Teacher Unions

[mastertech79]

How the Teacher Unions are Destroying American Education

[mastertech79]

It is the same as for any service provided by government. There is no market process that rewards success and punishes failure or that even holds down costs.

[pubschteacher]

It is the same as for any service provided by government. There is no market process that rewards success and punishes failure or that even holds down costs.




When you go to your job each day, do you plan on doing the least amount of work possible? Is the work you do get done, subpar by design? Do you plan on being the worst employee you can be? Is the pride you take in your work only influenced by how much money you make?
If none of this applies, why is it that so many critics in here, assume that teachers go to work with that mindset?

[blimpo]

How the Teacher Unions are Destroying American Education



I guess the fact that the dumbest have the most kids and that these kids are lazy, greedy, unmotivated, and living in disfuctional homes has nothing to do with it...

[Gregor]

I love my union. I love my job. I am constantly challenging myself and growing and changing to meet the needs of my students. I, btw, love my students and the parents who birthed and raised them. Sorry to be such a downer!

[PhantomPholly]

When I worked in a steel mill I loved the Union, too. I could disappear for hours at a time, even take a nap - and still get paid.

But, after a while this little voice started bothering me. When will this catch up with me? Little did I know it, but I was one of the 20-30% of humans imbued with a "conscience." Too, after a while I got mad when I found out the most incompetent drunkard in the place with more "seniority" than I had would get a pay raise up to the same rate as me if I stepped in to help out when someone higher up the seniority ladder went ill - even though I was the only one capable of doing that job. "That's stupid," I thought, that everyone else gets a raise when I'm the only one who can do the job. Shouldn't all that extra money go to me for actually being capable and getting the job done?

But no, the Union does not reward productivity, creativity, or success. It only rewards years of service. And, lacking motivation for anything other than "showing up," most people will eventually get complacent, or at the very best become over-cautious in performing their job to the letter of the description (never beyond!!!!).

So, while the poster above me may be one of those rare individuals who naturally challenges themselves, I have to ask - to what higher level would s/he challenge him/herself if not in a Union shop?

I can't help but believe that they would have done far more with themselves if they had been in an environment where incompetence and laziness meant no job; or where creativity and initiative meant promotion above their (seniority) peers.

You cannot truly know excellence unless you risk failure.

[chica1846]

So, while the poster above me may be one of those rare individuals who naturally challenges themselves, I have to ask - to what higher level would s/he challenge him/herself if not in a Union shop?

I can't help but believe that they would have done far more with themselves if they had been in an environment where incompetence and laziness meant no job; or where creativity and initiative meant promotion above their (seniority) peers.

You cannot truly know excellence unless you risk failure.

And to what higher level would those around also be striving for?

It's hard to respect unions because of the number of incompetent workers it has championed and promoted. They are, I believe, a prime reason the "Peter Principle" is alive and well in a LOT of government jobs. It is a sobering, maddening, and incredibly frustrating phenomenon to observe at my workplace.

[jimjames418]

I love my union. I love my job. I am constantly challenging myself and growing and changing to meet the needs of my students. I, btw, love my students and the parents who birthed and raised them. Sorry to be such a downer!
Your use of the word "love" indicates you may need help. Love means a strong emotional attachment to the the thing you are talking about.

[mklazarus]

Unions support mediocrity. To challenge this is an exercise in ignorance.

When was the last time you met anyone truly successful that was in a union other than the union executives themselves?

[2Parties1GlobalistGoal]

The government is the root of the problem, not the union. The union is a symptom.

[chris13]

I truly believe that, once upon a time, unions had a great purpose. Workers were being exploited, overworked, put in extremely dangerous situations, etc.
But now unions have evolved into money grubbing organizations concerned not with the real welfare of workers, but how they can line their own pockets. And union workers, for the most part, fall in line with whatever the union tells them. The UAW is the prime example of a union that isn't needed and is bringing an entire industry to its knees. And does anyone remember Eastern Airlines? That company was ruined by unions. The Baggage Handlers went on strike, and no other union (pilots, flight attendants, machinists) would cross the picket line. It doesn't take long to go bankrupt when you have payments due on 1,000 airplanes and you can't make a dime.

[Hobson's Choice]

This union has got a hammerlock on what is taught in every classroom in this country. This has gained them political control. The Republicans can easily offer a better education including conceptual Math and Science

[ben41281]

I truly believe that, once upon a time, unions had a great purpose. Workers were being exploited, overworked, put in extremely dangerous situations, etc.

Now we have laws that protect against those problems, so why do we need unions? Answer, too many people are spineless and won't stand up for themselves! Instead they let the union bully their company into bankruptcy. If they had a pair, they could get the raises, bennefits, works conditions, or what ever they want. With out destroying their company in the course of getting it. It Might take a little longer to get what you want that way, but it sure beats having no job.



But now unions have evolved into money grubbing organizations concerned not with the real welfare of workers, but how they can line their own pockets.

Hence the big union convention in Miami, at a posh resort! Need I say more?


And union workers, for the most part, fall in line with whatever the union tells them. The UAW is the prime example of a union that isn't needed and is bringing an entire industry to its knees.

Yep! The big three are going bankrupt! Looks like another industry that will cost all of us tax payers a lot of money. All because of the unions!





And does anyone remember Eastern Airlines?
That company was ruined by unions. The Baggage Handlers went on strike, and no other union (pilots, flight attendants, machinists) would cross the picket line. It doesn't take long to go bankrupt when you have payments due on 1,000 airplanes and you can't make a dime.

