OSAS/ETERNAL SECURITY: The Truth

[ellis]

My personal opinion has for some time been that Once Saved, Always Saved/Eternal Security is true, alive and well.
Many naysayers state that the reason I and others like and believe in OSAS is so that we can be joined with or birthed into some particular group and then continue on sinning with no ill effects.
Nothing could be further from the truth and possibly the naysayers should be more concerned with their own salvation than someone else’s.

The following link provides a long discussion concerning some verses which many say refutes the idea of OSAS/Eternal Security: http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

Generally speaking, I agree with what is written in the above link and in any case do not believe Heb. 6:8 refutes what is written in Rev. 3:5 and 13:8.
Also, many say that John 10:28-29 does not, without doubt, provide absolute OSAS/Eternal Security since they say the believer himself could possibly snatch himself from God and salvation, but note the verses say “no one”.
John 10: 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
There are many that say the word “overcomes” specifically means to not commit any further sin after accepting/receiving salvation. And we should know this to be an impossibility.
1 John 1:8-10 “8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”

REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
This verse indicates that some people’s names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.
There are some versions that change the wording of Rev. 13:8 to read as follows:
“And all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.”

REV. 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

Link provides some very good info: http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

[Koushi Shinigami]

Ellis.

Hello and welcome to the forum. Make sure you read the TOS at the top of the page and know 'Da Rulez'. :)

Also, count me among 'the naysayers'. Although not for the reason you state.

[vir doctus]

OSAS is bad doctrine.

[Koushi Shinigami]

OSAS is bad doctrine.

Hello Reason. :hug:

[hben]

My personal opinion has for some time been that Once Saved, Always Saved/Eternal Security is true, alive and well.
Many naysayers state that the reason I and others like and believe in OSAS is so that we can be joined with or birthed into some particular group and then continue on sinning with no ill effects.
Nothing could be further from the truth and possibly the naysayers should be more concerned with their own salvation than someone else’s.

The following link provides a long discussion concerning some verses which many say refutes the idea of OSAS/Eternal Security: http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

Generally speaking, I agree with what is written in the above link and in any case do not believe Heb. 6:8 refutes what is written in Rev. 3:5 and 13:8.
Also, many say that John 10:28-29 does not, without doubt, provide absolute OSAS/Eternal Security since they say the believer himself could possibly snatch himself from God and salvation, but note the verses say “no one”.
John 10: 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
There are many that say the word “overcomes” specifically means to not commit any further sin after accepting/receiving salvation. And we should know this to be an impossibility.
1 John 1:8-10 “8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”

REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
This verse indicates that some people’s names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.
There are some versions that change the wording of Rev. 13:8 to read as follows:
“And all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.”

REV. 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

Link provides some very good info: http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

Ellis, welcome to the forum. It is always wonderful to see another like minded Christian who believes and teaches "bad doctrine" like myself. I hope you know that I am only teasing when I say that. I believe you have very good doctrine, and I agree with you whole heartedly. Keep up the good work.

[hben]

Hello Reason. :hug:

I agree that Vir is a wise lady and very reasonable on most issues. This just isn't one of them. :))

[hben]

OSAS is bad doctrine.

OSAS:

Outstanding
Sound
And
Scriptural

:whistle:

[jmacvols]

My personal opinion has for some time been that Once Saved, Always Saved/Eternal Security is true, alive and well.
Many naysayers state that the reason I and others like and believe in OSAS is so that we can be joined with or birthed into some particular group and then continue on sinning with no ill effects.
Nothing could be further from the truth and possibly the naysayers should be more concerned with their own salvation than someone else’s.

The following link provides a long discussion concerning some verses which many say refutes the idea of OSAS/Eternal Security: http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

Generally speaking, I agree with what is written in the above link and in any case do not believe Heb. 6:8 refutes what is written in Rev. 3:5 and 13:8.
Also, many say that John 10:28-29 does not, without doubt, provide absolute OSAS/Eternal Security since they say the believer himself could possibly snatch himself from God and salvation, but note the verses say “no one”.
John 10: 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
There are many that say the word “overcomes” specifically means to not commit any further sin after accepting/receiving salvation. And we should know this to be an impossibility.
1 John 1:8-10 “8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”

REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
This verse indicates that some people’s names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.
There are some versions that change the wording of Rev. 13:8 to read as follows:
“And all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.”

REV. 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

Link provides some very good info: http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

Heb 6:4-8 does prove that salvation can be lost. And since the bible does not contradict itself, all verses would therefore teach that salvation is conditional and can be lost.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take heed lest ye fall.

[vir doctus]

I agree that Vir is a wise lady and very reasonable on most issues. This just isn't one of them. :))

:naughty: I actually believe a person can be convinced of their eternal security through reading the clear Word of God, I just think it is foolish and dangerous for me to try and convince others of their eternal security.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:naughty: I actually believe a person can be convinced of their eternal security through reading the clear Word of God, I just think it is foolish and dangerous for me to try and convince others of their eternal security.

Thoughtful. :think:

[hben]

:naughty: I actually believe a person can be convinced of their eternal security through reading the clear Word of God, I just think it is foolish and dangerous for me to try and convince others of their eternal security.

I understand and respect your conviction, but I still have to give you a hard time whenever I get the chance no matter what the topic is. :whistle:

[MobyMule]

:naughty: I actually believe a person can be convinced of their eternal security through reading the clear Word of God, I just think it is foolish and dangerous for me to try and convince others of their eternal security.

I would agree with that.

[Ron Jon]

OSAS is bad doctrine.The only thing "bad" about it is what people think they know about it, as opposed to what it actually teaches.

[Ron Jon]

:naughty: I actually believe a person can be convinced of their eternal security through reading the clear Word of God, I just think it is foolish and dangerous for me to try and convince others of their eternal security.Well, I guess it's a good thing that's NOT what OSAS doctrine teaches.

[terri910]

The only thing "bad" about it is what people think they know about it, as opposed to what it actually teaches.
That's only supposed to happen to Catholics! :))

[hben]

That's only supposed to happen to Catholics! :))

It also happens to Dr. Pepper. Their commercials used to say that Dr. Pepper was the most misunderstood soft drink.

[terri910]

It also happens to Dr. Pepper. Their commercials used to say that Dr. Pepper was the most misunderstood soft drink.
I don't agree with Dr. Pepper, but at least I try to understand it! :mrgreen:

[Mimiheart]

Dr. Pepper was my superintendent in jr. high and part of high school. We got a kick out of that.

I'll let you Christians debate the whole Oasis thing now.

[terri910]

Dr. Pepper was my superintendent in jr. high and part of high school. We got a kick out of that.
*LOL*

I'll let you Christians debate the whole Oasis thing now.
Oh, well, Oasis is something else, again!

[hben]

I don't agree with Dr. Pepper, but at least I try to understand it! :mrgreen:

I don't agree with Diet Dr. Pepper, but I do agree with Regular Dr. Pepper. I have always liked it, but I never much tried to understand it. When I was young, I liked it for the sugar, but now that I'm in my mid fifties, I like it for the prune juice in it. :))

[trettep]

God is going to save us all and once we are saved we will ALWAYS be SAVED. Of course salvation comes at the appearing of our Lord and Savior at the end of Faith.

Paul

[ellis]

Ellis, welcome to the forum. It is always wonderful to see another like minded Christian who believes and teaches "bad doctrine" like myself. I hope you know that I am only teasing when I say that. I believe you have very good doctrine, and I agree with you whole heartedly. Keep up the good work.
Thank you very much hben; I suspected to get more negative responses than positive which I think speaks for the compelling truth of the story. And most likely any true benefit will be to some of the ones that read and do not reply. Thanks again for your encouragement.

[hben]

Thank you very much hben; I suspected to get more negative responses than positive which I think speaks for the compelling truth of the story. And most likely any true benefit will be to some of the ones that read and do not reply. Thanks again for your encouragement.

You are quite welcome. I hope you have many more good posts in the days, weeks, months and years to come. :)

[smyrna]

Does anyone think that once saved, always saved is important? If it is and it is the truth...it would be spelled out plainly. If it takes this much interpretation...it is something that you want to believe. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...that's what Paul said. Doesn't sound like once saved, always saved...but we will all find out one day and I for one hope you are right but I don't think so. If there is anyone who relied on this interpretation and made bad choices...

[Koushi Shinigami]

I don't agree with Diet Dr. Pepper, but I do agree with Regular Dr. Pepper. I have always liked it, but I never much tried to understand it. When I was young, I liked it for the sugar, but now that I'm in my mid fifties, I like it for the prune juice in it. :))

http://www.snopes.com/business/secret/drpepper.asp

Claim: Dr Pepper contains prune juice.

Status: False.

[ellis]

Does anyone think that once saved, always saved is important? If it is and it is the truth...it would be spelled out plainly. If it takes this much interpretation...it is something that you want to believe. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...that's what Paul said. Doesn't sound like once saved, always saved...but we will all find out one day and I for one hope you are right but I don't think so. If there is anyone who relied on this interpretation and made bad choices...
YES, it is important, if you want to go to heaven because there is simply no other way. You and I both will very likely sin/fall short of the glory of God the last day of our lives and God will not accept either of us there with unforgiven sin. Jesus paid the price once and for all for sinners that truly accept his salvation. Read the post, when you or anyone else accepts Jesus Christ your name is in the Lambs Book of life and will not be blotted out. Thanks for your reply.

[baysidetrey]

YES, it is important, if you want to go to heaven because there is simply no other way. You and I both will very likely sin/fall short of the glory of God the last day of our lives and God will not accept either of us there with unforgiven sin. Jesus paid the price once and for all for sinners that truly accept his salvation. Read the post, when you or anyone else accepts Jesus Christ your name is in the Lambs Book of life and will not be blotted out. Thanks for your reply.

Hi Ellis and welcome to the boards. First, this is a subject that has been gone through over and over on the boards here so I think it is not probable that those who believe OSAS will ever change their minds and vice versa. I could qoute scripture over and over that refutes the OSAS theology but it has been done before so not much use in doing it again. Now, if OSAS is true, then why would you try to convince other christians who do not believe in it? If it is true, all who accept Christ are saved eternally and can do nothing to lose their salvation which would include not believing OSAS. Now, I have been thinking of this for a while and have come to believe that OSAS is a doctrine like the selling of indulgences of old (IMO). The only difference is no money changes hands but the idea is still the same. OSAS (IMO) tells people that they are forgiven of ALL sins past, present and future. I have a true story that I think sums up why I don't believe in OSAS.

In the 1500's John Tetzel (a Dominican inquisitor) was selling indulgences. A man came by and purchased one. He asked Tetzel if the indulgence covered past, present and future sins he may perform. Tetzel assured him that the indulgence did indeed cover all the sins mentioned. After Tetzel stayed in the area and sold all the indulgences he could, he left to go home. A little way outside of town, he meet the man who had asked him the question of future sins. The man proceeded to beat and rob Tetzel of his proceeds. As he beat Tetzel and took his money, he reminded Tetzel and showed him his indulgence and said, Remember, I am absolved from all sins that I have and will commit.

This (IMO) is no different than the OSAS theology.

[Jacob_Rising]

YES, it is important, if you want to go to heaven because there is simply no other way. You and I both will very likely sin/fall short of the glory of God the last day of our lives and God will not accept either of us there with unforgiven sin. Jesus paid the price once and for all for sinners that truly accept his salvation. Read the post, when you or anyone else accepts Jesus Christ your name is in the Lambs Book of life and will not be blotted out. Thanks for your reply.
Welcome to the Forum Ellis.

I think what your overlooking is the different rewards in heaven, there are very, very many scriptures that discuss the different rewards.

The overcomers are the minority where Jesus says, '' very few will enter into''

We see the end result in Revelation when Jerusalem comes down from heaven and only certain people are allowed within the city, but there will still be dogs, liars and such outside the city.

Corinthians says, '' Everyman's work will be tested by fire, If your work is burned, then you will be saved but you will also suffer loss, and you are saved but only as one goes through a fire.

That means you die and wait, being killed by the fire that tests everyman.

We are told that the temple is a picture of Heaven and represents levels in heaven just as it did when it was built on Earth.

There is an outer court of Darkness that is a part of the temple of Heaven but it's not within the temple.

Inside the temple, or Jerusalem, there will be no light because God will be their light.

But outside the temple is the outer darkness where you are still saved but not on the same level as inside the temple.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Welcome to the Forum Ellis.

I think what your overlooking is the different rewards in heaven, there are very, very many scriptures that discuss the different rewards.

The overcomers are the minority where Jesus says, '' very few will enter into''

We see the end result in Revelation when Jerusalem comes down from heaven and only certain people are allowed within the city, but there will still be dogs, liars and such outside the city.

Corinthians says, '' Everyman's work will be tested by fire, If your work is burned, then you will be saved but you will also suffer loss, and you are saved but only as one goes through a fire.

That means you die and wait, being killed by the fire that tests everyman.

We are told that the temple is a picture of Heaven and represents levels in heaven just as it did when it was built on Earth.

There is an outer court of Darkness that is a part of the temple of Heaven but it's not within the temple.

Inside the temple, or Jerusalem, there will be no light because God will be their light.

But outside the temple is the outer darkness where you are still saved but not on the same level as inside the temple.

So what?

[terri910]

Does anyone think that once saved, always saved is important? If it is and it is the truth...it would be spelled out plainly. If it takes this much interpretation...it is something that you want to believe. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...that's what Paul said. Doesn't sound like once saved, always saved...but we will all find out one day and I for one hope you are right but I don't think so. If there is anyone who relied on this interpretation and made bad choices...
I do not embrace the OSAS doctrine, but I think it would be a mistake to think that if something is the truth that it "would be spelled out plainly"....I assume you are speaking of something being spelled out plainly in the scriptures, right?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I do not embrace the OSAS doctrine, but I think it would be a mistake to think that if something is the truth that it "would be spelled out plainly"....I assume you are speaking of something being spelled out plainly in the scriptures, right?

How about if it were truth, that at least there would be no verses contradicting it?

[terri910]

How about if it were truth, that at least there would be no verses contradicting it?
That would work -- if everyone could agree on what different scriptures are actually saying....*L*

[gpd®]

OSAS is bad doctrine.

I like to adhere to the OSAAS.

Once Saved, Almost Always Saved.

I feel that we don't really loose our salvation because if we are not in denial, we know EXACTLY where we left it when we choose to turn away from God.

[ellis]

Heb 6:4-8 does prove that salvation can be lost. And since the bible does not contradict itself, all verses would therefore teach that salvation is conditional and can be lost.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take heed lest ye fall.
It is well known by many that Heb. 6:4-8 are about the most confusing verses in the Bible.
I do not see any "wiggle" room in Rev. 3:5 & 13:8; it could not be any clearer. What you're saying is the Bible DOES contradict itself.

[smyrna]

I do not embrace the OSAS doctrine, but I think it would be a mistake to think that if something is the truth that it "would be spelled out plainly"....I assume you are speaking of something being spelled out plainly in the scriptures, right?

Once save always saved would be a "super truth". Something that is so paramount to everything that there should be no mistake. I find that scripture that support these, "super truths" is more plainly written and easier to comprehend.

[jmacvols]

It is well known by many that Heb. 6:4-8 are about the most confusing verses in the Bible.
I do not see any "wiggle" room in Rev. 3:5 & 13:8; it could not be any clearer. What you're saying is the Bible DOES contradict itself.

Hbr 6:4- For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hbr 6:5- And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hbr 6:6 -If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This passage is confusing/difficult for those that promote OSAS. THe Hebrew writer makes reference to one that has been:
-enlightened
-tasted of the heavenly gift
-partaker f the Holy Ghost
-tasted the good word of God & power of the world to come

The Hebrew writer here is obviously talking about one in a saved position and this perosn in a saved condition can fall. A person already lost cannot fall, he is already fallen. One has to be in a saved position for him to fall from that position.


Rev 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I do not see OSAS in Rev 3:5 at all. One has to overcome to be saved, what if one falls per Heb 6:6 and does not overcome, will they still be saved? No.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I do not see OSAS being taught in Rev 13:8 either.

[Reeder]

hbr 6:4- for [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy ghost,

hbr 6:5- and have tasted the good word of god, and the powers of the world to come,

hbr 6:6 -if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of god afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This passage is confusing/difficult for those that promote osas. The hebrew writer makes reference to one that has been:
-enlightened
-tasted of the heavenly gift
-partaker f the holy ghost
-tasted the good word of god & power of the world to come

the hebrew writer here is obviously talking about one in a saved position and this perosn in a saved condition can fall. A person already lost cannot fall, he is already fallen. One has to be in a saved position for him to fall from that position.

+1

[ellis]

Hbr 6:4- For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hbr 6:5- And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hbr 6:6 -If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This passage is confusing/difficult for those that promote OSAS. THe Hebrew writer makes reference to one that has been:
-enlightened
-tasted of the heavenly gift
-partaker f the Holy Ghost
-tasted the good word of God & power of the world to come

The Hebrew writer here is obviously talking about one in a saved position and this perosn in a saved condition can fall. A person already lost cannot fall, he is already fallen. One has to be in a saved position for him to fall from that position.


Rev 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I do not see OSAS in Rev 3:5 at all. One has to overcome to be saved, what if one falls per Heb 6:6 and does not overcome, will they still be saved? No.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I do not see OSAS being taught in Rev 13:8 either.
Let's try it like this; is your name now in the Lambs Book, yes or no.
If yes, when was it put in?
If no, when, if ever, will it be put in?

[jmacvols]

Let's try it like this; is your name now in the Lambs Book, yes or no.
If yes, when was it put in?
If no, when, if ever, will it be put in?

I believe my name was written in the Lamb's Book when I obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. My name will remain in that book as long as I remain a faithful Christian.

Rev 3:1 -And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:2 -Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Rev 3:3 -Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:4 -Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Rev 3:5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.



This section of Rev 3 is written to the church at Sardis. Most at Sardis were "dead" v1 and a few had "not defiled their garments", v4.

The ones that were "dead" were told to repent and overcome, or their names would be blotted out. While those that had not defiled their garments, as long as they remain faithful ("overcometh" is in the present tense), so as long as they maintained/continued their 'overcoming', then their name would not be blotted out.

In the Ephesian epistle, Paul tells us the church at Ephesus had been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit. Yet some years later in Rev 2:4,5 the church at Ephesus had "left their first love", had "fallen" and were commanded to repent or have their church (candlestick) removed.

So verses here in Revelation do not contradict the plain teaching of Heb 6:4ff.

[ellis]

Jmacvols>>>>""""I believe my name was written in the Lamb's Book when I obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. My name will remain in that book as long as I remain a faithful Christian."""""
WHY do folks put conditions on verses; is it to try to justify their particular notions. Jesus did not put any conditions in Rev. 3:5.

[baysidetrey]

Jmacvols>>>>""""I believe my name was written in the Lamb's Book when I obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. My name will remain in that book as long as I remain a faithful Christian."""""
WHY do folks put conditions on verses; is it to try to justify their particular notions. Jesus did not put any conditions in Rev. 3:5.

O.K. so, Christ's blood has redemed ALL your sins past, present and future? You do not need to worry about "falling away"?

[Gem]

I do not believe in once saved always saved .

If that was the case, why did God create a hell for.?

[Ron Jon]

I do not believe in once saved always saved .

If that was the case, why did God create a hell for.?

For the devil and his angels. Matt. 25:41

[terri910]

I do not believe in once saved always saved .

If that was the case, why did God create a hell for.?
For the never saved? http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/cool.gif

[Expo Man]

jmacvols,
Can you explain to me what it means to "overcome"?

[ellis]

I believe my name was written in the Lamb's Book when I obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. My name will remain in that book as long as I remain a faithful Christian.

Rev 3:1 -And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:2 -Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Rev 3:3 -Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:4 -Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Rev 3:5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.



This section of Rev 3 is written to the church at Sardis. Most at Sardis were "dead" v1 and a few had "not defiled their garments", v4.

The ones that were "dead" were told to repent and overcome, or their names would be blotted out. While those that had not defiled their garments, as long as they remain faithful ("overcometh" is in the present tense), so as long as they maintained/continued their 'overcoming', then their name would not be blotted out.

In the Ephesian epistle, Paul tells us the church at Ephesus had been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit. Yet some years later in Rev 2:4,5 the church at Ephesus had "left their first love", had "fallen" and were commanded to repent or have their church (candlestick) removed.

