Flag Draped Coffins

[RentedMule]

Last night during the President's news conference, a reporter asked if the President plans to recind the order not to show flag draped coffins on TV of our fallen heros returning home.

I was always against this policy. I understand this undermines an administrations attempts to garner support for a war, but these are our heros! They should be honored in plain view in our living rooms each night! Not hidden away from public view and treated as mere numbers! They deserve more than "Support Our Troop" bumper stickers as the only visible reminder of their sacrifice. The should be at the forefront of our thoughts before we sit down to dinner in our homes.

[Gengar]

It's a private matter and should not be broadcast. Let the families grieve in private.

[Loyal American]

Where do you get that they are treated as meer numbers? They are our countries finest and they should be treated with respect and privacy. They're families deserve better too! Let's not repeat the Vietnam thing again, please!

[The Bos'un]

Join the military wear a uniform and you will understand, Rented Mule..... Heros do it because they love our country, they do not fight on emotion, something the liberals seem to thrive on.

[Scott Adie]

Last night during the President's news conference, a reporter asked if the President plans to recind the order not to show flag draped coffins on TV of our fallen heros returning home.

I was always against this policy. I understand this undermines an administrations attempts to garner support for a war, but these are our heros! They should be honored in plain view in our living rooms each night! Not hidden away from public view and treated as mere numbers! They deserve more than "Support Our Troop" bumper stickers as the only visible reminder of their sacrifice. The should be at the forefront of our thoughts before we sit down to dinner in our homes.

That was asked by a Huffington Post reporter (and I use the term losely). That is such a far left piece of excrement it isn't worth mentioning. The question was asked in the hope that President Obama would answer in the affirmative so that the Huffingturd Pest could build anti-war propaganda.

They do deserve more support than bumper stickers and airport greetings but their families also need to grieve privately. We have Veteran's Day and Memorial Day to share our grief with them. If we want to show our support, there are numerous other ways to do so. Their family, friends and local communities are there to support those who lose sons and daughters in the war. They will never be aware of what takes place in our living room if we were to see our dead soldiers flag draped caskets. I have cried alone many times when I did see them.

[Loyal American]

SNIP:
I wore a US Navy uniform for 8 years, TYVM. And I still have the American Flag that was draped over my grandfathers coffin when he returned from WWII. My feeling is if someone doesnt have the guts to watch our heros return home on TV, they can turn the channel to American Idol.Thank you to you and your Grandfather for your service to our beautiful country RentedMule! Please know it is greatly appreciated! :flag:

To Loyal American:
I say they are treated like numbers because that is all the public is shown concerning their sacrific, a number on a newcast chart.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this point RM because I don't see things like you do! I don't want our brave put out there to just be used by MSM to bolster their hidden anti-American, anti-military agenda!

[ArmyMAJretired]

I posted this in the other thread:

Then lets show the coffins of every person that died in a traffic accident to show what happens when people speed or drive drunk, etc. KNOW THE COST!

Let's show the coffins of all the people dying from smoking to prevent others from that painful death. KNOW THE COST

Let's show the coffins of AIDS vistyims while we are at it. Don't forget victims of domestic violence and thaose dying from illegal drug overdoses. KNOW THE COST

The difference between those deaths and the military coffins is simple POLITICAL AGENDA!

PS

Let's show the coffins of those killed by Illegal Aliens as well, KNOW THE COST.

Of course those won't support a liberal agenda either.

[USAF Medic]

Last night during the President's news conference, a reporter asked if the President plans to recind the order not to show flag draped coffins on TV of our fallen heros returning home.

I was always against this policy. I understand this undermines an administrations attempts to garner support for a war, but these are our heros! They should be honored in plain view in our living rooms each night! Not hidden away from public view and treated as mere numbers! They deserve more than "Support Our Troop" bumper stickers as the only visible reminder of their sacrifice. The should be at the forefront of our thoughts before we sit down to dinner in our homes.

Riiiiight...because your average American, who does not have a vested personal interest in the war, is running home from work each night to make sure they get to see the flag draped coffins of Americans comming off a C-17 so they can reflect and pay respect to our fallen servicemen.

Unless they have a loved one serving in a combat zone most Americans don't give two hoots about whether the media reports on or shows pictures of our returning heros

[trsjr70]

I posted this in the other thread:

Then lets show the coffins of every person that died in a traffic accident to show what happens when people speed or drive drunk, etc. KNOW THE COST!

Let's show the coffins of all the people dying from smoking to prevent others from that painful death. KNOW THE COST

Let's show the coffins of AIDS vistyims while we are at it. Don't forget victims of domestic violence and thaose dying from illegal drug overdoses. KNOW THE COST

The difference between those deaths and the military coffins is simple POLITICAL AGENDA!

PS

Let's show the coffins of those killed by Illegal Aliens as well, KNOW THE COST.

Of course those won't support a liberal agenda either.
I started to type a similar response, but you've already said it... I've lit into liberals and pseudo-conservatives for pretending to give a half a crap about the sacrifices of those in harm's way.

I've invited many of these folks to get behind a cause upon which they can exact change, such as reducing traffic accident deaths, homicides, domestic violence, drug overdose, etc.

Most simply don't get it, and those that do aren't motivated enough to do anything constructive anyway.

[Mohawk5]

Do we show the coffins of every American that dies on national TV?

It's a private matter for the military and the families.

Why give the left more propaganda!?

[The Bos'un]

Thank you for your serve. My condolences to the loss of your grandfather during World War II.

Watching our fallen returning home for a war is not about "guts" my friend. I pick up some repressed anger in your typing.

During the Viet Nam war, we were on the battlefield with our troops every night courtesy of the nightly news. It polarized guilt.

Why did you get out after 8 years?

[rhet 2]

Thank you for your serve. My condolences to the loss of your grandfather during World War II.

Watching our fallen returning home for a war is not about "guts" my friend. I pick up some repressed anger in your typing.

During the Viet Nam war, we were on the battlefield with our troops every night courtesy of the nightly news. It polarized guilt.

Why did you get out after 8 years?

To spit on the coffins, screaming insults like "baby killers" and "monsters" -- which I DID see happen during the Leftist abuse and brutality of the Nam war -- that's one thing.

To stand in silence, mourning the loss of an honorable citizen, in respect for the sacrifice that citizen and the family made -- that is another.

What is despicable is the nightmare of scorn and dishonor the Pinkeestas and the Demongods have heaped upon our dead in order to destroy Bush and the GOP.

Such disgusting power mongering politicalization of war losses DID NOT HAPPEN during WW2.

Only the post-Hippie liberal is capable of that total moral depravity.

Intent matters -- and it matters a hell of a lot.

MSM using the sight of honorable death for an honorable cause to SELL THEIR POLITICAL CORRUPTION of Washington -- that is total depravity worthy of Nero and Caligula, worthy of cannibals and the most corrupt, depraved, and disgusting society on earth. A society so corrupt and lacking in common humanity that no sane and responsible human beings would not want such predatory carrion feeders living in their midst.

[Adlerian Thinker]

The Wolf has it right on this one.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/02/has-the-time-co.html
Has The Time Come To See The Fallen?
Posted By The Wolf

It was announced today that SecDef Gates has ordered a review of the ban on media coverage of soldiers remains who've returned from Iraq or Afghanistan. This is going to likely turn into one HOT topic over the coming months.

The NYT has it here; what is interesting is how they label the story- 'bodies'.

...skeptics, who include some families as well as opponents of the war in Iraq, say that the bodies in the returning coffins are not publicly identified, so privacy is not an issue, and that barring photographers is a political maneuver meant to sanitize the war.

I disagree.

The Denver Post has the story here, with a poll. The results may surprise you.

The ban, initiated in 1991 prior to the First Gulf War, has been even more tightly enforced during the GWOT. Given the controversial nature, the potential spread of the photos usage over the internet, and the likelihood that ne'er-do-wells would use the images in VERY negative ways, I believe this ban has become even more necessary.

I'm betting that most families would say so, as well. Who wants to open up a web page and see some war-protester (or heck, even 'academic' use) of your loved ones remains? Its too likely that these images may end up in 'fair use' ways that will be horribly, horribly inappropriate.

In respect for the families, Sec. Gates, do not overturn the ban.

I would push that ANYONE who can contact their representatives, do so, and push that they also push the SecDef to not overturn the ban. While they might 'lift' it somewhat, there is no 'controlled' use of images once they are placed on the 'net. Just.won't happen. If they DO, I would push for a lawsuit to put an injunction until more are heard from- publicly.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Last night during the President's news conference, a reporter asked if the President plans to recind the order not to show flag draped coffins on TV of our fallen heros returning home.

I was always against this policy. I understand this undermines an administrations attempts to garner support for a war, but these are our heros! They should be honored in plain view in our living rooms each night! Not hidden away from public view and treated as mere numbers! They deserve more than "Support Our Troop" bumper stickers as the only visible reminder of their sacrifice. The should be at the forefront of our thoughts before we sit down to dinner in our homes.

They are. It does not require the pictures of their coffins for that to happen.

My grandfather, God rest his soul, was given a military burial as befits a WWII vet. That was a family affair, not for public perusal.

The ban was put into place for a valid reason, a reason that has not changed. It should remain in place.

[Gengar]

Don't believe anyone from the Left when they say "This is how we should honor them!". They only want images of their flag draped coffins broadcast on TV so support for any kind of war for the foreseeable future is completely eroded.

[Scott Adie]

Don't believe anyone from the Left when they say "This is how we should honor them!". They only want images of their flag draped coffins broadcast on TV so support for any kind of war for the foreseeable future is completely eroded.

You are correct. We hear the numbers anyway and know that lives are lost so viewing their coffins on TV serves no viable purpose except to gin up opposition to the war.

If we are to honor our fallen heros that way, then we ought to similarly honor our slain children who are aborted in far greater numbers every couple of days than the number of soldiers whose lives have been lost since the beginning of the Iraq war. I don't think anybody could stomach that on TV in our living rooms.

When you think of it that way, it kind of sheds some light on the purposes of those who want to show flag draped caskets.

I thought our tradition was to let them rest in peace and for those who wished to honor them to attend their memorial services and visit their gravesites leaving prayers and flowers as expressions of our honor for them. If we need to honor their memory and can't do that, we should support the USO or visit a Veteran's Hospital to support those who really need it but are often forgotten. Let's not for a minute try to use them for pawns in our political maneuvering. I can think of no greater dishonor that we could bestow upon them.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Here are some thoughts on the matter from a Gold Star Father:
http://www.mudvillegazette.com/031490.html

"......Why shouldn't we let the media have access to film and put it on the evening news? Well for the same reason the media should not be the first to know the identity of the fallen before the family is told.

It is a very personal moment when a fallen hero arrives home. And the first to see that should be the family, not America.

Our family made a decision which granted me a special privilege and honor for me to go alone and meet Mike's body as he arrived from Dover at Hartsfield Atlanta Airport on August 24, 2005. A quiet singular reception, so I could ride in the hearse to take him to the funeral home 25 miles away on a road he and I traveled many times as I carried him to and from for weekend, holidays, and other visitation as a divorced dad. It was a "LAST RIDE TO TAKE MY BOY HOME". I wore a favorite blue blazer and red and blue tie as my way of showing respect to my son. As they uncrated his casket and draped the American flag over him I saluted from nearby, tears streaming down my cheeks as a number of busy airline air cargo employees suddenly stopped in stunned silence, only then realizing what was taking place. I held my salute, poor as it was for an untrained civilian, until the flag was completely draped and the edges evenly corned out. Then, I stepped outside to call my wife Retta who loved him like one of her own and as she answered the phone, tears still streaming down my cheeks, with a quiver in my voice, I said "our boy is home."

Others families did it "their way" and that is how it should be.

Mike Stokely and many others like him died for America. I was once asked what I thought the cost of freedom was. Freedom has many costs, but for the fallen and their families the cost is a Lifetime of Love. Is it too much to ask, given what we have paid for America and the likes of Ed Henry and CNN to be free to have that first moment to be ours and not America's? Should we now be asked to give more so that something so private can be used, not for furthering the first amendment, but to sell advertising to ensure a media's profitable bottom line? While black corporate ink is in most cases a good thing, it can not be so when it comes at the cost of dishonoring the spilled Red American Blood of our FALLEN.

Mr. President, I hope your answer to ED Henry, CNN and the likes will be an unequivocal, unwavering and unapologetic NO WE WILL NOT TURN THE HONORABLE SANCTITY OF DOVER INTO A MEDIA SPECTACLE!!!! You Sir, must protect our fallen and their families and the privacy of Dover.

After all Mr. President, that is little enough to ask given that the fallen gave their lives to protect you and your's.

DUTY HONOR COUNTRY.

Robert Stokely
proud dad SGT Mike Stokely
KIA 16 AUG 05 near Yusufiyah Iraq
USA E 108 CAV 48th BCT GAARNG

[rhet 2]

Here are some thoughts on the matter from a Gold Star Father:
http://www.mudvillegazette.com/031490.html

"......Why shouldn't we let the media have access to film and put it on the evening news? Well for the same reason the media should not be the first to know the identity of the fallen before the family is told.

It is a very personal moment when a fallen hero arrives home. And the first to see that should be the family, not America.

Our family made a decision which granted me a special privilege and honor for me to go alone and meet Mike's body as he arrived from Dover at Hartsfield Atlanta Airport on August 24, 2005. A quiet singular reception, so I could ride in the hearse to take him to the funeral home 25 miles away on a road he and I traveled many times as I carried him to and from for weekend, holidays, and other visitation as a divorced dad. It was a "LAST RIDE TO TAKE MY BOY HOME". I wore a favorite blue blazer and red and blue tie as my way of showing respect to my son. As they uncrated his casket and draped the American flag over him I saluted from nearby, tears streaming down my cheeks as a number of busy airline air cargo employees suddenly stopped in stunned silence, only then realizing what was taking place. I held my salute, poor as it was for an untrained civilian, until the flag was completely draped and the edges evenly corned out. Then, I stepped outside to call my wife Retta who loved him like one of her own and as she answered the phone, tears still streaming down my cheeks, with a quiver in my voice, I said "our boy is home."

Others families did it "their way" and that is how it should be.

Mike Stokely and many others like him died for America. I was once asked what I thought the cost of freedom was. Freedom has many costs, but for the fallen and their families the cost is a Lifetime of Love. Is it too much to ask, given what we have paid for America and the likes of Ed Henry and CNN to be free to have that first moment to be ours and not America's? Should we now be asked to give more so that something so private can be used, not for furthering the first amendment, but to sell advertising to ensure a media's profitable bottom line? While black corporate ink is in most cases a good thing, it can not be so when it comes at the cost of dishonoring the spilled Red American Blood of our FALLEN.

Mr. President, I hope your answer to ED Henry, CNN and the likes will be an unequivocal, unwavering and unapologetic NO WE WILL NOT TURN THE HONORABLE SANCTITY OF DOVER INTO A MEDIA SPECTACLE!!!! You Sir, must protect our fallen and their families and the privacy of Dover.

After all Mr. President, that is little enough to ask given that the fallen gave their lives to protect you and your's.

DUTY HONOR COUNTRY.

Robert Stokely
proud dad SGT Mike Stokely
KIA 16 AUG 05 near Yusufiyah Iraq
USA E 108 CAV 48th BCT GAARNG

God give them solace in the knowledge that their son was worthy of the way he was raised, worthy of the nation that he loved enough to give everything he had to give.

And God stuff the media's sick disgusting degraded lust for politicalized money making up the butts of the anti-American SLIME who would so degrade and commercialize and politicize the greatest NOBILITY of which humanity is capable.

God bless the Stokely family -- and shelter them from the dishonor and greed of fools.

[Adlerian Thinker]

God give them solace in the knowledge that their son was worthy of the way he was raised, worthy of the nation that he loved enough to give everything he had to give.

And God stuff the media's sick disgusting degraded lust for politicalized money making up the butts of the anti-American SLIME who would so degrade and commercialize and politicize the greatest NOBILITY of which humanity is capable.

God bless the Stokely family -- and shelter them from the dishonor and greed of fools.

Amen

[TinCan]

Well, in my opinion, by not answering right then and there with an unequivocal NO, President Obama failed in his first duty/decision as Commander in Chief. This is a no brainer and should not be open to discussion/decision by committee.

If you want to honor their sacrifice then step up to the plate and get involved. There are many ways to do it, all you have to do is look around. Above all, instead of just using Memorial Day as just another "holiday," go and volunteer to put flags on the graves of every veteran at your local cemetery and take your family and friends with you. Here's a link for inspiration:
http://www.usmemorialday.org/act.html
excerpt:
Memorial Day used to be a solemn day of mourning, a sacred day of remembrance to honor those who paid the ultimate price for our freedoms. Businesses closed for the day. Towns held parades honoring the fallen, the parade routes often times ending at a local cemetery, where Memorial Day speeches were given and prayers offered up. People took the time that day to clean and decorate with flowers and flags the graves of those the fell in service to their country.

[FirmHand135]

As long as the coffins can't be identified as to a specific person, then there should be no issue with showing an honorable picture of the coffin. After all, many if not all of these fallen soldiers funerals are covered by the local media.
The real issue here is censorship in order to stem public belief in a specific direction. I am of the thought that you have to have all the information and opposing viewpoints. One of those points of views is the actual human cost of war.

[Adlerian Thinker]

As long as the coffins can't be identified as to a specific person, then there should be no issue with showing an honorable picture of the coffin. After all, many if not all of these fallen soldiers funerals are covered by the local media.
The real issue here is censorship in order to stem public belief in a specific direction. I am of the thought that you have to have all the information and opposing viewpoints. One of those points of views is the actual human cost of war.

One does not need a picture if a coffin to know the cost of war.

What kind of a person, hearing that there were four killed while defusing a bomb, needs to see the caskets before the import of those lives lost hits them?

[Eric7772000]

Amen.

[H-minus]

How does seeing a coffin being unloaded from a plane honor someone?

The image is meant to invoke a feeling of revulsion not of honor.

[mrclean]

The public has the right to see the unfortunate consequences of war.

[H-minus]

No, they don't.

[crux]

The public has the right to see the unfortunate consequences of war.

The public do not have the right to see you or one of your family members dead. You're officially not working for the public anymore when you are dead.

The fact that death is a private moment for the family and not a public right has to be explained is truly sickening

[educ8er]

I wore a US Navy uniform for 8 years, TYVM. And I still have the American Flag that was draped over my grandfathers coffin when he returned from WWII. My feeling is if someone doesnt have the guts to watch our heros return home on TV, they can turn the channel to American Idol.

To Loyal American:
I say they are treated like numbers because that is all the public is shown concerning their sacrific, a number on a newcast chart.

To Gengar:
The life and death of an American Soldier is NOT a private family matter. It is a national tragedy and should be viewed as such.

Were it my son, you and I would have serious discussions about privacy and control of MY family matters. S/He no longer serves the public, the public serves her/him. It becomes a mockery of death and mourning with cameras and newsprint.

[rmbrad]

Last night during the President's news conference, a reporter asked if the President plans to recind the order not to show flag draped coffins on TV of our fallen heros returning home.

I was always against this policy. I understand this undermines an administrations attempts to garner support for a war, but these are our heros! They should be honored in plain view in our living rooms each night! Not hidden away from public view and treated as mere numbers! They deserve more than "Support Our Troop" bumper stickers as the only visible reminder of their sacrifice. The should be at the forefront of our thoughts before we sit down to dinner in our homes.

I am not going to read through all of the other replies before I answer your question. I lived through watching the Flag Draped coffins being shown coming home every night during the Viet Nam War. I can tell you that this was very difficult for me since I had many friends in this war, and didn't know if I was seeing one of my friends coming home. I can't even think what the family of people that had Son's "in country" were going through on a daily basis watching this nightly vision of these kids coming home. Were they seeing the Flag draped coffin of their Son being returned to home soil?

I have had dinner with many of the family members that had family in these conflicts. I know that they watched the nightly News just so they might get a glimps of their Loved ones. Yes they were eating dinner, but they were focused like a lazer on the T.V. screen in hopes that they would see their Son standing tall. They also searched every image of an injured or dead Soldier dreading that they might see something they could identify.

I don't know if you have ever had a loved one that was killed in an accident, or murdered in an incident that got local news coverage. I do know that the News media seems to get on scene before the Emergancy Services. How would you feel if you were watching the news at noon, and discovered that you had just lost your Mom or Dad, Wife, Brother, or Child? I am sure that you would be shocked, and once the shock ended, you would start asking yourself why the News media had to show the place where they died, and the coronor taking away the body? I am also sure that every time you saw the News media doing this to another family, you would remember the loss of your loved one.

The Public has the right to know what is taking place, and the News media does a very good job of reporting this. I think you would have a problem watching the Coroner remove the body of your Mom, and I think you might understand why the families of these "Fallen Heros" might have a problem watching the "flagged draped" coffins returning home on a nightly basis.

[claytonreyes]

Every night when I say my prayers I thank God for the Brave men and women that have given their lives for this country. I wear the uniform myself, and I hold the death of our soliders sailors marines and airmen as a SACRED sacrifice for this country and should be treated the same. The media has a way of sticking their noses into things and exploiting them for ratings purposes. If the media wants to report on fallen heroes let them report on who these people were while they were alive. Keep the cameras out.

[USAF Vet]

The Air Force Association, of which I am a member after 28 years of service, and I do not support media coverage of flag draped coffins returning from overseas. As a veteran, with a daughter in the military, I would not want my coffin, nor my daughters, filmed, photographed or otherwise recorded. We who serve do so as a personal choice...not to be used by the media, politicians of either party and most importantly, by our enemies, as propoganda for anti-war or anti-American movements. We serve with honor, we return with honor and dignity, which does not include a media blitz every time a C-5 or C-17 lands and flag draped coffins are taken off. You know as well as I do that these pictures would end up on T shirts, posters, in books and as part of political campaigns to end the war. Look at CNN...they carried the total number of Americans killed in the war on thier banner every day, and overtly supported the liberal push to run from Iraq. Those numbers were an exploitation of the sacrifices of our fallen warriors. It would only get worse if put on film.

[punkrocker27ka]

if we showed the true human cost of war, people would think twice before supporting a war....

[RWReaganfan]

if we showed the true human cost of war, people would think twice before supporting a war....

How do you show the true human cost of NOT fighting a war?

People should support a war if it is in the interest of freedom for anyone!

[punkrocker27ka]

How do you show the true human cost of NOT fighting a war?

People should support a war if it is in the interest of freedom for anyone!

Nope. The idea that war is always the solution is preposterous. Might I refer you to Gandhi who defeated the British Empire using nonviolence and noncooperation. India has now gone to be the largest democracy on the planet and is one of the most beautiful places in the world

[FirmHand135]

I am still amazed at how showing a flag drapped casket can cause harm to anyone. What it will do is provoke thought and reaction. Iis it that which the right is trying to stifle? Eerytime an office is kllled in the US, the funerals are always carried in depth by the local media. Whenever there is a fatality on the streets, your informed about it and often times have video of a body covered by a sheet...often times before the family is even informed. They just say the identity is being withheld pending notification of family.
Where as the pictures in question, the families have long since known. It isn't a shock, its respectfull. There is no way to lay any identity to any of the fallen. What your afraid of is the fact that those on the nightly news will see it and have those thoughts of questions. If your cause, your opinions are so weak that they can't stand the scrutiny, then you have far worse problems than the pictures.

[rhet 2]

I am still amazed at how showing a flag drapped casket can cause harm to anyone. What it will do is provoke thought and reaction. Iis it that which the right is trying to stifle? Eerytime an office is kllled in the US, the funerals are always carried in depth by the local media. Whenever there is a fatality on the streets, your informed about it and often times have video of a body covered by a sheet...often times before the family is even informed. They just say the identity is being withheld pending notification of family.
Where as the pictures in question, the families have long since known. It isn't a shock, its respectfull. There is no way to lay any identity to any of the fallen. What your afraid of is the fact that those on the nightly news will see it and have those thoughts of questions. If your cause, your opinions are so weak that they can't stand the scrutiny, then you have far worse problems than the pictures.

They will NOT turn my grief and pain, my dead, into a damned political ad campaign for their own faction.

Simple enough for you?

Cite the stats, okay.

Emotionalize and propagandize real grief felt by real people in order to con stupid insensitive egotistical dumb ass fools into handing them political power in Washington DC, they become scum of the earth, not fit for membership in the human race.

In case you missed the point the first time around.

Need a different explanation to further explain the scorn and hatred inherent in turning a coffin into a political party campaign ad?

[PuckHappy]

if we showed the true human cost of war, people would think twice before supporting a war....

Maybe we should show the Towers being hit planes flown by the terrorists everyday as a way to remind us that there really are people that want to harm us here on this continent.

[rmbrad]

Every night when I say my prayers I thank God for the Brave men and women that have given their lives for this country. I wear the uniform myself, and I hold the death of our soliders sailors marines and airmen as a SACRED sacrifice for this country and should be treated the same. The media has a way of sticking their noses into things and exploiting them for ratings purposes. If the media wants to report on fallen heroes let them report on who these people were while they were alive. Keep the cameras out.

I have looked for the rest of this, but can't find it. There is a quote that appears at the end of America's Most Wanted, when they honor Police Officers that have been killed in the line of duty. The partial quote is: "It is not how they died, but how they lived that makes them heros". I did not serve in the Military, but spent my life as a Police Officer and Firefighter/EMT. I think this quote is appropriet for all of our "Fallen Hero's".

[Scott Adie]

I am still amazed at how showing a flag drapped casket can cause harm to anyone. What it will do is provoke thought and reaction. Iis it that which the right is trying to stifle? Eerytime an office is kllled in the US, the funerals are always carried in depth by the local media. Whenever there is a fatality on the streets, your informed about it and often times have video of a body covered by a sheet...often times before the family is even informed. They just say the identity is being withheld pending notification of family.
Where as the pictures in question, the families have long since known. It isn't a shock, its respectfull. There is no way to lay any identity to any of the fallen. What your afraid of is the fact that those on the nightly news will see it and have those thoughts of questions. If your cause, your opinions are so weak that they can't stand the scrutiny, then you have far worse problems than the pictures.

For some of us who served, those are gut wrenching, tear jerking, nightmare evoking memories that are sometimes just too much to bear. As a Vietnam vet, it's zippered black plastic body bags that do that. For our current vets it just may be flag draped coffins evoke the same unresolvable memories.

[PuckHappy]

Three years ago I was working a late Saturday evening. I work for an airline at the local airport. I was working out at the gates when we noticed a Delta flight land and then a police escort brought it to the gate.
A family of a Father, Mother, sister and brother came off the aircraft was escorted outside to the tarmac.
The airport terminal came to a standstill. Right hands raised to the onlookers hearts, tears streamed down our faces.
With the help of the Tug, a flag draped coffin came out the belly of the aircraft and was loaded into a waiting hearse.

The person in this coffin was a stranger to everyone in that airport terminal that evening. But we all were very grateful for his brave service to our country.
After seeing it in person. I do not believe that a camera crew would ever do justice to our brave men and women.

May God Bless EVERY family that might ever have to go through what I witnessed that night.
Thank you for raising fine men and women.

