Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

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Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them


A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.



The clergyman prefered not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.

Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.

But the Armenians are far from satisfied by the police action and say this sort of thing has been going on for years. Archbishop Nourhan Manougian says he expects the education minister to say something.

"When there is an attack against Jews anywhere in the world, the Israeli government is incensed, so why when our religion and pride are hurt, don't they take harsher measures?" he asks.

According to Daniel Rossing, former adviser to the Religious Affairs Ministry on Christian affairs and director of a Jerusalem center for Christian-Jewish dialogue, there has been an increase in the number of such incidents recently, "as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

Rossing says there are certain common characeristics from the point of view of time and location to the incidents. He points to the fact that there are more incidents in areas where Jews and Christians mingle, such as the Jewish and Armenian quarters of the Old City and the Jaffa Gate.

There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

Former adviser to the mayor on Christian affairs, Shmuel Evyatar, describes the situation as "a huge disgrace." He says most of the instigators are yeshiva students studying in the Old City who view the Christian religion with disdain.

"I'm sure the phenomenon would end as soon as rabbis and well-known educators denounce it. In practice, rabbis of yeshivas ignore or even encourage it," he says.

Evyatar says he himself was spat at while walking with a Serbian bishop in the Jewish quarter, near his home. "A group of yeshiva students spat at us and their teacher just stood by and watched."

Jerusalem municipal officials said they are aware of the problem but it has to be dealt with by the police. Shmuel Ben-Ruby, the police spokesman, said they had only two complaints from Christians in the past two years. He said that, in both cases, the culprits were caught and punished.

He said the police deploy an inordinately high number of patrols and special technology in the Old City and its surroundings in an attempt to keep order.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=487412

[lwdc]

Spitting on Christians in Jerusalem? Clergy should be more concerned about the burning of their churches in Jerusalem.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/916567.html

Or about the planting of bombs in gift baskets.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/967598.html

[Constantine the Great]

Unfortunately no group has a monopoly on terrorism; you would think though that a people living in its shadow would know better.

[free2B]

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them


A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.



The clergyman prefered not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.

Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.

But the Armenians are far from satisfied by the police action and say this sort of thing has been going on for years. Archbishop Nourhan Manougian says he expects the education minister to say something.

"When there is an attack against Jews anywhere in the world, the Israeli government is incensed, so why when our religion and pride are hurt, don't they take harsher measures?" he asks.

According to Daniel Rossing, former adviser to the Religious Affairs Ministry on Christian affairs and director of a Jerusalem center for Christian-Jewish dialogue, there has been an increase in the number of such incidents recently, "as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

Rossing says there are certain common characeristics from the point of view of time and location to the incidents. He points to the fact that there are more incidents in areas where Jews and Christians mingle, such as the Jewish and Armenian quarters of the Old City and the Jaffa Gate.

There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

Former adviser to the mayor on Christian affairs, Shmuel Evyatar, describes the situation as "a huge disgrace." He says most of the instigators are yeshiva students studying in the Old City who view the Christian religion with disdain.

"I'm sure the phenomenon would end as soon as rabbis and well-known educators denounce it. In practice, rabbis of yeshivas ignore or even encourage it," he says.

Evyatar says he himself was spat at while walking with a Serbian bishop in the Jewish quarter, near his home. "A group of yeshiva students spat at us and their teacher just stood by and watched."

Jerusalem municipal officials said they are aware of the problem but it has to be dealt with by the police. Shmuel Ben-Ruby, the police spokesman, said they had only two complaints from Christians in the past two years. He said that, in both cases, the culprits were caught and punished.

He said the police deploy an inordinately high number of patrols and special technology in the Old City and its surroundings in an attempt to keep order.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=487412

Jaffa Gate — The main entrance to the Old City is the Jaffa Gate, which was built by Suleiman in 1538. The name in Arabic, Bab el-Halil or Hebron Gate, means "The Beloved," and refers to Abraham, the beloved of God who is buried in Hebron. The gate on the western side of the Old City marked the end of the highway leading from the Jaffa coast and now leads into the Muslim and Armenian quarters. A road allows cars to enter the Old City through a wide gap in the wall between Jaffa Gate and the Citadel. This passage was originally built in 1898 when Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany visited Jerusalem. The ruling Ottoman Turks opened it so the German Emperor would not have to dismount his carriage to enter the city.

[smyrna]

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them



Matthew 5:10-12 (King James Version)



10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

[captusa]

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them


A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.



......
Former adviser to the mayor on Christian affairs, Shmuel Evyatar, describes the situation as "a huge disgrace." He says most of the instigators are yeshiva students studying in the Old City who view the Christian religion with disdain.

"I'm sure the phenomenon would end as soon as rabbis and well-known educators denounce it. In practice, rabbis of yeshivas ignore or even encourage it," he says.

Evyatar says he himself was spat at while walking with a Serbian bishop in the Jewish quarter, near his home. "A group of yeshiva students spat at us and their teacher just stood by and watched."

Jerusalem municipal officials said they are aware of the problem but it has to be dealt with by the police. Shmuel Ben-Ruby, the police spokesman, said they had only two complaints from Christians in the past two years. He said that, in both cases, the culprits were caught and punished.

He said the police deploy an inordinately high number of patrols and special technology in the Old City and its surroundings in an attempt to keep order.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=487412

Israel has their Rabid Religious Right Wing just like Iran and the USA.
There was a time when most of them resided in Israel and refused to become citizens, did not recognize the state of Israel and would not even ride on EL AL planes.
The Israeli Government (even Likud) is serious about preventing the abuse of all visitors, tourists and especially visiting clergy but you must accept that with suicide bombers, saboteurs and terrorists (including Israelis like Rabin's assassin and someone that machine gunned a mosque) there are matters of a higher priorety than expectorators.
As you cited secular Israeli citizens get similar treatment in Orthodox areas.

As you might conclude I have no love for the Rabid Religious Right of any religion.

[Koushi Shinigami]

as you might conclude i have no love for the rabid religious right of any religion.

+1

[5thIDSoldier]

Unfortunately no group has a monopoly on terrorism; you would think though that a people living in its shadow would know better.

Cant argue with that... :clap:

[nofear2]

Israel has their Rabid Religious Right Wing just like Iran and the USA.
There was a time when most of them resided in Israel and refused to become citizens, did not recognize the state of Israel and would not even ride on EL AL planes.
The Israeli Government (even Likud) is serious about preventing the abuse of all visitors, tourists and especially visiting clergy but you must accept that with suicide bombers, saboteurs and terrorists (including Israelis like Rabin's assassin and someone that machine gunned a mosque) there are matters of a higher priorety than expectorators.
As you cited secular Israeli citizens get similar treatment in Orthodox areas.

As you might conclude I have no love for the Rabid Religious Right of any religion.

I'm religious and I am a rightist - Does this make me rabid?

Christians are supposed to be protected under the laws of a Ger Toshav according to Jewish law being as they believe in one G-d...assuming no doubt that they are not involved in trying to convert Jews to their faith.

[captusa]

I'm religious and I am a rightist - Does this make me rabid?

......

The reasonable answer is NO.

My personal prejudice leans toward "probably".
No offense meant.

[nofear2]

The reasonable answer is NO.

My personal prejudice leans toward "probably".
No offense meant.None taken :))
What makes the religious people who lean to the right so rabid?

[captusa]

None taken :))
What makes the religious people who lean to the right so rabid?

Truthfully, IM(rarely)HO, they conclude that any contradiction to their opinion is an attack on their Deity.
What I don't understand why they think their omnipotent Deity needs their help.

[nofear2]

Truthfully, IM(rarely)HO, they conclude that any contradiction to their opinion is an attack on their Deity.
What I don't understand why they think their omnipotent Deity needs their help.

But I am religious and politically I lean to the right and I do not see things as such. Still - How does that make them rabid? Do you know what Rabid means?

[captusa]

But I am religious and politically I lean to the right and I do not see things as such. Still - How does that make them rabid? Do you know what Rabid means?

I said, logically, being religious and right DOES NOT necessarily imply one is rabid.

With my tongue lodged firmly in my cheek I added "probably" as an alternate answer..

Yes, I do know the meaning of rabid.
Both the clinical definition and the pejorative.

[Mikko]

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them


A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.



The clergyman prefered not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.

Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.

But the Armenians are far from satisfied by the police action and say this sort of thing has been going on for years. Archbishop Nourhan Manougian says he expects the education minister to say something.

"When there is an attack against Jews anywhere in the world, the Israeli government is incensed, so why when our religion and pride are hurt, don't they take harsher measures?" he asks.

According to Daniel Rossing, former adviser to the Religious Affairs Ministry on Christian affairs and director of a Jerusalem center for Christian-Jewish dialogue, there has been an increase in the number of such incidents recently, "as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

Rossing says there are certain common characeristics from the point of view of time and location to the incidents. He points to the fact that there are more incidents in areas where Jews and Christians mingle, such as the Jewish and Armenian quarters of the Old City and the Jaffa Gate.

There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

Former adviser to the mayor on Christian affairs, Shmuel Evyatar, describes the situation as "a huge disgrace." He says most of the instigators are yeshiva students studying in the Old City who view the Christian religion with disdain.

"I'm sure the phenomenon would end as soon as rabbis and well-known educators denounce it. In practice, rabbis of yeshivas ignore or even encourage it," he says.

Evyatar says he himself was spat at while walking with a Serbian bishop in the Jewish quarter, near his home. "A group of yeshiva students spat at us and their teacher just stood by and watched."

Jerusalem municipal officials said they are aware of the problem but it has to be dealt with by the police. Shmuel Ben-Ruby, the police spokesman, said they had only two complaints from Christians in the past two years. He said that, in both cases, the culprits were caught and punished.

He said the police deploy an inordinately high number of patrols and special technology in the Old City and its surroundings in an attempt to keep order.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=487412
Doesn't surprise me a bit.:(

[Mikko]

I'm religious and I am a rightist - Does this make me rabid?

Christians are supposed to be protected under the laws of a Ger Toshav according to Jewish law being as they believe in one G-d...assuming no doubt that they are not involved in trying to convert Jews to their faith.
There is a religous right wing and a rabid religious right wing.:)

[BillyBobUSA]

There is a religous right wing and a rabid religious right wing.:)


And there is a rabid leftwing, and a rabid center and a rabid unaligned and a rabid...blah, blah, blah.

Since we are not speaking of people who are medically infected with rabies, it is clear that 'rabid' in this contexts means 'too different from my own opinion and experiences to understand it, so they must be crazy'.

:razz:

[BillyBobUSA]

It is also interesting to note that so far there is not one expresion of outrage among the regular Christian posters here.

:lol:

[lwdc]

There is a religous right wing and a rabid religious right wing.:)I think it's pretty safe to say that the ones who spit on Christians, burn their churches, and booby-trap gift baskets are the "rabid" ones.

[captusa]

And there is a rabid leftwing, and a rabid center and a rabid unaligned and a rabid...blah, blah, blah.

Since we are not speaking of people who are medically infected with rabies, it is clear that 'rabid' in this contexts means 'too different from my own opinion and experiences to understand it, so they must be crazy'.

:razz:

The the set of rabid religious right wingers is a proper subset of the set of religious right winger.

Draft card burners and flag burners are in the set of rabid left winger which is a subset of left wingers.

Your definition of "rabid" is accurate except to be rabid they must ACT on ' opinions too different from YOUR own opinion and experiences to understand it, so they must be crazy'.
OR take action too extreme for you even if 'their opinions are not different from your opinion and experiences.

[Constantine the Great]

It is also interesting to note that so far there is not one expresion of outrage among the regular Christian posters here.

:lol:


What would you have us do? Ask for someone's head? The clergy mentioned in the first paragraph of the OP was Orthodox Christian, like myself. Of course it is outrageous. It's discussing BUT, at the same time hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Orthodox Christians have been martyred throughout history. This pales in comparison. It's stupid, uncouth, disgusting. However, the history of persecution is a long one and the last chapter is yet to be written.

[lwdc]

What would you have us do? Ask for someone's head? The clergy mentioned in the first paragraph of the OP was Orthodox Christian, like myself. Of course it is outrageous. It's discussing BUT, at the same time hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Orthodox Christians have been martyred throughout history. It's millions. Don't forget the Ukraine 1932-33. The victims were by-and-large Orthodox Christians.

[Fig Tree]

My brothers, the world is of the flesh and corrupt with sin. Let us hold to our hope to the end.

Matthew 5

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Revelation 1

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

[lwdc]

My brothers, the world is of the flesh and corrupt with sin. Let us hold to our hope to the end.

Matthew 5

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Revelation 1

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.Aren't you the same guy who said:
As a seeker of the truth, I pose a question after a quick reference. Revelation makes no mention of any country in End Time events. This means either it is destroyed, is part of the unions that attack IsraelTherefore, why shouldn't the spitting, church-burning, and bomb-planting be considered preemptive self-defense? Perhaps you and Chabad share true knowledge about the End Times and are taking appropriate measures to preempt the imminent attack. Russia, after all, is predominantly Orthodox Christian, and aren't they the guys that launch an air strike against the Jewish state in that Tim LaHaye novel? Those Orthodox Christians are the enemy! And don't forget, if they're doing any proselytizing, then they are breaking the law.

Those spitting, church-burning, bomb-planting, rabid individuals are heroes at best, and vigilantes at least.

[Fig Tree]

Russia, after all, is predominantly Orthodox Christian, and aren't they the guys that launch an air strike against the Jewish state in that Tim LaHaye novel? Those Orthodox Christians are the enemy!


I believe you have you figures incorrect my friend. Russia has an indept history at persecution of the Christian faith. Over 50 million christians have been slain in that region alone. Russia has one of the smallest christian percentages in the world. Information from a novel would not be an indication of future events. You might disagree with thier doctrine, however if it is based on the belief of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; there will be true believers in that group. A true believer will not renounce his or her faith under persecution and even death.

And when I quoted "we", it was a generalized term for the United States as a nation, not christians. We are to oppose the government on unbiblical issues. Attacking Israel, I believe would be pretty evident. Christianity during the end time events will be outlawed and many put to death. If it comes to that, I am willing to die for the one who died for me.

[lwdc]

I believe you have you figures incorrect my friend. Russia has an indept history at persecution of the Christian faith. Wrong. Russia was founded as a Christian nation and has been so ever since. Russian Christians were persecuted at the hands of atheist SOVIETS. Over 50 million christians have been slain in that region alone.Right. The Soviets tried to wipe out the Christian population in Russia. As many as 50 million Christians were slain in Russia because Russia HAD SO MANY CHRISTIANS TO BEGIN WITH! (THINK! :think: ) If the Soviets wanted to ruin a Christian nation and rid the world of millions of Christians, then Russia was the obvious choice. Russia has one of the smallest christian percentages in the world.Wrong. There are more Christians in Russia than there are even in the US. Orthodox Christians. Information from a novel would not be an indication of future events. Right. So take your LaHaye End Times baloney to the TP forum. You might disagree with thier doctrine, however if it is based on the belief of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; there will be true believers in that group. A true believer will not renounce his or her faith under persecution and even death. Yes, but what does that have to do with this thread?

And when I quoted "we", it was a generalized term for the United States as a nation, not christians. The Bible talks about Christians, not about the United States. You know, there is a Washington Politics forum on these boards where you can talk about the United States as a "nation" to your heart's content. We are to oppose the government on unbiblical issues. Attacking Israel, I believe would be pretty evident. "Unbiblical"? Just an fyi: in the Bible, Israel was attacked many times. But I digress. Christianity during the end time events will be outlawed and many put to death. If it comes to that, I am willing to die for the one who died for me.Good for you.

[Constantine the Great]

wrong. Russia was founded as a christian nation and has been so ever since. Russian christians were persecuted at the hands of atheist soviets. Right. The soviets tried to wipe out the christian population in russia. As many as 50 million christians were slain in russia because russia had so many christians to begin with! (think! :think: ) if the soviets wanted to ruin a christian nation and rid the world of millions of christians, then russia was the obvious choice. Wrong. There are more christians in russia than there are even in the us. Orthodox christians. Right. So take your lahaye end times baloney to the tp forum. Yes, but what does that have to do with this thread?

The bible talks about christians, not about the united states. You know, there is a washington politics forum on these boards where you can talk about the united states as a "nation" to your heart's content. "unbiblical"? Just an fyi: In the bible, israel was attacked many times. But i digress. Good for you.


+1

[Jacob_Rising]

Spitting on Christians in Jerusalem? Clergy should be more concerned about the burning of their churches in Jerusalem.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/916567.html

Or about the planting of bombs in gift baskets.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/967598.htmlI like the Part where the Messianic Jew said Jesus had no intentions of starting a new religion.

If a Messianic Jew or Christian suffers at the hands of a Jew in Jerusalem, it doesn't compare in the least to what Jews suffered from Christians.

I havn't read this whole thread but I feel sympathy for the Jews doing the spitting.

Jerusalem is the Holy city of the Jews and the only claim Christians have on it is through the Priests of the Jews recorded in the Bible.

Not Only do they play the humble by letting the Muslim Mosque remain on their Temple site but they also have to deal with us Christians parading through the streets like we are the New Priests of Jerusalem.

Their Synogogues were taken over 100 years after Jesus died by the followers of Jesus.

If History repeats itself, Then maybe they have a reason to be angry at people taking over their city.

It is their city, In My opinion.

[lwdc]

I havn't read this whole thread but I feel sympathy for the Jews doing the spitting.Yeah, me too. I guess it's okay for Jews to spit on Christians.
Jerusalem is the Holy city of the Jews and the only claim Christians have on it is through the Priests of the Jews recorded in the Bible.Christians need to know that they have no business being in the Holy City, ever. It belongs to the Jews, and nobody else.
Not Only do they play the humble by letting the Muslim Mosque remain on their Temple site but they also have to deal with us Christians parading through the streets like we are the New Priests of Jerusalem.The nerve of those Christians. They need to get OUT of Jerusalem. Pronto.
Their Synogogues were taken over 100 years after Jesus died by the followers of Jesus.What an outrage!
If History repeats itself, Then maybe they have a reason to be angry at people taking over their city.Darned right. Those meshuga Christians are "taking over" Jerusalem, and they must pay for their crimes.
It is their city, In My opinion.Mine too. Christians need to get the message that they and their Christ have no business in Jerusalem. It belongs to the Jews.

J_R, you seem like such a fair and sensible man. Thank you for weighing in on the "issue" of Jews spitting on Christians in Jerusalem.

[BillyBobUSA]

What would you have us do? Ask for someone's head?

That would be a good start.


The clergy mentioned in the first paragraph of the OP was Orthodox Christian, like myself. Of course it is outrageous. It's discussing BUT, at the same time hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Orthodox Christians have been martyred throughout history.

I am well aware of this.

That does not justify rude behavior NOW, today.

This pales in comparison. It's stupid, uncouth, disgusting. However, the history of persecution is a long one and the last chapter is yet to be written.

Such a fatalistic view.

Though it is so true, and we in America are soon to experience our own dark passage.

I hope our friends across the world remember the help we have given them in times past.

[captusa]

Wrong. Russia was founded as a Christian nation and has been so ever since
...
....

Was Russia a Christian nation 1918-2000 ?

[lwdc]

Was Russia a Christian nation 1918-2000 ?Yes.

Russia was a predominantly Christian nation under the thumb of the Soviet state, just as Israel was a nation under the thumb of pharaohs at one time in history, was a Roman prefecture at another time in history, etc.

[Abe]

The reasonable answer is NO.

My personal prejudice leans toward "probably".
No offense meant.Take it from, he's far from it. He and I may have have some core disagreements, but he's a sincere, well grounded man, who is absolutely not rabid.

[Abe]

I like the Part where the Messianic Jew said Jesus had no intentions of starting a new religion.

If a Messianic Jew or Christian suffers at the hands of a Jew in Jerusalem, it doesn't compare in the least to what Jews suffered from Christians.

I havn't read this whole thread but I feel sympathy for the Jews doing the spitting.

Jerusalem is the Holy city of the Jews and the only claim Christians have on it is through the Priests of the Jews recorded in the Bible.

Not Only do they play the humble by letting the Muslim Mosque remain on their Temple site but they also have to deal with us Christians parading through the streets like we are the New Priests of Jerusalem.

Their Synogogues were taken over 100 years after Jesus died by the followers of Jesus.

If History repeats itself, Then maybe they have a reason to be angry at people taking over their city.

It is their city, In My opinion.It is the city of anyone who lives within its limits. Jews should not spit at Christians. I find it disgusting and juvenile. It shames me as a Jew.

[Constantine the Great]

I like the Part where the Messianic Jew said Jesus had no intentions of starting a new religion.

If a Messianic Jew or Christian suffers at the hands of a Jew in Jerusalem, it doesn't compare in the least to what Jews suffered from Christians.
So as a matter of payback it is ok? I wonder how many genocides we can justify using this line of reasoning.

[Jacob_Rising]

Yeah, me too. I guess it's okay for Jews to spit on Christians.
Christians need to know that they have no business being in the Holy City, ever. It belongs to the Jews, and nobody else.
The nerve of those Christians. They need to get OUT of Jerusalem. Pronto.
What an outrage!
Darned right. Those meshuga Christians are "taking over" Jerusalem, and they must pay for their crimes.
Mine too. Christians need to get the message that they and their Christ have no business in Jerusalem. It belongs to the Jews.

