Ask A Lutheran

[RayMan]

Who are these Lutherans?

What do they believe?

Do you have to be a Viking to be a Lutheran?

These are questions we need the answers to.

[lucky]

Who are these Lutherans?

What do they believe?

Do you have to be a Viking to be a Lutheran?

These are questions we need the answers to.

Why do you all come from Wisconsin? Where did they get those funny accents? :razz:

[terri910]

This is the only one I think I might have the answer to:
Do you have to be a Viking to be a Lutheran?

Answer: No, but it helps.




How'd I do? :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

This is the only one I think I might have the answer to:
Answer: No, but it helps.



How'd I do? :mrgreen:

Only time (and vir) will tell.

[vir doctus]

Only time (and vir) will tell.

I am a Believer with a Lutheran habit, I'm not sure that is good enough, on this board, to answer for Lutherans.

However, in the interest of discussion, "Lutheran" is not a sufficient designation. There are conservative Lutherans (LCMS, WELS, Brethren...), but the largest group of Lutherans in the USA are liberal ELCA. I have harsh words for many ELCA beliefs and will keep them to myself.

[terri910]

However, in the interest of discussion, "Lutheran" is not a sufficient designation.
Isn't the same true of Baptists? (I seem to remember a number of different "kinds" of Baptist churches, even in my little hometown)

[tsout]

I am a Believer with a Lutheran habit, I'm not sure that is good enough, on this board, to answer for Lutherans.

However, in the interest of discussion, "Lutheran" is not a sufficient designation. There are conservative Lutherans (LCMS, WELS, Brethren...), but the largest group of Lutherans in the USA are liberal ELCA. I have harsh words for many ELCA beliefs and will keep them to myself.

We have almost all the designations within a 5 mile radius of my house. My friend and his parents attend LCMS but I have 2 or 3 ELCA very close to me. I have heard the conversations between he and his parents and been involved in a few of them but still do not fully understand the difference in the governing bodies. Other than one being liberal and one conservative. That's pretty much all I took away from it.

[Lie Sniper]

Do you have to be a Viking to be a Lutheran?

These are questions we need the answers to.

You get a cool helmet with horns when you become a member!:))

Sure don't cha know!

[RayMan]

Isn't the same true of Baptists? (I seem to remember a number of different "kinds" of Baptist churches, even in my little hometown)

Lord love a duck. There's more brands of Baptist than Carter has pills.

[lucky]

Lord love a duck. There's more brands of Baptist than Carter has pills.
lol

[RayMan]

We have almost all the designations within a 5 mile radius of my house. My friend and his parents attend LCMS but I have 2 or 3 ELCA very close to me. I have heard the conversations between he and his parents and been involved in a few of them but still do not fully understand the difference in the governing bodies. Other than one being liberal and one conservative. That's pretty much all I took away from it.

Thanks. I know more than I did before I read your post.


BTW - It's Friday!

Have a great weekend everybody!

[hillplus]

Don't know much about the specific tenants of the Lutheran faith or what makes them unique, but I do know I like them. My son goes to a Lutheran pre-school and you couldn't find nicer people than those who share their love with my little one.

[Lie Sniper]

I am a Believer with a Lutheran habit, I'm not sure that is good enough, on this board, to answer for Lutherans.

However, in the interest of discussion, "Lutheran" is not a sufficient designation. There are conservative Lutherans (LCMS, WELS, Brethren...), but the largest group of Lutherans in the USA are liberal ELCA. I have harsh words for many ELCA beliefs and will keep them to myself.

I'm a Christian and politically conservative, who attends a ELCA Lutheran Church. I'm by no means an authority, but will try(in my simple way) to answer some questions.

Vir, you most likely can trump all knowledge on whats Lutheran. What I can do, is give my understanding regarding the ELCA.
I'm very open to gaining a deeper understanding so Vir, I sincerely hope you participate.

What I do know about my ELCA congregation is that it leans more conservative. Political affiliation has very little weight and the words in the bible are the words in the bible. Words of both Law and of Salvation. If it ever became more of a political agenda, I would be quick to search out a new church. Luckily, my congregation seems to think, for the most part, logically, and the focus is on Christ and our relationship with Him.
Basically, we are all sinners and in need of a savior(Jesus) and judgement is in Gods hands. :angel:

[vir doctus]

I'm a Christian and politically conservative, who attends a ELCA Lutheran Church. I'm by no means an authority, but will try(in my simple way) to answer some questions.