I remember helping my dad get his tools and tool chest out of his workstation when Eastern went belly up! And, the picketers swore at us simply for crossing the line to do that. Did they expect my dad to leave thousands of dollars of tools behind?

[ben41281]

When you go to your job each day, do you plan on doing the least amount of work possible?

Nope! Because like most people, the harder I work and the more I work, the more money I make. If you'd like to make more money, can you? You don't get payed based on how many kids pass do you? Because maybe if teachers did, there would be more kids actually being taught rather than indoctrinated!




Is the work you do get done, subpar by design?

Nope! Because if I do subpar work, I don't get payed!



Do you plan on being the worst employee you can be?

Nope! Because that would me I'd get fired! Now I happen to own my business, so I can't really fire myself. But my customers can, they simply won't use my company for their needs.



Is the pride you take in your work only influenced by how much money you make?

Nope! But, how much money I make is a valid measure of how good a job I did. If i sucked at what I do, I wouldn't get payed as well. Merrit based pay!




If none of this applies, why is it that so many critics in here, assume that teachers go to work with that mindset?

You don't support paying based on merrit? I sure do! If you suck at teaching, why should you get payed more? Or if your the best at teaching, why should you get less simply because of seniority? I really don't care if someone has been on the job for 1 year or 10 years, if they are worth more to my business I pay them more to keep them from going to the competition. But, school unions don't seem to believe in competition! They can't stand the idea of school choice (competition), vouchers (competition), or merrit based pay (competition). Seems they don't much care for competition!

[Talk2Bill]

I do not think they are. I think the problems are bigger than the unions. Which are only enforcing the established guidelines set by the schools and districts.

one issue is over getting rid of bad teachers. the steps the schools have to do as a matter of district policy are so convoluted that they are very difficult to do correctly.

Same goes for expelling kids or sending them to an alternative school for behavior.

now the reason the US schools are ranked so low is due to how we treat the vast majority as if they are college bound. This is clear in how the standardized tests are evaluated.

Another issue is the lack of disciplinary authority the teachers and schools have.

It is all a big mess, it needs reform, or rather it needs to be set back to how it was 20 to 30 years ago.

education my be an entitlement but that entitlement should be lost if you are not willing to follow basic rules of conduct.

[pubschteacher]

Nope! Because like most people, the harder I work and the more I work, the more money I make. If you'd like to make more money, can you? You don't get payed based on how many kids pass do you? Because maybe if teachers did, there would be more kids actually being taught rather than indoctrinated!Nope! Because if I do subpar work, I don't get payed! Nope! Because that would me I'd get fired! Now I happen to own my business, so I can't really fire myself. But my customers can, they simply won't use my company for their needs.Nope! But, how much money I make is a valid measure of how good a job I did. If i sucked at what I do, I wouldn't get payed as well. Merrit based pay!

Well, at least we know that pride in your work is not your motivation. Too bad, you are missing out. I guess we were raised differently, my father taught me to do a good job, no matter what. Pride in your work, an old school value instilled in me from an early age, is why I work at the level I do. Based on your rant (see above), I wouldn't expect you to understand.

You don't support paying based on merrit? I sure do! If you suck at teaching, why should you get payed more? Or if your the best at teaching, why should you get less simply because of seniority? I really don't care if someone has been on the job for 1 year or 10 years, if they are worth more to my business I pay them more to keep them from going to the competition. But, school unions don't seem to believe in competition! They can't stand the idea of school choice (competition), vouchers (competition), or merrit based pay (competition). Seems they don't much care for competition!

I don't support it for a very good reason. Students are not product and measuring individual success is very difficult. For example, do you think that I should receive more money based on the success of my students on every test they take. Now, bear in mind, I teach mostly Advanced Placement classes, so my students are going to be the high achieving, dedicated, strong work ethic type. Now, let's say that you are a first year teacher and you are teaching regular ed classes. In thoses classes, you have 5-6 special education students (federally mandated inclusion), 4-6 more with 504 plans and 2-3 with either emotional or behavioral problems. Now, are you still sure you want your pay tied to their success on the battery of standardized tests?
We have complete school of choice in Colorado, parents can send their kids to any public school they want, provided their is room in that building. Vouchers have been voted down 12 times in the last 30 years, those initiatives were beat by big numbers and although there are a lot of teachers, they could not have possibly voted down by themselves, so the majority of citizens in those states were the ones against vouchers. Merit pay? Well, you figure out a way to use it fairly with the unbelievably diverse individuals found in most public schools and I will be the first to get behind it.

[ben41281]

Well, at least we know that pride in your work is not your motivation. Too bad, you are missing out on something very cool. I guess we were raised differently, my father taught me to do a good job, no matter what.

So how do you measure your success If it's not monatary? I got an idea, would you continue to do the job you do, if you didn't get paid to do it? I bet not! If you would, your state could simply say they aren't going to pay teachers anymore, because they will do it no mater what!





I don't support it for a very good reason. Students are not product and measuring individual success is very difficult.

Not really. I think we can see improvement or not. If there is no improvement, should I still give you your next raise? Or should I assume you didn't do a good job?




For example, do you think that I should receive more money based on the success of my students on every test they take.

Why not? If you have a class that isn't showing any improvement, why would I give you a raise?