J_R, you seem like such a fair and sensible man. Thank you for weighing in on the "issue" of Jews spitting on Christians in Jerusalem.
The Jews I read about that you provided were not Christians, they believed in Yeshuah but like I said, '' I like the part where they said Jesus didn't come to start a new religion''

I wouldn't like to see anyone being spit on, or have shoes thrown at them:razz: well.

As far as Jerusalem goes, we just have different ideas.

Thank God that I'm not the Prime Minister of Israel because if I were, there would be no Christian Parades in Jerusalem and no Muslim Mosques, No Christian Churches, I believe in a Therocracy that's based in Jerusalem and Judaism.

If the Bible is correct, Jerusalem will only be inhabited by Israel alone.

[Jacob_Rising]

So as a matter of payback it is ok? I wonder how many genocides we can justify using this line of reasoning.I never said anything was Ok, I just said that I sympathize with them, Jerusalem has been fought over for 2000 years the Jews have been kicked out of their cities and Jerusalem.

In 135 it was the Greek Priests that took over their synogogues under Hadrian.

I just sympathize very much with the Jews and if spitting is the worst thing that comes up it's pretty sad given what was done to them in the name of Christianity.

It doesn't pay back anything and it shouldn't be done.

If I was walking down the streets of Jerusalem and a Jew came up and spit on my face, I wouldn't hold anything against him.

[Constantine the Great]

I never said anything was Ok, I just said that I sympathize with them, Jerusalem has been fought over for 2000 years the Jews have been kicked out of their cities and Jerusalem.

In 135 it was the Greek Priests that took over their synogogues under Hadrian.

I just sympathize very much with the Jews and if spitting is the worst thing that comes up it's pretty sad given what was done to them in the name of Christianity.

It doesn't pay back anything and it shouldn't be done.

If I was walking down the streets of Jerusalem and a Jew came up and spit on my face, I wouldn't hold anything against him.

Right now, I have no idea how to respond to such ignorance, but I'll figure something out.

[PaleoPaul]

I never said anything was Ok, I just said that I sympathize with them, Jerusalem has been fought over for 2000 years the Jews have been kicked out of their cities and Jerusalem.
Using your logic, blacks can do whatever they want to whites because their ancestors were slaves in this country. Indigenous people in Mexico can do whatever they want to Spanish people because they came and conquered their cities in the AD years.

If I was walking down the streets of Jerusalem and a Jew came up and spit on my face, I wouldn't hold anything against him.
Wow, racial guilt: It ain't just for white liberals and black issues anymore!!!!

[Constantine the Great]

I never said anything was Ok, I just said that I sympathize with them, Jerusalem has been fought over for 2000 years the Jews have been kicked out of their cities and Jerusalem.
And you are suing this to justify spitting in the face of another human being, regardless of what their race or religion is. It is wrong, get it?

In 135 it was the Greek Priests that took over their synogogues under Hadrian.
So what? Turks slaughtered Greeks on more than one occasion. They slaughtered Christians simply because they were Christians, should I have the right to spit in the face of every Turk I run in to? Bad behavior can and should never be justified with such irrelevant reasoning because as I stated, you open the door to so many excuses to bad behavior and they all become "valid" in some way. Every atrocity can then be given an excuse, and aegis under which it was justified.

I just sympathize very much with the Jews and if spitting is the worst thing that comes up it's pretty sad given what was done to them in the name of Christianity.

It doesn't pay back anything and it shouldn't be done.
One can suympathize with the downtrodden without excusing their bad behavior, especially since the example you mentioned happened nearly 2000 years ago.

If I was walking down the streets of Jerusalem and a Jew came up and spit on my face, I wouldn't hold anything against him.
Then I feel sorry for you.

[lwdc]

I just sympathize very much with the Jews and if spitting is the worst thing that comes up it's pretty sad given what was done to them in the name of Christianity.
Then in case you missed it the first time (it appears you did), you'll be very happy to learn that in addition to the spitting, there's also the church burning, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/916567.html , and the planting of bombs in gift baskets,
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/967598.html , against those evil Christians.

[lwdc]

I like the Part where the Messianic Jew said Jesus had no intentions of starting a new religion.

If a Messianic Jew or Christian suffers at the hands of a Jew in Jerusalem, it doesn't compare in the least to what Jews suffered from Christians.

I havn't read this whole thread but I feel sympathy for the Jews doing the spitting.

Jerusalem is the Holy city of the Jews and the only claim Christians have on it is through the Priests of the Jews recorded in the Bible.

Not Only do they play the humble by letting the Muslim Mosque remain on their Temple site but they also have to deal with us Christians parading through the streets like we are the New Priests of Jerusalem.

Their Synogogues were taken over 100 years after Jesus died by the followers of Jesus.

If History repeats itself, Then maybe they have a reason to be angry at people taking over their city.

It is their city, In My opinion."rabid".

[lwdc]

Thank God that I'm not the Prime Minister of Israel because if I were, there would be no Christian Parades in Jerusalem and no Muslim Mosques, No Christian Churches, I believe in a Therocracy that's based in Jerusalem and Judaism.Yes, thank God that you aren't. :pray:

You're a Jewish extremist, except for the fact that you are not Jewish.

[lwdc]

it is the city of anyone who lives within its limits. Jews should not spit at christians. I find it disgusting and juvenile. It shames me as a jew.+1

[Harmonious]

Take it from, he's far from it. He and I may have have some core disagreements, but he's a sincere, well grounded man, who is absolutely not rabid.:hug:

[Harmonious]

jews should not spit at christians. I find it disgusting and juvenile. It shames me as a jew.
+1

[BillyBobUSA]

It is the city of anyone who lives within its limits. Jews should not spit at Christians. I find it disgusting and juvenile. It shames me as a Jew.

+1

:clap::clap::clap:

[Jacob_Rising]

Then I feel sorry for you.
This is the Ground foundation of our differences Constantine.

I adore you, and no matter what anybody says, I've humbled myself in front of you a hundred times because we have serious differences.

But I like you so much because of your Passion, I really believe that you will make it pretty soon, way better than I have a chance.

You say, '' I feel sorry for you because ''I '' Wouldn't hold it against a Jew if he spit in my face.''

If a Jew spit in my face while I was walking down the streets of Jerusalem, Why on Earth would I hold it against him?

Why do you feel sorry for me if I choose to accept what's allready deserving to me?

If A Jew spits in my face , I AM DESERVING OF EVEN WORSE!

Let the Jews gather stones and kill me, It would be a good death, and a deserving one at that.

I have broken the law above and beyone any Human being, Solomon braggs about his thousand concubines, I've had a thousand times that.

Solomon brags about his fulfilling his every desire, He doesn't even come close to me.

Constantine, I'm sure your a better man than me, But why would you hold it against a Jew if he spit in your face?

I can't get past this, Would you hold a grudge?

Because that's what ur saying.

If a Jew spits in ur face, should he go to jail, what does he owe you?

Are you completely sinless Comstantine?

Have you broken any laws that demand strict punishment?

Fornication, Lu****llness, Pride, How much do you go unpunished for the sins you commit?

David was walking along and dude walked up to him and cursed him, and David didn't want to punish this man because he knew his own sins.

[Jacob_Rising]

Yes, thank God that you aren't. :pray:

You're a Jewish extremist, except for the fact that you are not Jewish.Do you believe in the New Testament Dude?

I am exactly that, a Jewish Extremist.

Let me tell you why.

Because of the fact that there are two Kingdoms of Israel.

These two kingdmons are prophecied about in all the prophets and in the New Testament.

If you are to be the person who reigns with the Messiah in the Messianic age, then you have to be Israel.

There are no if ands or butts about this fact.

A New age is coming, This New age is Both kingdoms combined, The kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Ephraim.

The facts Remain that Ephraim is found and saved because he returns to the laws of God.

Then these ten lost tribes of Ephraim become one with Judah and together, these two kingdoms become one under one name, They will be call Israel, Jacob, and Judah.They are called Jacob becacause Jacob makes up all tribes.

If you are saved and you plan on Reigning with the Messian in the Messianic age, then you have to be from either Judah of Ephraim.

Paul explains in Romans that Gentiles who believe in the God of Israel are those lost tribes of the kingdom of Ephraim.

'' Not my people, Become my people. ''

So yes, I am a Jewish extremist, a Zionist, come back to the roots of Judaism, to the Holy days of the Messiah.Forsake anything against the law and fulfill the prophecies of Ephraim.

Gentile believers in Yeshuah are the lost sheep of Israel, the prodigal son.

God is calling gentiles to come back to the roots and Holy days about the Messsiah.

Learn them, know him.

[Jacob_Rising]

"rabid". The law will go forth from Jerusalem unto the far reaches of the world.

Those that teach the law will be priest to the Lord.

All the Precepts and all the judgements will be followed and the entire globe will come up from year to year to worship the king and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Or the plagues will consume them.

All the nations are against Israel, But Israel will prevail insomuch as the law will procede from Jerusalem, The law of Moses will be taught to the nations.

This is a therocracy, This says that the whole world will be of one religion.

You say this is Rabid thinking, but the Prophets proclaim this to be a fact.

[Jacob_Rising]

You're a Jewish extremist, except for the fact that you are not Jewish.The New Testament says, '' And therefore there is no difference between Jew and Gentile''

This is on the condition that the gentile believes in the God of Israel and adapts to it's specific traditions in law and in Holy day.

You say I'm not a Jew though, what am I lacking in my Jewishness?

There is no difference between Jew and gentile in the New Testament.

Are you more than a Jew than I?

I hope so, because that's what the New Testament encourages.

[Harmonious]

The New Testament says, '' And therefore there is no difference between Jew and Gentile''

This is on the condition that the gentile believes in the God of Israel and adapts to it's specific traditions in law and in Holy day.

You say I'm not a Jew though, what am I lacking in my Jewishness?

There is no difference between Jew and gentile in the New Testament.

Are you more than a Jew than I?

I hope so, because that's what the New Testament encourages.Sigh.

[Jacob_Rising]

Sigh.New testament.

A debate between Christians, this is what the New Testament teaches, I just back it up, sorry.

[Harmonious]

New testament.

A debate between Christians, this is what the New Testament teaches, I just back it up, sorry.
I know. It is just... when you say things like this:
You say I'm not a Jew though, what am I lacking in my Jewishness?

There is no difference between Jew and gentile in the New Testament.

Are you more than a Jew than I?


What can I tell you? You already know my feelings on the matter.

[rabbieric]

I cannot excuse a few of my fellow countrymen who may act immaturely and spit at Christian priests, though you should try to understand their position. Christians are given complete freedom of movement and religion in Israel, something which was denied the grandparents of these people. Hurt people hurt people.
I do resent though the post of lwdc which throws Messianic Jewish sects into the mix of extremist violence.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/history/histj4j.htm
Jews for jesus, messianic judaism, whatever you may call it is anything but a benign religious movement. It preys upon the ignorant on the premise if they don't convert these poor Jews they will go to hell for killing jesus. It is a hate group in every sense of the word and does not deserve the status of martyrs. I'm not excusing violence but don't excuse their behavior either.

[lwdc]

Do you believe in the New Testament Dude?

I am exactly that, a Jewish Extremist.


<snip>

So yes, I am a Jewish extremist, a Zionist, come back to the roots of Judaism
Thank you for making that clear... even though you're not Jewish.

[lwdc]

The New Testament says, '' And therefore there is no difference between Jew and Gentile''

This is on the condition that the gentile believes in the God of Israel and adapts to it's specific traditions in law and in Holy day.

You say I'm not a Jew though, what am I lacking in my Jewishness?
Your parents and your birth...

unless you go through the rigorous conversion process, and even then the Jewish High Court in Israel reserves the right to decree your conversion to be null and void.

Sorry. I don't make the rules.

[lwdc]

I do resent though the post of lwdc which throws Messianic Jewish sects into the mix of extremist violence.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/history/histj4j.htm
Jews for jesus, messianic judaism, whatever you may call it is anything but a benign religious movement. It preys upon the ignorant on the premise if they don't convert these poor Jews they will go to hell for killing jesus. It is a hate group in every sense of the word and does not deserve the status of martyrs. I'm not excusing violence but don't excuse their behavior either.I don't excuse the more radical behavior of JfJ. If you weren't a noob, you'd know that I speak truthfully.

But even less do I excuse that planting of bombs in gift baskets. And I hope to G-d that you do not excuse it either.

[Jacob_Rising]

Your parents and your birth...

unless you go through the rigorous conversion process, and even then the Jewish High Court in Israel reserves the right to decree your conversion to be null and void.

Sorry. I don't make the rules.Romans 2:29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the Flesh.

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not the letter: Whose praise is not from men but from God.

Does this scripture back you up or me up?

I only believe what is taught on this matter in the New Testament Lwdc.

If I'm wrong then this scripture is wrong.

But I also see a difference between me and a natural born Jew, I believe they have alot of reward coming to them, and alot of praise for being oppressed by the multitudes, and a different covenant than me.

But as far as the New Testament is concerned, You obviously don't know it's interpretation of what a Jew is.

Sorry, You don't know the rules.

[Alamoman]

This is not scripturally sound, but if you spit on me, I'm punching you in the face. I'll help you up off the ground and we can be friends afterward though.. ;)

[Jacob_Rising]

What can I tell you? You already know my feelings on the matter.
Again I apologize and I do know your feelings on it, and so I'm sorry if I do offend you.

But you also know my feelings on Israel, on Jews like you.

You know that I do know that there is a difference between a Christian who says he's a Jew and a Natural born Jew.

I don't believe I have replaced you or taken anything from a Jew.

If there really is a God, He is a God for the whole Earth and there can only be one truth.

We both believe that there is only one God and he is the God of Israel and the people who follow him are the followers of the God of Israel.

I think we both agree that with the coming of a Messiah to Israel will bring about the conversion of the whole world into Judaism.

I believe the nations will celebrate the feast of Tabernacles and the nations will be taught the Torah.

If this happens and all people have a common believe and a common authority, then how long will it take before you can even tell the difference between a Jew and a Gentile?

If the Torah is truly that one truth coming from just one God, then it's true for all mankind.

But I do apologize for being offensive, I mean no harm or insult.

[Jacob_Rising]

This is not scripturally sound, but if you spit on me, I'm punching you in the face. I'll help you up off the ground and we can be friends afterward though.. ;)That's funny, and I have to admit that depending on my attitude at the time, it might be dangerous.

But I would sure feel guilty later, I always do.

I'm always so proud of myself when I don't lash back at people but the Jews are different to me, I seriously doubt I would do anything except for apologizing that I was so offensive to him.

They are very, very hurt people, and they struggle everyday just to keep what they have.

The league of Nations gave them all their land back but they don't even have 1 percent of that gift.

The United nations did also, but they keep giving their land up for free.

I wouldn't blame them a bit for being angry, They give so much just to be allowed to survive and it will never be enough to those who want to take it from them.

[Alamoman]

That's funny, and I have to admit that depending on my attitude at the time, it might be dangerous.

But I would sure feel guilty later, I always do.

I'm always so proud of myself when I don't lash back at people but the Jews are different to me, I seriously doubt I would do anything except for apologizing that I was so offensive to him.

They are very, very hurt people, and they struggle everyday just to keep what they have.

The league of Nations gave them all their land back but they don't even have 1 percent of that gift.

The United nations did also, but they keep giving their land up for free.

I wouldn't blame them a bit for being angry, They give so much just to be allowed to survive and it will never be enough to those who want to take it from them.
Yeah, it's tough for us to relate to those circumstances for sure. If I lived there I'd probably want to spit on people too...

[lwdc]

Romans 2:29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the Flesh.

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not the letter: Whose praise is not from men but from God.

Does this scripture back you up or me up?It backs me up. You're all for keeping the law (nothing wrong with that), but the Apostle is saying you don't have to keep all of the law, in fact, you cannot. And when it comes to the requirement of circumcision, Paul in fact says you shouldn't. Paul uses circumcision as a metonym for the law as a whole.

The fact is you're not a big fan of things Paul wrote. Anyone who's been in these boards for a while knows that. You only use Paul's writing as prooftexts for your skewed opinions when convenient.

I only believe what is taught on this matter in the New Testament Lwdc.Baloney. You have said many things unfavorable about the teachings of the Paul in this forum.

In fact, you've said many things unfavorable about the teachings of the NT in this forum. That's fine. Lively debate is a good thing.

But don't give us your phony newly found admiration of the Apostle Paul now. It's disingenuous.

If I'm wrong then this scripture is wrong.No.

Scripture is right.

You're wrong.

But I also see a difference between me and a natural born Jew, I believe they have alot of reward coming to them, and alot of praise for being oppressed by the multitudes, and a different covenant than me.When did Paul say that?

But as far as the New Testament is concerned, You obviously don't know it's interpretation of what a Jew is.I do. You most certainly don't.

[Jacob_Rising]

It backs me up. You're all for keeping the law (nothing wrong with that), but the Apostle is saying you don't have to keep all of the law, in fact, you cannot. And when it comes to the requirement of circumcision, Paul in fact says you shouldn't. Paul uses circumcision as a metonym for the law as a whole.

The fact is you're not a big fan of things Paul wrote. Anyone who's been in these boards for a while knows that. You only use Paul's writing as prooftexts for your skewed opinions when convenient.

Baloney. You have said many things unfavorable about the teachings of the Paul in this forum.

In fact, you've said many things unfavorable about the teachings of the NT in this forum. That's fine. Lively debate is a good thing.

But don't give us your phony newly found admiration of the Apostle Paul now. It's disingenuous.

No.

Scripture is right.

You're wrong.

When did Paul say that?

I do. You most certainly don't.How does this scripture mentioned in any way back you up?

You say a Jew is by the blood and according to the rules of Israel and their laws concerning a Jew.

The New Testament says different about Jews and Israel saying Israel is not everyone born Isreal but the seed is counted in Isaac under the promise, and there is therefore no difference between Jew and Gentile.

I am very pro Torah and keeping the law, I don't keep the law and I have never made a claim that keeping the law is a requirement for salvation because I have never believed that.

I've never been against the words of Paul., I've been against the words that alot of people claim are Paul's words but are not his words.

1st Corinthians 7 starts out,'' Now concerning the things you wrote unto me''

I believe Paul starts quoting Corinthian rules and many people take them as Paul's words but are not.

I've never really liked the way Paul writes but Corinthians is the only problem I have where people say Corinthian rules are Paul's rules.

But all of that doesn't address whether you belived Paul or not when he tells you what a Jew is.

Paul says a person is counted a Jew by spirit, not by blood, Israel is counted as spiritural, not by blood and I don't see how you can contradict that.

[lwdc]

How does this scripture mentioned in any way back you up?

You say a Jew is by the blood and according to the rules of Israel and their laws concerning a Jew.YES! It is according to Judaism. It is according to its laws. It is not according to the Pauline epistles. But you choose Judaism, and according to the criteria of your own preferred belief system, you are NOT a Jew, and no knowledgeable Jew on these boards has ever said otherwise.

The New Testament says different about Jews and Israel saying Israel is not everyone born Isreal but the seed is counted in Isaac under the promise, and there is therefore no difference between Jew and Gantile.But you don't subscribe to those beliefs. You are a self-professed Jewish extremist (except that you're not Jewish) and said as much in this very thread.
I am exactly that, a Jewish Extremist.So yes, I am a Jewish extremist, a Zionist, come back to the roots of Judaism The fact is that you are not Jewish according to Judaism, and you seem to spend every waking moment trying desperately to be Jewish. The Apostle Paul can't help you with that, because he does not define Jewishness the way Judaism does.

You can't have it both ways!

I've never been against the words of Paul.<snip>I've never really liked the way Paul writes but Corinthians is the only problem I have where people say Corinthian rules are Paul's rules.
Oh please!! :rolleyes:

Remember these?

Corinthians has been a thorn to me for so long, but not only that, Paul gets to me in other places also. I just never like the guy much, I don't like how he writes and it can be shown in many places where he obviously gives off contradictions to what Jesus really had to say.

I've debated many times against the book of Corinthians saying that you cannot tell where Paul is speaking or where he is quoting the incorrect beliefs of the Corinth church, I have always believed that first Corinthians shouldn't even be in the bible because of it's flaws

Paul was only opposed to the complete Judaizing of gentiles of which I don't completely agree with.

I don't believe Paul ever meant for a Jew not to be circumcised.

He was saying that gentiles shouldn't be taught that circumcision led to salvation.

But then I have some problems with Paul myself.

Let's move on.

But all of that doesn't address whether you belived Paul or not when he tells you what a Jew is.

Paul says a person is counted a Jew by spirit, not by blood, Israel is counted as spiritural, not by blood and I don't see how you can contradict that.I don't contradict this.

YOU do.

[Jacob_Rising]

YES! It is according to Judaism. It is according to its laws. It is not according to the Pauline epistles. But you choose Judaism, and according to the criteria of your own preferred belief system, you are NOT a Jew, and no knowledgeable Jew on these boards has ever said otherwise.