[ArmyMAJretired]

I am still amazed at how showing a flag drapped casket can cause harm to anyone. What it will do is provoke thought and reaction. Iis it that which the right is trying to stifle? Eerytime an office is kllled in the US, the funerals are always carried in depth by the local media. Whenever there is a fatality on the streets, your informed about it and often times have video of a body covered by a sheet...often times before the family is even informed. They just say the identity is being withheld pending notification of family.
Where as the pictures in question, the families have long since known. It isn't a shock, its respectfull. There is no way to lay any identity to any of the fallen. What your afraid of is the fact that those on the nightly news will see it and have those thoughts of questions. If your cause, your opinions are so weak that they can't stand the scrutiny, then you have far worse problems than the pictures.


Maybe you should enlist and gain some credibility on the subject.

The day the press shows every aborted fetus, every dead AIDS victim, every American killed by an illegal alien is the day I might consider letting the left use those that made the ultimate sacrifice as political theather!

Go to a Code Pink display where they set up boots or crosses if you want a freak show.

JMHO

[ArmyMAJretired]

if we showed the true human cost of war, people would think twice before supporting a war....

Nah, just till the polls changed.

You do realize the dems were big hawks till the winds shifted.

[Sneaky SF Dude]

if we showed the true human cost of war, people would think twice before supporting a war....

And you think you do?

[FirmHand135]

Nobody has still touched the argument. Fact is military funerals are covered by the press just like local law enforcement and firefighters. As they should be. What you keep crying about is the pictures being used for a propaganda purpose. Fine then, just have the same stance on other pictures of the military. They should never be used for a progaganda purpose then. Be consistent in your argument!
For those that have lost, I am sorry. Its a high cost. The supreme cost. But that in mind, its still part of the argument, the cost, knowing and seeing the cost. Perhaps its a cost that others would not have to endure if they have all the information, if they have all the facts.
As to the major comments about me....if you don't like the message, then attack the messenger???
You don't know me. For the record I have served, I have an honorable discharge.
What I will say about you, from your ranger badge you so love to show....I always thought Ranger officers were suppose to lead from the front, by example. for shame!

[rhet 2]

I disagree. It is not either/or, it is both. It is meant to both honor the fallen AND remind us of the cost of war.

I do not feel we do either justice by simply reporting the number of dead on the evening news.

To me, I feel the nation has an obligation that it is avoiding. I know we are not going to agree on this. I just hope everyone, or at least most of you, who disagree with me understand that not everyone who wants media coverage is desiring it for anti-war propaganda purposes.

NUTS!

Try showing the cost of NOT WAR, instead.

Like Darfur -- a total wasteland full of the most destroyed, suppressed, and miserable human beings on earth BECAUSE WE REFUSE TO STOP THE NIGHTMARE.

Like Hussein's Iraq -- TWENTY YEARS to exhume and rebury the hundreds of thousands dead because WE REFUSED to wage war to stop the horror.

How many hundreds of thousands of deaths did Stalin cause BECAUSE WE REFUSED to wage war?

How many hundreds of thousands of deaths did Hitler cause BECAUSE WE REFUSED to stop him, too?

How many hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese were slaughtered BECAUSE OF HIPPIE ANTIWAR MYTHOLOGIES, huh?

How many hundreds of thousands of Asians have been slaughtered because HIPPIE MYTHOBURGER ADDICTS refused to confront and stop that brutality, huh?

Show the coffins of the Victims of COWARDICE AND SELFISH REFUSAL to confront and stop evil men from indulging in their evil lust for absolute POWER! at any cost, their lust for blood and guts and screams of human agony.

When will Hippies EVER accept the reality of psychopathic LUST FOR DEATH and realize that the world will NEVER sing their sweet little kumbaya "teach the world to sing" harmonies of eternal NUTTY MYTHOLOGIES?

People CAN be nice -- when they have a reason to.

And people CAN be vicious little monsters -- when they want to.

Peace and human prosperity and human equality is possible ONLY when somebody is able and willing to give sociopathic bullies damned good cause to control their damned lusts for human blood and guts and agony and at least pretend to be nice.

Just once I wish the Hippies would freaking be honest: I refuse to fight because I don't give a **** about what happens to others as long as you leave me alone to wallow in my stupid self-indulgent LITTLE LOST BOYS fantasy world.

GROW UP, Hippies. The world is NOT a Walt Disney world full of flaky pirates and ticking crocodiles. It is full of very evil and very psychotic killers who LOVE the sight of human blood and delight in the sound of tortured victims of their own POWER!

And war is the ONLY way to stop such brutality.

Cops wage war every single day -- and die -- to stop the evil bloodsuckers like Manson and Son of Sam and John Cooey and NAMBLA rapists.

Troops wage war every single day -- and die -- to stop the evil bloodsuckers like Hitler and Hussein and Mao and Stalin, when bloodsuckers manage to worm their way into POWER! over entire nations.

What makes both sets of WARRIORS noble and worthy of our respect is their WILLINGNESS to fight back and risk death to stop bloodsucking sociopathic insanities who delight in blood and guts and human agony.

And their flag draped coffins ARE OFF LIMITS for the ******** propaganda crap coming out of Peacenik Stooooooopids like Sheehan and her Pinkeesta Culture Tyrants who refuse to look bluntly, honestly, at the real world outside their dumb Walt Disney movies.

[FirmHand135]

As to Scott Adie point that the body bags bring horrible memories flooding back and perhaps the flag drapped coffins bring the similar memories today. It was those body bag pics, it was the war being brought home to the living room which spured americans to bring the war to a halt. Those pics are a very powerful message which the other side has no counter point too. If your message is right and factual, it will eventually win the argument. So they try to stifle the message.

[rhet 2]

As to Scott Adie point that the body bags bring horrible memories flooding back and perhaps the flag drapped coffins bring the similar memories today. It was those body bag pics, it was the war being brought home to the living room which spured americans to bring the war to a halt. Those pics are a very powerful message which the other side has no counter point too. If your message is right and factual, it will eventually win the argument. So they try to stifle the message.

Trouble is, the freaky Peaceniks REFUSED to show the piles of bodies in Vietnam those troops died trying to save.

We lost too damned many troops stupidly because ignoramuses like McNamara refused to live in the real world and yielded to Peacenik Mythology spins

But nothing like the huge piles of human bodies the Peaceniks ignored in Vietnam.

If you want to show the REALITY of war, you'd also show the broken bleeding bodies of Iraqi kids blown to hell and gone by the enemies -- show the numbers of Iraqi dead right beside the coffin of the guy who died trying to stop still more hundreds of thousands from suffering the same horror.

Show the CAUSE of that troop's death -- the aggression and nightmare brutality of islamic imperialists who have slaughtered hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands.

But Peaceniks NEVER tell the WHOLE truth -- because showing the dead kids doesn't help them destroy anti-Hippie culture.

[FirmHand135]

rhet2, I agree with you. Lets show all the information. lets show the dark side of everyones foreign policy.
It truely is sad what happened with those chemmical weapons in Iraq. I wonder where they got a good deal of those weapons in the first place.
That aside and not wishing to delve deeper here. I am going to have to say it is off topic and would be dis-respectful to go into it any further in this forum.

[ArmyMAJretired]

And you think you do?

Time to let them see how the sausage is made!

[ArmyMAJretired]

Nobody has still touched the argument. Fact is military funerals are covered by the press just like local law enforcement and firefighters. As they should be. What you keep crying about is the pictures being used for a propaganda purpose. Fine then, just have the same stance on other pictures of the military. They should never be used for a progaganda purpose then. Be consistent in your argument!
For those that have lost, I am sorry. Its a high cost. The supreme cost. But that in mind, its still part of the argument, the cost, knowing and seeing the cost. Perhaps its a cost that others would not have to endure if they have all the information, if they have all the facts.
As to the major comments about me....if you don't like the message, then attack the messenger???
You don't know me. For the record I have served, I have an honorable discharge.
What I will say about you, from your ranger badge you so love to show....I always thought Ranger officers were suppose to lead from the front, by example. for shame!

I am in shock. I don't know any veteran that would want the flag draped coffins being off loaded from a plane to be used as a hammer against the fallen soldiers mission.

I must be getting old.

BTW, I lead from the front, how much combat time do you have?

Are you a member of IVAW?

I liked your comment

Perhaps its a cost that others would not have to endure if they have all the information, if they have all the facts.

Maybe these guys can answer your question:


"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
-- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
-- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
-- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

[rhet 2]

rhet2, I agree with you. Lets show all the information. lets show the dark side of everyones foreign policy.
It truely is sad what happened with those chemmical weapons in Iraq. I wonder where they got a good deal of those weapons in the first place.
That aside and not wishing to delve deeper here. I am going to have to say it is off topic and would be dis-respectful to go into it any further in this forum.

And you still don't get it, not in the least.

It doesn't take hi-tech to blow hell out of a baby's body. Many of Hussein's victims were infants BURIED ALIVE beside their dead MOTHERS -- women slaughtered with a single old-fashioned cheap bullet in the back of their skulls.

Crap like meat grinders used to SLOWLY run a living conscious human being through OLD FASHIONED knives to slice and dice and ****ter bit by bit by bit -- while his bastards stood grinning and slobbering, enjoying the screams of agony and Hussein and his two beastly sons grinned at the proof of their POWER! to do any damned thing they pleased for the sheer FUN of it.

Ditto the nightmare horrors occurring in Darfur, now spread to Chad, Algeria, Nigeria, and Kenya.

It doesn't take WMDs to murder hundreds of thousands of helpless human beings -- it only takes the WILL to do it -- and fools to sit back and do nothing while the world disintegrates into brutality and cruelty Neanderthals would never have committed.

The price of NOT WAR is a sickening descent into total depravity and brutality. THAT is what Peaceniks have caused with their obstinate and determined refusal to confront and deal with REALITY, in their addiction to soft, mushy, happy-happy materialist self-indulgence, wallowing in dumb ass romantic ficitons that ignore the harsh side of life, refusing to face the realities of psychotic brutalities DELIBERATELY FOSTERED in order to create tools for Tyrants and brutal, vicious, hardened insane killers to use to get absolute and total POWER over entire nations.

No one LIKES war except the criminally insane like Hussein.

But only total romantic fools living in Peter Pan fictions refuse to wage war when war is the only way to stop the criminally insane after they've gotten control over entire nations.

Our troops die for only two reasons:

1) they are NOT oathbreakers -- they do what they promised to do and die rather than betray their Brothers in Arms, rather than betray their own innocent dependents back home, die rather than betray the nation that sent them to war in the first place;

2) they hate criminally insane mass murdering thugs and weep over dead babies far more than the phony platitude spewing Peaceniks at home PRETEND to pity the troop, when they actually know damned little about why that MAN OF HONOR died.

I've buried my dead.

But I'm not a troop.

I never faced life or death situations like they do every single day.

I'm just humble enough to listen when the troops tell me who they are and why they die.

And loyal enough to take them at face value and HONOR THEIR DEVOTION TO DUTY for what it is -- MANHOOD in all its fullest power.

From that humility in listening to THEM tell me why they die and loyalty in giving them the chance to be MEN instead of cowering little selfish mice hiding in front of a tv screen comes RESPECT required to salute that coffin while it's being lowered into the ground, without false pity, without pretended tears, but with a heart aching to hear his voice just one more time, feel his arms around me pulling me tight and safe against his chest JUST ONE MORE TIME--

and with the respect required to stick my chin up and hold back the sobs and NOT HATE the selfish cruel politicalized bastards who scorn and denigrate everything he was, everything he died to achieve, everything that MADE HIM A MAN WORTH MY TRUST IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Get your damned political slogans off the graves we wives and mothers and sisters and daughters and fathers and brothers and sons cherish as the only thing we've got left of a MAN we know and cherish with all our hearts -- cherish enough to give him the FREEDOM to be a MAN worth loving in the first place -- cherish because we know WHY he took the risks he took, know why he died, and cherish the CAUSE for his sake, too.

Those who refuse to honor their cause, scorn their deaths.
Those who use our dead for their own sick disgusting political slime games, scorn our grief, spit on the HONOR of our dead.

Know nothings who PRETEND grief when they scorn the CAUSE are not welcome in MY cemetary. The Pinkeestas Freeks can keep their fake tears and phony tributes to themselves.

I know WHY my love volunteered for a second tour in Nam. I HONOR HIS CAUSE, because I honor his guts, his determination to do what he KNEW had to be done. And I honor the guts it took for him to do the RIGHT thing instead of taking the convenient soft self-indulgent mush-brained out he surely could have taken.

His CAUSE is an integral part of his death. And I want no political weasel sliming on either his CAUSE or his death by using his mother's grief and mine for their own sick socio-cultural dominance and control freak games.

[FirmHand135]

As you yourself so pointed out Armymaj...its not about respect for the soldiers, its about acomplishing the mission which is a politcol outcome. Thus your argument is about stifiling politcol dissent.
Being prior service and knowing numerous who were as well, some have my views and others do not. I would not profess to ever speak for the rest of the former military members. That would simply be ignorant of me. As such I take great exception when anyone with prior military tries to speak on my behalf expressing views which I don't support. So please retract your previous statement...your dead wrong!
Am I am member of any group, NO! I don't need a group to express my views and opinions.
I spoke of leading from the front as the first thing any good commander does is know the situation before engaging. You made a statement about me on 0 information. Very dangerous!

As to all the comments you posted. Yes, they made those comments. Yes, they were wrong. I do wonder what intel they were given. Something you and I will never know.
And as to comments.
How can those pictures possibly effect the mission as you and I both know that the former CIC stood on a carrier deck years ago in front of a mission accomplished banner.....so how can it effect the acomplished mission.
I also wonder how they knew he had all those chem weapons...do you suppose it was because we gave most of them to him..

[Crossriflesonblue]

Only the family of the dead have determinate "rights", anybody else may be referred to as being privileged only, privileged to be in the fallens presence and only with the families permission.....

[FirmHand135]

Agree if the soldier is known or the funneral. However I disagree if its an unidentified flag drapped casket.

[F_Rat-46]

I am in shock. I don't know any veteran that would want the flag draped coffins being off loaded from a plane to be used as a hammer against the fallen soldiers mission.

I must be getting old.

BTW, I lead from the front, how much combat time do you have?

Are you a member of IVAW?

I liked your comment



Maybe these guys can answer your question:


"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
-- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
-- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
-- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Good points, with these quotes. Too many people seem to forget what these Libs said leading up to the Iraq war. Fyi, I served in Viet Nam and saw the terrible consiquenses of the ant-war establishments antics. I watched many a flag-draped coffin being loaded on a C-41.

[rhet 2]

Good points, with these quotes. Too many people seem to forget what these Libs said leading up to the Iraq war. Fyi, I served in Viet Nam and saw the terrible consiquenses of the ant-war establishments antics. I watched many a flag-draped coffin being loaded on a C-41.

My fiance came home in one of those bags.

Thing is, he didn't DIE for a cause -- he LIVED AND FOUGHT for a cause -- a cause he truly believed in.

Most of us believed in that cause, ourselves -- until the media got through selling the cause for garbage, mind wiping us with fear and panic and selfishness -- for the glory and power of the PARTY BOSSES who sold our boys out.

Johnson, McNamara -- and mostly Cronkite -- have a hell of a lot of political treachery to answer for. Right along with John Kerry and Hanoi Jane.

[Crossriflesonblue]

Agree if the soldier is known or the funneral. However I disagree if its an unidentified flag drapped casket.

So if the names are not known they are due less respect, are due less honor...typical....what their families think about such photos means nothing and as long as there is no name on a fallens coffin the families have no rights....again typical shallow BS...

[FirmHand135]

The pcitures that are in question, please tell me in your non-shallow way how they were disrespectful. they were simply pictures showing flag drapped caskets, the military personal in the pics were affording the caskets proper respects.
Seems to me as though you Crossrifle want it both ways. You wish to use what pics of the military that suit your purpose but scream, slander and defame any who wish to use the pictures for their purposes. Kind of defeats everything the United States stands for. Interesting viewpoint!

[rhet 2]

The pcitures that are in question, please tell me in your non-shallow way how they were disrespectful. they were simply pictures showing flag drapped caskets, the military personal in the pics were affording the caskets proper respects.
Seems to me as though you Crossrifle want it both ways. You wish to use what pics of the military that suit your purpose but scream, slander and defame any who wish to use the pictures for their purposes. Kind of defeats everything the United States stands for. Interesting viewpoint!

Because they're attacking the Cause those men believed in enough to fight for with FALSE EMOTIONAL HYPE AND GOO that totally IGNORES the cause those men LIVED FOR.

Total emotionalized ******** with only one purpose: political party campaign ad -- destroy George Bush and conservativism by destroying the CAUSE our kids are putting their lives on the line to achieve.

PURE UNADULTERATED DEMOCRAT PSYCHOTIC LUST FOR THEIR OWN DAMNED PARTY POWER, regardless of how many helpless Iraqi kids they get slaughtered for their own sickening degraded cause.

[FirmHand135]

rhet2, your making the assumption that all that serve and have been killed and their families have the same values and beliefs as you. I seriously doubt that to be the case as so many protest against your cause, your politicol goal.
Now that I have gotten you, crossrifle and Armymaj to admit that you wish to stifle public thought, discussion and opposing viewpoints, the real reason for wanting the photos banned has also been brought forth...you admit that those pics could become problematic towards the accomplisment of your politcol goal. Your argument is clearer by the second but I think it flys in the face of what we have always fought for.....just my thoughts.

[rhet 2]

rhet2, your making the assumption that all that serve and have been killed and their families have the same values and beliefs as you. I seriously doubt that to be the case as so many protest against your cause, your politicol goal.
Now that I have gotten you, crossrifle and Armymaj to admit that you wish to stifle public thought, discussion and opposing viewpoints, the real reason for wanting the photos banned has also been brought forth...you admit that those pics could become problematic towards the accomplisment of your politcol goal. Your argument is clearer by the second but I think it flys in the face of what we have always fought for.....just my thoughts.

THIS IS NOT A DRAFT MILITARY -- it's ALL volunteer.

My nephew is on his third in Iraq -- because he KNOWS the agony of the Iraqi people and hates the Death Cult slaughtering them and slaughtering Americans with total dedication. He lives and fights to stop the slaughter of innocents.

As do MOST OF THE TROOPS

-- if you'd listen to the troops, instead of Democrat PARTY POWER election campaign LIES, you'd know that.

The media swine can keep their damned political party campaign activism off the troops -- they don't need to be turned into a cause celebre for Democrat Absolutism -- and neither do their families.

Go find some other cause for bashing hell out of opposition for Democrat Supremacy. This tactic of phony grief over our dead and wounded to empower the Twin Witches of Washington and Mr. Crime Lord of Chicago is cruel and vicious abuse of families, abuse of troops-- emotional and psychological TORTURE far worse than the crap lords accuse Bush of doing in Gitmo.

[FirmHand135]

rhet2, your 100% correct, this is an all volunteer military! Just like America, the make up of the military is very diverse and their reasons for joining are just as diverse! Some do so out of patriotic values, others for the education and or vocational teaching, do to the economy lots are now even enlisting for the pay check!
So do you have a reason the photos should not be used other than a politicol reason? If so what is the basis of the reasoning?

[Crossriflesonblue]

The pcitures that are in question, please tell me in your non-shallow way how they were disrespectful. they were simply pictures showing flag drapped caskets, the military personal in the pics were affording the caskets proper respects.
Seems to me as though you Crossrifle want it both ways. You wish to use what pics of the military that suit your purpose but scream, slander and defame any who wish to use the pictures for their purposes. Kind of defeats everything the United States stands for. Interesting viewpoint!

No they aren't just simply flagged draped coffins...thats the problem with your point of view....they are much more than that to their families and comrades....they aren't objects to play political football with....by anybody....

[FirmHand135]

Crossrifles, then simply agree that all military should be off limits from ALL politicol discussion period. Admit that the former CIC was in grave error when he gave his imfamous speech aboard the aircraft carrier, so on and so forth.
As I have said, if there is any hint of the identity then there should be no photos. I fail to see the dis-respect at viewing a picture of a fallen soldiers flag drapped casket. And as I pointed out, just about all the funnerals are covered in some form from the local media.
What of the families that were greatfull for those pictures? Who are you to deny them that?

[Crossriflesonblue]

Crossrifles, then simply agree that all military should be off limits from ALL politicol discussion period. Admit that the former CIC was in grave error when he gave his imfamous speech aboard the aircraft carrier, so on and so forth.
As I have said, if there is any hint of the identity then there should be no photos. I fail to see the dis-respect at viewing a picture of a fallen soldiers flag drapped casket. And as I pointed out, just about all the funnerals are covered in some form from the local media.
What of the families that were greatfull for those pictures? Who are you to deny them that?

What?......are you nuts?....there is no correlation between the honor and respect due the fallen and their families....and some speech the President gives that offends some political hacks....

Those families that want their loved one photographed have ample opportunity......there is no need for them to make that decision for families of the others though who don't want any part of politicizing the fallen....

[FirmHand135]

Crossrifles, please refrain from the negative name calling.
And crossedrifle, you and I simply dis-agree. I believe that those photos belong in the public domain. I believe Americans need to fully know and understand the cost of war, sorry but we are a visuial soceity and sometimes we just need to see it! I don't believe the familys are being injured by showing those photos.
perhaps, just perhaps, if we would have had more real public debate over the war, then perhaps we might not have this issue to argue over. Respectful debate is always a healthy thing!

[USMCmom]

Crossrifles, please refrain from the negative name calling.
And crossedrifle, you and I simply dis-agree. I believe that those photos belong in the public domain. I believe Americans need to fully know and understand the cost of war, sorry but we are a visuial soceity and sometimes we just need to see it! I don't believe the familys are being injured by showing those photos.
perhaps, just perhaps, if we would have had more real public debate over the war, then perhaps we might not have this issue to argue over. Respectful debate is always a healthy thing!

Firm hand...I agree that our society is a visual society and sometimes we need to just see it! However, in my mind the "it" would be the garbage bags filled with 4000 aborted babies! That is what is aborted almost daily...

When comparing the two I have to wonder what would really outrage the American people those innocent dead babies being destroyed and thrown out like dirty bathwater or our "Fallen Heroes" coming home after fighting for the our freedom to rest in peace...

Respectful debate is what makes us a great country...mocking those who died fighting for freedom & against oppression does not!!!

[FirmHand135]

USMCmom,
abortion and a war are two seperate issues! They need to be discussed seperatly. But please feel free to tell me how the photo made a mockery of the fallen? Have you seen the photos? What about them was dis-respectfull? Please be specific. I am willing to listen.

[USMCmom]

USMCmom,
abortion and a war are two seperate issues! They need to be discussed seperatly. But please feel free to tell me how the photo made a mockery of the fallen? Have you seen the photos? What about them was dis-respectfull? Please be specific. I am willing to listen.

First of all I do not need to see a photo of a coffin to show my respect! I do that by telling our Soldiers, Veterans and families "thank you" for their service and for their sacrifice!

The anti-war protestors who stood outside of Walter Reed Hospital mocking the deaths of an American Soldiers are just an example of those who seek to use our Soldiers (dead or alive) for political agendas!!!
Kevin Pannell, who was recently treated at Walter Reed and had both legs amputated after an ambush grenade attack near Baghdad in 2004, considers the presence of the anti-war protesters in front of the hospital "distasteful."
When he was a patient at the hospital, Pannell said he initially tried to ignore the anti-war activists camped out in front of Walter Reed, until witnessing something that enraged him.
"We went by there one day and I drove by and [the anti-war protesters] had a bunch of flag-draped coffins laid out on the sidewalk. That, I thought, was probably the most distasteful thing I had ever seen. Ever," Pannell, a member of the Army's First Cavalry Division, told Cybercast News Service.
"You know that 95 percent of the guys in the hospital bed lost guys whenever they got hurt and survivors' guilt is the worst thing you can deal with," Pannell said, adding that other veterans recovering from wounds at Walter Reed share his resentment for the anti-war protesters.
http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/2005/08/dissecting_code.html

For Our Troops
Help FOT to stop protests at military funerals.
Background:
Some groups have stooped to an ultimate low by picketing and protesting at military funerals. The opinions of one such group is that United States soldiers are dying in Iraq because they fight for a country that tolerates homosexuality. This group stands outside the funerals of fallen heroes brandishing signs that read, "Thank God for dead soldiers" and "Thank God for IED's" and other horrifying statements.
Legislation:
Several states including Maryland have proposed or passed legislation to restrict this sort of protests. The legislation usually restricts time and proximity of the protests. House Bill 850, presented by Delegate Mary-Dulany James of Maryland and signed into law in May of 2006 for example, limits the protestors to a distance of 500 feet from the funeral service and requires that the protest cease for the duration of an hour before and after the funeral service. Violators of these restrictions will face a penalty not to exceed 90 days in jail and a $1000 fine. This bill passed the house by a vote of 132-3 and passed in the state Senate my a staggering majority vote on Tuesday April 4, 2006. The following links provide additional information on HB 850.
Testimony by LTC William R. Everett (http://www.forourtroops.net/Files/Mary-Dulaney%20James%20Legislation/Everett%20Testimony%20HB%20850.doc), United States Army, has assisted with the presentation of soldier remains to the families of fallen heroes.
Testimony by Mark T. Krause (http://www.forourtroops.net/Files/Mary-Dulaney%20James%20Legislation/HB850-Mark%20KrauseTestimony.doc), Uncle of LCPL Matthew Snyder who was killed in Iraq and whose funeral was targeted by the WBC.
Presentation of House Bill 850 (http://www.forourtroops.net/Files/Mary-Dulaney%20James%20Legislation/HB%20850-MDJ%20testimony.doc)
Image (http://www.forourtroops.net/Files/Mary-Dulaney%20James%20Legislation/HB850.jpg) of Delegate Mary-Dulany James with several Veterans supporting HB850
Congressman Mike Rogers of Michigan's 8th district proposed legislation at the federal level which was signed into law on Memorial Day, 2006. The Respect for Fallen Heros Act restricts protestors to 500 feet or more from any funeral service held at a National Cemetery and requires that protests cease for the duration of one hour before and one hour after the service.

What FOT Has Done to Help:
On March 27, 2006, FOT was invited by the office of Congressman Roscoe Bartlett, (Maryland 6th district) to give a presentation for what we feel would be acceptable legislation. As a result Congressman Bartlett pledged co-sponsorship of Congressman Rodgers' SB0882. Congressman Bartlett has also co-sponsored H.RES.731, a resolution to honor the Patriot Guard. On the same date, FOT also met with representatives from Congressman Mike Rodgers' office and Maryland Senator Barbara Mikulski's office.
In May of 2006 FOT was invited by Delegate Mary-Dulany James to the signing of House Bill 850 with Governor Ehrlich in Annapolis . A picture of the bill signing may be viewed on our Photo Gallery page.
http://www.forourtroops.net/funeral_protest.htm


It is the actions of these lunatic protestors that has created this desire to protect our "Fallen Soldiers" as well as their loved ones. If the MSM could be trusted to respectfully honor these "Soldiers" as they come home to rest in peace...I would certainly be all for it! But that still does not mean that this decision should be ours but ultimately this decision should fall to the Soldiers.


Before they ship out they should be given the option of having their caskets photographed should the unthinkable happen. You and I can debate this until the end of time...however as the proud mom of a US Marine I can say with complete honesty that neither my son nor I are in favor of photographing the caskets. I have seen photo's when I was younger...but that was when these "Heroes" were treated as national treasures, now they are sometimes treated as killers who were just "air-raiding villages and killing civilians!"