Now, bear in mind, I teach mostly Advanced Placement classes, so my students are going to be the high achieving, dedicated, strong work ethic type. Now, let's say that you are a first year teacher and you are teaching regular ed classes. In thoses classes, you have 5-6 special education students (federally mandated inclusion), 4-6 more with 504 plans and 2-3 with either emotional or behavioral problems. Now, are you still sure you want your pay tied to their success on the battery of standardized tests?

Regaurdless of what the make-up of your class, there should be a measurable amount of improvement over the average year. Now, do I say you should be dragged down for having special ed kids? No! But, you can't tell me that we can't measure their level of learning too!






We have complete school of choice in Colorado, parents can send their kids to any public school they want, provided their is room in that building.

Why would you limmit choice to only public schools? Like the monopoly do we?



Vouchers have been voted down 12 times in the last 30 years, those initiatives were beat by big numbers and although there are a lot of teachers, they could not have possibly voted down by themselves, so the majority of citizens in those states were the ones against vouchers.

Vouchers, we don't need no stinking vouchers! Yeah right! I bet there are many who would stand to gain from them. But, all to often people vote against them based on misinformation.





Merit pay? Well, you figure out a way to use it fairly with the unbelievably diverse individuals found in most public schools and I will be the first to get behind it.

Who says it has to be fair? And who determines weather it is fair or not? Every company in the business world (that is not over run by unions) pays based on merrit. If you suck at your job, you don't get a raise! Is it fair? Sure is! Oh yeah, if you really suck you get fired! Is that fair? Hell yes! I currently employ 30 people, and while I like all of them, I'd fire them if they didn't do their job! Nothing personal, but I didn't hire them out of charity!

[lawandorder]

Most students can learn from any teacher. A more interesting and vibrant teacher may engage more response. Again, while there may be a few "bad teachers", the majority of teachers teach to the best of their ability in view of what they have to work with, i.e., students who are not respectful, are lazy, undisciplined, unruly, and host of other issues. It isn't that teachers aren't teaching, it's that the students don't want to learn. I hear it every day where I teach. There are students who straight up will tell me, "no, I'm not doing it"...........I write them up. Next day, same thing. Students are not a commodity up for sale. They aren't "pieces" on an assembly line. Merit raises would make them such.

[pubschteacher]

So how do you measure your success If it's not monatary? I got an idea, would you continue to do the job you do, if you didn't get paid to do it? I bet not! If you would, your state could simply say they aren't going to pay teachers anymore, because they will do it no mater what!

I measure success by student learning, which I assess on a regular basis. I measure success by student success at the next level. I work as hard as I can everyday, more money wouldn't make me work any harder. Like I said, I don't expect you to understand.
Your example doesn't make sense. Everyone expects to be paid for their work, but the money is not what motivates me to do a good job, it merely pays the bills. We had a pay freeze a few years back and I didn't stop working hard because I was being paid less.

Not really. I think we can see improvement or not. If there is no improvement, should I still give you your next raise? Or should I assume you didn't do a good job?

Again, same example, my advanced placement students are going to show improvement, it's a no brainer, but public school classrooms are very diverse as far as work ethic, learning styles, etc. and applying some simple formula based on a standardized assessment is a poor way to measure. Thus the problem.

Why not? If you have a class that isn't showing any improvement, why would I give you a raise?
see above

Regaurdless of what the make-up of your class, there should be a measurable amount of improvement over the average year. Now, do I say you should be dragged down for having special ed kids? No! But, you can't tell me that we can't measure their level of learning too!

So is there going to be a different assessment for each individual kid? How much improvement is enough? Special education students are included in regular ed class, no choice, federal law. Do they take a different test? Do you teach the same material or is the teacher going to have to make up three or four different versions of each assignment and assessment? Your solution is simplistic and unrealistic and if you had spend any time in a public school classroom you would know that. Pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and complain and offer unrealistic solutions, much tougher to actually do the work.

Why would you limmit choice to only public schools? Like the monopoly do we?

Because it is public money and until the public thinks it is ok for public money to go to private schools, this is how it is going to have to be.

Vouchers, we don't need no stinking vouchers! Yeah right! I bet there are many who would stand to gain from them. But, all to often people vote against them based on misinformation.

Care to prove they vote against them because of misinformation. In the last voucher election in Michigan, the pro voucher side spent 14 million, twice as much as the other side and lost 60-40. In Utah, both sides spent millions to get their message out and the voucher initiative LOST in every single county in a very conservative state. If it makes you feel better to delude yourself that vouchers lose because of misinformation, fine, but 30 years of failure is still 30 years of failure.

Who says it has to be fair? And who determines weather it is fair or not? Every company in the business world (that is not over run by unions) pays based on merrit. If you suck at your job, you don't get a raise! Is it fair? Sure is! Oh yeah, if you really suck you get fired! Is that fair? Hell yes! I currently employ 30 people, and while I like all of them, I'd fire them if they didn't do their job! Nothing personal, but I didn't hire them out of charity!

Well, would you like to work in a system that isn't fair. I mean, what you are describing seems fair. So which is it?
The point is that we are not producing widgets here, students are not product. My AP kids are awesome raw material. Their parents have done a great job of instilling a work ethic and and understanding of the importance of taking responsibility for their own education (pay attention, study, etc.) Unfortunately, and this is anecdotal, there are less and less of those kinds of students.
I don't know what business you are in, but could you produce the same quality product you produce now if your raw material was not up to the same standard?
Kids and their educational improvement are much harder to measure than say stress testing a sheet metal bracket.