But you don't subscribe to those beliefs. You are a self-professed Jewish extremist (except that you're not Jewish) and said as much in this very thread.
The fact is that you are not Jewish according to Judaism, and you seem to spend every waking moment trying desperately to be Jewish. The Apostle Paul can't help you with that, because he does not define Jewishness the way Judaism does.

You can't have it both ways!


Oh please!! :rolleyes:

Remember these?









Let's move on.

I don't contradict this.

YOU do.It's very obvious what our problem is here.

When I say Judaism, You take that to mean the Jews perspective on Judaism.

When I say Judaism, It's on the perspective of the first church which was in fact a sect of Judaism for over 100 years.

Pagans everywhere were converting to Judaism, These pagan Christians stopped celebrating the winter Solstice, they stopped believing in all these other Gods and many were killed for it.

These Gentile Pagans converted to Judaism, they came up to the outer court and heard the Law, They converted to the one true God and only his traditions and Holy days about the one truth.

Yeshuah did not come and create a new religion, he followed true Judaism, He knew the law pointed to loving Mercy, doing justly and walking humbly with your God.

All the laws come down to this.

This is Judaism in it's greatest form, I have converted to this Judaism.

I don't follow the law but I believe following the law is nothing more than rightous.

Paul said let the circumcised stay uncircumcised because this isn't what makes or breaks the nations, It's the circumcision of the heart.

But he said this in light of many who said, '' You must be circumcised to be saved'' and I don't believe that.

I am circumcised, but since my parents circumcised me, do have have to follow the complete law now?

No, The law is spiritural.

This means that every single law has a deep spritural meaning, and the law serves as a shadow of things to come and things in a spiritural realm.

So how do we as followers of the God of Israel teach these spiritual lessons to our children?

We raise them up in the way that they should go, so that things should be well for them.

I have heard a million preachers speak of these scriptures saying how to raise children and not one of them is about teaching your child to follow the laws of God so that later they may understand the spiritual meaning.

When I look down at my circumcision, I'm reminded that God demanded this of his people because it was the covenant.

But when I look at myself, I am so happy my parents had me circumcised, it's a scientific fact that the uncircumcised are way more likely to spread disease and to cause cancer in women.

But this has nothing at all with my salvation, is has to do with things going good for me in this life.

Am I now cursed because I was circumcised?

On my doorway, I have the word of God written as it should be, but I don't do this for salvation, I do this to remind me of the law written upon my heart, and I try and circumcize my heart and to cut the badness away.

I eat more Pork than any man alive and I feel so ashamed because of it.

My shame is my addiction to sausage which is no doubt killing me slowly, if I don't have a slim Jim in my back pocket ,I feel naked.

But this law has nothing to do with eating Pork, If I could slow down on eating slim Jims and sausage every day, I would probably live 20 years longer, this will not go well for me.

But what is the spiritual application for not eating Pork?

If you light a fire on the Sabbath, You deserve death by law, why is that?

All these laws are the tree of life as David said, They are so beautiful.

I think it's very sad that following the law is looked down on so much.

'' Raise that child in the way he should go'' means to teach him to follow the law, Because following the law only leads you to the deeper meaning in the law, the spiritural meaning.

If all these laws show who God is,'' And God was the word''

Then to study them and to practice them is the only way to understand them, thus it's the only way to really know God, to know the word.

I am a self professed Jewish Extreemist, I am very Pro Jew, Very Pro nation of Israel, very pro in keeping the Torah, Very Pro feasts of Israel and only those Feasts and Holy days.

FACT OR FICTION ????????????????????????

CHRISTIANITY WAS A SECT OF JUDAISM FOR OVER 100 YEARS AFTER YESHUAH DIED.

This is a fact of life, Jews say it isn't true because they never believed they were true followers of Judaism.

I'll give them that, Many Christians will point at other Christians and say,'' Those weren't really Christians''

Muslims will say the same things about other Muslims.

I subscribe to the Judaism of the first church, how Paul believed when he was showing the world that he followed the Torah and tens of thousands of Jewish believers were following the laws of God with great Zeal.

I use the word Judaism lossely I suppose, I say everyone in the world will and must convert to Judaism, and I believe that to be a fact because of future prophecies about this fact{Mysignature}

But My Judaism isn't the same as the Jews on this forum and neither do all the Jews agree themselves.

The Essenes, the Pharisees, the saducees all had great differences but they were still in Judaism.

I am well aware that the Jews don't and will never except me as a part of Judaism.

I am well aware that the christians don't and never will accept me as a part of Christianity.

That is afterall the fate of Messianics, whether they are Jew or Gentile.

We are a mix of both and neither major religion will accept us.

Big Deal.

I still say that I believe a person should try and be the best Jew he could possibly be whether he is born a gentile or a Jew.

My problem is that when the rubber meets the road, I will still be considered a gentile and stuck in the outer court of the temple which is a part of the temple, which is a shadow and symbolic of heaven.

But all I can do is try, and encourage other people to try.

[lwdc]

It's very obvious what our problem is here.

When I say Judaism, You take that to mean the Jews perspective on Judaism.

When I say Judaism, It's on the perspective of the first church which was in fact a sect of Judaism for over 100 years.Yes, in a way, that is the problem. The problem for you is that Jews who practice Judaism define what Judaism is. You don't.

I have some news for you. Christians do not practice Judaism: they do not practice the faith of the Pharisees. I know you think that they did. In fact, you think that Jesus was a Pharisee:

people don't want to admit that Jesus was a Pharasee and his first church practiced Judaism for over 100 years <snip> But it's still true.

But this interpretation of the NT, and of everything the Nazarene said and did, would be an unqualified joke, were it not an unmitigated tragedy.

[Jacob_Rising]

Yes, in a way, that is the problem. The problem for you is that Jews who practice Judaism define what Judaism is. You don't.

I have some news for you. Christians do not practice Judaism: they do not practice the faith of the Pharisees. I know you think that they did. In fact, you think that Jesus was a Pharisee:



But this interpretation of the NT, and of everything the Nazarene said and did, would be an unqualified joke, were it not an unmitigated tragedy.I'm aware that Christians don't practice Judaism the way the first church did, that's not a secret.

We seriously disagree that the Jews define what Judaism is though.

While I have great respect for these Jews on here, and my opinion is that they will be rewarded, they will be teachers of the law and they will gain fame and praise from all nations, There is still another kingdom of future destiny and prophecy.

There are still gentiles who are better than me, who practice keeping the laws and who will be rewarded for doing so.

Of course my Judaism isn't the same as orthodox Jews, But Yeshuah followed a form of Judaism different than them but not apart.

Yeshuah followed the law and Judaism the way he saw the law.

This is the Judaism I speak of, and whether you like it or not, Yeshuah practiced Judaism, Paul practiced Judaism, all the desciples practiced Judaism, That's a fact.

It wasn't like the Pharasees of the day but it was still a part of it.

Christianity supposedly teaches that all the laws can be summed up with loving the Lord with all your heart, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

This is my Judaism and what I believe the law to mean, it is nonetheless Judaism.

Judaism teaches love, respect, honour, good will torwards men, hospitality, sacrifice and all the laws point to these values, that's Judaism.

Jesus and Paul also had a different definition of Judaism, so I'm in that crowd.

[Harmonious]

Again I apologize and I do know your feelings on it, and so I'm sorry if I do offend you.I'm not sure that you offend me (usually, and certainly not this time) as much as you confuse me. Some of the things you say don't make sense to anyone but you.

I'm glad YOU are happy with your beliefs, even if no one else understands them. Including me.

But you also know my feelings on Israel, on Jews like you.Yes, I do. It's a beautiful thing. :)

You know that I do know that there is a difference between a Christian who says he's a Jew and a Natural born Jew.Yes, a Christian who never was a Jew who says that he IS a Jew is truly confused.

A Jew who is born a Jew will die a Jew, even if he accepts beliefs that are not Jewish. But if he knowingly chooses to follow a different religion, other Jews may not treat him as a Jew until he finds his way back to Judaism.

And people, regardless of what religion they started from who take the time to convert properly to Judaism are considered as Jewish as Jews who were born Jews. (Only, women who convert to Judaism can't marry Cohanim. But then again, neither can I, because I'm divorced.)

I don't believe I have replaced you or taken anything from a Jew.No one said you did.

If there really is a God, He is a God for the whole Earth and there can only be one truth.Of course there can only be one truth. But within that truth, God delineated what He expects of Jews and what He expects of non-Jews. They are two different sets of expectations.

God gave the Jews the entire Torah. God gave the non-Jews the Laws of Noah. God doesn't like non-Jews less because they don't have the Torah. They just aren't Jews.

We both believe that there is only one God and he is the God of Israel and the people who follow him are the followers of the God of Israel.No. The Jews who follow Him are Israel. Others who follow the God of Israel are righteous non-Jews.

Their belief in our God does not make them Jews. Their love of our God does not make them Jews.

Mimi is a prime example. She follows the laws that God commanded the non-Jews, and she actively helps Jews learn more about Torah. It is a beautiful thing.

She loves God and knows that God loves her, and she is not Jewish. And all is well with the world.

I think we both agree that with the coming of a Messiah to Israel will bring about the conversion of the whole world into Judaism.
No. The whole world will not convert to Judaism. The world will realize that Jews were RIGHT the whole time, but they won't necessarily convert.

Jews will find their way back to the Torah, and non-Jews will want to follow Torah law as it was given to non-Jews. If they want to do more, bully for them. They can convert properly, if they so choose. But if not, they will be beloved non-Jews to God.

I believe the nations will celebrate the feast of Tabernacles and the nations will be taught the Torah.Yup. But they still won't be Jews.

If this happens and all people have a common believe and a common authority, then how long will it take before you can even tell the difference between a Jew and a Gentile?It will always be, because God commands that the Jews stay separate. It will be a sign of the times that even though all people serve God, Jews will still be recognized as Jews, and will stay as Jews, while non-Jews will stay as non-Jews.

Even if the whole world decides to celebrate Sukkot, only the Jews can bring the Passover offering (to the Temple).

If the Torah is truly that one truth coming from just one God, then it's true for all mankind.It is TRUE, that doesn't change. But all mankind is not commanded to do what JEWS are commanded to do. And that ALSO doesn't change.

But I do apologize for being offensive, I mean no harm or insult.I know. :hug:

[Harmonious]

I'm aware that Christians don't practice Judaism the way the first church did, that's not a secret.

We seriously disagree that the Jews define what Judaism is though.

While I have great respect for these Jews on here, and my opinion is that they will be rewarded, they will be teachers of the law and they will gain fame and praise from all nations, There is still another kingdom of future destiny and prophecy.

There are still gentiles who are better than me, who practice keeping the laws and who will be rewarded for doing so.

Of course my Judaism isn't the same as orthodox Jews, But Yeshuah followed a form of Judaism different than them but not apart.

Yeshuah followed the law and Judaism the way he saw the law.

This is the Judaism I speak of, and whether you like it or not, Yeshuah practiced Judaism, Paul practiced Judaism, all the desciples practiced Judaism, That's a fact.

It wasn't like the Pharasees of the day but it was still a part of it.

Christianity supposedly teaches that all the laws can be summed up with loving the Lord with all your heart, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

This is my Judaism and what I believe the law to mean, it is nonetheless Judaism.

Judaism teaches love, respect, honour, good will torwards men, hospitality, sacrifice and all the laws point to these values, that's Judaism.

Jesus and Paul also had a different definition of Judaism, so I'm in that crowd.Dude. No.

That is the thing, though.

What I'm going to say is going to be controversial.

Jesus and most of his original followers were Jews. I won't challenge you there.

What I WILL challenge is that once they deviated from Torah law (as is thought of as Orthodox Judaism today), they were NOT following Judaism.

There is the Torah, and there is not the Torah.

If Jews follow the Torah, they are living Judaism. If they don't follow the Torah, they are still Jews, but what they are doing that deviates from Torah law IS NOT JUDAISM.

Jews celebrate Shabbat. Jews who are not religious drive on Shabbat. Driving to shul on Shabbat is NOT part of the Torah. It is against the Torah. I would say that even though the destination is a worthy destination, the driving on Shabbat is NOT Judaism.

Your saying that Jews don't define Judaism insults me.

Loving your neighbor as yourself is a beautiful thing. But it is not, all by its lonesome, Judaism. There are all kinds of explanations of HOW to do that. Judaism is not made up of warm fuzzies. (Although I have nothing against warm fuzzies. I LIVE for warm fuzzies.)

Love, like all emotions commanded by the Torah, have definitions. Warm fuzzies is a good place to start, but it is not the be all and end all.

There are the laws defining charity. There are laws of honesty. There are laws regarding speech towards our fellow humans. There are laws regarding how one behaves towards one's parents. There are laws regarding how one treats a friend, there are laws regarding how one treats one's spouse.

There are laws for how one treats someone you don't like very much.

But all of these things are supposed to be taken seriously. It can be done.

If someone, anyone, says that they've abandoned Torah law "just for love," they are certainly NOT following Judaism.

[Jacob_Rising]

I'm not sure that you offend me (usually, and certainly not this time) as much as you confuse me. Some of the things you say don't make sense to anyone but you.

I'm glad YOU are happy with your beliefs, even if no one else understands them. Including me.

Yes, I do. It's a beautiful thing. :)

Yes, a Christian who never was a Jew who says that he IS a Jew is truly confused.

A Jew who is born a Jew will die a Jew, even if he accepts beliefs that are not Jewish. But if he knowingly chooses to follow a different religion, other Jews may not treat him as a Jew until he finds his way back to Judaism.

And people, regardless of what religion they started from who take the time to convert properly to Judaism are considered as Jewish as Jews who were born Jews. (Only, women who convert to Judaism can't marry Cohanim. But then again, neither can I, because I'm divorced.)

No one said you did.

Of course there can only be one truth. But within that truth, God delineated what He expects of Jews and what He expects of non-Jews. They are two different sets of expectations.

God gave the Jews the entire Torah. God gave the non-Jews the Laws of Noah. God doesn't like non-Jews less because they don't have the Torah. They just aren't Jews.

No. The Jews who follow Him are Israel. Others who follow the God of Israel are righteous non-Jews.

Their belief in our God does not make them Jews. Their love of our God does not make them Jews.

Mimi is a prime example. She follows the laws that God commanded the non-Jews, and she actively helps Jews learn more about Torah. It is a beautiful thing.

She loves God and knows that God loves her, and she is not Jewish. And all is well with the world.

No. The whole world will not convert to Judaism. The world will realize that Jews were RIGHT the whole time, but they won't necessarily convert.

Jews will find their way back to the Torah, and non-Jews will want to follow Torah law as it was given to non-Jews. If they want to do more, bully for them. They can convert properly, if they so choose. But if not, they will be beloved non-Jews to God.

Yup. But they still won't be Jews.

It will always be, because God commands that the Jews stay separate. It will be a sign of the times that even though all people serve God, Jews will still be recognized as Jews, and will stay as Jews, while non-Jews will stay as non-Jews.

Even if the whole world decides to celebrate Sukkot, only the Jews can bring the Passover offering (to the Temple).

It is TRUE, that doesn't change. But all mankind is not commanded to do what JEWS are commanded to do. And that ALSO doesn't change.

I know. :hug:
I greatly respect MIMI too, she's not that far off from what I believe but I know I'm crazy man on the corner and nobody gets me.

I quote the New Testament saying a Jew is a person who is a Jew inwardly.

I have met very many Jews in just the last few years but I raely run across Jews like you Harmonious.

You are a different Jew than the Majority and probably different than at least half the nation of Israel.

You have an uncommon hunger to seek God and to do what pleases God, you believe in his promises so much and many Jews don't.

You are a true Jew, both outwardly and inward.

This scripture in the New Testament applies to you in my opinion, You know very well who God is and you love him so much.

It's passion in seeking the Lord from his Torah that makes a Jew in my opinion.

There are alot of Jews out there that will say that the Jordan never split, or the red sea, they will say the flood didn't happen.

There are alot of gentile Christians out there that claim to be the New Jew, the New Jerusalem, the New Israel.

But it's really not hard to spot a Jew in my opinion.

They have more Passion in seeking God than anyone else, and the only way to seek God is through his Torah.

I expect very soon that God will rise up and point at blood born Jews and say, '' These are my people''

He will take Jews like you with Passion for him, and he will make you a praise and a fame.

But I also believe he will gather many gentiles who stand with Israel, who stand behind the Jew, who stand behind the Torah.

'' Gentiles will carry the Jews back on their shoulders''

Isaiah says that the gentiles who choose to do what pleases God will in no way be counted out of the inheritance of Israel.

Maybe Mimi is right, maybe I need to just stick to my Noahide code.

Maybe I'm just jealous.

Confused maybe, but I still know one fact, God will bless those who bless Israel.

Maybe I am wrong and maybe I'll be punished, But it wont be for antiSemitism.

I just believe the laws to be rightous, to be the only one truth.

And I believe the Jews will be rewarded for their bringing the oracles, for standing and dying because of them.

But I also believe that they are truth, and Truth should be followed whether Jew or Gentile.

That still doesn't take away how special the chosen natural born Jew is to God, I'm just an addition in my opinion, and I'm standing at the left hand of the stage.

While you have a destiny, I have acceptance, in my opinion.

[Jacob_Rising]

Dude. No.

That is the thing, though.

What I'm going to say is going to be controversial.

Jesus and most of his original followers were Jews. I won't challenge you there.

What I WILL challenge is that once they deviated from Torah law (as is thought of as Orthodox Judaism today), they were NOT following Judaism.

There is the Torah, and there is not the Torah.

If Jews follow the Torah, they are living Judaism. If they don't follow the Torah, they are still Jews, but what they are doing that deviates from Torah law IS NOT JUDAISM.

Jews celebrate Shabbat. Jews who are not religious drive on Shabbat. Driving to shul on Shabbat is NOT part of the Torah. It is against the Torah. I would say that even though the destination is a worthy destination, the driving on Shabbat is NOT Judaism.

Your saying that Jews don't define Judaism insults me.

Loving your neighbor as yourself is a beautiful thing. But it is not, all by its lonesome, Judaism. There are all kinds of explanations of HOW to do that. Judaism is not made up of warm fuzzies. (Although I have nothing against warm fuzzies. I LIVE for warm fuzzies.)

Love, like all emotions commanded by the Torah, have definitions. Warm fuzzies is a good place to start, but it is not the be all and end all.

There are the laws defining charity. There are laws of honesty. There are laws regarding speech towards our fellow humans. There are laws regarding how one behaves towards one's parents. There are laws regarding how one treats a friend, there are laws regarding how one treats one's spouse.

There are laws for how one treats someone you don't like very much.

But all of these things are supposed to be taken seriously. It can be done.

If someone, anyone, says that they've abandoned Torah law "just for love," they are certainly NOT following Judaism.That's all fair enough, I can understand where you are coming from.

I have the same feelings torwards the majority of Christians, '' Once you do this, you are no longer in the gang''

But I do take the law seriously, and while I believe that the law comes down to two commandments, This only furthers my respect for it.

All the laws concerning me, or how I treat other people i s out of justice and rightousness, punishment comes from Justice, and punishment is not apart from love.

I can't think of any laws that don't make common sense.

And I apologize for saying that Orthodox Jews don't define Judaism, I know it must be offensive.

I can only say that I feel like I'm a part of Judaism even though I'm not accepted by any members in it.

If people ask me what I believe, I say, '' I practice Judaism''

As wrong as I may be, That's what I believe that I do.

I've acknowledged many times that I've been wrong many times, I've even recognized weeks, months of being a delusional person and I'm aware of that fact.

So I'm not too big a threat, I could still be wrong, I'll apologize again when I see the light.:doh:

[Jacob_Rising]

It will always be, because God commands that the Jews stay separate. It will be a sign of the times that even though all people serve God, Jews will still be recognized as Jews, and will stay as Jews, while non-Jews will stay as non-Jews.

Even if the whole world decides to celebrate Sukkot, only the Jews can bring the Passover offering (to the Temple).

It is TRUE, that doesn't change. But all mankind is not commanded to do what JEWS are commanded to do. And that ALSO doesn't change.

I know. :hug:You know my 3 favorite redundant arguments and debates here Harmonious.

#1 The ten tribes of Israel called the Kingdom of Ephraim became gentiles, and you have seen me argue this a thousand times, so we know where we stand on this.

I believe gentiles who believe in the God of Israel who gain respect for the Torah and for Israel will be that found lost sheep of the Northern kingdom.

Mimi would be a very good example of this, She's gentile who knows what's going on, she knows the truth and I believe her to be a true member of the kingdom of Ephraim by being a gentile who loves the Lord and respects the Jews and their role with following God's heritage.

But let's say I'm wrong with this.

#2 I believe the tribe of Benjamin is within both Northern and Southern kingdom and they represnt true Jews who have passion who become the beloved of the Lord. Jerusalem is in Benjamin.

#3 Sukkot which you are well aware how much I promote this festival from the prophecy of Zechariah.


So let's forget #1, and #2.

Let's find common ground in Sukkot.

What does Sukkot memorialize?

What does the feast of Nations, the feast of Tabernacles mean to you and the history of Israel.

Celebrating Sukkot is coming out of the world system of Babylon, coming out of the world system of Egypt and co-habitating with God.

