HAMAS breaks truce AGAIN - SURPRISE! SURPRISE!

[Streelsh]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1065455.html

Last update - 21:09 19/02/2009
3 Qassam rockets strike western Negev; no one hurt
By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and The Associated Press


Three Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip Thursday evening struck open areas in the western Negev, causing no damage or injuries. The first hit near Sderot and several hours later, two more rockets exploded near Netivot.

Two Qassams were also fired into southern Israel Thursday morning..........................................

[Celtic Pax]

Thats okay, no one was hurt. It's just those wraskly arabs just having fun. No need for Israel to respond or even take them seriously. Or at least that is what the arab apologists would say. Israelis should have jumped about 2000 pounds of HE on selected Hamas targets in respond to remind Hamas that they will not get away with this B.S.

[Free Speech]

This is out of control.

Is this Amnesty Int solution worth a try that calls for a sweeping arms embargo of both trigger happy parties in holy land:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7904929.stm

Could this finally bring peace, fredom and equality there?

[Gengar]

An arms embargo? LMAO

AQ Khan is on the loose, and Iran has enough uranium to make at least one bomb. How do you enforce an arms embargo on them?

[RedStatePaPa]

An arms embargo? LMAO

AQ Khan is on the loose, and Iran has enough uranium to make at least one bomb. How do you enforce an arms embargo on them?

That is going to be some kind of mess.

[Gengar]

That is going to be some kind of mess.

Unfortunately, it already is.

[RedStatePaPa]

Unfortunately, it already is.
Yeah but it's going to be worse.

Once they pass out a nuke to some brainwashed killer with a truck, it's going to be worse.

Iran would never use a missile. That would give us the go ahead to attack them.

[Gengar]

Yeah but it's going to be worse.

Once they pass out a nuke to some brainwashed killer with a truck, it's going to be worse.

Iran would never use a missile. That would give us the go ahead to attack them.

Consider who the current President is...

[rightside]

Consider who the current President is...



Obama is more dangeorus than Malcolm X would be, he's another Farrakhan.

[Jagergeist]

I'm glad I don't live in Israel right now.

[Streelsh]

This is out of control.

Is this Amnesty Int solution worth a try that calls for a sweeping arms embargo of both trigger happy parties in holy land:

Could this finally bring peace, fredom and equality there?

THERE you go with "holy land" again ( I guess I was right when I thought it pains you to say "Israel") Well dude Israel is HERE and NOW and will- I am sure no thanks to you - remain !

As for the nefariously - intended subtefuge by AI it is quite clear that since HAMAS smuggles its weapons - and since Iran is already violating UNSCR 1701 by shipping arms through Syria (with the ROAR of SILENCE from the UN) NO IT"S NOT WORTH A TRY !!!!

[E7ALR]

This is out of control.

Is this Amnesty Int solution worth a try that calls for a sweeping arms embargo of both trigger happy parties in holy land:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7904929.stm

Could this finally bring peace, fredom and equality there?What a great idea! Write some more flowery words down on some expensive stationary, hold a press conference and wave the paper while the signature ink is still wet. I'm sure this will modify the behavior of the people who are ignoring all the previous flowery words, on expensive paper, already wrtiien on this topic. :rolleyes:

[ModerateVoice]

I have two words for Israel: "Disproportionate Response"

[meggers49]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1065455.html

Last update - 21:09 19/02/2009
3 Qassam rockets strike western Negev; no one hurt
By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and The Associated Press


Three Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip Thursday evening struck open areas in the western Negev, causing no damage or injuries. The first hit near Sderot and several hours later, two more rockets exploded near Netivot.

Two Qassams were also fired into southern Israel Thursday morning..........................................

color me stunned.

[Celtic Pax]

As far as I am concerned "Disproportionate Response" is when Hamas or Hezbullah continues to fire rockets, missiles and mortars into Israel and Israel continues it's lack of response. In warfare there is no "Disproportionate Response". Your enemy attacks, they either stop or you wipe them off the face of the earth.

[meggers49]

Thats okay, no one was hurt. It's just those wraskly arabs just having fun. No need for Israel to respond or even take them seriously. Or at least that is what the arab apologists would say. Israelis should have jumped about 2000 pounds of HE on selected Hamas targets in respond to remind Hamas that they will not get away with this B.S.

first.... :)):)) , second, what's HE, and third, when will they stop screwing around with Hamas and wipe them out?? This 'Mr.NiceCountry' crap HAS to stop.

BIBI!! BE A MENSCH!! FLATTEN THEM!

[MrShotShot]

I'm sure Hamas had good reason - perhaps an IDF soldier put too much sugar in his coffee this morning are some other horrid offense.

[meggers49]

This is out of control.

Is this Amnesty Int solution worth a try that calls for a sweeping arms embargo of both trigger happy parties in holy land:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7904929.stm

Could this finally bring peace, fredom and equality there?

no.

[meggers49]

Yeah but it's going to be worse.

Once they pass out a nuke to some brainwashed killer with a truck, it's going to be worse.

Iran would never use a missile. That would give us the go ahead to attack them.

sigh.......that's what they WANT!!! it's all about the Mahdi, they NEED a war.

[Celtic Pax]

first.... :)):)) , second, what's HE, and third, when will they stop screwing around with Hamas and wipe them out?? This 'Mr.NiceCountry' crap HAS to stop.

BIBI!! BE A MENSCH!! FLATTEN THEM! HE = High Explosives:))http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41109000/jpg/_41109918_oil7_ap.jpg

[tenzerra]

The HAMAS mission statement is to drive every jew into the sea so no one is really surprised. It was always matter of when they would fire again as oppossed to "if" they would do it.

[Streelsh]

I have two words for Israel: "Disproportionate Response"

Moderate (sic) Voice: As you see on this board, there are not too many people on this thread who would agree with you. I , for one WOULD listen to you ONLY if you had the stupidity to make the same comments while hunkering down in southern Israel in, say, Sderot, during a HAMAS rocket attack!

[Impenitent]

leave nothing standing in gaza

[Celtic Pax]

Won't happen under this presidents watch. He just pledged $900,000,000 to help rebuild Gaza with no strings attached. Nothing like being rewarded for bad behavior just because the "humanitarian industry" is doing such a fine job of manufacturing "guilt" for the "poor" palestinians so the rest of the world will feel good by helping them.

[Streelsh]

Won't happen under this presidents watch. He just pledged $900,000,000 to help rebuild Gaza with no strings attached. Nothing like being rewarded for bad behavior just because the "humanitarian industry" is doing such a fine job of manufacturing "guilt" for the "poor" palestinians so the rest of the world will feel good by helping them.

I know he's committed TWENTY Million dollars ( which is bad enough) but NINE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS ???? Do you have a link ??

[E7ALR]

Moderate (sic) Voice: As you see on this board, there are not too many people on this thread who would agree with you. I , for one WOULD listen to you ONLY if you had the stupidity to make the same comments while hunkering down in southern Israel in, say, Sderot, during a HAMAS rocket attack!I suspect that you have misread Moderatevoice's intent. He wasn't accusing, he was encouraging.

[Celtic Pax]

I know he's committed TWENTY Million dollars ( which is bad enough) but NINE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS ???? Do you have a link ??Here it is.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090223/pl_nm/us_palestinians_clinton_4

[Streelsh]

I suspect that you have misread Moderatevoice's intent. He wasn't accusing, he was encouraging.

MODERATE: If I misinterpreted, I apologize !

[meggers49]

Moderate (sic) Voice: As you see on this board, there are not too many people on this thread who would agree with you. I , for one WOULD listen to you ONLY if you had the stupidity to make the same comments while hunkering down in southern Israel in, say, Sderot, during a HAMAS rocket attack!

maybe he/she is suggesting Israel USE a disproportionate response and WIPE THEM OUT??

then, yeah, i'm good with that....

[Streelsh]

Here it is.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090223/pl_nm/us_palestinians_clinton_4




Much thanks !!
( I am the co-chair of a group and, hopefully we will have a discussion of how O's administration will represent a change for America's ME policy- and most of these people support Israel and yet voted for O- I'm NOT going to be a favorite on their A-B-C-D Lists but MIGHT be high enough to come in last on their "S" Lists if I make it that high )

[Spock]

And HRC just said the US is giving 900 million to rebuild Gaza; that's treason.
Taxpayers are paying terrorists to rebuild their stronghold so they can continue attacking Israel.
That's not diplomacy where I come from.:rolleyes:

[Celtic Pax]

Much thanks !!
( I am the co-chair of a group and, hopefully we will have a discussion of how O's administration will represent a change for America's ME policy- and most of these people support Israel and yet voted for O- I'm NOT going to be a favorite on their A-B-C-D Lists but MIGHT be high enough to come in last on their "S" Lists if I make it that high )By passing the money through other organizations such as the UN, they hope to side step criticism. BUT, going through the UN will guarantee a significant amount of that money will never get to Gaza and will never be accounted for.

[Streelsh]

And HRC just said the US is giving 900 million to rebuild Gaza; that's treason.
Taxpayers are paying terrorists to rebuild their stronghold so they can continue attacking Israel.
That's not diplomacy where I come from.:rolleyes:

It's NOT treason because "treason" is a specific crime with specific characteristics> HOWEVER it will most assuredly inure to the DETRIMENT of BOTH Israel AND the UNITED STATES !

[BobB]

If I was in charge I would move the Israeli Army into Gaza and level the place.

[CMike11]

Of course Israel should use a proportional response. Rather than go after the terrorists what would be fair is to shoot missiles blindly into the desert too.

[the_fog]

I think you will find that it is Israel that broke the truce.

Its strange people say that Israel has the right to exist but they do not offer the same right to the indigenous semitic people of the region, rather they call for their murder. For example


BobB (http://forums.hannity.com/member.php?u=94845) wrote If I was in charge I would move the Israeli Army into Gaza and level the place.

[CMike11]

Israel has offered numerous times the chance for the arabs in the west bank and gaza to have an autonomous government. Usually it's rejected.

The problem is that the arab leadership doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist and continuously executes terrorists acts, i.e. intentionally attacking civilians.

IMO Israel is foolish would be extremely foolish to negotiate with terrorists and people who support terrorism.

[the_fog]

Israel has offered numerous times the chance for the arabs in the west bank and gaza to have an autonomous government. Usually it's rejected.

The problem is that the arab leadership doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist and continuously executes terrorists acts, i.e. intentionally attacking civilians.

IMO Israel is foolish would be extremely foolish to negotiate with terrorists and people who support terrorism.

Without offense intended it seems you do not know much about the history of Israel or Terrorism. One of the founders of Israel was a man called David Ben-Gurion, he committed many terrorist attacks against innocent Arabs and British soldiers, including the bombing of the King David Hotel. Just to give you a taste this is what he said to a group of Zionist leaders in 1948

There is a need now for strong and brutal reaction. We need to be accurate about timing, place and those we hit. If we accuse a family- we need to harm them without mercy, women and children included. Other wise, this is not an effective reaction… There is no need to distinguish between guilty and not guilty. Are you able to call Ben-Gurion a terrorist?

[CMike11]

Without offense intended it seems you do not know much about the history of Israel or Terrorism. One of the founders of Israel was a man called David Ben-Gurion, he committed many terrorist attacks against innocent Arabs and British soldiers, including the bombing of the King David Hotel. Just to give you a taste this is what he said to a group of Zionist leaders in 1948

Are you able to call Ben-Gurion a terrorist?

Here we go again. You probably mean Begin.

The King David Hotel was the HQ for the British command. It was a legitimate military target. The british were also given three warning that it would be bombed.

Arafat whom got the Nobel Peace Prize was resonsible for the hijacking of planes. He was a terrorist.

[the_fog]

Here we go again. You probably mean Begin.

The King David Hotel was the HQ for the British command. It was a legitimate military target. The british were also given three warning that it would be bombed.

Arafat whom got the Nobel Peace Prize was resonsible for the hijacking of planes. He was a terrorist.

So you consider it a legitimate act?

Would you consider a similar attack carried out by Arabs against the US as legitimate?

Also here is a little more info on the king David hotel bombing:

On July 22nd 1946, the future Prime Minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion, orders another future Prime Minister of Israel Menachem Begin, to carry out a terrorist attack on the King David Hotel in Palestine, to try and drive out the British. As a result of this, 91 people are killed, most of them civilians: 41 Arabs; 28 British; 17 Jews; and 5 others. Around 45 people are injured.
When he was asked by prominent journalist, Russell Warren Howe, if he considered himself the father of terrorism in the Middle East, Menachem Begin proudly replied,
“No, in the entire whole world.”
60 years later on July 22nd, 2006 another future Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu together with many other Israeli government representatives, dedicate a plaque at the site of this terrorist atrocity, which cites the bombers as freedom fighters to be admired by Israel. In response Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”


Furthermore to put the gravity of the attack on the King David Hotel into perspective, it was at the time the biggest death toll as a result of single terrorist action ever and was only surpassed nearly forty years later by the bombing of the United States barracks in Beirut in 1982.


You can obtain more information from here if you wish,


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece



and here



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

[PercyVere]

With any luck, these ongoing tit-for-tat attacks will have the desired effect.

[CMike11]

It wasn't a terrorist act.

As I stated the King David Hotel was the HQ military command for the british. They were given three warnings. They chose to ignore the warnings.

Terrorist act -- intentionally targeting civilians


Non Terrorist act - not intentionally targeting civilians

[the_fog]

With any luck, these ongoing tit-for-tat attacks will have the desired effect.

I would not describe the systematic ethnic cleansing of a people as 'tit-for-tat.

http://kakanda.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/palestine-map-big.jpg

[CMike11]

Yanno...I am getting a wee bit tired of these posts about the poor british whom the the jews attacked. They were military targets.

How about what the british did to the jews? They put them in detention camps.

After a chunk of these jews got out of concentration camps by the nazis the brits had no business putting them in new camps.

http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=8199

We came to learn that the British authorities held Jewish “illegal” immigrants in detention camps on Cyprus from 1946 to 1949. This policy was part of an effort to deter Jewish immigration to Palestine, under British control, as was Cyprus. During that time over 53,000 Jews passed through the barbed wire camps, held against their will, with a quota of only 1,500 per month permitted to leave Cyprus for Palestine.

The Jews considered illegal immigrants by the British were intercepted by British naval forces and turned back from the shores of Palestine and escorted to Cyprus or temporarily imprisoned in Palestine (Atlit) before being deposited in the camps of Cyprus.

The two major camps were Caraolos, north of Famagusta, and in Dekhelia, outside of Larnaca. The compounds stretched for several miles. The story of these camps has been well documented as an episode in the history of the modern state of Israel. Museums and archives in Israel have extensively documented the camps. The United States Museum of Tolerance in California, the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. and the Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York City have devoted exhibitions to this period. Yet, in Cyprus, memories are dim, if not forgotten of this traumatic period.

Some of the elderly do remember but have not shared their experiences and memories with the younger generations. On a hot summer morning last year one 73-year-old farmer who lived in Xylotymbou, the village adjacent to the camps, told us, “I never told my children about this.”