So verses here in Revelation do not contradict the plain teaching of Heb 6:4ff.
I answered thia post earlier, but it seems to have disappeared or did not stick anyway.......
Why do folks add conditions to a very clear, concise verse such as Rev. 3:5; Jesus did not see fit to put conditions, so why should we. Likewise there are no conditions in verse Rev. 13:8.

[baysidetrey]

I answered thia post earlier, but it seems to have disappeared or did not stick anyway.......
Why do folks add conditions to a very clear, concise verse such as Rev. 3:5; Jesus did not see fit to put conditions, so why should we. Likewise there are no conditions in verse Rev. 13:8.

Maybe because we read verses like this:

Ezekiel 33:7.So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.8.When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die ; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.9.Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10.Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak , saying , If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live ?11.Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live : turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die , O house of Israel?12.Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.13.When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live ; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered ; but for his iniquity that he hath committed , he shall die for it.14.Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die ; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;15.If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live , he shall not die.16.None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.17.Yet the children of thy people say , The way of the Lord is not equal : but as for them, their way is not equal.18.When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19.But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.20.Yet ye say , The way of the Lord is not equal . O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

But, as you have not responed to my 2 previous posts, I am not sure you will respond to this one. BTW, if you wish to say that this is Old Testament, I am ready to defend that also.

[baysidetrey]

I answered thia post earlier, but it seems to have disappeared or did not stick anyway.......
Why do folks add conditions to a very clear, concise verse such as Rev. 3:5; Jesus did not see fit to put conditions, so why should we. Likewise there are no conditions in verse Rev. 13:8.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not shall be damned .

I can post more but I think you can see there are more verses that explain the conditions. BTW, do you belive in faith ONLY?

[ellis]

I'm sorry bayside, but my time is limited and I only type with one finger. I do not really care to respond to anything that does not clearly refute Rev. 3:5 and 8:13. Thanks for your interest and yes I think the O.T. and the N.T depend on each other.

[baysidetrey]

I'm sorry bayside, but my time is limited and I only type with one finger. I do not really care to respond to anything that does not clearly refute Rev. 3:5 and 8:13. Thanks for your interest and yes I think the O.T. and the N.T depend on each other.

Nothing refutes Rev. 3:5 and 8:13 so I guess you won't respond to any post. However, if you would like to discuss the meaning of these scriptures as the pertain to all the others, I am more than willing to do that. I also believe that the O.T and N.T depend on each other. The question is, "Does God change"? (BTW, I can justify stealing as scriptural if I want to use an interpretaion that I want and not take any of the others into account.) Also, one finger typing will be fine and I will wait for your thoughts, I am not the best at computers either. If this is just between you and Jmac, I will leave it alone as I feel he is more than capable at showing the error in the OSAS doctrine.

[baysidetrey]

jmacvols,
Can you explain to me what it means to "overcome"?

I can.

o⋅ver⋅come   /ˌoʊvərˈkʌm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [oh-ver-kuhm] Show IPA verb, -came, -come, -com⋅ing.
–verb (used with object) 1. to get the better of in a struggle or conflict; conquer; defeat: to overcome the enemy.
2. to prevail over (opposition, a debility, temptations, etc.); surmount: to overcome one's weaknesses.
3. to overpower or overwhelm in body or mind, as does liquor, a drug, exertion, or emotion: I was overcome with grief.
4. Archaic. to overspread or overrun.

–verb (used without object) 5. to gain the victory; win; conquer: a plan to overcome by any means possible.


As in:

Luke 11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him , and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted , and divideth his spoils.23.He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth .
24.When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith , I will return unto my house whence I came out.25.And when he cometh , he findeth it swept and garnished.26.Then goeth he , and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in , and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

[ellis]

Most of all, let's be friends. You know I still can't view the answers I made to jmacvol. I'm really better at things other than typing and PCs.
Does the small village of Bayside, Texas have anything to do with your handle.
Check out this link:
http://www.thehemi.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1891&sid=d82f43f40ed1faa9505a56f7029e31da

[baysidetrey]

Most of all, let's be friends. You know I still can't view the answers I made to jmacvol. I'm really better at things other than typing and PCs.
Does the small village of Bayside, Texas have anything to do with your handle.
Check out this link:
http://www.thehemi.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1891&sid=d82f43f40ed1faa9505a56f7029e31da

First of all, I would view you as none other than a friend or else I would not care to respond. Secondly, it may, then agian, it may have to do with Bayside NY, Bayside CA, Bayside ME, Bayside MI, Bayside AL, Bayside NH, Bayside NJ etc. Or, it may not have anything to do with a villiage at all.
( I just checked out your link. Does this have anything to do with LB?)

[ellis]

At the risk of sounding like a dummy; what does LD stand for?

[DispensationalJim]

How about if it were truth, that at least there would be no verses contradicting it?

IMO, there are simple explanations for each of the so-called contradictions.

My one and only apostle, Paul, tells us this:
• 2Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

As I keep saying, studying the Bible dispensationally makes a big difference. I am a strong supporter of the OSAS or eternal security viewpoint, but I also do see verses that seem to support the idea that one can lose their salvation. How can I reconcile that? By rightly dividing!

Dispensationally, most of the Old Testament is what we might call "UNDER THE LAW." There are many "IFs" found there given to the nation of Israel involving their promised Kingdom in which God says: "If you do this" or "If you don't do this," then God says "I will do this" in response to your actions or rebellion against God. In short, in my view, God is saying, "IF you mess up, you will lose my approval and blessing" just like those today who say a believer can lose their salvation

As I see it, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John can be considered a continuation of the Old Testament, since Jesus Christ Himself shows that they are still UNDER THE LAW. The book of Acts begins under the same "law" only now with a resurrected Jesus. The apostles continue to preach what Jesus told them to, the gospel of the Kingdom.

But then, Paul comes along (Acts 9 and following) and says in his 13 epistles (Romans through Philemon) that those who trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior are no longer under the law, BUT UNDER GRACE. So Paul is preaching the gospel of the GRACE of God

Then, following Paul's final epistle, Philemon, we see the book of HEBREWS which is IMO clearly written to the remnant of Israel. The remainder of epistles (James through The Revelation) are IMO written to that same remnant of Israel warning them of the coming Great Tribulation and also reminding them of the coming Kingdom for Israel. Thus, again IMO, Hebrews through The Revelation are once again technically UNDER THE LAW and are therefore teaching the possibility of losing salvation.

I want to show how one Pauline verse is repeatedly taken out of context to support losing salvation. That verse was mis-used by smyrna earlier in this thread:
• Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

As you can see, quoting that verse by itself seems to say that one must do works to be saved. But please look at the VERY NEXT VERSE:
• Phil. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So for those trusting in Christ, it is God working IN YOU that accomplishes His will. I believe Paul makes it crystal clear for the believer in this present AGE OF GRACE:
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
• Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
• 2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That is my story, and I'm sticking to it. :)

[baysidetrey]

IMO, there are simple explanations for each of the so-called contradictions.

My one and only apostle, Paul, tells us this:
• 2Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

As I keep saying, studying the Bible dispensationally makes a big difference. I am a strong supporter of the OSAS or eternal security viewpoint, but I also do see verses that seem to support the idea that one can lose their salvation. How can I reconcile that? By rightly dividing!

Dispensationally, most of the Old Testament is what we might call "UNDER THE LAW." There are many "IFs" found there given to the nation of Israel involving their promised Kingdom in which God says: "If you do this" or "If you don't do this," then God says "I will do this" in response to your actions or rebellion against God. In short, in my view, God is saying, "IF you mess up, you will lose my approval and blessing" just like those today who say a believer can lose their salvation

As I see it, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John can be considered a continuation of the Old Testament, since Jesus Christ Himself shows that they are still UNDER THE LAW. The book of Acts begins under the same "law" only now with a resurrected Jesus. The apostles continue to preach what Jesus told them to, the gospel of the Kingdom.

But then, Paul comes along (Acts 9 and following) and says in his 13 epistles (Romans through Philemon) that those who trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior are no longer under the law, BUT UNDER GRACE. So Paul is preaching the gospel of the GRACE of God

Then, following Paul's final epistle, Philemon, we see the book of HEBREWS which is IMO clearly written to the remnant of Israel. The remainder of epistles (James through The Revelation) are IMO written to that same remnant of Israel warning them of the coming Great Tribulation and also reminding them of the coming Kingdom for Israel. Thus, again IMO, Hebrews through The Revelation are once again technically UNDER THE LAW and are therefore teaching the possibility of losing salvation.

I want to show how one Pauline verse is repeatedly taken out of context to support losing salvation. That verse was mis-used by smyrna earlier in this thread:
• Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

As you can see, quoting that verse by itself seems to say that one must do works to be saved. But please look at the VERY NEXT VERSE:
• Phil. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So for those trusting in Christ, it is God working IN YOU that accomplishes His will. I believe Paul makes it crystal clear for the believer in this present AGE OF GRACE:
• Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
• Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
• 2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That is my story, and I'm sticking to it. :)

Hey Jim, how are you? I find a flaw in your "Paul preached a different gospel to the gentiles" theory for many reasons but here is one.

Acts 13:43.Now when the congregation was broken up , many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.44.And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.45.But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.46.Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold , and said , It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you , and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo , we turn to the Gentiles.47.For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.48.And when the Gentiles heard this , they were glad , and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.49.And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Now, we see that Paul did indeed preach to the Jews. Is it your belief that he changed his gospel?

Paul did indeed teach baptism to the gentiles. What about the Roman jailer?

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said , Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31.And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.
32.And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.33.And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ; and was baptized , he and all his, straightway.

Or do you contend that Acts was still a continuation of the OT?

[hben]

For the never saved? http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/cool.gif

Good answer, Terri. I hereby award you with this "Honorary Baptist Degree" on this 28th day of February in the 2009th year of our Lord.

:cool:

[DispensationalJim]

Hey Jim, how are you? I find a flaw in your "Paul preached a different gospel to the gentiles" theory for many reasons but here is one.

Acts 13:43.Now when the congregation was broken up , many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.44.And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.45.But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.46.Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold , and said , It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you , and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo , we turn to the Gentiles.47.For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.48.And when the Gentiles heard this , they were glad , and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.49.And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Now, we see that Paul did indeed preach to the Jews. Is it your belief that he changed his gospel?

Paul did indeed teach baptism to the gentiles. What about the Roman jailer?

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said , Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31.And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.
32.And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.33.And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ; and was baptized , he and all his, straightway.

Or do you contend that Acts was still a continuation of the OT?

I'm doing well, thanks.

I would be quick to acknowledge that Paul, a converted Jew, did preach to the Jews throughout the remainder of the book of Acts. He speaks of his desire to reach the Jews often in his epistles. But, I do believe Paul understood that water baptism was a part of the Jewish "religion" from the OT (Ex. 40:12;Lev. 16:24;Num. 5:17;8:7;19:20, etc.) and that it had also been included in the faith preached by the twelve TO THE JEWS. However, once GRACE becomes Paul's main focus, IMO, he "dismissed" water baptism in favor of "spirit baptism."
• 1Cor. 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; ... 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

• 1Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Paul tells us in his epistles (Rom. 3:22, 10:12, etc.), that IN THE AGE OF GRACE there is "no difference" between the Jew and the Gentile. In fact, IMO, the Jews have become Gentiles (since they rejected their Messiah/Christ) until the Rapture concludes the dispensation of the Age of Grace. Then, IMO, the Tribulation and the Kingdom are especially for the nation of Israel.

But thanks, trey, for giving me the opportunity to explain my view about that. :)

[baysidetrey]

I'm doing well, thanks.

I would be quick to acknowledge that Paul, a converted Jew, did preach to the Jews throughout the remainder of the book of Acts. He speaks of his desire to reach the Jews often in his epistles. But, I do believe Paul understood that water baptism was a part of the Jewish "religion" from the OT (Ex. 40:12;Lev. 16:24;Num. 5:17;8:7;19:20, etc.) and that it had also been included in the faith preached by the twelve TO THE JEWS. However, once GRACE becomes Paul's main focus, IMO, he "dismissed" water baptism in favor of "spirit baptism."
• 1Cor. 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; ... 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

• 1Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Paul tells us in his epistles (Rom. 3:22, 10:12, etc.), that IN THE AGE OF GRACE there is "no difference" between the Jew and the Gentile. In fact, IMO, the Jews have become Gentiles (since they rejected their Messiah/Christ) until the Rapture concludes the dispensation of the Age of Grace. Then, IMO, the Tribulation and the Kingdom are especially for the nation of Israel.

But thanks, trey, for giving me the opportunity to explain my view about that. :)

So it is your opinion that Paul changed his gospel? As you will agree, Paul did indeed baptize gentiles at one time. Why do you believe that he would have changed his gospel?

[DispensationalJim]

So it is your opinion that Paul changed his gospel? As you will agree, Paul did indeed baptize gentiles at one time. Why do you believe that he would have changed his gospel?

Can you please show me precisely where Paul baptized anyone, especially a Gentile and where he precisely PREACHED water baptism in his epistles?

I will say that I believe Paul received his revelation from Jesus Christ Himself over a period of time (some might call it "progressive revelation").
• Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
• Gal. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles...
• Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

=======================

In Gal. 1, Paul mentions that he was gone for about three years before going to meet with the apostles in Jerusalem. That would seem to be plenty of time for Paul to learn the "new" revealtion of THE gospel which Paul calls "my gospel."
• Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
• Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
• 2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

=======================

And we do know what Paul's gospel was, don't we?
• 1Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

=======================

Can you show me where or when the twelve ever preached Paul's gospel (that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS)? I know they preached that Jesus had resurrected, but not that He died for their sins. They certainly could not preach that while He was alive, could they? In fact, they did not even believe He was going to die, let alone die for their sins and rise again.
• Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
•Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. ... 31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Out of time for now...

[jmacvols]

Jmacvols>>>>""""I believe my name was written in the Lamb's Book when I obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. My name will remain in that book as long as I remain a faithful Christian."""""
WHY do folks put conditions on verses; is it to try to justify their particular notions. Jesus did not put any conditions in Rev. 3:5.

Rev 3:1-5 was written to the church at Sardis where many there had become spiritually dead. Jesus tells them to "repent", v3. Repent is in the imperative mood, so repenting was not an option, it was a command they must obey, so repenting is a mandatory condition Jesus placed upon them. The other condition Jesus had was "overcoming". Only the ones that overcome are to be dressed in white raiment. "Overcometh" is in the Greek present tense which means the action of overcoming is something that must be on-going & continuous. Therefore overcoming is NOT something a person does at one point in time, it has to be on-going. So only those at Sardis that meet the condition of "overcoming" are the ones that will not have their names blotted out. Obviously those that do not overcome will have their names blotted out.

[baysidetrey]

Can you please show me precisely where Paul baptized anyone, especially a Gentile and where he precisely PREACHED water baptism in his epistles?

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said , Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31.And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.
32.And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.33.And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ; and was baptized , he and all his, straightway.

I believe a Roman centurion would qualify as a gentile. Would you?

[Expo Man]

I can.

o⋅ver⋅come   /ˌoʊvərˈkʌm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [oh-ver-kuhm] Show IPA verb, -came, -come, -com⋅ing.
–verb (used with object) 1. to get the better of in a struggle or conflict; conquer; defeat: to overcome the enemy.
2. to prevail over (opposition, a debility, temptations, etc.); surmount: to overcome one's weaknesses.
3. to overpower or overwhelm in body or mind, as does liquor, a drug, exertion, or emotion: I was overcome with grief.
4. Archaic. to overspread or overrun.

–verb (used without object) 5. to gain the victory; win; conquer: a plan to overcome by any means possible.


As in:

Luke 11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him , and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted , and divideth his spoils.23.He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth .
24.When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith , I will return unto my house whence I came out.25.And when he cometh , he findeth it swept and garnished.26.Then goeth he , and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in , and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

I believe what it means to overcome is best summed up in 1John 5:4,5.
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

[baysidetrey]

I believe what it means to overcome is best summed up in 1John 5:4,5.
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe , and tremble .

The devils believe, do they overcome the world? Next you might say "But they have no faith" in which I will reply

James 2:20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Now let's look at a passage about overcomming.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome , of the same is he brought in bondage . 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Paul says,

2 Timothy 4:7.I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8.Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I believe that we must endure until the end.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake : but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .

And now one of my favorite verses:

Ezekiel 18:20.The soul that sinneth , it shall die . The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21.But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed , and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live , he shall not die.22.All his transgressions that he hath committed , they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23.Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24.But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth , shall he live ? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned : in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned , in them shall he die.25.Yet ye say , The way of the Lord is not equal . Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal ? are not your ways unequal
26.When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27.Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed , and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive .
28.Because he considereth , and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed , he shall surely live , he shall not die.29.Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal . O house of Israel, are not my ways equal ? are not your ways unequal?30.Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent , and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

As I have asked before, when did God change?

[Expo Man]

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe , and tremble .

The devils believe, do they overcome the world? Next you might say "But they have no faith" in which I will reply

James 2:20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Now let's look at a passage about overcomming.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome , of the same is he brought in bondage . 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Paul says,

2 Timothy 4:7.I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8.Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I believe that we must endure until the end.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake : but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .

And now one of my favorite verses:

Ezekiel 18:20.The soul that sinneth , it shall die . The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21.But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed , and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live , he shall not die.22.All his transgressions that he hath committed , they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23.Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24.But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth , shall he live ? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned : in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned , in them shall he die.25.Yet ye say , The way of the Lord is not equal . Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal ? are not your ways unequal
26.When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27.Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed , and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive .
28.Because he considereth , and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed , he shall surely live , he shall not die.29.Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal . O house of Israel, are not my ways equal ? are not your ways unequal?30.Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent , and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

As I have asked before, when did God change?

God never changes.
I believe that works follow faith. They are proof that you have been saved but they have nothing to do with your salvation. Your problem is you have confused the proof of salvation with salvation itself, which is wholly confined to faith and faith alone.
Romans 4:3-5 "For what saith the scripture? ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS COUNTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
How can anyone who believes their salvation is dependent on their works have any peace or assurance?
Romans 5:1,2 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

[DispensationalJim]

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said , Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31.And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.
32.And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.33.And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ; and was baptized , he and all his, straightway.

I believe a Roman centurion would qualify as a gentile. Would you?

IMO, the jailer of Acts 16 might be open to debate, but even so, are you sure that Paul baptized him? Though Paul did baptize a few as he mentions in 1Cor. 1, I believe that he stopped that completely after Acts 19.

The story of the centurion was in Acts 10 (unless you know of another one involving Paul) and that story dealt with Peter, not Paul. Peter defintely was sent to the Jews, but IMO that unique occasion was a special exception for Peter because of the visions he and Cornelius each received in Acts 10. Maybe we can dwell on that situation later.

[DispensationalJim]

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe , and tremble .

The devils believe, do they overcome the world? Next you might say "But they have no faith" in which I will reply

James 2:20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Now let's look at a passage about overcomming.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome , of the same is he brought in bondage . 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Paul says,

2 Timothy 4:7.I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8.Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I believe that we must endure until the end.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake : but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .

And now one of my favorite verses:

Ezekiel 18:20.The soul that sinneth , it shall die . The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21.But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed , and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live , he shall not die.22.All his transgressions that he hath committed , they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23.Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24.But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth , shall he live ? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned : in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned , in them shall he die.25.Yet ye say , The way of the Lord is not equal . Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal ? are not your ways unequal
26.When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27.Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed , and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive .
28.Because he considereth , and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed , he shall surely live , he shall not die.29.Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal . O house of Israel, are not my ways equal ? are not your ways unequal?30.Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent , and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

As I have asked before, when did God change?

God's love never changes, but I believe His PROGRAMS (how He deals with different people at different times in HIStory) have changed many times. That is why we refer to different time periods as DISPENSATIONS. I already explained a lot of that earlier. :)

[baysidetrey]

God never changes.
I believe that works follow faith. They are proof that you have been saved but they have nothing to do with your salvation. Your problem is you have confused the proof of salvation with salvation itself, which is wholly confined to faith and faith alone.
Romans 4:3-5 "For what saith the scripture? ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS COUNTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
How can anyone who believes their salvation is dependent on their works have any peace or assurance?
Romans 5:1,2 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

First, if God does not change (as I believe he does not) then He expected more from the Jews than he does from a christian under your view. A Jew who turned from righteous was condemed as I believe a christian will. Next, I am glad to see that you know what my "problems" are. I tell you what, when "works" are mentioned in the NT, look to see if the meaning is "works of the Old Law" or any work. This may help to see the context of what a writter is trying to communicate. Also, please refer to the passage in the NT that says "FAITH ALONE". I have not been able to find that one. Before I go to much further in debate, do you understand and believe the meanings of the words "if" and "and"? This is not to be offensive, only to see if you truly wish to debate and reason, in which I will be glad to, or if you are just want to explain your postion in which you will never give up, which I will understand.