The feast of Tabernacles is the most Holyest time in Israel History when God dwelled among his people when he brought them out of slavery to the world, and made them HIS own nation.

If the entire Globe is to celebrate this feast of Israel's past.

Why?

The only reason that makes sense to me is that God used the Jews to be his chosen people to show the world what was right.

For the Jews to be a light and an example as to what is coming on the whole world.

I believe the Jews being thrown in the furnaces and being famous for just that is a preview of what is coming on this world when God comes to fight for Israel and fire will test the works of all men and their intentions torwards Jerusalem{Zech}

So why would the entire Globe have to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles?

Because the Jews led the way as an example of God bringing the world out of Egypt, out of Babylon, to make a feast with him.

I can only believe that history will repeat itself and God will dwell with his people again, but this time, the entire world is involved.

Thus the entire world memoralizes the wanderings in the desert, the dwelling in booths, and the co-habitation with God.

[Constantine the Great]

... and the only way to seek God is through his Torah.
If this is the only way then why do you even follow the NT? IF the only way is through the Torah, then the NT is worthless yet you place so much stock in the words of someone you actually can't stand (St. Paul). These are contradictory statements J_R. The more you type, the murkier your spiritual waters become.

[Jacob_Rising]

If this is the only way then why do you even follow the NT? IF the only way is through the Torah, then the NT is worthless yet you place so much stock in the words of someone you actually can't stand (St. Paul). These are contradictory statements J_R. The more you type, the murkier your spiritual waters become.Christianity claims that Yeshuah is the word, He is the Torah, do you deny this Constantine?

Can you say he was your Passover lamb with pertaining to the Torah?

I claim the word is God.

You obviously don't.

If God is the word, then his Torah is the way to get to know and how to seek God.

Following God's heritage{ laws and traditions} supposedly teach about God.

Maybe I'm wrong yet again.

Jesus said, '' Whoesoever keeps the least of the laws of Moses and teaches others to keep the laws of Moses will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven''

Was he wrong?

[Constantine the Great]

I wouldn't blame them a bit for being angry, They give so much just to be allowed to survive and it will never be enough to those who want to take it from them.

Ummm, what exactly does someone give that enables them to be insulting in such a vulgar fashion in your opinion?

[Constantine the Great]

Christianity claims that Yeshuah is the word, He is the Torah, do you deny this Constantine?
Of course not. As a Christian I profess Christ is the Truth and the Light.

Can you say he was your Passover lamb with pertaining to the Torah?
He was our Passover pertaining to our Salvation. I don't know exactly what you mean by "pertaining to the Torah".


I claim the word is God.

You obviously don't.
Wrong; as a Trinitarian, I claim the Word is Christ, who IS GOD.


If God is the word, then his Torah is the way to get to know and how to seek God.
The Torah is only half of the equation. The NT is the other half, from a Christian perspective of course.


Following God's heritage{ laws and traditions} supposedly teach about God.
Yes, but for Christians, the NT is part of those teachings, heritage and traditions.


Jesus said, '' Whoesoever keeps the least of the laws of Moses and teaches others to keep the laws of Moses will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven''

Was he wrong?

Of course not. However, again, your post completely excludes the NT which is THE more significant part to Christian faith. Now if you want to be Jewish, then fine disregard the NT. But you can't really claim to be Christian and then turn around and not give the NT its due.

[Jacob_Rising]

Ummm, what exactly does someone give that enables them to be insulting in such a vulgar fashion in your opinion?
You call that vulgar?

It's my belief that God will come fighting for his chosen people, those very Jews doing the spitting vulgar or not.

There was once the greatest of men who saw something wrong in Jerusalem.

This Hero who will be remembered for eternity picked up a sword and ran through his own countrymen because he was so Zealous for the Lord.

A man who couldn't stand to see his city and temple desecrated.


The Prophets speak of a time when people will tremble at the very mention of Judah.

Judah will fight alongside the Messiah and no gentile will walk the streets.

Zech- Every pot in Judah will be Holiness to the Lord-Romans,'' And all Israel will be saved.

God comes fighting for the Jews because of the worlds intentions.

Right now everyone is deciding the fate of Jerusalem.

Jan 19 2009 we abstained from voting in the security council which made a resolution against Israel, another was made in Feb where we let Israel down once again.

Not Only are the Palistinians and Arab countries calling for the genoicide of Israel, but we are at fault also right now.

They have been dwindled down to nothing.

Everyone in Jerusalem says they own Jerusalem.

The League of nations gave them their land____STOLEN/GIVEN AWAY

The United Nations gave them their land____LIARS_STOLEN/GIVEN AWAY/PROMISES BROKEN/RESOLUTIONS AGAINST THEM.

It's just lights and mirrors because God gave them that land and everyone will soon learn that fact.

Spitting is nothing compared to the payback God is coming to give those who are against Israel and the Jews owning Jerusalem.

I'm not saying that those who were spit on were deserving.

I'm just stating the sheer fact that Israel is the only country in the world who lets people trample on their city and their culture to what's Holy in their only Holy city.

I'm saying that these Jews are being oppressed not just by Muslims but By Christians also, and Christians should not be in this group.

I f Christians are doing something that is so disrespectful of Jews in their own city, well then those Christians should not be offending those Jews.

This is truth by Christian standards of being everyman to people.

To be sacrificing, to be humble, and to respect the people of God's wishes, to recognize the authority of the Rabbis.

If any single Jew came in here and wrote me a private message saying I offened them, and asked me never to post in this forum again.

I would never once post in this forum again on their request.

The Jews have been oppressed for way to long, and for decades, it's obvious that it's a time of blessing Israel.

Vulgar?

You act like they live in Sweden and get everything given to them on a plate.

May 15th, The day after they became a nation they went to war.

They have been trying to survive ever since and it's not like living in America.

Their entire country would fit inside of Lake Michigan when way room left over.

But they can even have this half piece of one percent of the land God Guaranteed them without watching offending parades all day long in their face , in the only piece of property they have left.

I would rather be spit on than have rockets flying over head everyday.

I get called a Jew everyday on Halo, Just because it's a derogatory term.

It's a sheer wonder why they spit instead of taking up arms throwing every non Jew out of the Region.

[Jacob_Rising]

Of course not. As a Christian I profess Christ is the Truth and the Light.


He was our Passover pertaining to our Salvation. I don't know exactly what you mean by "pertaining to the Torah".



Wrong; as a Trinitarian, I claim the Word is Christ, who IS GOD.



The Torah is only half of the equation. The NT is the other half, from a Christian perspective of course.



Yes, but for Christians, the NT is part of those teachings, heritage and traditions.




Of course not. However, again, your post completely excludes the NT which is THE more significant part to Christian faith. Now if you want to be Jewish, then fine disregard the NT. But you can't really claim to be Christian and then turn around and not give the NT its due.I thought I would save this for tomorow, it was nice talking with you as always, but I gotta get to bed .

I wish you would get Halo on line so we could play.

You claim the word is Christ, which is God.

This is what I claim Constantine.

Another word for the word is Torah.

You might not want to include the New Testament within Torah Limits.

I know the Jews in No way consider the New testament as Torah.

But when I say Torah, I mean specifically the law and the prophets sometimes but I also include the New Testament in there in many cases, In my opinion.

Torah means instruction.

To me the Torah is the whole Bible and that Yeshuah is that Bible, He is the word, He i s all the scriptures, all the Torah, all the traditions.

[Beowulf]

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them



Matthew 5:10-12 (King James Version)



10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.Good find.

[BillyBobUSA]

Good find.


Lol

And when the antiChrists are torturing her children so she can hear them scream like the Christ haters do in China, I guess she wont weep for them but shout 'Glory Hallelujah! My children will get a greater eward in Heaven!"?

No.

Martyrdom is NOT something any rational person wants to receive.

It is Gods alone and we do ourselves and our own harm by coveting it.

[Constantine the Great]

You call that vulgar?
Among other things; yes. Do you know that Hepatits B can be transmitted via saliva? It's more than just vulgar J_R. Vulgar, would be the mild, hannity forum description.

It's my belief that God will come fighting for his chosen people, those very Jews doing the spitting vulgar or not.
Are there Scriptures to back this up? THat God will fight for the Jew who spits on someone else? I did a search on the web, couldn't find it. I'm no Torah scholar of course but somehow I don't think God is that disgustingly juvenile.

There was once the greatest of men who saw something wrong in Jerusalem.

This Hero who will be remembered for eternity picked up a sword and ran through his own countrymen because he was so Zealous for the Lord.

A man who couldn't stand to see his city and temple desecrated.
Good for him, but history is full of people doing things for the Lord or in the name of the Lord. Some good, some not so good.


The Prophets speak of a time when people will tremble at the very mention of Judah.
I actually admire and respect Jews and Israel as a nation. Tremble? Nah, not so much.

Judah will fight alongside the Messiah and no gentile will walk the streets.
Our Messiah has already come and will return again. He tells me that we are all HIs people, He came for Jew and Gentile alike. So I think I'll take HIs words, over your theories where God comes to reward those who spit on me.

Zech- Every pot in Judah will be Holiness to the Lord-Romans,'' And all Israel will be saved.

God comes fighting for the Jews because of the worlds intentions.

Right now everyone is deciding the fate of Jerusalem.
Actually terrorists have been doing most of the deciding. They launch attacks, ISrael responds, rinse and repeat.

Jan 19 2009 we abstained from voting in the security council which made a resolution against Israel, another was made in Feb where we let Israel down once again.

Not Only are the Palistinians and Arab countries calling for the genoicide of Israel, but we are at fault also right now.
I agree we've been handling the situation all wrong, both with BUsh, and now with *bleh* B. Hussein Obama. And the UN ius useless. Still, it does not explain by what justification Jews have the priviledge of spitting on me or those like me or doing even worse. As ldwc pointed out, there's sometimes acts of terrorism carried out against Christians and it's not always the Pali's doing it.

They have been dwindled down to nothing.
The Jewish virtual library places the Jewish population worldwide to around 13mil.
The worldwide Greek population is estimated to about 15 mil. I see nothing wrong with the number, nor do I see it being "dwindled down to nothing".

Everyone in Jerusalem says they own Jerusalem.
Show me. Simply saying "everyone says..." is hardly grounds for a sound argument.

The League of nations gave them their land____STOLEN/GIVEN AWAY

The United Nations gave them their land____LIARS_STOLEN/GIVEN AWAY/PROMISES BROKEN/RESOLUTIONS AGAINST THEM.
Yes, the UN is inefficient and run by cowards, but you still haven't explained what gives someone the right/priviledge to be disgustingly juvenile.

It's just lights and mirrors because God gave them that land and everyone will soon learn that fact.

Spitting is nothing compared to the payback God is coming to give those who are against Israel and the Jews owning Jerusalem.

I'm not saying that those who were spit on were deserving.

I'm just stating the sheer fact that Israel is the only country in the world who lets people trample on their city and their culture to what's Holy in their only Holy city.
So much longwindedness. They choose to run their city as they see fit, mainly to keep the region from exploding. If they were to tear down the Dome of the Rock, it would be disasterous for the region and they know it.
I'm saying that these Jews are being oppressed not just by Muslims but By Christians also, and Christians should not be in this group.
Which Christians are doing the oppressing and how?

I f Christians are doing something that is so disrespectful of Jews in their own city, well then those Christians should not be offending those Jews.
What exactly did the Orthodox priest do to offend?

This is truth by Christian standards of being everyman to people.

To be sacrificing, to be humble, and to respect the people of God's wishes, to recognize the authority of the Rabbis.
No, as Christians we are MOST CERTAINLY NOT TO RECOGNIZE THE AUTHORITY OF ANY RABBI OVER US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Jews have been oppressed for way to long, and for decades, it's obvious that it's a time of blessing Israel.

Vulgar?

You act like they live in Sweden and get everything given to them on a plate.
NO, I expect people to act civilized. Too much for some, I know. BUt the expectation is always there.

May 15th, The day after they became a nation they went to war.

They have been trying to survive ever since and it's not like living in America.

Their entire country would fit inside of Lake Michigan when way room left over.

But they can even have this half piece of one percent of the land God Guaranteed them without watching offending parades all day long in their face , in the only piece of property they have left.
If they are offended by a parade, there's a simple solution; don't watch. If you want to call yourself a pluralistic society, a free society, a democracy, you tolerate such displays just as we do here in the U.S. I have no interest in gay pride parades and homosexuality is a sin in the Orthodox faith. Guess what, I don't attend them.

I would rather be spit on than have rockets flying over head everyday.
Christians aren't the ones launching rockets.

I get called a Jew everyday on Halo, Just because it's a derogatory term.
Find different people to play with.

It's a sheer wonder why they spit instead of taking up arms throwing every non Jew out of the Region.

Because if they did they would be no better than the terrorists launching the rockets. A terrorist has no nationality. It's a club anyone can join, even a Jew.

[Constantine the Great]

I thought I would save this for tomorow, it was nice talking with you as always, but I gotta get to bed .

I wish you would get Halo on line so we could play.
Xbox or PC? Halo 1 or 2?

You claim the word is Christ, which is God.

This is what I claim Constantine.

Another word for the word is Torah.
Ok, that's clearer thanks.

You might not want to include the New Testament within Torah Limits.

I know the Jews in No way consider the New testament as Torah.
As an Orthodox Christian, there view is; the Old Testament is the Old Testament, the New is the New. That's the categorization.

But when I say Torah, I mean specifically the law and the prophets sometimes but I also include the New Testament in there in many cases, In my opinion.

Torah means instruction.

To me the Torah is the whole Bible and that Yeshuah is that Bible, He is the word, He i s all the scriptures, all the Torah, all the traditions.

Then why does it seem your views more often than not draw solely from the OT?

[Harmonious]

Jacob, do not call the NT Torah. It is not, it never was, and it never will be.

I realize that it is important to you, but if you are serious about not offending Jews, you will NOT do that again.

You want to call the NT holy, go for it. Call it special. Call it authentic. Call it The Last Word. Call it whatever. BUT DO NOT CALL IT TORAH.

[Mimiheart]

Wait, how'd I get in this conversation?

That said, NT is NOT NOT NOT Torah.

[Jacob_Rising]

Wait, how'd I get in this conversation?

That said, NT is NOT NOT NOT Torah.
Sorry Mimi, :doh: Your probably sitting there saying, '' Dang don't use me for your examples JR''

But your so much in a league of your own, Your like the only person I've met in your religion and it's a real cool thing.

[Jacob_Rising]

Jacob, do not call the NT Torah. It is not, it never was, and it never will be.

I realize that it is important to you, but if you are serious about not offending Jews, you will NOT do that again.

You want to call the NT holy, go for it. Call it special. Call it authentic. Call it The Last Word. Call it whatever. BUT DO NOT CALL IT TORAH.
Ok Harmonious, I promise I wont say that on here again per your request.

[Mimiheart]

Sorry Mimi, :doh: Your probably sitting there saying, '' Dang don't use me for your examples JR''

But your so much in a league of your own, Your like the only person I've met in your religion and it's a real cool thing.
I don't mind, it's more I was just glancing through this thread and I saw my name and went, "Bwuah?? Christians, Jerusalem, Jews, and spitting, where do I fit in here?"

[archangelo]

Where else can an act of spitting in someone's face become a matter for "theological" discussion?

Probably, everywhere else.


:rolleyes:

[Harmonious]

I don't mind, it's more I was just glancing through this thread and I saw my name and went, "Bwuah?? Christians, Jerusalem, Jews, and spitting, where do I fit in here?"
Sorry. It was my fault. You were an example of a non-Jew living according to the Torah quite happily while not being or calling yourself a Jew.

I introduced you here (http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49707751&postcount=70).

Sorry. :redface:

[Harmonious]

Ok Harmonious, I promise I wont say that on here again per your request.

Thank you.

[Mimiheart]

Sorry. It was my fault. You were an example of a non-Jew living according to the Torah quite happily while not being or calling yourself a Jew.

I introduced you here (http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49707751&postcount=70).

Sorry. :redface:
Okay, no problem. Just confused. :D :hug:

[Jacob_Rising]

Xbox or PC? Halo 1 or 2?


Ok, that's clearer thanks.


As an Orthodox Christian, there view is; the Old Testament is the Old Testament, the New is the New. That's the categorization.



Then why does it seem your views more often than not draw solely from the OT?
x-box, Halo 2.

I bought a 360, beat Halo 3 and gave it to me son, I still have to get another 360.

Isaiah 8:20 To the Law and the Testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

This scripture is also in the New Testament.

The Law and the Prophets is the standard by which everything considered scripture is derived.

I believe if you want to show something to be true in the New Testament, you prove it by the old and not the other way around.

But I speak from the Old Testament more because I can understand future events from it better than the New.

I believe the Old Testament is the inspired word of God and so is the New.

But in the Old Testament it was God giving instruction with his own mouth, and the Prophets were men who were given the oracles of Prophecies, promises and future events.

Israel has very, very many unfulfilled promises that God must make good and I look for those prophecies.

I believe Yeshuah came and fulfilled many prophecies but there are more unfulfilled than fulfilled.

When I speak of Israel and who God's people are, I count you in that category. I believe you are part of Israel and thus part of God's people as being adopted into the people of God.

When I speak of Judah, I'm speaking entirely of the Jews.

There are very many unfulfilled prophecies about Judah, and many unfulfilled prophecies of the house of Joseph.

Alot of people look at the Old Testament as being completely fulfilled but it's not.

There are still many promises made to Judah that have not yet been fulfilled, and because I'm speaking where Jews are, I would rather speak from the law and the prophets because they are much more likely to hear what I say rather than speaking from the New Testament.

[BillyBobUSA]

Can someone translate the following line into Hebrew or whatever language they speak in Isreal for me?

"Please, I am a Christian but do not spit on me; I am not so forgiving as my weak bretheren."

It will be appreciated.

[Harmonious]

Can someone translate the following line into Hebrew or whatever language they speak in Isreal for me?

"Please, I am a Christian but do not spit on me; I am not so forgiving as my weak bretheren."

It will be appreciated.
:redface:

Yeah. I'm not happy about that.

[Jacob_Rising]

Can someone translate the following line into Hebrew or whatever language they speak in Isreal for me?

"Please, I am a Christian but do not spit on me; I am not so forgiving as my weak bretheren."

It will be appreciated.Weak Brethren? What is that supposed to mean?

In Christianity there is no sueing, if a man steals your coat, you give it to them.

If you get slapped around you reply, '' I deserved it'' because you do.

The weak get mad, The weak strike back, the weak take offense.

It takes a strong man to take an insult from somebody and change it into something good.

If your spit on, walk up to the person and engage him, be humble and apologize because you are offensive.

Be everything to everyman.

There is only one true shame in this world against the evil.

When people spit on you, you walk up, buy them a Cokacola and apologize for being offensive, and you stop what your doing that angers them so much.

That is Christian.

So I'm a Hypocitaposomas, because I do lash out at people and it would be dangerous to mess with me most of the time.

But when I act out in anger , I'm so ashamed later, I always wished I could have been a better man.

It may be that somebody spitting on you is the one chance in your lifetime to do something honourable.

It's such a small thing, to wipe the spit away and then try and understand the person who spit on you.

Walk up to them and resolve the issue, what better chance in life could anyone have?

I would hope that I acted in a loving manner, I know myself, I pretty much know what I would do in this situation.

It would be like my ship rolling in.

What an opportunity to show sincere love for your neighbor.

[BillyBobUSA]

:redface:

Yeah. I'm not happy about that.


Who would be?

As a Christian, Westboro Baptists leave me speachless with embarrassment for our faith.

Wackos exist in all religions, apparently.

Wish Jerusalems government took this more seriously.

[nofear2]

Who would be?

As a Christian, Westboro Baptists leave me speachless with embarrassment for our faith.

Wackos exist in all religions, apparently.

Wish Jerusalems government took this more seriously.

Something people do not take into account is that preaching the gospel and missionary activity in Israel is illegal. This doesn't make what is done to them justified yet I understand where many of the Jews are coming from.

Israel may be somewhat "Democratic" yet at the end of the day it is a Jewish State.

This means that a Christian can practice his/her faith in peace and is to be fully respected under Jewish law, provided that he/she does not in any way try making a Jew stray from their faith.

[Constantine the Great]

If you get slapped around you reply, '' I deserved it'' because you do.
Wrong, we don't say "I deserved it", and no we don't deserve it. Christ's example is not that we deserve to have wrongdoings inflicted on us, but that we are always supposed to take the meek, humble, patient, loving route. BIG DIFFERENCE.


If your spit on, walk up to the person and engage him, be humble and apologize because you are offensive.
There is nothing offensive about being a Christian or a person of any faith in and of itself.

Be everything to everyman.
Wrong. Don't be everything to everyone. Be a Christian to everyone.

There is only one true shame in this world against the evil.

When people spit on you, you walk up, buy them a Cokacola and apologize for being offensive, and you stop what your doing that angers them so much.

That is Christian.
Wrong again. People are being spit on simply for being Christian and displaying it. This is not offensive, this is freedom, and Israel does tout itself as a Parliamentary Republic.

