephraim? Why is Reuben included when he lost his birthright as Esau had done before?

And, back to you original question, why is Dan, the son of Jacob, not among the twelve?

I don't know that Ephraim was his favorite. Jacob prophecied in his blessing of the two that Ephraim would be the greater in size and influence than his older brother Mannassah, which displeased Joseph.

[smyrna]

I don't know. Joseph liked Ephraim better, but Manasseh was still Joseph's firstborn. Did Reuben also lose his birth as Esau did? Joseph would also be listed, as he was a son of Jacob.

This is confusing me.

Genesis 35:22 (New American Standard Bible)


22It came about while Israel was dwelling in that land, that (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2035:22;&version=49;#cen-NASB-1034A))Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine, and Israel heard of it.

[Mimiheart]

Reuben never lost his birthright.

Edit, sorry, I'm not awake... he lost his birthright as firstborn (possibly because of that incident). He never lost his birthright as a son of Israel.

[Jacob_Rising]

Thank you. I'm also wondering what Poisonshady or Harmonious have to say about the tribe of Dan. I have heard that Samson was a Dannite, and "Dan" can also mean "judge".

Extra-biblically, I have heard it may have been Dannites that moved to Greece and started the Spartans with some of the Greeks.Samson was considered a Nazerite from before he was born and all his life, But I guess that doesn't mean he wasn't of Dan, I just thought I would add that.

I was just about to post a thread about the Spartans that I believe will be interesting, I just ran across alot of things concerning Spartans and Jews yesterday that I found to be very interesting because I have been of the mind that the great Spartan story of the 300 and the movie may have been actually based on one of Jonathon's story about him and his armour bearer.

When General allenby was in the same position in 1917, somebody opened up the bible amongst his troups and found the story of Jonathon and found themselves to be in the same situation.

So he used the same strategy which was genius, a real cool story.

[mgifford]

I find that the real reason for none of Dan being sealed is that none are servants of God at that time. Dan will be restored with the other tribes in the Millennium,

[mgifford]

Ezekiel 48:31-32
And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.

[31] And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. [32] And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

[Jacob_Rising]

I don't know that Ephraim was his favorite. Jacob prophecied in his blessing of the two that Ephraim would be the greater in size and influence than his older brother Mannassah, which displeased Joseph.You are correct here, The first born seems to always be the favorite and it was so in the case of Manasseh.

I believe Cain and Abel were twins and Cain was the first born and Eve said, '' I have gotten a man from the Lord'' . It's interesting what she says here, In Hebrew, Cain{ qayin} and I have gotten{qaniti} represents a play on words. The meaning of Cain is probably , '' Spear''

I believe that Eve believed Cain to be that SEED who would bruise the head of the serpant. I digress or however it spelled.

Ishmael was truly beloved by Abraham and these first born sons always appear to be the manly men that fathers do want.

Esau was the beloved of Isaac, a Hairy man's man, while Jacob was of smooth skin and Jacob had to shed blood to put on skins to decieve his father into thinking it was Esau.

It was the same with Joseph, Joseph wanted the birthright to go to Manasseh.

[Jacob_Rising]

I find that the real reason for none of Dan being sealed is that none are servants of God at that time. Dan will be restored with the other tribes in the Millennium,Gen 49, Dan shall be a serpant by the way, a viper by the path, That bites the Horse's heals so that the rider shall fall backwards.

Dan is for punishment and judgement, I believe all these tribes represent different phases of Israel.

After this was said about Dan, we get this very curious prayer just addded into the middle of these blessings,'' I have waited for your salvation, O Lord''

I believe this is thrown in there because this is the prayer after Dan's punishment.

I believe there will be no punishment for the 144,000 so Dan would have no objective concerning the punishment and judgement of Israel when they are pure virgins.

Alot of people believe Dan is ommitted because they introduced Idolatry into Israel on an official Basis{Judges 18:30-31}{Lev 24:11} {1st Kings 12:28}

But I still believe it means that none of the 144 are punished.

[Jacob_Rising]

I'd have to say that the 144,000 are Jewish male Christians.I've never heard it actually put that way tracy, I know the majority believe these are all Jews but I don't believe I've heard anyone claim them to be Christians.