[ben41281]

I measure success by student learning, which I assess on a regular basis. I measure success by student success at the next level. I work as hard as I can everyday, more money wouldn't make me work any harder. Like I said, I don't expect you to understand.
Your example doesn't make sense. Everyone expects to be paid for their work, but the money is not what motivates me to do a good job, it merely pays the bills. We had a pay freeze a few years back and I didn't stop working hard because I was being paid less.



And I bet you were the first to complain about the pay freeze?




Again, same example, my advanced placement students are going to show improvement, it's a no brainer, but public school classrooms are very diverse as far as work ethic, learning styles, etc. and applying some simple formula based on a standardized assessment is a poor way to measure. Thus the problem.


see above

You know what, you are right! There is a vast diversity in classrooms, both in students and in the teachers who teach them! Some of whom are overpaid, some of whom are under paid! Personaly, I'd like to see those who suck get fired and replaced with good teachers. Unfair? Not at all!






So is there going to be a different assessment for each individual kid?

Dumb question. You don't test the class, and then give the same grade to the entire class. Of course you would have to assess them individualy! And then you look at the whole of the class, if on the whole there is improvement... then you get your pay raise. If on the whole, not so much, then no pay raise! It's very simple, when you think about it!




How much improvement is enough?

Well let's see, if little Jonny can't read when he starts the year, and he can when you finnish the year? Seems pretty easy! We can measure it. As to how much, how much is enough to go from one grade to the next? That would seem like a viable measure! If half your class is being held back, then I'd say you shouldn't get a raise. Sorry! I know you are going to say, "what about all the kids who don't try?" Well, if you have the same number of those in your class year to year, you should still show improvement in the rest of the class. If that number grows, then we have a bigger problem then a teacher not teaching, a break down of the entire society!




Special education students are included in regular ed class, no choice, federal law. Do they take a different test?

Can you measure their improvement? Look there is no reason why we can't!



Do you teach the same material or is the teacher going to have to make up three or four different versions of each assignment and assessment? Your solution is simplistic and unrealistic and if you had spend any time in a public school classroom you would know that. Pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and complain and offer unrealistic solutions, much tougher to actually do the work.

I like this point, "I'm not a teacher so I couldn't possibly be smart enough!" As if teachers have all the answers? I don't think so!





Because it is public money and until the public thinks it is ok for public money to go to private schools, this is how it is going to have to be.

This is why it's a monopoly! Kind of like AMTRAK. There are no real competitors, because the government is propping up a system that would fail without public money! Do you think public schools could actually compete on level footing with private schools, without public funds?




Care to prove they vote against them because of misinformation. In the last voucher election in Michigan, the pro voucher side spent 14 million, twice as much as the other side and lost 60-40. In Utah, both sides spent millions to get their message out and the voucher initiative LOST in every single county in a very conservative state. If it makes you feel better to delude yourself that vouchers lose because of misinformation, fine, but 30 years of failure is still 30 years of failure.

Care to look objectively at some of those add campains? I bet there where a lot of lies on both sides. And, without enough facts they were misinformed!





Well, would you like to work in a system that isn't fair. I mean, what you are describing seems fair. So which is it?

Actually I do work in a system that is not fair! My company cannot compete with the larger companies, so I have to find ways to make my company better! By cutting waste, by having better service, by doing the things no one else wants to. There is no such thing as an even playing field in the business world!







The point is that we are not producing widgets here, students are not product.

Really? Some of them come out dumber than a box of widgets! And even more come out dumber then when they went in!







My AP kids are awesome raw material. Their parents have done a great job of instilling a work ethic and and understanding of the importance of taking responsibility for their own education (pay attention, study, etc.) Unfortunately, and this is anecdotal, there are less and less of those kinds of students.
I don't know what business you are in, but could you produce the same quality product you produce now if your raw material was not up to the same standard?

So, by your logic. If all I have to work with is less capable equipment, I can't do my job? Wrong! As long as I have something to work with, I can do what needs to be done.

It shouldn't be about how the students are when they come to school the first day of the school year. It should be about, how well they improved by the last day of the school year. If on the final day of the year they still can't read/compute at the next grade level, I'd say the teacher failed. Is there room to blame the parrents, sure! But, to say it's all because little Jonny doesn't want to learn just doesn't cut it.

I run a trucking company. If one of my drivers never got his loads to their destinations on time, or never got them their at all. Do you think I would keep him on my payroll? Now, if a teacher regularly has the same percentage of kids that don't quite make it, I would assume that it's within the expected amount of failure. As you said some kids learn at a slower pace, I did. I got held back in school three times. No big deal. But, now teachers pass kids that should fail, why? Usually because of a lack of balls! They are affraid of some parrent that thinks, little Jonny is the smartest kid in class. Stand up to them!



Kids and their educational improvement are much harder to measure than say stress testing a sheet metal bracket.

Not really! If he/she can or can't read/compute/comprehend better then when they started the school year, you've measured it!

[pubschteacher]

And I bet you were the first to complain about the pay freeze?

Really, that's your answer, accuse me of being the first to complain about the pay freeze. I answered your question, you didn't like the answer, so you stoop to a baseless accusation. Nice debate skills, really, you should be very proud.
For the record, didn't complain at all. Take a look at my posts in here and find some place where I whined about pay.


You know what, you are right! There is a vast diversity in classrooms, both in students and in the teachers who teach them! Some of whom are overpaid, some of whom are under paid! Personaly, I'd like to see those who suck get fired and replaced with good teachers. Unfair? Not at all!