[nofear2]

Wrong again. People are being spit on simply for being Christian and displaying it. This is not offensive, this is freedom, and Israel does tout itself as a Parliamentary Republic.
Read my post

[Jacob_Rising]

Wrong, we don't say "I deserved it", and no we don't deserve it. Christ's example is not that we deserve to have wrongdoings inflicted on us, but that we are always supposed to take the meek, humble, patient, loving route. BIG DIFFERENCE.



There is nothing offensive about being a Christian or a person of any faith in and of itself.


Wrong. Don't be everything to everyone. Be a Christian to everyone.


Wrong again. People are being spit on simply for being Christian and displaying it. This is not offensive, this is freedom, and Israel does tout itself as a Parliamentary Republic.Then you and I come away with a completely different look at Christianity.

The Christianity I know is sacrificing yourself because you know that you deserve anything that comes along.

This was the difference between Job and his friends that he could never make understand.

His friends never understood that Job himself knew that he was deserving of punishment.

Allthough Job was the most rightous, and allthough he knew that he served God better than anyman, He also knew that there was nothing much to say about it.

Job was severely punished, But what could he say?

In Christianity, if somebody comes up to you and slaps you in your face, You turn around and be nice to the person and show kindness to that person. You love your enemy.

We all fall short is my theory.

This means that we are all deserving death.

Being spit on should be a chance to show loving kindness to the person who spit on you.

That's the New Testament I know.

[lwdc]

This was the difference between Job and his friends that he could never make understand.

His friends never understood that Job himself knew that he was deserving of punishment.If Job himself believed he was deserving of punishment, then what was the difference in beliefs between Job and his friends? The fact is that Job didn't believe he deserved his tribulation (he certainly did not know why), and that is what made Job's beliefs different from his friends'.

You contradict yourself.

As usual.

Being spit on should be a chance to show loving kindness to the person who spit on you.While that is true, that doesn't mean that the spitter is in the right to spit on a Christian, yet you sympathize with the spitter:I feel sympathy for the Jews doing the spitting.You even advocate that the spitter perpetrate worse treatment against Christians, affirming that the spitter can do worse, which is "better":
I just sympathize very much with the Jews and if spitting is the worst thing that comes up it's pretty sad given what was done to them in the name of Christianity.

[Jacob_Rising]

If Job himself believed he was deserving of punishment, then what was the difference in beliefs between Job and his friends? The fact is that Job didn't believe he deserved his tribulation (he certainly did not know why), and that is what made Job's beliefs different from his friends'.

You contradict yourself.

As usual.

While that is true, that doesn't mean that the spitter is in the right to spit on a Christian, yet you sympathize with the spitter:You even advocate that the spitter perpetrate worse treatment against Christians, affirming that the spitter can do worse, which is "better":I certainly sympathized with the spitter, I sympathise more will the people who hate him because they couldn't understand why he did it in the first place.

What would you do in the days of Jesus walking as his desciple?

Lord knows how much I wished I had the chance to be stoned for my Belief in Yeshuah, Being spit on is at least something.

I don't advocate doing anything to anybody.

I do advocate that if somebody is mean to you that you should be very nice to them, do things for them, walk up and hand them 10 bucks and try and buy them lunch.

Disciples of Jesus walked to certain death knowing full well ahead of time that if they went certain places that they would die and that's exactly what they wanted and were very proud to do.

They died asking forgiveness for the people who killed them.



Job 9:1 Then Job answered and said: '' Truly I know it is so, But how can a man be rightous before God?

If one wished to contend with him, he could not answer him one time out of a thousand.''

Job knows that he is not the wicked, but he also knows enough to sacrifice for sins because of the fact that we all sin.

We all fall short of the Glory of God, It's a gift to be cleaned having faith in God's word that it will happen.

Job 42:5 But now my eyes sees you. Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Not everyone agrees with my view of Job, but it looks redundant to me.

[Jacob_Rising]

If Job himself believed he was deserving of punishment, then what was the difference in beliefs between Job and his friends? The difference is obvious, Job's friends would never realize their shame and guilt, we are all guilty.

Jobs friends thought that they weren't derserving of any chastisement, Like alot people, They think they had no sin, no guilt and they are fooled into believing themselves to be rightous.

Job knew he was more rightous than them, And he could never make them understand.

Nobody is rightous, as soon as people understand that, Life gets much easyer.

[lwdc]

I certainly sympathized with the spitter <snip>

I don't advocate doing anything to anybody.Maybe not. But you do sympathize with the people doing things, like spitting, to other people, especially if the perpetrator is Jewish and the target is Christian.

By your own words.

[lwdc]

The difference is obvious, Job's friends would never realize their shame and guilt, we are all guilty.

Jobs friends thought that they weren't derserving of any chastisement, Like alot people, They think they had no sin, no guilt and they are fooled into believing themselves to be rightous.

Job knew he was more rightous than them, And he could never make them understand.No.

Job didn't understand why he, as a righteous man, was being "punished".

There was no difference in opinion between Job and his friends that the unrighteous should suffer.

[lwdc]

Something people do not take into account is that preaching the gospel and missionary activity in Israel is illegal.Except when it is Judaism that is being preached. This doesn't make what is done to them justified yet I understand where many of the Jews are coming from. I do too, and you're absolutely right: it doesn't make the spitting, church-burning, bombing, etc., justified.

Israel may be somewhat "Democratic" yet at the end of the day it is a Jewish State.There's a good reason why you place the word "Democratic" in quotation marks. And I agree with you again: it is a Jewish state.

[Jacob_Rising]

Maybe not. But you do sympathize with the people doing things, like spitting, to other people, especially if the perpetrator is Jewish and the target is Christian.

By your own words.I think about how much Anti-Semitism and hate that this one event caused to so many people.

I don't understand the Christian who made such a bid deal about this.

It's a very bad thing.

I don't understand why Christians can't put themselves in the shoes of the Jews.

Millions of people suround Israel right now who say this prayer everyday: '' The Hour{reserection} will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them.

Christianity and Islam have taken turns treading their streets for two thousand years bringing Islmaic Law or Christian law where Judaizing is a crime punishable by death.

The entire world kicked the Jews out of their own lands and houses and properties while a third of them died from Genocide.

They are crammed in surrounded in this tiny piece of land and then have to be silent as always or not offended by seeing the people who oppressed them for so long.

It is a most terrible shame to them in their own land just to see people of other religions parading but they are still the most civil.

Just a mile away, Let the Christians walk a mile away from there and hold a Christian parade in Gaza and see what happens.

This area can't be compared to anywhere else on the Earth.

[LRC91]

Can someone translate the following line into Hebrew or whatever language they speak in Isreal for me?

"Please, I am a Christian but do not spit on me; I am not so forgiving as my weak bretheren."

It will be appreciated.

בבקשה, אני נוצרי אבל לא ירקו עליי, אני לא כל כך סלחני כמו האחים שלי חלש.

There you go Hebrew.:D:))

[Jacob_Rising]

No.

Job didn't understand why he, as a righteous man, was being "punished".

There was no difference in opinion between Job and his friends that the unrighteous should suffer.
Like I said, I've had people disagree with my view of Job, That's why the book is so redundant, The friends never understood, and there is no amount of talking that is going to make it understood.

I watch people all the time who walk around and never say a curse word, They never miss a Sunday school class, they never had sex without marrige. The walk out of their churches as if they are the most rightous in the world and don't even notice when they sin because they truly don't know what sin is, They don't know the law but should., They don't notice their meaness because they believe themselves to be rightous.

You can watch their eyes while they shop and see how they intereact with others and the sneers on their face, The lust sometimes.

They hear somebody say a curseword and they know for sure that person is headed to hell, They look at people with different beliefs and are sure those people are going to hell.

I always want to ask them why they are dying if they are so rightous.

[lwdc]

I think about how much Anti-Semitism and hate that this one event caused to so many people.Being indignant that you're spat upon isn't anti-semitism.

I don't understand the Christian who made such a bid deal about this.Maybe he got tired of Christians being spit upon in Jerusalem.

It's a very bad thing.

I don't understand why Christians can't put themselves in the shoes of the Jews.You bring up a good question. I'll ask my lawyer.

Millions of people suround Israel right now who say this prayer everyday: '' The Hour{reserection} will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them.

Christianity and Islam have taken turns treading their streets for two thousand years bringing Islmaic Law or Christian law where Judaizing is a crime punishable by death.Please don't imply that Christianity and Islam are interchangeable; they aren't.

They are crammed in surrounded in this tiny piece of land and then have to be silent as always or not offended by seeing the people who oppressed them for so long.I thought you'd visited Israel. Is that what you saw?

It is a most terrible shame to them in their own land just to see people of other religions parading but they are still the most civil.Spitting at people isn't "civil" behavior.

[lwdc]

Like I said, I've had people disagree with my view of Job, That's why the book is so redundant, The friends never understood, and there is no amount of talking that is going to make it understood.

I watch people all the time who walk around and never say a curse word, They never miss a Sunday school class, they never had sex without marrige. The walk out of their churches as if they are the most rightous in the world and don't even notice when they sin because they truly don't know what sin is, They don't know the law but should., They don't notice their meaness because they believe themselves to be rightous.

You can watch their eyes while they shop and see how they intereact with others and the sneers on their face, The lust sometimes.

They hear somebody say a curseword and they know for sure that person is headed to hell, They look at people with different beliefs and are sure those people are going to hell.

I always want to ask them why they are dying if they are so rightous.Yep. That sums up the book of Job all right.

[Jacob_Rising]

Being indignant that you're spat upon isn't anti-semitism.

Maybe he got tired of Christians being spit upon in Jerusalem.

You bring up a good question. I'll ask my lawyer.

Please don't imply that Christianity and Islam are interchangeable; they aren't.

I thought you'd visited Israel. Is that what you saw?

Spitting at people isn't "civil" behavior.My point has never been to show spitting as civil.

My point is from a Christian standpoint and only a Christian standpoint.

Turning the other cheek is either right or wrong in Christianity.

This Christian did not turn the other cheek, and no matter how little of a thing it started out to be, it has turned out to be a huge thing in Public which puts the Jews in a bad light.

Nobody can say that this christian's conplaint did not further the cause of Anti-Semism no matter what the original intent was.

It has caused Anti-Semitism, and I'm saying the Christian had no right in complaining, Because he's a Christian.

I wonder how he feels now since it made international News.

I'm glad it's not me.

[lwdc]

My point has never been to show spitting as civil.

My point is from a Christian standpoint and only a Christian standpoint.No.

You sympathized with the spitter, who is not Christian, and spoke from what you believed was his standpoint.

You contradict yourself.

As usual.

[Jacob_Rising]

I thought you'd visited Israel. Is that what you saw?

I have never been to Israel but My mother has been many times on different Christian based tours.

Every single one of these tours demanded the same respect out of Every Christian that came.

The respect for the Jews not to walk up to them and try and prosylitize them.

It's just not done and it's beyond rude, You might as well urinate on them.

[Jacob_Rising]

No.

You sympathized with the spitter, who is not Christian, and spoke from what you believed was his standpoint.

You contradict yourself.

As usual.
As a Christian, I know their history, I know what's going on right there right now and I very much sympathise with them.

I know what our Christian History has done against the Jews.

Maybe I did contradict myself as always, forgive me.

[lwdc]

I have never been to Israel but My mother has been many times on different Christian based tours.

Every single one of these tours demanded the same respect out of Every Christian that came.

The respect for the Jews not to walk up to them and try and prosylitize them.

It's just not done and it's beyond rudeDoes that quite jibe with your description of Israel here?:
They are crammed in surrounded in this tiny piece of land and then have to be silent as always or not offended by seeing the people who oppressed them for so long.

It is a most terrible shame to them in their own land just to see people of other religions paradingOr do you contradict yourself... again?

[lwdc]

Maybe I did contradict myself as always, forgive me.Surely. :hug:

[Jacob_Rising]

Yep. That sums up the book of Job all right.Yup.

I've allready given you scripture to that belief, - Job's reply to Bildad.

'' Truly I know it is so, But how can a man be rightous before God''

David was also more rightous than many around himself But he still knew his sins which were forever before his face.

And the truth of the matter at the end of Job.

Behold, I am Vile: What shall I answer you.

The rightous before God are never the proud and arrogant who see themselves as rightous.

EVER.

[lwdc]

The rightous before God are never the proud and arrogant who see themselves as rightous.

EVER.Then Pharisees are unrighteous--if you are to believe what the Nazarene said.

[Jacob_Rising]

Does that quite jibe with your description of Israel here?:
Or do you contradict yourself... again?I don't see a contradiction there Lwdc, But then I only made it through the 9th grade.


If every Christian is not deserving at least death then WHY?

There is no basis for Christianity in the least if Christians aren't deserving death.

You make the death of Jesus void, Then why did he die if we aren't deserving?

We want to tell the Jew that Jesus died for us, and then you want to say people aren't deserving to die.

Did Job go to heaven?

I'm sure he did, Why?

Why did God make Job pray for his friends?

Job was only rightous in the first place because he knew enough to sacrifice for his sins.

Why would he sacrifice if he didn't know that he sinned?

[Jacob_Rising]

Then Pharisees are unrighteous--if you are to believe what the Nazarene said.You sticking to that?

Humph

[RayMan]

Yup.

I've allready given you scripture to that belief, - Job's reply to Bildad.

'' Truly I know it is so, But how can a man be rightous before God''

David was also more rightous than many around himself But he still knew his sins which were forever before his face.

And the truth of the matter at the end of Job.

Behold, I am Vile: What shall I answer you.

The rightous before God are never the proud and arrogant who see themselves as rightous.

EVER.

Yep. Pretty much.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

[Jacob_Rising]

Then Pharisees are unrighteous--if you are to believe what the Nazarene said.You need to delte this Lwdc, It's first off not true.

But your caling every Pharasee arrogant and proud in a bad way.

Jesus was a Pharasee, If I remember correctly, either way, I don't remember him calling all Pharasees arrogant and proud.

Even if you could prove he did{You can't} it's still very insulting.

[Constantine the Great]

Read my post
Is the free exercise of religion not allowed in Israel?
Is the random spitting of a Jew on a Christian the proscribed penalty for offenses (real or preceived) by the State? I think the answer is no, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[BillyBobUSA]

I cant really blame Jews for spitting on Christians in Jerusalem.

I mean, we invite everybody else to spit on us, give our government over to secularist atheists and our culture over to hedonistic heathen and keep voting for politicians who lie to us every election making promises that they consistently break when they get into office.

We are such limp-wristic fools I'd feel like spitting on us too.

[lwdc]

I don't see a contradiction there Lwdc, But then I only made it through the 9th grade.


If every Christian is not deserving at least death then WHY?

There is no basis for Christianity in the least if Christians aren't deserving death.

You make the death of Jesus void, Then why did he die if we aren't deserving?

We want to tell the Jew that Jesus died for us, and then you want to say people aren't deserving to die.No.

You're not getting it.

JOB DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE WAS SUFFERING!

It has nothing to do with me. We're talking about the book of Job, not the tenets of Christianity here. Please stick to the point.

Job was only rightous in the first place because he knew enough to sacrifice for his sins.

Why would he sacrifice if he didn't know that he sinned?:wall:

Job's suffering was not because of any deliberate decision of his to make sacrifices for his sins. His suffering was brought upon him by forces beyond his control, and JOB DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHY!

[lwdc]

You need to delte this Lwdc, It's first off not true. <snip> Jesus was a PharaseeYou need to delete this Jacob_Rising. It's first off not true.

[lwdc]

But your caling every Pharasee arrogant and proud in a bad way.I never said such a thing. Your desperation shows.

The Pharisees whom the Nazarene said were unrighteous are those Pharisees whom the Nazarene said were unrighteous. Nobody said "every", so don't put words in my mouth, or Jesus' for that matter. Nicodemus was a Pharisee and so were other righteous leaders.

And, btw, Jesus was no Pharisee.

[Jacob_Rising]

I never said such a thing. Your desperation shows.

The Pharisees whom the Nazarene said were unrighteous are those Pharisees whom the Nazarene said were unrighteous. Nobody said "every", so don't put words in my mouth, or Jesus' for that matter. Nicodemus was a Pharisee and so were other righteous leaders.

And, btw, Jesus was no Pharisee.
I said Jesus was a Pharasee if I remember correctly in Jest.

I didn't think you would challenge this fact of life.

Christianity has given the Pharasees a bad rap, Jesus was not against Pharasees, He was one himself and he taught Theology only known to the Pharisaical tradition and law.

When Jesus had a problem with a particular Pharasee, it was like a Republican having a problem with another republican.

Not Only was he a Pharasee but he told the Multitudes that Only the Pharasees had the truth and the right as holders of the truth.

He told the Multitudes to do as the Pharasees say because it's only them, and them alone who sit in the seat of Moses and Jesus didn't say this about any other religous sect or religion on Earth.

Mathew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the multitudes and to his desciples, saying , '' The scribes{almost all Pharasees themselves} and the Pharasees SIT IN MOSES' SEAT.

''THEREFORE WHATEVER THEY TELL YOU TO OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO.''

Jesus is still a Pharasee, and the Pharasees still sit in the seat of Moses given authority by Yeshuah himself.

[Jacob_Rising]

Then Pharisees are unrighteous--if you are to believe what the Nazarene said.Your claim here is that Jesus said Pharasees are all arrogant and Proud.

Jesus never said any such thing but we know that you believe in Jesus and you believe he called them all Arrogant and proud, thus you say,'' Then Pharasees are unrightous IF you believe what Jesus said''

So you must think all Pharasees unrightous, because you mistakenly believe Jesus thought that.

You concluded that all Pharasees are unrightous,'' Then Pharasees are unrightous''

[lwdc]

Jesus was not against Pharasees, He was one himself and he taught Theology only known to the Pharisaical tradition and law.<snip>Jesus is still a Pharasee, and the Pharasees still sit in the seat of Moses given authority by Yeshuah himself.What religion are you again?

[lwdc]

Your claim here is that Jesus said Pharasees are all arrogant and Proud.

Jesus never said any such thing but we know that you believe in Jesus and you believe he called them all Arrogant and proud, thus you say,'' Then Pharasees are unrightous IF you believe what Jesus said''

So you must think all Pharasees unrightous, because you mistakenly believe Jesus thought that.

You concluded that all Pharasees are unrightous,'' Then Pharasees are unrightous''No.

I concluded that Pharisees whom Jesus excoriated were deemed by Jesus to be unrighteous, and you would too if you believe what He said.

[Jacob_Rising]

No.

I concluded that Pharisees whom Jesus excoriated were deemed by Jesus to be unrighteous, and you would too if you believe what He said.No Lwdc, You didn't say the Pharasees that Jesus disagreed with, or some Pharasees, You said, '' Then Pharasees are unrightous putting them all in the same boat and Jesus just did not say this. There were many Pharasees that he never had a problem with, he went to Pharasees houses to eat with them, He even went to a scribes house where the scribe agreed with him about his beliefs.

He taught theology only known to the school of Hillel, and concepts that were only believed by Pharasees.

Philipians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; Concerning the Law, a PHARASEE.

This was Paul.

Jesus

Luke 14:1 Now it happened, as he went to the house of one of the rulers of the Pharasees to eat bread on the Sabbath.

John 19:39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came bringing a mixture of Myrrh and aloes.... Then he took the Body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of Linen with spices, as the customs of the Jews is to bury.{ a Pharasee burying a Pharasee}

The council at Jerusalem.

Acts 15:5 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were recieved by the church, apostles and elders.......'' But some of the sect of Pharasees who BELIEVED rose up saying.....

Jesus was Born and lived, and buried as a Pharasee, and there is overwhelming evidence to this fact in many, many scriptures.

[Jacob_Rising]

What religion are you again?My debate is that Jesus was a Pharasee, so was Paul, so were the desciples as far as I know.

Jesus only gave his acceptance to only one sect of Judaism, and told his followers to do what the sect of Pharasees said because they alone sit in Moses' seat.

My beforehand apologies to the Jews for claiming myself to be in Judaism, and my apologies to the Jews for claiming I'm any part of the Pharasees, but I do believe the Pharasee is the one true authoritative sect of the religion of the God of Israel.

Christians were named the Nazerines trying to seperate Christians from the Pharasees.

And we have Jewish records, Roman records and church records where all of the above wanted to seperate the Christian sect of Judaism from the synogogues of the Jews.

The facts are there though, Christians went to temple along with the Jews and after the temple was burned, the so called Nazerines went to synogogue with the Jews for over 100 years after Jesus died.

I believe in Pharasaical Judaism, allthough I am more than aware that I'm not accepted by any Jews, and I know they don't believe I'm any part of Judaism whatsoever.

Again, My apologies to the Jews, But I do believe in Judaism and I believe I am a part of Judaism as was Jesus and most all of Christianity for over 100 years.

Jesus told us to do as the Pharasee say, and to observe what the Pharsees say to observe, Under that flag, I'm a Noahide gentile that believes in the authority of the Pharasees.

[lwdc]

Nobody said "every", so don't put words in my mouth, or Jesus' for that matter. Nicodemus was a Pharisee and so were other righteous leaders.^See what I said, J_R?

Learn how to read.

While you're at it, learn how to write.

[lwdc]

My debate is that Jesus was a Pharasee, so was Paul, so were the desciples as far as I know.None of them were Pharisees, as far as I know, except for Paul before he quit his day job.