I would agree with you on this, They are Christians whether Jew or gentile, and because of the number given shows them all to be Priests because there is 144,000 priests in Judaism.

In the times of the temple there were 144,000 priest in Judaism, and so this is showing us Priests.

For them all to be Jewish Christians shows a difference between a Christian gentile and a Christian Jew, and I can roll with that also because Acts claims that Jewish Christians are different in that they still have to follow the commandments of God.

But out of all these tribes mentioned only Judah, Benjamin, and Levi exist today as far as I know. There were most likely Israelis who went over to Judah in 722 b.c but they still became known as Judah or Benjamin or Levi.

New Testament says that there is therefore now no difference between Jew and Gentile if the gentile converts to the religion of the Messiah that was Judaism.

Revelation is showing us who Israel is and it's showing us that all Israel will be priests.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham: But, in Isaac your seed shall be called. that is, those who are of the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: But the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Going by this, These Israelis shown in Revelation are not all neccecarily born Jewish or born Israeli.

They are the only ones sealed with the protection of god, and they are given the greatest role in the past, present or future of what a true Israeli will be and do in the end of the age.

If you believe them all to be Jewish Christians it would mean that Jewish Christians are favored much higher than a gentile Christian.
And they are entrusted to do the most important duty in the last days.

[mgifford]

The 144000, the only company of redeemed composed entirely of Israelites Rev. 7:1-8; Rev. 14:1-5

[Jacob_Rising]

The 144000, the only company of redeemed composed entirely of Israelites Rev. 7:1-8; Rev. 14:1-5I don't think anybody is contesting that, As long as you know what the New Testament says an Israelite is.

A True Israelite can be spotted by what he does and not by the blood in his veins. They are strangers on this Earth whose ways are not the ways of any heathen nation.

All Israel is derived from two kingdoms which are the two witnesses before the Lord.

As a Whole they are to become a Royal Priesthood, and combined as one Holy nation, His own special people.

The 144,000 number only denotes one thing, and that is they are all Holy Priests, THE Royal Priesthoodm and THE Two witnesses.

I would argue that it's not 144,000 at all but it is an idiom meaning that everyone who is considered Israel will be priests to the rest of the world.

The religous system of God is set up so that there is 144,000 priests from all the different districts combined, So it's saying that everyone who is Israel will be a Priest.

The names of the tribes given for the 144 are the 12 levels explained in Gen 49 from the blessings given to them when they are told what will become of them in the last days.

Each tribe has different attributes that are exclusive to each one of them, Each tribe has a Purpose, and each tribe has a level.

The Highest of these Levels is Benjamin.

In my opinion, These are the two witnesses{Ephraim and Judah} who make up the 144,000 which is actually a number uncountable like the sands of the sea.

The Bottum line is, This is God's true Bride.

Your either marked by the seal of protection on your forehead or you are not. This nation of Priests are marked and they will give their lives for God and be killed just as Christ was killed and 3 days later they will follow in the same path and rise again in 3 days.

Yeshuah was the first of fruits and these are the fruits that follow.,

[2Witnesses]

Shalom from Eulat, Israel,

Thus us my first post. But regarding Dan and the 144000. If you review the many lists of the trubes in the Tanach, you will see ut was not uncommon to leave out a tribe now an then.

But some have sepculated that since Dan's name means 'judgement', the Anti-Christ will come from him. I do not beleive this.

AC will come claiming to be the seed of David. If fact, there is one in Israeli' politics now who wishes to restore the Tabernacle of David, and rebuildt the temple. I think this person is AC>

Also, regarding the 144000. I beleuve them to be the same as the Woman in Rev. 12. And this group of chosaen Jews will be brought into the wilderness of Sinai, and protacted from the AC.

2Witnesses http://www.habagministry.com

[Jacob_Rising]

Shalom from Eulat, Israel,

Thus us my first post. But regarding Dan and the 144000. If you review the many lists of the trubes in the Tanach, you will see ut was not uncommon to leave out a tribe now an then.

But some have sepculated that since Dan's name means 'judgement', the Anti-Christ will come from him. I do not beleive this.