The reason that I mentioned abortion is because the protestors (this includes the MSM & Code Pink) who have gotten this backwards...they are willing to protest what they call an "illegal and immoral" war with Iraq. Then they turn around and protest because they believe that it is a woman's right to destroy an unborn baby! :wall:

If people feel so strongly about respecting our Soldiers then
go to a funeral, attend a tribute to our Veterans, donate your time and when your day is done - get down on your knees and thank "God" for each and everyone of these brave men & women who volunteered to protect your home, your family and your "Freedom!"

[FirmHand135]

USMCmom, your right we do have different schools of thought.
I will say that I support the bill that would limit the protest at funerals. Everybody deserves that respect. I don't condone what they do in the slightest. And Walter Reed, they are not allowed on Govt property so they should not be that much of a distraction.
As for the MSM and Code Pink, I am sorry but I defend their right to speech just as I defend Rush Limbaugh and Hannitys right to speech. When you start limiting the speech your heading for trouble. Of course there are always reasonable limits to everything.

[FirmHand135]

I just pulled up you tube to get a refresher on the pics thinking I might find something unexpected, ugly, dis-respectfull of our fallen troops. Instead, I find several videos as tributes to the fallen using those exact same photos that you have been ranting about. And the comments posted by views were for the most part very positive, very supportive.
So in other words, as I guessed before....you want the right to use what you want to when you want and also the right to stifle the views, speech and thoughts of the those who politicoly oppose you. I guess thats your idea of freedom, not mine!

By all means..check out the viedo..its good.....youtube.com search Military thank you

[savagemic]

As long as the flag draped coffins are photographed or video taped for respectful means, I don't have a problem. Unfortunately, there will always be some diaper stained phlegm wad who wants to use them for his/her disrespectful agendas. Ignore these at all costs and respect the men and women who have given their lives to fight against our enemies.

[savagemic]

USMCmom, your right we do have different schools of thought.
I will say that I support the bill that would limit the protest at funerals. Everybody deserves that respect. I don't condone what they do in the slightest. And Walter Reed, they are not allowed on Govt property so they should not be that much of a distraction.
As for the MSM and Code Pink, I am sorry but I defend their right to speech just as I defend Rush Limbaugh and Hannitys right to speech. When you start limiting the speech your heading for trouble. Of course there are always reasonable limits to everything.

I feel that any puke stain that protests at a soldier's funeral should be rounded up and dropped onto the front line. Let them walk some distance in a soldiers boots for once instead of relying on the words from some Liberal ass hats who smoked pot while attending Berkley.

[rhet 2]

rhet2, your 100% correct, this is an all volunteer military! Just like America, the make up of the military is very diverse and their reasons for joining are just as diverse! Some do so out of patriotic values, others for the education and or vocational teaching, do to the economy lots are now even enlisting for the pay check!
So do you have a reason the photos should not be used other than a politicol reason? If so what is the basis of the reasoning?

My grief is nobody's business except those who share my grief honestly and sincerely, grieving as I do.

It's sure as hell NOT some damned political power mongering ape's business.

Like Phelps and the Westboro vermin using military funerals to protest homosexuality. How blasted cruel and anti-social and downright hateful and DISRESPECTFUL can somebody get?

Same damned thrice-accursed sociopathic ******** as using flag draped coffins to protest the war.

Troops live for a cause, fight for a cause, and risk death for a cause.

DO NOT use their bodies as hype and goo garbage to assault the cause they died for.

Argue about the cause using LOGIC and REASON -- but do NOT use the grief of so great a price to EMOTIONALIZE AND SCREW THE HELL out of the debate over whether or not the cause is worth the price.

If the media were to show the coffins NEXT TO the dead and bleeding bodies of the civilians our children died to protect -- hundreds of thousands of helpless Iraqi innocents, dead because of brutality and cruelty of unimaginable proportions -- that would, indeed, show the angst, the torment of war.

But that's not what Cronkite and his bastard heirs in the media do, is it? They gush and goo and make yammer mouth HYPOCRIT noises about troop deaths in order to bash hell out of the CAUSE our people live, fight, and die for -- IN DELIBERATE MISREPRESENTATION AND FALSEHOOD for the sake of the absolute power of the liberal aristocracy of hate and intolerance.

And THAT ****es me off. Big time.

MSM and the Pinkos and the rest of the Peace Freaks might just as well have planted the IEDs themselves as to so scorn and abuse and MISUSE human grief to serve their thrice-damned psychotic lusts for supreme monocultural tyranny.

If they're going to show the price, then they can damned well show the cause, too.

[Marshall]

A funeral is a private matter that can only be made part of the public domain by consent of the family. If you obtain that permission, no problem. Otherwise, protest should be banned from the premises. Protests at a funeral, like burning a flag in front of veterans, is more akin to inciting a riot and not protected speech.

[FirmHand135]

rhet2,
If I understand you correctly you don't want the fallen to be used in any way shape or form for the discussion of the politicol agenda\goal. I take it by that you also mean the conservative\right using similar inferences to say...because of them, we need to honor them by finishing the job. I take it that you would also feel that out of bounds??

People have a right to protest....and do on both sides. People have a right to be heard!

[Adlerian Thinker]

rhet2,
If I understand you correctly you don't want the fallen to be used in any way shape or form for the discussion of the politicol agenda\goal. I take it by that you also mean the conservative\right using similar inferences to say...because of them, we need to honor them by finishing the job. I take it that you would also feel that out of bounds??

People have a right to protest....and do on both sides. People have a right to be heard!

You have no right to be heard, only a right to speak your mind.

Protecting the fallen from the excesses of others is vastly different from the "inferences" of honoring them by finishing the job.

If you cannot see that, then you are not worth having a discussion with.

[FirmHand135]

You have no right to be heard, only a right to speak your mind.

Protecting the fallen from the excesses of others is vastly different from the "inferences" of honoring them by finishing the job.

If you cannot see that, then you are not worth having a discussion with.

Your inferring the right that you know what is best. Your inferring you know what is excesses is and your only applying it to the others views, not your own! At least try to be somewhat less hypocritical. Present a case for your argument.

[rhet 2]

rhet2,
If I understand you correctly you don't want the fallen to be used in any way shape or form for the discussion of the politicol agenda\goal. I take it by that you also mean the conservative\right using similar inferences to say...because of them, we need to honor them by finishing the job. I take it that you would also feel that out of bounds??

People have a right to protest....and do on both sides. People have a right to be heard!

You're still not listening.

You can talk about the RAW NUMBERS all you want to -- and I'll counter with the countless hundreds of thousands slaughtered, tortured in hellish ways no one with an ounce of common human decency can bear to think about, the villages leveled to the ground and the children literally hauled off to the newly reopened slave markets of islamic brutality, etc. etc. etc.

But YOU WILL NOT BUILD POLITICAL PARTY ******** EMOTIONAL HYPE AND GOO BASH HELL OUT OF BUSH AND CONSERVATISM OUT OF HONEST GRIEF AND OUT OF THE HONOR OF THE FALLEN WHO PAID A HELL OF A PRICE TO STOP THE NIGHTMARES.

I stood up against the extreme right wing *******s who do this to bash hell out of liberals and their gay rights agenda -- and I'll stand against the extreme left *******s who try to do the same thing for their own damned political agendas.

STATS are NOT grief.

And by the hair on Washington's head, you WILL NOT POLITICIZE the funerals of honorable men who fight for the same cause my great grandfather fought for in the Carolinas -- common human decency and civilization itself.

Stats, yes.

Funerals, NO!

Those who lived for the cause, who laid their lives on the line for a cause they truly believe in -- keep your mitts off their last rites. Out of respect and compassion for those they leave behind in a world that is full of grief and misery and hateful disgusting necessities.

YOU WILL NOT MAKE THEIR GRIEF YOUR ANTI-WAR PIN UP POSTER OF THE MONTH.

You WILL show common human compassion and respect and allow them to cry in privacy without the thrice-damned sloganizing depersonalizing ideological hype and goo for the sake of your own political agendas -- and, as I cherish the Flag and the Republic for which it stands, so will the Westboro vermin and the equally degraded and dehumanized bitches of the Pinko Freaks.

Because we are EQUAL OPPORTUNITY bashers of incivility and vicious nasty hate-centered political warmongering fanatic freakazoid disrespect and hissing, snarling, backbiting nasty disintegration into brutality and TOTAL LOSS OF CIVILIZED COMMON DECENCY and COMPASSION in the Liberal/Conservative culture wars.

Keep the damned political wars out of the funerals of honorable human beings who devoted everything they had to a cause they believed in with all their hearts.

The thrice damned greedy gut vicious power pigs of the media WILL NOT destroy the right to privacy which those men in those coffins died to preserve for their grieving families.

DO NOT POLITICIZE THE FUNERAL RITES OF OUR TROOPS.

You can use the stats all you want -- but NOT their dead bodies and not their ****tered bodies, either -- and sure as hell not the tears of their families.

[FirmHand135]

rhet2,
I have heard you, I do understand that funerals should be off limits. I said I even support the bill you previously mentioned. All I am saying is simply apply the same MORAL CODE to your own rhetoric.
As for the sluaghter of all those villages, the discussing you keep trying to bring into this thread, which this thread is not about I might point out. Well you left out the brilliant strategy that some governments used in supplying arms to corrupt people and regiems. You left out the fact that we turn a blind eye to it when it suits our purpose. The list can go on and on so lets keep all of that distraction out of this thread and keep our eye on the topic.

[Crossriflesonblue]

You're still not listening.

You can talk about the RAW NUMBERS all you want to -- and I'll counter with the countless hundreds of thousands slaughtered, tortured in hellish ways no one with an ounce of common human decency can bear to think about, the villages leveled to the ground and the children literally hauled off to the newly reopened slave markets of islamic brutality, etc. etc. etc.

But YOU WILL NOT BUILD POLITICAL PARTY ******** EMOTIONAL HYPE AND GOO BASH HELL OUT OF BUSH AND CONSERVATISM OUT OF HONEST GRIEF AND OUT OF THE HONOR OF THE FALLEN WHO PAID A HELL OF A PRICE TO STOP THE NIGHTMARES.

I stood up against the extreme right wing *******s who do this to bash hell out of liberals and their gay rights agenda -- and I'll stand against the extreme left *******s who try to do the same thing for their own damned political agendas.

STATS are NOT grief.

And by the hair on Washington's head, you WILL NOT POLITICIZE the funerals of honorable men who fight for the same cause my great grandfather fought for in the Carolinas -- common human decency and civilization itself.

Stats, yes.

Funerals, NO!

Those who lived for the cause, who laid their lives on the line for a cause they truly believe in -- keep your mitts off their last rites. Out of respect and compassion for those they leave behind in a world that is full of grief and misery and hateful disgusting necessities.

YOU WILL NOT MAKE THEIR GRIEF YOUR ANTI-WAR PIN UP POSTER OF THE MONTH.

You WILL show common human compassion and respect and allow them to cry in privacy without the thrice-damned sloganizing depersonalizing ideological hype and goo for the sake of your own political agendas -- and, as I cherish the Flag and the Republic for which it stands, so will the Westboro vermin and the equally degraded and dehumanized bitches of the Pinko Freaks.

Because we are EQUAL OPPORTUNITY bashers of incivility and vicious nasty hate-centered political warmongering fanatic freakazoid disrespect and hissing, snarling, backbiting nasty disintegration into brutality and TOTAL LOSS OF CIVILIZED COMMON DECENCY and COMPASSION in the Liberal/Conservative culture wars.

Keep the damned political wars out of the funerals of honorable human beings who devoted everything they had to a cause they believed in with all their hearts.

The thrice damned greedy gut vicious power pigs of the media WILL NOT destroy the right to privacy which those men in those coffins died to preserve for their grieving families.

DO NOT POLITICIZE THE FUNERAL RITES OF OUR TROOPS.

You can use the stats all you want -- but NOT their dead bodies and not their ****tered bodies, either -- and sure as hell not the tears of their families.

Strange how liberals can twist the right of privacy to somehow include the right to abort a baby yet don't want that right extended to the families of the fallen...liberal tunnel vision....

[FirmHand135]

crossrifle,
please go back and point out where I was pro abortion. I have said repeatedly that this thread is about a specific topic and thus I have been sticking to it. Why is it when your unable to make a point, you try to distract, deflect or use name calling? Is your position that weak? Do you rely on others to form the opinion and not base it on your own thoughts after you have read the facts of the discussion?
As I mentioned before, go to youtube, check out a tribute to the troops....Military thank you..and there are several of the same ilk out there. Then talk to me, tell me how it is offensive to use the photos and to whom it offends.....

[rhet 2]

rhet2,
I have heard you, I do understand that funerals should be off limits. I said I even support the bill you previously mentioned. All I am saying is simply apply the same MORAL CODE to your own rhetoric.
As for the sluaghter of all those villages, the discussing you keep trying to bring into this thread, which this thread is not about I might point out. Well you left out the brilliant strategy that some governments used in supplying arms to corrupt people and regiems. You left out the fact that we turn a blind eye to it when it suits our purpose. The list can go on and on so lets keep all of that distraction out of this thread and keep our eye on the topic.

No, you are still not listening.

You CANNOT separate the cause for which the troops live and fight from the price they WILLINGLY pay for that cause.

Those villages ARE WHY THEY FIGHT -- and why too damned many come home in boxes.

But, if you exclude the hundreds of thousands of dead bodies and slaughered homesteads, then you denigrate and minimize and TOTALLY misrepresent what is inside those coffins.

That's not just a dead body .......... that's a HUMANIST who gave everything he had for the cause of human rights, a cause he truly believed in and dedicated his entire life to serving -- the right to life, to liberty from mass murdering thugs, and to some hope for building some half chance of prosperity and personal happiness.

And for love of his Brothers in Arms -- loyalty to the man riding beside him in that humvee. That, too -- LOYALTY to the Band of Brothers, loyalty that drives him to run toward the bullets instead of hunkering down behind a berm while his Brothers take the bullets FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY without his help in staying alive to fight tomorrow's battles.

To deny and ignore the cause they LIVED FOR is to denigrate and minimize the death, minimize and degrade the lives they lived.

Duty, honor, commitment -- and humanity itself -- that is what lies inside that flag draped box.

THAT NOBILITY OF SOUL is what the media scorns and denigrates when it uses that box for its damned socio-cultural wars against humanism itself.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Your inferring the right that you know what is best. Your inferring you know what is excesses is and your only applying it to the others views, not your own! At least try to be somewhat less hypocritical. Present a case for your argument.

I have inferred nothing. I have stated my case.

STOP TROLLING.

[FirmHand135]

rhet2, your very words already subjecate the fallen for your own personal politicol views and goals. I don't pretend to know why everyone who serves, their cause for doing so. I would caution you to hold a similar view as you clearly had no idea why I served or several of my friends. Suffice it to say....you have your beliefs and views and I will respect and honor them. Please respect mine!

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
I do belive that you did infer that and will stand by my statement!

Trolling...do tell oh wise and most noble one...the omnipitent one...

Are you irritated because you don't have a case but rather just rhetoric???

[rhet 2]

rhet2, your very words already subjecate the fallen for your own personal politicol views and goals. I don't pretend to know why everyone who serves, their cause for doing so. I would caution you to hold a similar view as you clearly had no idea why I served or several of my friends. Suffice it to say....you have your beliefs and views and I will respect and honor them. Please respect mine!

Guess what?

Cultural norms are NEVER absolute.

Cultural norms are ALWAYS arbitrary.

They depend on only one factor: how many people will accept and live with any one behavior by others.

Cannibalism -- eating human flesh -- is NOT an acceptable behavior for only one reason -- I WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT BEHAVIOR -- and enough people agree with me to make that behavior so grotesque as to merit official and public punishment of those who do accept it a BEHAVIORAL NORM for our culture -- a culture norm.

The only reason abortion is accepted is that enough people quit condemning that behavior, so that abortion became not an approved behavior but a tolerated behavior. But good luck getting people to approve and or tolerate driving a knife into the skull of a living breathing infant -- or FORCING an abortion on unwilling women -- or marketing the baby's dead body as a new type of meat -- all feasible culture norms, if and ONLY IF enough people accept such as a behavioral norm.

ALL culture is is a set of ARBITRARY behavior norms -- a set of behaviors generally tolerated and another set of behaviors generally rejected and condemned as unacceptable.

And I REFUSE TO ACCEPT PEACENIK PREDATION AND VICIOUS DIRTY POLITICAL CULTURE WAR GAMES based on the denigration and scorn for troops who LIVED FOR A CAUSE they truly believe in.

And, yeah, that does make me an arbitrary "old bitch" -- just because there are some behaviors that make me want to vomit in total disgust for the brutality and cruel indifference to the sanctity of human life and the NOBILITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL.

Hippies are welcome to wallow in whatever moral degradation they choose -- but, I WILL LABEL IT MORAL DEGRADATION because that is what I TRULY BELIEVE IT IS, just as disgusting and unacceptable a way to behave as I find the murder of babies and the sexual predations of NAMBLA and Holly Freaking Weirdos who can't keep their drug-stunned gonads under control and the cannibals of the Amazon to be.

And I'm damned sick and tired of Hippies imposing their own damned behavioral mandates on me -- because I find their behavior disgustingly destructive, abusive to others, and as sickening as the behaviors exhibited by rabid hyenas and vultures and predatory wolf packs feeding on dead meat.

I WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS BEHAVIOR NORM because I am personally disgusted by the willful predatory ******** nasty dog viciousness of the culture assault tactics of the damned Left.

Welcome to the realities of Culture War -- NO WE WILL NOT is actually more powerful than BUT YOU MUST ALLOW Hippie behavioral dictatorial arbitrary totalitarianist ********.

PEOPLE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE which behaviors they will accept and which ones they reject.

And I'm sick and tired of tolerating the Hippie demand for power to dictate socio-cultural norms to suit themselves.

Time for Hippies to submit to my dictates for a change.

And my fellow citizens can choose for themselves which of us they prefer to follow.

And you're free to try to destroy my own behavioral norms IF YOU CAN lure enough fools into letting YOU establish the norms instead of me and my own partners in Cultural Behavioral Norming.

If the media choose to engage in this sickening and disgusting political scam game, I WILL do everything in my power to stomp them into the ground and make sure they're the most hated and spat upon bunch of slimes in the United States. I'll do everything I can think of to persuade others to evaluate them as heartless brutal crude and vulgar little sociopathic swine.

And we'll see which of us the majority chooses to support -- which socio-cultural norm others prefer.

THAT is the essence of how all cultures evolve through time, how ALL morality is established and changed and reestablished and changed yet again. Has been since the first Mom and Pop crawled out of premordial slime to establish the first family unit, established the first and most basic culture of human existence.

I REJECT YOUR BEHAVIORAL NORMS because, in the cause of troop funeral rites, I DON'T LIKE THEM and refuse to tolerate such behavior. Just like I refuse to tolerate parents who murder their own kids by beating them to bloody mush when they refuse to eat their spinach.

[Mar2000]

How do you show the true human cost of NOT fighting a war?

People should support a war if it is in the interest of freedom for anyone!

That's UN's job - keep US out of 'the wars for freedom for anyone'.

[FirmHand135]

WOW rhet2, those are some radical things and groups you mentions. Not sure when they were brought up nor do I support them.
I do and will continue to respect the troops and support those that do as well. It is apparent that our views of what that is are vastly different thing. You don't trample on my rights and I won't trample on yours.
As for the culture war, it is one that I am looking forward to as it is clearly evident the results and havoc that is gained when left in the hands of the wrong\conservatives.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
I do belive that you did infer that and will stand by my statement!

Trolling...do tell oh wise and most noble one...the omnipitent one...

Are you irritated because you don't have a case but rather just rhetoric???

Rhetoric is the logical application of language to further a case.

Try again.

You can "believe" anything you want. What you have not done is back up your belief.

The folks who give their lives did so for their own reasons, not yours.

YOU don't have a say in whether their deaths are used for any purpose.

Deal with that, and stop trolling.

[FirmHand135]

thinker, your wrong! I have stated my position several times. The fact that we are a visual soceity, which rhet2 agreed with, I belive those photos belong in the public domain, under the conditions I have previously stated numerous times.
Unlike you, I have never professed to know what the soldiers reasonings were nor would I ever try. My point is that you use it for your purpose, your agenda when it suits you, thus the other side has the same claim.
by the way...I don't believe you know their intentions either...or are you professing to do as well???

Conservatisim=the arrogance of it all!

[rhet 2]

That's UN's job - keep US out of 'the wars for freedom for anyone'.

Sorry

I don't hand authority over and responsibility for MY life to anybody -- especially the totally degraded and pscho-sickos in control over the thrice damned UN.

And bastards like the freaks in the ME and China don't have say one in the well-being and security and prosperity of MY FAMILY.

My kids, my life -- and I'll damned well determine their health and well-being MY WAY, without the thrice-damned degraded and dehumanized French telling me what I can and cannot do.

Not even the slimes in my own City Hall have that responsibility and privilege.

I'm nobody's dependent little wimp. It's a small thing called Responsible Self-Actualized Adulthood.

So, I'll just chip in with my neighbors to help pay for a trained military defense force, called cops and firemen and EMS attendants -- AND TROOPS -- to take acquire the technical skills needed to be a tad more effective a shot than I am.

But, considering that I have no control over the thrice damned UN, like I do over the commonly supported LOCAL defense forces -- NO WAY I'm handing that kind of power over to the vicious beasts running around Slime Worlds like France and China and Sudan.

Given the backstabbing total FAILURE of the UN to do anything except make bad into total evil, I'm surprised you're willing to hand over sovereignty to the bastards.

But I am NOT willing to become a dependent of the Maoist slugs and the islamic culture brutes controlling the UN. NOT ACCEPTABLE proposal.

I'm nobody's child to be told what to do and how to live by a bunch of slugs who don't even live in the US and don't know a damned thing about our people, our values, our way of life -- especially since they obviously don't give a damn about our kids, having let too many kids around the world get slaughtered without the least bit of even verbal recrimination for the murderers like Hamas and Hezbollah and the Maoist predators of Beijing and the islamic fanatics dictating policies to the French weak mush brained terrorized nothings in Paris.

[Mar2000]

Sorry

I don't hand authority over and responsibility for MY life to anybody -- especially the totally degraded and pscho-sickos in control over the thrice damned UN.

And bastards like the freaks in the ME and China don't have say one in the well-being and security and prosperity of MY FAMILY.

My kids, my life -- and I'll damned well determine their health and well-being MY WAY, without the thrice-damned degraded and dehumanized French telling me what I can and cannot do.

Not even the slimes in my own City Hall have that responsibility and privilege.

I'm nobody's dependent little wimp. It's a small thing called Responsible Self-Actualized Adulthood.

So, I'll just chip in with my neighbors to help pay for a trained military defense force, called cops and firemen and EMS attendants -- AND TROOPS -- to take acquire the technical skills needed to be a tad more effective a shot than I am.

But, considering that I have no control over the thrice damned UN, like I do over the commonly supported LOCAL defense forces -- NO WAY I'm handing that kind of power over to the vicious beasts running around Slime Worlds like France and China and Sudan.

Given the backstabbing total FAILURE of the UN to do anything except make bad into total evil, I'm surprised you're willing to hand over sovereignty to the bastards.

But I am NOT willing to become a dependent of the Maoist slugs and the islamic culture brutes controlling the UN. NOT ACCEPTABLE proposal.

I'm nobody's child to be told what to do and how to live by a bunch of slugs who don't even live in the US and don't know a damned thing about our people, our values, our way of life -- especially since they obviously don't give a damn about our kids, having let too many kids around the world get slaughtered without the least bit of even verbal recrimination for the murderers like Hamas and Hezbollah and the Maoist predators of Beijing and the islamic fanatics dictating policies to the French weak mush brained terrorized nothings in Paris.

Do it your way, on your own dime. Or join other countries (not many to find that would sacrifice their wealth so irresponsibly).
Keep our country out of others' ****ups.

Unless you want our downfall to complete much sooner than it is likely to occur now.

[Silentnomore]

I cannot think of ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where this would be helpful. It is NOT the right of anyone to view those coffins except the loved ones.

I cannot even image the circus that would be in Dover if this was allowed.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker, your wrong! I have stated my position several times. The fact that we are a visual soceity, which rhet2 agreed with, I belive those photos belong in the public domain, under the conditions I have previously stated numerous times.
Unlike you, I have never professed to know what the soldiers reasonings were nor would I ever try. My point is that you use it for your purpose, your agenda when it suits you, thus the other side has the same claim.
by the way...I don't believe you know their intentions either...or are you professing to do as well???

Conservatisim=the arrogance of it all!

I am uninterested in your "beliefs."

You have no right to the dead. Period.

Served 12 years Infantry. I know their intentions better than you will ever know them.

[FirmHand135]

Silent,
it sparked debate. It brought home to America the real results of war in a visual sense. Please remember, up until the point that the pictures were taken, Americans had always seen their war dead. They had a visual understanding of the cost. This was the first time that occured where we as Americans were denied that. The Govt tried to make it an anti-septic war, much more tollerable to the American pallet. We have seen hundreds of viedos of the bombs droping on target, the after math it caused even some of the dead who were caught in the crossfire...I wonder who authorised their release of those photos, as well as the dead enemy. It simply brought it to realization.
I have no idea who took the pics, its my understanding they were taken in Germany, it caused no circus at dover.

[FirmHand135]

I am uninterested in your "beliefs."

You have no right to the dead. Period.

Served 12 years Infantry. I know their intentions better than you will ever know them.
Thats fine..you have your beliefs and I have mine. I do have the same right to express them as you do. I will not be silent!
Your time in the service gives you no better right than my time in the service as to the thoughts and views...NONE.

[Silentnomore]

Silent,
it sparked debate. It brought home to America the real results of war in a visual sense. Please remember, up until the point that the pictures were taken, Americans had always seen their war dead. They had a visual understanding of the cost. This was the first time that occured where we as Americans were denied that. The Govt tried to make it an anti-septic war, much more tollerable to the American pallet. We have seen hundreds of viedos of the bombs droping on target, the after math it caused even some of the dead who were caught in the crossfire...I wonder who authorised their release of those photos, as well as the dead enemy. It simply brought it to realization.
I have no idea who took the pics, its my understanding they were taken in Germany, it caused no circus at dover.


While I appreciate your desire to debate the issue, we may not be talking about the same thing.

What exactly does taking photos and video of coffins being unloaded at Dover Air Force Base have anything to do with pictures taken in Germany?

I assure you, if the press is allowed to be present and take photos and videos of flag draped coffins in Dover, there WILL be a circus. Media or protesters, there WILL be a circus.
The families of the victims have the right to that privacy and no one else. The fallen armed forces individuals deserve that respect.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Silent,
it sparked debate. It brought home to America the real results of war in a visual sense. Please remember, up until the point that the pictures were taken, Americans had always seen their war dead. They had a visual understanding of the cost. This was the first time that occured where we as Americans were denied that. The Govt tried to make it an anti-septic war, much more tollerable to the American pallet. We have seen hundreds of viedos of the bombs droping on target, the after math it caused even some of the dead who were caught in the crossfire...I wonder who authorised their release of those photos, as well as the dead enemy. It simply brought it to realization.
I have no idea who took the pics, its my understanding they were taken in Germany, it caused no circus at dover.