Anecdotes tell of Cypriots working in the camps, smuggling in potatoes to the undernourished internees, assisting in escapes from the camps through underground tunnels. Local Cypriots from laborers to doctors worked in the camps. Translators were British employees. The Jews were prisoners living in overcrowded tents and barracks under harsh conditions with inadequate food supply. The barbed wire camp was also a vibrant community with marriages, illness, deaths, and celebrations. 2,200 children were born in the camps during this period – pregnancy moved the family up on the Palestine waiting list.
But the relationship between Cyprus and the detention camps is more than a momentary historical inconvenience. The tale of the camps is entwined with the independence movements of Cyprus and Israel. They became the training ground for Jewish combatants who would eventually reach Palestine. Cultural workers were sent from Palestine/Israel to teach Hebrew, geography, history and culture of their future homeland and skills that would be valuable upon eventual release. Workshops teaching tailoring, carpentry and other trades were held.

Both Cyprus and Palestine were in the colonial grasp of the United Kingdom and the camps contained thousands of military age men British authorities were particularly concerned with detaining from entry to Palestine/Israel and who were of great interest to those groups in Israel fighting for independence. Groups from the Haganah, the militant Israeli faction, came into the camps to secretly train and drill the interned. There is evidence that by 1948 there was contact between A.K.E.L and members of the Haganah. Haganah personnel were smuggled into the camp to provide military training in the guise of organized sports activities that included drilling, calisthenics, throwing, marching and negotiating an obstacle course. While there is some question as to whether it was A.K.E.L. alone or whether the British identified anyone in Cyprus seeking independence as part of A.K.E.L., there is no question that relationship between Cypriots seeking independence and the activities in the camps did in fact come to the attention of the British administration of Cyprus.

British documents were kept secret as classified documents for many years; secrecy agreements prevented British employees from speaking. After 60 years many of these documents have been declassified and secrecy agreements have expired. Documentation is now available to support the intertwined relationship between the camps and Cypriot history.

In an interview with President Dimitris Christofias in 2005, at that time head of Parliament and General Secretary of A.K.E.L, Mr. Christofias pointed out that A.K.E.L. tried to help the Jews at the time and that the relationship between the camps and A.K.E.L. was part of the history of his party.

Returning to our initial question “Are there any memorials to the Jews held in detention camps by the British on Cyprus?”, we learned that in 1950 a group of former internees, by then citizens of Israel, expressed their gratitude, by funding a childrenʼs playground in Famagusta. The only other commemorative evidence is a plaque dedicated in 1998 in the port of Larnaca. A formal dedication of the plaque made by the Jewish organization Keren Hayesod in June of that year thanked the Cypriots for their friendship and particularly honored Prodromos Papavasilliou of Famagusta who played a major role in aiding the Jews in their flight to Palestine (Mr. Papavasilliou died in 2060. Few, even those working at the Larnaca port, are currently aware of its existence.

For those for whom this chapter of history was part of their personal recollections, the years are passing and most are in their late seventies and eighties. They remain willing to speak to those who know to ask about this time in history, but their story needs to be told and preserved. This is not merely a tale of the elderly and a time long past, but rather it is a memorial and indicator along the path to the independence of Cypriots and Jews.

The collective memory of Cyprus reveals the past and illuminates the future. Gary Gumpert (Ph.D), Wayne State University) is Emeritus Professor of Communication at Queens College of the City University of New York. Susan J. Drucker (JD., St Johnʼs University School of Law) is a Professor in the School of Communication, department of Journalism/Mass Media Studies, Hofstra University. The will be presenting a talk on the Detention Camps at Cyprus House on March 26th at 6:30 p.m.

[PercyVere]

I would not describe the systematic ethnic cleansing of a people as 'tit-for-tat.Mmm .. good point.

[CMike11]

Once again the brits waging war on the jews who just survived the nazis.

So yes, the brits deserved for their HQ command to be bombed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Conflict_with_Zionism

Jews escaping post-war anti-Semitic attacks in Eastern Europe were refused support on the grounds that they were not displaced by the war.[7]

The British cut food supplies to Jewish concentration camp survivors in their care to prevent them assisting the fleeing Jews.[8]

In order to prevent Jewish illegal migrants reaching Palestine a naval blockade was established to stop boats carrying illegal migrants and there was extensive intelligence gathering and diplomatic pressure on countries through which the migrants were passing or from whose ports the ships were coming.


The British begin holding illegal Jewish immigrants in prison camps on Cyprus
In June 1946, on "Black Sabbath", the British confiscated the Jewish Agency headquarters in Jerusalem and arrested the leadership of the Jewish Agency, holding them without trial. [4] The leadership of the Haganah now gave Jewish terror groups permission to attack British Army headquarters in Palestine.[13]

On 4 July 1946 46 Jews were lynched in Kielce, Poland, greatly increasing the flow of Jews from Eastern Europe. Although this incident received the most publicity, it was just one of many[14].

On 22 July 1946 the headquarters of the British army in Palestine (the King David Hotel) was blown up by the Irgun, killing over 100 people.

The following week four ships carrying 6,000 illegal immigrants arrived in Haifa, completely overflowing the temporary prison for illegal migrants at Atlit.[15]

On 7 August 1946 there were 2,232 on board a ship at Haifa waiting for a decision on their future, an additional 2,500 due to arrive and unknown thousands expected to follow. The British government decided to intern all illegal immigrants on Cyprus.

In October 1946, in fulfillment of the recommendation of the Anglo-American Committee, Britain decided to allow a further 96,000 Jews into Palestine at a rate of 1,500 a month. Half this monthly quota was allocated to Jews in the prisons on Cyprus. Granting the prisoners entrance permits reduced the likelihood of an eruption on Cyprus, by Cypriots fearful of a large Jewish presence on their soil, or by the Jewish prisoners and, it was hoped, eased pressure in Palestine. [16]

The Cypriot Communist Party, which dominated the island’s political life, opposed British rule and supported Greek demands for union. Cyprus was the only place in the Middle East where Britain had full sovereignty and it was considered of great strategic importance to the British Empire. Lord Winster, the Governor of Cyprus demanded guarantees that the Jews would leave. He feared that Cyprus could become a new Palestine. [17]

The main alternative to Cyprus was Kenya, however Kenya was taking the 251 suspected Jewish terrorists, held without trial, from the British in Eritrea [4]. This was considered more important as these prisoners were “dangerous killers”. Kenya’s governor was opposed to the creation of large camps in his territory as he feared that Jewish immigrants would never leave. He considered them to be “the dregs of the population of Europe”. [18]

Camp costs were paid by the Government of Palestine. The Cyprus camps cost 1.2 million pounds to construct. In mid 1947 Secretary of State for the Colonies, Creech-Jones, estimated the monthly maintenance of the camps at 45,000 pounds.[19]

[CMike11]

To those jews that resisted the british at that time :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/mandate.html

No Refuge From the Holocaust
The gates of Palestine remained closed for the duration of the war, stranding hundreds of thousands of Jews in Europe, many of whom became victims of Hitler’s Final Solution. After the war, the British refused to allow the survivors of the Nazi nightmare to find sanctuary in Palestine. On June 6, 1946, President Truman urged the British government to relieve the suffering of the Jews confined to displaced persons camps in Europe by immediately accepting 100,000 Jewish immigrants. Britain's Foreign Minister, Ernest Bevin, replied sarcastically that the United States wanted displaced Jews to immigrate to Palestine “because they did not want too many of them in New York.”10

Some Jews were able to reach Palestine, many by way of dilapidated ships that members of the Jewish resistance organizations smuggled in. Between August 1945 and the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948, 65 “illegal ” immigrant ships, carrying 69,878 people, arrived from European shores. In August 1946, however, the British began to intern those they caught in camps in Cyprus. Approximately 50,000 people were detained in the camps, 28,000 of whom were still imprisoned when Israel declared independence.11

[CMike11]

I would not describe the systematic ethnic cleansing of a people as 'tit-for-tat.

]


I guess those five arab countries shouldn't have tried to invade Israel on the day of its indepenence for the purpose of destroying it, huh?

[the_fog]

It wasn't a terrorist act.

As I stated the King David Hotel was the HQ military command for the british. They were given three warnings. They chose to ignore the warnings.

Terrorist act -- intentionally targeting civilians


Non Terrorist act - not intentionally targeting civilians

I disagree with your claim that the British were warned before hand. And even if they were "“this does not absolve those who planted the bomb from responsibility for the deaths”



Non Terrorist act - not intentionally targeting civilians
Therefore according to your definition of a terrorist act do you consider the bombing of the USS Cole (2000) a legitimate act of war, as the target was solely a military one?


Terrorist act -- intentionally targeting civilians
Therefore according to your definition of a terrorist act do you consider Winston Churchill to be a terrorist because the targets of his bombing campaigns over Hamburg and Dresden were civilians?

[PercyVere]

I guess those five arab countries shouldn't have tried to invade Israel on the day of its indepenence for the purpose of destroying it, huh?There are several things wrong here.
Why is it OK to collectively punish the Palestinians for the acts of foreign nations?
Why is it OK to steal land from Palestinians? This is still going on today, in further land grabs for settler scum in the West Bank?
Since when is it OK to move populations into land seized in war, regardless of who started it?

[CMike11]

What do you call putting jews in new detention camps? Was that terrorism or just barbarity?

Perhaps the brits shouldn't have waged war on the jews.

And the USS Cole is a military target. However, it was done by a terrorist group whom also attacked the WTC. The group itself was a terrorist group because it intentionally targeted civilians, however, the Cole was a military target.

I applaud those jews that resisted the british tyranny.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/King_David.html


The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel.

A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.

Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews."1 As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.2

[PercyVere]

It wasn't a terrorist act.

As I stated the King David Hotel was the HQ military command for the british. They were given three warnings. They chose to ignore the warnings.They gave what, a 10 minute warning ... the IRA are much more humane than your terrorists in that case ... they gave a 40 min warning before the Omagh bombing.

[CMike11]

There are several things wrong here.
Why is it OK to collectively punish the Palestinians for the acts of foreign nations?
Why is it OK to steal land from Palestinians? This is still going on today, in further land grabs for settler scum in the West Bank?
Since when is it OK to move populations into land seized in war, regardless of who started it?


The West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel. Jews have a right to live anywhere they want in Israel. It's THEIR country.

It's the terrorists who use their brethren as human shields. Launching attacks surrounded by civilians and then claiming foul when civilians are injured.

The injuries and deaths of the "palestinian" terrorists are the fault of the terrorist. Being the cowardly schum and pieces of slime that they are they hide among children and other civilians.

Israel hasn't stole anything. Originally they bought the land. Then your country wants to invade country for the purpose of destroying it, don't come crying when your country loses some of its own land.

What Israel should have done is immediately move those arabs back to their actual countries. That is why there is still this problem.

[CMike11]

They gave what, a 10 minute warning ... the IRA are much more humane than your terrorists in that case ... they gave a 40 min warning before the Omagh bombing.

They were given three warnings that were ignored.

It was not a terrorist act.

The King David Hotel was the military command for the british.

The british were putting jews in detention camps and cut off their food.

I certainly don't feel sorry for the british.

They started the war againt the jews.

They probably shouldn't have ignored the warnings.

And they had no humane right to put jews in camps.

[PercyVere]

The West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel.Incorrect

Jews have a right to live anywhere they want in Israel. It's THEIR country.Agreed

It's the terrorists who use their brethren as human shields. Launching attacks surrounded by civilians and then claiming foul when civilians are injured.Have you any concept of just how small and densely populated Gaza is?

Israel hasn't stole anything. Originally they bought the land.:)):)):))

What Israel should have done is immediately move those arabs back to their actual countries. That is why there is still this problem.Agreed. Only thing is, the Palestinians are natives of Israel and the Territories. They were terrorised out of their lands during the formation of Israel. Foreign Jews with no real link to Israel are allowed to 'return', but the natives are not allowed home.

[meggers49]

I think you will find that it is Israel that broke the truce.

Its strange people say that Israel has the right to exist but they do not offer the same right to the indigenous semitic people of the region, rather they call for their murder. For example


BobB (http://forums.hannity.com/member.php?u=94845) wrote

I'm sorry........Jews ARE indigenous semitic people of the region. They aren't calling for murder, the palestinians are calling for the eradication of the Jews and Israel is defending themselves. IF the palestinians can't behave, Israel has the right to see to it that their safety is ensured.

Oh, and BTW, I feel the same for the people in the US who live along the Mexican border.

[PercyVere]

They were given three warnings that were ignored.

It was not a terrorist act.Warnings don't make a terrorist act OK, especially when so many innocent people end up being murdered. Especially when the warnings are given waaayyyy too late.

In your eyes, does the warning given by the IRA before the Omagh bombing make the attack pretty much OK? And they did start the war with the Irish after all.

[PercyVere]

I'm sorry........Jews ARE indigenous semitic people of the region. They aren't calling for murder, the palestinians are calling for the eradication of the Jews and Israel is defending themselves. IF the palestinians can't behave, Israel has the right to see to it that their safety is ensured.I'm curious ... do Palestinians have any rights at all? And does Israel have to 'behave', or is that just the Palestinians?

[meggers49]

So you consider it a legitimate act?

Would you consider a similar attack carried out by Arabs against the US as legitimate?

Also here is a little more info on the king David hotel bombing:

On July 22nd 1946, the future Prime Minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion, orders another future Prime Minister of Israel Menachem Begin, to carry out a terrorist attack on the King David Hotel in Palestine, to try and drive out the British. As a result of this, 91 people are killed, most of them civilians: 41 Arabs; 28 British; 17 Jews; and 5 others. Around 45 people are injured.
When he was asked by prominent journalist, Russell Warren Howe, if he considered himself the father of terrorism in the Middle East, Menachem Begin proudly replied,
“No, in the entire whole world.”
60 years later on July 22nd, 2006 another future Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu together with many other Israeli government representatives, dedicate a plaque at the site of this terrorist atrocity, which cites the bombers as freedom fighters to be admired by Israel. In response Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”


Furthermore to put the gravity of the attack on the King David Hotel into perspective, it was at the time the biggest death toll as a result of single terrorist action ever and was only surpassed nearly forty years later by the bombing of the United States barracks in Beirut in 1982.


You can obtain more information from here if you wish,


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece



and here



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

First of all, the Hotel was a miltary base for the British, they were asked to leave multiple times and were told what was going to happen. They ignored the warning. The deaths were on them.

Secondly. WIKIPEDIA as a source? bye.

[the_fog]

And the USS Cole is a military target. However, it was done by a terrorist group whom also attacked the WTC. The group itself was a terrorist group because it intentionally targeted civilians, however, the Cole was a military target.


Therefore, according to your definition was it a legitimate act of war?