Vir, you most likely can trump all knowledge on whats Lutheran. What I can do, is give my understanding regarding the ELCA.
I'm very open to gaining a deeper understanding so Vir, I sincerely hope you participate.

What I do know about my ELCA congregation is that it leans more conservative. Political affiliation has very little weight and the words in the bible are the words in the bible. Words of both Law and of Salvation. If it ever became more of a political agenda, I would be quick to search out a new church. Luckily, my congregation seems to think, for the most part, logically, and the focus is on Christ and our relationship with Him.
Basically, we are all sinners and in need of a savior(Jesus) and judgement is in Gods hands. :angel:

It is good to have your voice here.

[Lie Sniper]

It is good to have your voice here.

:hug: I hope to learn a few things.

[RayMan]

it is good to have your voice here.

+1

[Lie Sniper]

Don't know much about the specific tenants of the Lutheran faith or what makes them unique, but I do know I like them. My son goes to a Lutheran pre-school and you couldn't find nicer people than those who share their love with my little one.

Lutherans, in my experience, are typically pleasant and reserved.
My church has the rep as, "the nice church", in the area.

The Pastor of my congregation likes to joke that he knows when the congregation likes something because they "smile REALLY loud!":D

[Mikko]

Who are these Lutherans?

What do they believe?

Do you have to be a Viking to be a Lutheran?

These are questions we need the answers to.
Why are they so sure they're right?:)

[RayMan]

Why are they so sure they're right?:)

Martin Luther's motto.


Never give up. Never surrender.

[vir doctus]

Martin Luther's motto.


Never give up. Never surrender.

:naughty:

"Sin boldly!"

Can't go wrong with that.

[Mikko]

Martin Luther's motto.


Never give up. Never surrender.
I think he got that from Winston Churchill.:)

[RayMan]

I think he got that from Winston Churchill.:)

That's probably where the Galaxy Quest writers picked it up also.

[Mikko]

That's probably where the Galaxy Quest writers picked it up also.
More a propo than many would admit.:)

[Lie Sniper]

Why are they so sure they're right?:)

It's not so much that we are sure we're right.

It's more like we're sure you're wrong!;)

[RayMan]

More a propo than many would admit.:)
;)

[Mikko]

It's not so much that we are sure we're right.

It's more like we're sure you're wrong!;)
Well, that changes everything!:)

[Lie Sniper]

Well, that changes everything!:)

Glad I could clear that up for you!:razz:

[RayMan]

I think one of the most positive things about the Lutheran Church is that they never make the 6 O'Clock news. Not out here on the West Coast anyhow.

[Lie Sniper]

I think one of the most positive things about the Lutheran Church is that they never make the 6 O'Clock news. Not out here on the West Coast anyhow.

That's one of the tenants.:D

[vir doctus]

I think one of the most positive things about the Lutheran Church is that they never make the 6 O'Clock news. Not out here on the West Coast anyhow.

BTK killer was talked about because of his church affiliation. Then there was the pastor that killed his wife to run away with the secretary - or something like that... And don't forget that pastor that prayed amongst mixed faiths after 9-11.

[RayMan]

BTK killer was talked about because of his church affiliation. Then there was the pastor that killed his wife to run away with the secretary - or something like that... And don't forget that pastor that prayed amongst mixed faiths after 9-11.

Don't remembering hearing a word of any of that in the news out here. Only the nicest of Lutherans are allowed in California.

They are screened at the border like plants and vegetables. :mrgreen:

The rotten ones are thrown out. I think they go to Michigan.

[Lie Sniper]

Don't remembering hearing a word of any of that in the news out here. Only the nicest of Lutherans are allowed in California.

They are screened at the border like plants and vegetables. :mrgreen:

The rotten ones are thrown out. I think they go to Michigan.

Speaking of Michigan,

I just remembered there are Laestadian and Apostolic Lutherans in Michigan, Minnesota, Arizona and maybe elsewhere.

You heard of them Vir?

[vir doctus]

Speaking of Michigan,

I just remembered there are Laestadian and Apostolic Lutherans in Michigan, Minnesota, Arizona and maybe elsewhere.

You heard of them Vir?

Not by name. I know there are some Lutheran nuns in Arizona - - would like them to take on eldest as a special project....

