Question to Protestants?

[byzantine catholic]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?

[vir doctus]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?

:idea: If you build your house on sandy land don't be surprised when it falls.

[CID_0687]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?
"The only thing different in sinners and saints, is one is forgiven and the other one ain't"- George Jones

All who believe are saints...and God is no respecter of persons, meaning that you, or me, or St. Augustine mean nothing more to God than does the man down the street. We're all equal in his eyes, so we see no reason to give more respect or admiration to any certain individual, than we would to another.

[byzantine catholic]

:idea: If you build your house on sandy land don't be surprised when it falls.Huh?

[byzantine catholic]

"The only thing different in sinners and saints, is one is forgiven and the other one ain't"- George Jones

All who believe are saints...and God is no respecter of persons, meaning that you, or me, or St. Augustine mean nothing more to God than does the man down the street. We're all equal in his eyes, so we see no reason to give more respect or admiration to any certain individual, than we would to another.Yes but do not you think that some people are holier than others.

[vir doctus]

Huh?

Your premise is flawed.

[vir doctus]

Yes but do not you think that some people are holier than others.

"For all have sinned and fall short..."

[CID_0687]

Yes but do not you think that some people are holier than others.
Holier? No...More spiritually tuned in? Yes.

Which means that they are more Christ-minded, but, be it someone found God last Tuesday or in 1932, none is more holy than the other.

Wiser they may be, some may have more of the servant's heart...but the only entities qualified to be called Holy are God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[byzantine catholic]

Your premise is flawed.Yeah Lutherans have saints but do not ask them to interceed to God.

[byzantine catholic]

"For all have sinned and fall short..."Saints are people who have been recognized by the Pope and the Catholic Church as holy and venerable and reported miracles at their grave. Everybody can have the potential to be a saint.

[vir doctus]

Saints are people who have been recognized by the Pope and the Catholic Church as holy and venerable and reported miracles at their grave. Everybody can have the potential to be a saint.

Your definition of saint is different from mine.

[byzantine catholic]

Your definition of saint is different from mine.That is why we are different denominations!:))

[vir doctus]

That is why we are different denominations!:))

I'm a Believer, what are you?

[CID_0687]

I'm a Believer, what are you?
:dance:

[noelle12]

I used to be under the impression that Christianity was divided into the following categories:
Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Protestant
LDS

I have come to realize that these generalities are far from satisfactory for most Christians.

What denominations are correctly considered "Protestant"?

[vir doctus]

What denominations are correctly considered "Protestant"?

:idea: Those derived from Shakespeare.

[CID_0687]

I used to be under the impression that Christianity was divided into the following categories:
Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Protestant
LDS

I have come to realize that these generalities are far from satisfactory for most Christians.

What denominations are correctly considered "Protestant"?
That's a good question.

I would think that Protestant would have to be Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other denominations that came out of the Reformation....of course I've been in some Methodist churches that could fall under the Evangelical category as well.

Evangelical would include Baptist, the many Pentecostal denominations; Assemblies of God, Church of God, Foursquare, International Pentecostal Holiness, etc...

[optrader]

Yes but do not you think that some people are holier than others.

As no human being, except Christ, was ever holy, I can't accept the notion that any human being can label another human being "holy."

[Koushi Shinigami]

"For all have sinned and fall short..."

"All" would include Jesus as well.

[vir doctus]

"All" would include Jesus as well.

How can God fall short of the glory of God? :eh:

[Koushi Shinigami]

How can God fall short of the glory of God? :eh:

Through literalism....

[Lie Sniper]

My understanding, of a Saint, is someone who has fought the good fight, kept the faith and persevered to the end.

I have great respect for those who have finished the race, but no more respect then I do for those who are still in it, but have not yet finished.

[Thank you Troops]

I am protestant and I believe the Bible teaches that all Christians are saints. So yes I believe in saints.

1 Corinthians 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"

[Koushi Shinigami]

My understanding, of a Saint,

My understanding is that just about every denomination has created their own meaning of that word.

[vir doctus]

Through literalism....

People misunderstand 'literalism', historically it did not mean there was no room for literary style.

[Koushi Shinigami]

People misunderstand 'literalism', historically it did not mean there was no room for literary style.

Literary style impedes clear understanding.

[vir doctus]

Literary style impedes clear understanding.

I disagree.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I disagree.

Knew you would.

Mathematics is the only clear language.

[cbut1]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?

I am not a Protestant but I would like to answer your flawed premise question anyways. :)

I believe in Saints but not in the same fashion or manner that Catholics do.

[gpd®]

Knew you would.

Mathematics is the only clear language.

Ever see the first season episode of SG1 where they showed that the elements and their relationship to molecules was the only true universal language.

[byzantine catholic]

I'm a Believer, what are you?I am a Christian but my point is that we believe in some different things than eachother.:))

[vir doctus]

I am a Christian but my point is that we believe in some different things than eachother.:))

If you study hard you may catch up. :cool:

[terri910]

I am not a Protestant but I would like to answer your flawed premise question anyways. :)

I believe in Saints but not in the same fashion or manner that Catholics do.
I am Catholic and I have previously disagreed with byz's "fashion or manner" of defining "saint," which does not seem to make the distinction between "saint" as any believer (without which definition the doctrine of the communion of saints makes no sense) and canonized "Saint."

[byzantine catholic]

I am Catholic and I have previously disagreed with byz's "fashion or manner" of defining "saint," which does not seem to make the distinction between "saint" as any believer (without which definition the doctrine of the communion of saints makes no sense) and canonized "Saint."I think I am pretty smart for my age!:rolleyes:

[terri910]

I think I am pretty smart for my age!:rolleyes:
I know you do. :rolleyes:


No doubt in five years, you'll be amazed by how much the rest of us have learned.

[byzantine catholic]

I know you do. :rolleyes:Do not worry terri I will be your priest!:))

[terri910]

Do not worry terri I will be your priest!:))
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/crossingself.gif

[byzantine catholic]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/crossingself.gifWhat does that icon mean?

[terri910]

What does that icon mean?
It is a female crossing herself and praying. Kind of hard to see on a dark background!

[military mom]

We don't pray to saints. Have some people led aintly lives? Sure. The Bible says, There will be no other Gods before me. It also say not to honor graven images

[terri910]

We don't pray to saints. Have some people led aintly lives? Sure. The Bible says, There will be no other Gods before me. It also say not to honor graven images
Wow! It's a good thing Catholics don't do those, then!

[TaylorW65]

We don't pray to saints. Have some people led aintly lives? Sure. The Bible says, There will be no other Gods before me. It also say not to honor graven images

I think that is a big misconception of what Catholics teach and practice.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Ever see the first season episode of SG1 where they showed that the elements and their relationship to molecules was the only true universal language.

Missed that one.

[Koushi Shinigami]

We don't pray to saints. Have some people led aintly lives? Sure. The Bible says, There will be no other Gods before me. It also say not to honor graven images

Who does that?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I know you do. :rolleyes:


No doubt in five years, you'll be amazed by how much the rest of us have learned.

My dad told me when I was a boy, that when I became a teenager, he would be the dumbest person on the planet. He also told me that after I moved out on my own and grew older, he'd get smarter with every passing year.


You know. The old fart was right. :wall::wall::wall::wall:

I love my dad.

[Fire Watch]

Who does that?
01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00101100 00100000 01001101 01100001 01110010 01111001 00101100 00100000 01000110 01110101 01101100 01101100 01100101 01110010 00101100 00100000 01000111 01110010 01100001 01100011 01100101 00101110 00100000 01000001 01110100 01110100 01101111 01110010 01101110 01100101 01111001 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01001100 01100001 01110111

:whistle:

[terri910]

That's just mean, Fire Watch...:naughty:

[Fire Watch]

http://bestsmileys.com/cartoon/9.gif

[Koushi Shinigami]

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00101100 00100000 01001101 01100001 01110010 01111001 00101100 00100000 01000110 01110101 01101100 01101100 01100101 01110010 00101100 00100000 01000111 01110010 01100001 01100011 01100101 00101110 00100000 01000001 01110100 01110100 01101111 01110010 01101110 01100101 01111001 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01001100 01100001 01110111

:whistle:

:))

01001001 00100000 01101111 01101110 01100011 01100101 00100000 01110011 01100001 01110111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01101111 01100110 01100110 01101001 01100011 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01000100 01100101 01110111 01111001 00101100 00100000 01000011 01101000 01100101 01100001 01110100 01101000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01001000 01101111 01110111 01100101 00100000 01101111 01101110 00100000 01001000 01100001 01110010 01110110 01100001 01110010 01100100 00100000 01010011 01110001 01110101 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01001101 01100001 01110011 01110011 00101110 00001101 00001010

[Snow]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?