You support it because it fits your agenda. You do not support the war in Iraq.

I did not need to see the 18 flag draped coffins to know the cost of having a chicken **** CIC for Blackhawk Down in Somalia. It is because he turned tail and ran that Bin Laden was enboldened.

Where were you then?

Did you demand to see the coffins for these events?

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.


How about the victims of Waco, the cost of an out of control Attorney General?

I'm amused that you pick the victims of one conflict to focus in on. That's very interesting.

[FirmHand135]

yes silent, I had been directly referring to the pictures that have already been taken. As to pictures taken at Dover, I am not sure as to the thoughts on that as there would be a greater chance of the soldier being known, identified. Which I think would cause a harder time for the family. If not, then I am sure it would be a pool reporter\photog taking the pics. Very little if any disruption on the base. As to the outside the base demonstrations, I believe they are already on-going and that is a seperate issue.
Thank you for your thought in your response.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Does anyone know why the press was censored in WWII?

Hint, they wanted us to win.

Remember the good old days when guys like earnie Pyle and Edward R Murrow actually rooted for our mission?

Just damn.

[FirmHand135]

Armymaj,
Your damn right I support it, your damn right I have been against the war, always have. Even when it was unpopular to do so. I always thought the Dems who went along to get along were wrong. Any war that is an optional war is one you better think long and hard on before you enter it. War is not to be taken lightly, it has a high cost, both monetarily and human. Being a former Army officer I would have thought you would have taken the same view. After all, the lives in question are the ones under your command. I hope to god you took that very seriously!

Yes we did see the flag drapped coffins as they returned to the states, saw it reported live in fact. As you said about the other events, I do believe that in most cases they were reported on the news.
The victims of Waco are not nor should they be involved in this discussion but since you mentioned it, yes they were shown. Do you have any other points? Would be happy to answer them.

I didn't pick this conflict, your former goverment picked this conflict to stifle the dissent. The former CIC and sec of Def were the ones who limited it, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER...EVER EVER EVER.
That should send a chill down your spine!

[FirmHand135]

Accomplish the mission Armymaj???? But your former CIC stood on the carrier deck and proclaimed it was MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

and for the record, WWII was reported on in the sense that the struggles of the GI in the trenches were shown, showin in spades. Not hidden. Only thing was it took some time, it wasn't immediate as information is today.

In additon, what your referring to was WWII, where we were attacked by Japan. Have searched long and hard and have yet to find where Iraq attacked the United States...can you tell me the date and place this occured??

[Crossriflesonblue]

Silent,
it sparked debate. It brought home to America the real results of war in a visual sense. Please remember, up until the point that the pictures were taken, Americans had always seen their war dead. They had a visual understanding of the cost. This was the first time that occured where we as Americans were denied that. The Govt tried to make it an anti-septic war, much more tollerable to the American pallet. We have seen hundreds of viedos of the bombs droping on target, the after math it caused even some of the dead who were caught in the crossfire...I wonder who authorised their release of those photos, as well as the dead enemy. It simply brought it to realization.
I have no idea who took the pics, its my understanding they were taken in Germany, it caused no circus at dover.

What a load, Roosevelt undersrtood the effects of day after day of WWII war deaths in America papers and Censored or rationed the news in the interests of the country and the families of the fallen.....

The circus would become part of the picture process itself, code pink and the like would sue to gain equal access..... thats the circus, exhibits like Camp Casey and the like....don't say such pictures won't become part of a circus, we have seen it to many times, in fact there was a story where an anti war group was diplaying a pair of empty boots and dog tags of the fallen without the fallens family permission...that lasted only as long as the fallens father found out about it....

No one has anything approaching a right to photograph the fallen as they await internment without family permission, that right is the families to give or deny....

[Crossriflesonblue]

Does anyone know why the press was censored in WWII?

Hint, they wanted us to win.

Remember the good old days when guys like earnie Pyle and Edward R Murrow actually rooted for our mission?

Just damn.

I remember, they cared about the boots to, not some political gripe that eschewed an emotional deficit.

[Silentnomore]

yes silent, I had been directly referring to the pictures that have already been taken. As to pictures taken at Dover, I am not sure as to the thoughts on that as there would be a greater chance of the soldier being known, identified. Which I think would cause a harder time for the family. If not, then I am sure it would be a pool reporter\photog taking the pics. Very little if any disruption on the base. As to the outside the base demonstrations, I believe they are already on-going and that is a seperate issue.
Thank you for your thought in your response.


What exactly do you want to see and why? Would it honestly be beneficial and to whom? By publishing photos and videos, what is hoped to be accomplished? I assure you I am being sincere.

I know from personal experience, the harm and devistation done to families because of what happened with the way journalism published Vietnam and it disgusts me.

[rhet 2]

Do it your way, on your own dime. Or join other countries (not many to find that would sacrifice their wealth so irresponsibly).
Keep our country out of others' ****ups.

Unless you want our downfall to complete much sooner than it is likely to occur now.

This isn't somebody else's slug fest -- it's OURS -- because it is OUR culture values being thrown in islamic Death Cult meat grinders.

OUR ENEMIES -- sworn to the eradication of OUR culture, OUR humanism, OUR demand for the sanctity of life, liberty and personalized pursuit of happiness.

OUR CULTURE under assault, threaten with eradication.

And I'd rather smash the Death Cult BEFORE it smashes our own population, our own economy, our own infrastructure AGAIN.

Fifty plus years of highjiacked airplanes and bombed navy vessels and pirated tourist ships should have shown you the reality of the threat -- leave them alone, ignore the Death Cult -- and they send Mohammed Atta types to blow hell out of YOU.

9/11 is the result of NOT fighting on their territory -- so they get the opportunity to blow hell out of your own.

[FirmHand135]

Crossrifle,
The censorship involved american security and troop actions. American casualtys were shown repeatedly to the public.

There would be no circus as it is restricted by agreement with the news agency to pool reporting. Various groups have sued in the past to gain acess and have lost. The circus outside the base is something that everyone is free to particpate in. That has nothing to do with any photos in question.

As for the last part of your argument, we disagree. If the casket is not identifiable in any way, then there is no family to restrict it. If the id is known, I agree, it should be up to the family.

If I remember correctly, right, wrong or indefferent, ms shehen lost her son in the war. She has her right to her Camp Kasey!

[FirmHand135]

Silent,
What I am saying that respectful photos that were taken belong in the public domain as they do not id the soldiers. The purpose is two fold, I believe they can and do honor the soldiers. I also believe that the vast majority of Americans only truely understand the cost of the war if its visual. I looked on youtube....there were some videos already there.....search on Military Thank You and watch that video...then please tell me if its disrespectfull.

[Crossriflesonblue]

Crossrifle,
The censorship involved american security and troop actions. American casualtys were shown repeatedly to the public.

There would be no circus as it is restricted by agreement with the news agency to pool reporting. Various groups have sued in the past to gain acess and have lost. The circus outside the base is something that everyone is free to particpate in. That has nothing to do with any photos in question.

As for the last part of your argument, we disagree. If the casket is not identifiable in any way, then there is no family to restrict it. If the id is known, I agree, it should be up to the family.

If I remember correctly, right, wrong or indefferent, ms shehen lost her son in the war. She has her right to her Camp Kasey!


You need to read the History of censorship during WWII because you are just plain wrong.... you were denying a circus now you defend Sheehans right to one.....you are all over the place...

Who cares about what you remember or think the only ones that matter are the fallens family and our fallen comrades themselves....

[Silentnomore]

Silent,
What I am saying that respectful photos that were taken belong in the public domain as they do not id the soldiers. The purpose is two fold, I believe they can and do honor the soldiers. I also believe that the vast majority of Americans only truely understand the cost of the war if its visual. I looked on youtube....there were some videos already there.....search on Military Thank You and watch that video...then please tell me if its disrespectfull.


I understand that "generic" can be respectful. Not necessary, but respectful. It's the disrespect that stems from publicizing such things that is reprehensible.

[Mar2000]

This isn't somebody else's slug fest -- it's OURS -- because it is OUR culture values being thrown in islamic Death Cult meat grinders.

OUR ENEMIES -- sworn to the eradication of OUR culture, OUR humanism, OUR demand for the sanctity of life, liberty and personalized pursuit of happiness.

OUR CULTURE under assault, threaten with eradication.

And I'd rather smash the Death Cult BEFORE it smashes our own population, our own economy, our own infrastructure AGAIN.

Fifty plus years of highjiacked airplanes and bombed navy vessels and pirated tourist ships should have shown you the reality of the threat -- leave them alone, ignore the Death Cult -- and they send Mohammed Atta types to blow hell out of YOU.

9/11 is the result of NOT fighting on their territory -- so they get the opportunity to blow hell out of your own.

Your liberal interventionism under the cloak of neo-con world view is one big factor of the mess we are in. Unless you are willing to look at the stupidity of dems and reps together, ****ed up local and foreign policy, all you are doing is blowing smoke at a small part of the problem.

We will be a third world country, dollar will be a piece of toilet paper yet you will be screaming about terrorists…

Anyway I don’t want to distract from the op.

As far as the coffins, I would go with what the military and their families' wishes are.

[FirmHand135]

Thank you for your comments Silent. I do appreciate your views. Mine is simply the generic is acceptable. The personal is off limits.
Thanks again for the respectfull opinions.

[rhet 2]

Your liberal interventionism under the cloak of neo-con world view is one big factor of the mess we are in. Unless you are willing to look at the stupidity of dems and reps together, ****ed up local and foreign policy, all you are doing is blowing smoke at a small part of the problem.

We will be a third world country, dollar will be a piece of toilet paper yet you will be screaming about terrorists…

Anyway I don’t want to distract from the op.

As far as the coffins, I would go with what the military and their families' wishes are.

Right.

So, I disagree with extreme right fanaticism, I'm a secret liberal painted with conservative Christian humanist signs........

That, dear, is truly hilarious.

Do note: Christian HUMANIST -- as in I really really really hate genocidal freaks who think their muscles give them to rape, murder, steal, and destroy whenever and whoever however they want to?

Got an answer for the fact that Bin Laden used our refusal to answer the atrocities of Mogadishu to recruit and fund the 9/11 assaults? NON-intervention used as a recruiting tool by those determined to destroy our culture at any cost?

And the fact that a vicious murderous assault on American soil was planned, set up, funded and paid for, trained for, and backed by FOREIGNERS who hate our culture with a passion and want YOU dead dead dead -- and ALREADY have their operatives alive and well inside our borders -- and that NON-intervention has been our policy since 1928, resulting in growing vicious assaults, including several that succeeded and a lot that were barely stopped in time?

[Adlerian Thinker]

Thats fine..you have your beliefs and I have mine. I do have the same right to express them as you do. I will not be silent!
Your time in the service gives you no better right than my time in the service as to the thoughts and views...NONE.

That you think that shows you how woefully ignorant of the topic.

If you have served at all, and still hold this view, hen it tdoes not reflect well on you.

As for you being silent, I haven't asked for that. I prefer those with stupid agendas highlight the insipid vapidity of their positions.

You have succeeded in that mightily.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Armymaj,
Your damn right I support it, your damn right I have been against the war, always have. Even when it was unpopular to do so. I always thought the Dems who went along to get along were wrong. Any war that is an optional war is one you better think long and hard on before you enter it. War is not to be taken lightly, it has a high cost, both monetarily and human. Being a former Army officer I would have thought you would have taken the same view. After all, the lives in question are the ones under your command. I hope to god you took that very seriously!

Yes we did see the flag drapped coffins as they returned to the states, saw it reported live in fact. As you said about the other events, I do believe that in most cases they were reported on the news.
The victims of Waco are not nor should they be involved in this discussion but since you mentioned it, yes they were shown. Do you have any other points? Would be happy to answer them.

I didn't pick this conflict, your former goverment picked this conflict to stifle the dissent. The former CIC and sec of Def were the ones who limited it, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER...EVER EVER EVER.
That should send a chill down your spine!

Your ranting is getting more disjointed. It was pointed out to you that this was not the first time censorship has been used. Thus it's not the "THE FIRST TIME EVER...EVER EVER EVER." Could you possibly be any more emotive?

Let's just summarize.

You want to show the dead bodies returning from the conflict.

I don't.

You haven't established a legal, or moral right to it.

I have provided a moral basis against it. There's also a legal basis against it.

Cry me a river.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Accomplish the mission Armymaj???? But your former CIC stood on the carrier deck and proclaimed it was MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

and for the record, WWII was reported on in the sense that the struggles of the GI in the trenches were shown, showin in spades. Not hidden. Only thing was it took some time, it wasn't immediate as information is today.

In additon, what your referring to was WWII, where we were attacked by Japan. Have searched long and hard and have yet to find where Iraq attacked the United States...can you tell me the date and place this occured??

Careful, your agenda is showing.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Silent,
What I am saying that respectful photos that were taken belong in the public domain as they do not id the soldiers. The purpose is two fold, I believe they can and do honor the soldiers. I also believe that the vast majority of Americans only truely understand the cost of the war if its visual. I looked on youtube....there were some videos already there.....search on Military Thank You and watch that video...then please tell me if its disrespectfull.

The "public" has no right to any of the pictures.

You haven't demonstrated any right.

[countzero123]

Originally Posted by punkrocker27ka http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=48990971#post48990971)
if we showed the true human cost of war, people would think twice before supporting a war....

Maybe we should show the Towers being hit planes flown by the terrorists everyday as a way to remind us that there really are people that want to harm us here on this continent.

And maybe some historical coverage of Saddam's mass graves full of people killed by his chemical weapons, or 'dissidents' with their hands cut off, beheadings, etc.

Oh sorry, I forgot, it's all about oil. :snooty:

[Mar2000]

Right.

So, I disagree with extreme right fanaticism, I'm a secret liberal painted with conservative Christian humanist signs........

That, dear, is truly hilarious.

Do note: Christian HUMANIST -- as in I really really really hate genocidal freaks who think their muscles give them to rape, murder, steal, and destroy whenever and whoever however they want to?

Got an answer for the fact that Bin Laden used our refusal to answer the atrocities of Mogadishu to recruit and fund the 9/11 assaults? NON-intervention used as a recruiting tool by those determined to destroy our culture at any cost?

And the fact that a vicious murderous assault on American soil was planned, set up, funded and paid for, trained for, and backed by FOREIGNERS who hate our culture with a passion and want YOU dead dead dead -- and ALREADY have their operatives alive and well inside our borders -- and that NON-intervention has been our policy since 1928, resulting in growing vicious assaults, including several that succeeded and a lot that were barely stopped in time?

I do not care about their feelings, expressions of hate or love towards us – what counts is their actions. And forget about preventing terror, not going to happen.

What I do care about is doing what we can afford and must – we can’t manage ourselves yet we pretend we can run our global policy, what a joke we have become.

Show me politicians who can manage us – then I will consider if we can still do anything other than dream about our influence in the world without committing suicide at the same time.

I admire your emotional involvement – in current conditions, with our own idiots running the poor show in the great country of ours, I cannot be anything than a realist.

(I won’t even mention the open borders so I don’t get ****ed again and highjack the op even more…)

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
to answer your points.
As to the legal and moral establishment to the photos.
1. Legal.. Precedent from past wars and milirary actions where those very same pictures and more detailed ones have been shown at the release of the military, with their full knowledge and consent has clearly established the right of public domain and access. In addition, the photos are already in the public domain and the military did try to get a gag order against their release...they failed. So legal ground thinker...you have NONE!

2. Moral...I believe in all sides having the very same access to the information so that they may make informed choices. This isn't a pick and choose kind of democracy. If your cause is so just, then surely it can with stand the scrutiny. If not, your cause will falter. By blocking those, you are surely showing your weakness and fear of the information and the peoples ability to make rational choices.
As for what you have claimed to have stated....nothing, absolutly nothing other than there is no right to be seen.
Please come with a better argument. Please tell me that for a debate that you clearly have passion for...that you have something substantial to offer!

And yes, I stated my views...I don't have a hidden agenda. You clearly do.

[crux]

1.
Legal: "Expectation of Privacy"

2.
Moral: Useless at this point , you have apparently disregarded this concept

[FirmHand135]

Crux, I do agree with you. Thats why I have always stated that if there is any hint of identification, then it should remain private.
without identity you have not invaded privacy!

[crux]

Crux, I do agree with you. Thats why I have always stated that if there is any hint of identification, then it should remain private.
without identity you have not invaded privacy!

But you claim there is no way of identifying and you are wrong.

It happened during Vietnam

People know where those planes come from, more so today than then.

Back then you had to look at tail numbers or the personnel who were with the casket, now you can you can find the flight number and time and destination on the internet

There is no need to hand dead public employees over to political paparazzi

If your son was on that plane...you would know it. Then and now

[crux]

And like I said they... the families and the dead(no longer working for the public) ...have an Expectation of Privacy

[FirmHand135]

The photos in question crux were taken inside a cargo bay of an airforce jet. There was no tail number to be seen, there were no form of identification anywhere visibile in the pics. In fact it was stated when the pics were released that they had been taken sometime previously. No date was ever given of the time the pics were taken. If in fact that is correct, then the burials had already occurred and in most cases the funerals were directly covered by the local media in some form.
Have you viewed the pics yourself? For me it would be impossible to comment unless I had done so. youtube.com ...search military thank you...the tribute video contains some of the photos.

[crux]

The photos in question crux were taken inside a cargo bay of an airforce jet. There was no tail number to be seen, there were no form of identification anywhere visibile in the pics. In fact it was stated when the pics were released that they had been taken sometime previously. No date was ever given of the time the pics were taken. If in fact that is correct, then the burials had already occurred and in most cases the funerals were directly covered by the local media in some form.
Have you viewed the pics yourself? For me it would be impossible to comment unless I had done so. youtube.com ...search military thank you...the tribute video contains some of the photos.

Yes I have seen them.

My point still stands. You have no "right" to see them dead

[FirmHand135]

Crux, we will just have to disagree on who has what right. I will continue to fight for what I believe in, I expect you will do the same. Lets just hope it can be done in a respectfull and civil manner!
I am curious as to what you thought of the video and the pictures since you have seen them.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Armymaj,
Your damn right I support it, your damn right I have been against the war, always have. Even when it was unpopular to do so. I always thought the Dems who went along to get along were wrong. Any war that is an optional war is one you better think long and hard on before you enter it. War is not to be taken lightly, it has a high cost, both monetarily and human. Being a former Army officer I would have thought you would have taken the same view. After all, the lives in question are the ones under your command. I hope to god you took that very seriously!

Yes we did see the flag drapped coffins as they returned to the states, saw it reported live in fact. As you said about the other events, I do believe that in most cases they were reported on the news.
The victims of Waco are not nor should they be involved in this discussion but since you mentioned it, yes they were shown. Do you have any other points? Would be happy to answer them.

I didn't pick this conflict, your former goverment picked this conflict to stifle the dissent. The former CIC and sec of Def were the ones who limited it, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER...EVER EVER EVER.
That should send a chill down your spine!

Just a few questions, if you don't mind. You say you served, what Branch, Army, Navy, AF or Marines? What time period? What rank achieved and what specialty.

Despite your assertations, I am not a war monger. the soldier more than anyone knows the consequences. I just find your view interesting since the services exist to be prepared to fight.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
to answer your points.
As to the legal and moral establishment to the photos.
1. Legal.. Precedent from past wars and milirary actions where those very same pictures and more detailed ones have been shown at the release of the military, with their full knowledge and consent has clearly established the right of public domain and access. In addition, the photos are already in the public domain and the military did try to get a gag order against their release...they failed. So legal ground thinker...you have NONE!

You ignore the suppression of photos in previous conflicts. The use of the pictures before does not establish public domain in perpetuity.
So you are clearly incorrect.

2. Moral...I believe in all sides having the very same access to the information so that they may make informed choices. This isn't a pick and choose kind of democracy. If your cause is so just, then surely it can with stand the scrutiny. If not, your cause will falter. By blocking those, you are surely showing your weakness and fear of the information and the peoples ability to make rational choices.
People don't need pictures to make informed choices. Your want does not establish a moral right. Jeez, how old are you?

As for what you have claimed to have stated....nothing, absolutly nothing other than there is no right to be seen.

I am sure you thought you were making a witty point here, but you just sound confused. I don't claim to have stated anything.

Please come with a better argument. Please tell me that for a debate that you clearly have passion for...that you have something substantial to offer!

Why, when your being soundly pwned?

And yes, I stated my views...I don't have a hidden agenda. You clearly do.

What's hidden about my agenda? I don't want the bodies of dead American soldiers being used as political pawns by mealy mouthed liberals who think they have some ghoulish right to use the dead body for less than honorable purposes.

I've been very upfront about that.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Crux, we will just have to disagree on who has what right. I will continue to fight for what I believe in, I expect you will do the same. Lets just hope it can be done in a respectfull and civil manner!
I am curious as to what you thought of the video and the pictures since you have seen them.

It is clear that you seek to use the dead for purposes to which they would not agree when alive.

They are not yours to use, alive or dead, in a manner in which they would not agree while alive.

Get over it already.

You have no moral standing. None.

[FirmHand135]

As this thread is not about me or my service I am not going into specifics about myself here. But in generalities I will say that I served in the Army during the 80's and I was enlisted. Never received one black mark during my career. As to your asserstions about a solider knowing what what he is getting into, yes and no. I knew exactly what I was getting into but you can believe the recruirters never mentioned that and always down played the fact or at times even lied to people to get them to sign. These are the ones I know and of who I am speaking of. So the last part your statement isn't totally correct in my opinion. But it can be argued that they plain should have had a full understanding just on the simple fact they were joining the military. So army major, you and I already approach things from a different view. I managed to see some things that I don't ever wish to see again nor do I wish to subject anyone else to it unless there is an absolute need.

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
You and I of different natures. We are both Americans. We both have the right to our thoughts and ideas. We both have a right to express those views. I choose to do so in a manner that debates the subject. I don't see how name calling aids in the process. If you don't like the message, then shoot the messenger? If you don't like what they are talking about, then talk louder. Is that your purpose? Because I am really trying to understand your rant, you seem to go on and on without ever making a clear point as to your standing. You claimed that there is no legal standing, so I brought you proof of that. Then you say it doesn't apply to this. So in that regards, tell me what makes this conflict\action so special that pictures are not to be shown reported? Tell me that. Have some good basis other than you want or desire. I say this to you as it has been done in all the other conflicts\actions. So your wanting to break the norm, the standard, the accepted policy. Tell me why it should. Have some evidence!

[rhet 2]

As this thread is not about me or my service I am not going into specifics about myself here. But in generalities I will say that I served in the Army during the 80's and I was enlisted. Never received one black mark during my career. As to your asserstions about a solider knowing what what he is getting into, yes and no. I knew exactly what I was getting into but you can believe the recruirters never mentioned that and always down played the fact or at times even lied to people to get them to sign. These are the ones I know and of who I am speaking of. So the last part your statement isn't totally correct in my opinion. But it can be argued that they plain should have had a full understanding just on the simple fact they were joining the military. So army major, you and I already approach things from a different view. I managed to see some things that I don't ever wish to see again nor do I wish to subject anyone else to it unless there is an absolute need.


Look, just live with the fact that the troops and their supporters are NEVER going to approve this political propaganda tactic as anything except crude, vulgar, and insensitive imposition and capitalization on and usurpation of our grief for selfish and cruel political activist agendas.

We REJECT the tactic as anti-social to the hilt.

You can argue and wriggle and squiggle and squirm all you want to to try to justify the tactic and make Politicalized Swine Lords in the media feel less guilty for using it, but that will NEVER change our opinion of the tactic.

Because it IS vulgar, crude, insensitive and UNWELCOME intrusion into things the media monsters neither understand nor have the capacity to protect and preserve, only to abuse and misuse in terribly cruel and destructive ways.

And the Pinkeestas with their phony as hell "crosses" and the media with their even more phony "sympathy" and stupid, gross, and abusive photographs can take their crude, vulgar, sociopathic HATE TORTURE TORMENT TACTICS and stuff them where the sun never shines -- up their egomanical ME MEMEMEMEME! spoiled brat political bulldog nasty butts.

And THANK GOD somebody in Washington had enough compassion and common human decency to try to stop the predators from using those photographs in crude, nasty, vicious SCORN for those coffins.

[FirmHand135]

Again rhet2, you and I just disagree. Please don't pretend to speak on behalf of the military as a whole. I assure you that they don't hold the same views as you do.

[rhet 2]

Again rhet2, you and I just disagree. Please don't pretend to speak on behalf of the military as a whole. I assure you that they don't hold the same views as you do.

So, which MINORITY are you listening to? Because I ASSURE YOU, you haven't heard one word the MAJORITY are saying.

Weasel slimes like the bastard in Germany who took the money and abandoned his team, to wallow in luxurious "sanctuary" from the charge of treason that sure as hell should get him a bullet from a firing squad for that treason -- yeah, faithless traitorous sociopathic anti-socialized bastards like that one -- yeah, cowards and traitors and total Butt Wipes who take the money and lie like freaks when they put on their uniforms -- some of those oathbreaking little worms do wear the uniform and do fight like hell to avoid doing what they swore to do.

But those are the worms -- the disgusting filthy backstabbing FEW -- cowards and liars and selfish little USERS AND TAKERS who betray the men who LIVE THE HONOR CODE and do what they swore they'd do, defend the Flag and the Constitution and the American way of life.

Listen to yellow bellied cowardly traitors and liars and cheats. That's what you want to do.

BUT NEVER TELL ME THAT IS THE NORM -- because I hear the others, the MAJORITY, who fight like hell to overcome hellish injuries to get back to Iraq, get back to A-stan, get back to their Brothers in Arms and DESTROY the bastards who are determined to destroy our culture at any cost.

This is not a draft military full of Hippie brats who didn't have the GUTS to live for an ideal they didn't comprehend and a cause they were too damned selfish, too spoiled with luxurious living to serve.

This is NOT the military of the 1970s.

The men whose bodies lay in those boxes are MEN with the guts to live for a cause they knew and VOLUNTEERED to fight for. And their Brothers in Arms that stood with them in battle are MEN who know the cause and KEEP THEIR COMMITMENTS, noble and strong and trustworthy.

Not the yellow bellied little cur dogs taking the easy way out of their responsibilities to humanity itself like that filthy little cur John Kerry and Murtha the Thief did. They DON'T slime on their Brothers and cut and run to leave others to face the firestorms alone.

They know their Mission -- and they Walk in HONOR -- all the way to the grave, if that's what it comes to.

And no way in hell you can honor their graves if you cannot honor the cause they die for, honor the cause they fight for.

So keep the media with their lies and their scornful indifference to the Troops can keep their political activist phony flaky FAKE grief to themselves. Keep their stupid, ignorant ******* Peacenik LIES AND STUPIDITIES and shove their falsehoods and their dumbass misrepresentations and ACTOR BACKWARD CRUDITY AND MOVIE FICTION ******** for those willing to fawn over their FALSE PRETEND WORLD butts.