[baysidetrey]

IMO, the jailer of Acts 16 might be open to debate, but even so, are you sure that Paul baptized him? Though Paul did baptize a few as he mentions in 1Cor. 1, I believe that he stopped that completely after Acts 19.

The story of the centurion was in Acts 10 (unless you know of another one involving Paul) and that story dealt with Peter, not Paul. Peter defintely was sent to the Jews, but IMO that unique occasion was a special exception for Peter because of the visions he and Cornelius each received in Acts 10. Maybe we can dwell on that situation later.

Well, looking at the passage in Acts 19:33, it appears the "he" refers to the person spoken of before who would be Paul. And you are correct to say that Paul indeed baptized other gentiles in Cor. Now, is it your belief that Paul changed his gospel?

[baysidetrey]

God's love never changes, but I believe His PROGRAMS (how He deals with different people at different times in HIStory) have changed many times. That is why we refer to different time periods as DISPENSATIONS. I already explained a lot of that earlier. :)

I know most of your positions and I agree that there are different dispensations. However, I believe that we can fall away just as the Jews could.

[DispensationalJim]

Well, looking at the passage in Acts 19:33, it appears the "he" refers to the person spoken of before who would be Paul. And you are correct to say that Paul indeed baptized other gentiles in Cor. Now, is it your belief that Paul changed his gospel?

I think you meant Acts 16:33. The "he" IMO has to be the jailer who "... was baptized, he and all his, straightway." Unless you think Paul was rebaptized there and had his family with him.

I guess I have not been clear enough about whether or not I think Paul changed his gospel. I do not believe Paul EVER taught that water baptism was a part of THE gospel. If you know of a place where he taught that baptism was part of the gospel (as I believe Peter did -- Acts 2:38, etc.), let me know. Again, I acknowledge that Paul baptized a few IN THE BEGINNING OF HIS MINISTRY, but most (if not all) of them were Jews.

To be absolutely clear, I believe that Paul's gospel was ALWAYS that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS, so -- IMO -- "NO," Paul never changed his gospel message. He did, however -- IMO -- change his attitude towards water baptism, as I said before.

I hope that clears up my view for you. :)

[DispensationalJim]

I know most of your positions and I agree that there are different dispensations. However, I believe that we can fall away just as the Jews could.

Then, trey, i would ask you to show me clear verses which indicate that in your opinion Paul taught that one could lose their salvation. And, BTW, I do not accept that Paul wrote Hebrews. But that is more appropriately a debate for the "Is the Bible Reliable?" thread. :)

[baysidetrey]

I think you meant Acts 16:33. The "he" IMO has to be the jailer who "... was baptized, he and all his, straightway." Unless you think Paul was rebaptized there and had his family with him.

I guess I have not been clear enough about whether or not I think Paul changed his gospel. I do not believe Paul EVER taught that water baptism was a part of THE gospel. If you know of a place where he taught that baptism was part of the gospel (as I believe Peter did -- Acts 2:38, etc.), let me know. Again, I acknowledge that Paul baptized a few IN THE BEGINNING OF HIS MINISTRY, but most (if not all) of them were Jews.

To be absolutely clear, I believe that Paul's gospel was ALWAYS that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS, so -- IMO -- "NO," Paul never changed his gospel message. He did, however -- IMO -- change his attitude towards water baptism, as I said before.

I hope that clears up my view for you. :)

I stand corrected on both counts. 1. It was Acts 16:33 2. The "he" was the jailor, not Paul. Thank you for correcting me. However, they were baptized after they heard Paul preach the gospel.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said , Unto John's baptism.4.Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is , on Christ Jesus.5.When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6.And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

Why would they be baptized after Paul preached to them unless Paul preached water baptism?

[baysidetrey]

Then, trey, i would ask you to show me clear verses which indicate that in your opinion Paul taught that one could lose their salvation. And, BTW, I do not accept that Paul wrote Hebrews. But that is more appropriately a debate for the "Is the Bible Reliable?" thread. :)

First, I believe that Paul did indeed write Hebrews but even if he did not, it does not matter. Paul did say:

Galatians 1:6.I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7.Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8.But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9.As we said before , so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed.

So from this we gather that if another apostle or whoever preached something different from Paul, they were to be accursed. That being said, the writer of Hebrews, James, Peter and others were therefore accursed as they did not teach grace only (nor did Paul but let us assume he did). Or, their message was the same as Pauls only some have misunderstood Paul by not reconciling his words with the other scripture.
I will give you this Jim, if I were to believe in OSAS, your reasonings have by far made more sense. You at least discount all the other scripture as being written to the Jews only and Pauls letters (excluding Hebrews) as being written to the Gentiles. It really seems that your view is the only way to make sense of OSAS doctrine (even though you know I disagree with your conclusions).

[Expo Man]

First, if God does not change (as I believe he does not) then He expected more from the Jews than he does from a christian under your view. A Jew who turned from righteous was condemed as I believe a christian will. Next, I am glad to see that you know what my "problems" are. I tell you what, when "works" are mentioned in the NT, look to see if the meaning is "works of the Old Law" or any work. This may help to see the context of what a writter is trying to communicate. Also, please refer to the passage in the NT that says "FAITH ALONE". I have not been able to find that one. Before I go to much further in debate, do you understand and believe the meanings of the words "if" and "and"? This is not to be offensive, only to see if you truly wish to debate and reason, in which I will be glad to, or if you are just want to explain your postion in which you will never give up, which I will understand.

Galatians 2:16, 3:14, 3:26, 5:1
Ephesians 2:8,9,10

I take no offense to your questions and I meant no offense when I typed "your problem is" which I should not have done.
If our salvation is dependent on anything we do or don't do then it can no longer be called grace. Grace is undeserved favor. If we live our lives trusting in our works for our salvation we are in effect saying that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was just not enough.
I am trusting in Jesus Christ for my salvation plus nothing else. Jesus paid it all, said it is finished and sat down at the right hand of God.
I am a sinner saved by the grace of Almighty God. I do not deserve it, I did not earn it, I cannot earn it. I did not say that the term faith alone was a direct quote from scripture, I simply meant that that concept is communicated in scripture by the verses I listed above and others as well.

[Expo Man]

First, I believe that Paul did indeed write Hebrews but even if he did not, it does not matter. Paul did say:

Galatians 1:6.I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7.Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8.But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9.As we said before , so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed.

So from this we gather that if another apostle or whoever preached something different from Paul, they were to be accursed. That being said, the writer of Hebrews, James, Peter and others were therefore accursed as they did not teach grace only (nor did Paul but let us assume he did). Or, their message was the same as Pauls only some have misunderstood Paul by not reconciling his words with the other scripture.
I will give you this Jim, if I were to believe in OSAS, your reasonings have by far made more sense. You at least discount all the other scripture as being written to the Jews only and Pauls letters (excluding Hebrews) as being written to the Gentiles. It really seems that your view is the only way to make sense of OSAS doctrine (even though you know I disagree with your conclusions).

The gospel or good news is simply the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as outlined in 1Corinthians 15:1-4. I do not believe any of the writers of the NT preached anything different from this.

[baysidetrey]

Galatians 2:16, 3:14, 3:26, 5:1
Ephesians 2:8,9,10

I take no offense to your questions and I meant no offense when I typed "your problem is" which I should not have done.
If our salvation is dependent on anything we do or don't do then it can no longer be called grace. Grace is undeserved favor. If we live our lives trusting in our works for our salvation we are in effect saying that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was just not enough.
I am trusting in Jesus Christ for my salvation plus nothing else. Jesus paid it all, said it is finished and sat down at the right hand of God.
I am a sinner saved by the grace of Almighty God. I do not deserve it, I did not earn it, I cannot earn it. I did not say that the term faith alone was a direct quote from scripture, I simply meant that that concept is communicated in scripture by the verses I listed above and others as well.

I take no offense in your saying that "your problem is", I was just trying to show you that you had a preconcieved notion of my views being in err while yours are correct. It helps me when I think of things as a math problem and start from scratch with no preconcieved outcome, only the facts.
Next, does belief or repentence depend on our salvation? If so, we must do "something" correct? As for grace, I am with you 100% in the fact the we do not earn or deserve it. It is a gift. Now, how do we obtain the gift? I believe it is through obedience. If not, please let me know how we obtain the grace. Finally, you are correct to say that "faith alone" is no where in the scriptures but is an idea that some believe in. As I have stated before, if you and I can agree on the meanings of "if" and "and", we can continue in reasoning. If not, there is really no use.

[baysidetrey]

The gospel or good news is simply the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as outlined in 1Corinthians 15:1-4. I do not believe any of the writers of the NT preached anything different from this.

Are you sure that is all to be preached in the gospel?

[terri910]

Are you sure that is all to be preached in the gospel?
It is hard to know if Expo Man, when he said he didn't think any of the Apostles "preached anything different from this," meant that they didn't preach anything else than this.

[Expo Man]

Are you sure that is all to be preached in the gospel?

I did not say that the gospel was the only thing we need to present when witnessing or preaching. I simply stated what 1Corinthians 15 says when describing the good news. The resurrection was the greatest news ever and anyone who hears this news and believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and came to earth to pay their sin debt and took their place on the cross has passed from death unto life. John 3:16, 1John 4:2,15 & 5:12
Ephesians 1:13-14 says that after you believed you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Which is God's down payment. I do not believe that God will ever renege on His promise.
In Matthew 7:21-23 it states that there will be people who have done many wonderful works in Jesus name but He will say to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
He did not say "I knew you once but you did not do enough work or repent enough so depart from me." This is why I believe you are either saved and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or you are not. I believe that when I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal savior I immediately received eternal life. If that can be lost then how can it be called eternal?

[DispensationalJim]

First, I believe that Paul did indeed write Hebrews but even if he did not, it does not matter. Paul did say:

Galatians 1:6.I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7.Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8.But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9.As we said before , so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed.

So from this we gather that if another apostle or whoever preached something different from Paul, they were to be accursed. That being said, the writer of Hebrews, James, Peter and others were therefore accursed as they did not teach grace only (nor did Paul but let us assume he did). Or, their message was the same as Pauls only some have misunderstood Paul by not reconciling his words with the other scripture.
I will give you this Jim, if I were to believe in OSAS, your reasonings have by far made more sense. You at least discount all the other scripture as being written to the Jews only and Pauls letters (excluding Hebrews) as being written to the Gentiles. It really seems that your view is the only way to make sense of OSAS doctrine (even though you know I disagree with your conclusions).

Thank you, trey, for the kind remarks.

I think it is incredible that some of us can discuss our differences without demeaning each other. :)

My main reason for saying that Paul did not write Hebrews is that he started all 13 of his epistles with the same word, "Paul." Secondly, since he tells us he was sent to the Gentiles, and since Hebrews is clearly written to Jews (IMO, the Jewish "remnant"), then Paul would be in violation of his agreement with Peter, James, and John as seen in this passage:
• Gal. 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

==========================

OK, trey, now I would like to explain my view on your quote from Gal. 1.

Let me highlight a few words to make it more obvious.
• Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7.Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9 As we said before , so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed.

So, now we need to see to whom and about whom Paul was speaking.

• Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

IMO, then, Paul was speaking to his brethren in Christ who were Gentiles. Accoring to the agreement made in Gal. 2 (above), Paul will not condemn the twelve apostles who preach the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews, but I believe Paul WOULD object if those twelve apostles preached the gospel of the kingdom to the Gentiles, especially those Gentile brethren of Galatia.

I hope I was clear enough and hopefully you can see what I am saying. If not, feel free to ask some more of your perceptive questions. :)

[baysidetrey]

Thank you, trey, for the kind remarks.

I think it is incredible that some of us can discuss our differences without demeaning each other. :)

My main reason for saying that Paul did not write Hebrews is that he started all 13 of his epistles with the same word, "Paul." Secondly, since he tells us he was sent to the Gentiles, and since Hebrews is clearly written to Jews (IMO, the Jewish "remnant"), then Paul would be in violation of his agreement with Peter, James, and John as seen in this passage:
• Gal. 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

==========================

OK, trey, now I would like to explain my view on your quote from Gal. 1.

Let me highlight a few words to make it more obvious.
• Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7.Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9 As we said before , so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed.

So, now we need to see to whom and about whom Paul was speaking.

• Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

IMO, then, Paul was speaking to his brethren in Christ who were Gentiles. Accoring to the agreement made in Gal. 2 (above), Paul will not condemn the twelve apostles who preach the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews, but I believe Paul WOULD object if those twelve apostles preached the gospel of the kingdom to the Gentiles, especially those Gentile brethren of Galatia.

I hope I was clear enough and hopefully you can see what I am saying. If not, feel free to ask some more of your perceptive questions. :)

My reasons for believing Paul wrote Hebrews are these: First, as the writer introduced himself, all of this could pertain to Paul. Next, the early christians attributed Hebrews to Paul. Another is the fact that the Jews hated Paul and if they knew he was the writter, they would probably not listen to it.
Now, one issue where I find problems in your theology is this. What if a person is 1/2 Jew and 1/2 gentile? Who should he listen to, Paul or Peter? I do not believe that there are 2 gospels I merely think that we should take all NT scripture and use them to interpret each writters thoughts. Example: James spoke much about works. Did he not believe in faith or grace? I believe he had the same thoughts as Paul on the subjects he was merely expressing what the readers were lacking in. Same as Paul. IMO, he preached grace because his listeners were so intent on works that he did not have to mention it much. Also, I believe where Paul used "works" he was refering to OT Law. I think we can both agree that Paul was under law just not under OT law. Do you believe that we are under any law?

[ellis]

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not shall be damned .

I can post more but I think you can see there are more verses that explain the conditions. BTW, do you belive in faith ONLY?
Thanks to you bst and all who replied to this thread. Please excuse my ignorance in how to operate this forum and my getting lost from one place to another.
To answer your last question:
My belief is faith and works must go hand in hand, but works alone is wothless. "IF" a person truly has faith there should be some works to determine ones reward.
I think many folks get confused about when/where the scripture speaks about salvation or rewards.
Also, I believe there will be people in heaven from all walks of life and perhaps some in spite of their proclaimed religion.
Whether a person believes in OSAS/Eternal security or not; that alone is not the key to salvation.
Also, I have learned a few things from the replies AND Dr. Pepper is my favorite drink.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Thanks to you bst and all who replied to this thread. Please excuse my ignorance in how to operate this forum and my getting lost from one place to another.
To answer your last question:
My belief is faith and works must go hand in hand, but works alone is wothless. "IF" a person truly has faith there should be some works to determine ones reward.

Arguing about faith vs works is akin to arguing if a car requres a set of tires (rubber donuts mounted on metal wheels) or a set of wheels (metal disks that tires are mounted on) to roll down the road.

[Ron Jon]

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said , Sirs, what must I do to be saved?31.And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.
32.And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.33.And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ; and was baptized , he and all his, straightway.

I believe a Roman centurion would qualify as a gentile. Would you?The verses you quoted do NOT show that Paul preached "water baptism". It only shows that he preached "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Once they believed, they were "saved" and as new believers (saved) they followed the Christian example and were baptized.

[Ron Jon]

Hbr 6:4- For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hbr 6:5- And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hbr 6:6 -If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This passage is confusing/difficult for those that promote OSAS. THe Hebrew writer makes reference to one that has been:
-enlightened
-tasted of the heavenly gift
-partaker f the Holy Ghost
-tasted the good word of God & power of the world to come

The Hebrew writer here is obviously talking about one in a saved position and this perosn in a saved condition can fall. A person already lost cannot fall, he is already fallen. One has to be in a saved position for him to fall from that position.No, it is not "obvious" that the author of Hebrews is "talking about one in a saved position" or that this person could lose his salvation. You are reading into the verse what simply is NOT there.

Let's take a look at the some of the words you emphasized above:

-enlightened = φωτίζω phōtizō - in this context means "to instruct, to inform, teach". In other words, these people have been taught, instructed and informed about Jesus Christ. They couldn't plead ignorance.
-tasted of the heavenly gift - γεύομαι geuomai - to taste, to try the flavour of something. In this case that "something" is the heavenly gift. However, does "tasting" something mean that you have fully given yourself over to it? Jesus, Himself, said: "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” An unsaved person can "taste" and experience the "heavenly gift" but that doesn't mean they have received it.
-partaker of the Holy Ghost - sharing in the ministry and experiencing the signs and miracles by the Holy Ghost does not mean the Holy Ghost was performing these miracles through these unsaved persons. A "church" congregation is going to contain both the saved and the lost. Jesus said: "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’"
-tasted the good word of God - Once again, these people have only "tasted". They have not fully received and accepted it.

Is anything impossible for God? "For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened . . . if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance,"

What does it mean to fall away?
παραπίπτω parapiptō
1) to slip aside
a) to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander
b) to follow error

Do you (anti-OSAS) believe it's impossible for someone to "lose their salvation" and then repent and be saved again? Because, according to Heb. 6:4-6 it's impossible.

[jmacvols]

No, it is not "obvious" that the author of Hebrews is "talking about one in a saved position" or that this person could lose his salvation. You are reading into the verse what simply is NOT there.

Let's take a look at the some of the words you emphasized above:

-enlightened = φωτίζω phōtizō - in this context means "to instruct, to inform, teach". In other words, these people have been taught, instructed and informed about Jesus Christ. They couldn't plead ignorance.
-tasted of the heavenly gift - γεύομαι geuomai - to taste, to try the flavour of something. In this case that "something" is the heavenly gift. However, does "tasting" something mean that you have fully given yourself over to it? Jesus, Himself, said: "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” An unsaved person can "taste" and experience the "heavenly gift" but that doesn't mean they have received it.
-partaker of the Holy Ghost - sharing in the ministry and experiencing the signs and miracles by the Holy Ghost does not mean the Holy Ghost was performing these miracles through these unsaved persons. A "church" congregation is going to contain both the saved and the lost. Jesus said: "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’"
-tasted the good word of God - Once again, these people have only "tasted". They have not fully received and accepted it.


-enlightened-Jesus spoke of those in the light and those that remain in darkness, one is either in the light or darkness, there is nothing inbetween. John said if we walk in the light as He is in the light...then His blood cleanseth us from all sin.


-tasted of the heavenly gift - we are told Jesus "tasted" death, Heb 2:9. Did Jesus fully die or just come close to dying?

-partakers of the HG - no different than "partakers of the heavenly calling" in Heb 3:1. Partakers of the Holy Ghost refer to them that belong to God, Acts 5:32; Gal 4:6

-tasted of the good word- same as tasted of the heavenly gift.

Is anything impossible for God? "For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened . . . if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance,"

It is impossible for God to lie, but this passage is not talking about what is impossible with God but what is impossible for those that fall.

What does it mean to fall away?
παραπίπτω parapiptō
1) to slip aside
a) to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander
b) to follow error

The Hebrew writer said "if they should fall" which means if they deviate from the right path, turn aside, follow error. How can one that is already lost deviate from the right path, turn aside or follow error when they are already off the right path and following error? Therefore one must be in a saved position in order to fall from it.

Do you (anti-OSAS) believe it's impossible for someone to "lose their salvation" and then repent and be saved again? Because, according to Heb. 6:4-6 it's impossible.

The prodigal son and Simon both were able to repent, so repentance was not impossible for them. In Heb 6:4ff, those to whom repentance is impossible are those who "crucify the Son of God afresh" and "put Him to an open shame". Both "crucify" and "put" are both in the Greek present tense meaning these actions are on-going and continuous. So as long as one remains in a continuous state of crucifying and putting to shame Christ, it will be impossible for them to repent for they are crucifying and putting to shame the reason to repent. But if one quits crucifying and putting to shame Christ and nothing in the context says this is impossible, then one would then be able to repent, as Simon, Acts 8. This passage in Heb 6 would not make a lot of sense if it were impossible to lose salvation.