You keep bringing this up, what is your definition of "suck". If 51 percent of the class shows improvement, does that teacher get fired? Who is going to determine this? You? Parents in general? Is it all based on one test or should it be a series of formative assessments over the school year. If the assessments require writing, who is going to grade those? Your simplistic solution to this situation shows your total lack of understanding how learning takes place.


Dumb question. You don't test the class, and then give the same grade to the entire class. Of course you would have to assess them individualy! And then you look at the whole of the class, if on the whole there is improvement... then you get your pay raise. If on the whole, not so much, then no pay raise! It's very simple, when you think about it!

So there will be an individual test for every kid, every time out? How about the assignments, should those be individualized as well. Teachers in my district routinely see 180-210 students a day. Surely, even you can see that individual everything is not the answer.
What is on the whole, 51 percent, 75 percent. Who is going to set that number?


Well let's see, if little Jonny can't read when he starts the year, and he can when you finnish the year? Seems pretty easy! We can measure it. As to how much, how much is enough to go from one grade to the next? That would seem like a viable measure! If half your class is being held back, then I'd say you shouldn't get a raise. Sorry! I know you are going to say, "what about all the kids who don't try?" Well, if you have the same number of those in your class year to year, you should still show improvement in the rest of the class. If that number grows, then we have a bigger problem then a teacher not teaching, a break down of the entire society!

How about the kid with dyslexia? How much improvement should we expect from him? How about the kid who is mildly autistic? Oh, that's right, we are going to tailor individual assessment for every single kid.
So if 51 percent of the class is moving forward, I get my raise? One of the biggest problems I see is that because many people WENT to school, they assume they know how to BEST run a classroom. You don't.


Can you measure their improvement? Look there is no reason why we can't!


I like this point, "I'm not a teacher so I couldn't possibly be smart enough!" As if teachers have all the answers? I don't think so!

I like this part as well, you didn't answer the question, because you can't, so you distort what I said and hope no one notices. I did. Answer the question.


This is why it's a monopoly! Kind of like AMTRAK. There are no real competitors, because the government is propping up a system that would fail without public money! Do you think public schools could actually compete on level footing with private schools, without public funds?

Well, there is a great deal of competition for students within the public school system in Colorado. Each student brings more state dollars.
It's not a matter of competition with private schools, they are apples and oranges. Private schools can pick and choose their students, public schools have to teach any kid that shows up. The Constitution of each state requires the state government to provide a free public education. Your point is moot, unless you can change your state's Constitution, good luck with that.


Care to look objectively at some of those add campains? I bet there where a lot of lies on both sides. And, without enough facts they were misinformed!

Knock yourself out. You indicated the first time that vouchers failed because people were misinformed. Now, when faced with the fact that both sides spend great sums of money to make their case, it changes to lies on both sides. Which is it?

Actually I do work in a system that is not fair! My company cannot compete with the larger companies, so I have to find ways to make my company better! By cutting waste, by having better service, by doing the things no one else wants to. There is no such thing as an even playing field in the business world!

And I work in a system that provides a service that the Constitution of our state requires the state government to provide. Do you think it is fair for public schools to have to teach autistic kids, how about special education kids, how about the gang bangers or kids that are abused at home everyday. Why can't we pick and choose like private schools? I will tell you why, because the vast majority of Americans believe that trying to educate everyone is important and they continue to support the public school system for that very reason.


Really? Some of them come out dumber than a box of widgets! And even more come out dumber then when they went in!

Care to cite some real proof that American kids come out of school "dumber" then they went in. 9 out of every 10 Americans went to public school. If your ridiculous assertion is true, how does this country even function on a daily basis? You have no answer. The fact is students are not product and I think even you know that.


So, by your logic. If all I have to work with is less capable equipment, I can't do my job? Wrong! As long as I have something to work with, I can do what needs to be done.

Wow, did you miss that one. Let us try again. You say you have a trucking company. what if starting next year, you had to cut back and buy a less expensive truck. Now these trucks are not as fast and can't carry as much as the previous models. Can you continue to offer the same level of service to your customers with these trucks?
The point is that less and less students are coming to us with strong work ethics and sense of responsibility and getting them to achieve at the same levels is becoming increasingly difficult.


It shouldn't be about how the students are when they come to school the first day of the school year. It should be about, how well they improved by the last day of the school year. If on the final day of the year they still can't read/compute at the next grade level, I'd say the teacher failed. Is there room to blame the parrents, sure! But, to say it's all because little Jonny doesn't want to learn just doesn't cut it.

Again, if one kid can't read/compute did the teacher fail? 5, 10, half? Where do you draw the line? Who is going to make that decision? If I have a class of 35 and 30 of them show a years progress, am I ok?

I run a trucking company. If one of my drivers never got his loads to their destinations on time, or never got them their at all. Do you think I would keep him on my payroll? Now, if a teacher regularly has the same percentage of kids that don't quite make it, I would assume that it's within the expected amount of failure. As you said some kids learn at a slower pace, I did. I got held back in school three times. No big deal. But, now teachers pass kids that should fail, why? Usually because of a lack of balls! They are affraid of some parrent that thinks, little Jonny is the smartest kid in class. Stand up to them!