The Troops don't need their lies and their pretenses. Don't want them. Don't admire the ACTORS AND PRETENDERS locked into the FALSE world of Holly Freaking Weird World, and even more don't admire, don't respect, do NOT LOVE the narrow-minded bigoted bastardized LAWYER FICTION PEOPLE of the thrice-damned political PRETENDERS in Washington DC Never Never Land, either. Every one of those men you want to use for your Peacenik wars against human rights and human dignity and human responsibility and human nobility of heart and mind would spit in your face if they could. And so would their families. And so DO their Brothers in Arms.

Which the media dogs and the stupid dumbass lawyers living in Fiction World would know, if they bothered to actually talk WITH the troops and listen -- like Joe Lieberman, who may be the only honest real liberal left in the Democrat Party that threw his insubmissive refuse-to-kiss-ass butt out of their elite society of FOOLS EXTRADINARE did.

Not that Real Men are willing to waste time and energy talking with ******* arrogant jerks like Obama and Pelosi and the Clinton Twins anymore. Total WASTE trying to educate the obstinately ignorant Little Lost Boys Who Refuse to Grow Up living in the Peacenik Never Never Land where crocodiles always come with ticking alarm clocks and pirates always lose in stupid laugh-laugh-laugh incompentent stumble bum stupidities.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
You and I of different natures. We are both Americans. We both have the right to our thoughts and ideas. We both have a right to express those views. I choose to do so in a manner that debates the subject. I don't see how name calling aids in the process. If you don't like the message, then shoot the messenger? If you don't like what they are talking about, then talk louder. Is that your purpose? Because I am really trying to understand your rant, you seem to go on and on without ever making a clear point as to your standing. You claimed that there is no legal standing, so I brought you proof of that. Then you say it doesn't apply to this. So in that regards, tell me what makes this conflict\action so special that pictures are not to be shown reported? Tell me that. Have some good basis other than you want or desire. I say this to you as it has been done in all the other conflicts\actions. So your wanting to break the norm, the standard, the accepted policy. Tell me why it should. Have some evidence!

You do not have a legal basis for your position. You say you brought proof, I brought proof otherwise.
You do not have a moral basis for your position. You have brought no proof that you do.
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=48803641&postcount=19

Given your various rhetorical usages in this thread, it is laughable that you are telling me to "grow up."

Please take your own advice.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Again rhet2, you and I just disagree. Please don't pretend to speak on behalf of the military as a whole. I assure you that they don't hold the same views as you do.

You don't speak for any in the military.

I speak for those in combat arms. I have not once, in twelve years service, or thereafter, met a combat arms who would hold that it is OK to use the bodies of their brothers for propaganda purposes at odds with the stated mission of the fallen.

As you don;t speak for the military, by your own admission, you cannot then tell anyone that you can assure them of anything regarding the military.

[FirmHand135]

thinker, I went back and reviewed your posts in this thread and I didn't find one piece of information pointing to a legal standing other than you said you don't want them to be. Legal standing refers to some sort of legal action that has taken place or a precedent that has been established. I have cited the precedent and the court rulings. Please provide yours. On the moral standing, you said they don't that its a private matter. I disagree. I said the public has the right in as long as no id is made and its respectfull. So you and I just plain disagree on the moral issue. It can be very emotional. Which is my point, the pictures will spark intense emotions, cause people to really think. Which is something that should be done over such a serrious topic.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker, I went back and reviewed your posts in this thread and I didn't find one piece of information pointing to a legal standing other than you said you don't want them to be. Legal standing refers to some sort of legal action that has taken place or a precedent that has been established. I have cited the precedent and the court rulings. Please provide yours. On the moral standing, you said they don't that its a private matter. I disagree. I said the public has the right in as long as no id is made and its respectfull. So you and I just plain disagree on the moral issue. It can be very emotional. Which is my point, the pictures will spark intense emotions, cause people to really think. Which is something that should be done over such a serrious topic.

All you have are emotions. This is all about what you "want".

Pictures have been censored during war time. Do you recall numerous pictures from Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia, OIF? The very fact that the military set up press pools and embeds shows that the military has the legal right to control such things. The fact that they have not always done so has not removed that legal right.

And, while we may disagree on the moral issue, that doesn't mean that you have no moral right. It just means you don;t and you want it.

You don't have it, you will never have it.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=19

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
so your telling me that you do speak for ALL of combat arms. That they speak with just one voice and that voice is yours? None in the group has a divergent thought from yours? I just want to be sure I am understanding you clearly.
And that is something you are correct about finally, I don't speak for the military nor would I ever pretend to. The military is as diverse as the country it defends.
I wonder if your fellow brother in arms in combat arms would like to be used for a purpose they don't believe in...and what would happen if they didnt believe in the Iraq war? then what..would they wish for themselves to be used by the right to promote and perpetuate the war?

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
so your telling me that you do speak for ALL of combat arms. That they speak with just one voice and that voice is yours? None in the group has a divergent thought from yours? I just want to be sure I am understanding you clearly.

What a crock. I am being very clear, here. Why is it that you think I am not being clear?

And that is something you are correct about finally, I don't speak for the military nor would I ever pretend to. The military is as diverse as the country it defends.

So then don't speak for the military, and don't assure anyone what the military thinks. As one who does not speak for the military, you are in no postion to tell me I don't.

I wonder if your fellow brother in arms in combat arms would like to be used for a purpose they don't believe in...and what would happen if they didnt believe in the Iraq war? then what..would they wish for themselves to be used by the right to promote and perpetuate the war?

Obviously you a were not combat arms. If you were, you wouldn't even have to ask.

Check out the 'Civilian vs Veteran" thread. I am definitely thinking you have a civilian frame of mind, regardless of your service.

The military is a volunteer service. Combat arms is doubly so.

You do not go into the combat arms to worry about the why of the mission.

And you certainly do NOT want your dead body being used at cross purposes of your mission.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=19

[ArmyMAJretired]

You don't speak for any in the military.

I speak for those in combat arms. I have not once, in twelve years service, or thereafter, met a combat arms who would hold that it is OK to use the bodies of their brothers for propaganda purposes at odds with the stated mission of the fallen.

As you don;t speak for the military, by your own admission, you cannot then tell anyone that you can assure them of anything regarding the military.

This Airborne Ranger Combat Vet agrees 110%

All I have to say is HOOOAH!

All the way and then some!:flag:

"Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, our country!"

[rhet 2]

This Airborne Ranger Combat Vet agrees 110%

All I have to say is HOOOAH!

All the way and then some!:flag:

"Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, our country!"


Amen and again, AMEN!

As for us Grandma civilian cookie bakers and coffee senders, we WILL support the cause for which you fight and WILL believe in your Honor.

Because baking cookies, sending coffee, and believing in you is the best way I know to make sure you live up to the Honor Code and Stand to Defend the nation.

HOOOAH!

Go, Airborne!

You da MAN!

You do your mothers proud, oh yes you do! They smile upon you from Heaven's Gates, their hearts beating in joy for you and your Brothers.

[Adlerian Thinker]

This Airborne Ranger Combat Vet agrees 110%

All I have to say is HOOOAH!

All the way and then some!:flag:

"Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, our country!"

Hooah back at ya, Major!

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
I am impressed. Not often I come across somebody who speaks for the 500+ thousand of the US Army not to mention the 1.3 million of the total US Military service.
Somehow I always thought the military was more diverse and all the people that make it up had more than one single solitary train of thought on a personal level. I know that when I was in that was the case. It was a great make up of people and their personalities, not to mention their thoughts and views on various topics. When did it change, since you speak for all of them?

as to the other things you mentioned. Well I am prior service and I think for myself. So put that in whatever thread you wish.

Your correct, the military is a volunteer service. Any arm of the service is that, not just combat arms. As to combat arms being more so than the others, you need to get their, once your their you need to talk to people for help and you need supplies. It all works as a big team. If one fails, you all fail. Equally! And last I looked all branches of the Army and military have taken casualties, not just combat arms.

and for your last..well we already covered that as I don't believe that you do speak for everyone. I am the same as you and you don't speak for me!

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
I am impressed. Not often I come across somebody who speaks for the 500+ thousand of the US Army not to mention the 1.3 million of the total US Military service.

I am completely non-impressed. It's not often I come across a person who claims they don't speak for a group, who then professes to know who does, or does not speak for a group. And for your information, I said combat arms, which is but a small percentage of the military, as there are more support than combat arms.

You strike me as one who served in the rear, unhappy with your lot in life, even though you chose it. All that was left was for you to snipe at your betters, including those brave souls who gave their life to complete a mission you could never understand, much less support. Yes, you have the right to want to use thier bodies to further your agenda, but you don;t have the actual right to do so. So sorry for you.

Somehow I always thought the military was more diverse and all the people that make it up had more than one single solitary train of thought on a personal level. I know that when I was in that was the case. It was a great make up of people and their personalities, not to mention their thoughts and views on various topics. When did it change, since you speak for all of them?

Since I haven't claimed that they weren't diverse, you've wasted bandwidth. As a combat arms veteran, I do know the minds of those I served with, diverse as they were. It takes certain mindset to BE combat arms, and as I had that mindset, it is very easy for me to speak of the similar mindset of others. I don't care how bitter you may be at your inability to share that mindset.

as to the other things you mentioned. Well I am prior service and I think for myself. So put that in whatever thread you wish.

That's nice. You sound like a pogue.

Your correct, the military is a volunteer service. Any arm of the service is that, not just combat arms. As to combat arms being more so than the others, you need to get their, once your their you need to talk to people for help and you need supplies. It all works as a big team. If one fails, you all fail. Equally! And last I looked all branches of the Army and military have taken casualties, not just combat arms.

Immaterial, although I will accept your concession.

and for your last..well we already covered that as I don't believe that you do speak for everyone. I am the same as you and you don't speak for me!

I am not interested in your "beliefs" or your "feelings."

I am interested in keeping my fallen brothers from being used by people who have NOT, EVER, EARNED the RIGHT.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Since I haven't claimed that they weren't diverse, you've wasted bandwidth. As a combat arms veteran, I do know the minds of those I served with, diverse as they were. It takes certain mindset to BE combat arms, and as I had that mindset, it is very easy for me to speak of the similar mindset of others. I don't care how bitter you may be at your inability to share that mindset.



That's nice. You sound like a pogue.





Reminds me of the old saying, "If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter".

REMF

Garret trooper

In the rear with the gear

Yes, support branches are important in that they allow the Combat Arms to close with and destroy the enemy.

JMHO :flag:

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
you try to twist and to spin but you come up empty with facts.
you tell the person you have water to give them but in reality only give them sand.
I said I don't speak for all on their personal views. I will submit that anyone who does profess to do so is a dangerous fool!
And yes I do know that combat arms is but one branch if you will of the army. A vital one just as vital as the rest.
I don't recall saying where which branch arm I served in of the Army other than the fact that I served in the Army. Last I looked, there was also no rear in the Army, its all kind of front line. Save for the fact that certein units may not go door to door.
As for me being happy, I am and was very content. I saw the good and the bad that the military can bring. I saw things with my eyes open.

As for my right to use the bodies...another twist on your part...I have not used any body. I have used a flag drapped casket. As soon as you id something, it is not used. And as for the actual right..its already done so your wrong on that point as well.

As to the mindset of Combat Arms...then you have just limited yourself to that general knowledge, none of the other groups mindsets, so then you admit you can't speak as to their mindsets.

as for your ref as a pogue...*S* Know of which you speak before you speak. Assumptions can make one look a fool!

As for what is earned...I have earned my right. I will not let you trample on it!

[FirmHand135]

Armymaj,
I thought the Army had been training its officers to get rid of the mentality that one is more important than the rest. That it was a team effort. I thought that the senior brass took a dim view of its junior officers who laughed or made jokes of any of the branches.
Anyways, laugh, make jokes, it doesn't matter but rather it just distracts from the topic. Perhaps that is the point.
You and I will just agree to disagree.

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
No offense taken at you calling me a pogue since you don't know me. I am assuming that was directed at me.
I do hope you don't inspire that sort of thought with your other Combat Arm brothers...I know I would not condone it with the people I served with. you need them as much as they need you!

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
you try to twist and to spin but you come up empty with facts.

Your denial of the facts does not negate the facts.

you tell the person you have water to give them but in reality only give them sand.

Empty prose is still empty.

I said I don't speak for all on their personal views. I will submit that anyone who does profess to do so is a dangerous fool!

One who has admitted that they do not speak for a group does not then get to tell someone else that they do not. You were not in combat arms. I was. You don not know how combat arms think. I do. It's really that simple.

And yes I do know that combat arms is but one branch if you will of the army. A vital one just as vital as the rest.

It's not a branch. Nuff said.

I don't recall saying where which branch arm I served in of the Army other than the fact that I served in the Army. Last I looked, there was also no rear in the Army, its all kind of front line. Save for the fact that certein units may not go door to door.

Again, nuff said.

As for me being happy, I am and was very content. I saw the good and the bad that the military can bring. I saw things with my eyes open.

Sure you did.

As for my right to use the bodies...another twist on your part...I have not used any body. I have used a flag drapped casket. As soon as you id something, it is not used. And as for the actual right..its already done so your wrong on that point as well.

You have used the bodies of the fallen already. The pictures of the bodies in the caskets ARE the fallen. Your statement, "As soon as you id something, it is not used." is absurd on its face. As is your fallacy that something that is already done means it was right to do.


As to the mindset of Combat Arms...then you have just limited yourself to that general knowledge, none of the other groups mindsets, so then you admit you can't speak as to their mindsets.

If the rest of their mindset is as yours, then yes, I don't know them. I don't hang around those who ghoulishly seek to use the fallen for their own purposes.

as for your ref as a pogue...*S* Know of which you speak before you speak. Assumptions can make one look a fool!

I DO know of what I speak. Are you now seeking to create an on-line persona that WAS combat arms? :))

As for what is earned...I have earned my right. I will not let you trample on it!

I know you haven't earned it. There's nothing upon which to trample.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Armymaj,
I thought the Army had been training its officers to get rid of the mentality that one is more important than the rest. That it was a team effort. I thought that the senior brass took a dim view of its junior officers who laughed or made jokes of any of the branches.
Anyways, laugh, make jokes, it doesn't matter but rather it just distracts from the topic. Perhaps that is the point.
You and I will just agree to disagree.

You have no idea what the Army teaches its officers.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
No offense taken at you calling me a pogue since you don't know me. I am assuming that was directed at me.
I do hope you don't inspire that sort of thought with your other Combat Arm brothers...I know I would not condone it with the people I served with. you need them as much as they need you!

<yawn>

[FirmHand135]

So you were enlisted or officer?
oly 12 years of service...odd time to exit...some might wonder why.
as for the facts I have stated mine...where are yours...still empty
Yes, I dont speak for a group when it comes to ones personal politicol and moral views. Not sure how sane person could profess to do so. Perhaps the dellusional do.
Glad you had the sense to agree that there are far more in combat than just combat arms.
I like how you begin to tell me what I did and did not see during my time in the Army. Were you there? Do you know what I did?
And not trying to protray any online combat persona. Again you don't know me or what I did.

And as to you admitting that you don't know the mindset of the rest of the Army outside of combat arms, thank you! You have admitted that you can no longer speak for all!

If I haven't earned my right...then neither have you!

Bottom line is we have different views on the topic. I believe mine are correct and you believe that yours are correct.
Its time we end this before you try to make it more personal than it already is!

[Adlerian Thinker]

So you were enlisted or officer?

I was both. I spent 2 years as an Infantry Officer at Ft. Benning, GA. I resigned my commission to go back to being an Infantry Drill Sergeant.

oly 12 years of service...odd time to exit...some might wonder why.

Only noobs like yourself. Most know that I had a medical retirement due to a diagnosis of Crohn's Disease. You see, There is nothing a bout my service that I need to hide from, and everything about my service that I am proud of. And you oseek to somehow use this against me, how?

as for the facts I have stated mine...where are yours...still empty

Continuing to deny the facts I've posted doesn't alter their existence.

Yes, I dont speak for a group when it comes to ones personal politicol and moral views. Not sure how sane person could profess to do so. Perhaps the dellusional do.
Glad you had the sense to agree that there are far more in combat than just combat arms.

The delusional think that things that do exist don't, and those that don't exist do. Your posts are a profiler's dream.

I like how you begin to tell me what I did and did not see during my time in the Army. Were you there? Do you know what I did?

No, I don't know what you did as you've been too ashamed about it to discuss it. I can guess why.

I can also tell from the tenor and content of your posts that you had very little real contact with real soldiers, whether combat arms or not.

And not trying to protray any online combat persona. Again you don't know me or what I did.

I am unclear on what your incomplete statement is supposed to say.

And as to you admitting that you don't know the mindset of the rest of the Army outside of combat arms, thank you! You have admitted that you can no longer speak for all!

What a nice Pyrrhic victory for you, as I have not claimed to speak for all.

I don't know pogues very well. I know grunts very well. I can even go as far as to say I don't know special forces soldiers very well. However, my brother does being one himself, and he has let me know on numerous occasions that, beyond the fact that he and his brothers are much better at what they do than I or my brothers could ever hope to be, our thought processes were very similar. As my circle of friends, family and colleagues stretch out through all combat arms, and through all branches of service, I feel very comfortable in my statement.

If I haven't earned my right...then neither have you!

Yeah, I won't take a pogue's word for it. Thanks.

Bottom line is we have different views on the topic. I believe mine are correct and you believe that yours are correct.
Its time we end this before you try to make it more personal than it already is!

You 'believe' and 'feel' that yours are correct. I know mine are.

The bottom line is you have no legal standing to those photos. It is also very clear that you have no moral standing to those photos.

I am sorry you are ashamed of what you did. I don't get that, as I am very proud of my service, and the brothers I served with. It's a great feeling that not many people get to feel.

As for making personal, you have no clue or concept of what getting personal is.

Since you want to step on the sorrow and grief of Gold Star families, with no regard for their 'beliefs' and 'feelings', I can't think of how you can type about being "personal" with a straight face.

[GA_LP]

You don't speak for any in the military.

I speak for those in combat arms. I have not once, in twelve years service, or thereafter, met a combat arms who would hold that it is OK to use the bodies of their brothers for propaganda purposes at odds with the stated mission of the fallen.

As you don;t speak for the military, by your own admission, you cannot then tell anyone that you can assure them of anything regarding the military.
This Airborne Ranger Combat Vet agrees 110%

All I have to say is HOOOAH!

All the way and then some!:flag:

"Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, our country!"
Add to this one former Combat Engineer, HOOAH.

Sorry, Firmhand, I will oppose any attempt to use my fallen brothers' remains as a propaganda tool. I may have never met or served with them, yet they are just as much my brothers as the men I served with from 83-87, as are all those whose preceded me.

You speak of the Team; yes it is a team effort, requiring all to complete the mission. The difference is Combat Arms train and prepare to "Kill or be Killed"; it is the norm for us to be killed, even in training accidents. For the Combat Support units, they SOMETIMES stumble into a circumstance they sees them take casualties. Even in war, it is an unusual event for them generally. That is what separates the two - we EXPECT to be killed and still we do our assigned tasks.

[rhet 2]

So you were enlisted or officer?
oly 12 years of service...odd time to exit...some might wonder why.
as for the facts I have stated mine...where are yours...still empty
Yes, I dont speak for a group when it comes to ones personal politicol and moral views. Not sure how sane person could profess to do so. Perhaps the dellusional do.
Glad you had the sense to agree that there are far more in combat than just combat arms.
I like how you begin to tell me what I did and did not see during my time in the Army. Were you there? Do you know what I did?
And not trying to protray any online combat persona. Again you don't know me or what I did.



And as to you admitting that you don't know the mindset of the rest of the Army outside of combat arms, thank you! You have admitted that you can no longer speak for all!

If I haven't earned my right...then neither have you!

Bottom line is we have different views on the topic. I believe mine are correct and you believe that yours are correct.
Its time we end this before you try to make it more personal than it already is!

Basic Reality 101: nations have military forces for ONE and ONLY ONE purpose -- to break and destroy and kill enemies -- COMBAT

Every single solitary job in the military from file clerk to motor pool to base supply to even us little old nursies in the base hospitals that used to be have ONE and ONLY one purpose:

to get the COMBAT troops to the "hot zone" with all the tools and all the skills they need to break things and kill bad guys

preferably without getting themselves with their VERY expensive and hard to come by skills and their VERY expensive tools broken and killed in the process.

We've got troops building farms and improving ag production in Iraq -- for one and only one reason: that helps destroy the damned enemies of the US -- -- i.e., helps make damned sure the COMBAT troops survive COMBAT and are the ones who walk out of the "hot zones" on their own two feet and not in pine boxes.

We've got medics giving free medical care, including delivering babies, in Iraq for one and only one reason: it helps destroy the damned enemies of the US -- i.e., helps make damned sure the COMBAT troops survive COMBAT and are the ones who walk out of the "hot zones" on their own two feet and not in pine boxes.

We've got mail clerks delivering packages and letters to troops in Iraq for one and only one reason. Guess why? Yeah, to make damned sure the killers and breakers of enemy butts continue to be upbeat and positive and psychologically ABLE AND WILLING to break things and kill the damned enemies of the United States.

You know, the enemies who have dedicated themselves to repeating their buddies mayhem and slaughter on 9/11 -- the guys who want YOU to be the one broken and dead and in the ground for worms to feed on. The guys who want the legal right to cut off homosexual heads and take little Peacenik liberals out to a courthouse lawn and force everybody in town to stand around and watch while the enemy breakers and killers whip them to death with a cat of nine tails. The guys who want to walk into the nearest grade school, select their next rape victims -- girls and boys -- blow the head off the teacher -- and gang rape the few while forcing the others to watch as an object lesson in why the others should shake in terror when a "Good Muslim" notices they exist. The guys who want to force YOUR wife and mother and sisters and daughters into slavery to their every little whim, including sexual satisfactions, etc. etc. etc. The guys determined to destroy the Bill of Rights so that if you personally so much as tick off the imam who runs YOUR section of the islamic empire, YOU die, just like Nick Berg did -- especially if you shoot off your mouth and say something Mr. Majestic Arab Super Race dislikes.

All of which crimes against humanity HAVE OCCURRED in Iraq and A-stan -- and DO occur in India and in Nigeria and in Darfur and in Sudan -- not to mention in Lebanon and Gaza and the PA. And in Kosovo, too, courtesy of Yellow Back STOOOPID Clinton.

Those are the enemies the ENTIRE MILITARY exists to blow to hell and gone before they get to do any of the fun-fun-fun things they have dedicated their entire existence to doing. Because the troops are the ones who find the left overs demonstrating in graphic detail exactly what the Death Cults of islamic fascist imperialist believe to be "good socio-cultural government."

The same crap AQ and Hamas and Hezbollah and Al Aqsa and some 3 MILLION MEN have sworn to do to the United States, and Britain, and France, and Germany, and Phillipines, and Italy, and Spain, and Thailand, and Canada and Australia and every other nation trying to live according to humanist values. Starting with the USA.

So, the guys in the motor pool and the girls delivering Iraqi babies and the folks delivering those packages and letters to our troops make damned sure the Combat Teams go out and blow hell out of the Bad Guys -- so the Bad Guys don't have another opportunity to come here and blow hell out of your world instead.

Backstabbing traitorous little subhumans like that ******* yellow bellied selfish freak hiding in Germany because he couldn't do the job HE VOLUNTEERED FOR and TOOK MONEY TO DO -- work in the blinking motor pool, such a tough and vicious job, poor little yellow bellied traitorous backstabbing DAMNED FOOL pig butt baby boy -- they LOVE to shoot off their sick society hating anti-American humanity hating bastardized anti-social SELF CENTERED EGOTISTICAL ape mouths off.

But they're not troops. They're nasty, sneaky, yellow bellied cur dogs not worth the name "human" much less the name "man."

And nobody who knows anything about the freaking islamic fascist former best friends and favorite helpers of Nazi Germany thinks much about the slimy little NOT PEOPLE like the two-legged tick infested weasel hiding his yellow bellied subhuman ass in Germany. Troops who've seen the garbage world created by the Death Cults go back and go back and go back again -- even after losing critical body parts, they go back -- for only one reason: make the mass murdering fascist Death Worshipers dead before they do still more disgusting subhuman animal predator feasting on the helpless and decent and UNARMED people the Death Cults feed on.

MEN know the job. MEN make damned sure the new fascist death cult bastards get their grotesque cultural imperialism and racist Arab supremacy shoved down their throats, teeth included. And REAL PEOPLE do everything possible to make damned sure they CAN be successful KILLERS AND BREAKERS of humanity hating psychotic death cult freaking fascist totalitarianist animals on the other side of the culture war.

Just so you get to keep being whatever it is you choose to be without a fascist death cult animal breaking and killing you for it.

This IS NOT THE VIETNAM WAR -- and it's NOT the Hippie subverted and perverted draft army of the 1960s.

The enemy is NOT communist slimes like the mass murdering bastard Ho Chi Minh, who got away with being a genocidal mass murdering torture loving bastard because Peaceniks refused to be men and let the bastard get away with his crimes against humanity.

And the military these death cult fascist imperialists face are not drafted little spoiled luxury addicted traitorous brats like John Kerry, either.

[FirmHand135]

Sorry about your illness, something I would not wish upon anyone.
Thank you for the rest of the information, it did confirm my thoughts about you, typical Type A. Thats fine.

As to the facts...you posted no legal facts. In fact they are out in the public domain already. You lose that argument.

The moral...No we just disagree!

My personal information, its irrelivent since this thread is not about me. Its about a specific topic. I am proud of my service and will not let anyone demean it.

As to your last comment about making it personal, the intent of the forum was to discuss, give and listen to alternate viewpoints in a respectfull manner. That intent gets violated when you chose to lower to name calling and other demeaning tactics. It also distracts from the discussion. But then controlling the discussion is something that a type A personallity has to do!

[FirmHand135]

I appreciate your view and respect your the manner in which you disagreed with mine!

[Adlerian Thinker]

Sorry about your illness, something I would not wish upon anyone.

It is nothing to be sorry about, it just is.

Thank you for the rest of the information, it did confirm my thoughts about you, typical Type A. Thats fine.

Of course it's fine. It's what I am. Just like most other combat arms types.

As to the facts...you posted no legal facts. In fact they are out in the public domain already. You lose that argument.

Not hardly, but you haven't shown an ability to grasp that.

The moral...No we just disagree!

Yup. With you on the losing end of it.

My personal information, its irrelivent since this thread is not about me. Its about a specific topic. I am proud of my service and will not let anyone demean it.

Thank you for your service, and for verifying what I already knew.

As to your last comment about making it personal, the intent of the forum was to discuss, give and listen to alternate viewpoints in a respectfull manner. That intent gets violated when you chose to lower to name calling and other demeaning tactics. It also distracts from the discussion. But then controlling the discussion is something that a type A personallity has to do!

And there we have the transparent set up, and follow through. :rolleyes:

And now you attempt to deflect to the sad name-calling game, which you have hypocritically participated in.

Cool.

All so you can use dead bodies to further your agenda.

[FirmHand135]

The name calling is something you alone engaged in! I did not lower myself to your level! I wanted to but refrained.
Combat Arms just like all specialties is made up of more than type A.

I grasp the fact that you failed to produce any legal standing. Get over the fact that you failed!
The moral standing is up to each and every person to judge for themselves. You are not the judge and juror on that account! Get over it!

yes, I verified that I served...and that I was enlisted. Beyond that you know nothing.