You mean saints with a small s? Like members of the Christ's church?

-or do you mean Saints with a capital S - like Saint Drogo, the patron saint against kidney disease.

If the former, then yes.

If the latter then what do you mean "believe in?"

Believe that they actually existed as real human beings?

-or believe that God somehow thinks they are special enough that we should venerate them and they should intercede with God on our behalf?

If the former, yes. If the latter, no of course not. There is no evidence that God thinks they are special and there in only one mediator between God and man - Christ and beyond Christ no one need intercede for us with God.

[Snow]

Who does that?

Catholics for starters. I lived in South America and some people there definately worshiped the Virgin Mary.

[Koushi Shinigami]

And there goes that can-o-worms. :razz:

[vir doctus]

Catholics for starters. I lived in South America and some people there definately worshiped the Virgin Mary.

Guess that makes them not so Catholic...

[Snow]

Guess that makes them not so Catholic...

Not so Catholic according to you but they were certainly Catholic in Ecuador, very devote and committed.

Here's a picture of their equivalent of the Statue of Liberty:

http://www.goecuador.com/ecuador-general-info/imgs/panecillo-ecuador-01.jpg


And here's just a note on someone's opinion of the reason for such worship:

http://www.exploringecuador.com/en_ar_virgin_mary_cuenca.htm

[vir doctus]

Not so Catholic according to you but they were certainly Catholic in Ecuador, very devote and committed.

Here's a picture of their equivalent of the Statue of Liberty:

http://www.goecuador.com/ecuador-general-info/imgs/panecillo-ecuador-01.jpg


And here's just a note on someone's opinion of the reason for such worship:

http://www.exploringecuador.com/en_ar_virgin_mary_cuenca.htm

People are free to call themselves whatever they want, doesn't make it so. Just like you are free to say they worship Mary, even if they don't.

[terri910]

Not so Catholic according to you but they were certainly Catholic in Ecuador, very devote and committed.

Here's a picture of their equivalent of the Statue of Liberty:

http://www.goecuador.com/ecuador-general-info/imgs/panecillo-ecuador-01.jpg


And here's just a note on someone's opinion of the reason for such worship:

http://www.exploringecuador.com/en_ar_virgin_mary_cuenca.htm
Isn't it interesting that "someone's opinion" isn't of the reason for "worship" but for the "importance of Mary" to the region's history and for "devotion" to Mary?

[buflineks]

I noticed the usage of the word "icon", in this discussion.

Might I suggest that some more interested in the concept read the letter of Gregory the Great to Serenus of Marseille.

[RayMan]

I know you do. :rolleyes:


No doubt in five years, you'll be amazed by how much the rest of us have learned.

Just like Mark Twain and his dad.

[vir doctus]

I noticed the usage of the word "icon", in this discussion.

Might I suggest that some more interested in the concept read the letter of Gregory the Great to Serenus of Marseille.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf213.ii.v.xliv.html

[tracifish]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?

We believe in saints:

Ph'p:1:1: Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:


Romans15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Heb:6:10: For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

[5thIDSoldier]

Sainthood was always silly to me in the Catholic sense. To me it is a another generic term for those who are believers.

[Ron Jon]

Who does that?I don't know what religion these people are, but it sure looks like they are praying to that statue.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I don't know what religion these people are, but it sure looks like they are praying to that statue.

Ever hear that looks can be deceiving?

When you can look at a picture and read the minds of the people in the image, get back to me.

[tracifish]

http://reformationnation.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/mary-worship.jpgI don't know what religion these people are, but it sure looks like they are praying to that statue.

It sure does. :eek:

[Ron Jon]

Ever hear that looks can be deceiving?

When you can look at a picture and read the minds of the people in the image, get back to me.I never said I could read their minds. But the next time I see someone bowing on bended knee before a statue, I'll be sure to ask them what they are doing. :rolleyes:

[Koushi Shinigami]

I never said I could read their minds. But the next time I see someone bowing on bended knee before a statue, I'll be sure to ask them what they are doing. :rolleyes:

Do that. And let me know if they say "I'm worshiping this statue". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Ron Jon]

We don't pray to saints. Have some people led aintly lives? Sure. The Bible says, There will be no other Gods before me. It also say not to honor graven imagesWho does that?Let me refresh your memory. You asked who "does that?" in reference to praying to saints and honoring graven images. I simply provided a couple of photos documenting the fact that some people DO pray before statues and that it does have the appearance of worship. The appearance may be wrong, but it is there nonetheless.

[tracifish]

Ever hear that looks can be deceiving?

When you can look at a picture and read the minds of the people in the image, get back to me.

1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.

[Ron Jon]

1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil."Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble." 1 Cor 8:13

The point is if performing a certain action causes your brother (in Christ) to stumble, wouldn't it be best to avoid performing that action in their presence to avoid causing them to stumble? Hey, if people want to pray before graven images, I won't stop them. But maybe they should do so in the privacy of their own homes and churches.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Let me refresh your memory. You asked who "does that?" in reference to praying to saints and honoring graven images. I simply provided a couple of photos documenting the fact that some people DO pray before statues and that it does have the appearance of worship. The appearance may be wrong, but it is there nonetheless.

My memory is just fine.

I continually see the attempt to beat Catholics on this board with the same stick over and over and over. And I've seen and read their responses to the same attacks. And it ocurrs to me that untill those that are swinging that stick have the ability to look into people's hearts and know their minds as God alone can do, they would do well to judge not and instead examine their own sins first.

Want me to throw an image of 'Christian Love' as demonstrated by phelps and his clan up here, and then intimate that it speaks for all evangelicals?

[Koushi Shinigami]

1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.

worry about the beam in your own eye before the splinter in your brother's.

[tracifish]

"Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble." 1 Cor 8:13

The point is if performing a certain action causes your brother (in Christ) to stumble, wouldn't it be best to avoid performing that action in their presence to avoid causing them to stumble? Hey, if people want to pray before graven images, I won't stop them. But maybe they should do so in the privacy of their own homes and churches.

That's funny! I was just about to post this:

1Co:8:5: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co:8:6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co:8:7: Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co:8:8: But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co:8:9: But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co:8:10: For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co:8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co:8:12: But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co:8:13: Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

[Koushi Shinigami]

"Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble." 1 Cor 8:13

The point is if performing a certain action causes your brother (in Christ) to stumble, wouldn't it be best to avoid performing that action in their presence to avoid causing them to stumble? Hey, if people want to pray before graven images, I won't stop them. But maybe they should do so in the privacy of their own homes and churches.


That would be the reason for the First Ammendment now. Wouldn't it.

To protect those people's rights from you.

[Ron Jon]

My memory is just fine.

I continually see the attempt to beat Catholics on this board with the same stick over and over and over. And I've seen and read their responses to the same attacks. And it ocurrs to me that untill those that are swinging that stick have the ability to look into people's hearts and know their minds as God alone can do, they would do well to judge not and instead examine their own sins first.

Want me to throw an image of 'Christian Love' as demonstrated by phelps and his clan up here, and then intimate that it speaks for all evangelicals?Is that what you think I'm doing? Beating Catholics over the head (by showing a couple of pictures)? Are you admitting praying before graven images is a "sin"? If not, then why bring it up?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Is that what you think I'm doing? Beating Catholics over the head (by showing a couple of pictures)? Are you admitting praying before graven images is a "sin"? If not, then why bring it up?

Praying 'before' graven images? No. It's not a sin. It's a location.

Praying "TO" graven images? Yes. That's a sin. It's intent to worship something other than God. But why limit it to carvings. How about not worshiping books as well?

If non-Catholics don't think it's a sin, why do they keep bringing it up and condeming Catholics for what the non-Cathlics THINK the Catholics are doing?

[tracifish]

worry about the beam in your own eye before the splinter in your brother's.

2Tm:2:24: And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Tm:2:25: In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Tm:2:26: And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Eph:5:11: And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

[Ron Jon]

That would be the reason for the First Ammendment now. Wouldn't it.