And again, what percentage are we talking about that would be acceptable for you? Kids are not trucking routes, sorry you can't see that. In our school district, if a parent wants their child to move up to the next grade, failing grades and all, the school is powerless to stop them, up to the 9th grade. Now, how is that the schools fault again?
I agree that too many teachers back down from parents on this issue. Here's a hypothetical, lets say that your kid ends up getting a 58 percent in my class for the semester. I give him an F and he flunks the course, summer school or take it again next year. Are you going to come in and have a rational discussion with me or am I going to hear about "lousy 2 percentage points" or are you going to back the decision. Be honest. :-)


Not really! If he/she can or can't read/compute/comprehend better then when they started the school year, you've measured it!

And again, how much improvement is sufficient and is that a sliding scale for students who are special ed, etc. Is the improvement measured in increments over the year or just one test at the end of the year? You make it sound so simple and because students are so different, it is not.

[ben41281]

Really, that's your answer, accuse me of being the first to complain about the pay freeze. I answered your question, you didn't like the answer, so you stoop to a baseless accusation. Nice debate skills, really, you should be very proud.
For the record, didn't complain at all. Take a look at my posts in here and find some place where I whined about pay.

So if pay means nothing, I will ask again. I fthey were to tell you that for the next year there would be no pay, you'd be O.K. with that? Because we now that teaching the kids is in itself a reward!


You keep bringing this up, what is your definition of "suck".

Well let's see. How about someone who graduates from high school and can't read or do basic math problems? How many do you know that are like that? I can point to entire neighborhoods full of people like that (before you say it they aren't black neighborhoods)!





If 51 percent of the class shows improvement, does that teacher get fired?

So if more than half your class is failing (51% is more than half) you wouldn't call that a problem? Now if that happened more than once I'd be wondering why! Could it be the teacher? Maybe. Maybe not. I think that would raise red flags as to weather a teacher is doing their job or not.






Who is going to determine this? You? Parents in general? Is it all based on one test or should it be a series of formative assessments over the school year. If the assessments require writing, who is going to grade those? Your simplistic solution to this situation shows your total lack of understanding how learning takes place.

Gee do I look like I have all the answers? One minute your telling me I'm not smart enough to understan, then you want me to solve all your problems for you. Seems to me most people look for complicated solutions to simple problems. The more complicated the solution, the more likely kids will fall through the cracks. This is a real easy problem to solve, and you make it out to be the biggest problem on planet Earth.


So there will be an individual test for every kid, every time out?

Don't you give individual tests for the subjects they learn? Or are those tests not enough for you to determine weather or not the kids in your class learned anything?





How about the assignments, should those be individualized as well. Teachers in my district routinely see 180-210 students a day. Surely, even you can see that individual everything is not the answer.


This makes no sense! Don't you give the kid individual work assignments already? If not, I think the school system has really gone down hill from teh time I was in school. We rarely worked on projects together!




What is on the whole, 51 percent, 75 percent. Who is going to set that number?

Seems to me, if you have more than half your class failing you don't need to be teaching anything! Sorry!




How about the kid with dyslexia? How much improvement should we expect from him? How about the kid who is mildly autistic?

Do you think we can't see weather or not they are learning? If so, your part of the problem. Look if they can't function in a regular classroom environment, they should be in special ed! That's the way it used to be. It worked good for so many years, why change what worked?




Oh, that's right, we are going to tailor individual assessment for every single kid.
So if 51 percent of the class is moving forward, I get my raise? One of the biggest problems I see is that because many people WENT to school, they assume they know how to BEST run a classroom. You don't.


Another poke at the "your not a teacher so you don't know anything", you couldn't help yourself could you?




I like this part as well, you didn't answer the question, because you can't, so you distort what I said and hope no one notices. I did. Answer the question.

See above, you did it again! I'm not as stupid as you might think I am!


Well, there is a great deal of competition for students within the public school system in Colorado. Each student brings more state dollars.
It's not a matter of competition with private schools, they are apples and oranges. Private schools can pick and choose their students, public schools have to teach any kid that shows up. The Constitution of each state requires the state government to provide a free public education. Your point is moot, unless you can change your state's Constitution, good luck with that.

Oh no, lets not have competition.


Knock yourself out. You indicated the first time that vouchers failed because people were misinformed. Now, when faced with the fact that both sides spend great sums of money to make their case, it changes to lies on both sides. Which is it?

Are you saying all those voters, really knew what they were voting for. Half the people who vote for president don't even know who's running! And yes there are lies on both sides of this issue.



And I work in a system that provides a service that the Constitution of our state requires the state government to provide. Do you think it is fair for public schools to have to teach autistic kids, how about special education kids, how about the gang bangers or kids that are abused at home everyday. Why can't we pick and choose like private schools? I will tell you why, because the vast majority of Americans believe that trying to educate everyone is important and they continue to support the public school system for that very reason.

O.K. so that service you provide, shouldn't it be the best possible service. How many teachers provide subpar service? And don't try to say all of them are just perfect teachers! That would resultin an automatic BS!



Care to cite some real proof that American kids come out of school "dumber" then they went in. 9 out of every 10 Americans went to public school. If your ridiculous assertion is true, how does this country even function on a daily basis? You have no answer. The fact is students are not product and I think even you know that.

How many can't even read or do basic math problems? Have you been to McDonalds lately? Try to get the right change! It's not because they don't care, it's because half of them can't count. The other half don't even speak english!




Wow, did you miss that one. Let us try again. You say you have a trucking company. what if starting next year, you had to cut back and buy a less expensive truck. Now these trucks are not as fast and can't carry as much as the previous models. Can you continue to offer the same level of service to your customers with these trucks?
The point is that less and less students are coming to us with strong work ethics and sense of responsibility and getting them to achieve at the same levels is becoming increasingly difficult.