Speaking of Paul, and of righteousness:
As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one
- Romans 3:10

Add that to the long list of problems you have with the Apostle.

[Jacob_Rising]

^See what I said, J_R?

Learn how to read.

While you're at it, learn how to write.No Lwdc, You said that after the fact of saying, '' Then Pharisees are unrightous if you believe what the Nazerine said.''

Then you came along and tried to pick and choose when I only wanted you to delete what you said in the first place.

You made no stipulations between Pharasees, you simply said, '' Then Pharasees are unrightous''

I do know how to read Lwdc, I saw what you said and it's very insulting to me, and I'm sure to Jews in this forum who are Pharasees.

Your wrong when you imply that Jesus said they were all arrogant and all proud.

Your wrong when you implied '' Then Pharasees''

Jesus didn't insinuate anything close to what you are implying but even if he did, it's still very insulting to say what you said in front of the Jews in this forum.

I would think that you would not want to insult them and you would change what you said to begin with out of Generousity, but now you are trying to rationalize not saying what you indeed said.

Maybe I'm wrong about the rules in this forum, Maybe I can't read.

I'll leave it up to the moderators, I'm through with the subject.

[Jacob_Rising]

Let it be Noted that we were talking about Job, The proud and the arrogant which has nothing to do with Pharasees, and there was no other reason for Lwdc to interject them into the conversation other than his belief that all Pharasees are Proud and Arrogant.

Why in the world would you throw the Pharasees into the conversation in the first place without having Pre-meditative thoughts about them being THE Proud and Arrogant.

[Jacob_Rising]

None of them were Pharisees, as far as I know, except for Paul before he quit his day job.

Speaking of Paul, and of righteousness:


Add that to the long list of problems you have with the Apostle.
Here is yet another time where you strive to prove that Jesus did not have the correct qualification or need for a Messiah, was not a Rabbi and didn't have the qualifications for a Rabbi Messiah, and had no authority under any known sect of Judaism to recite the Torah Portions as a Priest within Judaism.

Luke 4:16 So he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And his custom was, He went into the Synogogue on the Sabbath day, and stood and read.

And he was HANDED the book of the Prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: The spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he has annointed me to preach the Gospel to the poor.

This was the Torah portion which cycle begins and ends on Simchat Torah.

This Torah portion was only read by the Rabbis from the 24 districts, and unless you are a Rabbi, Your not going to stand up and read the Torah Portions.

This scripture is read on the same day every year and this particular Torah Portion fell to the Rabbi in that Synogogue under Rabbi law under one of the sects of Judaism.

So if you can't prove that Jesus was a Rabbi under the Pharasees, or Sadducees, or Essenes or one of the sects of Judaism, Then he has no authority as a Priest in Judaism and wouldn't be able to read the Torah portion handed to him.

So he was not a Rabbi and couldn't have possibly been the Messiah unless he was a Rabbi.

So what sect of Judaism was Jesus in?

Was he a Rabbi or wasn't he?

If he wasn't then why on Earth would you believe in him?

[lwdc]

No Lwdc, You said that after the fact of saying, '' Then Pharisees are unrightous if you believe what the Nazerine said.''

Then you came along and tried to pick and choose when I only wanted you to delete what you said in the first place.

You made no stipulations between Pharasees, you simply said, '' Then Pharasees are unrightous''No. I said that Jesus said it. Read it again.

I do know how to read Apparently, you don't.
I saw what you said and it's very insulting to me, and I'm sure to Jews in this forum who are Pharasees.No. They know that the Nazarene spoke critically about Pharisees.

Your wrong when you imply that Jesus said they were all arrogant and all proud.

Your wrong when you implied '' Then Pharasees''

Jesus didn't insinuate anything close to what you are implyingHe didn't? Is that so?

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES!"
- Matthew 23:13
- Matthew 23:14
- Matthew 23:15
- Matthew 23:23
- Matthew 23:25
- Matthew 23:27
- Luke 11:44

You need to learn to read.

but even if he did, it's still very insulting to say what you said in front of the Jews in this forum.

I would think that you would not want to insult them and you would change what you said to begin with out of Generousity, but now you are trying to rationalize not saying what you indeed said.It is the words of the Nazarene that were insulting to the Pharisees, not mine. This isn't news to anyone in this forum...

Except you.

Maybe I'm wrong about the rules in this forum, Maybe I can't read.Quite so.

I'll leave it up to the moderators, I'm through with the subject.They have ruled.


I'm hurt J_R. I try giving you a hug last night...
Surely. :hug:...and this is how you respond.

[lwdc]

Here is yet another time where you strive to prove that Jesus did not have the correct qualification or need for a Messiah, was not a Rabbi and didn't have the qualifications for a Rabbi Messiah, and had no authority under any known sect of Judaism to recite the Torah Portions as a Priest within Judaism.Jesus was a rabbi to the extent that He was a teacher. To Christians, He is the Messiah.

Under no condition was He a Pharisee.

Luke 4:16 So he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And his custom was, He went into the Synogogue on the Sabbath day, and stood and read.

And he was HANDED the book of the Prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: The spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he has annointed me to preach the Gospel to the poor.

This was the Torah portion which cycle begins and ends on Simchat Torah.

This Torah portion was only read by the Rabbis from the 24 districts, and unless you are a Rabbi, Your not going to stand up and read the Torah Portions.

This scripture is read on the same day every year and this particular Torah Portion fell to the Rabbi in that Synogogue under Rabbi law under one of the sects of Judaism.

So if you can't prove that Jesus was a Rabbi under the Pharasees, or Sadducees, or Essenes or one of the sects of Judaism, Then he has no authority as a Priest in Judaism and wouldn't be able to read the Torah portion handed to him.Moments after He read the Isaiah scroll, members of the synagogue drove Him out of town and tried to throw Him over a cliff.

So he was not a Rabbi and couldn't have possibly been the Messiah unless he was a Rabbi.

So what sect of Judaism was Jesus in?

Was he a Rabbi or wasn't he?

If he wasn't then why on Earth would you believe in him?He was a rabbi to the extent that He was a teacher. To Christians, He is the Messiah.

Under no condition was He a Pharisee.

[Jacob_Rising]

No. I said that Jesus said it. Read it again.

Apparently, you don't.
No. They know that the Nazarene spoke critically about Pharisees.

He didn't? Is that so?


- Matthew 23:13
- Matthew 23:14
- Matthew 23:15
- Matthew 23:23
- Matthew 23:25
- Matthew 23:27
- Luke 11:44

You need to learn to read.

It is the words of the Nazarene that were insulting to the Pharisees, not mine. This isn't news to anyone in this forum...

Except you.

Quite so.

They have ruled.


I'm hurt J_R. I try giving you a hug last night...
...and this is how you respond.


I didn't see you try and give me a hug last night?

I didn't know what FireWatch meant when he said the word,'' Qualifier''

I suppose he meant the word,'' If'' as qualifying as your way out of being not insulting.

But whatever they say is cool with me.

I didn't know whether Fw was talking about me putting the link in there qualifying for a thread in the Moderator forum, I can't click on links cause my computer freezes.

After Jesus is dead and Gone, Here is what Paul calls himself,

Philippians 3: 5 '' A Hebrew of Hebrews: concerning the law, A PHARASEE!

WHY IS PAUL STILL CLAIMING TO BE SOMETHING YOU SAY JESUS SAYS IS ALL BAD?

AGAIN, When Jesus was speaking in Mathew, It was no different than a Republican standing up and pointing at the Republicans and democrats in power and in Congress.

This doesn't mean that every Republican is bad or every democrat is bad , and it doesn't mean every Pharasee is bad.

You say that Jesus was kicked out or hated by some of the Pharasees, But that doesn't mean Jesus didn't consider himself to be a true Pharasee.

He was a Pharasee, Paul was a Pharasee and that's a fact, he tells you so.

Why would he claim to be a Pharasee if he wasn't, and if a Pharasee was a bad thing, then why would he continue to be a Pharasee for the rest of his life?

I am well aware that I am most likely the only one in here with this view of what Jesus said in Mathew, People still aren't taking into consideration what was actually happening, he was still a Pharasee.

[Jacob_Rising]

Paul, a self admitted Pharasee at the council in the book of Acts with his fellow believing Pharasees.

Acts 15:5 '' But some of the sect of the Pharasees WHO BELIEVED rose up and said, '' It is necassary to circumcize them, and command them to keep the law of Moses''

These were Paul's own people in his own sect of Pharasee believers who were all zealous in keeping the law of Moses.

Paul disagreed with his own fellow believers in his own sect that gentiles had to be circumcised.

Paul was told that Myriads of Jews were believers and every single one was zealous for the Torah.

They were zealous still among their own sect of Judaism, in fulfilling the law.

Why would Paul be a different sect of Judaism than Jesus?

Who was right if both were not the same?

Both were Pharasees.

[nofear2]

There's a good reason why you place the word "Democratic" in quotation marks. And I agree with you again: it is a Jewish state.

For this reason it is imperative that the Christians in Israel do what they can to respect the Jewish faith and NOT try to stray Jews from their path. For if they try what can and will result is anger of this sort.
Remember, Israel is a JEWISH state. So long as that is respected the followers of the Christian faith are to be under the protection of the Government and Jewish Law.

[nofear2]

For those who are not aware, the term Rabbi is attributed strictly to a leader amongst the Pharisees.

[Jacob_Rising]

For those who are not aware, the term Rabbi is attributed strictly to a leader amongst the Pharisees.Jesus was called Rabbi all over the New testament, and alot of things he did and believed were Pharasaical.

Christian's claim is that he was a Rabbi who did read Torah Portions.

He could not have been a Saducee because of resurection beliefs.

He could not have been an Essene because he told slaves to honour their masters and essenes don't believe in slavery.

He was a Pharasee speaking to Pharasees, I don't believe for a second they he called all Pharasees bad, because it would be a contradiction against him.


I believe Pharasee hatred is engrained in Christianity because of what he said, But I still don't think people take into account all the circumstances.

He was a Pharasee speaking to Pharasees.

Like a republican speaking to a Republican.

Whether Jesus was right or wrong or whether he even lived or not.

It is still a story about a Pharasee.

[Jacob_Rising]

For this reason it is imperative that the Christians in Israel do what they can to respect the Jewish faith and NOT try to stray Jews from their path. For if they try what can and will result is anger of this sort.
Remember, Israel is a JEWISH state. So long as that is respected the followers of the Christian faith are to be under the protection of the Government and Jewish Law.Would you consider what they were doing was breaking Jewish Law?

Can you be arrested under Jewish law if you go out and try to convert people?

See that would be a contradiction to most Christians{not me}

Christian law is to go out and proclaim, and to convert.

But if this is against the laws of a civil democratic state, It's also breaking the law, which Christians are demanded not to do.

I would think these Christians were breaking the laws of the Jewish state by what they were doing, but that's just me.

I'm sure a lot of Jews would disagree with me even for that.

[lwdc]

When they [the Pharisees] saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they [Peter and John] were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. "What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."

Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.Acts 4:13-18

[Jacob_Rising]

Acts 4:13-18I don't get your point, I'll have to continue tomorrow.

[Jacob_Rising]

John 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, '' What do you seek?'' They said to him, '' Rabbi''

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming torward him, and said of him,
'' Behold, an ISRAELITE indeed, in whom is no guile!'' Nathenael said to him, How do you know me?'' Jesus answered and said, '' Before Phillip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you''
Nathanael answered and said, '' Rabbi''.

John 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, '' Rabbi''

So If Mike is right then all we have established is a contradiction in the New Testament. Rabbis and scholars are called Teacher or Rabbi. How do we know he wasn't part of the Sahendrin, I don't think he was, but I'm certainly not sure?

If it does contradict then I'm glad somebody has pointed it out, But it reaffirms Jesus being a Pharasee nonetheless.

Jesus was like 30 years old before he said anything, and we know that he was a Priest or Rabbi who did read the Torah Portions .

There are only so many sects you can be from in order to be a Priest or Rabbi in my understanding, but I'm still trying to figure this out.

It's a slow process trying to figure out Jewish culture when you know nothing about it.

[lwdc]

I don't get your point, I'll have to continue tomorrow.I was afraid you wouldn't get the point, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Since I overestimated your reading comprehension, let me spell it out for you.

In your post immediately before mine, you said:
Would you consider what they were doing was breaking Jewish Law?

Can you be arrested under Jewish law if you go out and try to convert people?

I responded by citing a biblical passage in which the Sanhedrin commanded the Apostles not to speak and not to teach in the name of Jesus. In other words, while on the topic of Jewish law, this has been a firm commandment of the Jewish high court for two thousand years. It is not a response, as you have incorrectly maintained, to more recent events. Peter and John were jailed for speaking out in the name of Jesus.

I even bolded and underlined the relevant words so that you would see them, but apparently you did not.

In another thread of yours, you include something about "blindness" in the thread title.

[lwdc]

So If Mike is right then all we have established is a contradiction in the New Testament.Another possibility is that you're incorrect, and that no such "contradiction" exists in the NT, as much as you would love for this contradiction to exist. Rabbis and scholars are called Teacher or Rabbi. How do we know he wasn't part of the Sahendrin, I don't think he was, but I'm certainly not sure?I'm not 100% sure either, but all the evidence indicates that Jesus was no Pharisee.
If it does contradict then I'm glad somebody has pointed it outOf course you are, and it shows.
But it reaffirms Jesus being a Pharasee nonetheless.It neither affirms nor reaffirms any such thing. It is a ridiculous stretch in interpretation and a severe departure from the import of the New Testament.

[Jacob_Rising]

Another possibility is that you're incorrect, and that no such "contradiction" exists in the NT, as much as you would love for this contradiction to exist. I'm not 100% sure either, but all the evidence indicates that Jesus was no Pharisee.
Of course you are, and it shows.
It neither affirms nor reaffirms any such thing. It is a ridiculous stretch in interpretation and a severe departure from the import of the New Testament.I don't ever want a contradiction to exist in the New Testament whatsoever but when I find them, At least I'm willing to look at it even if it goes against my religion.

What your claiming is that Jesus was never a Priest.

I don't understand why you don't see the problem.

Was he, or was he not a Priest who officiated in the duties of a Priest.

Your debate is to prove that he was never a Priest and you talk to me like I want a Contradiction.

You keep contradicting Jesus, I don't.

If he was not a Priest then we have a big problem that you refuse to admit.

[Jacob_Rising]

I was afraid you wouldn't get the point, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Since I overestimated your reading comprehension, let me spell it out for you.

In your post immediately before mine, you said:


I responded by citing a biblical passage in which the Sanhedrin commanded the Apostles not to speak and not to teach in the name of Jesus. In other words, while on the topic of Jewish law, this has been a firm commandment of the Jewish high court for two thousand years. It is not a response, as you have incorrectly maintained, to more recent events. Peter and John were jailed for speaking out in the name of Jesus.

I even bolded and underlined the relevant words so that you would see them, but apparently you did not.

In another thread of yours, you include something about "blindness" in the thread title.There is no compareing Jewish law then, to Jewish law today.

After all the crusades where so many Jews had to die while being forced into accepting Christianity, and after the Holocaust, There is no compareing what was going on there in Jerusalem then to what was going on today.

It's rude to prosylitze the Jews in their own land because it has been so heinous and so tradgic after what we did to them in this manner that you cannot compare the two at all.

For one, It was Roman law at the time of Jesus, and today it's Jewish law, so your belief is wrong concerning a 2000 year old law in my opinion, where would the law be enforced before Israel became a nation?

Either way, we are told by Jesus to obey the Pharasees and to observe what they tell us to observe, but not to do as they do.

Christians are also demanded to follow the laws of the land, and if this parade is going agianst Jewish law, then there is another problem.

[Jacob_Rising]

I was afraid you wouldn't get the point, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Since I overestimated your reading comprehension, let me spell it out for you.

In your post immediately before mine, you said:


I responded by citing a biblical passage in which the Sanhedrin commanded the Apostles not to speak and not to teach in the name of Jesus. In other words, while on the topic of Jewish law, this has been a firm commandment of the Jewish high court for two thousand years. It is not a response, as you have incorrectly maintained, to more recent events. Peter and John were jailed for speaking out in the name of Jesus.

I even bolded and underlined the relevant words so that you would see them, but apparently you did not.

In another thread of yours, you include something about "blindness" in the thread title.Why are you getting so upset Lwdc, I don't see why you have to get all worked up and start insulting me because I'm slow, I know I'm not the brightest person in the world.

You don't have to hate me and insult me for it.

I'm sure I probably deserve it, I probably got drunk one night and insulted you sometime in the past but I don't remember.

I apologize for whatever it was, I realize I do irritate people at times, and sometimes I should be more considerate of others feelings.

But I'm not trying to wage war with you, I just want to seek out the truth whatever the truth maybe.

[Jacob_Rising]

but all the evidence indicates that Jesus was no Pharisee.
The evidence is overwhelming that Jesus was a Pharasee or at least that there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament paints him as a Pharasee, he could be nothing else.

I can post 3 pages of scripture showing Jesus to be a Pharasee without a doubt but I don't think you will believe it no matter what I post.

If I spend two hours on posting this overwhelming eveidence, would anything sway your opinion?

I know that I can prove to any Jewish Orthodx person that the New Testament painted Jesus as a Pharasee, and this is without a doubt.

If he was a Priest, he had to be a Pharasee because his beliefs only lined up with Pharasees and nobody else.

In order for him to be a Priest, he had to be a member of one of the few sects of Judaism and that's all there is to it.

In order for him to have read the Torah portions in his synogogue, he had to be a priest, and he was officiating under one of the sects of Judaism.

Tell me what to say, what's the answer? I'm up for options.

I'm fine if you don't want to believe Jesus was a Pharasee, that's all well and good.

But please tell me what sect of Judaism he was in when he was officating as a Priest in his own synogogue.

I've been wrong before, But the evidence points to him being a Pharasee.

I know for sure that he wasn't a saducee and I'm pretty sure he wasn't and essene, so you tell me what you think but he had to be in one of the sects of Judaism, unless of course you think that he didn't practice Judaism.

In that case, He has no qualifications in my opinion because he could not have fulfilled the law.

[lwdc]

I don't ever want a contradiction to exist in the New Testament whatsoeverIs that why you said this?:If it does contradict then I'm glad somebody has pointed it out.

Moving right along...
but when I find them, At least I'm willing to look at it even if it goes against my religion.What religion would that be?

What your claiming is that Jesus was never a Priest.NO!

I am claiming He was not a Pharisee!

I don't understand why you don't see the problem.What's the title of that recent thread of yours?

Was he, or was he not a Priest who officiated in the duties of a Priest.For the Christian, He is a High Priest and King. He is not a Pharisee.

Your debate is to prove that he was never a Priest and you talk to me like I want a Contradiction.You're desperate. You're desperately trying to change this debate. This debate was never whether Jesus was a Priest. The debate has always been whether He was a Pharisee.

You keep contradicting Jesus, I don't.:))

If he was not a Priest then we have a big problem that you refuse to admit.Read this, J_R, and read it carefully: He is a Priest, He is not a Pharisee.

[lwdc]

There is no compareing Jewish law then, to Jewish law today.How's this for a comparison: it was forbidden by the Jewish high court two thousand to speak and teach in the name Jesus (Acts 4:13-18), and it is forbidden today.

[lwdc]

Why are you getting so upset Lwdc, I don't see why you have to get all worked up and start insulting me because I'm slow, I know I'm not the brightest person in the world.

You don't have to hate me and insult me for it.

I'm sure I probably deserve it, I probably got drunk one night and insulted you sometime in the past but I don't remember.

I apologize for whatever it was, I realize I do irritate people at times, and sometimes I should be more considerate of others feelings.

But I'm not trying to wage war with you, I just want to seek out the truth whatever the truth maybe.Then get it straight that I said Jesus was not a Pharisee. I never said He wasn't a Priest.

When you stop putting words in my mouth, we'll be square.

[Jacob_Rising]

Is that why you said this?:

Moving right along...
What religion would that be?

NO!

I am claiming He was not a Pharisee!

What's the title of that recent thread of yours?

For the Christian, He is a High Priest and King. He is not a Pharisee.

You're desperate. You're desperately trying to change this debate. This debate was never whether Jesus was a Priest. The debate has always been whether He was a Pharisee.

:))

Read this, J_R, and read it carefully: He is a Priest, He is not a Pharisee.I don't wanna see the New testament contradicted and that's the truth.

I'm not desperate about anything.

I know that the Testament says that he officiated as a Priest and I've clearly shown where he was called a Rabbi and Nofear says that Rabbis only refer to ruler of Pharasees.

I don't believe it makes any difference whether he was a Priest or a Rabbi, He was in fact a member of one of the sects of Judaism or he would not have been reading Torah portions.

You keep saying I'm blind but you are not willing to show where.

The truth is what it is, You hate pharasees from everything I've seen you post.

PAUL IS A SELF ADMITTED PHARASEE, Why do you think Paul would admit such a thing?

You keep saying Nazerine but the Christians sect of Judaism was only called Nazerines after Jesus died.

Jesus was a member of one of the sects of Judaism and for you to claim anything else is crazy.