To protect those people's rights from you.Apparently, you just don't get it. I'm not talking about the rights of a U.S. Citizen. I'm talking about the attitude and actions of Christians. If something I'm doing in public causes one of my brother's (or sisters) in Christ to stumble, then the fault lies with me, not them.

[tracifish]

Praying 'before' graven images? No. It's not a sin. It's a location.

Praying "TO" graven images? Yes. That's a sin. It's intent to worship something other than God. But why limit it to carvings. How about not worshiping books as well?

If non-Catholics don't think it's a sin, why do they keep bringing it up and condeming Catholics for what the non-Cathlics THINK the Catholics are doing?

Look at the appearance? Do you not think it will cause others to stumble? God is not the author of confusion.

[Tim]

(snip) God is not the author of confusion.

Are you sure? Have you visited the "trinity" thread? :doh::)) (just kidding)

[Koushi Shinigami]

Apparently, you just don't get it. I'm not talking about the rights of a U.S. Citizen. I'm talking about the attitude and actions of Christians. If something I'm doing in public causes one of my brother's (or sisters) in Christ to stumble, then the fault lies with me, not them.

I disagree. Your brothers and sisters are responsible for their own souls and are to be responsible enough to check out and understand what they see.

And perhaps, they should learn to accept an explanation when it's given.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Look at the appearance? Do you not think it will cause others to stumble? God is not the author of confusion.

Stumble? No. If they are so weak in their faith that seeing something someone else is doing causes them to stuble, the problem lies with them, not whom they see.

Yes He is. I refer you to Gen 1 page 1 through the last page of Revelation.

[tracifish]

worry about the beam in your own eye before the splinter in your brother's.

Okay. To be sure I do not have a beam, will you give me a list of beams and a list of splinters?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Okay. To be sure I do not have a beam, will you give me a list of beams and a list of splinters?

That, my friend, is between you and God. I have my own cellulose debris to worry about.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You have read Catholics on this board explain what you are seeing when you look at a picture like Ron posted. Do you believe their explanations?

[Ron Jon]

Praying 'before' graven images? No. It's not a sin. It's a location.

Praying "TO" graven images? Yes. That's a sin. It's intent to worship something other than God. But why limit it to carvings. How about not worshiping books as well?

If non-Catholics don't think it's a sin, why do they keep bringing it up and condeming Catholics for what the non-Cathlics THINK the Catholics are doing?There are plenty of anti-Catholic websites and books which are devoted to condemning them for worshipping Mary and the Saints. I do not. But I am not so naive or blind not to see both points of view. Again, my statement is for Christians alone. If you (Christian) are doing something which causes your brother (in Christ) to stumble, then stop. This isn't about praying before a statue, it could be applied to anything (smoking, drinking, dancing, etc.). To YOU it may not be wrong, but we have got to start looking beyond ourselves and see how our actions affect the people around us.

I have a neighbor who is LDS. I do not see anything wrong with drinking coffee. However, for him, it goes against the Word of Wisdom. Therefore, I will NOT drink coffee in front of him or offer him a cup of coffee when he comes over to my home.

I would have the same respect for my Jewish friends. They do not eat pork. Just because I do does not give me the right to invite them to a pork chops dinner! Just because we CAN do something in public, doesn't mean we SHOULD.

[vir doctus]

I never said I could read their minds. But the next time I see someone bowing on bended knee before a statue, I'll be sure to ask them what they are doing. :rolleyes:

"But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this."

"Go in peace," Elisha said.

- 2 Kings 5

[Ron Jon]

I disagree. Your brothers and sisters are responsible for their own souls and are to be responsible enough to check out and understand what they see.

And perhaps, they should learn to accept an explanation when it's given.That would require maturity on their part. Are you now going to judge them and say they are not mature Christians? So much for your holier-than-thou "judge not" comment earlier.

[buflineks]

I don't know what religion these people are, but it sure looks like they are praying to that statue.

What's that old adage about "assuming"?:whistle:

[Ron Jon]

Stumble? No. If they are so weak in their faith that seeing something someone else is doing causes them to stuble, the problem lies with them, not whom they see.

Yes He is. I refer you to Gen 1 page 1 through the last page of Revelation.And I would refer you to 1 Corinthians 8.

[vir doctus]

If you (Christian) are doing something which causes your brother (in Christ) to stumble, then stop.

It seems we have gone from a picture of people in another culture to personal relationships. Are you responsible for the witness a picture of you in your daily life sends to a believer in a refugee camp in Africa?

[Ron Jon]

You have read Catholics on this board explain what you are seeing when you look at a picture like Ron posted. Do you believe their explanations?Can any one person speak for an entire group of people? Or, can they only tell you what they personally believe and practice? Adoration and devotion to Mary is so close to idolatry in some (predominantly) Catholic countries that it is very difficult to see a difference.

[buflineks]

! Just because we CAN do something in public, doesn't mean we SHOULD.

So the First Amendment should only apply to your definition of "christian"?

Does that mean that if you are at a fundraiser and there is an Athiest in the audience, you will stand and up and protest a Benediction? What if there is a Jew? Will you protest using the words "Jesus Christ"?

I guess that also means you are also for taking the words "In God We Trust" off of legal tender.

[vir doctus]

I don't know what religion these people are, but it sure looks like they are praying to that statue.

Never been brought to your knee for any reason but prayer?

[vir doctus]

Adoration and devotion to Mary is so close to idolatry in some (predominantly) Catholic countries that it is very difficult to see a difference.

Not married? :eh:

[buflineks]

Adoration and devotion to Mary is so close to idolatry in some (predominantly) Catholic countries that it is very difficult to see a difference.

Catholics do not practice "Adoration and devotion", they practice "Veneration". Now if you can't understand the difference between the two, well, that isn't the fault of any Catholic. That would just show an inability on your part to comprehend.

That has been discussed ad nausem on this board.

[tracifish]

Stumble? No. If they are so weak in their faith that seeing something someone else is doing causes them to stuble, the problem lies with them, not whom they see.

Yes He is. I refer you to Gen 1 page 1 through the last page of Revelation.

Paul explained that meat offered to idols is nothing, as long as one is not informed the meat was offered to an idol...but for the sake of "baby Christians", Paul abstained from meat.

It is like Christians that do not drink because they do not want to cause a weaker Christian to stumble.

Praying in front of graven images is not an option, such as eating meat or sipping a glass of wine. CLEARLY the bible says not to worship graven images.

And if we are to avoid all appearance of evil...we ought not even appear to be worshiping graven images. Do you see what I'm saying?


And God is NOT the author of confusion. We are confused due to our fallen nature. The Holy Spirit helps us with the things that are spiritually discerned, but there will always be some passages we cannot completely "wrap our brains around". That's us, not God.

[Ron Jon]

What's that old adage about "assuming"?:whistle:That's why I would ask. :angel:

[buflineks]

I've spent my entire life as a Catholic. In that time, I have never prayed before a "Graven Image".

I guess it's because I have been raised in the Faith, that I know the difference between "Adoration" and "Veneration".

I know the purpose of those "proclaimed Graven Images". In fact I've even made a reference on this thread for those who would care to enlighten themselves as to Icons and their use.

Oh well, if people don't want to honestly learn about them, who am I to try and beat my head against the wall.

However, don't let the drug of falsely being right take you too fare. That leads to pride.

[Ron Jon]

It seems we have gone from a picture of people in another culture to personal relationships. Are you responsible for the witness a picture of you in your daily life sends to a believer in a refugee camp in Africa?I am responsible for all of my actions. I do not know under what circumstances these 2 photos were taken. It does no good to speculate. All I know is Koushi asked who would do such a thing (honor a graven image or pray to a statue) and I showed a couple of photographic examples. Maybe they weren't praying to the statue. Maybe they were just tired and were resting on their knees. Or maybe they were praying to God and were using the image of the statue as a focusing point. Who knows. Call it what you want, but the APPEARANCE is what I was referring to.

[buflineks]

Call it what you want, but the APPEARANCE is what I was referring to.

and what is that old adage concerning "appearences"?:whistle:

[Ron Jon]

So the First Amendment should only apply to your definition of "christian"?

Does that mean that if you are at a fundraiser and there is an Athiest in the audience, you will stand and up and protest a Benediction? What if there is a Jew? Will you protest using the words "Jesus Christ"?