AC will come claiming to be the seed of David. If fact, there is one in Israeli' politics now who wishes to restore the Tabernacle of David, and rebuildt the temple. I think this person is AC>

Also, regarding the 144000. I beleuve them to be the same as the Woman in Rev. 12. And this group of chosaen Jews will be brought into the wilderness of Sinai, and protacted from the AC.

2Witnesses http://www.habagministry.comWelcome to the Forum 2W.

Revelation 12 :6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottum less pit will make war against them will overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:11 {FIRST FRUITS} Now after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and GREAT FEAR FELL ON ALL OF THOSE WHO SAW THEM.

Revelation 12:14{The woman} Where she is nourished for a Time and times and Half a time.

Revelation 12:17 and the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7{The woman} And it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Revelation 14:1{Firstfruits resurected after death following in the same pattern as Jesus dying and being resurected}

Then I Looked and behold, a lamb standing on mount Zion, and with him 144,000, having his father's name written on their foreheads............And they sang as it were a new song before the throne...AND NOBODY COULD LEARN THAT SONG EXCEPT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY FOUR THOUSAND WHO WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.

THESE WERE REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN,BEING FIRSTFRUITS TO GOD AND THE LAMB.


So Yes, The Woman is the 144,000 redeemed from the Earth and all those who would be resurected in immortality having become a New creature.

These are the Two witnesses before God who are killed after 3 and a half years and then resurected showing them to be the 144,000 who are killed after 3 and a half years and are resurected.

These are the firstfruits of the promised resurected where everyone who has followed the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus will be resurected as the firstfruits of God and who will reign and rule will the Lord forever.

LOOK AGAIN

Revelation 14:4 {Speaking of the 144,000} THESE WERE REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN{ALL HISTORY} BEING FIRSTFRUITS TO GOD AND TO THE LAMB.



Revelation 21:12 {The Only way into the city of the New Jerusalem}

Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and 12 angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. {You have to enter through these names}

I believe the Two witnesses are gentiles and Jews who are of the Kingdom of Ephraim and of the kingdom of Judah.

They are the 144,000 that consists of everyone who will be resurected as the first fruits of Christ.

You must be counted as one of the 144,000 to be among the first fruits.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.

These people are sealed and are protected from death just before the great multitude of those who are saved die.

This means salvation only, It means that you are not counted amongst the 144,000 who were sealed and you do not survive the first judgement.

Revelation 7 :9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes ,people, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb.

These gentiles died and went to heaven but were still considered gentiles, They were not sealed with protection as the 144,000 were, and thus they will not be the firstfruits in my opinion.

Revelation 14:4 These 144,000 were redeemed from among men, being FIRSTFRUITS.

To be among the Firstfruits, you must be considered amongst these 144,000 which I believe represents millions, The number denotes that they are all Priests.

[2Witnesses]

hi Jacvob

I could not find your reply. But this I will say, Benjamin is Zion! He was the least. But He was made a great mulitude in YeShua, Isa. 59.

The 144000 is the redemption God promised the Jews. If you go to Google Groups and type in "Hagar: My Beloved' you will understadn.

2Witnesses

[Jacob_Rising]

hi Jacvob

I could not find your reply. But this I will say, Benjamin is Zion! He was the least. But He was made a great mulitude in YeShua, Isa. 59.

The 144000 is the redemption God promised the Jews. If you go to Google Groups and type in "Hagar: My Beloved' you will understadn.

2WitnessesYes , I agree.

Jerusalem is in Benjamin and he the only true brother of Joseph with the same Mother, and Jonathon was the true beloved of David and he was from the tribe of Benjamin.

Benjamin is the only tribe in both kingdoms of Israel. David Built Jerusalem in Benjamin in order to unite the two kingdoms and Benjamin is both.

Benjamin is the last stage of Gen 49 showing what he will do in the last days.

I belive gentiles are grafted through the Northern lost tribes of Israel, and there is still the kingdom of Judah today.

I believe the true brethren of the Lord are Benjamin whether they are a part of Judah or a part of Israel.

I see Benjamin as Zion also.