Again your blaming the students for your inability to teach! Are you sure it's the kids, and not the teachers? I don't buy it!



Again, if one kid can't read/compute did the teacher fail? 5, 10, half? Where do you draw the line? Who is going to make that decision? If I have a class of 35 and 30 of them show a years progress, am I ok?

If you have 30 and only 5 are falling behind, I'd say yes you did your job. However if you have more than a third not going on to the next grade level on a regular basis, I'd be wondering if it's not the kids and maybe it's the teacher.



And again, what percentage are we talking about that would be acceptable for you? Kids are not trucking routes, sorry you can't see that. In our school district, if a parent wants their child to move up to the next grade, failing grades and all, the school is powerless to stop them, up to the 9th grade. Now, how is that the schools fault again?

That would be the fault of the school system! If kids are being moved up, before they are ready it becomes a greater burden on the next teacher, and the next, and the next. Sounds to me like your school system has a big problem there! You should fix that!



I agree that too many teachers back down from parents on this issue. Here's a hypothetical, lets say that your kid ends up getting a 58 percent in my class for the semester. I give him an F and he flunks the course, summer school or take it again next year. Are you going to come in and have a rational discussion with me or am I going to hear about "lousy 2 percentage points" or are you going to back the decision. Be honest. :-)

Being I was a kid held back at three points as a student, I wouldn't have a big problem with the teacher. I'd kind of wonder why it got to that point, before the teacher or my kid told me they were having a problem. But, I wouldn't be getting angry at the teacher.


And again, how much improvement is sufficient and is that a sliding scale for students who are special ed, etc. Is the improvement measured in increments over the year or just one test at the end of the year? You make it sound so simple and because students are so different, it is not.

I would think the margin for improvement would be the amount required to go to the next grade level. If they don't have the skills, they don't go to the next grade. Enough said. That's the way it used to be, before all this bull crap started.

[Talk2Bill]

Why not? If you have a class that isn't showing any improvement, why would I give you a raise?


For one not all classes are the same.

Not all kids are the same (95% of kids take one test, 4% can take GRADE LEVEL test with modifications, 1% take a GRADE LEVEL test with significant modifications. If there are more that 5% not taking the normal test, those kids are counted as a having failed.

Also, there is very often favoritism in which teachers get which kids.

[Army of 1]

here are the problems with merit pay.
who decides what the criteria is for being good?
if you are a gifted teacher why would you take a difficult assignment and chance being paid less even though that is where we need our best teachers?
how do you factor in parent and student apathy?

there is a reason that you don't have all the answers, it is because these things can not be answered or at least not in an equitable way.
are their problems? absolutely but for the most part you have very good dedicated teachers that work very hard.
you simply can not apply normal business processes to education. you say your customers will fire you but if your product is absent half the time, or your products parents don't care if the go to school or do homework, or your product has to work to support their family..so it can't be on your shelf, should we hold you accountable for your sales?
our product is human it has far more control over what happens to it than a standard product. you can not use the same business analogy for firing!

here is the problem with vouchers and school choice. the failing kids are usually failing because they do not care about education or their parents don't. if they don't care about education why woudl they bother to apply for a voucher or school choice program? you will have an epidemic of "white flight" and all the white kids from urban schools will fly to the suburbs or private schools. do some research on areas that have open enrollment. our neighboring district that has this had to put a cap on the number of white kids that can change schools.
I am truly sorry that in this day of budget cuts that you truly believe schools districts would "bid" for the services of the best teachers. I would like to believe that districts try to get the best teacher they can get for the best salary but I know there are many that simply hire the cheapest teacher available.
I am a 20 year veteran teacher. I have a master's and will soon have my plus 30 (30 hours into a doctorate). I think I am a pretty good teacher. In my current state of education and service I am priced out of the market. I simply could not get hired at any other district because of cost. I could be the greatest teacher ever and maybe the chicago suburb schools would hire me. Plain and simple in economic terms a school district could hire at least 2 new teachers out of college and still not use the entire salary I make. what do you think a district that can't afford books is going to do when hiring time comes?

[pubschteacher]