I guess that also means you are also for taking the words "In God We Trust" off of legal tender.I am a Christian. As a Christian we should be mindful of Christ and emulate His attitudes and actions. Sometimes we have to consider the well-being of others before our own. This world is not my home, my citizenship is in heaven. You can take "In God We Trust" off of legal tender, but it will not change in whom I trust.

[Ron Jon]

Never been brought to your knee for any reason but prayer?Have you never looked at a picture and thought to yourself, "what does this look like to me?"

[tracifish]

That, my friend, is between you and God. I have my own cellulose debris to worry about.

I believe we will not be entirely cellulose-free until we shuffle off these mortal coils. It is hard. However, I do not want to lead a brother to sin...or cause a seeker to stumble....or be misled in any way.

So if I see another gospel being taught, that means alot of people are going to say and do things they believe are of the gospel. If it were me, I'd want someone to correct me....and when others are saying and doing things they believe are of the gospel, I often can't do or say anything in person....that's why I leave tracts around and post on the internet.

[Ron Jon]

Catholics do not practice "Adoration and devotion", they practice "Veneration". Now if you can't understand the difference between the two, well, that isn't the fault of any Catholic. That would just show an inability on your part to comprehend.

That has been discussed ad nausem on this board.Splitting hairs? Which shows a greater love for Mary, in your opinion? Adoration and devotion or Veneration?

[buflineks]

Sometimes we have to consider the well-being of others before our own. .

So if you're so considerate of others, then why are you concerned about what Catholics do?

Are you engaging in the "Great Commission"?

If you are, then aren't you suppose to "Build a City on the Hill"?

If you are engaging in the "Great Commision", then you are by definition, involving yourself in others lives and not giving them any consideration. You are for a fact, proslytizing them and telling them that they are wrong. Ergo, the statements you have made (concerning be considerate of others who have different religious opinions) is contradicted.

[tracifish]

and what is that old adage concerning "appearences"?:whistle:

Who cares what man says? What does the bible say?

Ro:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

[buflineks]

Splitting hairs? Which shows a greater love for Mary, in your opinion? Adoration and devotion or Veneration?

It's only splitting hair because you evidently don't understand either concept and consider them synonymus.

My opinion doesn't matter, because you have shown that you're not even the slightest bit interested in truely understanding the difference.

[Ron Jon]

I've spent my entire life as a Catholic. In that time, I have never prayed before a "Graven Image".

I guess it's because I have been raised in the Faith, that I know the difference between "Adoration" and "Veneration".

I know the purpose of those "proclaimed Graven Images". In fact I've even made a reference on this thread for those who would care to enlighten themselves as to Icons and their use.

Oh well, if people don't want to honestly learn about them, who am I to try and beat my head against the wall.

However, don't let the drug of falsely being right take you too fare. That leads to pride.I would never accuse you (or any Catholic on this message board) of worshipping graven images and idols. However, to say it doesn't happen is, imho, naive. Let's step away from Roman Catholicism for a moment. Do you think it's POSSIBLE that there MIGHT be a religion which does worship or pray to stone idols (graven images)?

[tracifish]

That's why I would ask. :angel:

:clap:

[Ron Jon]

and what is that old adage concerning "appearences"?:whistle:I think Koushi already quoted that one. :lol: Again, LOOK at the 2 photos and tell me WHERE on either one they are of Mary (the mother of Jesus). For all we know, they could be of some other woman. The photo simply doesn't tell us. So, we are left to speculation.

[buflineks]

Who cares what man says? What does the bible say?

Ro:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

You know what traci, I can show you photograph after photograph of men on their knees around a jeep praying.
Does that mean that they are adoring a jeep?

Because if you follow the arguement you've presented on this thread, then there are men in this world who have adored and worshiped a jeep.

[buflineks]

I think Koushi already quoted that one. :lol: Again, LOOK at the 2 photos and tell me WHERE on either one they are of Mary (the mother of Jesus). For all we know, they could be of some other woman. The photo simply doesn't tell us. So, we are left to speculation.

That's right, there are several female saints that the Statue could be.

Therefore, any specualtion by the photograph alone is nothing more than sheer conjecture, including the assertion that the people on their knees are "Adoring and worshipping" the Icon.

btw, isn't speculation what leads to gossip?

[Ron Jon]

So if you're so considerate of others, then why are you concerned about what Catholics do?

Are you engaging in the "Great Commission"?

If you are, then aren't you suppose to "Build a City on the Hill"?

If you are engaging in the "Great Commision", then you are by definition, involving yourself in others lives and not giving them any consideration. You are for a fact, proslytizing them and telling them that they are wrong. Ergo, the statements you have made (concerning be considerate of others who have different religious opinions) is contradicted.Gee, and all this time I thought we were all Christian "brothers" and "sisters". :confused: Why would I want to proselytize a fellow believer in Christ? The "Great Commission" is meant for those who do not believe in Christ. :think:

[tracifish]

You know what traci, I can show you photograph after photograph of men on their knees around a jeep praying.
Does that mean that they are adoring a jeep?

Because if you follow the arguement you've presented on this thread, then there are men in this world who have adored and worshiped a jeep.

I don't know. Will you show me some of the photographs, please?

[Ron Jon]

It's only splitting hair because you evidently don't understand either concept and consider them synonymus.

My opinion doesn't matter, because you have shown that you're not even the slightest bit interested in truely understanding the difference.If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. :)

I'll let you go first. What does "adoration and devotion" mean to you vs "Veneration"?

[Ron Jon]

That's right, there are several female saints that the Statue could be.

Therefore, any specualtion by the photograph alone is nothing more than sheer conjecture, including the assertion that the people on their knees are "Adoring and worshipping" the Icon.

btw, isn't speculation what leads to gossip?Yes, conjecture. However, I'm not the one who asserts that the people in the photo are worshipping the statue. I simply stated my opinion on the appearance it gave. People see different things when looking at the same picture. So, what does that tell us? If you and I see the same thing, does that mean we will interpret it the same way? No.

[tracifish]

That's right, there are several female saints that the Statue could be.

Therefore, any specualtion by the photograph alone is nothing more than sheer conjecture, including the assertion that the people on their knees are "Adoring and worshipping" the Icon.

btw, isn't speculation what leads to gossip?

What is a person supposed to do while seeing a group of persons bowing before a statue? It's a little bit shocking, to say the least. It is almost akin to seeing somebody walk off a cliff.

[buflineks]

I don't know. Will you show me some of the photographs, please?

Here tell me about this picture.

Is the soldier worshiping the priest?

Is he worshiping the Jeep?

www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg (http://forums.hannity.com/www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg)

[buflineks]

What is a person supposed to do while seeing a group of persons bowing before a statue? It's a little bit shocking, to say the least. It is almost akin to seeing somebody walk off a cliff.

really?

You equate Catholic practices with death?

[tracifish]

Yes, conjecture. However, I'm not the one who asserts that the people in the photo are worshipping the statue. I simply stated my opinion on the appearance it gave. People see different things when looking at the same picture. So, what does that tell us? If you and I see the same thing, does that mean we will interpret it the same way? No.

I wonder:

If we were to ask each and every person we see praying before a statue, "what are you doing?"....would some say they are worshiping the statue?

Would some say they are worshiping the saint or deity the statue represents?

Would some say they are seeking the deity or saint's intercession?

I'd like to see Buff take the survey and get back to us on the variety of answers....

[buflineks]

Yes, conjecture. However, I'm not the one who asserts that the people in the photo are worshipping the statue. I simply stated my opinion on the appearance it gave. People see different things when looking at the same picture. So, what does that tell us? If you and I see the same thing, does that mean we will interpret it the same way? No.

especially in this case Ron.
I know what is being done because I'm Catholic. I don't have to guess, I don't have to speculate. They're praying. They aren't worshipping, they aren't adoring, they're just simply praying just like other people do. However, they are doing it in front of an Icon.

But you are specualting that it is "praying to a Graven Image" based upon an misinterpretaiton that began in during the 7th Century, and was picked up again 800 years later.

[tracifish]

Here tell me about this picture.

Is the soldier worshiping the priest?

Is he worshiping the Jeep?

www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg (http://forums.hannity.com/www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg)

I keep getting a 404 error message. :(

[Ron Jon]

Here tell me about this picture.

Is the soldier worshiping the priest?

Is he worshiping the Jeep?

www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg (http://www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg)

Looks like the soldier is praying before the priest. Again, I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

[buflineks]

I wonder:

If we were to ask each and every person we see praying before a statue, "what are you doing?"....would some say they are worshiping the statue?