[Lie Sniper]

Not by name. I know there are some Lutheran nuns in Arizona - - would like them to take on eldest as a special project....

Interesting, I guess I have never really heard of Lutheran nuns, except I may have seen you mention it in the past. Care to go into detail?

Vir, what affiliation of Lutheran do you consider yourself, if I may ask?

[vir doctus]

Interesting, I guess I have never really heard of Lutheran nuns, except I may have seen you mention it in the past. Care to go into detail?

It appears the order in Phoenix has gone interdenom. "Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary". There are Carmelite Lutheran nuns in Germany.

Vir, what affiliation of Lutheran do you consider yourself, if I may ask?

I don't. I walk in the shadow of the Christ. My father is an LCMS minister.

[Lie Sniper]

It appears the order in Phoenix has gone interdenom. "Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary". There are Carmelite Lutheran nuns in Germany.



I don't. I walk in the shadow of the Christ. My father is an LCMS minister.

So are you an opponent of Lutheranism, or of all religion if it seems they attempt to contain, interpret or some how limit God's will and power?

Or are just a rebellious minister's daughter?;)

[terri910]

Don't remembering hearing a word of any of that in the news out here.
Of the three instances vir gave, I'd only heard about the one where the pastor ran off with the secretary. I think there was a made-for-tv movie about it.

Our local Lutheran church closed. Well, I guess that's what you would call it. The building was sold to some other faith, and there is no Lutheran Church in our town any longer. Fortunately for any local Lutherans, there are a few other Lutheran churches in our neighboring town.

[meggers49]

Martin Luther's motto.


Never give up. Never surrender.

was he a shipmate?

[RayMan]

was he a shipmate?

Yes. The guy with the forehead bumps and the British accent.

[meggers49]

i'd be happy to ask a serious question about the Lutheran faith.
well, two.

do you have communion at every service and when your minister consecrates the 'host' for want of a better word, what are the words of consecration?

and do you use unleavened bread or just bread?

[vir doctus]

i'd be happy to ask a serious question about the Lutheran faith.
well, two.

do you have communion at every service and when your minister consecrates the 'host' for want of a better word, what are the words of consecration?

Depends on the church. It should be every Sunday but many Lutherans rebel if the service goes past sixty minutes and zero seconds. The words of institution are:

"Our LORD Jesus Christ, on the night in which he was betrayed, took the bread, gave thanks, and broke it and gave it to his disciples and said, 'Take; eat; this is my † body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way he also took the cup after the supper, gave thanks, and gave it to them and said, 'Take, and drink of it, all of you. This cup is the New Testament in my † blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'"


and do you use unleavened bread or just bread?

Unleavened.

[vir doctus]

So are you an opponent of Lutheranism, or of all religion if it seems they attempt to contain, interpret or some how limit God's will and power?

Or are just a rebellious minister's daughter?;)

I am a Believer, I follow Christ. The Lord has used a wide variety of denominated people to improve my walk with Him, thus I prefer to not box people in by man made organizations and rejoice wherever I find a Brother or Sister in Christ. I just happen to be better versed in Luther than most pastors and get involved in Lutheran/Catholic discussions for the sake of historical accuracy.

[vir doctus]

Of the three instances vir gave, I'd only heard about the one where the pastor ran off with the secretary. I think there was a made-for-tv movie about it.

Our local Lutheran church closed. Well, I guess that's what you would call it. The building was sold to some other faith, and there is no Lutheran Church in our town any longer. Fortunately for any local Lutherans, there are a few other Lutheran churches in our neighboring town.

I am surprised Left Coasters are unaware of the serial killer.

[terri910]

I am surprised Left Coasters are unaware of the serial killer.
Too many serial killers to keep up with, I suppose. :cry:

[meggers49]

Too many serial killers to keep up with, I suppose. :cry:

and amazingly, most of them with ties to Rochester. I blame the obelisk. I will explain another day.

[RayMan]

I am surprised Left Coasters are unaware of the serial killer.

I had read of the Bind, Torture, and Kill murderer but the reports I had read didn't mention a Lutheran connection.

Used buf's preferred source, Wiki, just now and they brought it out.





Wikipedia, don't leave home without it. :whistle:

[RayMan]

and amazingly, most of them with ties to Rochester. I blame the obelisk. I will explain another day.

And they tend to have Wayne as a middle name. What's up with that?


Duke envy?