So if pay means nothing, I will ask again. I fthey were to tell you that for the next year there would be no pay, you'd be O.K. with that? Because we now that teaching the kids is in itself a reward!I didn't say pay meant nothing, what I said was that it wasn't what motivated me to do a good job, a concept that you obviously have no clue about. Sorry.*Well let's see. How about someone who graduates from high school and can't read or do basic math problems? How many do you know that are like that? I can point to entire neighborhoods full of people like that (before you say it they aren't black neighborhoods)! Well, this is anecdotal, but I have never met a graduate from our school district that couldn't read or do basic math. **So if more than half your class is failing (51% is more than half) you wouldn't call that a problem? Now if that happened more than once I'd be wondering why! Could it be the teacher? Maybe.* Maybe not. I think that would raise red flags as to weather a teacher is doing their job or not.
Again, you didn't ask the question. Let's try again.If 51 percent of the class shows improvement, does the teacher get fired?**Gee do I look like I have all the answers? One minute your telling me I'm not smart enough to understan, then you want me to solve all your problems for you. Seems to me most people look for complicated solutions to simple problems. The more complicated the solution, the more likely kids will fall through the cracks. This is a real easy problem to solve, and you make* it out to be the biggest problem on planet Earth.Nope, you most certainly do not have all the answers. It is pretty easy to complain and whine about a problem and not offer any solutions. The simple fact is that you don't have a solution, I'm betting because you don't really understand the problem.***Don't you give individual tests for the subjects they learn? Or are those tests not enough for you to determine weather or not the kids in your class learned anything?You assume that all students in a public classroom are exactly the same. They are not. So, if you want to accurately assess their progress, you have to give an individualized test at the beginning of the year to establish a baseline, then each assessment after that would have to be individualized depending on the child, regular ed, gifted, special ed, learning disabled, etc. if you want a true measure of each individual kids progress. So, you are looking at, what 5-10 different versions of the test and assignments each and every time.* Yeah, that seems reasonable.**This makes no sense! Don't you give the kid individual work assignments already? If not, I think the school system has really gone down hill from teh time I was in school. We rarely worked on projects together!You really don't have a clue about what we are talking about. I'm not talking about group work, I'm talking about individualizing each assignment to the learning ability of each kid, which would really be the only way to test progress fairly. I may ask the gifted and talented kid to write a position paper on how the Fall of Rome could have been prevented, but in that same class, I may have a student with mild autism. Should he get the same assignment? Should I use the same rubric? Oh, wait, I can't federal and state law requires that I make whatever accomodations needed to suit the 504 plan or the IEP. *Seems to me, if you have more than half your class failing you don't need to be teaching anything! Sorry!So if 51 percent aren't failing, you are okay with that? You still didn't give me a number. What percentage have to be proficient for you to approve of their teaching?**Do you think we can't see weather or not they are learning? If so, your part of the problem. Look if they can't function in a regular classroom environment, they should be in special ed! That's the way it used to be. It worked good for so many years, why change what worked?Again, you are out of touch with the reality of the modern day classroom. If you want to enlighten yourself, google inclusion in public schools.**Another poke at the "your not a teacher so you don't know anything", you couldn't help yourself could you?Nope, just an acknowledgement that teachers, by and large, know how to do their job better than you do. I drove a coal truck for a couple of summers, do you think I know more about the trucking business than you do? Doubtful. You parent and we will teach.**See above, you did it again! I'm not as stupid as you might think I am!Misinformed not stupid.***Are you saying all those voters, really knew what they were voting for. Half the people who vote for president don't even know who's running! And yes there are lies on both sides of this issue. I wonder, if the voters, agree with you, if you still consider them stupid and misinformed. Care to show me some real data that says that half the people voting for the President don't know who is running. You see, its these ridiculous assertions, backed up by nothing, that make you look uninformed.****O.K. so that service you provide, shouldn't it be the best possible service. How many teachers provide subpar service? And don't try to say all of them are just perfect teachers! That would resultin an automatic BS!I never said any such thing. There are 3.5 million of us and I am sure, like any industry, we have our share of bad teachers. But, PDK/Gallup Polls over the last two decades have shown that the majority of American parents think THEIR local school is doing a good job, so I think the good teachers far outweigh the bad.**How many can't even read or do basic math problems? Have you been to McDonalds lately? Try to get the right change! It's not because they don't care, it's because half of them can't count. The other half don't even speak english![quote]I always wonder about this same old tired "can't get the right change" story. I can match your anecdotal evidence with mine, I have several students who work at fast food restaurants, so today, in between classes, I gave them a couple of "change" scenario. They did the math in their head in seconds.Again, didn't answer the question, how is it that this country even functions with 9 out of 10 people in the country educated in public schools.*[quote]Again your blaming the students for your inability to teach! Are you sure it's the kids, and not the teachers? I don't buy it! *And again, you didn't answer the question. Could you provide the same services that you provide if your trucks were inferior to the ones that you currently use. Don't try to change the subject, step up and answer the question.***If you have 30 and only 5 are falling behind, I'd say yes you did your job. However if you have more than a third not going on to the next grade level on a regular basis, I'd be wondering if it's not the kids and maybe it's the teacher.So, now it is one third, make up your mind, what fraction or percentage are you going to set to determine the effectiveness of the teacher. Don't dance around, answer the question. **That would be the fault of the school system! If kids are being moved up, before they are ready it becomes a greater burden on the next teacher, and the next, and the next. Sounds to me like your school system has a big problem there! You should fix that!School says the student should repeat the grade, parents say no, school's hands are tied, they move the kid up and its the SCHOOL's fault. How about the parent?**Being I was a kid held back at three points as a student, I wouldn't have a big problem with the teacher. I'd kind of wonder why it got to that point, before the teacher or my kid told me they were having a problem. But, I wouldn't be getting angry at the teacher.Given the tone of your dislike for the public system, I am betting that if your kid was held back because of 2 percentage points, you would go ballistic. Let's say the teacher did contact you, but your student blew the last exam and didn't hand in his last assignments, who is to blame, teacher or the kid? ***

I would think the margin for improvement would be the amount required to go to the next grade level. If they don't have the skills, they don't go to the next grade. Enough said. That's the way it used to be, before all this bull crap started.

So is that a skills test? A standardized test at the end of the year? The formative tests given during the year? Their grade?
What about social studies. In 8th grade students take US history, in 9th grade they take World History. Their content knowledge in US History has no bearing on the content they will learn the next year. Do we base their move up on the reading comprehension, their writing skill? Again, what about the kid with mild autism, does their reading comprehension have to equal their regular ed peers? If not, do we hold them back again and again and again.
What bull crap would you be talking about? Inclusion? Identifying learning disabilities, etc.
You don't have a clue....