Would some say they are worshiping the saint or deity the statue represents?

Would some say they are seeking the deity or saint's intercession?

I'd like to see Buff take the survey and get back to us on the variety of answers....

I'd like to see you take that survey. I'd like to see you go into a Catholic church and start asking all the little old ladies there if they were worshipping the statue.

In fact, why don't you do that tracy? And when you find one person who confirms to you that they are worshipping the icon, you come back here and let us all know.

[tracifish]

really?

You equate Catholic practices with death?

Please don't ask.

[Ron Jon]

especially in this case Ron.
I know what is being done because I'm Catholic. I don't have to guess, I don't have to speculate. They're praying. They aren't worshipping, they aren't adoring, they're just simply praying just like other people do. However, they are doing it in front of an Icon.

But you are specualting that it is "praying to a Graven Image" based upon an misinterpretaiton that began in during the 7th Century, and was picked up again 800 years later.From a Protestant viewpoint, "Prayer" and "Worship" go hand-in-hand.

[Ron Jon]

I keep getting a 404 error message. :(
http://www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg

Try this one.

[buflineks]

Looks like the soldier is praying before the priest. Again, I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

How do you know?

Why is that picture any different than the one put up by Ron?

Is it because of the icon?

I could show that picture to other protestants who will tell me that it a Catholic worshipping a Priest. (don't laught, I've actually met protestants who think that I "worship priests" and "pray to them".)

[buflineks]

http://www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg

Try this one.

Thanks Ron.

I'm computer illiterate.:wall:

[tracifish]

I'd like to see you take that survey. I'd like to see you go into a Catholic church and start asking all the little old ladies there if they were worshipping the statue.

In fact, why don't you do that tracy? And when you find one person who confirms to you that they are worshipping the icon, you come back here and let us all know.

I'm thinking of doing that. My question wouldn't be "Were you worshiping the statue?"...but "What were you doing?".

How about you? Will you also take the survey?

[buflineks]

From a Protestant viewpoint, "Prayer" and "Worship" go hand-in-hand.

So now Catholics have to do things according to "protestant" viewpoints?

I believe that's what some of the wars during the reformation were about.

Do you really want to start that again? I don't.

[Ron Jon]

I'd like to see you take that survey. I'd like to see you go into a Catholic church and start asking all the little old ladies there if they were worshipping the statue.

In fact, why don't you do that tracy? And when you find one person who confirms to you that they are worshipping the icon, you come back here and let us all know.It might be better to simply ask "what are you doing?" And let the person answer in their own words. I might do that and post the results here. But, to be respectful, I wouldn't want to interrupt them. So, how would an honest investigator proceed? Should they ask the parish priest for permission first? I know the sanctuary is a solemn place and I wouldn't want to cause a disruption. Would it be better to ask outside of the sanctuary?

[buflineks]

I'm thinking of doing that. My question wouldn't be "Were you worshiping the statue?"...but "What were you doing?".

How about you? Will you also take the survey?

No, don't change the question.

You stated that when people fall on their knees before an Icon, it appears that they are worshipping a "Graven Image".

Now, are you going to do it or not?

[tracifish]

http://www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg

Try this one.

Yikes! :eek:

You do not want to know what I think of that.

[vir doctus]

From a Protestant viewpoint, "Prayer" and "Worship" go hand-in-hand.

:eek: I understand his point, what are trying to twist it into?

[vir doctus]

Yikes! :eek:

You do not want to know what I think of that.

How sad for you.

[Ron Jon]

How do you know?

Why is that picture any different than the one put up by Ron?

Is it because of the icon?

I could show that picture to other protestants who will tell me that it a Catholic worshipping a Priest. (don't laught, I've actually met protestants who think that I "worship priests" and "pray to them".)Isn't that what I said about the statues (graven images)? To me, it looks like they were praying before a statue of Mary. I could be wrong, maybe it's not Mary. But it certainly looks (to me) like they were praying before it. (Just like the soldier was praying before the priest in your picture).

[buflineks]

Please don't ask.

So you do equate Catholic practices with death.

That's fine. You're not the first protestant who has implied that to me. But now I know where you stand.

It's all about appearance, isn't it?

[Ron Jon]

I'm thinking of doing that. My question wouldn't be "Were you worshiping the statue?"...but "What were you doing?".

How about you? Will you also take the survey?I agree. Asking them if they were "worshipping the statue" sounds a bit confrontational and that's not the purpose of the question.

[vir doctus]

So now Catholics have to do things according to "protestant" viewpoints?



I don't know what he is doing, don't spend too much time on it.

[tracifish]

No, don't change the question.

You stated that when people fall on their knees before an Icon, it appears that they are worshipping a "Graven Image".

Now, are you going to do it or not?

I do not want to ask a leading question...or cause anyone to answer in a way they think I would want to hear. Plus...."Were you worshiping a statue?" is no way to engage a conversation with a Roman Catholic. Wouldn't you agree?

[vir doctus]

Would it be better to ask outside of the sanctuary?

Why not go door to door and ask every parent who knelt next to his child's bed and prayed why he prayed to his child? :rolleyes:

This really is mind boggling the gnats that are being strained in the name of righteous indignation.

[buflineks]

Yikes! :eek:

You do not want to know what I think of that.

Yes I do, that's why I asked the question.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That would require maturity on their part. Are you now going to judge them and say they are not mature Christians? So much for your holier-than-thou "judge not" comment earlier.

You're making a leap I am not prepared to take.

[Ron Jon]

So now Catholics have to do things according to "protestant" viewpoints?

I believe that's what some of the wars during the reformation were about.

Do you really want to start that again? I don't.I'm no historian, so I'll defer to you in that area. As a Catholic, do you think you are more mature in the faith than a Protestant? Do you feel "closer" to God since you (I assume) believe you are a member of Christ's original Church?

I'm not very good with abstract thoughts. I'm more picture oriented.

If you have 2 Christians. One is more "mature" in the faith than the other. Shouldn't the more mature Christian be mindful of the weaker brother's obstacles so as to help him avoid stumbling over them in the future? Am I my brother's keeper?

[tracifish]

So you do equate Catholic practices with death.

That's fine. You're not the first protestant who has implied that to me. But now I know where you stand.

It's all about appearance, isn't it?

The bible says to avoid all appearance of sin. Do I appear to be sinning to you?

[buflineks]

I don't know what he is doing, don't spend too much time on it.

I can't now. I have to leave so I can serve some divorce papers, then it's off to Dr. Price's class tonight.
Won't be back on until late tommorow afternoon.

Everyone have a good night.

[Ron Jon]

:eek: I understand his point, what are trying to twist it into?Why do you assume I'm "twisting" anything?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I am responsible for all of my actions. I do not know under what circumstances these 2 photos were taken. It does no good to speculate.


Absouletly correct. :clap: Bravo!!! Thankyou for realizing that.



All I know is Koushi asked who would do such a thing (honor a graven image or pray to a statue) and I showed a couple of photographic examples. Maybe they weren't praying to the statue. Maybe they were just tired and were resting on their knees. Or maybe they were praying to God and were using the image of the statue as a focusing point. Who knows. Call it what you want, but the APPEARANCE is what I was referring to.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand then you go and do what it does no good to do. :(

[Ron Jon]

It's all about appearance, isn't it?Isn't that what I've been saying?

[vir doctus]

The bible says to avoid all appearance of sin. Do I appear to be sinning to you?

Show us a picture and we'll imagine what our Brothers and Sisters in Africa think of your godly lifestyle.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Have you never looked at a picture and thought to yourself, "what does this look like to me?"

Have you ever done so and come up with more than one thing?

[Ron Jon]

I don't know what he is doing, don't spend too much time on it.I'm asking questions, digging deeper. I'm not taking things at 'face value'. What are you doing?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I believe we will not be entirely cellulose-free until we shuffle off these mortal coils. It is hard. However, I do not want to lead a brother to sin...or cause a seeker to stumble....or be misled in any way.

So if I see another gospel being taught, that means alot of people are going to say and do things they believe are of the gospel. If it were me, I'd want someone to correct me....and when others are saying and doing things they believe are of the gospel, I often can't do or say anything in person....that's why I leave tracts around and post on the internet.


The appearance that I'm seeing right now is that it's ok to bear false witness against another Christian. Should I gently rebuke you for it?