Furthermore the Irgun was a terrorist group that systematically targeted civilians. One of their acts of terrorism was the Deir Yassin massacre, in the words of Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian;DeirYassin
The systematic nature of Plan Dalet is manifested in Deir Yassin, a pastoral and cordial village that had reached a non-aggression pact with the Hagana in Jerusalem, but was doomed to be wiped out because it was within the areas designated in Plan Dalet to be cleansed. Because of the prior agree¬ment they had signed with the village, the Hagana decided to send the Irgun and Stern Gang troops, so as to absolve themselves from any official accountability. In the subsequent cleansings of 'friendly' villages even this ploy would no longer be deemed necessary.
On 9 April 1948, Jewish forces occupied the village of Deir Yassin. It lay on a hill west of Jerusalem, eight hundred metres above sea level and close to the Jewish neighbourhood of Givat Shaul. The old village school serves today as a mental hospital for the western Jewish neighbourhood that expanded over the destroyed village.
As they burst into the village, the Jewish soldiers sprayed the houses with machine-gun fire, killing many of the inhabitants. The remaining vil¬lagers were then gathered in one place and murdered in cold blood, their bodies abused while a number of the women were raped and then killed.6
Fahim Zaydan, who was twelve years old at the time, recalled how he saw his family murdered in front of his eyes:
They took us out one after the other; shot an old man and when one of his daughters cried, she was shot too. Then they called my brother Muhammad, and shot him in front us, and when my mother yelled, bending over him - carrying my little sister Hudra in her hands, still breastfeeding her - they shot her too.7
Zaydan himself was shot, too, while standing in a row of children the Jewish soldiers had lined up against a wall, which they had then sprayed with bullets, 'just for the fun of it', before they left. He was lucky to survive his wounds.
Recent research has brought down the accepted number of people mas¬sacred at Deir Yassin from 170 to ninety-three. Of course, apart from the victims of the massacre itself, dozens of others were killed in the fighting, and hence were not included in the official list of victims. However, as the Jewish forces regarded any Palestinian village as an enemy military base, the distinction between massacring people and killing them 'in battle' was slight. Qne only has to be told that thirty babies weree among the slaughtered in Deir Yassin to understand why the whole quantitative exercise –which the Israelis repeated as recently as 2002 in the massacre of Jenin is insignificant. At the time, the Jewish leadership proudly announced a high number of victims so as to make Deir Yassin the epicenter of the catastrophe - a warning to all Palestinians that a similar fate awaited them if they refused to abandon their homes and take flight.



If you support the Irgun you support terrorism as defined by yourself.

[meggers49]

I would not describe the systematic ethnic cleansing of a people as 'tit-for-tat.

http://kakanda.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/palestine-map-big.jpg

Lovely pictures. Does the Six Day War mean anything to you??

Israel won the land in battle after they were attacked. If the Arabs didn't want to lose territory, they should have stayed home.

Also, the palestinians have received back territory on more than one occasion. They just seem to have a problem keeping to themselves after they get it and start attacking Israel again (see OP) and Israel doesn't appreciate getting themselves bombed for cooperating with treaties, so they retaliate and the Palestinians lose their territory again.

Why is this Israel's problem and not the behavioral issue of the Palestinians?

[the_fog]

Does the Six Day War mean anything to you??



Who started the 'six day war'?

Also do you support the Irgun, and the bombing of the King David Hotel?

[PercyVere]

Secondly. WIKIPEDIA as a source? bye.Wikipedia is an excellent source ... those little numbered links on the Wiki article ... they're citations.
Go ahead and vandalise the King David bombing article and see how you get on?

The Internet needs a new law.
Percy's Law:
As a forum discussion grows longer, the probability of a criticism of Wikipeda accuracy approaches one

[meggers49]

They were given three warnings that were ignored.

It was not a terrorist act.

The King David Hotel was the military command for the british.

The british were putting jews in detention camps and cut off their food.

I certainly don't feel sorry for the british.

They started the war againt the jews.

They probably shouldn't have ignored the warnings.

And they had no humane right to put jews in camps.


Maybe you should put this on a Mobius loop and just say "this is a recording" so you can just have it repeated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER and and and ....... :wall::wall::wall:

there seems to be a reading comprehension deficit and people aren't GETTING it.

[PercyVere]

Israel won the land in battle after they were attacked.Doesn't matter - you can't move populations into lands grabbed in war.

[meggers49]

Who started the 'six day war'?

Also do you support the Irgun, and the bombing of the King David Hotel?

The Six Day War was started by the Arab nations who were planning the attack that Israel pre-emptively aborted. That their plans were found out and Israel got the jump on them doesn't mean that Israel started the war. Which I know is what you are heading for.

My depth of knowledge regarding the Irgun is limited, I admit that, but the bombing of the Kind David was acceptable as it was a military base

[meggers49]

Doesn't matter - you can't move populations into lands grabbed in war.

That's absurd. The boundries of countries all over the world are changed constantly by territories gained and lost due to war, with the movement of citizens to those places.

[the_fog]

My depth of knowledge regarding the Irgun is limited, I admit that, but the bombing of the Kind David was acceptable as it was a military base

The Irgun were one of the terrorist groups that helped establish Israel, I posted an example of their actions below.

If you consider the bombing of the King David Hotel as acceptable do you consider the bombing of the USS Cole as acceptable becuase that was a military target?

That's absurd. The boundries of countries all over the world are changed constantly by territories gained and lost due to war, with the movement of citizens to those places.Boundaries change but when the indigenous people are forced from their land that is called ethnic cleansing.

[PercyVere]

Maybe you should put this on a Mobius loop and just say "this is a recording" so you can just have it repeated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER and and and ......Why a Mobius strip? This would cause the tape to have the wrong side facing the heads on every second pass? And it would greatly increase the chance of ravelling surely. Needless complexity when a simple loop would do.
Also, this is the digital age ... move with the times.

[the_fog]

Mistake post please delete

[PercyVere]

That's absurd. The boundries of countries all over the world are changed constantly by territories gained and lost due to war, with the movement of citizens to those places.That's funny ... at Nuremberg the Nazis were deemed to have commited a war crime and a crime against humanity with their own population transfers.

[PercyVere]

The Six Day War was started by the Arab nations who were planning the attack that Israel pre-emptively aborted.:)):)) ... you are starting to sound a little desperate

[CMike11]

The Irgun were one of the terrorist groups that helped establish Israel, I posted an example of their actions below.

If you consider the bombing of the King David Hotel as acceptable do you consider the bombing of the USS Cole as acceptable becuase that was a military target?

Boundaries change but when the indigenous people are forced from their land that is called ethnic cleansing.

No it's called a winning a war and the result of new boundaires.

Once again the Cole was a military target. However, it was done by a terrorist group. Why is it a terrorist group? Because it's a group that systematically targets civilians for attack.

The Brits started waging war on the jews by putting them in detention camps and doing mass arrests.

The hotel was a legitimate military target.

Would putting whole groups of jews in camps because of their religion be considered a war crime?

[CMike11]

The difference is that the arab terrorist groups bomb pizza stores and other restaurtants.

They shoot at school buses.

The Irgun bombed a military target.

Do you truely not see the difference?

[CMike11]

Doesn't matter - you can't move populations into lands grabbed in war.

Sure you can.

[CMike11]

The Brits acted very cruely against the jews.

As far as the warnings...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/King_David.html


For decades the British denied they had been warned. In 1979, however, a member of the British Parliament introduced evidence that the Irgun had indeed issued the warning. He offered the testimony of a British officer who heard other officers in the King David Hotel bar joking about a Zionist threat to the headquarters. The officer who overheard the conversation immediately left the hotel and survived.4



Notes

1. Menachem Begin, The Revolt, (NY: Nash Publishing, 1977), p. 224.

2. J. Bowyer Bell, Terror Out Of Zion, (NY: St. Martin's Press), p. 172.

3. Anne Sinai and I. Robert Sinai, Israel and the Arabs: Prelude to the Jewish State, (NY: Facts on File, 1972), p. 83.

4. Benjamin Netanyahu, ed., "International Terrorism: Challenge And Response," Proceedings of the Jerusalem Conference on International Terrorism, July 2*5, 1979, (Jerusalem: The Jonathan Institute, 1980), p. 45.

[PercyVere]

The difference is that the arab terrorist groups bomb pizza stores and other restaurtants.

They shoot at school buses.

The Irgun bombed a military target.

Do you truely not see the difference?You make this too easy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

[the_fog]

The difference is that the arab terrorist groups bomb pizza stores and other restaurtants.

They shoot at school buses.

The Irgun bombed a military target.

Do you truely not see the difference?

CMike11, it seems you are going down the dark road of denial. The Irgun massacred innocent people for their political objectives, that is a historical fact. Perhaps you did not read the below text. Also terrorism is an act, meaning whoever does it for what ever reason it is terrorism.

Furthermore you have not fully answered my question, is the act of attacking the USS Cole according to your definition of terrorism a legitimate act of war?

DeirYassin
The systematic nature of Plan Dalet is manifested in Deir Yassin, a pastoral and cordial village that had reached a non-aggression pact with the Hagana in Jerusalem, but was doomed to be wiped out because it was within the areas designated in Plan Dalet to be cleansed. Because of the prior agree¬ment they had signed with the village, the Hagana decided to send the Irgun and Stern Gang troops, so as to absolve themselves from any official accountability. In the subsequent cleansings of 'friendly' villages even this ploy would no longer be deemed necessary.
On 9 April 1948, Jewish forces occupied the village of Deir Yassin. It lay on a hill west of Jerusalem, eight hundred metres above sea level and close to the Jewish neighbourhood of Givat Shaul. The old village school serves today as a mental hospital for the western Jewish neighbourhood that expanded over the destroyed village.
As they burst into the village, the Jewish soldiers sprayed the houses with machine-gun fire, killing many of the inhabitants. The remaining vil¬lagers were then gathered in one place and murdered in cold blood, their bodies abused while a number of the women were raped and then killed.6
Fahim Zaydan, who was twelve years old at the time, recalled how he saw his family murdered in front of his eyes:
They took us out one after the other; shot an old man and when one of his daughters cried, she was shot too. Then they called my brother Muhammad, and shot him in front us, and when my mother yelled, bending over him - carrying my little sister Hudra in her hands, still breastfeeding her - they shot her too.7
Zaydan himself was shot, too, while standing in a row of children the Jewish soldiers had lined up against a wall, which they had then sprayed with bullets, 'just for the fun of it', before they left. He was lucky to survive his wounds.
Recent research has brought down the accepted number of people mas¬sacred at Deir Yassin from 170 to ninety-three. Of course, apart from the victims of the massacre itself, dozens of others were killed in the fighting, and hence were not included in the official list of victims. However, as the Jewish forces regarded any Palestinian village as an enemy military base, the distinction between massacring people and killing them 'in battle' was slight. Qne only has to be told that thirty babies weree among the slaughtered in Deir Yassin to understand why the whole quantitative exercise –which the Israelis repeated as recently as 2002 in the massacre of Jenin is insignificant. At the time, the Jewish leadership proudly announced a high number of victims so as to make Deir Yassin the epicenter of the catastrophe - a warning to all Palestinians that a similar fate awaited them if they refused to abandon their homes and take flight.Another point I would like to make; what did the Palestinians who were the indigenous people of Palestine do to deserve being expelled from their homes by the Zionist movements that deiced Palestine belonged to them?

[CMike11]

It's amazing to me that this anti-Israel crowd has to go back over 60 years to make this crap up.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html




Deir Yassin
By Mitchell Bard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The United Nations resolved that Jerusalem would be an international city apart from the Arab and Jewish states demarcated in the partition resolution. The 150,000 Jewish inhabitants were under constant military pressure; the 2,500 Jews living in the Old City were victims of an Arab blockade that lasted five months before they were forced to surrender on May 29, 1948. Prior to the surrender, and throughout the siege on Jerusalem, Jewish convoys tried to reach the city to alleviate the food shortage, which, by April, had become critical.

Meanwhile, the Arab forces, which had engaged in sporadic and unorganized ambushes since December 1947, began to make an organized attempt to cut off the highway linking Tel Aviv with Jerusalem - the city's only supply route. The Arabs controlled several strategic vantage points, which overlooked the highway and enabled them to fire on the convoys trying to reach the beleaguered city with supplies. Deir Yassin was situated on a hill, about 2600 feet high, which commanded a wide view of the vicinity and was located less than a mile from the suburbs of Jerusalem. The population was 750.1

On April 6, Operation Nachshon was launched to open the road to Jerusalem. The village of Deir Yassin was included on the list of Arab villages to be occupied as part of the operation. The following day Haganah commander David Shaltiel wrote to the leaders of the Lehi and Irgun:

I learn that you plan an attack on Deir Yassin. I wish to point out that the capture of Deir Yassin and its holding are one stage in our general plan. I have no objection to your carrying out the operation provided you are able to hold the village. If you are unable to do so I warn you against blowing up the village which will result in its inhabitants abandoning it and its ruins and deserted houses being occupied by foreign forces....Furthermore, if foreign forces took over, this would upset our general plan for establishing an airfield.2

The Irgun decided to attack Deir Yassin on April 9, while the Haganah was still engaged in the battle for Kastel. This was the first major Irgun attack against the Arabs. Previously, the Irgun and Lehi had concentrated their attacks against the British.

No Easy Battle
According to Irgun leader Menachem Begin, the assault was carried out by 100 members of that organization; other authors say it was as many as 132 men from both groups. Begin stated that a small open truck fitted with a loudspeaker was driven to the entrance of the village before the attack and broadcast a warning to civilians to evacuate the area, which many did.3 Most writers say the warning was never issued because the truck with the loudspeaker rolled into a ditch before it could broadcast the warning.4 One of the fighters said, the ditch was filled in and the truck continued on to the village. "One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don't know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect."5

Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the attackers. One fighter described his experience:

My unit stormed and passed the first row of houses. I was among the first to enter the village. There were a few other guys with me, each encouraging the other to advance. At the top of the street I saw a man in khaki clothing running ahead. I thought he was one of ours. I ran after him and told him, "advance to that house." Suddenly he turned around, aimed his rifle and shot. He was an Iraqi soldier. I was hit in the foot.6

The battle was ferocious and took several hours. The Irgun suffered 41 casualties, including four dead.Counting the Dead
Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report. “Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants [were killed], while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.”7 A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there.8 Other Arab sources have subsequently suggested the number may have been even lower.9

In fact, the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left unharmed. For example, at 9:30 A.M., about five hours after the fighting started, the Lehi evacuated 40 old men, women and children on trucks and took them to a base in Sheikh Bader. Later, the Arabs were taken to East Jerusalem. Starting at 2:00 P.M., residents were taken out of the village. The trucks passed through the Orthodox neighborhood of Mea Shearim after the Sabbath had begun, so the neighborhood people cursed and spit at them, not because they were Arabs, but because the vehicles were desecrating the Sabbath. Seeing the Arabs in the hands of Jews also helped raise the morale of the people of Jerusalem who were despondent from the setbacks in the fighting to that point.10 Another source says 70 women and children were taken away and turned over to the British.11 If the intent was to massacre the inhabitants, no one would have been evacuated.