As to the participation...I am not hypocritical at all...I simply did not engage you in that pettyness. I chose not to stoop to your level.
Now...that the discussion about you and me is over...lets discuss the thread..if not, you and I have nothing further to discuss!

[rhet 2]

The name calling is something you alone engaged in! I did not lower myself to your level! I wanted to but refrained.
Combat Arms just like all specialties is made up of more than type A.

I grasp the fact that you failed to produce any legal standing. Get over the fact that you failed!
The moral standing is up to each and every person to judge for themselves. You are not the judge and juror on that account! Get over it!

yes, I verified that I served...and that I was enlisted. Beyond that you know nothing.

As to the participation...I am not hypocritical at all...I simply did not engage you in that pettyness. I chose not to stoop to your level.
Now...that the discussion about you and me is over...lets discuss the thread..if not, you and I have nothing further to discuss!

You ain't gonna use the bodies of men who fought for the cause to bash hell out of the cause they died for.

End of discussion

[Remus Lupin]

You ain't gonna use the bodies of men who fought for the cause to bash hell out of the cause they died for.

End of discussion

:clap: :clap: :clap:
YOU GO RHET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Remus Lupin]

As far as the OP go, I'm against havin g the coffins shown on TV. It takes away the family's right to privacy.

[Adlerian Thinker]

The name calling is something you alone engaged in! I did not lower myself to your level! I wanted to but refrained.

Whatever. :rolleyes:
"I always thought Ranger officers were suppose to lead from the front, by example. for shame! "
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49184981&postcount=49
"You wish to use what pics of the military that suit your purpose but scream, slander and defame any who wish to use the pictures for their purposes. Kind of defeats everything the United States stands for. Interesting viewpoint!"
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49226731&postcount=63
"Now that I have gotten you, crossrifle and Armymaj to admit that you wish to stifle public thought, discussion and opposing viewpoints,"
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49229661&postcount=65
"At least try to be somewhat less hypocritical."
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49248331&postcount=83
"Do you rely on others to form the opinion and not base it on your own thoughts after you have read the facts of the discussion?"
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49248331&postcount=87
"o tell oh wise and most noble one...the omnipitent one..."
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49254621&postcount=91
"Conservatisim=the arrogance of it all! "
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49267611&postcount=96
"thinker grow up"
"Because I am really trying to understand your rant, you seem to go on and on without ever making a clear point as to your standing."
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49335091&postcount=138
"you try to twist and to spin but you come up empty with facts. "
"I will submit that anyone who does profess to do so is a dangerous fool!"
"Assumptions can make one look a fool!"
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49347461&postcount=154
"oly 12 years of service...odd time to exit...some might wonder why."
"Perhaps the dellusional do."
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49358551&postcount=160

A listing of the various ways in which you disrespected your opponent, so please stop the simpering "Personal attacks against me" dodge. :rolleyes:

Combat Arms just like all specialties is made up of more than type A.

You wouldn't know.

I grasp the fact that you failed to produce any legal standing. Get over the fact that you failed!

Whatever. :rolleyes:

The moral standing is up to each and every person to judge for themselves. You are not the judge and juror on that account! Get over it!

So now it's no longer "you have your beliefs and I have mine?" When did that change? I take it that you believe in a relativistic morality? And that I can;t have an opinion? :naughty:

yes, I verified that I served...and that I was enlisted. Beyond that you know nothing.

No, you just asserted it, and I've seen what your assertions amount to.

As to the participation...I am not hypocritical at all...I simply did not engage you in that pettyness. I chose not to stoop to your level.

Clearly false. Look up above.

Now...that the discussion about you and me is over...lets discuss the thread..if not, you and I have nothing further to discuss!

I have been discussing the thread. I have been refuting your position.

Get over it.

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
First off, the very first line you posted, yes I have thought about that post as being too close to the line. It was in response to an attack. Perhaps an apology is warrented for that remark. As I said, that was in response to an attack, one that I clearly saw as over the line, offensive.
As for the rest of the commets, I stand by that as not attacking.
There is no name calling, no questioning their integrety. If you think telling someone that assumptions can make them look foolish is disrespectful....WOW!

Now you assert that I denied your right to an opinion....

Originally Posted by FirmHand135 http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=49377591#post49377591)
The moral standing is up to each and every person to judge for themselves. You are not the judge and juror on that account! Get over it!

where ...where in My quote did I deny your right to an opinion??? Read, READ IT...It clearly states that everyone has that! You are part of everyone, so you are inclusive! All I am saying there is that you don't get to set the moral standards for everyone. Nothing more, nothing less!
you seem to question the fact that I served in the United States Army..in a backhanded manner. Funny, I never questioned your service. But then again, I don't make my past service the epicenter of my life. I did it, I completed it, I was honorably discharged. I have moved on with my life.
As far as not discussing the thread...correct...we are not...I will stand by that. We are discussing BS right now.
Back to the topic..It needs to remain there, it is an important topic.

[rhet 2]

thinker,
First off, the very first line you posted, yes I have thought about that post as being too close to the line. It was in response to an attack. Perhaps an apology is warrented for that remark. As I said, that was in response to an attack, one that I clearly saw as over the line, offensive.
As for the rest of the commets, I stand by that as not attacking.
There is no name calling, no questioning their integrety. If you think telling someone that assumptions can make them look foolish is disrespectful....WOW!

Now you assert that I denied your right to an opinion....

Originally Posted by FirmHand135 http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=49377591#post49377591)
The moral standing is up to each and every person to judge for themselves. You are not the judge and juror on that account! Get over it!

where ...where in My quote did I deny your right to an opinion??? Read, READ IT...It clearly states that everyone has that! You are part of everyone, so you are inclusive! All I am saying there is that you don't get to set the moral standards for everyone. Nothing more, nothing less!
you seem to question the fact that I served in the United States Army..in a backhanded manner. Funny, I never questioned your service. But then again, I don't make my past service the epicenter of my life. I did it, I completed it, I was honorably discharged. I have moved on with my life.
As far as not discussing the thread...correct...we are not...I will stand by that. We are discussing BS right now.
Back to the topic..It needs to remain there, it is an important topic.

Again, NO! NO NO NO NO

You want to politicize a troop death -- get his SIGNED AND NOTARIZED agreement BEFORE he comes home in a box.

Troops having kids who need college funds, I suspect you could find a few who'd SELL you such a right for, oh, 50 K or so.

But NOT WITHOUT THE TROOP's notarized pre-death license to be a jerk first.

And that Frenchified prissy little fat jerk, the imitation Castro, Michael the Moore, can afford it, if he wants it badly enough.

His body -- not your's -- let him sell it if he chooses, but NOT without his agreement to the deal first.

And do take careful note: not his widow's, not his parent's, not his kids' -- HIS

His body, his permission to use it as HE CHOOSES for himself, by himself.

[FirmHand135]

And do take careful note: not his widow's, not his parent's, not his kids' -- HIS

His body, his permission to use it as HE CHOOSES for himself, by himself.
Then I take it that its not your place to speak for each and everyone of them either.
Again, will rest with history and thus precedence of law on my side.
You have your moral views and I have mine. They don't compare. Neither of us will change the others views. There is nothing further for us to discuss on the issue.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
First off, the very first line you posted, yes I have thought about that post as being too close to the line. It was in response to an attack. Perhaps an apology is warrented for that remark. As I said, that was in response to an attack, one that I clearly saw as over the line, offensive.

If you believe it to be over the line, then you have the duty, per TOS, to report it. Otherwise, your repeated attempts to classify a person's response to you as an "attack" is nothing but posturing. If you are going to engage in a highly emotional topic, you have to expect highly emotional responses. In other wordsw, if you cannot take the heat, get out of the kitchen

As for the rest of the comments, I stand by that as not attacking.
There is no name calling, no questioning their integrety. If you think telling someone that assumptions can make them look foolish is disrespectful....WOW!

I posted those as examples of you being less than respectful. I don;t care if you think they are or not. I haven't seen any attacks on you here, and I've been around for awhile, and know what the moderators here see as attacks. What I did do is apply YOUR standards of 'attack' to your own words to show the hypocrisy of your posturing.

Now you assert that I denied your right to an opinion....

Originally Posted by FirmHand135 http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=49377591#post49377591)
The moral standing is up to each and every person to judge for themselves. You are not the judge and juror on that account! Get over it!

where ...where in My quote did I deny your right to an opinion???

I've highlighted it for you, because you seem incapable of understanding what you are saying.

Read, READ IT...It clearly states that everyone has that! You are part of everyone, so you are inclusive! All I am saying there is that you don't get to set the moral standards for everyone. Nothing more, nothing less!

Thank you for proving exactly what I've been saying. Well done.

you seem to question the fact that I served in the United States Army..in a backhanded manner. Funny, I never questioned your service.

Yes, you did, and my precious post highlighted that as well. Specifically, where you, in a backhanded manner, questioned my getting out after 12 years. Again, nicely done.

But then again, I don't make my past service the epicenter of my life. I did it, I completed it, I was honorably discharged. I have moved on with my life.

Yes, you have. You did so to "counter" my years of service, and you even alluded to combat arms service, again to "counter" my combat arms service.

As far as not discussing the thread...correct...we are not...I will stand by that. We are discussing BS right now.
Back to the topic..It needs to remain there, it is an important topic.

Yes, it IS an important topic, and your BS is not needed.

YOU do not get to use the bodies of the fallen as a tool for your foolishness.

Find another way.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Then I take it that its not your place to speak for each and everyone of them either.
Again, will rest with history and thus precedence of law on my side.
You have your moral views and I have mine. They don't compare. Neither of us will change the others views. There is nothing further for us to discuss on the issue.

It is not your place to tell others what their place is.

Precedence of law allows the military to protect its members. Your lack of acknowledgment of that fact DOES NOT ALTER THE FACTS.

If there is nothing further to discuss, THEN STOP DISCUSSING IT.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Truer words were ne'er spoken:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/02/it-is-about-fam.html

I have a good friend, a retired general officer, who served in the Pentagon during the invasion of Iraq and a year or so afterward. When I saw him at a reunion a year ago, he told me about duty at Dover in the course of our conversation. By that he meant that he and other generals at the Pentagon volunteered to go to Dover when aircraft carrying our dead warriors arrived and render them the honor they deserved. They did it on a rotating basis and in his opinion, it was the single highest honor they were afforded – the opportunity to pay their respects and render proper honors to those who had fallen.

I remember him having to pause a few times in his retelling, to sort of gather himself emotionally, and even then there was a bit of a crack in his voice or a glint of tear in his eye. An old Vietnam veteran, he knew personally how important this was to the military community. He also remembered how different it was in that distant war of his youth. That's why it was so vitally important to him that it be done right this time.

What struck me in his telling of his role in honoring our military dead was how intimate the act seemed. Everyone, without prompting, without complaining, without even the slightest hesitation, did all they could to ensure the proper respect, solemnity and care was given the remains of their brothers and sisters who had fallen in combat. Out of sight of anyone other than those on the ramp with them, they rendered the proper honors in a heartfelt way and with a precision meant to signify that this was a military hero for whom they were caring. It was the act of a loving and caring community, a family going through the grieving rituals which are particular to them.

What the military does at Dover isn't something just prescribed by some regulation or manual. It is something done because it is the right and honorable thing to do. It's is the last private and intimate act the military community as a whole renders its lost family member before it turns them over to the public at large. It is, in reality, the final goodbye, a ceremonial relinquishment of their fallen comrade to the nation at large. From that point onward, the affair is public - as public as the family and news media wants to make it.

And that's what has me puzzled about this media demand to intrude on these intense and intimately private moments at Dover. The argument is that filming and photographing the flag covered transfer cases as they arrive in Dover will drive home the real cost of war, and Americans have a right to know that. Of course there are plenty of pictures which are now in the public domain, shot and smuggled out of Dover which will make that point, if necessary. There's really not any necessity to have more of what will look precisely like the photos already in existence. They make the point about the cost of war as well as any new pictures might.

The cost of war can be made in many other ways as well. Pretending that photographs of arriving flag-draped transfer cases is the only real way to do so is simply laughable and demonstrates a dearth of imagination.

Instead, this seems this is more about the media than the cost of war. "The public's right to know" is thrown around like an amendment to the Constitution which should open all doors to their intrusive snooping, when in fact, such a "right" is one made up by the media for the media. The public knows the cost of war – many families have been touched by it throughout the history of our country. It doesn't require the media breaking in on private ceremonies to understand that. It is the public that bears the cost of war and always has.

No, this is about nothing more than media arrogance. It's a demand to be where they want to be whether wanted or not. It's a voyeuristic need to intrude upon and see what they been denied simply because it has been denied. Recording arriving dead at Dover won't illustrate the cost of war any better than it's been illustrated to date. But it will destroy the intimacy and privacy of our final goodbye.

For that reason, I pray that Secretary Gates and President Obama will continue the ban on the media at Dover. All families, to include the military family, need the room and time to grieve and say goodbye in their own special way to those they've lost.

Dover is ours.

[rhet 2]

Then I take it that its not your place to speak for each and everyone of them either.
Again, will rest with history and thus precedence of law on my side.
You have your moral views and I have mine. They don't compare. Neither of us will change the others views. There is nothing further for us to discuss on the issue.

Hell's bells, son.

I'm NOT into slavery. I don't OWN a troop's body. Not even his widow OWNS his body. And sure as hell neither Congress nor CinC owns his body. HE ALONE OWNS HIS BODY.

And you have ZERO legal or historical precedent to justify your desire to take control and abuse his body for your own political hype and goo.

Other than the brutality and cruel indifference and frequently PHYSICAL VIOLENCE of the damned Hippie "Peacenik" wars of the 1960's and early 1970's that is.

If you want to OWN a troop's body, get him to give you OWNERSHIP of it BEFORE he dies.

Get the TROOP'S PERMISSION first -- on a signed and notarized document that gives you the right to use his body for your political activism.

Unless of course you damned well know Moore and Slug Club would MAYBE get two -- if they were damned lucky and offered a big enough purchase price -- because I seriously doubt they'd get just a whole lot of dead bodies LEGALLY signed over to them to use for their thrice-damned ANTIQUATED and Iron Box frozen in the 1970s dead and socially RETARDED Hippie ideology hype and goo culture war.

The troop is the ONLY person with the right to mandate how his body will be used -- got it?

YOU DON"T OWN THAT BODY.

I DON"T OWN THAT BODY.

and sure as hell the political weasels in Washington DO NOT OWN THAT BODY.

Only the TROOP HIMSELF has a RIGHT to determine what happens to his body after he's dead and gone.

Talk to the TROOP if you want to use his body for your political wars against humanism.

FYI: troop families -- if that eternal prissy little Frenchified fool, Moore, DOES try to control how your troop's body is treated after your beloved has died -- SUE HIS ASS OFF. Bankrupt the Frenchie Freak and use the money to send your beloved's most cherished possession, his family, to college. And sue that ******* Obama and Gates, too, if they're so damned stupid and crass and crude as to try to control how his body is used after he no longer can control its use for himself.

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
I enjoyed that piece you posted by by another writer. They stated their reason very clearly and with some logic. Basicly in his view its the militarys final goodbye. Thats the writers view and he has a right to them. I respect his point of view. In that very same article he acknowledged the publics rights as well, he admitted to the precedent. we can discuss the article if you wish..I do feel it highlights many valuable points, on both sides.

as for you in the remarks previous to that, I will respond.
first to the remarks being over the line.
I clearly stated that they were close, I did not say that they were over. All the personal attacks do is drag away from the discussion.
As for you personally, please point out one time I have used\called you a name that is offensive or meant to be offensive. I can say that you have, going by the forum rules.
As for standing the heat in the kitchen, I have no problem doing but to do so, I would have to go outside the forum rules such as you have done. I see no need for that. It distracts from the argument.

I asked for you to present evidence that I had been disrespectfull, you posted my comments that I said were not offensive...My standards. you then try to tell me what my standards are...you have no idea what mine are. So don't try and tell me what they are. I will say judging on the grounds that I have not engaged in your name calling, My standards seem a bit higher than yours.

I said that everybody has a right to their own moral beliefs and values. Yes, that means that you have your own as well. What is so hard to understand about that. Yes, that does mean that I have mine own. Yes, that does mean you don't have the right to set my values or moral code. Nor do I have the right to set yours.
Simple enough to understand.

you admitted that you took a backhanded slap at my service. While I am sorry you took exception to the comment, it was not meant as a backhanded slap at your service. I am sorry you are sensitive to that area. I never questioned your service...Don't question mine!

Yes, it is an important topic...one which needs to be refrained from being skewed by personal attacks. It needs to be focused on the subject. Not on you and I.

[FirmHand135]

It is not your place to tell others what their place is.

Precedence of law allows the military to protect its members. Your lack of acknowledgment of that fact DOES NOT ALTER THE FACTS.

If there is nothing further to discuss, THEN STOP DISCUSSING IT.


thinker,
you will look, the comment was made in a direct response of someone telling me what I what I will and will not do.
On something we are in total agreement! You don't set my moral code and values and I won't set yours.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
I enjoyed that piece you posted by by another writer. They stated their reason very clearly and with some logic. Basicly in his view its the militarys final goodbye. Thats the writers view and he has a right to them. I respect his point of view. In that very same article he acknowledged the publics rights as well, he admitted to the precedent. we can discuss the article if you wish..I do feel it highlights many valuable points, on both sides.

And he admitted to the precedent for my POV. You glossed over that. You also lost the full context of what he said. Typical.

as for you in the remarks previous to that, I will respond.
first to the remarks being over the line.
I clearly stated that they were close, I did not say that they were over. All the personal attacks do is drag away from the discussion.
As for you personally, please point out one time I have used\called you a name that is offensive or meant to be offensive. I can say that you have, going by the forum rules.
As for standing the heat in the kitchen, I have no problem doing but to do so, I would have to go outside the forum rules such as you have done. I see no need for that. It distracts from the argument.

:rolleyes: Again, if you think I've gone over the line, report it. You have the duty to do so. Stop posturing.

I asked for you to present evidence that I had been disrespectfull, you posted my comments that I said were not offensive...My standards. you then try to tell me what my standards are...you have no idea what mine are. So don't try and tell me what they are. I will say judging on the grounds that I have not engaged in your name calling, My standards seem a bit higher than yours.

I am using your standards. By any civil standard you were disrespectful. That you cannot see that they are, but only admit that they "go to the edge", you acknowledge that you had intent to do so, but think you were slick enough to not have "gone over the line." That, is a matter of opinion.

As for your standard being higher, I'm not seeking to degrade the dead. So you don't get to try the moral high ground.

I said that everybody has a right to their own moral beliefs and values. Yes, that means that you have your own as well. What is so hard to understand about that. Yes, that does mean that I have mine own. Yes, that does mean you don't have the right to set my values or moral code. Nor do I have the right to set yours.
Simple enough to understand.

Then stop telling people anything about their values, or be seen as a hypocrite. Simple enough to understand.

you admitted that you took a backhanded slap at my service. While I am sorry you took exception to the comment, it was not meant as a backhanded slap at your service. I am sorry you are sensitive to that area. I never questioned your service...Don't question mine!

You DID question my service. In the manner I previously described.

Yes, it is an important topic...one which needs to be refrained from being skewed by personal attacks. It needs to be focused on the subject. Not on you and I.

Then stop focusing on me. Practice what you preach.

Don't use the dead warriors for your tawdry purposes.

[Adlerian Thinker]

thinker,
you will look, the comment was made in a direct response of someone telling me what I what I will and will not do.
On something we are in total agreement! You don't set my moral code and values and I won't set yours.

Too bad my moral code involves telling others when they are messed up.

So you believe that when others do it, it's OK for you.

Good info to have.

[FirmHand135]

Too bad my moral code involves telling others when they are messed up.

So you believe that when others do it, it's OK for you.

Good info to have.

your point here is what exactly? That you have the right to tell others they are wrong and I have to accept your views, your moral values. NO, I don't. That fact will never change!

[FirmHand135]

[quote=Adlerian Thinker;49430531]And he admitted to the precedent for my POV. You glossed over that. You also lost the full context of what he said. Typical.


quote]

I understand in full what he said. It was a very clear argument. Perhaps it is with him who the conversation should be taking place as he has brought a clear and consice point of view to the table.
he also very clearly acknowledged the legal standing of the photographs.
I will say that on the instance where identity is known, I believe that should not be public domain. My argument for that has been clear and constant as well.

As to the rest, you have gone over the line according to the forum rules. Derrogitory names are not allowed.

Your using my standards...Impossible...I did not convey them to you.
I went over the line by any civil standards, that I knowingly went to line but I was slick enough not to cross.
Well I stand by what I said, it was not disrespectfull. Because I stopped, simply shows I know restraint.

As to your service being questioned: No, it was not. You were never made fun of, spoken to in a derrogitory manner. Perhaps your senstive about it, I have no idea, nor do I care at this point.
The fact remains, you did question mine! You did admit to that!

As for telling people their values or thoughts...I have said repeatedly that I don't speak for others...you have even acknowledged that. However, you did say that you spoke for the rest of the military on several occassions. Later on you clarified that by saying you spoke for all of combat arms. Again, your professing to speak for others on their values and thoughts...NOT I!!!

Now, if you wish to discuss, the article without going into attacks on me. I would love to focus on that.

[Adlerian Thinker]

your point here is what exactly? That you have the right to tell others they are wrong and I have to accept your views, your moral values. NO, I don't. That fact will never change!

I see that one went right by you. I was mistaken to think you have rudimentary comprehension of the English language. Perhaps Rosetta Stone might help?

You said you have your morality, and I have mine. That's fine. Since you can't have a say in my morality, my morality involves being able to tell others how wrong they are. Your morality must clearly allow mine.

Your twisted world can be very useful in warped situations like this.

[FirmHand135]

So we are to the point where you agree that you and I have seperate moral values....EXCELLENT. You have the right to express your values and views and I have the same right.
You have the right to tell me that I am wrong in mine and I have the same corresponding right to tell you that you are wrong.
Whew, it took you awhile to get here but you finally did!

Now the real debate can go on! FINALLY!!!!!!

[Adlerian Thinker]

I understand in full what he said. It was a very clear argument. Perhaps it is with him who the conversation should be taking place as he has brought a clear and consice point of view to the table.

Pssst. I posted what he said because he supports my few. Trying to make it appear as if he supports you is just sad.

he also very clearly acknowledged the legal standing of the photographs.

Photographs don't have legal standing.

I will say that on the instance where identity is known, I believe that should not be public domain. My argument for that has been clear and constant as well.

Constantly stating a bad argument doesn't make it better. Those bodies are known to the families, and comrades. Whether YOU know them or not is immaterial. You have no right to them. Period.

As to the rest, you have gone over the line according to the forum rules. Derrogitory names are not allowed.

You don't understand the TOS very well. Take it to the mods, be examined yourself. I am confident.

Your using my standards...Impossible...I did not convey them to you.
I went over the line by any civil standards, that I knowingly went to line but I was slick enough not to cross.

Then all you have to do is roll the dice and take the chance. You aren't as slick as you think. Never have been.

Well I stand by what I said, it was not disrespectful. Because I stopped, simply shows I know restraint.

It's good to stand by your disrespectful comments, Take full ownership.

As to your service being questioned: No, it was not. You were never made fun of, spoken to in a derrogitory manner. Perhaps your senstive about it, I have no idea, nor do I care at this point.

I am not sensitive. I spoke openly about it. You snidely questioned why I would get out ofter 12. Even mentioned it was odd. Nice try. But, since I pasted your remarks myself, you can't hide them.[/quote]

The fact remains, you did question mine! You did admit to that!

Internet commandos can make any claims they want. A person who makes such a claim can back it up, or the claim is questioned. You want to keep the details of your service secret, that's up to you, but you do no corroborate that service, calling it into question. It isn't true just because you say so. You lack any credibility.

As for telling people their values or thoughts...I have said repeatedly that I don't speak for others...you have even acknowledged that. However, you did say that you spoke for the rest of the military on several occassions. Later on you clarified that by saying you spoke for all of combat arms. Again, your professing to speak for others on their values and thoughts...NOT I!!!

Having removed yourself from speaking for anybody, you don't get to have a say in who does speak for them. You have effectively removed yourself from the field. Nicely done.

Now, if you wish to discuss, the article without going into attacks on me. I would love to focus on that.

No you wouldn't. You keep going back to this tit for tat.

You have no legal basis for demanding that the photos be shown. You have legal standing to request. The military has the legal standing to reject the request. You have no moral basis. They are not yours to demand.

[FirmHand135]

I said I should be debating him because he was the one who wrote the article, not you. So you support his view, thats fine. Better read his story and you will see he acknowledges my claims. Dont try and twist it. You can't
The right and freedom of information does have legal standing...that does include written and photograhpic doccuments.
Let me further clarify things for you. The main news agencys that reside in the US agreed to pool reporting and restrictions. If a photographer\journalist chooses to go outside of that pool and or agreement, then they will not be protected by the US Military but they do have the right to gather and dissemenate information that they have derived.
That should cover any legal or other question you might have regarding the issue.

yeah, we have covered what I have a right to already...The argument is not a bad argument it is the correct argument. The winning argument. Quit trying to stifle information.

As I said...I do take full ownership of my comments..They were not disrespectfull. They don't even approach yours.

As to asking why after 12 years...sorry, thats your perception. That and the reality are so very far apart. Again, you appear sensitive to the issue. I am sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you should aviod mentioning it in the future.

As to the corroberation, tell me who I need to fax a copy of my discharge papers to at the forum....they can verify it....a neutral party. That should more than suffice.....you do the same. Just to keep it honest. As to what I directly did in the US ARMY...sorry but that add 0 to the arugment! I was in, I served, I was honorably discharged. If you don't like that, go cry to DOD.
After that, yes, I will expect and open and direct appology! Something that I don't think is within you.

As for removing myself from the argument....Sorry I didn't. I just have enough common sense to know that I don't speak for others unless I am directly empowered on their behalf. So no, I havent removed myself from the argument. I am just not letting you to falsely do so for others. If you claim to again...bring proof, 1.3 million signatures will be a nice start.

Now this is done...you and me are done...there is no need for further response....unless its about the specific topic. No other attacks are needed.

[meggers49]

Thank you for your condolences.

I wish I could claim some noble cause, but the truth is I got out after 8 years because I had an opportunity to make a lot of money and my personal greed won out over my patriotism.

I do have repressed anger concerning this issue. I do realize such images would be used by anti-war propaganda. But what angers me is THAT is the reason most people dont want them shown. I rather go toe to toe with the anti-war crowd with the cold hard truth on my side than to hide the truth from them in hopes they run out of ammo. The way I see it, when we have to hid information from opposition, then we become cowards in the fight. I GREATLY value free speech and welcome any debate on this topic. But hiding things ...seems like back door censorship to me.

I do respect everyone opinion on this matter. I do not think there is a cut and dry, better for worse, right answer. If left up to anyone, I think it should be with the soldiers. Let everyone one of them check a box on their military application to show or not show their return home.

I know i'm commenting on an early post in a thread that's got some legs to it, but I can't let this go any longer. I don't know how old you are RM, but I remember the 60's and the VietNam war on the news at dinner every night. The thing I remember was 'the body count'. I'm sorry, but that to me, denegrated the deaths of those who died there. I was small, but I understood that the media weren't using those pictures as tribute and those on the streets didn't use them as such either.