Christianity was a part of Judaism for over 100 years attending synogogues right along with the Jews.

I guess it doesn't matter, Your not going to accept that Jesus was a part of any sect of Judaism are you?

For that matter, It must be rather uncomfortable to even think that Christianity was a sect of Judaism but it's a fact.

You keep mentioning that New thread I started insinuating that I'm blind.

That thread was about foriegn policy and all those who hate Israel and the Jews.

I think I see where you stand on the issue.

[Jacob_Rising]

How's this for a comparison: it was forbidden by the Jewish high court two thousand to speak and teach in the name Jesus (Acts 4:13-18), and it is forbidden today.Well after a few million are killed because they wouldn't convert to Judaism, You would think that people would see the Jews in a different light now.

[Jacob_Rising]

Maybe Jesus wasn't a Pharisee, I'm just trying to figure out what sect of Judaism he was raised in and I only know of Pharisees, Zealots, Saducees, and Essenes.

I just know he was closer to the Pharisee, But in light of Hebrews saying he was of the order of Melchezedek, I can bend on this.

But he was still raised in one of these sects unless there is another sect I don't know about.

[nofear2]

Maybe Jesus wasn't a Pharisee, I'm just trying to figure out what sect of Judaism he was raised in and I only know of Pharisees, Zealots, Saducees, and Essenes.

I just know he was closer to the Pharisee, But in light of Hebrews saying he was of the order of Melchezedek, I can bend on this.

But he was still raised in one of these sects unless there is another sect I don't know about.

Not to butt in but if Jesus had the Title "Rabbi" as described in the NT then he could have ONLY followed the tradition of the Pharisees.

[nofear2]

Would you consider what they were doing was breaking Jewish Law?

Can you be arrested under Jewish law if you go out and try to convert people?

See that would be a contradiction to most Christians{not me}

Christian law is to go out and proclaim, and to convert.

But if this is against the laws of a civil democratic state, It's also breaking the law, which Christians are demanded not to do.

I would think these Christians were breaking the laws of the Jewish state by what they were doing, but that's just me.

I'm sure a lot of Jews would disagree with me even for that.

Had they wanted to serve Jesus in their own Church without being bothered and without bothering they would have been allowed to and are allowed to. Under the Jewish Law they can be considered to be followers of one G-d and being so they are to be given equal right - unless of course they look to forfeit their rights by trying to sway a Jew.
After this happens it is the job of the court to administer justice, not for the individual to do what he feels is right.

[Mimiheart]

Not to butt in but if Jesus had the Title "Rabbi" as described in the NT then he could have ONLY followed the tradition of the Pharisees.
Pharisee, for some Christians, has taken on the status of "bad". I think they think that calling Jesus a Pharisee is an insult. It really isn't. In this case, it's just a description.

[nofear2]

Pharisee, for some Christians, has taken on the status of "bad". I think they think that calling Jesus a Pharisee is an insult. It really isn't. In this case, it's just a description.

I'm forgetting - the majority of people in this world are ignorant.

LW,
What is a Pharisee?

[Jacob_Rising]

Not to butt in but if Jesus had the Title "Rabbi" as described in the NT then he could have ONLY followed the tradition of the Pharisees.Well thanks for that, I don't know if it's a contradiction in the New Testament, or if he really was a Rabbi.

I just know he was called a Rabbi, I know the New Testament says he was a Priest and I figure he had to be in one of the sects of Judaism to attain one of these titles.

I wished I would have never started the argument in the first place though.

It's offensive to the Jew and the Christian.

I guess it's a bad topic but nonetheless I'm interested in what sect of Judaism Jesus was raised in.

Everything I've read tells me he was a Pharasee.

[Mimiheart]

Well thanks for that, I don't know if it's a contradiction in the New Testament, or if he really was a Rabbi.

I just know he was called a Rabbi, I know the New Testament says he was a Priest and I figure he had to be in one of the sects of Judaism to attain one of these titles.

I wished I would have never started the argument in the first place though.

It's offensive to the Jew and the Christian.

I guess it's a bad topic but nonetheless I'm interested in what sect of Judaism Jesus was raised in.

Everything I've read tells me he was a Pharasee.Well, if he was a priest then there's a whole other issue with him being the Messiah. Priests are Cohens... which is a different line than that of David.

[Jacob_Rising]

Pharisee, for some Christians, has taken on the status of "bad". I think they think that calling Jesus a Pharisee is an insult. It really isn't. In this case, it's just a description.
It's exactly what alot of Christians believe and it's why the argument started.

It's obvious from this thread some some Christians think Pharaisees are all bad.

There must have been what ? A million Pharisees and you can't find one of them that's not proud and arrogant?

We have many examples of Jews in the New testament that were completely humble and contrite who's sins were before their faces like David said..

[Jacob_Rising]

Well, if he was a priest then there's a whole other issue with him being the Messiah. Priests are Cohens... which is a different line than that of David.Yeah, I understand that issue also and I know where we go into different paths because our different reading we have between our bible about a Prophecy in Zechariah.

In the Christian bible, It says that he will be a Priest upon his thrown and peace will be between the two.

But in the Jewish bible it doesn't mean the same thing.

[lwdc]

Well after a few million are killed because they wouldn't convert to Judaism, You would think that people would see the Jews in a different light now.It was forbidden before even one was killed for not converting! Acts 4:13-18! Even St. Stephen was not stoned (by Pharisees, including Saul of Tarsus) yet!

You're not reading!

:rolleyes:

[lwdc]

Pharisee, for some Christians, has taken on the status of "bad". I think they think that calling Jesus a Pharisee is an insult. It really isn't. In this case, it's just a description.It has NOTHING to do with insulting connotations.

Jesus was not, using the word as a descriptor, a Pharisee.

Pharisees say that Jesus was not a Pharisee. And they get to decide, not J_R.

[lwdc]

I'm forgetting - the majority of people in this world are ignorant.

LW,
What is a Pharisee?I defer to actual Pharisees to describe what they are. I do not presume to know better than they.

What I do know is what they know about this: Jesus wasn't one.

[lwdc]

It's offensive to the Jew and the Christian.It is especially offensive to Jews, more so than to Christians, for you to say that Jesus followed the ways of the Pharisees.

[Jacob_Rising]

It was forbidden before even one was killed for not converting! Acts 4:13-18! Even St. Stephen was not stoned (by Pharisees, including Saul of Tarsus) yet!

You're not reading!

:rolleyes:YOUR NOT READING!

It is demanded that the Christians follow the laws of the land.

In Jesus day it was Roman law that ruled.

The nation of Israel is now under Jewish law and that is the law of the land, we should follow the law should we not?

[Jacob_Rising]

The question should be--

If the New Testament calls Jesus Rabbi, and we can see Jesus clearly reading from Torah portions in the synogogue, Then what does this mean?

I'm thinking he had to be in a known sect of Judaism at the time or how else is he going to read Torah Portions?

[lwdc]

YOUR NOT READING!

It is demanded that the Christians follow the laws of the land.

In Jesus day it was Roman law that ruled.

The nation of Israel is now under Jewish law and that is the law of the land, we should follow the law should we not?J_R, do me a favor.

Go get your Bible out of the closet in your attic.

Dust it off.

Open it.

Go to the Book of Acts. It's the one after John, and before Romans.

Go to Chapter 4. It's one after Chapter 3.

Read Chapter 4.

Read how the Sanhedrin forbid the Apostles from speaking and teaching in Jesus' name. This was the law. This was the law of the Jewish High Court then, as it is the law now.

[Jacob_Rising]

J_R, do me a favor.

Go get your Bible out of the closet in your attic.

Dust it off.

Open it.

Go to the Book of Acts. It's the one after John, and before Romans.

Go to Chapter 4. It's one after Chapter 3.

Read Chapter 4.

Read how the Sanhedrin forbid the Apostles from speaking and teaching in Jesus' name. This was the law. This was the law of the Jewish High Court then, as it is the law now.
Lwdc, Do me a favor and go get your history books out and see how many Jews died from Christian and Muslim Crusades from people trying to convert them.

In Jesus day, Christians were not forcing conversions on anyone.

These people suffered an immeasuable amount of Horrors because Christians just wanted to convert them so's they could go to heaven.

Have you no shame whatsoever?

[lwdc]

Lwdc, Do me a favor and go get your history books out and see how many Jews died from Christian and Muslim Crusades from people trying to convert them.

In Jesus day, Christians were not forcing conversions on anyone.

These people suffered an immeasuable amount of Horrors because Christians just wanted to convert them so's they could go to heaven.

Have you no shame whatsoever?None of that has anything to do with the decree of the Sanhedrin chronicled in Acts 4. The ruling of the Jewish High Court was the same back then as it is today, regardless of what has happened in the intervening two thousand years, during which time the law has not changed.

You're drowning, and it's pathetic to watch.

[Jacob_Rising]

None of that has anything to do with the decree of the Sanhedrin chronicled in Acts 4. The ruling of the Jewish High Court was the same back then as it is today, regardless of what has happened in the intervening two thousand years, during which time the law has not changed.

You're drowning, and it's pathetic to watch.Drowning sensations I do not get on the wide world web even when I'm wrong{I'm not wrong}.

You act as if this conversation means something when it doesn't.

I walk on eggshells around these Jews because how could I seriously look any of them in the eye sayiong,'' Jesus is the Messiah''

Here we are discussing some Christians who got their feelings hurt because they were spit on.

I know these Jews in here don't hold me to blame for my Christian history but what am I supposed to convince them of?

'' Christianity is a religion of love about a true self sacrificing servant''

'' Christianity is about loving your neighbor''

They would look at me and lagh because of our history.

Disciples of Jesus went places knowing they would get hurt for their proclaiming Jesus.

When they were stoned to death they were saying,'' Father forgive them''

These Christians in Israel are completely opposite, They wont even suffer their shirts getting wet before they start screaming.

Is that what you want to compare preaching the gospel in this day to preaching the gospel in Jesus day?

[lwdc]

I walk on eggshells around these Jews because how could I seriously look any of them in the eye sayiong,'' Jesus is the Messiah''How could you seriously look any of them in the eye and say, "Jesus was a Pharisee", let alone a member of the Sanhedrin? If you're trying not to offend Jews, that's not the way to do it.

Here we are discussing some Christians who got their feelings hurt because they were spit on.

I know these Jews in here don't hold me to blame for my Christian history but what am I supposed to convince them of?

'' Christianity is a religion of love about a true self sacrificing servant''

'' Christianity is about loving your neighbor''

They would look at me and lagh because of our history.No.

They would look at you and laugh because of the Nazarene's words and behavior toward the Jewish leaders of His day.

Disciples of Jesus went places knowing they would get hurt for their proclaiming Jesus.

When they were stoned to death they were saying,'' Father forgive them''

These Christians in Israel are completely opposite, They wont even suffer their shirts getting wet before they start screaming.

Is that what you want to compare preaching the gospel in this day to preaching the gospel in Jesus day?Preaching "the gospel" in The Land was forbidden in Jesus' day, as it is this day. That has not changed. However, one might observe that style of punishment has changed quite a bit over much of the world during the past two thousand years.

[nofear2]

It was forbidden before even one was killed for not converting! Acts 4:13-18! Even St. Stephen was not stoned (by Pharisees, including Saul of Tarsus) yet!

You're not reading!

:rolleyes:
Um...there was no death penalty from the time Jesus had supposedly been walking the earth why would anyone be stoned?

[nofear2]

What if I were to bring proof that Jesus' own teachings (Sermon on the Mount) echoed that of the Pharisees. For from what I had seen Jesus was definitely at some point a Pharisee and coupled with the fact that he was allegedly ordained as a Rabbi (a term reserved exclusively for the leaders of the Pharisees) it is safe to say that (despite his disdain for them) Jesus WAS a Pharisee. This too would in fact explain his outrage towards them for not accepting him as the Messiah. For nothing is worse then your own kind not accepting your claim as such and being so it is very possible this would have felt to Jesus as a betrayal on their part - hence the personal agenda which appears in the NT against the Pharisees.

[lwdc]

Um...there was no death penalty from the time Jesus had supposedly been walking the earth why would anyone be stoned?Um...that would be a question for the followers of the "Pharisee" from Nazareth who wrote and canonized the book of Acts, specifically chapter 7, in which Stephen is stoned.

If the writers of the book and chapter, who followed the Nazarene "Pharisee", got the their facts wrong, then don't blame me.

[lwdc]

What if I were to bring proof that Jesus' own teachings (Sermon on the Mount) echoed that of the Pharisees. I have no doubt that some of Jesus' teachings echoed that of the Pharisees.

Bring me proof that he was a Pharisee.

Be sure to show it Harmoni and Shady first, as they would be able to judge better than I whether it is "proof".

Go for it.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

Now you guys are getting into the discussion area where this probably belongs in the RF. It probably should have been posted there to begin with. ~BH

[Jacob_Rising]

I have no doubt that some of Jesus' teachings echoed that of the Pharisees.

Bring me proof that he was a Pharisee.

Be sure to show it Harmoni and Shady first, as they would be able to judge better than I whether it is "proof".

Go for it.If you want to bring Harmonious and Shady in here , go ahead.

I'll present the evidence.

Just because Harmonious and Shady don't see Jesus as a true Pharisee doen't mean he wasn't raised a Pharisee{He was}

You have allready been told by Jews that the word Rabbi pertains only to Pharisees and you wont admit that, so why should we bother Harmonious and Shady?

The fact is, The New Testament paints Jesus as a Pharisee and I can prove that to any Jew. He might have been a poor example as a Pharisee to them but he was still a Pharisee, or that the New Testament leads us to believe he was one.

[Jacob_Rising]

Now you guys are getting into the discussion area where this probably belongs in the RF. It probably should have been posted there to begin with. ~BHThis thread did begin in RF but it was moved.

[Stardust]

This thread really doesn't help anyone - Christians or Jews. It just stirs up animosity for both groups.

It is a shame that these incidents happen in the first place, but there is nothing positive that can come out of a thread like this.

Jewish and Christian leaders in Jerusalem have to sit down and discuss ways to amicably resolve their differences, and these leaders should be those versed and knowledgeable in both religions.

This thread should really be closed as it serves no good purpose.

[lwdc]

If you want to bring Harmonious and Shady in here , go ahead.No, I see no reason for them to be involved. I asked nofear to offer his "proof" to them that the Nazarene was a Pharisee. I have a strong feeling that he will not be calling on them regarding the matter anytime soon. In fact, I don't think he will ever call on them offering "proof" that the Nazarene was a Pharisee.

I'll present the evidence.

Just because Harmonious and Shady don't see Jesus as a true Pharisee doen't mean he wasn't raised a Pharisee{He was}Just because you see Jesus as a true Pharisee doesn't mean He is {He isn't}.

You have allready been told by Jews that the word Rabbi pertains only to Pharisees and you wont admit that, so why should we bother Harmonious and Shady?I have heard many more respected Jewish men referred to as "Rabbi" by Jews when they were not Pharisees.

What nofear says might be gospel to you, but it isn't gospel to me.

The fact is, The New Testament paints Jesus as a Pharisee and I can prove that to any Jew.
:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

(Good luck.)

He might have been a poor example as a Pharisee to them but he was still a Pharisee, or that the New Testament leads us to believe he was one.The New Testament leads us to believe He was not.

[Jacob_Rising]

Preaching "the gospel" in The Land was forbidden in Jesus' day, as it is this day. That has not changed. However, one might observe that style of punishment has changed quite a bit over much of the world during the past two thousand years.If you were to show me somebody Proclaiming the Real Yeshuah in Israel, we would not be having this discussion.

They wouldn't have lodged a complaint and we would have heard about the story from a different perspective.

The perspective would be that Christians were walking in Judea raising the dead, Healing all the sick.

Muslims would be following them around converting to Christianity because of the Miracles they perfomed.

Instead you show a Greek Orthodox that most likely thinks he is Jerusalem, or the real truth{Gospel}.

Like I pointed out before in this thread, The Greek Priest and the Jews have a very long history together.

At the Height of Jewish Hatred during the Most anti-Semitic time, The Jews were exiled from their land under penalty of Death and nobody Practiced any Jewish ritural under penalty of Death.

Jerusalem fell under Hadrian and Jews were forced out of their synogogues and the Greek came into Jerusalem and formaly took what belonged to the Jews.

Where is the outrage from this incident?

These Greek Priests took on the popular holy days of Rome to appease Hadrian and to seperate themselves from the hatred everyone had for Jews.

They should have stood side by side with the Jews and if they wanted to follow the same religion as Jesus, They should have continued in the traditions and riturals taught by Jesus and Paul but they didn't. They didn't because those traditions were Jewish.


I can't imagine another sect of Christianity Being more offensive to Jews than the Greek Priests who went against them in 135.

You give me the scripture in Acts trying to show where Proclaiming Jesus is ok even if it breaks the law.

I see no place where these people are proclaiming Jesus in My opinion.

But then My opinions aren 't always correct.

[Jacob_Rising]

This thread really doesn't help anyone - Christians or Jews. It just stirs up animosity for both groups.

It is a shame that these incidents happen in the first place, but there is nothing positive that can come out of a thread like this.

Jewish and Christian leaders in Jerusalem have to sit down and discuss ways to amicably resolve their differences, and these leaders should be those versed and knowledgeable in both religions.

This thread should really be closed as it serves no good purpose.I've allready said this and I do completely agree, this thread should not have been found on the forum at all.

But it's still here, I'de be as happy as a Lark if it wasn't here tomorrow.

[Jacob_Rising]

No, I see no reason for them to be involved. I asked nofear to offer his "proof" to them that the Nazarene was a Pharisee. I have a strong feeling that he will not be calling on them regarding the matter anytime soon. In fact, I don't think he will ever call on them offering "proof" that the Nazarene was a Pharisee.

Just because you see Jesus as a true Pharisee doesn't mean He is {He isn't}.

I have heard many more respected Jewish men referred to as "Rabbi" by Jews when they were not Pharisees.

What nofear says might be gospel to you, but it isn't gospel to me.


:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

(Good luck.)

The New Testament leads us to believe He was not.
You keep saying, '' Nazerine '' as if that means something.

He was called this trying to seperate Christians from Judaism well after Christianity had been around.

'' What Nofear says might be gospel to you, but it isn't gospel to me''

Seems like your contradicting yourself here.

You just got through asking for Harmonious and Shady to Judge, dint you?

What Happens when Harmonious and Shady come here and agree that the New Testament paints Jesus as a Pharisee?

You gonna say the same thing if they disagree with you, after asking for them to be judges?

[Stardust]

I've allready said this and I do completely agree, this thread should not have been found on the forum at all.

But it's still here, I'de be as happy as a Lark if it wasn't here tomorrow.

I understand. I am sorry that good folk here got baited into adding comments in this horrific thread.

This is truly a regional issue. Christians and Jews, on the most part, get along very well in the world together, but you will never read or hear this much anywhere. I am a Christian and have nothing but compassion and admiration for the Jews.

This thread should really be closed. I will ask the mods to do it.

[Jacob_Rising]

I understand. I am sorry that good folk here got baited into adding comments in this horrific thread.

This is truly a regional issue. Christians and Jews, on the most part, get along very well in the world together, but you will never read or hear this much anywhere. I am a Christian and have nothing but compassion and admiration for the Jews.

This thread should really be closed. I will ask the mods to do it.I'm behind you there, I wished it would dissappear.

[lwdc]

You keep saying, '' Nazerine '' as if that means something.He was from Nazareth: that’s why I refer to Him as the “Nazarene”.

People from Texas are called “Texans”.

Make sense?

'' What Nofear says might be gospel to you, but it isn't gospel to me''

Seems like your contradicting yourself here.No. You can choose take a great deal of stock in what nofear says. I choose not to, as is my prerogative. There’s no contradiction: what Harmoni and Shady say is not gospel to me either, although I am interested in what they have to say, and I enjoy reading/conversing with them.

You just got through asking for Harmonious and Shady to Judge, dint you?Yes. For your edification. Not my own.

What Happens when Harmonious and Shady come here and agree that the New Testament paints Jesus as a Pharisee? Now, that would be truly interesting.

You gonna say the same thing if they disagree with you, after asking for them to be judges?We’ll see what I say… when they affirm that the Jesus was a Pharisee.

I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.

[JudasGoat]

"OJ Simpson, NOT a Jew...

[Stardust]

Originally Posted by Stardust
I understand. I am sorry that good folk here got baited into adding comments in this horrific thread.

This is truly a regional issue. Christians and Jews, on the most part, get along very well in the world together, but you will never read or hear this much anywhere. I am a Christian and have nothing but compassion and admiration for the Jews.

This thread should really be closed. I will ask the mods to do it.

I'm behind you there, I wished it would dissappear.

I asked the moderator to close the thread. For reasons unknown to me, he wouldn't.

The only advice I can give at this point is for folks not to allow themselves to be baited here (by adding more comments) and just allow the thread to die.

I am sure most folks here are aware that this is a regional issue, and in most parts of the world, Jews and Christians get along fine.

[Jacob_Rising]

He was from Nazareth: that’s why I refer to Him as the “Nazarene”.

People from Texas are called “Texans”.

Make sense?