[Ron Jon]

I do not want to ask a leading question...or cause anyone to answer in a way they think I would want to hear. Plus...."Were you worshiping a statue?" is no way to engage a conversation with a Roman Catholic. Wouldn't you agree?I agree. Leading questions are not the way to get honest answers. If you want an honest and sincere answer, it requires an honest and sincere question.

[tracifish]

Yes I do, that's why I asked the question.

Okay.

It appears the man is bowing before a "priest" who is standing above him as some kind of "father", rather than kneeling beside him as a brother. The "priest" is also wearing a sash with symbols that appear to be solar crosses.

It's not good.

Now people can face an object like jeep and pray that God will keep it running.....but why would anyone pray for a statue? What do statues do? They don't do anything.

[Ron Jon]

This really is mind boggling the gnats that are being strained in the name of righteous indignation.Is that what you see? Righteous indignation? :wall: Wow.

[vir doctus]

Why do you assume I'm "twisting" anything?

When I sit and pray on the beach I am not worshiping the ocean. When I kneel under a tree and pray I am not worshiping the tree. On one knee at the cemetery, I am not worshiping the dead or the image on the gravestone. When my husband has come home from dangerous deployments I have dropped to my knees at the sight of him and thanked the Lord for one more day with my beloved, I was neither praying to my husband nor worshiping him.

[tracifish]

The appearance that I'm seeing right now is that it's ok to bear false witness against another Christian. Should I gently rebuke you for it?

Absolutely.

How does it appear I'm saying it's okay to bear false witness?

[vir doctus]

Is that what you see? Righteous indignation? :wall: Wow.

Are you sinning?

[vir doctus]

Okay.

It appears the man is bowing before a "priest" who is standing above him as some kind of "father", rather than kneeling beside him as a brother. The "priest" is also wearing a sash with symbols that appear to be solar crosses.

It's not good.

Now people can face an object like jeep and pray that God will keep it running.....but why would anyone pray for a statue? What do statues do? They don't do anything.

:)) This is becoming sadly amusing.

[vir doctus]

What are you doing?

Trying to not have all "Protestants" cast as judgmental haters.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Trying to not have all "Protestants" cast as judgmental haters.

There is that appearance. Isn't there? And according to recent discussion appearances are of primary importance. Right?

[Ron Jon]

The bible says to avoid all appearance of sin. Do I appear to be sinning to you?1 Thess. 5:22 ought to be read in context.

[Ron Jon]

Have you ever done so and come up with more than one thing?I'm sure you have a point to make, so why don't you just come out and say it?

[Ron Jon]

When I sit and pray on the beach I am not worshiping the ocean. When I kneel under a tree and pray I am not worshiping the tree. On one knee at the cemetery, I am not worshiping the dead or the image on the gravestone. When my husband has come home from dangerous deployments I have dropped to my knees at the sight of him and thanked the Lord for one more day with my beloved, I was neither praying to my husband nor worshiping him.And what does any of this have to do with praying before a statue or a religious icon?

[Ron Jon]

Are you sinning?No. Not at the moment, but the days not over yet. ;)

[tracifish]

:)) This is becoming sadly amusing.

Whatever happened to the reformation? It didn't end with Luther. He played an important role in it, in that he "got the ball rolling"...but it seems that some Lutherans do not understand that Martin Luther still held to some Roman Catholic beliefs and traditions.

Had he been allowed to live a little longer, I'm sure he would have done away with the robes, sashes, and the practice of infant baptism.

[Ron Jon]

Trying to not have all "Protestants" cast as judgmental haters.Now who's being "judgmental"?

[vir doctus]

Had he been allowed to live a little longer, I'm sure he would have done away with the robes, sashes, and the practice of infant baptism.

Perhaps you should read more of his writings then... :rolleyes:

[vir doctus]

And what does any of this have to do with praying before a statue or a religious icon?

Read what you wrote.

[vir doctus]

Now who's being "judgmental"?

Who's not here.

[Ron Jon]

Read what you wrote.I have. What does "a priori" mean to you?

[Ron Jon]

Who's not here."Judge not, lest ye be judged."

[tracifish]

1 Thess. 5:22 ought to be read in context.

Like this?

1Th:5:14: Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
1Th:5:15: See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
1Th:5:16: Rejoice evermore.
1Th:5:17: Pray without ceasing.
1Th:5:18: In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th:5:19: Quench not the Spirit.
1Th:5:20: Despise not prophesyings.
1Th:5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I see what you're saying. Even though a born-again Christian is not perfect, God is continuing to sanctify us. If another sees appearance of sin in me, then I can learn from it to avoid doing it again.

Though, I'm still waiting for him to explain how I appear to be saying it's okay to bear false witness.

[tracifish]

Trying to not have all "Protestants" cast as judgmental haters.

Please show me a post here you would consider judgmental and hating.

[LeroyBrown]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?

Not to beat a dead horse or any thing but why do you believe that I do not believe in myself?

[Ron Jon]

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

We have not proven that Catholics "worship" idols (of any sort). We have not proven that they even "pray" to the Saints (or graven images). So, to distribute "tracts" which accuse Catholics of doing these things, is not the type of behavior Christ would have us exhibit. Hold fast that which is good.

[vir doctus]

Not to beat a dead horse or any thing but why do you believe that I do not believe in myself?

I believe in you Noble LeroyBrown, don't let anyone convince you you don't exist!

[tracifish]

Perhaps you should read more of his writings then... :rolleyes:

Okay. He might have changed his mind had he been allowed to live ALOT longer. :rolleyes:

[vir doctus]

I have. What does "a priori" mean to you?

Just what the Dictionary of Philosophy says it means.

[vir doctus]

Okay. He might have changed his mind had he been allowed to live ALOT longer. :rolleyes:

And what is the value of speculating what he might have believed had he lived longer? You are aware that he regretted what he did do, right?

[tracifish]

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

We have not proven that Catholics "worship" idols (of any sort). We have not proven that they even "pray" to the Saints (or graven images). So, to distribute "tracts" which accuse Catholics of doing these things, is not the type of behavior Christ would have us exhibit. Hold fast that which is good.

Okay. I will take another look at my tract.

[tracifish]

And what is the value of speculating what he might have believed had he lived longer? You are aware that he regretted what he did do, right?

Did he regret the reformation? Or did he regret something else? What do you mean he regretted what he did do?

Not all speculation is sin. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[vir doctus]

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

John 7

[vir doctus]

Did he regret the reformation? Or did he regret something else? What do you mean he regretted what he did do?

Not all speculation is sin. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

He regretted the Reformation because people used it as a license to sin.

[LeroyBrown]

Here tell me about this picture.

Is the soldier worshiping the priest?

Is he worshiping the Jeep?

www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg (http://www.frkapaun.org/Mass-Jeep.jpg)

The soldier is worshiping God.

The priest is leading mass.

The jeep is a make shift altar.

[Ron Jon]

And what is the value of speculating what he might have believed had he lived longer? You are aware that he regretted what he did do, right?What exactly did Luther regret? I have no doubt he had regrets over the way things were handled. But having regrets doesn't mean what he did was wrong.He regretted the Reformation because people used it as a license to sin.And that was not Luther's fault.

[Hadassah]

Whatever happened to the reformation? It didn't end with Luther. He played an important role in it, in that he "got the ball rolling"...but it seems that some Lutherans do not understand that Martin Luther still held to some Roman Catholic beliefs and traditions.

Had he been allowed to live a little longer, I'm sure he would have done away with the robes, sashes, and the practice of infant baptism.

Allowed to live? Was he murdered?

[vir doctus]

And that was not Luther's fault.

:shifty: So?

[tracifish]

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

We have not proven that Catholics "worship" idols (of any sort). We have not proven that they even "pray" to the Saints (or graven images). So, to distribute "tracts" which accuse Catholics of doing these things, is not the type of behavior Christ would have us exhibit. Hold fast that which is good.

Okay. I checked the tract. It does not say anything about Roman Catholics worshiping or praying to idols or saints. It does not even say anything about the appearance of doing so.

It only speaks of some of Roman Catholic doctrines, such as transubstantiation, Mary's perpetual virginity and her assumption into heaven. I don't know if the latter two are official doctrine yet, but have heard alot of Roman Catholics say these things.

[vir doctus]

Allowed to live? Was he murdered?

His years in the evil monastery wreacked havoc on his saintly body leading to his early demise... :))

[vir doctus]

Mary's perpetual virginity...