The village after the attack

After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the Jewish troops, some Jews killed Arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately. None of the sources specify how many women and children were killed (the Times report said it was about half the victims; their original casualty figure came from the Irgun source), but there were some among the casualties. Any intentional murder of children or women is completely unjustified. At least some of the women who were killed, however, became targets because of men who tried to disguise themselves as women. The Irgun commander reported, for example, that the attackers "found men dressed as women and therefore they began to shoot at women who did not hasten to go down to the place designated for gathering the prisoners."12 Another story was told by a member of the Haganah who overheard a group of Arabs from Deir Yassin who said "the Jews found out that Arab warriors had disguised themselves as women. The Jews searched the women too. One of the people being checked realized he had been caught, took out a pistol and shot the Jewish commander. His friends, crazed with anger, shot in all directions and killed the Arabs in the area."13

Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."14

[CMike11]

CMike11, it seems you are going down the dark road of denial. The Irgun massacred innocent people for their political objectives, that is a historical fact. Perhaps you did not read the below text. Also terrorism is an act, meaning whoever does it for what ever reason it is terrorism.

Furthermore you have not fully answered my question, is the act of attacking the USS Cole according to your definition of terrorism a legitimate act of war?

Another point I would like to make; what did the Palestinians who were the indigenous people of Palestine do to deserve being expelled from their homes by the Zionist movements that deiced Palestine belonged to them?


What you state is a historical fiction full of falsehoods.

1) The King David Hotel attack was a legitimate military target as it was the Britsh HQ command. Yanno...it's funny when people on your side mention the hotel you never mention that it was the military command for the britsh.

Why is that? Just curious.

2) Deir Yassin, was not a massacre. It was a fierce protracted fight. Deir Yassin was needed to open the road to Jerusalem. The jews helped arabs evacuate if they wanted to.


Yet people on your side neglect to give these facts either.

Why is that?

If you are so sure if your position, why do you leave out key critical points in your supposed arguements?

[the_fog]

Link?

If you mean a reference to the text I quoted it is a from a book, I am not sure if it is on the Internet.

The Harvard reference is:

Pappe I. (2007) The ethnic cleansing of the Palestine. Oxford: One world Oxford

The book can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235606089&sr=8-1

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ITRx5W-CL._SS500_.jpg


EDIT:

I notice you have changed your last post, which renders my above post irrelevant.

Also you have failed again to answer a very simple question, why?
'is the act of attacking the USS Cole according to your definition of terrorism a legitimate act of war?'

[CMike11]

Figures

[the_fog]

Figures

If you can not answer the question or you do not want to just say, and I will stop asking.


'is the act of attacking the USS Cole according to your definition of terrorism a legitimate act of war?'

[PercyVere]

It's amazing to me that this anti-Israel crowd has to go back over 60 years to make this crap up.When discussing Irgun terrorism, there is a very real need to "go back over 60 years" ... this is because they ceased to exist (or were absorbed) more than 60 years ago. Going back over 60 years kinda goes with the territory.

[the_fog]

When discussing Irgun terrorism, there is a very real need to "go back over 60 years" ... this is because they ceased to exist (or were absorbed) more than 60 years ago. Going back over 60 years kinda goes with the territory.

By the same rational if one was going to discuss Nazi war crimes one would also have to go back 60 years.

The fictional version of history is the one presented by Zionists and their appeasers. Their is a fundamental reason why, in the region, of one million Palestinians left their homes when the Zionists arrived in their country. And I can tell you it was not because they wanted to live as refugees and tramps. You should look to a statement made by Ben-Gurion in 1948 to other Zionist leaders to find the answer,
There is a need now for strong and brutal reaction. We need to be accurate about timing, place and those we hit. If we accuse a family- we need to harm them without mercy, women and children included. Other wise, this is not an effective reaction… There is no need to distinguish between guilty and not guilty.

[CMike11]

:rolleyes:

[crux]

John Pilger and Ilan Pappe?

Ones a communist who supports Hamas and the other a journalists who thrives on the subject matter.

I guess it's kind of credible :rolleyes:

[CMike11]

If you can not answer the question or you do not want to just say, and I will stop asking.


'is the act of attacking the USS Cole according to your definition of terrorism a legitimate act of war?'

I answered the Cole question three times.

The Cole is a military target. The group that attacked it was a terrorist group.

How about answering my questions.

What's with the selective amnesia?

1) How come when mentioning the King David Hotel, you neglect to state that it was the British HQ military command?

2) When talking about Deir Yassin you neglect to mention that it wasn't a "massace" but a prolonged fight where the irgun took 41 causalties?

One would think people on your side are deceitful by forgetting to mention these critical facts.

Also, the topic of this thread is Hamas once again violating the truce by shooting missiles at arab village, not Israeli resistance fighters to british harsh rule over them, and the arabs that were attacking them.

Why don't you start another thread rather than hijack this one?

[Jacob_Rising]

CMike11, it seems you are going down the dark road of denial. The Irgun massacred innocent people for their political objectives, that is a historical fact. Perhaps you did not read the below text. Also terrorism is an act, meaning whoever does it for what ever reason it is terrorism.

Furthermore you have not fully answered my question, is the act of attacking the USS Cole according to your definition of terrorism a legitimate act of war?

Another point I would like to make; what did the Palestinians who were the indigenous people of Palestine do to deserve being expelled from their homes by the Zionist movements that deiced Palestine belonged to them?Mosques all over the middle East recite Mohamed's commandment to Muslim: The Hour{resurection} will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the Rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say,''Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, This is a Jew behind me, Come and Kill HIM! {Sahih Muslim 41:6985, also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:177}
This Hadith, issued by Mohamed, makes a Whole group of people illegal to exist. It was issued in the 7th century.

Many Muslims claim that Arabs and Jews lived well together for many years before 1948. But that claim ignores the fact that Jews had to live as Dhimmis under Islamic law and were never allowed to rule themselves seperate from Islamic Sharia.

You wanna come in here and show a minority of violent Jews while hundreds of millions of Muslims that live with them wont even allow them to exist.

Talk about the Cole bombing, It's a real shame that our government did nothing about these atrocities when 3000 of our Americans were killed just before 9-11.

The only problem we have is admitting who our real enemy is.

Who do we bomb after somebody bombed our Cole?

Who do we bomb after all our embassies were bombed and these cowards who flew these plains into the world trade centers.

May 15th, the day after Israel gained it's independence and made legal by the civilized world called the United Nations, soldiers from Egypt, Syria,Iraq,Lebanon and Saudi Arabia attacked sparking an all at war for more than a year.

The funny thing is, when Mark Twain went all through the Holy lands writing about it, he said the place was near deserted that you could walk all day and not see anybody.

But as soon as these Jewish Dhimmis gained independence from Muslim law, Everyone attacks.

We havn't forgotten any of the atrocities committed by these people from jump street.

Crimes against humanity, Crimes against United nations resolutions, abductions, Terroists actions continueing from decade to decade.

We remember the build up of training Para military soldiers during the Shaw of Iran and we remember the Ariline hijackings, the Olympics in Complete Shame as cowards in Masks held 11 Jews Hostage in September in front of the world while the games continued.

There is no rationalizing these Terrorist attacks, and one day the world is going to wake up and understand what Sharia really means.

These Terroists come out as cowards with Masks on being helped by Governments that try to play innocent while buying child killers guns.

If they were real men, They would stand and declare war from their own seats of government.

But the world plays around with these Gorrillas and act as if they wont use the bomb when they get it.

Everyone seesm to think that Iran has nothing to do with Palistine, with Iraq, with Afganistan and every other struggle going on to cease land for Islamic law.

There is no chance for Peace in the middle East simply because Muslims are not going to even recognize Jews right to live.

So don't come in here with your minority report trying to show us Jews doing something bad at one time or the other.

All I have seen is sacrifice and their land dwindled down to less than one percent of what the United nations gave them but that will never be enough.

By Islamic law, The fight would still be on if only one Jew remained in the Middle East.

And We The Great Satan must die also.

So says the multitudes in the Arab streets burning Israel and American flags dancing on rooftops when our towers went down.

The Arab world exactly knows what they are doing, They know they are in Jihad Holy war right now in over 20 places around the globe.

What's sad is that we Americans don't know we are in it.

[ohio_dad]

Mosques all over the middle East recite Mohamed's commandment to Muslim: The Hour{resurection} will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the Rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say,''Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, This is a Jew behind me, Come and Kill HIM! {Sahih Muslim 41:6985, also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:177}
This Hadith, issued by Mohamed, makes a Whole group of people illegal to exist. It was issued in the 7th century.

Many Muslims claim that Arabs and Jews lived well together for many years before 1948. But that claim ignores the fact that Jews had to live as Dhimmis under Islamic law and were never allowed to rule themselves seperate from Islamic Sharia.

You wanna come in here and show a minority of violent Jews while hundreds of millions of Muslims that live with them wont even allow them to exist.

Talk about the Cole bombing, It's a real shame that our government did nothing about these atrocities when 3000 of our Americans were killed just before 9-11.

The only problem we have is admitting who our real enemy is.

Who do we bomb after somebody bombed our Cole?

Who do we bomb after all our embassies were bombed and these cowards who flew these plains into the world trade centers.

May 15th, the day after Israel gained it's independence and made legal by the civilized world called the United Nations, soldiers from Egypt, Syria,Iraq,Lebanon and Saudi Arabia attacked sparking an all at war for more than a year.

The funny thing is, when Mark Twain went all through the Holy lands writing about it, he said the place was near deserted that you could walk all day and not see anybody.

But as soon as these Jewish Dhimmis gained independence from Muslim law, Everyone attacks.

We havn't forgotten any of the atrocities committed by these people from jump street.

Crimes against humanity, Crimes against United nations resolutions, abductions, Terroists actions continueing from decade to decade.

We remember the build up of training Para military soldiers during the Shaw of Iran and we remember the Ariline hijackings, the Olympics in Complete Shame as cowards in Masks held 11 Jews Hostage in September in front of the world while the games continued.

There is no rationalizing these Terrorist attacks, and one day the world is going to wake up and understand what Sharia really means.

These Terroists come out as cowards with Masks on being helped by Governments that try to play innocent while buying child killers guns.

If they were real men, They would stand and declare war from their own seats of government.

But the world plays around with these Gorrillas and act as if they wont use the bomb when they get it.

Everyone seesm to think that Iran has nothing to do with Palistine, with Iraq, with Afganistan and every other struggle going on to cease land for Islamic law.

There is no chance for Peace in the middle East simply because Muslims are not going to even recognize Jews right to live.

So don't come in here with your minority report trying to show us Jews doing something bad at one time or the other.

All I have seen is sacrifice and their land dwindled down to less than one percent of what the United nations gave them but that will never be enough.

By Islamic law, The fight would still be on if only one Jew remained in the Middle East.

And We The Great Satan must die also.

So says the multitudes in the Arab streets burning Israel and American flags dancing on rooftops when our towers went down.

The Arab world exactly knows what they are doing, They know they are in Jihad Holy war right now in over 20 places around the globe.

What's sad is that we Americans don't know we are in it.

So will you fight the Jesus War with me or not??

[Jacob_Rising]

So will you fight the Jesus War with me or not??
I guess I don't know what that means, I believe in Yeshuah if that's what your asking.

[Celtic Pax]

I see another arab/palestinian apologizer has joined the forum with is usual list of arab propaganda factoids. A waste of bandwidth attempting to address an "anti-Zionist" zealot even after Mike and others have exploded the propganda.

[meggers49]

I'm curious ... do Palestinians have any rights at all? And does Israel have to 'behave', or is that just the Palestinians?

are you kidding? israel DOES behave unless someone lobs rockets into their schools and business areas. if you can't admit that then further discussion is a waste of time.

[meggers49]

:)):)) ... you are starting to sound a little desperate

desperate? not at all. Historical fact.

[meggers49]

By the same rational if one was going to discuss Nazi war crimes one would also have to go back 60 years.

The fictional version of history is the one presented by Zionists and their appeasers. Their is a fundamental reason why, in the region, of one million Palestinians left their homes when the Zionists arrived in their country. And I can tell you it was not because they wanted to live as refugees and tramps. You should look to a statement made by Ben-Gurion in 1948 to other Zionist leaders to find the answer,

Zionists and their appeasers. OK, well, that just really summed it up nicely. Tata.

[meggers49]

So will you fight the Jesus War with me or not??

What?

[Streelsh]

When discussing Irgun terrorism, there is a very real need to "go back over 60 years" ... this is because they ceased to exist (or were absorbed) more than 60 years ago. Going back over 60 years kinda goes with the territory.

What "terrorism" are you talking about ?

[Streelsh]

When discussing Irgun terrorism, there is a very real need to "go back over 60 years" ... this is because they ceased to exist (or were absorbed) more than 60 years ago. Going back over 60 years kinda goes with the territory.

Why go back merely SIXTY years :: Why not go back EIGHTY years to 1929 when the Arabs overran the Jewish community in Hebron ( where JEWS were living CONTINUOUSLY for over THREE THOUSAND YEARS or ABOUT SEVENTEEN HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE ISLAM BEGAN!!) in which almost 100 men, women and children were murdered and about a dozen women were raped !( whoops thats politically incorrect -- those stupid UNTERMENSCHEN Jews ---don't they know they therefore have no rights !!)

[Celtic Pax]

Why go back merely SIXTY years :: Why not go back EIGHTY years to 1929 when the Arabs overran the Jewish community in Hebron ( where JEWS were living CONTINUOUSLY for over THREE THOUSAND YEARS or ABOUT SEVENTEEN HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE ISLAM BEGAN!!) in which almost 100 men, women and children were murdered and about a dozen women were raped !( whoops thats politically incorrect -- those stupid UNTERMENSCHEN Jews ---don't they know they therefore have no rights !!)

What happened during the Arab riots of 1929?

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php
The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern history of Israel. On the afternoon of Friday, August 23, 1929 Jerusalem Arabs came to Hebron with false reports of Jews murdering Arabs during the rioting there, even saying thousands of Arabs had been killed. Despite the fact that Jews and Arabs in Hebron had been on good terms, a mass of frenzied Arab rioters formed and proceeded to the Hebron Yeshiva where a lone student was murdered. The next day, the Jewish Sabbath, the killing continued as an Arab mob of hundreds surrounded homes where Jews sought refuge, broke in and murdered scores of Jews in a bloody rampage.

[CMike11]

I see another arab/palestinian apologizer has joined the forum with is usual list of arab propaganda factoids. A waste of bandwidth attempting to address an "anti-Zionist" zealot even after Mike and others have exploded the propganda.

Thank you.

I would appreciate some legitimate discussion and debate.

It seems that whenever this crowd use some example to prove their point, they miss some crtiical point in it.

It's almost like writing about the Allied Invasion of Normandy, and leaving out everything that happened before the invasion.

[the_fog]

Is it a crime to detest terrorism of all kinds even when it is committed by Jews, and our own? From your reactions and blatant denial of history it seems it is.

Will you at least accept that the indigenous semitic population of Palestine were removed from their homes by European Jews?

I would also appreciate some legitimate discussion and debate, but you seem to deny anything that challenges your contrived view of the Arab Israeli conflict. Furthermore the sentiments expressed by Celtix Pax are symbolic of the reaction to any criticism of Israel.

[Celtic Pax]

Thank you.

I would appreciate some legitimate discussion and debate.

It seems that whenever this crowd use some example to prove their point, they miss some crtiical point in it.