No. You can choose take a great deal of stock in what nofear says. I choose not to, as is my prerogative. There’s no contradiction: what Harmoni and Shady say is not gospel to me either, although I am interested in what they have to say, and I enjoy reading/conversing with them.

Yes. For your edification. Not my own.

Now, that would be truly interesting.

We’ll see what I say… when they affirm that the Jesus was a Pharisee.

I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.Then I will post a thread and poll whether or not Jesus was a Pharisee in the Religion forum this week.

I'll make a poll to the Jews only and I'll give every example I can find where the New Testament paints Jesus as a Pharisee.

And it will be, '' It is what it is''

I have no idea what they will say.

Until then I'm not going to come back to this thread and I really do apologize for being a Horse's arse in here and I regret offending anyone, especially you lwdc.

[Harmonious]

Whoa. When this thread shifted Forums due to weirdness, I thought that was the last that I'd see of it.

There are a lot of bizarre accusations, and I'm not sure I understand any of it.

While I admit that Jesus might have originally been raised to be a Pharisee, the fact is that according to the gospels (and I've read all four of them), Jesus loudly repudiates all the Pharisees.

From what I read, Jesus never made a distinction between "law abiding Pharisees" and "corrupt Pharisees," although something interesting was supposed to be proven by Nichodemus, about whom I know nothing.

From what I read, Jesus railed against all Pharisees as whitewashed tombs who were more interested in outward show than in the intent of the commandments. Many things that Jesus taught, from the Sermon on the Mount, to any other teachings I've read, go very much against any of the teachings of the Pharisees.

Many of the nonsensical arguments (from a Jewish, legal perspective) showed that Jesus had NO respect for Jewish law, as taught and understood by Pharisees.

I'm not sure how the idea got into anyone's head that Jesus WAS a Pharisee, besides someone's sincere desire to want him to be one. He might have originally been raised as one, but from his own choices, certainly was one no longer.

I am convinced that if he lived today, he would probably change his mind from a lot of choices he made all those years ago and choose instead to live as an Orthodox Jew. But the idea remains that at the time of his death (or whatever else you want to believe about him), he certainly was no such thing.

In much the same way as I didn't start life as an Orthodox Jew (I've always been a Jew, just not religious), but became one later on, Jesus might have started life as a Pharisee, but stopped being one later on.

The Jesus I read about in the four gospels is no Pharisee.

[Jacob_Rising]

While I admit that Jesus might have originally been raised to be a Pharisee, This is the Only point, was or wasn't he raised as a Pharisee.

[Harmonious]

This is the Only point, was or wasn't he raised as a Pharisee.
I don't know. Either way is possible. But that doesn't define him, like a tribe.

His ACTIONS and PHILOSOPHIES would define him as a Pharisee, an Essene, a Sadducee, or whatever.

[Jacob_Rising]

I don't know. Either way is possible. But that doesn't define him, like a tribe.

His ACTIONS and PHILOSOPHIES would define him as a Pharisee, an Essene, a Sadducee, or whatever.My only intent would be to show him raised as a Pharisee.

I understand your objection, as I would understand your objection that any follower of Jesus was a Pharisee.

In our book of acts, Paul calls himself a Pharisee and comes to the council with his Pharisee brethren, still calling themselves Pharisees.

I understand that you wouldn't consider them still Pharisees.

So my only point is to show that the New Testament paints Jesus as a Pharisee whether right or wrong, There were many so called Christian Pharisees in the New Testament.

Paul was a Pharisee concerning the law, but he was also something else by his own admission.

I'll post what I have by tomorrow and I bet it will be interesting.

But I said before, I don't wanna continue talkin in this thread.

[Harmonious]

When Paul decided that Jews didn't have to follow the Torah, only Jesus, or words to that effect, Paul was no Pharisee. Especially concerning the law.

[Jacob_Rising]

When Paul decided that Jews didn't have to follow the Torah, only Jesus, or words to that effect, Paul was no Pharisee. Especially concerning the law.I completely understand your view.

I'm just saying that the New Testament painted Jesus and many of his followers ,'' Christian Pharisees''

I know this looks like OxyMoron.

But many Believers in Christ called themselves Pharisees after they believed .

[Harmonious]

I completely understand your view.

I'm just saying that the New Testament painted Jesus and many of his followers ,'' Christian Pharisees''

I know this looks like OxyMoron.

But many Believers in Christ called themselves Pharisees after they believed .
It IS an oxymoron. Once they believed Jesus to be a greater Torah authority (and whatever else they believed him to be) than the Rabbis of the time, they WERE NO LONGER PHARISEES, regardless of what they wanted to be called.

But YOU are the only one I know who believes that after Jesus broke with the Pharisees that his followers considered themselves Pharisees.

I don't understand why you insist they were.

[Jacob_Rising]

It IS an oxymoron. Once they believed Jesus to be a greater Torah authority (and whatever else they believed him to be) than the Rabbis of the time, they WERE NO LONGER PHARISEES, regardless of what they wanted to be called.

But YOU are the only one I know who believes that after Jesus broke with the Pharisees that his followers considered themselves Pharisees.

I don't understand why you insist they were.
When has anyone else agreed with me about anything:hug:

I don't insist that they were, I insist that the New Testament does Show Paul himself admitting that concerning the law, he was a Pharisee.

I will show believers in Jesus calling themselves Pharisees.

[Bolshevik Hunter]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n229/kampkirk88/1550.gif ~BH

[nofear2]

Um...that would be a question for the followers of the "Pharisee" from Nazareth who wrote and canonized the book of Acts, specifically chapter 7, in which Stephen is stoned.

If the writers of the book and chapter, who followed the Nazarene "Pharisee", got the their facts wrong, then don't blame me.
Or perhaps as the Jews view it - The NT is a fabrication. Being as the supposed story doesn't add up with our historical facts there is much room to question.

[nofear2]

I have no doubt that some of Jesus' teachings echoed that of the Pharisees.

Bring me proof that he was a Pharisee.

Be sure to show it Harmoni and Shady first, as they would be able to judge better than I whether it is "proof".

Go for it.I think we are on 2 different pages here - I am of the opinion that Jesus was in fact a Pharisee till a certain point and the deviated from Judaism.

[nofear2]

I have heard many more respected Jewish men referred to as "Rabbi" by Jews when they were not Pharisees.

What nofear says might be gospel to you, but it isn't gospel to me.

PSST, had you done any critical look at the people referred to as "Rabbis" you will have seen that they come from the Pharisees. In fact every sect of Judaism today that is mainstream is Pharisee in origin. This means that the Ashkenazim, the Spharedim, the Chassidim, the Reform and the Conservative ALL have their roots in the way of the Pharisees.

The one sect of Judaism which has an ideology as the Sadducees once had - a group referred to as the Karaaim - refer to their leaders as the Chacham.

Based on this it is safe to say that your above statement shows your disdain for what I have to say regardless of whether it is the truth or not. Apparently you're not all that much into fact are you?

[Bolshevik Hunter]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n229/kampkirk88/smiley_pizza.gif ~BH

[lwdc]

Or perhaps as the Jews view it - The NT is a fabrication. Being as the supposed story doesn't add up with our historical facts there is much room to question.I’d take what I deem is the inspired word of God over your historical “facts” any day. Of course, you are free to disagree with me, and I expect no less from you.

[lwdc]

I think we are on 2 different pages here - I am of the opinion that Jesus was in fact a Pharisee till a certain point and the deviated from Judaism.Well, that makes two of you on the entire planet.

Question: are mamzers groomed at a young age by Pharisees to become Pharisees? Hint: this is a “yes” or “no” question.

[lwdc]

PSST, had you done any critical look at the people referred to as "Rabbis" you will have seen that they come from the Pharisees. In fact every sect of Judaism today that is mainstream is Pharisee in origin. This means that the Ashkenazim, the Spharedim, the Chassidim, the Reform and the Conservative ALL have their roots in the way of the Pharisees.Thanks for the lesson.

Based on this it is safe to say that your above statement shows your disdain for what I have to say regardless of whether it is the truth or not. Apparently you're not all that much into fact are you?Actually, I am “into fact”. I hold in disdain only those particular assertions that strike me as untruthful.

[nofear2]

Question: are mamzers groomed at a young age by Pharisees to become Pharisees? Hint: this is a “yes” or “no” question.

Mamzerim are uncommon but they have an obligation to learn Torah just as any Jew. Why is this question even relevant?

[lwdc]

Mamzerim are uncommon but they have an obligation to learn Torah just as any Jew. Why is this question even relevant?That is not an answer to the question. I even gave you a hint:
Hint: this is a “yes” or “no” question.
Now, you can ignore the question, or you can answer the question directly (“yes” or “no”), or you can continue to spin with another non-answer response.

If I were you, I would simply ignore the question. But I have a suspicion that your pride won’t let you.

My guess is that you will spin, just as you did in your last post.

[CaffeineHat]

I think this thread might have been better titled if the word Jews had been replaced with Jewish extremists. As a jew who has travelled to Jerusalem on a few different occasions I can say that I never witnessed what's described here. Further, in Houston I have several Israeli friends who I would classify as moderate to non religious and who would be appalled by this.

I think that any time you define an entire religion based on a group of people who believe spitting is a valid form of communication you risk generalization. The fact that one of the spitters was a Yeshiva student indicates that he may hold very strong views (depending on the yeshiva he attends). Whatever the case, I would surmise that the spitters are extremists and for the most part a minority. To judge an entire people based on the actions of a few extremists is unfair and unnecessary. I'm not sure what the goal of the OP was, since it was simply a reposting of a story with no opinion. If I were to make shallow assessments, I might assume that it is somehow meant to be inflammatory towards Jewish people. At least that is how it appears on the surface. I may be wrong.

[Stardust]

I'm not sure what the goal of the OP was, since it was simply a reposting of a story with no opinion. If I were to make shallow assessments, I might assume that it is somehow meant to be inflammatory towards Jewish people. At least that is how it appears on the surface. I may be wrong.

Absolutely, the thread is inflamatory towards Jews (and I am a devout Catholic - not a Jew saying this). This is why I thought it best to close the thread - and tried to - but to no avail.

I agree with you, this is a regional problem (in Jerusalem) that is best handled by the religious leaders in that region.

[Mithrastan]

This thread is inflammatory towards people who spit on other people.

[CaffeineHat]

This thread is inflammatory towards people who spit on other people.
Maybe I'm being oversensitive, but I don't get that from the overall tone or from the use of the word Jew in the title. I realize it's a semantic argument and semantics are often the casualty in these sorts of thread. I also realize that tone is lost in printed text and therefore I cannot really address the OP's intent. But my opinion is that throughout the thread there are posts that contain some generalized anger focused at Jews as a people rather than the individuals who did the spitting.

[Stardust]

I also realize that tone is lost in printed text and therefore I cannot really address the OP's intent.

I looked up the OP's history. He has all of 14 posts on this board (which I find suspicious to begin with).......someone who has been previously thrown off and got back on, perhaps?

He started one thread "Religulous" that was locked by the mods because it was found to be "inappropriate, disrepsectful and not in line with the rules of the subforum." (He asked why it was locked.)

My guess (from reading the few posts he wrote) - he is a disgruntled atheist who tries to bring out all that is bad in religion - never the good - and someone who has been previously banned from the board, but continues to post under other names. Again, this is my guess, but most of the time I am right.

[Jacob_Rising]

I think this thread might have been better titled if the word Jews had been replaced with Jewish extremists. As a jew who has travelled to Jerusalem on a few different occasions I can say that I never witnessed what's described here. Further, in Houston I have several Israeli friends who I would classify as moderate to non religious and who would be appalled by this.
As a Gentile and a Christian, I say the same thing.

It's biased against Jews.

[Harmonious]

That is not an answer to the question. I even gave you a hint:

Now, you can ignore the question, or you can answer the question directly (“yes” or “no”), or you can continue to spin with another non-answer response.

If I were you, I would simply ignore the question. But I have a suspicion that your pride won’t let you.

My guess is that you will spin, just as you did in your last post.

Dude, I think you missed nofear2's answer.

The answer is "YES, just like all other Jews should be."

[Harmonious]

i think this thread might have been better titled if the word jews had been replaced with jewish extremists. As a jew who has travelled to jerusalem on a few different occasions i can say that i never witnessed what's described here. Further, in houston i have several israeli friends who i would classify as moderate to non religious and who would be appalled by this.

I think that any time you define an entire religion based on a group of people who believe spitting is a valid form of communication you risk generalization. The fact that one of the spitters was a yeshiva student indicates that he may hold very strong views (depending on the yeshiva he attends). Whatever the case, i would surmise that the spitters are extremists and for the most part a minority. To judge an entire people based on the actions of a few extremists is unfair and unnecessary. I'm not sure what the goal of the op was, since it was simply a reposting of a story with no opinion. If i were to make shallow assessments, i might assume that it is somehow meant to be inflammatory towards jewish people. At least that is how it appears on the surface. I may be wrong.+1

[Mithrastan]

I see what you're saying about generalization.
Please go to the mod forum and specifically request a thread title change.
To try to get the thread thrown out outright is, imo, a little bit overboard.

[lwdc]

Dude, I think you missed nofear2's answer.

The answer is "YES, just like all other Jews should be."No, Dudette. I didn't ask if mamzerim are obligated to learn the Torah like every other Jew. I asked:
Question: are mamzers groomed at a young age by Pharisees to become Pharisees? Hint: this is a “yes” or “no” question.

Simply learning the Torah as all Jews should does not make one a Pharisee, or a Rabbi. :snooty: You know that very well. :naughty:

The answer to the question is "yes" or "no". Let nofear do his own spinning.

[Harmonious]

No, Dudette. I didn't ask if mamzerim are obligated to learn the Torah like every other Jew. I asked:


Simply learning the Torah as all Jews should does not make one a Pharisee. :snooty: You know that. :naughty:Indeed. You are correct.

Still, I say that if a mamzer was adopted by (or, unfortunately created by) Orthodox Jews, he would and should be raised and groomed to be an Orthodox Jew. Or a Pharisee. I'm not sure of the question.

The answer to the question is "yes" or "no". Let nofear do his own spinning.
I fail to see the "spin" you seek.

[Stardust]

I see what you're saying about generalization.
Please go to the mod forum and specifically request a thread title change.
To try to get the thread thrown out outright is, imo, a little bit overboard.

As mentioned previously, just allow the thread to die by not posting in it. If I were Jewish, I wouldn't want to continue to "keep this thread alive" by continuing to post here. Also, as mentioned previously, you are just being baited here.

[lwdc]

I fail to see the "spin" you seek.I seek none. A simple "yes" or "no" answer will suffice.

[nofear2]

That is not an answer to the question. I even gave you a hint:

Now, you can ignore the question, or you can answer the question directly (“yes” or “no”), or you can continue to spin with another non-answer response.

If I were you, I would simply ignore the question. But I have a suspicion that your pride won’t let you.

My guess is that you will spin, just as you did in your last post.

The answer is yes. Why should I ignore the question? Why would pride make me answer it. I'm not quite picking up in what you're trying to say. Mamzerim are taught Torah just as any other Jew would be. They are not at fault for the sin of their parents that they shouldn't have equal right to education.

[nofear2]

Simply learning the Torah as all Jews should does not make one a Pharisee, or a Rabbi. You know that very well.I don't get what you're asking. Are you trying to say that there is a difference between an orthodox Jew and a Pharisee?

The answer to the question is "yes" or "no". Let nofear do his own spinning.
Um...how do I put this best...Harm, PS, CMike, and the other Jews who regularly post here are one voice.

[lwdc]

The answer is yes.Thanks. That's all.

[lwdc]

I don't get what you're asking. Are you trying to say that there is a difference between an orthodox Jew and a Pharisee?No. But there are differences in faith among Jews.

Um...how do I put this best...Harm, PS, CMike, and the other Jews who regularly post here are one voice.No.

Um... how do I put this best... you, Harm, PS, CMike might be of one voice (according to you, at least)...

But there are other Jews who regularly post here who do not necessarily share your opinions.

[lwdc]

When Paul said, '' Touching the law''

He meant that he still had zeal in Keeping the law, and that Jews should keep the law.

That's why the believers who belived in keeping the law were Pharisaical.

Pharisee pretty much means '' He who has Zeal in keeping the law.''Like Jesus, right?

[Jacob_Rising]

Like Jesus, right?That's what I have assumed, I had delted that because I shouldn't even continue.

[Jacob_Rising]

If John the Babtist came up saying ,'' Repent'' Then I would say he was Pharisaical.

If Christianity claims that Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping the law, I would say that was Pharisaical.

Pharisee is the name given to those who are the seperatist of Seperatism.

That seperatism is the belief in the strick adherence to the law, and this is the voluntary law movement who are known for a zeal for keeping the law.

[lwdc]

That's what I have assumed, I had delted that because I shouldn't even continue.Why did Jesus say to Pharisees:

ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.- Matthew 15:6

Pick it up in the "Jesus was a Pharisee" poll thread you've been talking about starting all week. Since you also believe He was a rabbi among Pharisees, you might consider including that in your poll.

Since you've been threatening to boycott this thread all week (but still show up around here), I guess I'll catch you in the other thread.

[Jacob_Rising]

Why did Jesus say to Pharisees:

- Matthew 15:6

Pick it up in the "Jesus was a Pharisee" poll thread you've been talking about starting all week. Since you also believe He was a rabbi among Pharisees, you might consider including that in your poll.

Since you've been threatening to boycott this thread all week (but still show up around here), I guess I'll catch you in the other thread.Well I see the thread still moving either way, I havn't posted in a while.

I havn't had time to look up all the scriptures, too much going on right now.

My assumption that Jesus was a Pharisee comes from my assumption of what I see a Pharisee to be.

I come from this assumptions through studying the Jewish Feasts which I'm always talking about.

I've never went out searching whether Jesus was a Pharisee or Not, But everything I've read leads me to believe he was one.

If Jesus wasn't a Pharisee, it would contradict Paul himself, Because Paul said, '' According to the law, I am a Pharisee''

This is a school of thought about your zeal in Keeping Torah and thus it would contradict Jesus if Paul was a Pharisee and Jesus wasn't.

According to the law, all Christians claim to come from a Pharisaical origin.

If we believe that Jews should all keep the law and the New Testament certainly teaches that all Jews should keep the law with Zeal.

[nofear2]

No. But there are differences in faith among Jews.


Really? Explain - What is the difference between the Ashkenaz and the Sephared?

[Jacob_Rising]

I understand the Jews saying that Jesus left off being a Pharisee because they believe he broke the law.

I would understand them saying Paul wasn't a Pharisee because they believe he leads people to break the law.

But I still assume a Pharisee is a person who believes that he is strickly keeping the law.

I believe Paul thought himself to be a true Pharisee, because he believed that he was keeping the law, and he was told Myriads of Jews became believers and '' ALL were Zealous for keeping the law''

[nofear2]

I understand the Jews saying that Jesus left off being a Pharisee because they believe he broke the law.

I would understand them saying Paul wasn't a Pharisee because they believe he leads people to break the law.

But I still assume a Pharisee is a person who believes that he is strickly keeping the law.

I believe Paul thought himself to be a true Pharisee, because he believed that he was keeping the law, and he was told Myriads of Jews became believers and '' ALL were Zealous for keeping the law''
A Pharisee is one who would live by a code in which he would interpret the law a certain way. This code was passed down from Moses to the great leaders and Rabbis throughout our history. Having said this Paul could not have been a Pharisee once he began interpreting the Bible as he did.

[Mimiheart]

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1364371

For your convenience...

[Jacob_Rising]

A Pharisee is one who would live by a code in which he would interpret the law a certain way. This code was passed down from Moses to the great leaders and Rabbis throughout our history. Having said this Paul could not have been a Pharisee once he began interpreting the Bible as he did.I completely understand your objection.

My point is that Paul called himself a Pharisee concerning the law.

I understand that you completely don't believe for a second that he was a Pharisee, That's a given.

But because he called himself a Pharisee tells me that he thinks he is the true Pharisee in that he does strickly keep the law.

I'm mot challenging whether he was a true Pharisee of not.

His admission to being a Pharisee is his admission that he comes from the school of thought that believes in strickly keeping the law.

Therefore, If Jesus was not a Pharisee, Then Paul is claiming that his school of Thought is not the same as Jesus.

So wouldn't it be a contradiction if Paul called himself a Pharisee when Jesus was not a Pharisee?

[lwdc]

Really? Explain - What is the difference between the Ashkenaz and the Sephared?Ashkenazim and Shephardim are not "faiths" within Judaism. You know that as well as I. :naughty:

[Mimiheart]

No. But there are differences in faith among Jews.

No.

Um... how do I put this best... you, Harm, PS, CMike might be of one voice (according to you, at least)...

But there are other Jews who regularly post here who do not necessarily share your opinions.No, there are people who claim to be Jews that are actually Christians. There's a big difference.

[nofear2]

Ashkenazim and Shephardim are not "faiths" within Judaism. You know that as well as I. :naughty:

Then what or who are you referring to?

[lwdc]

No, there are people who claim to be Jews that are actually Christians. There's a big difference.I'm not talking about them. There are many Jewish posters here, who are not Christian, who do not share the views of nofear and others.