Another thing you think Luther would outgrow had he not been so viciously torn from this life? :eh:

[Ron Jon]

Just what the Dictionary of Philosophy says it means.Well, that's a start. I should have been more specific.

"a priori assumption (ah pree ory) n. from Latin, an assumption that is true without further proof or need to prove it. It is assumed the sun will come up tomorrow. However, it has a negative side: an a priori assumption made without question on the basis that no analysis or study is necessary, can be mental laziness when the reality is not so certain." http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/a+priori+assumption

If I start out with the assumption that idolatry is the prayer to or worship of a graven image and I see a picture of a person[s] kneeling or bowing down before a statue, it doesn't matter what term you use (adoration or veneration) it's still going to be idolatry in my mind.

The same holds true for the person who holds to the belief that "veneration" is not the same as "adoration" or "worship". For that person, seeing a picture of someone bowing down in front of a statue is nothing to be shocked or surprised about.

[tracifish]

Allowed to live? Was he murdered?

Never mind.

Martin Luther's Death

Martin Luther escaped martyrdom, and died of natural causes. His last written words were, "Know that no one can have indulged in the Holy Writers sufficiently, unless he has governed churches for a hundred years with the prophets, such as Elijah and Elisha, John the Baptist, Christ and the apostles... We are beggars: this is true."

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

[Ron Jon]

Allowed to live? Was he murdered?
"Martin Luther escaped martyrdom, and died of natural causes."
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

[vir doctus]

The same holds true for the person who holds to the belief that "veneration" is not the same as "adoration" or "worship". For that person, seeing a picture of someone bowing down in front of a statue is nothing to be shocked or surprised about.

Veneration is NOT the same as adoration or devotion.

http://onelook.com/

[tracifish]

Another thing you think Luther would outgrow had he not been so viciously torn from this life? :eh:

As you said, "What's the point in speculation?". I thought he was burned at the stake, but it appears he died from natural causes.

[Hadassah]

"Martin Luther escaped martyrdom, and died of natural causes."
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

I know. I was trying to figure out what traci meant.



But thank you. :hug:

[Ron Jon]

:shifty: So?I may need a Tonsure (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14779a.htm) after pulling my hair out from some of your responses. Thanks. :mad:

[Ron Jon]

Okay. I checked the tract. It does not say anything about Roman Catholics worshiping or praying to idols or saints. It does not even say anything about the appearance of doing so.

It only speaks of some of Roman Catholic doctrines, such as transubstantiation, Mary's perpetual virginity and her assumption into heaven. I don't know if the latter two are official doctrine yet, but have heard alot of Roman Catholics say these things.
Well, then I guess you don't have to worry about bearing false witness then. :)

[tracifish]

"Martin Luther escaped martyrdom, and died of natural causes."
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

LOL. It appears that great minds "link" alike.

[Ron Jon]

Veneration is NOT the same as adoration or devotion.

http://onelook.com/veneration (plural venerations)
The act of venerating or the state of being venerated.
Profound reverence, respect or awe.
Religious zeal, idolatry or devotion.

Anything (or anyone) can be "venerated" just as anything (or anyone) can be adored. At what point does it "cross the line" do you suppose?

[tracifish]

I know. I was trying to figure out what traci meant.



But thank you. :hug:

I corrected myself with the same link as Ron Jon. Sorry I thought Luther was martyred.

[Ron Jon]

LOL. It appears that great minds "link" alike.:lol:

[tracifish]

I may need a Tonsure (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14779a.htm) after pulling my hair out from some of your responses. Thanks. :mad:

I've been coughing up hair-balls. :)

[vir doctus]

At what point does it "cross the line" do you suppose?

That would be God's department.

[vir doctus]

As you said, "What's the point in speculation?". I thought he was burned at the stake, but it appears he died from natural causes.

Add to that, he was prone to daftness from disease.

[tracifish]

...about my hair-balls:

Are they from my cat or from the worship/veneration thing? :lol:

[tracifish]

Add to that, he was prone to daftness from disease.

That may explain some things I have heard about him. I suppose Christians are prone to daftness as anyone.

[3inOne]

Open this link http://www.discountcatholicstore.com/images/olfat7.jpg

and you'll see what seems a statue of praying children praying to a statue of Mary.

[terri910]

Look at the appearance? Do you not think it will cause others to stumble? God is not the author of confusion.
Actually, traci, it is not the "appearance" of the people in the photo, but the ignorance of the people looking at the photo.

Catholics do try to rid others of ignorance in order that they not stumble. It is unfortunate that some stubbornly cling to their comfortable ignorance.

The photo I saw no more indicated people worshiping a statue than a photo of a child kneeling next to his bed in prayer would indicate he was worshiping his Serta mattress.

[terri910]

That's why I would ask. :angel:
You might ask, but apparently you would invite others to assume. Isn't that what you are doing when you post a photo and ask others "What does it look like these people are doing?" or suggest to them "It sure likes these people are doing w-y-z!"

Something like that could be construed by some as being the cause for a Christian to stumble in his faith, Ron Jon. :naughty:

[terri910]

I do not want to ask a leading question...or cause anyone to answer in a way they think I would want to hear. Plus...."Were you worshiping a statue?" is no way to engage a conversation with a Roman Catholic. Wouldn't you agree?
So do not make that question your first sentence. Say hello, and that you are a protestant trying to learn more about Catholic practices. Then you can say you noticed them kneeling in front of a statue (you can point to it), THEN ask them, "were you worshiping that statue?"

I think that would be a perfectly acceptable way to engage in a conversation with a Roman Catholic unless you wanted to try and make the question less clear so you could get a less-than-clear answer.

[terri910]

The bible says to avoid all appearance of sin. Do I appear to be sinning to you?
Perhaps someone should reply "Don't ask."

[terri910]

I agree. Leading questions are not the way to get honest answers. If you want an honest and sincere answer, it requires an honest and sincere question.
"Were you worshiping that statue" is a very honest and sincere question, if you ask me. I think it would garner honest and sincere answers.



And laughter.

[tracifish]

Perhaps someone should reply "Don't ask."

I don't want to sin. That's why I asked.

[tracifish]

Actually, traci, it is not the "appearance" of the people in the photo, but the ignorance of the people looking at the photo.

Catholics do try to rid others of ignorance in order that they not stumble. It is unfortunate that some stubbornly cling to their comfortable ignorance.

The photo I saw no more indicated people worshiping a statue than a photo of a child kneeling next to his bed in prayer would indicate he was worshiping his Serta mattress.

I know of people in my congregation that believe some unbiblical things.

Someone in my church thought there is a passage in the bible where Jesus was sitting on the roof of his house thinking about what he would be leaving behind.

Another person in my church thought the unforgivable sin is planning what to say while being persecuted.

I know a Roman Catholic that confuses her faith with Native-American
spiritualism.

So, if I know both Catholics and Protestants that do not understand what is the gospel....I bet you know some Catholics that do not understand the gospel or even the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church, though they are active in your church.

And I already explained that one could face a jeep and pray that God will keep the jeep from breaking down. Likewise, a person could kneel and pray while resting their hands on something like a mattress, for the sake of comfort, but a statue is not a car. A statue may have something on which one could rest ones elbows, but for the sake of appearance, one may want to seek another elbow-rest, lest it cause another to sin.

You see what I'm saying?

[tracifish]

....of one thing I'm pretty sure: I'm pretty sure that no-one starts a prayer with "Dear statue".

[terri910]

I know of people in my congregation that believe some unbiblical things.

Someone in my church thought there is a passage in the bible where Jesus was sitting on the roof of his house thinking about what he would be leaving behind.

Another person in my church thought the unforgivable sin is planning what to say while being persecuted.

I know a Roman Catholic that confuses her faith with Native-American
spiritualism.

So, if I know both Catholics and Protestants that do not understand what is the gospel....I bet you know some Catholics that do not understand the gospel or even the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church, though they are active in your church.

And I already explained that one could face a jeep and pray that God will keep the jeep from breaking down. Likewise, a person could kneel and pray while resting their hands on something like a mattress, for the sake of comfort, but a statue is not a car. A statue may have something on which one could rest ones elbows, but for the sake of appearance, one may want to seek another elbow-rest, lest it cause another to sin.

You see what I'm saying?
I see that you see what think you see.

[tracifish]

I see that you see what think you see.

If you think that I see what I think I see, don't you think that others see what they think they see?