It's almost like writing about the Allied Invasion of Normandy, and leaving out everything that happened before the invasion.anti-Zionist drones know no better and think they can join this forum and attempt to dispense their propaganda and "think" somehow people will fall for it. No matter how often they are refuted and their facts are proven to be false, they persist until no one decided to feed them. Such as the "massacre" story of Jenin:Forensic pathologist Derrick Pounder, who recently spent several days in the Jenin refugee camp as part of an Amnesty International mission, has concluded that it is "simply not true" that most of those killed were armed fighters.

[the_fog]

Is it a crime to detest terrorism of all kinds even when it is committed by Jews, and our own? From your reactions and blatant denial of history it seems it is.

Will you at least accept that the indigenous semitic population of Palestine were removed from their homes by European Jews?

I would also appreciate some legitimate discussion and debate, but you seem to deny anything that challenges your contrived view of the Arab Israeli conflict. Furthermore the sentiments expressed by Celtix Pax are symbolic of the reaction to any criticism of Israel.


Celtic Pax wrote anti-Zionist drones know no better and think they can join this forum and attempt to dispense their propaganda and "think" somehow people will fall for it.

Since when did relating historical facts become propaganda. Celtic Pax your actions are similar to other groups at the other end of the spectrum. Some groups based on political objectives deny Europeans persecuted Jews; you deny based on political objectives Jews persecuted Arabs. The Historical fact is that European Jews took the land of Palestinians and then forced them out. Why can you not admit this, its history?

[Jacob_Rising]

Is it a crime to detest terrorism of all kinds even when it is committed by Jews, and our own? From your reactions and blatant denial of history it seems it is.

Will you at least accept that the indigenous semitic population of Palestine were removed from their homes by European Jews?

I would also appreciate some legitimate discussion and debate, but you seem to deny anything that challenges your contrived view of the Arab Israeli conflict. Furthermore the sentiments expressed by Celtix Pax are symbolic of the reaction to any criticism of Israel.


Celtic Pax wrote

Since when did relating historical facts become propaganda. Celtic Pax your actions are similar to other groups at the other end of the spectrum. Some groups based on political objectives deny Europeans persecuted Jews; you deny based on political objectives Jews persecuted Arabs. The Historical fact is that European Jews took the land of Palestinians and then forced them out. Why can you not admit this, its history? Do you think we Texans should give back Texas to Mexico?

Why should we, The Mexicans play cool with us and they have pretty much taken over Texas anyway.

Do you think we should turn the United states over to the American indians?

I am an American Indian but I say no.

Who gives land back?

When The Muslims spread from here to eternity from the Philipines to Somolia , to stealing half of India, Should the Muslims give back the land they took?

What are you talking about dude?

The only people in the world giving land back is Israel.

No other country or people in the world would do such a thing.

When every Arab Country surrounded them in 48 and then in 67, they kicked Arab Butt and then they still gave land back when they didn't have to..

But you want more.

What they have now{Palistine} is a gift for peace, But it's a wothless gift and it will never be enough for you guys.

The Muslims are the ones trying to cease land and instititue Islamic rule, and your crying over a very small piece of property while Muslims are taken entire countries.

[CMike11]

Okay I will type slowly so hopefully the other side will understand.

The examples of what they use as Israeli/jewish terrorism are falsehoods. Let's go over the two examples given.

1) The King David Hotel. What the other side {cough} always neglects to tell you when they mention this attack, is that the King David Hotel was the British command HQ. It was a military target. Therefore, it was not an act of terrorism.

Why did the Irqun attack the British command HQ?

Because the British were putting jews in detention camps and making mass arrests. They arrested everyone in the jewish agency.

2) The Deir Yassin incident. The arab propogandists claim it was a massacre. However, it was a long protracted battle with 41 Irqun casualites. Also, the people there were left an escape route. There were Iraqi soldiers there.

What is the common thread?

The arab propogandists resort to lies and half truths. If they are so sure of their position why are they doing this?

[consusa]

This is out of control.

Is this Amnesty Int solution worth a try that calls for a sweeping arms embargo of both trigger happy parties in holy land:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7904929.stm

Could this finally bring peace, fredom and equality there?

An arms embargo isn't going to change the Palestinians' mind set, nor will it stop arms traffic. There are too many Middle Eastern countries that have a stake in the Palestinian assault on Israel.

[the_fog]

Do you think we Texans should give back Texas to Mexico?

Why should we, The Mexicans play cool with us and they have pretty much taken over Texas anyway.

Do you think we should turn the United states over to the American indians?

I am an American Indian but I say no.

Who gives land back?

When The Muslims spread from here to eternity from the Philipines to Somolia , to stealing half of India, Should the Muslims give back the land they took?

What are you talking about dude?

The only people in the world giving land back is Israel.

No other country or people in the world would do such a thing.

When every Arab Country surrounded them in 48 and then in 67, they kicked Arab Butt and then they still gave land back when they didn't have to..

But you want more.

What they have now{Palistine} is a gift for peace, But it's a wothless gift and it will never be enough for you guys.

The Muslims are the ones trying to cease land and instititue Islamic rule, and your crying over a very small piece of property while Muslims are taken entire countries.

The way you justify Israel's actions is by comparing them to similar atrocities. America was taken from the American Indians by acts of ethnic cleansing and you use this event to justify Israels acts of ethnic cleansing. Do you think this is a wise way to defend Israel's position? According to your rational Osama bin Laden could say 'our actions in New York were justified because America dropped two nuclear bombs over a civilian populations in Japan'. Your method of argument is floored, and my kindergarten teacher's advice should be enough to dismantle it 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

Your next method of defending Israel's actions was by attacking Islam. This has almost become a default setting for those who unconditionally defend Israel. However, I refer you back to my teacher’s advice, even if your claims about Islamic history were true 'two wrongs don't make a right. Furthermore, you claims are historically and academically false; the lands that Muslims conquered were not ethnically cleansed by Muslims of the indigenous population and the non-Muslim Christians and Jews were not forced to convert to Islam. A case example is Spain, before Muslims came there were Christians and Jews and when Muslims left after 800 years there were still Christians and Jews, the Church was responsible for the Spanish Inquisition.

The reality is that Zionist Jews from Europe took the land of Palestine from the indigenous Semitic population; what right did they have to do this?

If you are able try and answer the question.

[CMike11]

The way you justify Israel's actions is by comparing them to similar atrocities. America was taken from the American Indians by acts of ethnic cleansing and you use this event to justify Israels acts of ethnic cleansing. Do you think this is a wise way to defend Israel's position? According to your rational Osama bin Laden could say 'our actions in New York were justified because America dropped two nuclear bombs over a civilian populations in Japan'. Your method of argument is floored, and my kindergarten teacher's advice should be enough to dismantle it 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

Your next method of defending Israel's actions was by attacking Islam. This has almost become a default setting for those who unconditionally defend Israel. However, I refer you back to my teacher’s advice, even if your claims about Islamic history were true 'two wrongs don't make a right. Furthermore, you claims are historically and academically false; the lands that Muslims conquered were not ethnically cleansed by Muslims of the indigenous population and the non-Muslim Christians and Jews were not forced to convert to Islam. A case example is Spain, before Muslims came there were Christians and Jews and when Muslims left after 800 years there were still Christians and Jews, the Church was responsible for the Spanish Inquisition.

The reality is that Zionist Jews from Europe took the land of Palestine from the indigenous Semitic population; what right did they have to do this?

If you are able try and answer the question.



Self defense.

Probably those five arab countries shouldn't have invaded Israel for the purpose of destroying her, huh?

They were the aggressors. They lost. They gotta get over it.

[Jacob_Rising]

The way you justify Israel's actions is by comparing them to similar atrocities. America was taken from the American Indians by acts of ethnic cleansing and you use this event to justify Israels acts of ethnic cleansing. Do you think this is a wise way to defend Israel's position? According to your rational Osama bin Laden could say 'our actions in New York were justified because America dropped two nuclear bombs over a civilian populations in Japan'. Your method of argument is floored, and my kindergarten teacher's advice should be enough to dismantle it 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

Your next method of defending Israel's actions was by attacking Islam. This has almost become a default setting for those who unconditionally defend Israel. However, I refer you back to my teacher’s advice, even if your claims about Islamic history were true 'two wrongs don't make a right. Furthermore, you claims are historically and academically false; the lands that Muslims conquered were not ethnically cleansed by Muslims of the indigenous population and the non-Muslim Christians and Jews were not forced to convert to Islam. A case example is Spain, before Muslims came there were Christians and Jews and when Muslims left after 800 years there were still Christians and Jews, the Church was responsible for the Spanish Inquisition.

The reality is that Zionist Jews from Europe took the land of Palestine from the indigenous Semitic population; what right did they have to do this?

If you are able try and answer the question.
Ethnic cleansing my Arse, If it was Ethnic cleansing then the Dome of the rock wouldn't be standing right now.

The only thing wrong with Palistine and the fact that they will never gain statehood is the actions of the Arab countries around them.

There is no Arab country out there that gives a dam about Palistinians.

They want the Palistinians to look like the oppressed so they can continue their lies in the Arab News.

I watch all these Arab News stations and they do nothing but lie about Israel.

They keep showing Israel on the attack but why do they never mention the missles flying into Israel by Hamas?

These so called indigenous people{yeah right} have been given every chance in the world to live in peace amongst the Jews but they don't want peace. The Arab countries don't want the Israeli attacks to stop because they want them to remain victims to show their lies to the world.

Clinton made Israel pay like a billion bucks so that Palistinians could arm themselves and rule in the thugs of Hamas, But these weapons were used against Israel.

Again in Bushes day, Rice went over there and demanded Israel pay Millions of Dollars to Palistinians to arm themselves but then the people voted in Hamas and it fell through.

What kind of people vote in a known international Terrorist organization to rule them?

Before 9-11 the BBC kept airing elementry schools all over Palistine and they showed all the schools and what these little babies were being taught.

They interviewed 4 and 5 year olds holding plastic guns and vowing to be homocide bombers and to kill Jews.

What kind of freakish people raise their children in this way and how could there ever be a peace when you teach your child from birth to be a murdering thug?

[CMike11]

I agree with what Jacob said.

It has nothing to do with "ethnic cleasing".

Israel has arabs that vote and are represented in the Israeli parliament.

This has to do with groups that are intent on spreading terrorism by targeting civilians and shooting missiles randomnly into cities, and have shown that they are intent in destroying a country and everyone in it.

Those people can not be negotiated with, they need to be destroyed.

[Jacob_Rising]

I agree with what Jacob said.

It has nothing to do with "ethnic cleasing".

Israel has arabs that vote and are represented in the Israeli parliament.

This has to do with groups that are intent on spreading terrorism by targeting civilians and shooting missiles randomnly into cities, and have shown that they are intent in destroying a country and everyone in it.

Those people can not be negotiated with, they need to be destroyed.I wouldn't want anyone to misunderstand me, I'm all for Homocide Bombers, in fact I think America should pay for the explosives if anybody wants to strap one on.

Heck, I'de be willing to pay a quarter of my check each month to help pay for the explosives.

If a man is strong enough to want to strap on a bomb to themselves and is then willing to blow said bomb up, then by all means, let's help them with the explosives.

Let them all have their bombs, let them walk out to the desert alone and blow themselves up.

That way they could have 70 beds with 70 virgins and go to Allah.

[CMike11]

Perhaps there should be a UN sponsored world wide "Global Homicide Bombers' Day" to commemorate their hard and zealous work.

:clap:

[meggers49]

Self defense.

Probably those five arab countries shouldn't have invaded Israel for the purpose of destroying her, huh?

They were the aggressors. They lost. They gotta get over it.

I explained that earlier and was called desperate.....don't waste your air .

[Celtic Pax]

Too bad according to their own Quran, the suicide murderers are not going to paradise. Seems suicide except in very specific circumstances is NOT condoned by the Quran. Wonder if Hell has any virgins for these murdering thugs.

[CMike11]

Too bad according to their own Quran, the suicide murderers are not going to paradise. Seems suicide except in very specific circumstances is NOT condoned by the Quran. Wonder if Hell has any virgins for these murdering thugs.

Maybe all the women there look like Hillary Rodham Clinton or Janet Reno :))

[Celtic Pax]

Or maybe Helen Thomas http://www.zu.ac.ae/leadership2008/images/speakers/helen_thomas.jpg and Nancy Pelosi?:clap:

[CMike11]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Blindeye101]

I thought Obama would make peace in the middle east?

[Celtic Pax]

He has yet to make peace between the socialist democrats and republican so why expect he will make peace in the middle east?

[meggers49]

Or maybe Helen Thomas http://www.zu.ac.ae/leadership2008/images/speakers/helen_thomas.jpg and Nancy Pelosi?:clap:

Dear Sweet Lord, I hope no one saw that right after eating!!! :sick:

I was nearly blinded... shudder...

and she was smiling besides.....someone must have given her some prunes....she always looks like she's in need or she's smelled something bad. ick ick ick..

[CMike11]

Is posting that picture a crime against humanity?

[Jacob_Rising]

Dear Sweet Lord, I hope no one saw that right after eating!!! :sick:

I was nearly blinded... shudder...

and she was smiling besides.....someone must have given her some prunes....she always looks like she's in need or she's smelled something bad. ick ick ick..That woman doesn't even have the right to be in Presidential News conferences, I don't have any idea why they put up with her.

They say that she's not so bad in the earlie part of the day but she starts smelling like p at the end of the day.

[PercyVere]

are you kidding? israel DOES behave unless someone lobs rockets into their schools and business areas. if you can't admit that then further discussion is a waste of time.And this is where we end up with the endless and completely unproductive tit-fot-tat attacks ... unproductive except in terms of the ongoing Israeli land grab - the map posted earlier in this thread highlights that effect. Israel's tit-for-tat attacks have not brought them peace, but it has gained them a whole lot of territory.

[PercyVere]

are you kidding? israel DOES behave unless someone lobs rockets into their schools and business areas. if you can't admit that then further discussion is a waste of time.Do you honestly call Israel's treatment of the Palestinians 'behaving'?

[the_fog]

@Jacob, Mike and Meggers.

The points of history that you have denied like the Deir Yassin Massacre I will present more information on in the near future. However, for now please explain how you think Israel was established on Palestinian land in 1948, do you think the Palestinians just walked away from their homes? And what right did European Jews have to take land away from the Palestinians to create Israel in 1948?

Also according to your views the King David hotel was not a terrorist attack, because you claim the target was a military one, even though more than 60 civilians were killed. However, you continue to call the attack against the USS Cole (2000) a terrorist attack even though the target was a military one and only military personal were killed. This is a clear contradiction, can you explain yourselves?

[Celtic Pax]

Is posting that picture a crime against humanity?Maybe for all the Jihadist suicide murderers going to hell in violation of their Quran.

[CMike11]

Do you honestly call Israel's treatment of the Palestinians 'behaving'?

I call it far too restrained.

[CMike11]

The points of history that you have denied like the Deir Yassin Massacre I will present more information on in the near future. However, for now please explain how you think Israel was established on Palestinian land in 1948, do you think the Palestinians just walked away from their homes? And what right did European Jews have to take land away from the Palestinians to create Israel in 1948?