[jmacvols]

The verses you quoted do NOT show that Paul preached "water baptism". It only shows that he preached "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Once they believed, they were "saved" and as new believers (saved) they followed the Christian example and were baptized.


Not only did the jailer believe, he was also repentant (washed their stripes) and was baptized. Verse 34 ASV says "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The participle phrase "having believed" includes everything the jailer had just did and we see he did not just "believe only" but was repentant and baptized so the jailers belief included repentance and baptism.

[Ron Jon]

-tasted of the heavenly gift - we are told Jesus "tasted" death, Heb 2:9. Did Jesus fully die or just come close to dying?Jesus experienced death, however it was not permanent. In the same way those who "tasted of the heavenly gift" may have had a religious experience but that experience was not permanent. People "profess" to believe in Christ everyday, but that doesn't mean they have received the gift of salvation. If I attend a birthday party, I am experiencing the fun, laughter and entertainment, but that doesn't mean I've accepted any gifts. The same holds true in the church. A person can go to church, experience religious excitement and walk out of that church service just as unsaved as the moment they walked in. They "tasted" but they did not receive.

[Ron Jon]

Not only did the jailer believe, he was also repentant (washed their stripes) and was baptized. Verse 34 ASV says "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The participle phrase "having believed" includes everything the jailer had just did and we see he did not just "believe only" but was repentant and baptized so the jailers belief included repentance and baptism.The jailer exhibited his belief (faith) by his actions. You cannot see "belief," only actions. Therefore, in order for us to see a person's faith (belief) it must be followed by action. But it was not the action which saved him and his family. The jailer was not trusting in his actions to save him. He was trusting in the Lord Jesus.

[jmacvols]

My belief is faith and works must go hand in hand......

I absolutely agree with you on this.

[jmacvols]

Jesus experienced death, however it was not permanent. In the same way those who "tasted of the heavenly gift" may have had a religious experience but that experience was not permanent.


This does not change the fact that Christ tasted death means He fully and completely died as those who tasted of the heavenly gift fully and completely had the heavenly gift, they simply did not come "close" to it as Christ did not come close to death.

People "profess" to believe in Christ everyday, but that doesn't mean they have received the gift of salvation.

I agree, but Heb 6 does not address those that 'professed' but never received the heavenly gift.


If I attend a birthday party, I am experiencing the fun, laughter and entertainment, but that doesn't mean I've accepted any gifts. The same holds true in the church. A person can go to church, experience religious excitement and walk out of that church service just as unsaved as the moment they walked in. They "tasted" but they did not receive.

You attended the party, you 'tasted' it by being there and participating whether you accepted any gifts or not.

Heb 2:9 - that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

When Jesus "tasted" death, did He fully incorporate death or did He have just a "near death " experience? When Jesus tasted death He actually possessed it as they actually possessed the gift of heaven.

[jmacvols]

The jailer exhibited his belief (faith) by his actions. You cannot see "belief," only actions.

Yes, faith without works is dead, so belief without actions is dead and useless.

Therefore, in order for us to see a person's faith (belief) it must be followed by action.

Yes, without those actions (works) you could not even prove that the belief even exists. Belief is tied to those actions, without those actions belief is dead.

Belief (with works) >>>> salvation

But it was not the action which saved him and his family. The jailer was not trusting in his actions to save him. He was trusting in the Lord Jesus.

BUt non-action (doing nothing) did not save the jailer, non-action does not save anyone. The belief he had prior to being saved must have included works else it was dead. Belief itself is a work, Jn 6:27-29.


Salvation is:

Belief (works) >>>>>salvation

You have it:

Belief (no works)>>>>salvation>>>>>works follow salvation.

You're initial belief(no works) is dead, and a dead belief cannot save. The works must come before salvation in order to have a living, viable belief that can save.

[baysidetrey]

The verses you quoted do NOT show that Paul preached "water baptism". It only shows that he preached "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Once they believed, they were "saved" and as new believers (saved) they followed the Christian example and were baptized.

How about this one?

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said , Unto John's baptism.4.Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is , on Christ Jesus.5.When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6.And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

See, there is a common theme. The gospel is preached, those who HEAR repent and are baptized. Also, in 1 Cor. Paul indeed says that he baptized people.

[hben]

See, there is a common theme. The gospel is preached, those who HEAR repent and are baptized. Also, in 1 Cor. Paul indeed says that he baptized people.

Whenever a sinner professes salvation, what possible reason could he have for purposely making the choice not to repent and be baptized other than the probability that he was not genuinely saved when he professed to be. The first fruit of having a genuinely changed life would be the act of obedience to the Lord's commands...thus repentence and baptism.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Whenever a sinner gets saved what possible reason could he have for choosing not to repent and be baptized other than the fact that he was sincerely and genuinely saved when he professed to be. The first fruit of having a genuinely changed life would be the act of obedience to the Lord's commands...thus repentence and baptism.


Every human being has a breaking point, as someone said in another thread. If God can find that breaking point, so can Satan.

[hben]

Every human being has a breaking point, as someone said in another thread. If God can find that breaking point, so can Satan.

What breaking point? What does a breaking point have to do with not repenting or being baptized?

[baysidetrey]

Whenever a sinner gets saved what possible reason could he have for choosing not to repent and be baptized other than the fact that he was sincerely and genuinely saved when he professed to be. The first fruit of having a genuinely changed life would be the act of obedience to the Lord's commands...thus repentence and baptism.

In your opinion of course.
However, why would Peter command some to be baptized?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Paul say it washes away sins.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou ? arise , and be baptized , and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Peter also tells us it is for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter also tells us that baptism saves us.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

We could go on and on.

[Koushi Shinigami]

What breaking point? What does a breaking point have to do with not repenting or being baptized?

Would depend on the individual.

Has to do with an individual experiencing something so traumatic as to lose all faith in God or the desire to ever repent again.

[hben]

In your opinion of course.
However, why would Peter command some to be baptized?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Paul say it washes away sins.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou ? arise , and be baptized , and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Peter also tells us it is for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter also tells us that baptism saves us.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

We could go on and on.

In your opinion, water baptism saves you and washes away your sins. In my opinion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves you at the moment you place your trust in the Savior, and it is His blood that washes away your sins...at the same moment.

[baysidetrey]

In your opinion, water baptism saves you and washes away your sins. In my opinion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves you at the moment you place your trust in the Savior, and it is His blood that washes away your sins...at the same moment.

I did not write Acts or Peter, so it would not be my opinion, it would be what the Apostles said. I used their words through their writtings to support my view, not my opinion. BTW, you did not answer why Peter commanded it.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I did not write Acts or Peter, so it would not be my opinion, it would be what the Apostles said.


And since it's in the bible that God wrote, wouldn't that make it God's opinion?

[baysidetrey]

And since it's in the bible that God wrote, wouldn't that make it God's opinion?

That's how I see it.

[hben]

I did not write Acts or Peter, so it would not be my opinion, it would be what the Apostles said. I used their words through their writtings to support my view, not my opinion. BTW, you did not answer why Peter commanded it.

Peter only did what any preacher is supposed to do...myself included. He only passed the commandments of the Lord on; he didn't command anything new by his own authority.

Matthew 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

[baysidetrey]

Peter only did what any preacher is supposed to do...myself included. He only passed the commandments of the Lord on; he didn't command anything new by his own authority.

Matthew 28:19-20, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

So, now you agree that the Lord commanded baptism. Peter, Paul and the others only explained what Christ meant by baptism and followed His instructions. See, it's not that difficult.

[hben]

So, now you agree that the Lord commanded baptism. Peter, Paul and the others only explained what Christ meant by baptism and followed His instructions. See, it's not that difficult.

With all due respect bayside, I am a Baptist minister...why do you think we were given the name "Baptist"? We didn't name ourselves; others outside of our faith gave us that name. Jesus commanded us to love one another, too. Love needs no explanation, and dunking needs no explanation. But neither saves anyone. They just show that one has been saved.

[hben]

If water could wash sins away, then Jesus died for nothing. There was plenty of water around before Jesus shed His blood.

[Koushi Shinigami]

If water could wash sins away, then Jesus died for nothing. There was plenty of water around before Jesus shed His blood.

So you're saying the act of baptism is symbolic only. That the act itself changes or creates nothing.

[baysidetrey]

With all due respect bayside, I am a Baptist minister...why do you think we were given the name "Baptist"? We didn't name ourselves; others outside of our faith gave us that name. Jesus commanded us to love one another, too. Love needs no explanation, and dunking needs no explanation. But neither saves anyone. They just show that one has been saved.

First, with all due respect, Peter commanded it, said it was for the remission of sins and said it saves us. Who am I to disagree with Peter? Next, if you would like to go through the history of the Baptist church, I would be glad to. We could start here: http://www.archive.org/details/johnsmithsebapti00burgrich

[baysidetrey]

If water could wash sins away, then Jesus died for nothing. There was plenty of water around before Jesus shed His blood.

I also heard Naaman could not understand how dipping seven times in the Jordan washed away leprosy. I gave you examples in the bible where Peter and Paul say water does indeed wash away sins and does save us. Please show me where they erred.

[hben]

So you're saying the act of baptism is symbolic only. That the act itself changes or creates nothing.

It is simply an outward testimony of an inward faith in the Savior. It is the first work that follows a saving faith.

[Koushi Shinigami]

It is simply an outward testimony of an inward faith in the Savior. It is the first work that follows a saving faith.

Then what difference does it make in how it is done? If it's just an outward sign, pouring water over the head is as much a sign as a full dunk.

[baysidetrey]

Then what difference does it make in how it is done? If it's just an outward sign, pouring water over the head is as much a sign as a full dunk.

Amen!!! (Although I do not agree with pouring water/sprinkling etc.)

[hben]

Then what difference does it make in how it is done? If it's just an outward sign, pouring water over the head is as much a sign as a full dunk.

Because a genuine believer in Christ is not supposed get a little sprinkle of the Savior, he should want to be immersed in Christ...or buried with Christ, raised to walk in the newness of life.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Because a genuine believer in Christ is not supposed get a little sprinkle of the Savior, he should want to be immersed in Christ...or buried with Christ, raised to walk in the newness of life.

If that believer is immersed in the spirit, the amount of H20 used isn't important. If the ceremony of baptism is only symbolic, then how, or even IF it's done isn't important.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Hben,

What happens if a symbolic baptism ceremony is done 'wrong' according to how you think it should be done?

[hben]

Hben,

What happens if a symbolic baptism ceremony is done 'wrong' according to how you think it should be done?

What is right or wrong?

[Koushi Shinigami]

What is right or wrong?

You tell me.

Is pouring water over the head the correct method? If not, what happens when that method is used?

Is full dunk the only correct method?

[baysidetrey]

Hben, If you are busy with Koushi, I will wait for you . Please remember these are the points we left on.

First, with all due respect, Peter commanded it, said it was for the remission of sins and said it saves us. Who am I to disagree with Peter? Next, if you would like to go through the history of the Baptist church, I would be glad to. We could start here: http://www.archive.org/details/johns...apti00burgrich

I also heard Naaman could not understand how dipping seven times in the Jordan washed away leprosy. I gave you examples in the bible where Peter and Paul say water does indeed wash away sins and does save us. Please show me where they erred.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Hben, If you are busy with Koushi, I will wait for you .

Nah, you can have him back for a while. I've got to run off to a Boy Scout meeting right now.

[baysidetrey]

Nah, you can have him back for a while. I've got to run off to a Boy Scout meeting right now.

Have fun, I've got to go soon also but I promise to return him undamaged.

[hben]

You tell me.

Is pouring water over the head the correct method? If not, what happens when that method is used?

Is full dunk the only correct method?

I believe the word means to immerse or to dip, but I have never found any interpretation where sprinkle was used in the original text for baptise. Since I don't believe it is the water itself that saves, then obviously I don't believe a person who was sprinkled out of ignorance will lose his/her salvatioin, but I believe that once he/she is understands and is convicted that he/she should be encouraged to get scripturally baptised by immersion if at all possible.

[hben]

Hben, If you are busy with Koushi, I will wait for you . Please remember these are the points we left on.

First, with all due respect, Peter commanded it, said it was for the remission of sins and said it saves us. Who am I to disagree with Peter? Next, if you would like to go through the history of the Baptist church, I would be glad to. We could start here: http://www.archive.org/details/johns...apti00burgrich

I also heard Naaman could not understand how dipping seven times in the Jordan washed away leprosy. I gave you examples in the bible where Peter and Paul say water does indeed wash away sins and does save us. Please show me where they erred.

I never intended to get into the long drawn out debate this afternoon, so I'll have to get back to you on this. The bottom line is that I won't convince you, and you won't convince me, because I am Baptist to the bone, and you are Church of Christ to the bone. :snooty: :cool:

I need to go before the sun goes down. I didn't mean to stay on here this long. Later.

[baysidetrey]

I believe the word means to immerse or to dip, but I have never found any interpretation where sprinkle was used in the original text for baptise. Since I don't believe it is the water itself that saves, then obviously I don't believe a person who was sprinkled out of ignorance will lose his/her salvatioin, but I believe that once he/she is understands and is convicted that he/she should be encouraged to get scripturally baptised by immersion if at all possible.

In all fairness, I believe that this is the one instance it is translated differently.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

But, I believe it could have been because of the translation used.

[RayMan]

I never intended to get into the long drawn out debate this afternoon, so I'll have to get back to you on this. The bottom line is that I won't convince you, and you won't convince me, because I am Baptist to the bone, and you are Church of Christ to the bone. :snooty: :cool:

I need to go before the sun goes down. I didn't mean to stay on here this long. Later.

Celebrating Sabbath on Tuesday now? :whistle:

[Ron Jon]

When Jesus "tasted" death, did He fully incorporate death or did He have just a "near death " experience? When Jesus tasted death He actually possessed it as they actually possessed the gift of heaven.Neither. Jesus did not have a NDE. Jesus "died" in the sense His spirit left His body (He gave up the ghost) and a lifeless body was buried in the tomb. However, where was Jesus in that 3 day time period? Was His spirit alive? He conquered death and the grave. It [death] was not permanent. Therefore, Jesus only "tasted" death. He experienced it but death did not have control over Him. A person who is saved doesn't just "taste" the heavenly gift. They don't just embrace it but rather it overwhelms them. The ultimate power of the universe, the very Spirit of God rushes in and flows out from them. This is more than just a mere "taste". If you've only "tasted" the heavenly gift, I'm afraid you are missing out on the full feast God has to offer.

[Ron Jon]

Yes, faith without works is dead, so belief without actions is dead and useless.

Yes, without those actions (works) you could not even prove that the belief even exists. Belief is tied to those actions, without those actions belief is dead.

Belief (with works) >>>> salvation

BUt non-action (doing nothing) did not save the jailer, non-action does not save anyone. The belief he had prior to being saved must have included works else it was dead. Belief itself is a work, Jn 6:27-29.


Salvation is:

Belief (works) >>>>>salvation

You have it:

Belief (no works)>>>>salvation>>>>>works follow salvation.

You're initial belief(no works) is dead, and a dead belief cannot save. The works must come before salvation in order to have a living, viable belief that can save.I think you are missing the point. If the jailer had exhibited NON-ACTION then that would prove he DIDN'T have FAITH. His actions proved his faith was real. But it's not the actions which save. Like you said, a dead man is useless. How can someone who is dead in sin perform actions which would merit his salvation? Answer: He can't!

[Ron Jon]

Would depend on the individual.

Has to do with an individual experiencing something so traumatic as to lose all faith in God or the desire to ever repent again.Salvation is dependent upon God not Man. God can save such a person as you've described.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I believe the word means to immerse or to dip, but I have never found any interpretation where sprinkle was used in the original text for baptise. Since I don't believe it is the water itself that saves, then obviously I don't believe a person who was sprinkled out of ignorance will lose his/her salvatioin, but I believe that once he/she is understands and is convicted that he/she should be encouraged to get scripturally baptised by immersion if at all possible.

Why?

[DispensationalJim]

In your opinion of course.
However, why would Peter command some to be baptized?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Paul say it washes away sins.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou ? arise , and be baptized , and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Peter also tells us it is for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter also tells us that baptism saves us.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

We could go on and on.

Hey, bay ... or trey! I got behind here, so I just caught up.

First, I'll let you and hben continue your debate on the need for water baptism. But as I have said previously, in my dispensational view, I agree with you that Peter absolutely preached water baptism for the remission of sins. But he preached it TO ISRAEL.

• Acts 2:22 (Peter speaking) Ye men of Israel, hear these words;...
• Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. ... 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

=============================

But, please, trey, reread your Acts 22 passage. Paul is simply repeating his conversion experience which was originally described in Acts 9 (about 35 AD). It was NOT Paul telling someone else to be baptized. In Acts 22, Paul is giving his testimony in a "court" and stating that Ananius told him to be baptized (that testimony occurred about 60 AD but the baptism was about 25 years previously).

I have seen many folks who hold your view try to use that passage to show Paul approving of water baptism, but it just "ain't so."

=======================

And then you quoted from Peter's epistle and, again, thinking dispensationally, to whom was Peter writing? I believe it was the same Jewish believers to which James wrote:
• James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
1Pet. 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

So Peter, James and John wrote to the folks they agreed to minister to (the Jews) in these passages:
• Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
• Gal. 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles-- 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

And we read this which confirms their commitment to the Jewish remnant:
• Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

===========================

So, I see water baptism as a necessity for the Jews (just as it was in the OT) but once the Age of Grace began with Paul, water baptism was no longer necessary because of the "new" spiritual baptism seen in this verse:
• 1Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



Just wanted to get my 2 cents worth in on that. :)

[jmacvols]

Neither. Jesus did not have a NDE. Jesus "died" in the sense His spirit left His body (He gave up the ghost) and a lifeless body was buried in the tomb. However, where was Jesus in that 3 day time period? Was His spirit alive? He conquered death and the grave. It [death] was not permanent. Therefore, Jesus only "tasted" death. He experienced it but death did not have control over Him. A person who is saved doesn't just "taste" the heavenly gift. They don't just embrace it but rather it overwhelms them. The ultimate power of the universe, the very Spirit of God rushes in and flows out from them. This is more than just a mere "taste". If you've only "tasted" the heavenly gift, I'm afraid you are missing out on the full feast God has to offer.

You say Jesus "only" tasted death. What does 'only' mean here? You say "mere taste"? Jesus "only" died, Jesus "merely" died make Him less dead?
Verbal gymnastics?
The whole point was that when Hebrews says Jesus tasted death, tasted means He fully, completely possessed death. Likewise when one tastes the heavenly gift, he fully, completely possesses this gift.

[jmacvols]

I think you are missing the point. If the jailer had exhibited NON-ACTION then that would prove he DIDN'T have FAITH. His actions proved his faith was real. But it's not the actions which save. Like you said, a dead man is useless. How can someone who is dead in sin perform actions which would merit his salvation? Answer: He can't!

Nothing in the passage says the jailer's belief only saved him. As I pointed out before, the phrase "having believed" sums up everything the jailer had just done, meaning it includes his repenting and being baptized.

[hben]

If that believer is immersed in the spirit, the amount of H20 used isn't important. If the ceremony of baptism is only symbolic, then how, or even IF it's done isn't important.

If a new believer can't even follow the first commandment out of obedience to the Lord, how in the world is he going to follow the Lord the rest of his life?

[hben]

Celebrating Sabbath on Tuesday now? :whistle:

No, I am celebrating the blessing of being able to put beans on the table for another day.

[hben]

Why?

Out of obedience to the Lord's commandment.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Out of obedience to the Lord's commandment.

Was the Lord big on commanding pointless symbolism be performed for him?

[hben]

Was the Lord big on commanding pointless symbolism be performed for him?

We only observe two ordinances that the Lord told us to do specifically. These are Baptism and the Lord's Supper. So I'd say that He wasn't real big on commanding pointless symbolism, because nothing He ever did was pointless. You do bring up a good point though, because if water could have washed away our sins, then the shedding of the Lord's blood and the His death on the cross would have certainly been pointless...but of course they were not.

[Koushi Shinigami]

We only observe two ordinances that the Lord told us to do specifically. These are Baptism and the Lord's Supper. So I'd say that He wasn't real big on commanding pointless symbolism, because nothing He ever did was pointless. You do bring up a good point though, because if water could have washed away our sins, then the shedding of the Lord's blood and the His death on the cross would have certainly been pointless...but of course they were not.

So then there must be something more to baptism than mere symbolism, and something more that just "Jesus commanded it just because".