They threw that in the faces of the brave, unappreciated, denegrated military men (and women) who came home. I will not tolerate that happening again. It may start out innocently enough, but nothing stays innocent.

My contempt for the bastards who abused those (and I do consider it abuse) who fought, by spitting on them and using the fallen as a weapon against those who continued to fight...my antipathy toward them is barely containable.

Viewing the flag draped coffins by the gaping, gawking millions as they munch their salads and have their drinks after work is not a fitting way for those who sacrificed all, and the families who sacrificed their loved ones to be received back home.

Let them rest in peace. They've earned it.

I can't continue reading this tread for a while. My heart is breaking.

[skeena11]

How can the average American possibly understand the gravity of this war if they cannot see the sacrifice given by these brave soldiers?
Nothing is asked of the citizens of this country unless they are serving or are giving their loved ones to the cause. If they see the sacrifice of their brave countrymen maybe they will understand that this war is not just something that is happening overseas.

[rhet 2]

How can the average American possibly understand the gravity of this war if they cannot see the sacrifice given by these brave soldiers?
Nothing is asked of the citizens of this country unless they are serving or are giving their loved ones to the cause. If they see the sacrifice of their brave countrymen maybe they will understand that this war is not just something that is happening overseas.

The "gravity of war"? You don't think that's just a tiny bit trite, maybe even hackneyed? May I recommend that you go bop whoever taught you such a Holly Freaking Weird misrepresentation in the nose?

Reality of war: troops are bored to pieces 99% of the time.

They don't NEED instruction in the "gravity of war" -- they live it, study it, train in it, practice 24/7, even in their dreams.

It's mostly blisters on their feet from walking, trying to keep the dirt out of their boots, thinking now and again about the sweat soaking their socks and if they've got a clean dry pair back at camp, sitting on their butts in a crowded humvee going over "roads" that haven't seen a road grater ever in the history of mankind so they get thrown into first the person on their left then the one on their right and forwards and backwards with neck breaking jerks.

It's a hot and miserable lousy weird helmet so they can't wipe the sweat running down the back of their necks, a heavy pack, 120 degree temps with a kevlar vest on to make damned sure the sweat runs down their backs and soaks their shorts to match their socks.

It's MRE's AGAIN, seasoned with sand, AGAIN. Lousy coffee, no handy dandy coin operated coke and candy machine.

It's trying to stay alert when BOREDOM and HEAT make them want to sleep until the sun drops and it gets damned cold again. Itchy blankets, lousy shaving cream and worse soap, shortage of towels, hard bunk, and BOREDOM because they've seen the same movie 19 times and if they have to read that damned paperback mystery novel one more time, they're going to puke, they've read it so many times they know every word in it by heart.

It's daydreaming about home, worrying about the wife, the sweetheart, the kids and whether Little Joe's getting mouthy with his mom again.

It's getting up at the crack of dawn, putting on the same colored clothes you wore yesterday, fretting about whether or not the dirty same old colored clothes are going to get back to them before they're forced to wear this one dirty tomorrow, wondering why mom and dad haven't written in three days and if wife got that last email or not.

It's making damned sure you got your boots shined, your beard shaved, your hair trimmed, you bunk made, the latest damned fool paperwork filled out right so you can get your vote counted in the election back home and get your insurance coverage on the old clunker your wife's driving paid on time and whether or not mom and pop really should take out that reverse mortgage they're talking about and hoping the wife remembers that the ...........

And it's making flipping sure you did what you were supposed to do as perfectly as your team leader insists it needs to be done, like checking on that thrice damned communication gear that weighs six tons and wants to fritz out on you every other patrol.

And it's sitting in that humvee seeing those cute kids running after your patrol, worrying about whether or not they're going to hit the IED your vehicle somehow missed or the damned jerks are going to start firing at you with all those kids clustered around the humvee to make sure THEY get hit with the crap that damned miserable kevlar vest and helmet are supposed to protect you from. And trying not to think that one of those kids could be wired with a bomb, given a choice to either go blow himself and you to hell or watch his mom and dad slaughtered by the *******s that don't give a **** whether that kid lives or dies as long as the bastards get the political power they crave so they can grind still more helpless little kids into mud.

It's rounding a corner, hearing the weeping of ****tered women, and finding a pile of dead bodies, some of them kids, a lot of them women and old men, slaughtered to teach people to accept being ground into mud and pretend to love the bastards for it.

And coming back to base to try to forget those cute kids and those piles of bodies and the stinking flies and the stinking **** those poor suckers are forced to live in, trying to forget for an hour or two that there are monsters in the world who think death's a good thing and LIKE torturing helpless people because it makes the bastards feel like big shots.

And it's knowing -- and refusing to think about -- what happens when your patrol does go over an IED or have to go into a booby-trapped house full of kids and full of the bastards holding those kids hostage.

And it's hearing a BOOM! and finding yourself in the dirt, because you did exactly what you practiced doing over and over and over once upon a time back in the states -- and your heart racing, trying to figure out what the situation is in the middle of a hell of a lot of chaos, and hoping like hell the damned radio is still working so you can get the info you've gotta have from the rest of the damned team and calling for backup and checking on Joe who's wife's expecting their first kid any day now to make damned sure he's in the dirt where he's supposed to be, too, having done exactly the right thing and not the wrong one when the BOOM! took you all by surprise, even though you halfway expected crap to go Boom! though 90% of the time it doesn't and you're just bored and dirty and stinking with sweat.

And sometimes it's knowing that Joe is still in the humvee and he's not moving -- or maybe he is in the dirt not five feet away and he's not got legs anymore.

And then its HATE -- pure, raw, gut-hurting HATE where the one thing you'd like most in all the world is to bash that bastard's face to a bloody mush with your bare fists. Hate you slam the lid on and refuse to let go of because that won't help Joe and would get Jim killed to. So, you lock down your emotions and Do the Drill and out of the corner of your eye watch that tough son of a bitch medic crawl over to Joe and do his thing while you WATCH for that bastard to show his stupid ugly kid killing bastard mug long enough to blow that son of a bitch to hell where he damned well belongs -- and you wish like hell the backup team would MOVE IT 'cause you've got a job to do.

Because you've got a job to do, and you're by God going to do that job RIGHT, come hell or high water.

And you'll miss Joe like fury, hope and pray for his wife and his baby, make sure you check on them when you get home.

And take out all that frustration and rage on the bad coffee, the dirt, the heat, the sweat -- and toss a frisbee with the guys after chow.

"Gravity of war"? Turn off the tv, put down the novels, and listen to the troops tell you about the Reality of Living the Job.

And do NOT use those of us who KNOW the "gravity of war" like little bits of dead meat to wave under noses for Peacenik culture wars in the media.

Because we sit at home stuffing our own fears down inside deep where they don't show and STAYING BUSY so we don't think about the "gravity of war" and focus instead on the coffee and the MRIs and the dirt and the need for nicer soap and how to get our hands on more of those travel sized toiletries motels lay out and getting the mortgage paid on time and making Little Joe do his homework instead of playing with that thrice-damned whatever you call game thingie his dad gave him last time he was home.

So go find some other way to sell the War is Evil crap -- preferably, sell it to the damned baby killers in the Middle East. We already know it -- and we don't need prissy little bombastic *******s like that **** Moore and Cindy Sheehan torturing us with realities they not only don't know but don't give a REAL **** about anyway.

[appletonbill]

The "gravity of war"? You don't think that's just a tiny bit trite, maybe even hackneyed? May I recommend that you go bop whoever taught you such a Holly Freaking Weird misrepresentation in the nose?

Reality of war: troops are bored to pieces 99% of the time.

They don't NEED instruction in the "gravity of war" -- they live it, study it, train in it, practice 24/7, even in their dreams.

It's mostly blisters on their feet from walking, trying to keep the dirt out of their boots, thinking now and again about the sweat soaking their socks and if they've got a clean dry pair back at camp, sitting on their butts in a crowded humvee going over "roads" that haven't seen a road grater ever in the history of mankind so they get thrown into first the person on their left then the one on their right and forwards and backwards with neck breaking jerks.

It's a hot and miserable lousy weird helmet so they can't wipe the sweat running down the back of their necks, a heavy pack, 120 degree temps with a kevlar vest on to make damned sure the sweat runs down their backs and soaks their shorts to match their socks.

It's MRE's AGAIN, seasoned with sand, AGAIN. Lousy coffee, no handy dandy coin operated coke and candy machine.

It's trying to stay alert when BOREDOM and HEAT make them want to sleep until the sun drops and it gets damned cold again. Itchy blankets, lousy shaving cream and worse soap, shortage of towels, hard bunk, and BOREDOM because they've seen the same movie 19 times and if they have to read that damned paperback mystery novel one more time, they're going to puke, they've read it so many times they know every word in it by heart.

It's daydreaming about home, worrying about the wife, the sweetheart, the kids and whether Little Joe's getting mouthy with his mom again.

It's getting up at the crack of dawn, putting on the same colored clothes you wore yesterday, fretting about whether or not the dirty same old colored clothes are going to get back to them before they're forced to wear this one dirty tomorrow, wondering why mom and dad haven't written in three days and if wife got that last email or not.

It's making damned sure you got your boots shined, your beard shaved, your hair trimmed, you bunk made, the latest damned fool paperwork filled out right so you can get your vote counted in the election back home and get your insurance coverage on the old clunker your wife's driving paid on time and whether or not mom and pop really should take out that reverse mortgage they're talking about and hoping the wife remembers that the ...........

And it's making flipping sure you did what you were supposed to do as perfectly as your team leader insists it needs to be done, like checking on that thrice damned communication gear that weighs six tons and wants to fritz out on you every other patrol.

And it's sitting in that humvee seeing those cute kids running after your patrol, worrying about whether or not they're going to hit the IED your vehicle somehow missed or the damned jerks are going to start firing at you with all those kids clustered around the humvee to make sure THEY get hit with the crap that damned miserable kevlar vest and helmet are supposed to protect you from. And trying not to think that one of those kids could be wired with a bomb, given a choice to either go blow himself and you to hell or watch his mom and dad slaughtered by the *******s that don't give a **** whether that kid lives or dies as long as the bastards get the political power they crave so they can grind still more helpless little kids into mud.

It's rounding a corner, hearing the weeping of ****tered women, and finding a pile of dead bodies, some of them kids, a lot of them women and old men, slaughtered to teach people to accept being ground into mud and pretend to love the bastards for it.

And coming back to base to try to forget those cute kids and those piles of bodies and the stinking flies and the stinking **** those poor suckers are forced to live in, trying to forget for an hour or two that there are monsters in the world who think death's a good thing and LIKE torturing helpless people because it makes the bastards feel like big shots.

And it's knowing -- and refusing to think about -- what happens when your patrol does go over an IED or have to go into a booby-trapped house full of kids and full of the bastards holding those kids hostage.

And it's hearing a BOOM! and finding yourself in the dirt, because you did exactly what you practiced doing over and over and over once upon a time back in the states -- and your heart racing, trying to figure out what the situation is in the middle of a hell of a lot of chaos, and hoping like hell the damned radio is still working so you can get the info you've gotta have from the rest of the damned team and calling for backup and checking on Joe who's wife's expecting their first kid any day now to make damned sure he's in the dirt where he's supposed to be, too, having done exactly the right thing and not the wrong one when the BOOM! took you all by surprise, even though you halfway expected crap to go Boom! though 90% of the time it doesn't and you're just bored and dirty and stinking with sweat.

And sometimes it's knowing that Joe is still in the humvee and he's not moving -- or maybe he is in the dirt not five feet away and he's not got legs anymore.

And then its HATE -- pure, raw, gut-hurting HATE where the one thing you'd like most in all the world is to bash that bastard's face to a bloody mush with your bare fists. Hate you slam the lid on and refuse to let go of because that won't help Joe and would get Jim killed to. So, you lock down your emotions and Do the Drill and out of the corner of your eye watch that tough son of a bitch medic crawl over to Joe and do his thing while you WATCH for that bastard to show his stupid ugly kid killing bastard mug long enough to blow that son of a bitch to hell where he damned well belongs -- and you wish like hell the backup team would MOVE IT 'cause you've got a job to do.

Because you've got a job to do, and you're by God going to do that job RIGHT, come hell or high water.

And you'll miss Joe like fury, hope and pray for his wife and his baby, make sure you check on them when you get home.

And take out all that frustration and rage on the bad coffee, the dirt, the heat, the sweat -- and toss a frisbee with the guys after chow.

"Gravity of war"? Turn off the tv, put down the novels, and listen to the troops tell you about the Reality of Living the Job.

And do NOT use those of us who KNOW the "gravity of war" like little bits of dead meat to wave under noses for Peacenik culture wars in the media.

Because we sit at home stuffing our own fears down inside deep where they don't show and STAYING BUSY so we don't think about the "gravity of war" and focus instead on the coffee and the MRIs and the dirt and the need for nicer soap and how to get our hands on more of those travel sized toiletries motels lay out and getting the mortgage paid on time and making Little Joe do his homework instead of playing with that thrice-damned whatever you call game thingie his dad gave him last time he was home.

So go find some other way to sell the War is Evil crap -- preferably, sell it to the damned baby killers in the Middle East. We already know it -- and we don't need prissy little bombastic *******s like that **** Moore and Cindy Sheehan torturing us with realities they not only don't know but don't give a REAL **** about anyway.

Thank-you. We all needed to hear this, and remember the hardships endured by our soldiers. These guys are the best of the best, and I'm proud of them.

[appletonbill]

Join the military wear a uniform and you will understand, Rented Mule..... Heros do it because they love our country, they do not fight on emotion, something the liberals seem to thrive on.

10-4 :flag:

[Adlerian Thinker]

So we are to the point where you agree that you and I have seperate moral values....EXCELLENT. You have the right to express your values and views and I have the same right.
You have the right to tell me that I am wrong in mine and I have the same corresponding right to tell you that you are wrong.
Whew, it took you awhile to get here but you finally did!

Now the real debate can go on! FINALLY!!!!!!

I've been there the whole time. YOU kept trying to tell me I couldn't have mine.

[rhet 2]

Thank-you. We all needed to hear this, and remember the hardships endured by our soldiers. These guys are the best of the best, and I'm proud of them.

They DO THE JOB -- do it to the very best of their ability -- and do it with Pride, with Dignity, and with Honor.

They are the Best Citizens of the Best nation on earth.

And I'm proud to call you, too, "friend and neighbor."

We watch their backs, 'cause that's our job as civilians, yes?

[Adlerian Thinker]

I said I should be debating him because he was the one who wrote the article, not you. So you support his view, thats fine. Better read his story and you will see he acknowledges my claims. Dont try and twist it. You can't.

You are the one twisting. I have an excellent grasp of English, thank you very much.

The right and freedom of information does have legal standing...that does include written and photograhpic doccuments.

As is the legal precedent of the military to restrict the media when it comes to the military. Man you are really struggling, cognitively!

Let me further clarify things for you. The main news agencys that reside in the US agreed to pool reporting and restrictions. If a photographer\journalist chooses to go outside of that pool and or agreement, then they will not be protected by the US Military but they do have the right to gather and dissemenate information that they have derived.
That should cover any legal or other question you might have regarding the issue.

And if they don't agree, they aren't allowed into a combat area. It's just that simple. That should take care of any further legal confusion on your part.

yeah, we have covered what I have a right to already...The argument is not a bad argument it is the correct argument. The winning argument. Quit trying to stifle information.

Quit trying to use the dead. That's just sick.

As I said...I do take full ownership of my comments..They were not disrespectfull. They don't even approach yours.

Irrelevant. They WERE disrespectful.

As to asking why after 12 years...sorry, thats your perception. That and the reality are so very far apart. Again, you appear sensitive to the issue. I am sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you should aviod mentioning it in the future.

I mention it all the time, which is why your question was curious, and disrespectful. You don't dictate what I do, or don't mention, especially given the nebulous nature of your service. Continuing to try just makes you look sadder and sadder by the moment. I can mention it because I am proud of it. Not so you.

As to the corroberation, tell me who I need to fax a copy of my discharge papers to at the forum....they can verify it....a neutral party. That should more than suffice.....you do the same. Just to keep it honest. As to what I directly did in the US ARMY...sorry but that add 0 to the arugment! I was in, I served, I was honorably discharged. If you don't like that, go cry to DOD.
After that, yes, I will expect and open and direct appology! Something that I don't think is within you.

An apology, because you are less than forthright? Hardly. You don't apologize for your slur against me, and then expect the same consideration? Hypocritical much? :naughty:

As for removing myself from the argument....Sorry I didn't. I just have enough common sense to know that I don't speak for others unless I am directly empowered on their behalf. So no, I havent removed myself from the argument. I am just not letting you to falsely do so for others. If you claim to again...bring proof, 1.3 million signatures will be a nice start.

You continue to waste bandwidth with facetious arguments, but yes, you;ve removed yourself long ago. Now you just continue the tit for tat you say you don't want to do. Pavlov would be very proud! your hypocrisy is showing again. You are attempting to tell me what I can, and can't do. :naughty:

Now this is done...you and me are done...there is no need for further response....unless its about the specific topic. No other attacks are needed.

Yes, you said that before. Why should I believe you now? :rolleyes:

You. Do. Not. Have. A. Right. To. The. Honored. Fallen.

[appletonbill]

Little things mean a lot to soldiers. Packages from home are a big thing. Shampoo, wipes, candy (no chocolate, it melts at 100 degrees), CD'S, DVD's, magazines (sports, cars, etc.).

[Adlerian Thinker]

Endless babble removed.

Hmmm. It suddenly occurs to me that your posting style is VERY reminiscent of a previous poster.

I shall ponder this, ask around.

I'd hate to think you were retreading, or had a previous screen name at Hannity.

[skeena11]

rhet 2,

With all due respect, I suggest you re-read my post.
I am some-what aware of the boredom of military life. Although I am not familliar with the combat part of it. I served in the navy for seven years.

But, I was saying that the average American (and maybe I wasn't quite clear on this point. I meant non-military) had no idea what was happening over there unless they were serving, had served or had family or friends serving there.
For those who are not connected by friends or family, seeing the flag covered caskets might serve as an eye-opener, make them realize that there is a war going on.

I did not mean for my post to sound like I was saying war was evil. Maybe war is hell. But who could argue with that?

That being said, I think your post was very well said and informative. I'm new here but I will definitley be looking out for your posts. I'm just sorry that my post gave you the wrong idea about what I was trying to say.
I'll try to be more careful about how I word things from now on.

[meggers49]

How can the average American possibly understand the gravity of this war if they cannot see the sacrifice given by these brave soldiers?
Nothing is asked of the citizens of this country unless they are serving or are giving their loved ones to the cause. If they see the sacrifice of their brave countrymen maybe they will understand that this war is not just something that is happening overseas.

How can the average American understand the gravity of anything if they haven't experienced it? I understand the gravity of earthquakes and tornados and volcanoes but have never experienced them.

People are gawkers. That doesn't mean they are looking to understand. They are looking for curiosity. They might tsk, but they just move on, unless it effects them specifically. The grief a family suffers is not made real to people who do not know the family by watching it on TV.

While I'm sorry for the loss others have felt, and know their lives will never be the same - I cried with my friend whose son was killed in Iraq, I have not cried for others.

[rhet 2]

rhet 2,

With all due respect, I suggest you re-read my post.
I am some-what aware of the boredom of military life. Although I am not familliar with the combat part of it. I served in the navy for seven years.

But, I was saying that the average American (and maybe I wasn't quite clear on this point. I meant non-military) had no idea what was happening over there unless they were serving, had served or had family or friends serving there.
For those who are not connected by friends or family, seeing the flag covered caskets might serve as an eye-opener, make them realize that there is a war going on.

I did not mean for my post to sound like I was saying war was evil. Maybe war is hell. But who could argue with that?

That being said, I think your post was very well said and informative. I'm new here but I will definitley be looking out for your posts. I'm just sorry that my post gave you the wrong idea about what I was trying to say.
I'll try to be more careful about how I word things from now on.

Sorry if I jumped to the wrong conclusion, then. And welcome to AAW.

Personally, most Americans have served or at least had friends or family who have.

Educating the general public about the realities of military life is NOT what these people want to do.

They seek to make money selling sensationalist anti-war propaganda, bashing hell out of the Cause these men have dedicated their lives serving.

And the body of a troop belongs to only one person -- the troop. He and HE ALONE has a right to control what happens to his body when he's gone. Even widows honor their loved one's last wishes, if they're known -- and struggle to guess what he would have wanted if he didn't tell them to their face while he could.

He and he alone has the right to determine how his body is used -- and that means he trusts his family, trusts his CO to see that it is treated with respect, with compassion for his family, and with honor -- not used as a damned hyper-sensationalized culture war placard for the Peaceniks who don't know and don't care who he was as a PERSON and how much injury they cause his family.

If the Peaceniks want to use a troop's body to sell their political bs, let them FIRST get the troop's signature on a notarized contract giving them the right to do so.

[skeena11]

meggers49,

That is the point I am trying to make. You have SEEN the destruction caused by earthquakes, tornadoes and volcanoes.
You have cried with your friend who lost a love one.
You don't need to see the caskets coming back from the middle east.
What i am saying is those who don't know people who have lost family, those who haven't lost family, should be MADE to watch the caskets containing the brave young men and women who fought so they can carry on with their mundane lives.
How else can they feel the loss that this whole country SHOULD feel?

[skeena11]

rhet 2,

Although we agree on the main points, I have to disagree with one of your statements.
Kind of.
Actually I don't disagree when you say, "the Peaceniks want to use a troop's body to sell their political bs,", but sometimes the right wing uses them for their agenda. I haven't seen it here yet but some of the politicians don't sound sincere when they talk about the troops.
Everything else you say sounds right as far as I am concerned.
You sound like you were in the military. Were you?
I told you I was in the Navy, But I think I didn't say I was in the Canadian Navy. ( Kind of the same thing as the US Navy but smaller and fewer boats.)

[FirmHand135]

Hmmm. It suddenly occurs to me that your posting style is VERY reminiscent of a previous poster.

I shall ponder this, ask around.

I'd hate to think you were retreading, or had a previous screen name at Hannity.


No need to ponder, to ask around. if your position is so strong..BE BOLD, ATTACK FROM THE FRONT.
The forum surely has the ability to pull the IP and MAC ADDYs that are associated with each user. I would think that typically speaking that would suffice for id as to retread. But in this case, I will make an exception and offer the proper forum personnel my name and address and any other needed information needed to silence these false and empty accusations.

[FirmHand135]

meggers49,

That is the point I am trying to make. You have SEEN the destruction caused by earthquakes, tornadoes and volcanoes.
You have cried with your friend who lost a love one.
You don't need to see the caskets coming back from the middle east.
What i am saying is those who don't know people who have lost family, those who haven't lost family, should be MADE to watch the caskets containing the brave young men and women who fought so they can carry on with their mundane lives.
How else can they feel the loss that this whole country SHOULD feel?

An excellent point, when Katrina hit New Orleans, most didn't understand the devastation of the area until the pictures came forth. Then we were all shocked and saddened! In fact, some of those pictures were of dead people, not in flag drapped caskets but floating in the water, left in their homes...so on and so forth.
We are a visual country, we need to see the cost with our own eyes to understand the cost.

[rhet 2]

rhet 2,

Although we agree on the main points, I have to disagree with one of your statements.
Kind of.
Actually I don't disagree when you say, "the Peaceniks want to use a troop's body to sell their political bs,", but sometimes the right wing uses them for their agenda. I haven't seen it here yet but some of the politicians don't sound sincere when they talk about the troops.
Everything else you say sounds right as far as I am concerned.
You sound like you were in the military. Were you?
I told you I was in the Navy, But I think I didn't say I was in the Canadian Navy. ( Kind of the same thing as the US Navy but smaller and fewer boats.)

Air Force LVN -- Offutt -- SAC -- Nam.

There's a difference between duty conditions in any of the Western military?

"Hurry up and wait" and "suck it up, this ain't no Paris Hilton, you know" -- seems fairly universal.

You've got a point about pols on the right and the left, both, being hypocrites in using the troops for their own campaign huff and guff. Hadn't seen the parallels until you mention it. Thanks for the eye-opener. Worth thinking on, that it is.

Thing is, they wouldn't feel anything -- just sit and stare at the Idiot Box and wish "they" would hurry up and get back to something important, like the reruns of American Idol.

[j2_krazy]

I'm sorry but I think we need these pictures people have to know that it’s our friends, neighbors, brothers, sisters, moms, dads, sons and daughters who are paying the ultimate price for us. I am tired of people and the press refering to us as a number or a statistic. I believe this softens the war and makes people less aware of what is REALLY happening.I served over there and was fortunate enough to return without any major injuries. I hope to return as a photographer, I believe if people saw what a war truly was like I believe less people would support it and that there would be fewer wars.

[meggers49]

meggers49,

That is the point I am trying to make. You have SEEN the destruction caused by earthquakes, tornadoes and volcanoes.
You have cried with your friend who lost a love one.
You don't need to see the caskets coming back from the middle east.
What i am saying is those who don't know people who have lost family, those who haven't lost family, should be MADE to watch the caskets containing the brave young men and women who fought so they can carry on with their mundane lives.
How else can they feel the loss that this whole country SHOULD feel?

what i'm trying to tell you is, seeing it on tv won't make them feel anything. as far as the average person is concerned, they could be empty boxes with flags on them. They don't see them as people in there and they won't feel what you want them to feel because of it.

beyond which..... why are you limiting it to military? is it because you are opposed to this war? what about showing coffins of every murder victim in the country this year? according to the life/death clock, there have been 1529 homicides using firearms (almost entirely illegally owned) in the country thus far this year. That doesn't include those killed with knives or other weapons. Thus far military casualties in 2009, 22.


In all of 2008, since the war began 3/19/2003, there have been 4067killed in Iraq and Afghanistan (as of when these numbers were published). While military dead should be noted, and people should understand what this war costs beyond money, your efforts would be better spent trying to save the lives of the civilians in this country who are being killed by their countrymen as we are killing ourselves much faster than the enemy is killing us.

[meggers49]

An excellent point, when Katrina hit New Orleans, most didn't understand the devastation of the area until the pictures came forth. Then we were all shocked and saddened! In fact, some of those pictures were of dead people, not in flag drapped caskets but floating in the water, left in their homes...so on and so forth.
We are a visual country, we need to see the cost with our own eyes to understand the cost.

How many people's lives changed because of it? How many did anything a whit different than they did the day before they saw those pictures?

We are visual, but we look, we say, gee isn't that too bad and we move on.

The only pictures I ever saw on tv that actually moved me happened on 9/11. That is because I was watching as it happened and it was an attack on my homeland. My heart went out to the families, but my heart broke for my country.

People are insulated and they are desensatized by seeing this stuff on tv all the time. Show the coffins and soon no one will be paying any more attention to it than to say.....oh...more coffins. means nothing to them.

you are ascribing more depth to the American people than they are willing to offer on a daily basis. In a crisis, yes, but daily, it becomes a norm and not evidence of a problem.