Also according to your views the King David hotel was not a terrorist attack, because you claim the target was a military one, even though more than 60 civilians were killed. However, you continue to call the attack against the USS Cole (2000) a terrorist attack even though the target was a military one and only military personal were killed. This is a clear contradiction, can you explain yourselves?

I explained it several times.

As I stated numerous times, the Cole WAS a military target. The organization that attacked it was a terrorist one, because it has consistently targeted civilians. This particular target was a military one.

As I now stated numerous times and backed it up with proof Deir Yassin was a protracted fight. There were Iraqi soldiers there. There were 41 Irgun casulaties.

The arabs were warned and were even given an escape route.

It was not a massacre. It was a tough, protracted fight, that lasted several hours. Israel needed the area to open the road to Jerusalem.

If the arabs accepted the UN division between the arabs and jews, then the arabs wouldn't have lost the land.

Instead, five arab countries invaded Israel for the purpose of destroying her. This made it crystal clear to Israel that the arabs didn't want to live in peace with the jews, and Israel had to take measures to insure its safety and security against such aggression and hostility.

[blackcatrun]

Yeah but it's going to be worse.

Once they pass out a nuke to some brainwashed killer with a truck, it's going to be worse.

Iran would never use a missile. That would give us the go ahead to attack them.

You know that is down right frightening.

[CMike11]

And this is where we end up with the endless and completely unproductive tit-fot-tat attacks ... unproductive except in terms of the ongoing Israeli land grab - the map posted earlier in this thread highlights that effect. Israel's tit-for-tat attacks have not brought them peace, but it has gained them a whole lot of territory.

Based on the aggression of her neighbors, it's better for Israel to have a lack of peace with a whole lot of territory, than to have a lack of peace with a tiny amount of territory.

In any case Israel itself is very tiny. It's about the size of New Jersey, and the arab countries are about the size of the US.

It's not about the territory or the Palestinians, it's about the arab leadership trying to have a propoganda issue to attack israel and constantly try to put Israel in a more precarious position by trying to get it to give more of the little land it presently occupies.

[the_fog]

CMike11, your are not answering the question that is fundamental to this topic, what right did European Jews have to establish a Jewish state on Palestinian land?

Also how do you think European Jews established Jewish state on Palestinian land, do you think the Palestinians just got up and walked away or were they forced out?

With regards to you interpretation of terrorism it is symbolic of the overall stance taken by the US. 'When we or our agents murder for our political objectives its legitimate, when our enemies do the same acts its terrorism'. Zionists blow up the King David hotel, you claim a legitimate act of war. Arabs fundamentalists blow a hole in the USS Cole, you claim a terrorist attack. The only thing that makes one act legitimate and the other 'illegal' is the owner of the act not the act its self. In the same manner when the Afghans were fighting the Russians they were heroes and freedom fighters, Stallone even made a film supporting them, and Regan dedicated a shuttle launch to them, but when the Afghans fight Americans for invading their country they suddenly become terrorists.

[CMike11]

CMike11, your are not answering the question that is fundamental to this topic, what right did European Jews have to establish a Jewish state on Palestinian land?

1) If you want to get into had it first, it was the jews

2) It wasn't Palestinian land. It was a british colony before that it blonged to the Ottomon empire

2 1/2) If you are asking what legal right. The UN divided up the british colony between the jews and the arabs.

3) In the beginning of the state jews actually bought the land from arabs. Then the arab nations decided to wipe out Israel from the face from the face of the earth. Doing this they forfeited being trusted.

They then lost the land, and Israel had to do what it needed to do to insure her security based on the aggression and belligerence of its neighbors. The arab leadership's continous terrorist acts against Israel only cements that was the right decision.

As I stated as it is Israel is about the size of NJ, and the arab states are about the size of the US. If the arab states truely cared about the so called "palestinians" they would have invited these arabs back into their home states.

Why don't they? That if they cared about them.



?

With regards to you interpretation of terrorism it is symbolic of the overall stance taken by the US. 'When we or our agents murder for our political objectives its legitimate, when our enemies do the same acts its terrorism'. Zionists blow up the King David hotel, you claim a legitimate act of war. Arabs fundamentalists blow a hole in the USS Cole, you claim a terrorist attack. The only thing that makes one act legitimate and the other 'illegal' is the owner of the act not the act its self. In the same manner when the Afghans were fighting the Russians they were heroes and freedom fighters, Stallone even made a film supporting them, and Regan dedicated a shuttle launch to them, but when the Afghans fight Americans for invading their country they suddenly become terrorists.

I deal with this eight for about eight times.

The USS Cole was a military target. It was attacked by a terrorist group.

An Al Qaida terrorist may shoot a US soldier. The US soldier is a military target, however, the group doing it is a terrorist one.

It seems pretty clear to me.

The King David Hotel was a military target. It was the British HQ command.

Why did they get attacked?

How about putting jews in detention camps, and making mass arrests. The brits arrested everyone in the jewish agency.

The british brought it on upon themselves.

Also the difference is that the area was a colony to them. The jews actually live in Israel.

[Jacob_Rising]

CMike11, your are not answering the question that is fundamental to this topic, what right did European Jews have to establish a Jewish state on Palestinian land?

They had the Rightous right of the land because it was not only given to them by God, but it was also given to them by the world community, the league of nations, the United Nations.

You act as if the balfour declaration was never there, you act as if the civilized world and the league of nations and the United nations had no authority but they did even though you don't recognize it.

Let's not forget that Gaza, and everyone in that area sided with Hitler and those people are lucky to even be alive.

Not only were these criminals and enemies of the world community allowed to live , but to add insult to injury, Israel has always given them the greatest respect allowing Arabs to be free within their own God given, United nation's given land.

Israel could have easily destroyed their Holy places but they didn't.

When Israel moved into THE LAND GIVEN TO THEM BY THE UNITED NATIONS, These enemies and lovers of Hitler were even granted to be a part of Israel politics.

They were liberated and given more freedom than they had ever been shown by any nation surrounding them.

Israel created the jobs and Palistinians have nothing without the employment Israel c reated for them.

But when Israel became a nation nobody would be their friends.

Israel had to become completely independent from every nations surrounding them because nobody would do buissness with them or allow transportation through any country.

They were so vehemently hated and so shunned that they became strong by learning to depend on themselves entirely, and that's what made them strong.

Now the world points at them because Palistinians are without jobs, WHAT JOBS?

The jobs that Israelis created that make the entire region work.

When Israel closes it's borders against Palistinian Missles, Palistinians no longer have jobs.

And so everyone in Palistine gets behind the only resource they have.

Hate.,

[PercyVere]

1) If you want to get into had it first, it was the jewsThe Jewish diaspora who lived outside of the area for countless generations had no claim whatsoever on the Palestinian lands that now make up Israel. A holy book comprising mostly of ancient mythology, does not constitute a valid claim of ownership. Time is another problem ... the Jews had not had their own country there for 2000 years, and that only lasted about 100 years - are you suggesting that all peoples and races all over the world can seize land based on where their supposed ancestors lived 2000 years ago?
What about the last 2000 years? Does that count for nothing? What about if your family lived there for a dozen generations to the present? Does that mean nothing either?

[PercyVere]

3) In the beginning of the state jews actually bought the land from arabs.That claim, oft heard, is tragically unfounded and lacking any supporting evidence. Have you ever heard of al Nakba?

[Jacob_Rising]

The Jewish diaspora who lived outside of the area for countless generations had no claim whatsoever on the Palestinian lands that now make up Israel. A holy book comprising mostly of ancient mythology, does not constitute a valid claim of ownership. Time is another problem ... the Jews had not had their own country there for 2000 years, and that only lasted about 100 years - are you suggesting that all peoples and races all over the world can seize land based on where their supposed ancestors lived 2000 years ago?
What about the last 2000 years? Does that count for nothing? What about if your family lived there for a dozen generations to the present? Does that mean nothing either?Land is siezed and owned by the rightful owner.

The conquerer.

This applies to everyone but Israel, Israel was given the land by the world community and they conquered the land.

For decades they have given back land time and time again even though they didn't have to.

What other country took land and gave it back out of kindness?

Do you know of any strip of land?

The Assyrian king took possession of Gaza and the west Bank in 722 B.C but he did not take Judea.

He placed those people in that part of Israel and it became Samaria, Palistine.

What right did the Assyrian king have when he moved the Northern Kingdom of Israel to Babylon and Assyria?

What right did the Assyrian king have when he planted those Babylonians and Egyptians in the land of Palistine?

He had the right of conquerer.

Palistinians are lucky Israelis believe in liberty and freedom, anyone else would have completely destroyed them from all the surrounding regions.

[Jacob_Rising]

We defeated Hitler and our enemies and Normandy.

We had the Surpreme right to dictate who ruled what after the war.

Israel was attacked without any cause.

America and Brtain were attacked without cause.

We fought an evil racial war and decency won.

We had that right as the conquerers of Hilter and allies.

The Arabs stood with Hitler, Palistinains were Hitler's allies.

[Jacob_Rising]

In any case Israel itself is very tiny. It's about the size of New Jersey, and the arab countries are about the size of the US.
.
Wonder what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot?

What if Muslims lived in the tiny Little area that Israel lives in now.

What if Israel was Egypt, Syria,Iraq,Iran,Jordan,Saudi Arabia?

What if 100's of Millions of Israelis surrounded this tiny piece of land owned by Muslims?

[Jacob_Rising]

Why does the oldest underdog out there look like an oppressor when they are outnumbered by the sand of the sea?

Truman said,'' Well, Heck, if that small amount of Jews can survive surrounded by so many that want to kill them, let them have a shot''

Who could have dreamed that they would survive?

Truman never believed it.

Now Israel is made to look as if they are some Goliath when they are as small as David.

[DuckSoupe]

You mean the people Obuma wants to hug are acting up? Tell me it isn't so:wall:

[CMike11]

The Jewish diaspora who lived outside of the area for countless generations had no claim whatsoever on the Palestinian lands that now make up Israel. A holy book comprising mostly of ancient mythology, does not constitute a valid claim of ownership. Time is another problem ... the Jews had not had their own country there for 2000 years, and that only lasted about 100 years - are you suggesting that all peoples and races all over the world can seize land based on where their supposed ancestors lived 2000 years ago?
What about the last 2000 years? Does that count for nothing? What about if your family lived there for a dozen generations to the present? Does that mean nothing either?

Well...if you want to get into whom had it first than yeah...

Once again, there is no such thing as "Palestine". It was a British colony before that it was part of the Ottomon Empire.

If the arab leadership had any bit of civility it wouldn't have come to this.

[Jacob_Rising]

Well...if you want to get into whom had it first than yeah...

Once again, there is no such thing as "Palestine". It was a British colony before that it was part of the Ottomon Empire.

If the arab leadership had any bit of civility it wouldn't have come to this.850,000 Jewish refugees kicked out of all the Arab countries they had lived in for thousands of years in 1948.

It's time for restitution, Why were these lands taken away from these people living there for thousands of years?

Jewish people kicked out of countries all over the world, Where is the outcry?

[CMike11]

Excellent question :clap:

[Jacob_Rising]

Excellent question :clap:A Question from the Jewish Voice Today magazine Adar/Nissan 5769.

It is a Christian Mag but it always has very good debates and statistics and Israeli history and it's war trying to survive.

I'm always stealing somebody else's good debates.

Sarah Weiner wrote this in,'' There real war Israel is fighting''

Why is there no world outcry about the 850,000 Jewish refugees?

They send me this magazine for free, I learn new stuff about Israel every issue.

[PercyVere]

The Arabs stood with Hitler, Palistinains were Hitler's allies.This is an overused and inappropriate criticism of the Palestinians. The Palestinian association with the Nazis comes from the notion that "my enemy's enemy is my friend". Do you equally condemn all nations and groups that were nominally on the side of Hitler due to having a shared enemy? If so you must write off Finland, a nation which fought what must surley be the bravest fight against aggression in all of WWII.

[PercyVere]

850,000 Jewish refugees kicked out of all the Arab countries they had lived in for thousands of years in 1948.

It's time for restitution, Why were these lands taken away from these people living there for thousands of years?

Jewish people kicked out of countries all over the world, Where is the outcry?I guess the main reason the plight of the Jewish refugees is seen as less dire is that they had a country to go to ... all they had to do was show up in Israel, some Palestinian farmer would be kicked off his land, some apartments would go up, and they'd be good to go ... citizenship granted by racist laws which excluded natives based on ethnic origin.

Palestinians refugees, on the other hand, had no place to go. They are universally unwelcome.

[PercyVere]

850,000 Jewish refugees kicked out of all the Arab countries they had lived in for thousands of years in 1948.Also, you can't claim divine right of ownership to two places at once. God has either granted you the land of Israel, or your current place of residence, but not both. You can't be that well ''chosen'.

[PercyVere]

Once again, there is no such thing as "Palestine".Oh Christ ... not that old card ... the Creationist equivalent is "Evolution is just a theory"

Your statement is too pointless to discuss.

[PercyVere]

Why does the oldest underdog out there look like an oppressorAsk the IDF.

[PercyVere]

Wonder what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot?

What if Muslims lived in the tiny Little area that Israel lives in now.

What if Israel was Egypt, Syria,Iraq,Iran,Jordan,Saudi Arabia?

What if 100's of Millions of Israelis surrounded this tiny piece of land owned by Muslims?Now that you mention it, and Mike brought up New Jersey ...

New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the US.
New Jersey is 63 times larger than Gaza, yet it's population is only 6 times larger.
The Pop density of Gaza is 11 times higher than New Jersey.

Gaza is surrounded on 4 sides by a country which totally dominates it (yes, I have heard of the Med, I've also heard of Rafah). Israel is about 62 times larger in area, a million times more powerful, militarily.

In reality, the shoe IS on the other foot, so we don't need to surmise. And what do we see ... a wonderfully restrained IDF who wouldn't dream of bombing a school, or of herding families into a building then blowing it up.

[PATRIOT1871]

This is out of control.

Is this Amnesty Int solution worth a try that calls for a sweeping arms embargo of both trigger happy parties in holy land:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7904929.stm

Could this finally bring peace, fredom and equality there?

Arms embrago, surely you jest! OB has just promised (PLO/Hamas)them a total of 900M of our tax money! Where's the outrage on that!:wall:

[PercyVere]

Arms embrago, surely you jest! OB has just promised (PLO/Hamas)them a total of 900M of our tax money! Where's the outrage on that!:wall:Change is coming to Gaza.

Bush liked to free the **** out of countries. Obama wants to change the **** out of them. Personally, the latter might be a better option, given that the former failed utterly.

[CMike11]

Now that you mention it, and Mike brought up New Jersey ...

New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the US.
New Jersey is 63 times larger than Gaza, yet it's population is only 6 times larger.
The Pop density of Gaza is 11 times higher than New Jersey.

Gaza is surrounded on 4 sides by a country which totally dominates it (yes, I have heard of the Med, I've also heard of Rafah). Israel is about 62 times larger in area, a million times more powerful, militarily.