[hben]

So then there must be something more to baptism than mere symbolism, and something more that just "Jesus commanded it just because".

Just because? Just because it represents the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and our identification with Him through it when we get saved. If you think that is unimportant, then I am not sure what you consider important.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Just because? Just because it represents the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and our identification with Him through it when we get saved. If you think that is unimportant, then I am not sure what you consider important.

I don't understand why you insist on saying it is just an outward sign and in the same breath insist that it is something more. Pick one.

Either it's just a symbolic gesture that does nothing.
Or it is commanded by Jesus because it has a real purpose.

[hben]

I don't understand why you insist on saying it is just an outward sign and in the same breath insist that it is something more. Pick one.

I don't understand what it is that you don't understand. It is what it is. It is the same as the faith and works argument that never gets settled. Works are important, but they just don't save.

Either it's just a symbolic gesture that does nothing.

Or it is commanded by Jesus because it has a real purpose.

In your world it is either/or, but your world is a little different than the one most live in. :whistle:

Just because it doesn't save anyone doesn't mean it has no purpose. You can't seem to grasp that, and I can't make you grasp it. Life is too short to spend much time trying. :))

[Koushi Shinigami]

Just because it doesn't save anyone doesn't mean it has no purpose.


Then, it is more than a symbol.

[agoodfoundation]

So then there must be something more to baptism than mere symbolism, and something more that just "Jesus commanded it just because".


its about showing you follow Christ. Being a testimony to other people to say " I have accepted what Christ did in my life and am ready to follow him and let him lead me through life"

Death shows your sin and your need for a Saviour. Burial shows how you have accpeted Christ . Resurrections shows your new life in Christ and your devotion to Him.

Jesus was baptized, and if Jesus was baptized, I would certainly want to be baptized to follow him.

Matthew 28:1919Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[hben]

Then, it is more than a symbol.

Then according to you, symbols have no purpose? Why else would having a purpose cancel out being symbolic? I still don't understand your point. Some of the greatest symbols of freedom have the greatest purpose for freedom such as "Old Glory". Though it is nothing more than a piece of material, it represents something that makes people shed tears while singing the national athem to it, saying the pledge of allegience to it, saluting it or just gazing at it knowing what it represents. It is symbolic, and it has a purpose. They go together, and one doesn't cancel out the other. Baptism is symbolic and it has a definite purpose.

[ellis]

Then according to you, symbols have no purpose? Why else would having a purpose cancel out being symbolic? I still don't understand your point. Some of the greatest symbols of freedom have the greatest purpose for freedom such as "Old Glory". Though it is nothing more than a piece of material, it represents something that makes people shed tears while singing the national athem to it, saying the pledge of allegience to it, saluting it or just gazing at it knowing what it represents. It is symbolic, and it has a purpose. They go together, and one doesn't cancel out the other. Baptism is symbolic and it has a definite purpose.
You're right hb and the purpose being a testimony to those witnessing the event.
Also, I consider it somewhat like a handshake when two people seal an agreement.
Not only that you're doing something called for in many scripture verses.
In my church and probably all in this area, when a person confesses and accepts Jesus as his Savior, he is not baptized for several days, maybe a couple of weeks. Meanwhile, if he dies before baptism, is he then lost or saved.
I recall where I grew up in rural MS, at a particular church, if a person confessed at night they would go down to a nearby pond and use car headlights to baptize just in case the person might die that night.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Then according to you, symbols have no purpose? Why else would having a purpose cancel out being symbolic? I still don't understand your point. Some of the greatest symbols of freedom have the greatest purpose for freedom such as "Old Glory". Though it is nothing more than a piece of material, it represents something that makes people shed tears while singing the national athem to it, saying the pledge of allegience to it, saluting it or just gazing at it knowing what it represents. It is symbolic, and it has a purpose. They go together, and one doesn't cancel out the other. Baptism is symbolic and it has a definite purpose.

Symbols have a purpose. That purpose is to remind us of something. However, symbols can have many forms. "Old Glory" has 24 stars. The "Star Spangled Banner" Had 15. There have been 27 different forms for the flag of our country, but all have symbolized the same thing.

You say that there can only be one form for baptism or it must be done over? Why? If it's just a symbol and you have water and a repentant sinner then it's a baptism. If it MUST be done one certain way or "it doesn't take" then it's more than a symbol and it's doing more than just reminding us of our commitment to Christ.

Ellis's story of the pond in the dark is a good example of this. "Better get 'em wet before they die or they burn" indicates that the baptism itself is doing something actively in the salvation.

[hben]

Symbols have a purpose. That purpose is to remind us of something. However, symbols can have many forms. "Old Glory" has 24 stars. The "Star Spangled Banner" Had 15. There have been 27 different forms for the flag of our country, but all have symbolized the same thing.

You say that there can only be one form for baptism or it must be done over? Why? If it's just a symbol and you have water and a repentant sinner then it's a baptism. If it MUST be done one certain way or "it doesn't take" then it's more than a symbol and it's doing more than just reminding us of our commitment to Christ.

Ellis's story of the pond in the dark is a good example of this. "Better get 'em wet before they die or they burn" indicates that the baptism itself is doing something actively in the salvation.

For your information, my church accepts members from other denominations without rebaptism, but we are in the minority among the Baptist churches. When we wrote our constitution, we wrote it so that it is not a requirement for membership coming from another denomination, but that the pastor would counsel with any such new members about what Baptists believe about baptism, and give them the option to do as they are convicted to do.

[Koushi Shinigami]

For your information, my church accepts members from other denominations without rebaptism, but we are in the minority among the Baptist churches.



Gotta love that 'standardization'. :rolleyes:



When we wrote our constitution, we wrote it so that it is not a requirement for membership coming from another denomination, but that the pastor would counsel with any such new members about what Baptists believe about baptism, and give them the option to do as they are convicted to do.


Interesssssssstinnnnng. :think:

[Thank you Troops]

My faith is salvation is eternal and noncorruptible, kept, guarded by God and cannot change.

1Peter 1:3-9
"All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay."

[hben]

My faith is salvation is eternal and noncorruptible, kept, guarded by God and cannot change.

1Peter 1:3-9
"All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay."

Amen. Jesus gave His life not only to provide my salvation but also to protect it from ever being at risk. I am so thankful my faith isn't up for grabs.

[hben]

Gotta love that 'standardization'. :rolleyes:

What is your standard? I have yet to figure that out.

Interesssssssstinnnnng. :think:

God gave us free will even though He leads us every step of the way if we will only surrender to His Son.

[Jacob_Rising]

Jmacvols>>>>""""I believe my name was written in the Lamb's Book when I obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. My name will remain in that book as long as I remain a faithful Christian."""""
WHY do folks put conditions on verses; is it to try to justify their particular notions. Jesus did not put any conditions in Rev. 3:5.
Daniel 7:9 '' I watched till thrones were put in place, and the ancient of days was seated{Rosh Hashannah}.......The court was seated and the books{plural} were opened.

Revelation 3: 5 '' He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life.

Revelation 20:12'' And books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged according TO THEIR WORKS{book of rememberence}, by the things which were written in the books.

The lambs book of life is not the book of Salvation in my opinion.

Only the overcomers are written in this book of {ZOE} life, Those who gained a more abundant life than just life. The Zoe life.

Many saved people will come up to the marridge supper of the lamb but will not be able to enter into the abundant life but they are still saved.

Many will say, ''But we taught Jesus in the streets and we did miracles in your name.''

They completely believed in Jesus and even did miracles in his name but still they are not written in the lambs book of life where the overcomers are.

Believing in Jesus might lead to salvation but it does not necessarily lead you into the lambs book of abundant life.

[Koushi Shinigami]

What is your standard? I have yet to figure that out.


It's posted in this forum.



God gave us free will even though He leads us every step of the way if we will only surrender to His Son.

Then why a difference? Why is your congregation in the 'minority'?

[ellis]

jacob_rising
"The lambs book of life is not the book of Salvation in my opinion."

WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?????

"Believing in Jesus might lead to salvation but it does not necessarily lead you into the lambs book of abundant life."

WHAT IS THE LAMBS BOOK OF "ABUNDANT" LIFE????

[RayMan]

jacob_rising
"The lambs book of life is not the book of Salvation in my opinion."

WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?????

"Believing in Jesus might lead to salvation but it does not necessarily lead you into the lambs book of abundant life."

WHAT IS THE LAMBS BOOK OF "ABUNDANT" LIFE????

Jacob has a unique slant on Christian theology.

[Jacob_Rising]

jacob_rising
"The lambs book of life is not the book of Salvation in my opinion."

WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?????

"Believing in Jesus might lead to salvation but it does not necessarily lead you into the lambs book of abundant life."

WHAT IS THE LAMBS BOOK OF "ABUNDANT" LIFE????Revelation shows you 7 churches where everyone believes in Jesus, but the overcomers are very rare in any of these churches and it teaches you over and over what the difference is in the everyday Christians who believe in Jesus, and what the rewards of the overcomers are.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God{Jerusalem}.

''Clothered in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the BOOK OF LIFE: But I will confess his name before my father.'

He who overcomes, I will Make HIM a PILLAR IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him{SEALED} the name of my God, The new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him my new name. '' He who has an ear, Let him hear what the spirit says to the churches.

This only applies to the very rare people who obtain this particular reward.

We are shown this New Jerusalem which comes out of Heaven and shown the Paradise in Revelation, But there are still the multitudes that are saved but are outside the city and not allowed to enter that city.

We are shown exactly who are marked on their foreheads with the seal of God's protection.

Everytime Jesus said, '' The kingdom of heaven is like''

He breaks down the levels in the kingdom of heaven and shows you the overcomers and the just saved.

The desciples of Jesus gave their life to God, and Jesus said, You shall sit and judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

It's because they will have no judgement, and there are few judges, The rest of the people will be judged but the overcomers will not be.

Revelation 20:4 '' And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness for Jesus, and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image.....And they lived for a thousand years with Christ, But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

'' Blessed and Holy is he who has part in the first resurection. Over such, the second death has no power, BUT THEY shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years.''

Not everyone who believes in Jesus are overcomers, I believe most Christians wont rule and reign for a thousand years, I don't believe that I will.

I would be the dead waiting a thousand years for judgment.

[ellis]

Thanks jacob, but I'm sticking with the clear, concise verses of Rev. as below. None of your post refutes these verses. Why is it so hard for anyone to believe the simple verses in Rev. 3:5 and 13:8.

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This verse indicates that people's names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This verse indicates that people's names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.

[Thank you Troops]

REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This verse indicates that people's names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.


What that says to me is those that are saved had their names written in the book of life before the world was made. The below verse somewhat backs that up in saying those that are martyerd for their testimony are known and all of them haven't deen martyerd as of yet.

Revelation 6: 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony.10 They shouted to the Lord and said, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?"11 Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them."

[Thank you Troops]

Here is the sum of the argument for loosing your salvation. People take versus that say things like you must "endure", "abide", "hold fast", and "continue" in your faith to be saved. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is not be works but by grace, a free gift, forever, it's supernatural, and it was from the beginning before the world was made. We cannot earn our faith. I don't believe the Bible will contradict itself.

What I believe is someone with real faith will give evidence of all those things. Enduring, abiding, holding fast and contunuing are all evidences of those that are saved. We will endure if we are really saved. I have witnessed that and that is true in my life. It doesn't mean that I am perfect and will never sin again, but I hold onto my faith. That is the nature of saving faith.

[lucky]

My personal opinion has for some time been that Once Saved, Always Saved/Eternal Security is true, alive and well.
Many naysayers state that the reason I and others like and believe in OSAS is so that we can be joined with or birthed into some particular group and then continue on sinning with no ill effects.
Nothing could be further from the truth and possibly the naysayers should be more concerned with their own salvation than someone else’s.

The following link provides a long discussion concerning some verses which many say refutes the idea of OSAS/Eternal Security: http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

Generally speaking, I agree with what is written in the above link and in any case do not believe Heb. 6:8 refutes what is written in Rev. 3:5 and 13:8.
Also, many say that John 10:28-29 does not, without doubt, provide absolute OSAS/Eternal Security since they say the believer himself could possibly snatch himself from God and salvation, but note the verses say “no one”.
John 10: 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
There are many that say the word “overcomes” specifically means to not commit any further sin after accepting/receiving salvation. And we should know this to be an impossibility.
1 John 1:8-10 “8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”

REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
This verse indicates that some people’s names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.
There are some versions that change the wording of Rev. 13:8 to read as follows:
“And all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.”

REV. 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

Link provides some very good info: http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

Ellis,

When quoting from Revelation we have to be cautious because of the use of language. This book is unique because of the anthology or compendium of literary genres, as Ryken likes to write. There is a caution we must consider when venturing into Revelation because of the use of poetry and story. The images, similes, and symbols have to be taken from a very serious historical point to understand the nuanced statements within the book, however. I would argue that they are not nuanced as we make them when we look at the literary genre seriously.

Sean

[RayMan]

Ellis,

When quoting from Revelation we have to be cautious because of the use of language. This book is unique because of the anthology or compendium of literary genres, as Ryken likes to write. There is a caution we must consider when venturing into Revelation because of the use of poetry and story. The images, similes, and symbols have to be taken from a very serious historical point to understand the nuanced statements within the book, however. I would argue that they are not nuanced as we make them when we look at the literary genre seriously.

Sean

Hi Lucky,
Please jog my memory. Are you a Preterist?

[lucky]

Hi Lucky,
Please jog my memory. Are you a Preterist?

Not exactly, however, the historical research from Preterism is important in the discussion, but I never feel that Preterism answers every historical question. Are you familiar with N.T. Wright? I really enjoy his discussion with Second Temple Judaism and the New Testament. Really good stuff. I take his research very serious but Preterism can't define define my hermeneutics.

[RayMan]

Not exactly, however, the historical research from Preterism is important in the discussion, but I never feel that Preterism answers every historical question. Are you familiar with N.T. Wright? I really enjoy his discussion with Second Temple Judaism and the New Testament. Really good stuff. I take his research very serious but Preterism can't define define my hermeneutics.

Thanks.
I am a fan of N.T. Wright. Especially his writings on the intermediate state and resurrection.

[lucky]

Thanks.
I am a fan of N.T. Wright. Especially his writings on the intermediate state and resurrection.
Bravo, it is great to read that! Have you ever read Jurgen Moltmann's belief of the resurrection?

He believes that all of history collapses upon the moment of the resurrection. Basically, the resurrection is history future and all of history is moving to that moment. It is very eschatological and communal.

I believe it where Moltmann and Wright sort of meet there.

[FoxGranadaChuck]

Ellis,

When quoting from Revelation we have to be cautious because of the use of language. This book is unique because of the anthology or compendium of literary genres, as Ryken likes to write. There is a caution we must consider when venturing into Revelation because of the use of poetry and story. The images, similes, and symbols have to be taken from a very serious historical point to understand the nuanced statements within the book, however. I would argue that they are not nuanced as we make them when we look at the literary genre seriously.

Sean


Lucky, where have you been dude?! Long time no see!!!

[RayMan]

Bravo, it is great to read that! Have you ever read Jurgen Moltmann's belief of the resurrection?

He believes that all of history collapses upon the moment of the resurrection. Basically, the resurrection is history future and all of history is moving to that moment. It is very eschatological and communal.

I believe it where Moltmann and Wright sort of meet there.

Haven't read Moltmann. Will look him up. Thanks.

[lucky]

Lucky, where have you been dude?! Long time no see!!!

World of Warcraft and finishing the back side of my M.Div.

What have you been up too?

[Jacob_Rising]

Thanks jacob, but I'm sticking with the clear, concise verses of Rev. as below. None of your post refutes these verses. Why is it so hard for anyone to believe the simple verses in Rev. 3:5 and 13:8.

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This verse indicates that people's names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.

REV. 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
REV. Chapter 13 speaks of the "beast" which is symbolic of the "antichrist" and significant is verse 8.
REV. 13:8 "All who dwell upon the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This verse indicates that people's names are entered in the Lambs Book during their life and when would be a more logical time than at the time they accept Jesus Christ.That's cool Ellis, If it's any help, everyone thinks I'm the big nut in here, and we all have our different beliefs.

Hey I noticed you from Rusk, I'm from Troup.

Rusk always came up in the conversations in East Texas because of their mental ward,'' You need to go to Rusk'':D

It's like 50 years behind times there, everyone still drives slow cause there aint nothin else to do.

Anyway, I have alot of scriptures that show different rewards, and I'm not completely certain about what I say about the lambs book of life, but I am certain about the different outcomes and different rewards there are for different Christians.

In Old Testament Theology, we are waiting on a day of fire when everyone who has ever lived will be tested by that fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13 Each one's work will become manifest because the day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire: and the fire will test each one's work..........If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer a loss: But he himself will be saved, Yet so as through a fire.

This tells me that everyone will be tested by fire, and just like Meschak, Shadrack, and abendago, and at least 3 of the desciples, Everyone will either stand in the flame and not be scorched, But many will burn and die and wait a thousand years on judgement.

Many will stand in the flames and not die, Those are the overcomers.

Ellis, Revelation has over 700 references to the law and the prophets and it speaks completely to people who know Jewish customs and Holy days, What I mean is, John was exiled and he wrote the Revelation in code, so as to say things in secret to his own brethren.

The concept of being marked on your forehead and right arm is one of the biggest and most important customs in Jewish custom.

Have you ever seen the Jews where that box on their foreheads and they tie the leather on their forearm?

This comes from Exodus 13 which exactly shows you how to be sealed on your forehead with God's protection and this seal protects you from the fire that comes to scorch the Earth.

Revelation 7::3 '' Do not harm the Earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads{Exodus 13}.

Immediatly after everyone considered Israel are sealed{Jew and Gentiles} We see what has just happened.

''After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb.''

These people had just died, while the 144,000 did not die.

Revelation 7:14 '' These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.''

While these people died and did indeed go to heaven, Everyone considered true Israel are sealed with protection and do not die.

These two witnesses who are the 2 sons of God remain on Earth and are given power.

They are Jews and gentiles considered to be true Israel.

They are the two kingdoms of Israel that are promised to reunite and become one in the last days.

The kingdom of Judah and the Jews, become one with the kingdom of Israel{Ephraim}

The kingdom of Ephraim are the ten lost tribes of Israel.

Paul, and Jesus both taught that gentiles are grafted through the promise made to the return of the ten lost tribes.

Romans 9-25 Even us who he called, Not of the Jews only , but also the gentiles, as he states in Hosea, '' I will call them my people who are not my people.''

This quote in Hosea is talking to the ten lost tribes of Ephraim alone, thus Christian gentiles are grafted through the prodigal nation of Israel.

Gentiles are adopted into Israel through the promised return of Ephraim{ten tribes}

[ellis]

Jacob>>""Hey I noticed you from Rusk, I'm from Troup.""

Actually I'm from beautiful Ponta on the banks of the lovely Mud Creek. I live on a dead end dirt road, 12 dogs, 3-4 dozen cows, shotgun, rifle, 4 wheeler, a country boy casn survive.
I love to sing gospel music and sang at Troup a few nights ago at the small Baptist church about 5-6 miles east on FM 15. They sing there once/month.
I just came across an accompniment CD of Hank Williams old "House of Gold" and man it is a GREAT song.
As they say in Texas, I'm "fixin" to leave for a singing at Palestine tonight. I go to one somewhere about every weekend.
I have a CD of "Long Black Train" and I was able to capture the sound of a rushing steam locomotive with blowing whistle and have it added to the CD so that the CD opens with the train sound and then comes back in between the 2nd and last verse where there in a 20 second music interlude.
I've sold a few Limousins (4-door cows) to folks around Troup.

[Jacob_Rising]

Jacob>>""Hey I noticed you from Rusk, I'm from Troup.""

Actually I'm from beautiful Ponta on the banks of the lovely Mud Creek. I live on a dead end dirt road, 12 dogs, 3-4 dozen cows, shotgun, rifle, 4 wheeler, a country boy casn survive.
I love to sing gospel music and sang at Troup a few nights ago at the small Baptist church about 5-6 miles east on FM 15. They sing there once/month.
I just came across an accompniment CD of Hank Williams old "House of Gold" and man it is a GREAT song.
As they say in Texas, I'm "fixin" to leave for a singing at Palestine tonight. I go to one somewhere about every weekend.
I have a CD of "Long Black Train" and I was able to capture the sound of a rushing steam locomotive with blowing whistle and have it added to the CD so that the CD opens with the train sound and then comes back in between the 2nd and last verse where there in a 20 second music interlude.
I've sold a few Limousins (4-door cows) to folks around Troup.
I think that's the same church my family always went to, the Webbs, The Souths, Bomars and others.