[Adlerian Thinker]

I'm sorry but I think we need these pictures people have to know that it’s our friends, neighbors, brothers, sisters, moms, dads, sons and daughters who are paying the ultimate price for us. I am tired of people and the press refering to us as a number or a statistic. I believe this softens the war and makes people less aware of what is REALLY happening.I served over there and was fortunate enough to return without any major injuries. I hope to return as a photographer, I believe if people saw what a war truly was like I believe less people would support it and that there would be fewer wars.

The pictures are not needed to do that.

People do not support wars because they LIKE war.

[mrclean]

People have a right to see the consequences of misguided military adventures.

[Adlerian Thinker]

From BlackFive: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/02/chance-phelps-l.html

" From: Kelly BGen John F
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 5:38 AM
To: Strobl LtCol Michael R
Subject: Trip Report

Mike,

I just read your trip report forwarded to me by CO, 11 th Marines, and having done the kind of duty you report about I know the emotions and pride. I was with the Marine you escorted, nearly right next to him, when he was killed instantly along side a road named ASR San Juan . The closest village is Jurf as Sakhr, and it sits right on the Euphrates River with Fallujah 25kms to the N, and Baghdad perhaps 45 to the NNE. This is an ugly little section of Iraq and full of extremists that hate us for some reason. Don’t know why, but that’s the way it is. We were in five vehicles and were caught in a complex ambush. They initiated it with an IED that caught the lead vehicle, disabled it, and wounded two of the three Marines inside. After the IED there was immediate massed MG, AK, RPG, and mortar fire that certainly defined for me the term “withering.” The second vehicle was also caught in the kill zone, but they it did a 180 and out – two WIA aboard from the initial volley. The third vehicle was outside the KZ, but seeing #1 disabled and the Marines in extremis drove in, dismounted, set up a base fire, and started to work the comms. The other vehicles dismounted outside the KZ and began to seek the flank of the ambush. Your Marine’s vehicle was called forward to try and close the back door and prevent the guerrillas escape so we could kill them, and after accomplishing the maneuver and putting his gun in action, he was hit. Over time we shot our way out of it. We collected up wounded, dead, and all equipment from the destroyed HMMWV, then walked out of the KZ shooting the entire time until we were clear. All the Marines in the patrol did what we trained them to do, did it instinctively, and as if they were born to it. Every one of them returned fire, moved to the sound of the guns, and took action. There was certainly nothing special about any of them, by the way, other than they were MARINES.

Your charge started this return home with the same kind of reverence and honor you describe in your trip report, only in a very, very different way. When we rushed into the combat base in Mahmudiyah it wasn’t for him, we knew he was already with God, but for the WIAs we had aboard. The entire camp knew he was with us, however, and they all stood tall and were proud to simply be in the same **** hole with him and doing what they joined to do. The Navy Docs went right to it with the WIAs and saved lives, at the same time we removed him from the vehicle it’s turret having been immediately manned by another Marine who’d himself been hit in the face, but pressed with the mission and the gun never went quiet in the process. The dead Marine, only just out of high school last May, was of course filthy dirty and his uniform vastly different than the one you saw him in. He obviously was not wearing any ribbons, but did have his flak and all the other accoutrements of a field Marine on when we removed him. He was also still soaked from the unbelievable sweating a fight brings on. His buddies spent a few quiet moments and we talked about the loss, and what he meant – what he was like – to them all. Everyone offered a vignette, most were silly or funny, but that’s the kind of guy he was. We then withdrew as there was a detailed critique to conduct (actions on contact, who did what, what worked, what didn’t work, what could have done better, and all the what ifs that go with learning the trade and getting better), and then the platoon commander (himself quite a guy) got right to it as there were also weapons to clean, and preps to be made for the next patrol. Life goes on doesn’t it. This all took place, by the way, at about 1500 local on Good Friday. Thought you should know the rest of the story. Thanks for taking care of our Marine.

Semper Fidelis,

Kelly

Tell me the Marines here want Chance's body pictured and broadcast so that the American public can know the "true cost of war."

[Adlerian Thinker]

People have a right to see the consequences of misguided military adventures.

And where does this right come from, your butt?

[mrclean]

And where does this right come from, your butt?


Ooh, you're an angry little man, aren't you.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Ooh, you're an angry little man, aren't you.

Ooh, you're a condescending little man, aren't you?

Avoiding the question gives me the answer I suspected.

[skeena11]

megger49,

We arn't asdifferent as you think. I agree with you that every person who dies should be seen in the media.
The population of this country has grown accostummed to the body count.
If we see every coffin, maybe we would try harder to prevent the killing.
Look at the rest of the world for a minute.
There are many more people dying from violence here than the rest of the civilized countries.
Thims is one of if not the greatest countries on this planet.
Why do so many have to die?
It's because people here don't care that much. That's wrong. I think.
Why can't the people here stop killing?
Look at gun violence compared to other civilized countries.
Of course we have to have gun ownership rights, but why do so many people of this country have to die from guns?Something has to be done.

[Adlerian Thinker]

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=48803641&postcount=19

[FirmHand135]

Ooh, you're a condescending little man, aren't you?

Avoiding the question gives me the answer I suspected.


We the American people have the right to review the people and the actions that are done on our behalf. It is the American people that are held accountable for the actions. Being such, our great constitution, what every member of the military swears to uphold and defend, gives us the right to question.

[Adlerian Thinker]

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWY3NWVjNDVkZTNlOTNkZmMzM2I5ZjYxNTY4ZDExODg=
"Journalists love to highlight how the policy seems designed to prevent political damage. But they never highlight how easily they believe in using them to infliect political damage. Casket pictures don't advance the news story — the Department of Defense doesn't claim that no one is dying in Iraq. It doesn't leave the dead anonymous. Casket pictures are one way the media manipulate with images. The networks last night did not note how TV elites used to highlight these images. I still remember CNN covering a Bush Uno press conference with a two-shot of caskets at Dover AFB. Don't tell me they weren't making a little live political commercial."

Exactly. You folks don't have the right to those bodies, or anything to do with those bodies.

Let them be. They've earned the rest, and the peace.

[Adlerian Thinker]

"What they are trying to do is not enlighten the citizenry, but badger it into submission, thinking that if they keep hammering the subject of casualties to death, eventually the public will grasp their enlightened point of view."
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ODJhZjQ1NTNjOWYyNWMyOTY1NDVmYjQ0NGFlYzQxOGE=

Also in that article? The policy on not televising the caskets originated in 1991. Who was President at that time?

Have the noobs that have shown up here to attempt to make their ghoulish points taken THIS LONG to come here to come here and complain about it?

[meggers49]

From BlackFive: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/02/chance-phelps-l.html

" From: Kelly BGen John F
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 5:38 AM
To: Strobl LtCol Michael R
Subject: Trip Report

Mike,

I just read your trip report forwarded to me by CO, 11 th Marines, and having done the kind of duty you report about I know the emotions and pride. I was with the Marine you escorted, nearly right next to him, when he was killed instantly along side a road named ASR San Juan . The closest village is Jurf as Sakhr, and it sits right on the Euphrates River with Fallujah 25kms to the N, and Baghdad perhaps 45 to the NNE. This is an ugly little section of Iraq and full of extremists that hate us for some reason. Don’t know why, but that’s the way it is. We were in five vehicles and were caught in a complex ambush. They initiated it with an IED that caught the lead vehicle, disabled it, and wounded two of the three Marines inside. After the IED there was immediate massed MG, AK, RPG, and mortar fire that certainly defined for me the term “withering.” The second vehicle was also caught in the kill zone, but they it did a 180 and out – two WIA aboard from the initial volley. The third vehicle was outside the KZ, but seeing #1 disabled and the Marines in extremis drove in, dismounted, set up a base fire, and started to work the comms. The other vehicles dismounted outside the KZ and began to seek the flank of the ambush. Your Marine’s vehicle was called forward to try and close the back door and prevent the guerrillas escape so we could kill them, and after accomplishing the maneuver and putting his gun in action, he was hit. Over time we shot our way out of it. We collected up wounded, dead, and all equipment from the destroyed HMMWV, then walked out of the KZ shooting the entire time until we were clear. All the Marines in the patrol did what we trained them to do, did it instinctively, and as if they were born to it. Every one of them returned fire, moved to the sound of the guns, and took action. There was certainly nothing special about any of them, by the way, other than they were MARINES.

Your charge started this return home with the same kind of reverence and honor you describe in your trip report, only in a very, very different way. When we rushed into the combat base in Mahmudiyah it wasn’t for him, we knew he was already with God, but for the WIAs we had aboard. The entire camp knew he was with us, however, and they all stood tall and were proud to simply be in the same **** hole with him and doing what they joined to do. The Navy Docs went right to it with the WIAs and saved lives, at the same time we removed him from the vehicle it’s turret having been immediately manned by another Marine who’d himself been hit in the face, but pressed with the mission and the gun never went quiet in the process. The dead Marine, only just out of high school last May, was of course filthy dirty and his uniform vastly different than the one you saw him in. He obviously was not wearing any ribbons, but did have his flak and all the other accoutrements of a field Marine on when we removed him. He was also still soaked from the unbelievable sweating a fight brings on. His buddies spent a few quiet moments and we talked about the loss, and what he meant – what he was like – to them all. Everyone offered a vignette, most were silly or funny, but that’s the kind of guy he was. We then withdrew as there was a detailed critique to conduct (actions on contact, who did what, what worked, what didn’t work, what could have done better, and all the what ifs that go with learning the trade and getting better), and then the platoon commander (himself quite a guy) got right to it as there were also weapons to clean, and preps to be made for the next patrol. Life goes on doesn’t it. This all took place, by the way, at about 1500 local on Good Friday. Thought you should know the rest of the story. Thanks for taking care of our Marine.

Semper Fidelis,

Kelly

Tell me the Marines here want Chance's body pictured and broadcast so that the American public can know the "true cost of war."

who needs a picture of a coffin? I don't. I'm proud and I'm heart broken and I'm crying. For the Marine and for his compatriots. If people can't "get it" from something like this will pictures of coffins matter more? God rest you, Marine. semper fi.

[FirmHand135]

[quote=Adlerian Thinker;49477471]"What they are trying to do is not enlighten the citizenry, but badger it into submission, thinking that if they keep hammering the subject of casualties to death, eventually the public will grasp their enlightened point of view."
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ODJhZjQ1NTNjOWYyNWMyOTY1NDVmYjQ0NGFlYzQxOGE=

Also in that article? The policy on not televising the caskets originated in 1991. Who was President at that time?

Have the noobs that have shown up here to attempt to make their ghoulish points taken THIS LONG to come here to come here and complain about it?[/quote

The president in 1991 was George H W Bush. If you would like I can prove that to you as well.

Now, referring to the piece from NRO which you have highlighted.
Former Army chief of Staff, General Shelton said that before the any American War it must pas what he called the Dover test. Will America still support the war when they see the dead service men and women coming home.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Pictures are better than words, right?

"Maybe so. But that is a new standard for the media, one that is rarely applied evenly in all cases. If showing snapshots and images reveals the truth better than words, then why do networks refuse to show "so-called" partial-birth abortions? After all, that whole debate is over the nature of the procedure. Going to the videotape would surely settle it better than any news anchor."
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTVhNGQ3ZDk0NGUzZWVhODJmZTkwODVmY2M1N2I1YTM=

Did they show the jumpers on 9/11? Did they show the Nick Berg, or Danny Pearl videos? We can't really know the true horrors of jihadi beheadings unless we see it, right?

[meggers49]

megger49,

We arn't asdifferent as you think. I agree with you that every person who dies should be seen in the media.
The population of this country has grown accostummed to the body count.
If we see every coffin, maybe we would try harder to prevent the killing.
Look at the rest of the world for a minute.
There are many more people dying from violence here than the rest of the civilized countries.
Thims is one of if not the greatest countries on this planet.
Why do so many have to die?
It's because people here don't care that much. That's wrong. I think.
Why can't the people here stop killing?
Look at gun violence compared to other civilized countries.
Of course we have to have gun ownership rights, but why do so many people of this country have to die from guns?Something has to be done.

No, Skeena, we are very,very different.

You look at the rest of the world. The rest of the world, which has lower homicide rates have that for 2 reasons, and it's not because they're more civilized or care more. It's because a) they live mostly under repressive governments who do not allow behaviors that go along with freedom. Do you think for one minute there is another country that incarcerates the number of people we do? the answer is NO. and why is that? and B)because the majority are executed. no appeal, often no trial. And if you think that there aren't murders happening in the other countries that aren't repressive, you're wrong.

What has to be done here? unfetter the law enforcement and allow them to enforce the laws. allow the citizens to defend themselves. The cities with the highest homicide rates are those that have the most stringent gun laws. interesting, huh? that means, the bad guys have the guns and are using them, the good guys are the victims.

We have to re-instill morals. RIGHT AND WRONG. murder is wrong. sloth is wrong.

This has nothing to do with flags on coffins. They are seperate issues that people try to make the same thing.

We do not need to see a flag draped coffin to understand the cost of war.

The something that has to be done is to make the badguys the problem and not our understanding of it. It's to stop making excuses on why things happen. If the badguys didn't have guns, they'd kill people with knives or bats or tire irons or skillets or cars or railroad ties or or or or or. What has to be done is re-instill values but showing coffins.......ANY coffins won't help.

[Adlerian Thinker]

From the same source as previous:
"Peter Preston, the former editor of the Guardian, once told his reporters that there would be no bonuses for producing a scoop that got somebody killed, according to the Newseum's website. "It is not necessarily a question of patriotism, it is a sense of realism that you don't want to put the lives of your fellow countrymen at risk.""

So this Englishman recognizes that pictures have propaganda value for the enemy, as the flag-draped caskets of fallen heroes have done.

So, in order to fulfill this nebulous "right" to see the pictures, you are selective, you are self-serving, and this leads to a lack of caring of the consequences for your desire.

That's nice.

[Adlerian Thinker]

who needs a picture of a coffin? I don't. I'm proud and I'm heart broken and I'm crying. For the Marine and for his compatriots. If people can't "get it" from something like this will pictures of coffins matter more? God rest you, Marine. semper fi.

I know you are proud and heart-broken. But he died for, and with, his brothers, and he was not alone.

Now, if we can just get people to leave his fallen brothers alone.

[skeena11]

meggers49,

I am a Canadian citizen living here in the USA.
(I am starting to get U.S. citizen next week.)

Canada doesn't have a repressive gov't and they don't execute people.

I don't understand what you mean.

[FirmHand135]

I am not sure how an editor not paying for a scoop which resulted in one being killed translates people getting killed because of a flag drapped casket was shown. More over I would argue that showing those pics might prevent more of those flag drapped caskets from happening. But thats just a view point.

[FirmHand135]

Pictures are better than words, right?

"Maybe so. But that is a new standard for the media, one that is rarely applied evenly in all cases. If showing snapshots and images reveals the truth better than words, then why do networks refuse to show "so-called" partial-birth abortions? After all, that whole debate is over the nature of the procedure. Going to the videotape would surely settle it better than any news anchor."
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTVhNGQ3ZDk0NGUzZWVhODJmZTkwODVmY2M1N2I1YTM=

Did they show the jumpers on 9/11? Did they show the Nick Berg, or Danny Pearl videos? We can't really know the true horrors of jihadi beheadings unless we see it, right?


Your starting to understand the power of the message.
As for abortion, its not part of this argument. Any attempt to include it in this argument is wrong. Just an attempt to deflect from the argument.
As to the jumpers on 9/11. Yes, it was shown. The tragedy of it all. It was shown.
As to the beheading, yes, the footage was shown. the graphic parts were censored. And to your point on that, conservative groups, the former president inlcuded took great pains to cover the topic, to use it for their own politicol agenda. Which is often the case in tragic events. It is something that gets and holds the publics attention for that time period.
yes, I still remember the viedo of Danny Pearl!

[rhet 2]

I know you are proud and heart-broken. But he died for, and with, his brothers, and he was not alone.

Now, if we can just get people to leave his fallen brothers alone.


Just say NO!

And make it stick.

No matter how the spoiled brats weasel and whine and try to wriggle out of adult social responsibilities and scream and rage till they get what they want regardless of the damage they do to others.

Michael Moore and the Pinkeestas can stick that NO! up their fat prissy mythology locked down asses.

Time for Hippies to get socialized and find out They DON'T Own the World.

[Pollyanna]

who needs a picture of a coffin? I don't. I'm proud and I'm heart broken and I'm crying. For the Marine and for his compatriots. If people can't "get it" from something like this will pictures of coffins matter more? God rest you, Marine. semper fi.

Absolutely. We will mourn for these patriots and :pray: for their families in their trying time. I do not need to see a coffin to make it real. Everytime I hear X number of casualties I know that's someone's son or daughter not coming home.

[RWReaganfan]

meggers49,

I am a Canadian citizen living here in the USA.
(I am starting to get U.S. citizen next week.)

Canada doesn't have a repressive gov't and they don't execute people.

I don't understand what you mean.


Canada's entire population is about the same as California. We have another 270 million more than the Canucks have.

[rhet 2]

Absolutely. We will mourn for these patriots and :pray: for their families in their trying time. I do not need to see a coffin to make it real. Everytime I hear X number of casualties I know that's someone's son or daughter not coming home.

Precisely so.

Especially since every psychological study for ages show that exposure to graphic images of death actually DESENSITIZES people, not the reverse.

Empathy requires the ability to imagine, not the ability to actually see.

I can imagine the pain and grief -- and the honors rendered at Dover. Much stronger than actually seeing it over and over and over and over and over ad nauseam until the image is so habituated, it's not even there to the conscious mind anymore.

[FirmHand135]

I am suprised that nobody has responded to the Dover test argument. Its a sound a rational argument. In checking somethings out I looked at the wikiepedia for Dover Test, to my suprise, along with the definition I also found two pictures covering the subject in which we are debating. Both pictures were taken by the US Military and had been posted on DoD websites. That rattles pretty hard at the argument which has been waged for privacy. And before anyone makes any assesrtions that those photos were obtained in a wrongfull manner....they were released by the DoD.

[rhet 2]

I am suprised that nobody has responded to the Dover test argument. Its a sound a rational argument. In checking somethings out I looked at the wikiepedia for Dover Test, to my suprise, along with the definition I also found two pictures covering the subject in which we are debating. Both pictures were taken by the US Military and had been posted on DoD websites. That rattles pretty hard at the argument which has been waged for privacy. And before anyone makes any assesrtions that those photos were obtained in a wrongfull manner....they were released by the DoD.

WITH THE TROOP FAMILY'S CONSENT.

You want those photos, ASK THE TROOP AND ASK THE FAMILY

Their bodies -- NOT YOURS

[FirmHand135]

rhet2,
Your missing the point here...It was the Air Force who took the pictures. The pictures were posted on various web sites within DoD. No left wing conspiricy, no pinkeestas...none of that. It was also DoD who released the photographs. You can ask DoD who they received permission from to take the photos and to release them.

[rhet 2]

rhet2,
Your missing the point here...It was the Air Force who took the pictures. The pictures were posted on various web sites within DoD. No left wing conspiricy, no pinkeestas...none of that. It was also DoD who released the photographs. You can ask DoD who they received permission from to take the photos and to release them.

NO, you're missing the point.

THE AIR FORCE HAD PERMISSION FROM THE FAMILIES.

Get the right to photograph a troop coffin -- if you can -- from the Troop or from his family.

Otherwise, keep your nose out of what is THEIR business and none of your own.

ONLY THE TROOP AND HIS FAMILY HAVE THE RIGHT TO GIVE YOU WHAT YOU DEMAND.

[FirmHand135]

NO, you're missing the point.

THE AIR FORCE HAD PERMISSION FROM THE FAMILIES.

Get the right to photograph a troop coffin -- if you can -- from the Troop or from his family.

Otherwise, keep your nose out of what is THEIR business and none of your own.

ONLY THE TROOP AND HIS FAMILY HAVE THE RIGHT TO GIVE YOU WHAT YOU DEMAND.

thats a bold statement to make. I am sure that you have some proof of the statement that the airforce had prior permission from all the families.
Seems a rather odd thing for a branch of the Military to do, call and interrupt a familys grieving to ask for permission to take a picture. But I am sure you have proof of your statement. Would you please share with us. If so, I will happily make a correction.

[rhet 2]

thats a bold statement to make. I am sure that you have some proof of the statement that the airforce had prior permission from all the families.
Seems a rather odd thing for a branch of the Military to do, call and interrupt a familys grieving to ask for permission to take a picture. But I am sure you have proof of your statement. Would you please share with us. If so, I will happily make a correction.

You don't know very much about how officers feel about dead troops and their grieving widows then.

Because NO WAY IN HELL the AF Command would do it without the troop/family consent.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THAT BODY AND HOW IT IS TREATED.

Got it?

GET THE FAMILY'S CONSENT -- on a notarized contract agreeing to the use you want to make of those photos.

How hard is that to do? GET CONSENT FROM THE FAMILY

Except that you don't want to have to ask for permission -- because you know they'd tell you to **** off, because they know their son believed in the cause you seek to trash.

Nobody stopped Sheehan and her Pinko Slime from trashing the memory of her son -- despite his father's objections. Because she had sole custody and the RIGHT TO DECIDE what to do herself.

But, by the Lord Harry, don't you DARE try to usurp MY BOY for your cause. He KNOWS what he's fighting for -- and I love him enough to honor his decision, honor him for fighting for something he truly believes in.

AND YOU WILL NOT TRASH HIS MEMORY BY USING HIS BODY TO TRASH HIS CAUSE.

Got it?

His body, his cause, his honor -- AND I WILL FIGHT YOU TOOTH AND NAIL TO STOP YOU FROM ABUSING ANY OF THOSE THREE.

But it's his body, not mine. IF you can get HIS PERMISSION FIRST, I'll stand back and work damned hard to discourage anyone from watching what you do with it IF YOU HAVE HIS PERMISSION FIRST.

His wife comes next in line for control over his body. She's dedicated to the cause, too. Good luck getting her to agree to such an atrocity.

His mother and dad come third in line for control over his body. She's a bitch and greedy as hell for money and doesn't give a **** one way or the other about the cause, especially since she wanted him to be a lawyer, not a Marine. You might get her to sell you the rights -- IF something happened to his wife, first.

Then you have to face his aunt and his uncles -- and you won't like the lawsuit we'd slam you with if you try it. Because we ARE PROUD of him and SERVE THE CAUSE you despise.

And ONLY then -- if there were not one single solitary blood family on earth -- would the Corps have say one about what happens if the worst comes to worst and he pays the price for his beliefs and his honor code.

So, you'd still have to go through the Corps to get LEGAL RIGHT to use his body for your trashing of his cause.

Anti-war Peaceniks are so far down the chain of custody for his body, no way in hell they'll get this one to fly. And all I need to put Sheehan and her Witches into bankrupt city is a jury to nail them to the wall for abusing his body to trash his cause.

[Adlerian Thinker]

Rhet, he's a ghoulish DU troll.

Nothing you say will convince it, so perhaps you should stop feeding it. :hug:

[FirmHand135]

thinker,
I see your back to trying to cast dispersions once more. You lost the argument as to the legal standing. The only ground you have to stand on is moral. To that end I offered the Dover Test which was coined by the former CJCS, a hardend combat vetern(I believe that also strips you of speaking for all of combat arms as he was very clearly in Combat arms and has an opposing view to yours).
You quetioned my service. That was quelled when I offered to give any all info to an independent party.
You stated I was a retread. You even checked. But as you were doing that I offered to give the forum people any and all needed information.
You have used names and various other disperaging remarks on numerous occassions.
Now your back to the troll method.....ENOUGH
Stick to the argument.
rhet2 responded to an argument I posted and I responded back with a counter argument to her.
If you have an argument on this topic bring it forward for debate, in a respectable manner.
Gets back to the Dover test, the Freedom of Information Act. The 2005 Bush administration reversal on policy.

[j2_krazy]

The pictures are not needed to do that.

People do not support wars because they LIKE war.
The pictures are neede as a reminder for the ultimate sacrafice we have made yes some people do like war.

[ken]

The pictures are neede as a reminder for the ultimate sacrafice we have made yes some people do like war.
I agree!!!!!!! Let people see the coffins!

[Adlerian Thinker]

Let those who want to see coffins go to the funeral home.

Otherwise, get a life.

[the_fog]

I think people need to see the consequences of telling lies to get into Iraq.

[Adlerian Thinker]

I think people need to see the consequences of telling lies to get into Iraq.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=49527881&postcount=244

[FirmHand135]

OR we can exercise our rights and discuss the information in a free and open manner. A much more respectful solution!

[Adlerian Thinker]

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.p...&postcount=244

[rhet 2]

I think people need to see the consequences of telling lies to get into Iraq.

Me, I think people need to see the consequences of lying ego maniacal asses off to get into the White House in order to dodge responsibility for not stopping 9/11.

Especially since the lying Power Pigs R MINE herd were willing to send troops into Kosovo to stop genocidal slaughter that did NOT occur -- and unwilling to send troops to stop genocidal slaughter that DID occur in Iraq.

But then I'm not into the Politics of Deception like the Demo Slimes are.

You WILL NOT use the bodies of men fighting to stop genocide to bash hell out of the war to stop genocide -- not without their pre-signed consent, anyway.

[FirmHand135]

Me, I think people need to see the consequences of lying ego maniacal asses off to get into the White House in order to dodge responsibility for not stopping 9/11.

Especially since the lying Power Pigs R MINE herd were willing to send troops into Kosovo to stop genocidal slaughter that did NOT occur -- and unwilling to send troops to stop genocidal slaughter that DID occur in Iraq.

But then I'm not into the Politics of Deception like the Demo Slimes are.

You WILL NOT use the bodies of men fighting to stop genocide to bash hell out of the war to stop genocide -- not without their pre-signed consent, anyway.

Was completly unaware that you were the one who set teh requirements. Or for that matter, anyone here!
If you don't like the politicol leaders, then vote to change them. I believe that is what America just did, vote to change politicol direction as we were not happy with the course we were on.

[thr3]

Let those who want to see coffins go to the funeral home.

Otherwise, get a life.

Quite

[rhet 2]

Was completly unaware that you were the one who set teh requirements. Or for that matter, anyone here!
If you don't like the politicol leaders, then vote to change them. I believe that is what America just did, vote to change politicol direction as we were not happy with the course we were on.

Try to take control over a troop's body, and we'll see whom juries think should have the right of use.

I'm happy to help fund the lawsuit to put the Users and Abusers into abject poverty for the rest of their ghoulish little lives.

[FirmHand135]

Nobody is taking control over a troops body! Not sure where you deriving that from. We are talking about photographs and and other pictures. Have simply no idea at all where you coming from.

[rhet 2]

Nobody is taking control over a troops body! Not sure where you deriving that from. We are talking about photographs and and other pictures. Have simply no idea at all where you coming from.

You have NO RIGHT to photograph his coffin. Which IS appropriating to yourself the RIGHT to use his body for your purposes -- despite the fact that he would have put his boot up your butt for your anti-war activism.

You want to use his death for your political agenda, go get his permission first.

[FirmHand135]

rhet2,
please be civil. Its a discussion...Not a bar fight. As to the current standards, yes the policy is to allow thos photographs. As I said, if you disagree with that or want your plan implimented, take it to your congressman or senator, vote for change. Submit it to the DoD....lots of things you can do. Open polite discussion will advance your cause further.