In reality, the shoe IS on the other foot, so we don't need to surmise. And what do we see ... a wonderfully restrained IDF who wouldn't dream of bombing a school, or of herding families into a building then blowing it up.

Cute. Try throwing in the west bank. :rolleyes:

[PercyVere]

Cute. Try throwing in the west bank. :rolleyes:Try discussing the area controlled by Hamas. Try discussing the area attacked by Israel recently.

And what has the West Bank got to do with those trapped in the Gaza ghetto? Are you saying it dilutes the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza somehow?

Sorry, your ducking and weaving won't wash with me.

[PATRIOT1871]

I'm curious ... do Palestinians have any rights at all? And does Israel have to 'behave', or is that just the Palestinians?

Well Percy,
Its only been the Jews who have been held accountable time after time while your beloved Palestinians have been given a free pass over & over for 40 plus years. A culture who straps bombs on thier childern & teach them that its O`kay to hate & murder another race because they don't follow Mohamod does not deserve the right to exsit period! Until the rest of the Arab world stops using the Plastinins as connon fodder in thier war to extremiate the Jews, stop teaching the hate, they'll prosper.

The New country of Palestine could be the Jewel of the Middle East if they just turned thier energy on making thier new country prosper instead of using all of the money, resources given to them to kill anyone who isn't a fopllower of Islam.

[PercyVere]

Well Percy,
Its only been the Jews who have been held accountable time after time while your beloved Palestinians have been given a free pass over & over for 40 plus years.A "free pass"? Are you kidding me? Which country has been able to ignore all those UN resolutions down through the years thanks largely to US support ... now THAT'S a free pass.

And by the way, I have no particular love for the Palestinians or for islam. But I do have some humanity left, and I recognise inhumane treatment when I see it.

[CMike11]

Try discussing the area controlled by Hamas. Try discussing the area attacked by Israel recently.

And what has the West Bank got to do with those trapped in the Gaza ghetto? Are you saying it dilutes the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza somehow?

Sorry, your ducking and weaving won't wash with me.

Hamas, and the rest of the arab terrorists, infest the west bank too.

The west bank is quite large.

I think it's not being honest to make it look like that its just gaza we are talking about, when we are not.

Here is a map. The west bank is quite big.

http://www.sitesatlas.com/Maps/Maps/603.htm

[CMike11]

A "free pass"? Are you kidding me? Which country has been able to ignore all those UN resolutions down through the years thanks largely to US support ... now THAT'S a free pass.

And by the way, I have no particular love for the Palestinians or for islam. But I do have some humanity left, and I recognise inhumane treatment when I see it.

It's the security counsel measures that actually mean something.

The head of the UN now is a Libyan.

[PercyVere]

Hamas, and the rest of the arab terrorists, infest the west bank too.

The west bank is quite large.

I think it's not being honest to make it look like that its just gaza we are talking about, when we are not.

Here is a map. The west bank is quite big.

http://www.sitesatlas.com/Maps/Maps/603.htmNow, for a cookie, how much of the West Bank is controlled by the Palestinians?

And once again I ask, what has this got to do with those Palestinians stuck in Gaza.

[PercyVere]

The head of the UN now is a Libyan.And? Are you suggesting the US has had a better record these last few years?

[CMike11]

Now, for a cookie, how much of the West Bank is controlled by the Palestinians?

And once again I ask, what has this got to do with those Palestinians stuck in Gaza.

You responded to my comment that Israel is the size of NJ and the arab countries are about the size of the US.

You then mentioned only gaza, when making your "area comparisons".

However, the west bank and gaza are controlled by the palestinians.

Therefore, the comparison leaving out the west bank is deceptive.

[CMike11]

And? Are you suggesting the US has had a better record these last few years?

A better record of what?

[PercyVere]

A better record of what?Usage of torture and the operation of torture camps, human rights, rendition flights, activities intended to destabilise govts, use of violence and threats of violence to achieve goals, support for corrupt regimes, general imperialism etc. etc.

High horse? Nope!

[PercyVere]

You responded to my comment that Israel is the size of NJ and the arab countries are about the size of the US.

You then mentioned only gaza, when making your "area comparisons".

However, the west bank and gaza are controlled by the palestinians.

Therefore, the comparison leaving out the west bank is deceptive.Look at the thread title dude !! Hamas ... we're talking Hamas and Gaza. Hamas does not control the West Bank. Israel did not bomb the crap out of the West Bank. I was not talking of the plight of the people in the West Bank. It is you who is trying to be deceptive.

[CMike11]

Usage of torture and the operation of torture camps, human rights, rendition flights, activities intended to destabilise govts, use of violence and threats of violence to achieve goals, support for corrupt regimes, general imperialism etc. etc.

High horse? Nope!

Ah I see.

Then YES the has a much GREATER record than the UN.

[PercyVere]

Ah I see.

Then YES the has a much GREATER record than the UN.Clever response.

[CMike11]

Look at the thread title dude !! Hamas ... we're talking Hamas and Gaza. Hamas does not control the West Bank. Israel did not bomb the crap out of the West Bank. I was not talking of the plight of the people in the West Bank. It is you who is trying to be deceptive.

Hamas does infest the west bank as well. The difference is that Hamas smuggles missiles from Egypt which is on the border of Gaza.

The west bank is just as bad. The terrorists are just as bad there.

[CMike11]

Clever response.

Well at least you have shown that you not just hate Israel but the US too.

[mp95bravo]

Hamas will only stop when their members are all dead. This is a fact.

Peace in the middle east will only occur by 1 or 2 ways, no other.

1. There must be either a super-nation/state in the area where Arab and Israeli are equal under the law.
2. One side is dead.

There are no other possibillites for peace. I guarantee you that in 100 years if there are still the same political divisions you will hear of them fighting in the area.

Hell they've already been fighting each other over there ever since one guy picked up a rock and hit the first Jew thousands of years ago.

[PercyVere]

However, the west bank and gaza are controlled by the palestinians.

Therefore, the comparison leaving out the west bank is deceptive.Just so we are clear ... the Palestinians control about 17% of the West Bank ... and 'control' is always at the discretion of Israel. Not that we are discussing the West Bank, or anything.

[PercyVere]

Hell they've already been fighting each other over there ever since one guy picked up a rock and hit the first Jew thousands of years ago.Nothing much has changed ... one side still picks up rocks to throw, but the other cowers in a Merkava.

[PercyVere]

Hamas will only stop when their members are all dead. This is a fact. I suspect the Israelis would die to defend their country too. No shame in that.

[PATRIOT1871]

A "free pass"? Are you kidding me? Which country has been able to ignore all those UN resolutions down through the years thanks largely to US support ... now THAT'S a free pass.

And by the way, I have no particular love for the Palestinians or for islam. But I do have some humanity left, and I recognise inhumane treatment when I see it.

Percy,
you have to stop cherry picking, If isreal had followed the U.N. there would be no Jews left alive in the ME. If your gonna respond to my post directly, respond to the whole content - sheesh, you sound just like a typical wacky far out lib, man - grow-up.

[the_fog]

The below essay describes the principal factors that account for the apparent impossibility of solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?

The incursion into Gaza by the IDF in March (2007) and the apparent lack of western political intervention is symbolic of the dynamics that are responsible for the conflict. This essay will suggest that there are two principal factors that drive the apparent impossibility of solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Firstly, the Zionist agenda from its inception and continued implementation to create a Jewish only state in the region. Secondly, the absence of a balance of power between Israel and its Arab neighbours. The method this essay will present its main arguments is by demonstrating that the foundation of Israel was based on a Jewish only state without a state for Palestinians. Also the importance of the ‘balance of power’ from a theoretical perspective will be presented, and its absence in the Middle East will be demonstrated.

A distorted narration of past events has often been used as an effective tool of propaganda to influence political and public opinion. Chomsky (2005) argues that historical events have been changed or even have been erased to indoctrinate people with ideas and views that suit political objectives. The predominantly presented view of the ‘Palestinian-Israeli conflict’ is a case example of this. According to the main version of events the Jews following their persecution by Europeans returned to their national homeland, Israel, which was an uninhabited land. After their ‘settlement’ in their ancestral homeland they were attacked by a stronger Arab population, which they managed to defeat and repel (The new world encyclopaedia 1986). Following this view point Fraser (1995) suggests that ‘in the 1880s neither Palestine nor Israel existed’ (pg 2). Furthermore according to this version of events the Arabs continue to attack the ‘venerable’ Jewish state and are the cause of hostilities (AIPAC 2007).
However, the evidence suggests that prior to the creation of Israel Palestine was populated by Palestinians and the cause of the conflict was their expulsion. Pappe (2007), a prominent Israeli historian, argues that former Palestine was inhabited by a flourishing Arab population (in the region of 1.5 million) predominantly made up of Muslims; however, there were also Christian and Jewish communities. Furthermore the establishment of a Jewish state itself does not account the continued conflict. If Israel had kept its indigenous population and had gave them equal rights today’s problems may never have occurred (Hart 2007 a). Rather the continued cause of the conflict and the apparent impossibility of resolving it is the founding principal of Israel; the Jewish conquerors never intended to be just occupiers and rulers; rather their goal was to dissolve Palestine and create a Jewish majority state. Pappe (2007) suggests that the origins of Israel were based on driving out the Arab population to create an ethnically ‘pure’ Jewish state. In the same manner Guyatt (1998) argues that ‘Theodor Herzl, the founder of the modern ‘resettlement’ movement, insisted in the Jewish state on the need for Jews to live apart from non-Jews’ (pg 2). Furthermore the concept of the creation of a separate state for the Palestinians was not part of any Zionist plan, rather former Palestine was going to be split between the Jews who would take 80% and the remaining 20% would become a part of Jordan. Pappe adds that following the end of the Second World War King Abdullah of Jordan ‘reached an agreement in principle with the Jewish agency over how to divide post-mandatory Palestine between them’ (pg 43). The only way that Jews would become the majority in the land that they controlled would by driving out the Arabs. Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) argue that the creation of Israel in 1948 involved explicit acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, massacres, and rapes by Jews’ (pg 98). Furthermore Pappe (2007) cites a catalogue of documented events from early reconnaissance missions to the selection of the villages that would be ethnically cleansed. A statement from Ben-Gurion in 1948 to other Zionist leaders is telling of the fate that became of former Palestine,

There is a need now for strong and brutal reaction. We need to be accurate about timing, place and those we hit. If we accuse a family- we need to harm them without mercy, women and children included. Other wise, this is not an effective reaction… There is no need to distinguish between guilty and not guilty. ( Cited in Mearsheimer and Walt 2007 pg 99)

Contemporary Zionists still deny the Palestinians their ‘right of return’ to their homeland in former Palestine (AIPAC 2007). This principal of a Jewish only state that occupies 80% of former Palestine is still the principal factor driving the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Guyatt (1998) asserts that ‘…it is more accurate to see Zionism’s challenge to Palestinian life, at the individual and social level, as the primary cause of hostility’ (pg 3). In the same manner Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) argue that the fundamental Zionists ideas that fuelled the initial ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people still continues to drive Israel’s resistance to the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Zionism’s political ambitions would be meaningless if there was a balance of power between nation states in the region. Jackson and Sorenson (2007) suggest that ‘…for classical realists the balance of power is a desirable institution and a good thing to strive for because it prevents hegemonic world domination by any one great power’ (pg 71). The balance of power is a structure in which dominant states strive to maintain equal amounts of power, thus making the possibility of war and conflict remote. Military endeavours involving states with equal capabilities are high risk opposed to a dominant state engaging in warfare with a weaker state. Mearsheimer (1990) argues that ‘deterrence is most likely to hold when the costs and risks of going to war are obviously great’ (pg 16). In the same manner Clausewitz (1997) suggests that the higher the risk the less unlikely states will engage in warfare. The cold war is a classical example of a balance of power; each state, America and Russia, did not engage in warfare because victory even if it was possible would come at price not worth fighting.

Often Israel is presented as equal to its enemies; Bergman (2003) suggests that ‘the balance sheet, after more than fifty years of Israeli-Arab conflict, indicates that on the battle field there has been no clear victor...’ (pg 238). However, the evidence challenges such a notion; Israel has won every war since its foundation and has continued to increase its territory. Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) argue that ‘Its [Israel’s] conventional forces are far more superior to those of its neighbours, and it is the only state in the region with nuclear weapons’ (pg 83). Furthermore the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons means that a state without equivalent munitions can never win a conventional war with Israel (Nicholson 2002).

In addition to Israel’s unmatched military strength they have an unequal influence over the world’s only superpower. Hart (2007a) argues that ‘It is the case that at critical moments the Zionist lobby was, and is, more the maker of policy for the Middle East than American Presidents and their administrations’ (pg xxxii) Furthermore Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) suggest that the 2003 war with Iraq as well as the current political campaign against Iran, is driven by pro-Israeli lobby groups that wish to make Israel the sole political force in the region.

An example of Israel’s influence over the US can be seen during the 1973 Israeli- Arab war. Hart (2007a) reports that during the Yom Kippur War in 1973 Kissinger held back an emergency shipment of weapons to Israel in attempt to bring them to the negotiation table with the Arabs. However, Hart suggests that the plan backfired because Israel threatened it would drop nuclear bombs over Cairo and Damascus if its demands were not meet (pg 253).

The evidence that has been presented suggests that the aims of the founders of Israel were to cleanse Palestine of its indigenous people, and to create a Jewish only state. Furthermore it was argued that this is a principal factor fuelling the conflict and creating an irresolvable situation. Furthermore the importance the ‘balance of power’ was presented from a theoretical perspective and then illustrated from an empirical example, the cold war. It was then suggested that the political dynamics between Israel and its Arab neighbours lack such a balance, and that this absence is another factor not only driving the conflict but also creating an insolvable situation.

[CMike11]

The reason is actually very simple.

1) The arab leadership doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

2) The arab leadership are terrorists whom are terrorists, targeting civilians

3) The arabs in judea and samaria are just a tool for the arab leadership to use.

4) Israel isn't accepting the arab leadership's quest to destroy Israel

5) It's Israel's land

[PercyVere]

5) It's Israel's landNot even Israel claims it's all their land. Why do you do so?

[CMike11]

Not even Israel claims it's all their land. Why do you do so?

Because it's all their land :rolleyes:

[Jacob_Rising]

I recognise inhumane treatment when I see it.So says you.

In 2005 when Israel Unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and rockets started falling all around the tiny border of Sderot, People living under constant air raid sirens, running for bomb shelters and children everywhere with Post Traumatic stress syndrome-The World remained silent.

War is Inhumane, especially when your fighting with an enemy who uses it's civilizations as shields.

Years and years of inhumane crimes against Israelis and nobody says Nothing.

Years of missles flying everyday and when a war finally does come around they point at Israel and say,'' LOOK HOW INHUMANE!!''

Where is all the outrage these last 4 years of missles flying against Israel?

Who would allow such things to go on?

Any counrty out there in the world would completely destroy an enemy who continuously fires missles into their country.

Ridculous.