[ellis]

O.K. so, Christ's blood has redemed ALL your sins past, present and future? You do not need to worry about "falling away"?
BINGO, oops, sorry about that. Yes, that is the only way for me. All of us sin/fall short of the glory of God every day and more than likely will the last day of our lives.
I think the most important part of salvation is the part about confessing, accepting Jesus AT the urging of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, walking the aisle is usless except for the fact that the person at least considered his situation and there is a good chance he could later respond to the actual urging.

[DispensationalJim]

That's cool Ellis, If it's any help, everyone thinks I'm the big nut in here, and we all have our different beliefs.

Hey I noticed you from Rusk, I'm from Troup.

Rusk always came up in the conversations in East Texas because of their mental ward,'' You need to go to Rusk'':D

It's like 50 years behind times there, everyone still drives slow cause there aint nothin else to do.

Anyway, I have alot of scriptures that show different rewards, and I'm not completely certain about what I say about the lambs book of life, but I am certain about the different outcomes and different rewards there are for different Christians.

In Old Testament Theology, we are waiting on a day of fire when everyone who has ever lived will be tested by that fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13 Each one's work will become manifest because the day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire: and the fire will test each one's work..........If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer a loss: But he himself will be saved, Yet so as through a fire.

This tells me that everyone will be tested by fire, and just like Meschak, Shadrack, and abendago, and at least 3 of the desciples, Everyone will either stand in the flame and not be scorched, But many will burn and die and wait a thousand years on judgement.

Many will stand in the flames and not die, Those are the overcomers.

Ellis, Revelation has over 700 references to the law and the prophets and it speaks completely to people who know Jewish customs and Holy days, What I mean is, John was exiled and he wrote the Revelation in code, so as to say things in secret to his own brethren.

The concept of being marked on your forehead and right arm is one of the biggest and most important customs in Jewish custom.

Have you ever seen the Jews where that box on their foreheads and they tie the leather on their forearm?

This comes from Exodus 13 which exactly shows you how to be sealed on your forehead with God's protection and this seal protects you from the fire that comes to scorch the Earth.

Revelation 7::3 '' Do not harm the Earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads{Exodus 13}.

Immediatly after everyone considered Israel are sealed{Jew and Gentiles} We see what has just happened.

''After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb.''

These people had just died, while the 144,000 did not die.

Revelation 7:14 '' These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.''

While these people died and did indeed go to heaven, Everyone considered true Israel are sealed with protection and do not die.

These two witnesses who are the 2 sons of God remain on Earth and are given power.

They are Jews and gentiles considered to be true Israel.

They are the two kingdoms of Israel that are promised to reunite and become one in the last days.

The kingdom of Judah and the Jews, become one with the kingdom of Israel{Ephraim}

The kingdom of Ephraim are the ten lost tribes of Israel.

Paul, and Jesus both taught that gentiles are grafted through the promise made to the return of the ten lost tribes.

Romans 9-25 Even us who he called, Not of the Jews only , but also the gentiles, as he states in Hosea, '' I will call them my people who are not my people.''

This quote in Hosea is talking to the ten lost tribes of Ephraim alone, thus Christian gentiles are grafted through the prodigal nation of Israel.

Gentiles are adopted into Israel through the promised return of Ephraim{ten tribes}

That demonstrates many of the reasons why I determined that "dispensationalism" is the way to go. :)

My apostle is Paul, who wrote:
• 2Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[baysidetrey]

BINGO, oops, sorry about that. Yes, that is the only way for me. All of us sin/fall short of the glory of God every day and more than likely will the last day of our lives.
I think the most important part of salvation is the part about confessing, accepting Jesus AT the urging of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, walking the aisle is usless except for the fact that the person at least considered his situation and there is a good chance he could later respond to the actual urging.

I like your honesty of your position. Now, what is the difference between your view and the view of selling indulgences other than the money?

On the boards we have an atheist who once truly believed, in his testimony. Do you believe he is still saved or do you believe that he lied about his belief?

Does it not also take away hope as you can not hope for something you already have?

Finally, if OSAS were true, who are you to judge my non belief in OSAS? I have already been "saved" by OSAS theology so I may teach anything I wish as it won't matter, I am already saved and will never lose it. It is my "indulgence" to sin (refer to my earlier story). There are many more points, but we can start here.

[ellis]

Posted by baysidetrey
"I like your honesty of your position. Now, what is the difference between your view and the view of selling indulgences other than the money?"

It would be OK as long as it was counterfeit money. ;-), Seriously, I don't have a clue about indulgences, so no need for my comment.

"On the boards we have an atheist who once truly believed, in his testimony. Do you believe he is still saved or do you believe that he lied about his belief?"

Satan also "believes"; just belief is not enough.

"Does it not also take away hope as you can not hope for something you already have?"

I believe that if a person is truly saved he will know that nothing can change his mind and that his salvation is eternal.

"Finally, if OSAS were true, who are you to judge my non belief in OSAS? I have already been "saved" by OSAS theology so I may teach anything I wish as it won't matter, I am already saved and will never lose it. It is my "indulgence" to sin (refer to my earlier story). There are many more points, but we can start here."

I really don't know how to answer this except that I'm not in to judging. Other than yourself only God knows whether or not you are saved.
I suspect there are some truly saved people in some denomination that does not believe in OSAS and the person would go along with the denomination belief, but in the back of his mind he knows he has eternal security.

[hben]

Then why a difference? Why is your congregation in the 'minority'?

Because the majority of our church who wrote our constitution didn't agree with the majority of Baptist churches on this particular issue. I wasn't in full agreement with the writers of our constitution on this issue for the record.

[hben]

BINGO, oops, sorry about that. Yes, that is the only way for me. All of us sin/fall short of the glory of God every day and more than likely will the last day of our lives.
I think the most important part of salvation is the part about confessing, accepting Jesus AT the urging of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, walking the aisle is usless except for the fact that the person at least considered his situation and there is a good chance he could later respond to the actual urging.

Do I hear an "AMEN" from the "Amen Corner"?

And hben responds with a hearty, "AMEN!!!"

[hben]

Posted by baysidetrey
"I like your honesty of your position. Now, what is the difference between your view and the view of selling indulgences other than the money?"

It would be OK as long as it was counterfeit money. ;-), Seriously, I don't have a clue about indulgences, so no need for my comment.

"On the boards we have an atheist who once truly believed, in his testimony. Do you believe he is still saved or do you believe that he lied about his belief?"

Satan also "believes"; just belief is not enough.

"Does it not also take away hope as you can not hope for something you already have?"

I believe that if a person is truly saved he will know that nothing can change his mind and that his salvation is eternal.

"Finally, if OSAS were true, who are you to judge my non belief in OSAS? I have already been "saved" by OSAS theology so I may teach anything I wish as it won't matter, I am already saved and will never lose it. It is my "indulgence" to sin (refer to my earlier story). There are many more points, but we can start here."

I really don't know how to answer this except that I'm not in to judging. Other than yourself only God knows whether or not you are saved.
I suspect there are some truly saved people in some denomination that does not believe in OSAS and the person would go along with the denomination belief, but in the back of his mind he knows he has eternal security.

Ellis, you are doing good. Keep following the convictions of your heart and your answers will be right on. The same Spirit that saved you and keeps you saved is also the ONE who gives you the answers when you need them. ;)

Keep up the good work. It is good to have you on this board speaking the truth in love. :D

[jmacvols]

BINGO, oops, sorry about that. Yes, that is the only way for me. All of us sin/fall short of the glory of God every day and more than likely will the last day of our lives.
I think the most important part of salvation is the part about confessing, accepting Jesus AT the urging of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, walking the aisle is usless except for the fact that the person at least considered his situation and there is a good chance he could later respond to the actual urging.

Hello ellis,

Baysidetrey asked you if Christ's blood has cleansed ALL your sins, past, present and future. You answered with "BINGO". But then you say "all of us sin/fall short.
How do you sin if Christ has already forgiven you ALL your sins, past, present and future? Were you born with ALL your sins forgive, [something Calvinism denys, Calvinsim says you are born a sinner].

In the bible there were those that were commanded to repent as in Acts 2:38. Obviously their sins were not all forgiven past, present and future, they currently had sins that needed forgiveness right then. They had to obey by repenting and being baptized to have remission (forgiveness) of sins. So obedience to the Lord's will in repenting and being baptized is what brings about forgiveness.
John says "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." - 1 Jn 1:7.
So one must walk (obey) in the light if he desires Christ blood to cleanse away his sins.
"IF" we walk in the light, "if" makes it conditional, so "IF" I quit walking in the light, then Jesus blood no longer washes away my sins.

[hben]

Hello ellis,

Baysidetrey asked you if Christ's blood has cleansed ALL your sins, past, present and future. You answered with "BINGO". But then you say "all of us sin/fall short.
How do you sin if Christ has already forgiven you ALL your sins, past, present and future? Were you born with ALL your sins forgive, [something Calvinism denys, Calvinsim says you are born a sinner].

In the bible there were those that were commanded to repent as in Acts 2:38. Obviously their sins were not all forgiven past, present and future, they currently had sins that needed forgiveness right then. They had to obey by repenting and being baptized to have remission (forgiveness) of sins. So obedience to the Lord's will in repenting and being baptized is what brings about forgiveness.
John says "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." - 1 Jn 1:7.
So one must walk (obey) in the light if he desires Christ blood to cleanse away his sins.
"IF" we walk in the light, "if" makes it conditional, so "IF" I quit walking in the light, then Jesus blood no longer washes away my sins.

But if you quit walking in the light, doesn't it mean that the light has left and forsaken you...which He promised not to do? If you are in Him and He is in you, how do you walk without Him being in you and with you? I have never understood how to reconcile this from the perspective of those who believe as you do.

[DispensationalJim]

Hello ellis,

Baysidetrey asked you if Christ's blood has cleansed ALL your sins, past, present and future. You answered with "BINGO". But then you say "all of us sin/fall short.
How do you sin if Christ has already forgiven you ALL your sins, past, present and future? Were you born with ALL your sins forgive, [something Calvinism denys, Calvinsim says you are born a sinner].

In the bible there were those that were commanded to repent as in Acts 2:38. Obviously their sins were not all forgiven past, present and future, they currently had sins that needed forgiveness right then. They had to obey by repenting and being baptized to have remission (forgiveness) of sins. So obedience to the Lord's will in repenting and being baptized is what brings about forgiveness.
John says "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." - 1 Jn 1:7.
So one must walk (obey) in the light if he desires Christ blood to cleanse away his sins.
"IF" we walk in the light, "if" makes it conditional, so "IF" I quit walking in the light, then Jesus blood no longer washes away my sins.

Hi, jmac! Haven't talked with you in quite a while.

You are once again using only the verses which were directed at the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to which Jesus and the twelve (especially Peter, James, and John) ministered. (Matt. 15:24; 10:5-7; Gal. 2: 7-9; Acts 11:19; James 1:1, etc.).

I believe Paul is the one who preached the pure message of THE GRACE OF GOD to the Gentiles.

[jmacvols]

But if you quit walking in the light, doesn't it mean that the light has left and forsaken you...which He promised not to do? If you are in Him and He is in you, how do you walk without Him being in you and with you? I have never understood how to reconcile this from the perspective of those who believe as you do.

I can leave the light, the light will not leave me as long as I walk in it.
The verse bases my sins being cleansed upon my walking in the light. If I walk in the light then my sins will be cleansed, if I do not walk in the light then my sins will not be cleansed. You're trying to make the verse say your sins will be cleansed whether you walk in the light or not, and the verse does not give you that option. The verse also does not say it is impossible for one to leave the light.

Rev 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write......

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


How did Christ get pushed outside of His own church and stands knocking asking to be let back in? A: because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

[jmacvols]

Hi, jmac! Haven't talked with you in quite a while.

I'm still alive & kicking. :)

You are once again using only the verses which were directed at the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to which Jesus and the twelve (especially Peter, James, and John) ministered. (Matt. 15:24; 10:5-7; Gal. 2: 7-9; Acts 11:19; James 1:1, etc.).

I believe Paul is the one who preached the pure message of THE GRACE OF GOD to the Gentiles.

Paul went to both Jew and Gentile with the same message Gal 1:23, also Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.. The same gospel that has power to save went to the Jew first and later the Gentile. Eph 2:13-17 Christ took down the partition, He took away the OT that separated Jew and Gentile and now both are under Christ's law, the NT and both are saved by Christ's blood in baptism, Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48. Christ preached the exact same gospel to the Jews and Gentiles both, verse 17.

[DispensationalJim]

I'm still alive & kicking. :)



Paul went to both Jew and Gentile with the same message Gal 1:23, also Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.. The same gospel that has power to save went to the Jew first and later the Gentile. Eph 2:13-17 Christ took down the partition, He took away the OT that separated Jew and Gentile and now both are under Christ's law, the NT and both are saved by Christ's blood in baptism, Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48. Christ preached the exact same gospel to the Jews and Gentiles both, verse 17.

Glad to hear you're still alive, jmac, but I'm not sure I'm glad you're still kicking! :)

BTW, who or what are you still kicking, anyway?? :))

When I speak of Paul's gospel, it is mostly based on this passage:
• 1Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Then, too, Paul does call it "my gospel."
• Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
• Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
• 2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

=========================

I do agree that Paul preached first to the Jews (as he was originally told in Acts 9:15), and then to the Gentiles. But, when did Jesus (or the twelve, for that matter) ever preach Paul's gospel, since it included Jesus's death (FOR OUR SINS), burial, and resurrection?

And, jmac, could you tell me what reference you meant (you said verse 17, but I don't know which passage) in which you think Christ preached the "same" gospel?

Thanks.

[jmacvols]

Glad to hear you're still alive, jmac, but I'm not sure I'm glad you're still kicking! :)

BTW, who or what are you still kicking, anyway?? :))

When I speak of Paul's gospel, it is mostly based on this passage:
• 1Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Yes, this is the same gospel of Rom 1:16 that went to the Jew first, then to the Gentile.

Then, too, Paul does call it "my gospel."
• Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
• Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
• 2Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Paul also refers to it as "the gospel", "our gospel", "gospel of Christ" and "gospel of God', all terms that refer to the one and only gospel.

=========================

I do agree that Paul preached first to the Jews (as he was originally told in Acts 9:15), and then to the Gentiles. But, when did Jesus (or the twelve, for that matter) ever preach Paul's gospel, since it included Jesus's death (FOR OUR SINS), burial, and resurrection?

Paul preached the gospel that went to the Jews first.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What Paul refers to here in 2 Tim 2:8 as "my gospel" is the same thing Peter preached in Acts 2:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.







And, jmac, could you tell me what reference you meant (you said verse 17, but I don't know which passage) in which you think Christ preached the "same" gospel?

Thanks.

Eph 2:17.

[Jacob_Rising]

In My opinion the true gospel was silenced and it was prophecied to return just at the end of the age.

Mathew 24;14 '' And this Truth of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.''

Gospel means truth but I believe the Truth is starting to be preached in our generation for the first time.

The re-judaizing of Jesus.

One of Time magazines top ten ideas currently changing the Earth.

[DispensationalJim]

Yes, this is the same gospel of Rom 1:16 that went to the Jew first, then to the Gentile.

Paul also refers to it as "the gospel", "our gospel", "gospel of Christ" and "gospel of God', all terms that refer to the one and only gospel.

=========================

Paul preached the gospel that went to the Jews first.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What Paul refers to here in 2 Tim 2:8 as "my gospel" is the same thing Peter preached in Acts 2:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


Eph 2:17.

Thanks, jmac, for those thoughts.

However, I was trying to emphasize the "FOR OUR SINS" portion of Paul's gospel, which I don't see in any of the verses you mentioned. My position is that Peter, James, and John preached the exact gospel that Jesus told them to preach, the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM (Matt. 9:35; 10:5-7; 24:14; Mark 1:14. etc.).

Yes, the twelve finally realized that Christ died and rose again -- which they denied repeatedly during His life on earth -- but IMO they did NOT know that CHRIST DIED FOR THEiR SINS even after He was resurrected, and from what I can see, neither Jesus, Peter, James, or John ever taught that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS" as Paul clearly did.

IMO, accepting or believing the fact that "Christ died for our sins" is THE KEY to salvation by faith without works in this present dispensation of the age of GRACE. :)

[DispensationalJim]

In My opinion the true gospel was silenced and it was prophecied to return just at the end of the age.

Mathew 24;14 '' And this Truth of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.''

Gospel means truth but I believe the Truth is starting to be preached in our generation for the first time.

The re-judaizing of Jesus.

One of Time magazines top ten ideas currently changing the Earth.

IMO, Jacob, that sounds like the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM which I just mentioned in my post to jmac.

I would appreciate it if you could give us a web site regarding the "re-judaizing of Jesus." That sounds fascinating, but I admit to complete ignorance of it. :redface:

[hben]

I can leave the light, the light will not leave me as long as I walk in it.
The verse bases my sins being cleansed upon my walking in the light. If I walk in the light then my sins will be cleansed, if I do not walk in the light then my sins will not be cleansed. You're trying to make the verse say your sins will be cleansed whether you walk in the light or not, and the verse does not give you that option. The verse also does not say it is impossible for one to leave the light.

Rev 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write......

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


How did Christ get pushed outside of His own church and stands knocking asking to be let back in? A: because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A church is not a single individual, and a single individual is not a whole church. The Spirit can leave a "so called" church when all of the believers leave whether by death, rapture or just walking out and joining another church. Those left behind may not know Jesus from a hill of beans, but they will still call themselves a church even though the Holy Spirit is long gone. The same is not true with an individual believer, because the Spirit will never leave a child of God.

[Jacob_Rising]

IMO, Jacob, that sounds like the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM which I just mentioned in my post to jmac.

I would appreciate it if you could give us a web site regarding the "re-judaizing of Jesus." That sounds fascinating, but I admit to complete ignorance of it. :redface:
The best websight out their is HebraicRoots.org{ Eddie Chumney} or something.

But I guess you don't live by a big city because I see it all over Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin and all over the place, All over Texas and Texas is a weired place to be going Jewish.

It's like Kenneth Haggi in San Antonio or whatever, He just got into Jewish roots a few years ago.

I'm not really that interested in Kenneth's religion but what he believes is infecting churches in every big city, Messianic churches popping up everywhere shareing their space with Babtists, Methodists and other religions who have jumped on the Messianic Jew bus.

There are Christian churches going to church on Sunday and letting Messianics use their facilities on the Jewish Sabbath.

Best Author out there that I know of is Eddie Chumney, His best book is the 7 festivals of the Messiah and he has a new book out that I havn't read, but we don't even agree completely.

There are Babtist Messianics, Pentacostal Messianics and Messianics of all flavors.

They all share in the re-Judaizing of Jesus.

Messianics don't believe that Jesus came to start a New religion.

Well, I should say, '' Most Messianics''

Messianics generally all come from other Christian faiths and they are still stuck in alot of beliefs, we will all have our differences always.

First and formost, All Jews are the Brethren of the Messiah Whether it was Jesus or the Jewish Messiah to come that Jews believe in.

Christians do not replace any Jew living.

Gentile Christians are adopted under Noahide law and become Brethren with the Jew and should stand behind the Jew.

Gentile Christians are adopted through the promised return of the Ten lost tribes, as a stand in to be a Brother to the Jews and not to take the place of any Jew.

If and when we are ever accepted by the Jews, That will be the return of Ephraim the ten lost tribes.

Ephraim must be found and accepted by the Jews, This is a must.

[hben]

Heb 6:4-8 does prove that salvation can be lost. And since the bible does not contradict itself, all verses would therefore teach that salvation is conditional and can be lost.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take heed lest ye fall.