[terri910]

If you think that I see what I think I see, don't you think that others see what they think they see?
Not all. Some do, so I'm certain you are not alone. But it doesn't mean you -- or they -- are right.

Some of us learned a long time ago that things are not always as they appear.

[Koushi Shinigami]

perhaps someone should reply "don't ask."

:)) ;)

[Koushi Shinigami]

Absolutely.

How does it appear I'm saying it's okay to bear false witness?

Have you ever read or been told by anyone on this board that Catholics do not worship statues?

[Constantine the Great]

"Were you worshiping that statue" is a very honest and sincere question, if you ask me. I think it would garner honest and sincere answers.

Here's the dishonesty

Answer: No, I don't worship statues.
Dishonest rebuttal: Yes you do. I said so.

[terri910]

Here's the dishonesty

Answer: No, I don't worship statues.
Dishonest rebuttal: Yes you do. I said so.
That definitely could happen.

But, if one asks "Were you worshiping that statue" they are likely to get an honest answer that both the person asking and the person answering will understand in the same way.

Ask, "What were you doing just now" is vague enough to get all sort of answers, some of which may use terminology that does not mean the same to the person answering as it does to the person asking, or that can be misunderstood.

Example. If I was kneeling in prayer, and someone asked me what I was doing, I might say, "I was worshiping." But, would the person asking the question know who/what I was worshiping, or would they assume something?

An example of terminology not meaning the same, might be me saying I pray to St. Anthony. "Pray" in that context does not mean worship, but "petition" and Catholics would understand that I was asking St. Anthony to pray for and with me about a specific problem, but many non-Catholics could have a very different understanding of my words.

[tracifish]

Here's the dishonesty

Answer: No, I don't worship statues.
Dishonest rebuttal: Yes you do. I said so.

I wouldn't do that. Plus, I know they are not worshiping a statue...or they would literally pray, "Oh, most holy statue.....". It's not the statue...it may be what the statue represents....or what the icon represents.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

[terri910]

I wouldn't do that. Plus, I know they are not worshiping a statue...or they would literally pray, "Oh, most holy statue.....". It's not the statue...it may be what the statue represents....or what the icon represents.
Or it could even NOT be worship of who the statue is a representation of....

[tracifish]

Or it could even NOT be worship of who the statue is a representation of....

Okay...but may I ask: What is it?

[Constantine the Great]

I wouldn't do that. Plus, I know they are not worshiping a statue...or they would literally pray, "Oh, most holy statue.....". It's not the statue...it may be what the statue represents....or what the icon represents.


So if an icon represents Christ, and am worshipping what the icon represents....


I wasn't referring to you specifically though but it happens alot on these boards.

"You worship saints"
"No, I venerate and respect them"
"To me that's the same as worship, unless I say it's not the same as worship in which case it's not worshipping, but when it comes to Catholics and saints, I say it's worshipping."

That goes on here FAR too often, people playing fast and loose with definitions and intentions (of others).

[Constantine the Great]

Okay...but may I ask: What is it?

From the icon perspective;

There's this;

http://www.goarch.org/resources/clipart/christ/christ.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

Which I would worship what it represents.


Then there's this;

http://www.goarch.org/resources/clipart/saints/basil2/image_preview

Whom I respect what the icon represents, and the two should not be confused.

[terri910]

Okay...but may I ask: What is it?
One would have to ask the particular person doing whatever they're doing at the time.

I'll give myself as an example: I have seen many different statues of Mary. How she is depicted may bring different things to my mind; a statue of Mary with baby Jesus in her arms may make me think about something different than The Pieta, and a representation of someone's vision of Mary might make me think about something else again.

So....if you see me in front of The Pieta, at one time you could ask and I might say I was contemplating how Mary must have felt. At another time you could ask and I might say I was asking Mary to pray for one of my sons that might be having a problem, because I know that, as a mother, she understands how I feel. At another time you could ask and I might say I was meditating on the Passion of Christ, and thanking God for His mercy.

So....you may need to fit everything you see into a neat little box that you can identify on sight, but that need has no bearing on others -- only on your perception.

[Snow]

People are free to call themselves whatever they want, doesn't make it so. Just like you are free to say they worship Mary, even if they don't.

1. They are in fact Catholic. They are baptized and take communion. You not liking it or having your own opinions about what you want Catholicism to be changes nothing.

2. Yes - I am free to say it and the point is that though you imply that I don't know what they do, I am in fact an eyewitness who lived among them, visited their churches, spoke with their priests, and had long and involved conversations with them over the course of years.... and you, Vir, didn't and know nothing about it.

[Snow]

Isn't it interesting that "someone's opinion" isn't of the reason for "worship" but for the "importance of Mary" to the region's history and for "devotion" to Mary?

In fact the web page author did give what was in his opinion, the reason.

[smyrna]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?
Psalm 16:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=16&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
As for the saints who are in the earth,They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight.
Romans 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=7&version=49&context=verse)
to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 14:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=33&version=49&context=verse)
for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Are we believers not Saints?

[Hadassah]

1. They are in fact Catholic. They are baptized and take communion. You not liking it or having your own opinions about what you want Catholicism to be changes nothing.

2. Yes - I am free to say it and the point is that though you imply that I don't know what they do, I am in fact an eyewitness who lived among them, visited their churches, spoke with their priests, and had long and involved conversations with them over the course of years.... and you, Vir, didn't and know nothing about it.

What she wants Catholicism to be? Not quite sure I get your meaning....

[LeroyBrown]

Open this link http://www.discountcatholicstore.com/images/olfat7.jpg

and you'll see what seems a statue of praying children praying to a statue of Mary.

It's praying shepherd children recieving the vision of Mary or Our Lady of Fátima.

[vir doctus]

What she wants Catholicism to be? Not quite sure I get your meaning....

:cool:

[hben]

Why is it that you do not believe in saints?

I do believe in saints and always have. I believe I am a saint along with every other believer in Christ. :)
I am not sure I believe in protestants though. I consider myself to be a believer and a saint...but not a protestant. I have never protested any other religion or denomination in my life.

[terri910]

In fact the web page author did give what was in his opinion, the reason.
Yes, the reason, but not the reason for worship. When I read the page I saw reasons for historical significance and devotion. I never saw the word "worship" used.

Of course, I could have missed it, I suppose.

[terri910]

Psalm 16:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=16&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
As for the saints who are in the earth,They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight.
Romans 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=7&version=49&context=verse)
to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 14:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=33&version=49&context=verse)
for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Are we believers not Saints?
All believers are saints. The Catholic Church believes and teaches this.

Byzantine is still learning.

[hben]

Yes but do not you think that some people are holier than others.

I have never met a holy person, but I have met several who thought they were. I wouldn't call such a person a holy person but rather a holier than thou person. I have placed my trust in Christ and His holiness.

[hben]

I'm a Believer, what are you?

I am a grey haired old man...at least according to your definition. :snooty:

[vir doctus]

I am a grey haired old man...at least according to your definition. :snooty:

You would prefer 'hoary'? :eh:

[hben]

That's a good question.

I would think that Protestant would have to be Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other denominations that came out of the Reformation....of course I've been in some Methodist churches that could fall under the Evangelical category as well.

Evangelical would include Baptist, the many Pentecostal denominations; Assemblies of God, Church of God, Foursquare, International Pentecostal Holiness, etc...

I think I would agree with all that.

[hben]

As no human being, except Christ, was ever holy, I can't accept the notion that any human being can label another human being "holy."

I've been the proud owner of a few pair of socks and even underwear which were holy...er I mean wholy. I almost forgot the "W", and I don't want to forget the "W" though many Democrats would like for us to. :doh:

[hben]

"All" would include Jesus as well.

You never cease to amaze me with the statements you make sometimes.

[hben]

I think I am pretty smart for my age!:rolleyes:

I think I am pretty old for my age. :cool:

[Snow]

Yes, the reason, but not the reason for worship. When I read the page I saw reasons for historical significance and devotion. I never saw the word "worship" used.

Of course, I could have missed it, I suppose.

It's a short page - only takes 35 seconds to read it.

"Why do you think there is so much devotion for the Virgin Mary in Cuenca?

Probably because of the communities of the Religious Cloisters, who still worship the Virgin and preserve their customs intact."

The reason, according to the author, is the influence of the Religious Cloisters. Perhaps what you ought to be asking is why do the Religious Cloisters worship the the Virgin.