[Jacob_Rising]

I guess the main reason the plight of the Jewish refugees is seen as less dire is that they had a country to go to ... all they had to do was show up in Israel, some Palestinian farmer would be kicked off his land, some apartments would go up, and they'd be good to go ... citizenship granted by racist laws which excluded natives based on ethnic origin.

Palestinians refugees, on the other hand, had no place to go. They are universally unwelcome.Had a place to go?

You mean a place where every country surrounding you just declared war on you while you were fleeing the land just trying to survive?

Kicked out of land your family lived on for thousands of years, your property seized and running for your life to a small strip of land where everyone around you wanted you dead?

At least they had a place to go.

But you are correct saying that the Palistinians are universally unwelcome and why is that?

Why wont Jordan admit that they are a part of their country, why isn't Egypt admitting that they are a part of their country.

You and everyone else blame it on Israel who ran for their lives when they were kicked out by the millions and many didn't make it.

Why wont people admit that Jordan is forcing the refugee camps of Palistine in refusing them citizenship?

The Arab countries are forcing them to remain starving refugees in order to make them look like a victims to the world allthewhile blaming Israel.

Israel is the only ones helping them, the Arab countries surrounding them are sending them arms instead of Jobs, Bullits instead of Bread, so that they can remain forced victims abused by the Arab countries.

[Jacob_Rising]

The below essay describes the principal factors that account for the apparent impossibility of solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?

The incursion into Gaza by the IDF in March (2007) and the apparent lack of western political intervention is symbolic of the dynamics that are responsible for the conflict. This essay will suggest that there are two principal factors that drive the apparent impossibility of solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Firstly, the Zionist agenda from its inception and continued implementation to create a Jewish only state in the region. Secondly, the absence of a balance of power between Israel and its Arab neighbours. The method this essay will present its main arguments is by demonstrating that the foundation of Israel was based on a Jewish only state without a state for Palestinians. Also the importance of the ‘balance of power’ from a theoretical perspective will be presented, and its absence in the Middle East will be demonstrated.

A distorted narration of past events has often been used as an effective tool of propaganda to influence political and public opinion. Chomsky (2005) argues that historical events have been changed or even have been erased to indoctrinate people with ideas and views that suit political objectives. The predominantly presented view of the ‘Palestinian-Israeli conflict’ is a case example of this. According to the main version of events the Jews following their persecution by Europeans returned to their national homeland, Israel, which was an uninhabited land. After their ‘settlement’ in their ancestral homeland they were attacked by a stronger Arab population, which they managed to defeat and repel (The new world encyclopaedia 1986). Following this view point Fraser (1995) suggests that ‘in the 1880s neither Palestine nor Israel existed’ (pg 2). Furthermore according to this version of events the Arabs continue to attack the ‘venerable’ Jewish state and are the cause of hostilities (AIPAC 2007).
However, the evidence suggests that prior to the creation of Israel Palestine was populated by Palestinians and the cause of the conflict was their expulsion. Pappe (2007), a prominent Israeli historian, argues that former Palestine was inhabited by a flourishing Arab population (in the region of 1.5 million) predominantly made up of Muslims; however, there were also Christian and Jewish communities. Furthermore the establishment of a Jewish state itself does not account the continued conflict. If Israel had kept its indigenous population and had gave them equal rights today’s problems may never have occurred (Hart 2007 a). Rather the continued cause of the conflict and the apparent impossibility of resolving it is the founding principal of Israel; the Jewish conquerors never intended to be just occupiers and rulers; rather their goal was to dissolve Palestine and create a Jewish majority state. Pappe (2007) suggests that the origins of Israel were based on driving out the Arab population to create an ethnically ‘pure’ Jewish state. In the same manner Guyatt (1998) argues that ‘Theodor Herzl, the founder of the modern ‘resettlement’ movement, insisted in the Jewish state on the need for Jews to live apart from non-Jews’ (pg 2). Furthermore the concept of the creation of a separate state for the Palestinians was not part of any Zionist plan, rather former Palestine was going to be split between the Jews who would take 80% and the remaining 20% would become a part of Jordan. Pappe adds that following the end of the Second World War King Abdullah of Jordan ‘reached an agreement in principle with the Jewish agency over how to divide post-mandatory Palestine between them’ (pg 43). The only way that Jews would become the majority in the land that they controlled would by driving out the Arabs. Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) argue that the creation of Israel in 1948 involved explicit acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, massacres, and rapes by Jews’ (pg 98). Furthermore Pappe (2007) cites a catalogue of documented events from early reconnaissance missions to the selection of the villages that would be ethnically cleansed. A statement from Ben-Gurion in 1948 to other Zionist leaders is telling of the fate that became of former Palestine,

There is a need now for strong and brutal reaction. We need to be accurate about timing, place and those we hit. If we accuse a family- we need to harm them without mercy, women and children included. Other wise, this is not an effective reaction… There is no need to distinguish between guilty and not guilty. ( Cited in Mearsheimer and Walt 2007 pg 99)

Contemporary Zionists still deny the Palestinians their ‘right of return’ to their homeland in former Palestine (AIPAC 2007). This principal of a Jewish only state that occupies 80% of former Palestine is still the principal factor driving the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Guyatt (1998) asserts that ‘…it is more accurate to see Zionism’s challenge to Palestinian life, at the individual and social level, as the primary cause of hostility’ (pg 3). In the same manner Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) argue that the fundamental Zionists ideas that fuelled the initial ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people still continues to drive Israel’s resistance to the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Zionism’s political ambitions would be meaningless if there was a balance of power between nation states in the region. Jackson and Sorenson (2007) suggest that ‘…for classical realists the balance of power is a desirable institution and a good thing to strive for because it prevents hegemonic world domination by any one great power’ (pg 71). The balance of power is a structure in which dominant states strive to maintain equal amounts of power, thus making the possibility of war and conflict remote. Military endeavours involving states with equal capabilities are high risk opposed to a dominant state engaging in warfare with a weaker state. Mearsheimer (1990) argues that ‘deterrence is most likely to hold when the costs and risks of going to war are obviously great’ (pg 16). In the same manner Clausewitz (1997) suggests that the higher the risk the less unlikely states will engage in warfare. The cold war is a classical example of a balance of power; each state, America and Russia, did not engage in warfare because victory even if it was possible would come at price not worth fighting.

Often Israel is presented as equal to its enemies; Bergman (2003) suggests that ‘the balance sheet, after more than fifty years of Israeli-Arab conflict, indicates that on the battle field there has been no clear victor...’ (pg 238). However, the evidence challenges such a notion; Israel has won every war since its foundation and has continued to increase its territory. Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) argue that ‘Its [Israel’s] conventional forces are far more superior to those of its neighbours, and it is the only state in the region with nuclear weapons’ (pg 83). Furthermore the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons means that a state without equivalent munitions can never win a conventional war with Israel (Nicholson 2002).

In addition to Israel’s unmatched military strength they have an unequal influence over the world’s only superpower. Hart (2007a) argues that ‘It is the case that at critical moments the Zionist lobby was, and is, more the maker of policy for the Middle East than American Presidents and their administrations’ (pg xxxii) Furthermore Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) suggest that the 2003 war with Iraq as well as the current political campaign against Iran, is driven by pro-Israeli lobby groups that wish to make Israel the sole political force in the region.

An example of Israel’s influence over the US can be seen during the 1973 Israeli- Arab war. Hart (2007a) reports that during the Yom Kippur War in 1973 Kissinger held back an emergency shipment of weapons to Israel in attempt to bring them to the negotiation table with the Arabs. However, Hart suggests that the plan backfired because Israel threatened it would drop nuclear bombs over Cairo and Damascus if its demands were not meet (pg 253).

The evidence that has been presented suggests that the aims of the founders of Israel were to cleanse Palestine of its indigenous people, and to create a Jewish only state. Furthermore it was argued that this is a principal factor fuelling the conflict and creating an irresolvable situation. Furthermore the importance the ‘balance of power’ was presented from a theoretical perspective and then illustrated from an empirical example, the cold war. It was then suggested that the political dynamics between Israel and its Arab neighbours lack such a balance, and that this absence is another factor not only driving the conflict but also creating an insolvable situation.Anyone can come in here and say whatever they want.

If your against Israel and for Palistine you have no rational debate, No matter what direction you come from, You have no rational debate.

The fact still remains that Palistinians and Arabs will not recognize the right for Jews to exist at all.

You have no debate until people start believing rationally and alllowing all races to exist.

[PercyVere]

So says you.

In 2005 when Israel Unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and rockets started falling all around the tiny border of Sderot, People living under constant air raid sirens, running for bomb shelters and children everywhere with Post Traumatic stress syndrome-The World remained silent.

War is Inhumane, especially when your fighting with an enemy who uses it's civilizations as shields.

Years and years of inhumane crimes against Israelis and nobody says Nothing.

Years of missles flying everyday and when a war finally does come around they point at Israel and say,'' LOOK HOW INHUMANE!!''

Where is all the outrage these last 4 years of missles flying against Israel?

Who would allow such things to go on?

Any counrty out there in the world would completely destroy an enemy who continuously fires missles into their country.

Ridculous.I fully agree that the rocket attacks on Israel are unacceptable. However, there are many reasons why the world has little sympathy with Israel.

First, we have the casualty score card:
As an example, let's take the figure for "children killed in the last year"
Israeli children killed by rockets from Gaza = 0
Gazan children killed by Israel = 437


And you complain that Israelis in Sderot have to live with air raid sirens, running to shelters and PTSD. Believe me, that is nothing at all compared to what the Gazans have to endure ... herded into a ghetto, completely disenfranchised, bombed and invaded regularly, harrassed daily, and with no real option to leave. Did I mention the home razings? ... the desctuction of what little infrastructure they had ... the school bombings? The refugee camps?

And you talk to me about PTSD? Give me a break. To cap it all, the residents of Sderot live where they do by choice, the residents of Gaza do not.

[PercyVere]

The fact still remains that Palistinians and Arabs will not recognize the right for Jews to exist at all.Neither side does a very good job at recognising the other's right to exist.

Exhibit A: Gaza. A ghetto created and maintained by Israel.

[PercyVere]

Had a place to go?

You mean a place where every country surrounding you just declared war on you while you were fleeing the land just trying to survive?

Kicked out of land your family lived on for thousands of years, your property seized and running for your life to a small strip of land where everyone around you wanted you dead?You have just accurately described the fate of the Palestinians ... kicked off their land, their property seized, and running for their lives to a small strip of land called Gaza.

At least they had a place to go.True, but Gaza is not much of a place.

But you are correct saying that the Palistinians are universally unwelcome and why is that?Being disliked as a people does not justify abuse of your people as a whole ... jeez, do I have to argue this point with a jewish sympathiser, surely to god I don't.

Why wont Jordan admit that they are a part of their countryAre you putting forward an argument to return the West Bank to Jordan? Anyway, Jordan already has nearly 2 million Palestinian refugees - you want them to take even more? Like so many Palestinian-haters, you have not even taken the Palestinian viewpoint into consideration - they simply don't want to be part of Jordan.


The Arab countries are forcing them to remain starving refugees in order to make them look like a victims to the world allthewhile blaming Israel.I think we can nearly agree on this. The Arab world is happy to use the Palestinians as pawns.

Israel is the only ones helping them, the Arab countries surrounding them are sending them arms instead of Jobs, Bullits instead of Bread, so that they can remain forced victims abused by the Arab countries.If Israel came to raze my home, I'd prefer to have a gun than a loaf of bread. And let's be clear, the country doing the abusing is Israel - that fact is as clear as the nose on your face. Yes, the Arabs are using them as pawns, but the abusing country is Israel .

[Streelsh]

I fully agree that the rocket attacks on Israel are unacceptable. However, there are many reasons why the world has little sympathy with Israel.

First, we have the casualty score card:
As an example, let's take the figure for "children killed in the last year"
Israeli children killed by rockets from Gaza = 0
Gazan children killed by Israel = 437


And you complain that Israelis in Sderot have to live with air raid sirens, running to shelters and PTSD. Believe me, that is nothing at all compared to what the Gazans have to endure ... herded into a ghetto, completely disenfranchised, bombed and invaded regularly, harrassed daily, and with no real option to leave. Did I mention the home razings? ... the desctuction of what little infrastructure they had ... the school bombings? The refugee camps?

And you talk to me about PTSD? Give me a break. To cap it all, the residents of Sderot live where they do by choice, the residents of Gaza do not.

You forgot the MOST important reason (12 LETTERS):


A-N-T-I-S-E-M-I-T-I-S-M

[PercyVere]

You forgot the MOST important reason (12 LETTERS):


A-N-T-I-S-E-M-I-T-I-S-MYep, there's no denying it's a factor. There also no denying the pro-Israeli camp tends to overuse the anti-semitism card - any criticism at all of Israel's behaviour will usually bring out the tired old calls of anti-semitism. In fact, all criticism of Israel must be framed and worded very carefully to avoid that very thing.

Overall, I would say the 'anti-semitism' card very much benefits Israel, and shields it from the criticism it deserves.

[Streelsh]

Yep, there's no denying it's a factor. There also no denying the pro-Israeli camp tends to overuse the anti-semitism card - any criticism at all of Israel's behaviour will usually bring out the tired old calls of anti-semitism. In fact, all criticism of Israel must be framed and worded very carefully to avoid that very thing.

Overall, I would say the 'anti-semitism' card very much benefits Israel, and shields it from the criticism it deserves.

So when the HAMAS Covenant which speaks of "Our struggle against the JEWS "(Words are the Covenants the emphasis is mine) (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp see "Introduction") they are NOT being anti-semitic; they are merely benefiting Israel ????? Hardly !

[PercyVere]

So when the HAMAS Covenant which speaks of "Our struggle against the JEWS "(Words are the Covenants the emphasis is mine) (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp see "Introduction") they are NOT being anti-semitic; they are merely benefiting Israel ????? Hardly !What has your post got to do with my post?

[soldier_scotty]

I have two words for Israel: "Disproportionate Response"

YES! This is exactly what Israel needs to do! Disproportionate Response! They need to send a crushing response to the rocket attacks. Lay waste to Hamas and even to Palestine in gaza as a response. I know this is not what you meant. Too bad. It is what is needed. It is us verses them. They will not accept living along side Israel. So they must be wiped off the map! Next please?

[the_fog]

YES! This is exactly what Israel needs to do! Disproportionate Response! They need to send a crushing response to the rocket attacks. Lay waste to Hamas and even to Palestine in gaza as a response. I know this is not what you meant. Too bad. It is what is needed. It is us verses them. They will not accept living along side Israel. So they must be wiped off the map! Next please?

I wounder how long it take for someone to be arrested under terrorist lawS if they made a similar comment against Israel or the US?

[PercyVere]

I wounder how long it take for someone to be arrested under terrorist lawS if they made a similar comment against Israel or the US?... or how long they would last on this forum if they asked for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? Suggesting that Gaza is wiped off the map is acceptable, though.

[the_fog]

... or how long they would last on this forum if they asked for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? Suggesting that Gaza is wiped off the map is acceptable, though.

I guess the word that describes such behavior is hypocrisy.