I have fallen many times, but so did everyone of my children when they were learning to walk. I assure you that not one time did I ever toss any of my children out with the garbage and lock the door behind them never to see them again. What kind of father would I have been to do such a cruel thing? If I had, I would have probably been locked up for child abuse...and deservedly so. And how much greater is God as a father than me a sinner? If I would never cast my children out for falling down, then how could it ever be a possibility for God to do such a cruel thing to His children? It would be totally impossible for the perfect Heavenly Father to disown or cast out one of His children. "Take heed lest ye fall." That is nothing more than wise advice from our loving Heavenly Father, because I know how much it hurts to fall, and so does my Heavenly Father. That is why He warned me not to do it. I have scars on my knees where I scraped the skin off of them more than once.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have fallen many times, but so did everyone of my children when they were learning to walk. I assure you that not one time did I ever toss any of my children out with the garbage and lock the door behind them never to see them again. What kind of father would I have been to do such a cruel thing? .

Have you ever told one of your adult children that they could no longer stay in your house until they straightened up their life, turned away from their bad behaviour, and stopped breaking the law?

[DispensationalJim]

The best websight out their is HebraicRoots.org{ Eddie Chumney} or something.

But I guess you don't live by a big city because I see it all over Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin and all over the place, All over Texas and Texas is a weired place to be going Jewish.

It's like Kenneth Haggi in San Antonio or whatever, He just got into Jewish roots a few years ago.

I'm not really that interested in Kenneth's religion but what he believes is infecting churches in every big city, Messianic churches popping up everywhere shareing their space with Babtists, Methodists and other religions who have jumped on the Messianic Jew bus.

There are Christian churches going to church on Sunday and letting Messianics use their facilities on the Jewish Sabbath.

Best Author out there that I know of is Eddie Chumney, His best book is the 7 festivals of the Messiah and he has a new book out that I havn't read, but we don't even agree completely.

There are Babtist Messianics, Pentacostal Messianics and Messianics of all flavors.

They all share in the re-Judaizing of Jesus.

Messianics don't believe that Jesus came to start a New religion.

Well, I should say, '' Most Messianics''

Messianics generally all come from other Christian faiths and they are still stuck in alot of beliefs, we will all have our differences always.

First and formost, All Jews are the Brethren of the Messiah Whether it was Jesus or the Jewish Messiah to come that Jews believe in.

Christians do not replace any Jew living.

Gentile Christians are adopted under Noahide law and become Brethren with the Jew and should stand behind the Jew.

Gentile Christians are adopted through the promised return of the Ten lost tribes, as a stand in to be a Brother to the Jews and not to take the place of any Jew.

If and when we are ever accepted by the Jews, That will be the return of Ephraim the ten lost tribes.

Ephraim must be found and accepted by the Jews, This is a must.

Thanks much, Jacob. I will check them out. :)

[hben]

Have you ever told one of your adult children that they could no longer stay in your house until they straightened up their life, turned away from their bad behaviour, and stopped breaking the law?

We are talking about salvation from eternal hellfire or the loss of it when our Heavenly Father boots us out of His house, and no I've never sent any of my children to anything remotely close to hell for bad behavior...especially for falling down while learning to walk which is what I was talking about. I've noticed that some people see the word "fall" in scripture and interpret it to mean losing one's salvation, and I disagree with that interpretation 200%. When a child falls, it simply means, "he fall down, go boom" as my children used to say when they were learning to walk. That is such a far cry from a father disowning his adoptive child and allowing him to be condemned to the eternal lake of fire.

[Koushi Shinigami]

We are talking about salvation from eternal hellfire or the loss of it when our Heavenly Father boots us out of His house, and no I've never sent any of my children to anything remotely close to hell for bad behavior...especially for falling down while learning to walk which is what I was talking about. I've noticed that some people see the word "fall" in scripture and interpret it to mean losing one's salvation, and I disagree with that interpretation 200%. When a child falls, it simply means, "he fall down, go boom" as my children used to say when they were learning to walk. That is such a far cry from a father disowning his adoptive child and allowing him to be condemned to the eternal lake of fire.

You're doing it again. Why not simply answer the question?

Have you ever told an adult child of yours that they could not stay in your house till they changed their ways?

[hben]

You're doing it again. Why not simply answer the question?

Have you ever told an adult child of yours that they could not stay in your house till they changed their ways?

And you are doing it again...trying to limit me to how I answer a misleading question in order to get the answer you would like. I am not on a witness stand with no control of how the conversation goes. Good try though...lol. The fact is that I have chastened my children in different ways over the years depending on their ages, levels of maturity and the severity of their disobedience to and/or disrespect for authority. The fact is that they are subject to my chastening, because they are and always will be my children, and I love them. Therefore, to insinuate that I could or would ever send one of my children to an eternal lake of fire as a form of loving chastisement is totally rediculous. That is the part that some tend to ignore in this scenario. For a child of God to lose his salvation would mean that God disowned him and gave him back to Satan which would not be the act of a loving father at all. And neither can it be reasonably compared to the case where I chose to tell my grown child to leave my house until he got his life in order. Chastening of children by a loving parent is not the same thing as eternal condemnation for sin and unbelief.

[jmacvols]

Thanks, jmac, for those thoughts.

However, I was trying to emphasize the "FOR OUR SINS" portion of Paul's gospel, which I don't see in any of the verses you mentioned. My position is that Peter, James, and John preached the exact gospel that Jesus told them to preach, the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM (Matt. 9:35; 10:5-7; 24:14; Mark 1:14. etc.).

Yes, the twelve finally realized that Christ died and rose again -- which they denied repeatedly during His life on earth -- but IMO they did NOT know that CHRIST DIED FOR THEiR SINS even after He was resurrected, and from what I can see, neither Jesus, Peter, James, or John ever taught that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS" as Paul clearly did.

IMO, accepting or believing the fact that "Christ died for our sins" is THE KEY to salvation by faith without works in this present dispensation of the age of GRACE. :)


The apostles did not deny that Christ died for their sins.

Paul preached the same gospel as Peter, Peter preached:

Act 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1Pe 2:24 -Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

[jmacvols]

A church is not a single individual, and a single individual is not a whole church. The Spirit can leave a "so called" church when all of the believers leave whether by death, rapture or just walking out and joining another church. Those left behind may not know Jesus from a hill of beans, but they will still call themselves a church even though the Holy Spirit is long gone. The same is not true with an individual believer, because the Spirit will never leave a child of God.

A single individual does not make up the entire church, yet a single individual is the church. Jesus referred to them as "the church", so those at Laodicea were still part of the church, yet if they did not repent they would be speued out of Christ's mouth. Christ could not spue them out if they were already outside of Christ.

[jmacvols]

I have fallen many times, but so did everyone of my children when they were learning to walk. I assure you that not one time did I ever toss any of my children out with the garbage and lock the door behind them never to see them again. What kind of father would I have been to do such a cruel thing? If I had, I would have probably been locked up for child abuse...and deservedly so. And how much greater is God as a father than me a sinner? If I would never cast my children out for falling down, then how could it ever be a possibility for God to do such a cruel thing to His children? It would be totally impossible for the perfect Heavenly Father to disown or cast out one of His children. "Take heed lest ye fall." That is nothing more than wise advice from our loving Heavenly Father, because I know how much it hurts to fall, and so does my Heavenly Father. That is why He warned me not to do it. I have scars on my knees where I scraped the skin off of them more than once.

Just because you have not ever cast your children out does not mean other parents have not cast their children out. God will cast His children out:

1Cr 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;


1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;


1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


1Cr 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


1Cr 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


1Cr 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.


1Cr 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.


1Cr 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.


1Cr 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.


1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


1Cr 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Under the OT, Israel was God's children and God cast them down and destroyed them and Paul said they are an example for us, written for our admonition so take heed LEST HE FALL.

[hben]

Have you ever told one of your adult children that they could no longer stay in your house until they straightened up their life, turned away from their bad behaviour, and stopped breaking the law?

I've already responded to this, but I had another thought after I had already responded. Your question for me made me think of a question that I'd like to ask you. Have you ever covered one of your adult children with gasoline, and then threw a lit match on him after kicking him out of your house for breaking the law? Just wondering since that seems to be a better comparison to the Heavenly Father condemning His own children to the lake of fire as a form of His loving chastisement. :lol:

[hben]

A single individual does not make up the entire church, yet a single individual is the church. Jesus referred to them as "the church", so those at Laodicea were still part of the church, yet if they did not repent they would be speued out of Christ's mouth. Christ could not spue them out if they were already outside of Christ.

Two points:

1. The Holy Spirit can leave a church simply by the saved who have the Holy Spirit departing, but the Spirit can't leave a single child of God since He is sealed inside the temple of God which is the believer's body. To leave would make Jesus a liar since He promised never to leave or forsake those that are His.

2. To be in Christ would mean that they were in His stomach or more precise His very heart. Spewing anyone out of His mouth would only mean that they were playing religious games with Him, but they were never really in Him at all.

[hben]

Just because you have not ever cast your children out does not mean other parents have not cast their children out. God will cast His children out:

1Cr 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;


1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;


1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


1Cr 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


1Cr 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


1Cr 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.


1Cr 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.


1Cr 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.


1Cr 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.


1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


1Cr 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Under the OT, Israel was God's children and God cast them down and destroyed them and Paul said they are an example for us, written for our admonition so take heed LEST HE FALL.

But you are still using the term fall to mean that someone was saved and fell out of God's securely protected hands, and I have yet to see a verse that said that. There are lessons to learn for every saved child of God throughout the Old Testament, and yet we have never been under the Law of Moses for one single moment. The Hebrews were baptized unto Moses. Are you implying that they were all saved people by being baptized unto Moses who later lost their salvation? I don't see that at all. I don't believe they were saved people at all. Most of them came away from Egypt because of the faith of Moses...not their own faith. They grumbled and complained until they finally got their way which confirmed their unbelief...rather than their belief.

[RayMan]

Two points:

1. The Holy Spirit can leave a church simply by the saved who have the Holy Spirit departing, but the Spirit can't leave a single child of God since He is sealed inside the temple of God which is the believer's body. To leave would make Jesus a liar since He promised never to leave or forsake those that are His.

2. To be in Christ would mean that they were in His stomach or more precise His very heart. Spewing anyone out of His mouth would only mean that they were playing religious games with Him, but they were never really in Him at all.

I'm reminded of a remark I made whilst still a Baptist. Several of us were discussing Eternal Security in a men's group and I volunteered the thought that, "The Pentecostals's believe a person can lose their salvation, while we Baptists say the person was never saved in the first place. Isn't that six of one and a half dozen of the other?" As you may imagine, this remark did not go over well.

[jmacvols]

Two points:

1. The Holy Spirit can leave a church simply by the saved who have the Holy Spirit departing, but the Spirit can't leave a single child of God since He is sealed inside the temple of God which is the believer's body. To leave would make Jesus a liar since He promised never to leave or forsake those that are His.

The bible does not say this, so this must be the gospel according to hben.
If I left Christ, that is ME forsaking Him not Him forsaking me.

2. To be in Christ would mean that they were in His stomach or more precise His very heart. Spewing anyone out of His mouth would only mean that they were playing religious games with Him, but they were never really in Him at all.

Christ referred to them as "the church" so they were not "playing games". They had forsaken Christ by leaving Him yet Christ still wanted to be let back in. Peter speaks of those that have forsaken the right way and are gone astray, 2 Pet 2:15. One has to be in a saved position for them to forsake the right way and go astray. The lost cannot go astray for they already are astray.

Christ also told them to repent, could they still maintain salvation if they refused to repent?

[HokieCougarVandal]

And you are doing it again...trying to limit me to how I answer a misleading question in order to get the answer you would like. I am not on a witness stand with no control of how the conversation goes. Good try though...lol. The fact is that I have chastened my children in different ways over the years depending on their ages, levels of maturity and the severity of their disobedience to and/or disrespect for authority. The fact is that they are subject to my chastening, because they are and always will be my children, and I love them. Therefore, to insinuate that I could or would ever send one of my children to an eternal lake of fire as a form of loving chastisement is totally rediculous. That is the part that some tend to ignore in this scenario. For a child of God to lose his salvation would mean that God disowned him and gave him back to Satan which would not be the act of a loving father at all. And neither can it be reasonably compared to the case where I chose to tell my grown child to leave my house until he got his life in order. Chastening of children by a loving parent is not the same thing as eternal condemnation for sin and unbelief.

The point, though, that Koushi is trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong there Koushi) is not that it's an either or scenario (saved or damned) during one's life.

You came close on the end, hben, to getting Koushi's POV. Chastening is not the same as eternal damnation. However, in using the adult child scenario, will you give them the keys to the family car when you know they'll only drink and drive? We're not saying you'll completely cut them off and throw them into the fire right then and there, but if the child does not learn after many repetitions, what will you do? Keep giving them the keys to the family car? I think not. Does that mean you've given up on your child? No. It means you've only taken steps to reduce the likelihood of them drinking and driving the family car. You can still encourage them to turn their lives around while you keep the keys.

[jmacvols]

But you are still using the term fall to mean that someone was saved and fell out of God's securely protected hands,

This is exactly what Paul is saying.

and I have yet to see a verse that said that.

a case of you don't want to see it?

There are lessons to learn for every saved child of God throughout the Old Testament, and yet we have never been under the Law of Moses for one single moment.

No one has said we are under the OT law. Paul said they are EXAMPLES for us, they fell so can we.

The Hebrews were baptized unto Moses. Are you implying that they were all saved people by being baptized unto Moses who later lost their salvation? I don't see that at all. I don't believe they were saved people at all. Most of them came away from Egypt because of the faith of Moses...not their own faith. They grumbled and complained until they finally got their way which confirmed their unbelief...rather than their belief.


--You say you don't believe they were saved at all, yet Israel was God's chosen, are God's chosen saved or lost? God's chosen are saved unless/until they fall...they fell from being God's chosen...they fell under God's judgment of them. Rom 11, Israel (God's chosen) were the natural branches but they were broken off and Rom 11:21 Paul says "For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee." This is the same as "ye that thinketh ye standeth take heed lest ye fall".
One that is lost is already fallen and cannot be broken off.

--Paul said let him that thinketh he standeth. The word 'standeth' carries the idea of being established, fixed, make firm, stand immovable. So those that "think" their salvation is fixed, unmovable, kept intact, i.e., those that "think" they cannot lose salvation, they should take heed lest they fall.

[hben]

The bible does not say this, so this must be the gospel according to hben.

I can't take credit for the gospel, but thanks for you vote of confidence. :lol:

If I left Christ, that is ME forsaking Him not Him forsaking me.

Tony Bennett said that he left his heart in San Francisco, but we know that one can't possibly leave his heart behind. And yet, that is what you are saying happens when God's children stumble and fall down. I say it is an impossibility once Christ lives inside you.

You mock me and say that this is the gospel according to hben, and you say that the Bible doesn't say this. Ok then, I will humor you. Let's see what the Bible does say.

The Bible says:

Jn:14:17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jn:14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

1Cor:3:16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cor:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2Cor:1:22: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph:4:30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now that we have seen what the Bible says, answer this question for us...how can you leave someone who is in you and with God's Spirit as the official seal and earnest until the day of redemption?

Christ referred to them as "the church" so they were not "playing games". They had forsaken Christ by leaving Him yet Christ still wanted to be let back in. Peter speaks of those that have forsaken the right way and are gone astray, 2 Pet 2:15. One has to be in a saved position for them to forsake the right way and go astray. The lost cannot go astray for they already are astray.

I am now getting a little confused as to who you are talking about. Are you referring to the Hebrews or the Corinthians? Under the New Testament, we can never be the Hebrews, but we can learn from their mistakes, and we know that the purpose of the Law was to lead us to Christ. Now, the Corinthians were supposed to be learning from the lessons of the Old Testament, but did they? They were the most carnal church of the New Testament, but they were still saved children of God though many probably had no rewards to look forward to at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Actually, verse 23 of chapter 10 clarifies everything that comes before it. And what did Paul say in verse 23? He said simply and clearly, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

A child of God can do things that are not good for him, and they may even cause him not to receive rewards later, but they will not cause him to lose his salvation. Why? Because, "we are saved by grace through faith, and that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works..."

Christ also told them to repent, could they still maintain salvation if they refused to repent?

Maintaining their salvation is not within their power to do, but if they had chosen to grieve the Holy Spirit and refused to repent, then they would have received chastisement by the hand of their Heavenly Father.

[Gospel Checker]

I can't take credit for the gospel, but thanks for you vote of confidence. :lol:



Tony Bennett said that he left his heart in San Francisco, but we know that one can't possibly leave his heart behind. And yet, that is what you are saying happens when God's children stumble and fall down. I say it is an impossibility once Christ lives inside you.

You mock me and say that this is the gospel according to hben, and you say that the Bible doesn't say this. Ok then, I will humor you. Let's see what the Bible does say.

The Bible says:

Jn:14:17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jn:14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

1Cor:3:16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cor:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2Cor:1:22: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph:4:30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now that we have seen what the Bible says, answer this question for us...how can you leave someone who is in you and with God's Spirit as the official seal and earnest until the day of redemption?



I am now getting a little confused as to who you are talking about. Are you referring to the Hebrews or the Corinthians? Under the New Testament, we can never be the Hebrews, but we can learn from their mistakes, and we know that the purpose of the Law was to lead us to Christ. Now, the Corinthians were supposed to be learning from the lessons of the Old Testament, but did they? They were the most carnal church of the New Testament, but they were still saved children of God though many probably had no rewards to look forward to at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Actually, verse 23 of chapter 10 clarifies everything that comes before it. And what did Paul say in verse 23? He said simply and clearly, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

A child of God can do things that are not good for him, and they may even cause him not to receive rewards later, but they will not cause him to lose his salvation. Why? Because, "we are saved by grace through faith, and that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works..."



Maintaining their salvation is not within their power to do, but if they had chosen to grieve the Holy Spirit and refused to repent, then they would have received chastisement by the hand of their Heavenly Father.

:clap:Preach, preacher!! There is more to being a christian, living by faith in grace, than simply either being saved or being lost. Not every verse in the bible is about gaining or losing salvation.:mrgreen:

[hben]

:clap:Preach, preacher!! There is more to being a christian, living by faith in grace, than simply either being saved or being lost. Not every verse in the bible is about gaining or losing salvation.:mrgreen:

I love preaching the "good news" message. It's that "bad news" message that I can't go along with. :razz: :cool:

[jmacvols]

I can't take credit for the gospel, but thanks for you vote of confidence. :lol:

Tony Bennett said that he left his heart in San Francisco, but we know that one can't possibly leave his heart behind. And yet, that is what you are saying happens when God's children stumble and fall down. I say it is an impossibility once Christ lives inside you.

You mock me and say that this is the gospel according to hben, and you say that the Bible doesn't say this. Ok then, I will humor you. Let's see what the Bible does say.

The Bible says:

Jn:14:17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jn:14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

1Cor:3:16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cor:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2Cor:1:22: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph:4:30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now that we have seen what the Bible says, answer this question for us...how can you leave someone who is in you and with God's Spirit as the official seal and earnest until the day of redemption?

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

The Holy Spirit, which is the word of God does not dwell in the heart of the unbeliever. As pointed out already, people leave Christ as those in Rev 3, they left Christ standing outside knocking, these people did not have Christ in their hearts, they put Him out.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
So what if one quits obeying? One can live in disobedience and still be saved? still be as you say "indwelled with the Holy Spirit" while living in disobedience?


Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
What if one quits believing, is he still righteous?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
Those that depart still saved, still have an "indwelling of the HS" as you say?

None of the verses you quoted say it is impossible for the HS to leave. The church at Ephesus was sealed with the HS, but in Rev 2 we see that the church at Ephesus had left its first love, had fallen and was was told to repent.







I am now getting a little confused as to who you are talking about. Are you referring to the Hebrews or the Corinthians? Under the New Testament, we can never be the Hebrews, but we can learn from their mistakes, and we know that the purpose of the Law was to lead us to Christ. Now, the Corinthians were supposed to be learning from the lessons of the Old Testament, but did they? They were the most carnal church of the New Testament, but they were still saved children of God though many probably had no rewards to look forward to at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Actually, verse 23 of chapter 10 clarifies everything that comes before it. And what did Paul say in verse 23? He said simply and clearly, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Nothing confusing about it.
Paul said Israel is our example. Israel disobeyed God and fell by God's judgment, therefore when Christians disobey they also can fall under God's judgment. As Israel was cut off, Christians today can be cut off. Paul said nothing about "losing rewards", again this is your spin as you try to spin 1 Pet 3:20,21.
In 1 Cor 10:23, Paul is not saying one can do as they please and it would be lawful. In 1 Cor 6:9ff Paul gave a list of things that can keep a Christian out of the kingdom of God. The Corinthians would argue that God gave them their desires so there was nothing wrong in doing what they choose to satisfy those desires. Paul uses sexual desires to prove their argument wrong. The Corinthians could not indiscriminately have sexual intercourse with anyone at anytime for God has bound the participants together (1Cor6:18), thus adultery/fornication would affect their relationship with God.
In 1 Cor 9:21 Paul says we're under law toward Christ. There is nothing wrong with some things in and of themselves, but they first have to be lawful (under law toward Christ), then a person can choose how to do these things expediently. SO a person is not at liberty to do as they please.

A child of God can do things that are not good for him, and they may even cause him not to receive rewards later, but they will not cause him to lose his salvation. Why? Because, "we are saved by grace through faith, and that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works..."

The bible is full of warning/admonitions about losing salvation, it even gives examples of those that did as Judas.



Maintaining their salvation is not within their power to do, but if they had chosen to grieve the Holy Spirit and refused to repent, then they would have received chastisement by the hand of their Heavenly Father.

One is capable of maintaining their salvation, Jude says to keep yourselves in the love of God.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

In verse 10 "IF" is a conditional word. A Christian has the power to "give diligence to make your election and calling sure".

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'm reminded of a remark I made whilst still a Baptist. Several of us were discussing Eternal Security in a men's group and I volunteered the thought that, "The Pentecostals's believe a person can lose their salvation, while we Baptists say the person was never saved in the first place. Isn't that six of one and a half dozen of the other?" As you may imagine, this remark did not go over well.

Let me guess. Something like this......?


http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/bodysnatcher.jpg
"DIE HERETIC SCUM!!1!1!!!"

[Koushi Shinigami]

The point, though, that Koushi is trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong there Koushi) is not that it's an either or scenario (saved or damned) during one's life.

You came close on the end, hben, to getting Koushi's POV. Chastening is not the same as eternal damnation. However, in using the adult child scenario, will you give them the keys to the family car when you know they'll only drink and drive? We're not saying you'll completely cut them off and throw them into the fire right then and there, but if the child does not learn after many repetitions, what will you do? Keep giving them the keys to the family car? I think not. Does that mean you've given up on your child? No. It means you've only taken steps to reduce the likelihood of them drinking and driving the family car. You can still encourage them to turn their lives around while you keep the keys.


Pretty close. I'm on it right now...

[Koushi Shinigami]

I've already responded to this, but I had another thought after I had already responded. Your question for me made me think of a question that I'd like to ask you. Have you ever covered one of your adult children with gasoline, and then threw a lit match on him after kicking him out of your house for breaking the law? Just wondering since that seems to be a better comparison to the Heavenly Father condemning His own children to the lake of fire as a form of His loving chastisement. :lol:

I'll respond in the manner that you like so much.






I do not have adult children. :razz:

[Koushi Shinigami]

And neither can it be reasonably compared to the case where I chose to tell my grown child to leave my house until he got his life in order.

That's close enough to a 'yes' for me. So, on with the analogy....

Unfortunately, this forum doesn't support columns, so I'll have to seperate points buy "===================".

================================================== ============
Mortal life: A baby is born and is a member of its parent's family.

Spiritual life: A sinner accepts Jesus and is 'reborn' into God's family.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The child makes mistakes, the parents correct him and the child learns.

Spiritual life:The believer makes mistakes (sins), God chastizes him, and the believer learns, repents and tries again.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The child matures into an adult and starts making their own decisions. The parents have less influence and control over their child.

Spiritual life: The believer becomes more secure in their faith. Some might not look to God as often as they should.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The adult child takes up a bad lifestyle the parent's don't approve of. He gets invovled in drugs and crime. He ignores the admonishions of the parents.

Spiritual life: The believer turns back to a life of sin. He ignores God's chastizements.
================================================== ============

Mortal life: The parents try everything they can to intervene. They love their child but he will not listen.

Spiritual life: God continues to reach out to his spiritual child, and that child does not listen.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: Finally, the parents can no longer allow the child to remian in their home. To do so would risk the loss of their house and livelyhood. And it would enable their child to continue in his evil ways. However, while they do force him out on his own, they do not cut off all contact. They continue to reach out to him. If their child should die while in this state, he will never return to their home. The parents will greive and make the proper arrangements. Their child will have chosen his destination.

Spiritual life: As the believer continues to turn away from God, he will not be allowed into Heaven because to do so would endager all that Heaven is. God will continue to reach out to his child, but it's up to the sinner to repent. If the sinner should die unrepentant, God will greive his loss and make the proper arrangements. His child will have chosen the destination.
================================================== ============

Mortal life: If the prodigal son realizes his error, gives up his evil ways and returns home, he will be welcomed with joy.

Spiritual Life: If the sinner repents and returns to God, he will be welcomed with joy.

================================================== ============


It's pretty simple and one doesn't have to worry about if they are "REALLY SAVED" or not. They just examine their own conscience and see if they are serving God or not. If they are not, they repent and try to do better. If they choose not to repent, they are choosing the wrong path.

[baysidetrey]

That's close enough to a 'yes' for me. So, on with the analogy....

Unfortunately, this forum doesn't support columns, so I'll have to seperate points buy "===================".

================================================== ============
Mortal life: A baby is born and is a member of its parent's family.

Spiritual life: A sinner accepts Jesus and is 'reborn' into God's family.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The child makes mistakes, the parents correct him and the child learns.

Spiritual life:The believer makes mistakes (sins), God chastizes him, and the believer learns, repents and tries again.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The child matures into an adult and starts making their own decisions. The parents have less influence and control over their child.

Spiritual life: The believer becomes more secure in their faith. Some might not look to God as often as they should.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The adult child takes up a bad lifestyle the parent's don't approve of. He gets invovled in drugs and crime. He ignores the admonishions of the parents.

Spiritual life: The believer turns back to a life of sin. He ignores God's chastizements.
================================================== ============

Mortal life: The parents try everything they can to intervene. They love their child but he will not listen.

Spiritual life: God continues to reach out to his spiritual child, and that child does not listen.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: Finally, the parents can no longer allow the child to remian in their home. To do so would risk the loss of their house and livelyhood. And it would enable their child to continue in his evil ways. However, while they do force him out on his own, they do not cut off all contact. They continue to reach out to him. If their child should die while in this state, he will never return to their home. The parents will greive and make the proper arrangements. Their child will have chosen his destination.

Spiritual life: As the believer continues to turn away from God, he will not be allowed into Heaven because to do so would endager all that Heaven is. God will continue to reach out to his child, but it's up to the sinner to repent. If the sinner should die unrepentant, God will greive his loss and make the proper arrangements. His child will have chosen the destination.
================================================== ============

Mortal life: If the prodigal son realizes his error, gives up his evil ways and returns home, he will be welcomed with joy.

Spiritual Life: If the sinner repents and returns to God, he will be welcomed with joy.

================================================== ============


It's pretty simple and one doesn't have to worry about if they are "REALLY SAVED" or not. They just examine their own conscience and see if they are serving God or not. If they are not, they repent and try to do better. If they choose not to repent, they are choosing the wrong path.

You mean thet we have to DO something. That is not the American way. Shouldn't we get "walfare" salvation? You know, not that we really need it but that it is easier to say that we are unable to do anything so we will not work and let others work for us?

Reminds me of another story:

Luke 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down .

And:

Matthew 25 :14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country , who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods 15 And unto one he gave five talents , to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh , and reckoneth with them 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying , Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord 22 He also that had received two talents came and said , Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said , Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown , and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid , and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28.Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given , and he shall have abundance : but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[HokieCougarVandal]

That's close enough to a 'yes' for me. So, on with the analogy....

Unfortunately, this forum doesn't support columns, so I'll have to seperate points buy "===================".

================================================== ============
Mortal life: A baby is born and is a member of its parent's family.

Spiritual life: A sinner accepts Jesus and is 'reborn' into God's family.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The child makes mistakes, the parents correct him and the child learns.

Spiritual life:The believer makes mistakes (sins), God chastizes him, and the believer learns, repents and tries again.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The child matures into an adult and starts making their own decisions. The parents have less influence and control over their child.

Spiritual life: The believer becomes more secure in their faith. Some might not look to God as often as they should.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: The adult child takes up a bad lifestyle the parent's don't approve of. He gets invovled in drugs and crime. He ignores the admonishions of the parents.

Spiritual life: The believer turns back to a life of sin. He ignores God's chastizements.
================================================== ============

Mortal life: The parents try everything they can to intervene. They love their child but he will not listen.

Spiritual life: God continues to reach out to his spiritual child, and that child does not listen.

================================================== ============

Mortal life: Finally, the parents can no longer allow the child to remian in their home. To do so would risk the loss of their house and livelyhood. And it would enable their child to continue in his evil ways. However, while they do force him out on his own, they do not cut off all contact. They continue to reach out to him. If their child should die while in this state, he will never return to their home. The parents will greive and make the proper arrangements. Their child will have chosen his destination.

Spiritual life: As the believer continues to turn away from God, he will not be allowed into Heaven because to do so would endager all that Heaven is. God will continue to reach out to his child, but it's up to the sinner to repent. If the sinner should die unrepentant, God will greive his loss and make the proper arrangements. His child will have chosen the destination.
================================================== ============

Mortal life: If the prodigal son realizes his error, gives up his evil ways and returns home, he will be welcomed with joy.

Spiritual Life: If the sinner repents and returns to God, he will be welcomed with joy.

================================================== ============


It's pretty simple and one doesn't have to worry about if they are "REALLY SAVED" or not. They just examine their own conscience and see if they are serving God or not. If they are not, they repent and try to do better. If they choose not to repent, they are choosing the wrong path.

Dats wut I tot.
:clap:

[hillplus]

......

Spiritual life: As the believer continues to turn away from God, he will not be allowed into Heaven because to do so would endanger all that Heaven is. ........


Very important point!

[Koushi Shinigami]

There is still one point that keeps getting overlooked in this comparison or scenario. When I am at home and my kids go out driving the car, I am obviously not with them. But, no matter where a child of God goes or what he does, the Lord is always right there with him and in him.


So what? My kids ignore me all the time when I am in their presence. That's what sin is -- selfcenteredness and ignoring God's guidance.


I have driven drunk before when I was younger, and rather than the Lord leaving me until I got home and sobered up, He is the ONE who brought me safely home. It is in our most undeserving times that we need Him the most, and it is in those times that His grace is more than sufficient.

Hmmmm..... I guess that's one view. The other would be that God was not protecting you, but He was protecting everyone else from you. Your safe arrival home was a side benefit to him protecting everyone else from you.

[Thank you Troops]

I don't believe we can loose our salvation because it was foreknown and predestined.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

Romans 2:28-30 - For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I don't believe we can loose our salvation because it was foreknown and predestined.




It's always a relief to hear that I have no say nor any responsibility in my own salvation. :rolleyes:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Ye of little faith. :snooty:

:question: Who was the focus of the point of view in your drunk driving story?

[Koushi Shinigami]

It is kind of like God originally meant for marriage to be...before the heretical lawmakers in many of these United States of America threw the "No Fault Clause" into the Divorce Laws which gives anyone an excuse to throw the towel in on their marriage without having any Biblical reason at all.

No fault divorce bring marriage back closer to what God originally intended it to be.

[Koushi Shinigami]

The rebellious child of God and the grace of God.

And since you were that rebellious child, it seems that the focal point of your story the way you told it was in fact, yourself. I took the view of the same story as if it were focused on others, in my response.

[Koushi Shinigami]

There are others who preach. God would have found someone...

BTW, Whole lot of "I"s in that post, Preacher.

[jmacvols]

Salvation comes by grace through faith. Faith was counted for righteousness before the Law came, and it still is today. No one has ever been saved through the faith of another person...not even Moses. God showed favor to Israel as a nation, but I don't know of any passage that says every Jew was saved automatically because of His bloodline. Only faith can count for righteousness.

You continue to deflect from the issue.

In the 1 Cor 10:1-12 passage, Paul is showing how Israel fell under God's judgement and their falling is an example to us. If it were impossible for us to fall, then Paul could not use Israel's falling as an example for us. Therefore Paul, by using Israel's falling as example for us, proves that we can fall also.

Paul is not talking about being saved by the faith of another person, Paul is not talking about Jewish bloodlines, this is all deflection on your part to avoid what Paul is actually saying.

[Koushi Shinigami]

God bless you.

[baysidetrey]

I wouldn't deny that He protected everyone, but the bottom line is that He had called me to preach the gospel, and I was the one who was running from the call. If I had been killed in a car accident years ago, then all those who have since been saved after having heard the gospel message through one of my sermons may or may not have been saved. No one can say for sure. I know for a fact that Jesus was in the car with me, and I know for a fact that I preach the gospel today. I also know that I don't deserve the blessing of having lived when others have died. Therefore, it is a testimony to the grace of God that I am alive and preaching God's word...not to mention the blessings of having baptized many over the years who came to know the Lord through messages that God has given me.

No disrespect meant, but are you saying that you:

A. Personally saved people?

B. Had to do something to further the Kingdom of God (even though I disagree with your message I want to know if you felt you had to DO something?)

C. You were personally called by Jesus to preach the gospel the same as Paul?

D. None of the above. (Please explain)

[RayMan]

So you say, and so I disagree. What else is new?

Hey hben,
Let me try and throw a little light on the subject. In the first part of 1 Cor 10 Paul is talking about the PHYSICAL death of Israelis in the wilderness, yes? He warns Christians to note them as an example and then immediately starts teaching on communion.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
1Co 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

He finishes teaching on communion at the end of Chapter 11 and what do we see again: PHYSICAL death. Just as the Israelites suffered PHYSICAL death in the wilderness because of their disobedience so there were those in the Corinthian church who were suffering PHYSICAL death because they were partaking of communion unworthily.



1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


KJV says damnation but it should be translated judged the same as verse 31.


Just because someone says 1 Cor 10 is an example of falling away from salvation doesn't mean that is what the passage is actually teaching.

You can thank me later. :angel:

[RayMan]

Ok, Koushi...have it your way. The devil saved me from destruction, and then called me to preach. Now, that is such a wonderful testimony for the grace of God...don't you think, Koushi? Do you feel better now?

I don't, because everything I just said was total bull****. :rolleyes:

Somebody needs to step away from the keyboard and have a nice tall glass of sweet tea. I'm talking to you hben!

Letting Koushi get you mad, come on. :naughty:

[jmacvols]

So you say, and so I disagree. What else is new?


This doesn't refute what Paul says.

[baysidetrey]

None taken.

No. Only Jesus saves.

I simply surrendered...hollered "calf rope"...gave up to the His call.

Yes, but I was never physically blinded.

Definitely not D, but I could have gone with "All of the above" if it had been given as an option.

So, to see if I am getting what you are saying. Christ gave you His gospel through a vision and enlightened you while you were driving drunk? You have the same revelation to Christs gospel as Paul had? Also, you say "you gave up to His call"? Did that include DOING something?

BTW, I am glad to see you say that Jesus saves, from your post it appeared to me that you were taking the credit.

[RayMan]

You are right, thanks.

Can I also have some homemade coconut pie and/or banana pudding along with some sweet prayer?

Oh man. You had to mention coconut pie. I loves me some coconut cream pie and it is SO not on my list of low carb foods.

[jmacvols]

Hey hben,
Let me try and throw a little light on the subject. In the first part of 1 Cor 10 Paul is talking about the PHYSICAL death of Israelis in the wilderness, yes? He warns Christians to note them as an example and then immediately starts teaching on communion.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
1Co 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

He finishes teaching on communion at the end of Chapter 11 and what do we see again: PHYSICAL death. Just as the Israelites suffered PHYSICAL death in the wilderness because of their disobedience so there were those in the Corinthian church who were suffering PHYSICAL death because they were partaking of communion unworthily.



1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


KJV says damnation but it should be translated judged the same as verse 31.


Just because someone says 1 Cor 10 is an example of falling away from salvation doesn't mean that is what the passage is actually teaching.

You can thank me later. :angel:

So when Israel committed fornication, idolatry, tempted, lusted after evil things and murmured (vs 6-10) they were still "saved"? They were killed physically but they were not dead spiritually even though they committed such acts? So Christians today can do these things and still maintain their salvation?

The OSAS crowd [eternal security for hben] will say if a person did these things they were not truly saved to begin with. Yet Israel did these things, so they were not God's truly chosen to begin with?

If Israel can do these things and maintain their salvation so can we for Paul said they are examples for us.

[RayMan]

So when Israel committed fornication, idolatry, tempted, lusted after evil things and murmured (vs 6-10) they were still "saved"? They were killed physically but they were not dead spiritually even though they committed such acts? So Christians today can do these things and still maintain their salvation?

The OSAS crowd [eternal security for hben] will say if a person did these things they were not truly saved to begin with. Yet Israel did these things, so they were not God's truly chosen to begin with?

If Israel can do these things and maintain their salvation so can we for Paul said they are examples for us.

I have no more insight as to their spiritual condition than you do. I just see that Paul is talking about physical death in 1 Cor 10 and 11.

Just reading the words Paul wrote.


BTW - I am not an Eternal Security kind of guy.

[baysidetrey]

Ok, Koushi...have it your way. The devil saved me from destruction, and then called me to preach. Now, that is such a wonderful testimony for the grace of God...don't you think, Koushi? Do you feel better now?

I don't, because everything I just said was total bull****. :rolleyes:

Is this what you would call the Holy Spirit working through you and giving you what to say in the time of need?

[RayMan]

Is this what you would call the Holy Spirit working through you and giving you what to say in the time of need?


:whistle:

[baysidetrey]

No, this is what happens when a sinner saved by grace loses his patience and calls a spade a spade.

BTW, I am staying away from this tit for tat nit picking thread. Life is too short. There are people who actually are starving for the simple gospel message, and a bunch of religious folks arguing and bickering over the same things does not draw them to Jesus.

Ya'll have fun in this courtroom.

I understand. However, I believe that some may have drawn nearer to Christ by seeing the pros and cons of "eternal security". Thanks for your input and I look forward to someone of your talents to debate the questions again.

[Koushi Shinigami]

No, this is what happens when a sinner saved by grace loses his patience and calls a spade a spade.



I guess I touched a nerve.


Why?

[hben]

2Tm:2:16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

[baysidetrey]

Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

[Koushi Shinigami]

2Tm:2:16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

That's good advice.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.



So much for "The Great Commission".

[baysidetrey]

So much for "The Great Commission".

But if God personally told you to spread the message, wouldn't you be "the great commissioner" as opposed to the "Great Pumpkin"?

[Koushi Shinigami]

:))

[hben]

2Tm:2:14: Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

[baysidetrey]

2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[Semi-Sweet]

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
So what if one quits obeying? One can live in disobedience and still be saved? still be as you say "indwelled with the Holy Spirit" while living in disobedience?

The bible is full of warning/admonitions about losing salvation, it even gives examples of those that did as Judas.

One is capable of maintaining their salvation, Jude says to keep yourselves in the love of God.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:



In our generation, many disciples have turned away with saddened countenance because they have felt that they could never measure up. Many others have continued to bear the burden of a demand religion as they doggedly try to perform all the good works. They, like the young ruler, are never sure that they are doing enough. They lose the joy of their relationship with Christ.

But, praise the Lord, others of us are accepting imputed justification by the grace of God through faith in Christ and are accepting righteousness as a gift. Being free of the oppressive yoke of legal demands, they no longer feel compelled to prove themselves good enough to be saved or to do deeds of philanthropy sufficient to gain His favor. In their sanctified lives, they use His gifts to show their love and gratitude by serving God and their fellow man. It is a life of security, joy, and happiness.

[baysidetrey]

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[Semi-Sweet]

2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I don't know anyone on this forum that professes to be a Christian that have removed themselves from the Gospel . . . . . . . . which is belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and have perverted it do you?

[TaylorW65]

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
We therapists have a saying, The truth shall set you free but first it will make you miserable. :)

[Semi-Sweet]

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Amen! And to avoid any hint that he was speaking of a body of teachings instead of Himself as a person, Jesus assured the disciples, "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed". . . .John 8:36. He is the Truth who frees. A code of law, factual truths, defined doctrines, and rules of conduct have no power to break the bondage of sin, and no complicated system of either of these must be mastered in order for one to gain his forgiveness.

The truth that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. And that we, too, are enabled to know the Truth and to be freed by Him. In his prayer, Jesus said, "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."