[vir doctus]

I had read of the Bind, Torture, and Kill murderer but the reports I had read didn't mention a Lutheran connection.

Used buf's preferred source, Wiki, just now and they brought it out.


Wikipedia, don't leave home without it. :whistle:

Did Wiki mention his church affiliation and the media hubbub about if he should be excommunicated (because the church doesn't need any sinners, you know)?

[gpd®]

Don't remembering hearing a word of any of that in the news out here. Only the nicest of Lutherans are allowed in California.

They are screened at the border like plants and vegetables. :mrgreen:

The rotten ones are thrown out. I think they go to Michigan.

Don't catch too much Nancy Grace, or Greta or Geraldo huh?

[RayMan]

Did Wiki mention his church affiliation and the media hubbub about if he should be excommunicated (because the church doesn't need any sinners, you know)?

Nope. Just a blurb.

He was also a member of Christ Lutheran Church, a Lutheran congregation of about 200 people, near his former high school. He had been a member for about 30 years and had been elected president[5] of the Congregation Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader

[vir doctus]

Seems the infamous George Tiller is an upstanding member of the ELCA. :cry:

[vir doctus]

and amazingly, most of them with ties to Rochester. I blame the obelisk. I will explain another day.

The three killers mentioned in this thread are from Kansas, two from Wichita and one from Emporia.

[vir doctus]

Nope. Just a blurb.

He was also a member of Christ Lutheran Church, a Lutheran congregation of about 200 people, near his former high school. He had been a member for about 30 years and had been elected president[5] of the Congregation Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader

The wiki article on excommunication mentions it. Wiki drops the ball on cross-referencing.

[RayMan]

The wiki article on excommunication mentions it. Wiki drops the ball on cross-referencing.

Ah. Didn't see that one.

[LeroyBrown]

Isn't the same true of Baptists? (I seem to remember a number of different "kinds" of Baptist churches, even in my little hometown)

Yes. The Great Schism in Baptist history occured when it was debated what was the greatest of all dishes in the sacrement of pot luck. There are as many Baptist Churches as there are casseroles.

I've still yet to figure how so many can be the "First" Bapstist church. Alas that knowlege has been lost to history.

[Lie Sniper]

:)I am a Believer, I follow Christ. The Lord has used a wide variety of denominated people to improve my walk with Him, thus I prefer to not box people in by man made organizations and rejoice wherever I find a Brother or Sister in Christ.

This is what I was wondering in my last post.
I really like this explanation and aspire to see myself in this light.


I just happen to be better versed in Luther than most pastors and get involved in Lutheran/Catholic discussions for the sake of historical accuracy.

Are you just a neutral, knowledgeable observer? What I mean is, Do you agree with Luther?

Also, lets hear your objections with the ELCA. Don't worry I'm not joined at the hip with the ELCA, I won't fly off the handle.

Teach me something.;):)

[vir doctus]

Do you agree with Luther?

On some things he was a gifted scholar. Remember, he was a student of God's Word and of the past, his ideas were not original.


Also, lets hear your objections with the ELCA. Don't worry I'm not joined at the hip with the ELCA, I won't fly off the handle.


I will mention my disagreements on one condition - you don't expect me to validate my assertions.

[hben]

Lord love a duck. There's more brands of Baptist than Carter has pills.

I am sorry to say that most Baptists now days have been crossed with all sorts of other breeds. It is hard to find a registered pure bred Baptist anymore. :redface: :cool:

[RayMan]

I am sorry to say that most Baptists now days have been crossed with all sorts of other breeds. It is hard to find a registered pure bred Baptist anymore. :redface: :cool:

You callin' them mutts? ;)

[hben]

You callin' them mutts? ;)

Many are of the "Heinz 57" variety. :cool:

[meggers49]

The three killers mentioned in this thread are from Kansas, two from Wichita and one from Emporia.

Bianchi ....i think he was the Hillside strangler and his uncle were from rochester, Arthur Shawcross was in Rochester for his murders, Jack the ripper lived here, there are a couple more, but I can't remember them right now.

As I said, I blame the obelisk. We have this obelisk downtown that is dedicated to The Fox Sisters ...they were mediums and spiritualists and I swear it's like what do they call it in Ghostbusters? Spook Central? bringing all the evil spirits here. I think we should have it exorcised.

[RayMan]

The table rapping Fox sisters. Haven't heard about them in years.

[Dancer]

I was raised baptized Missouri Synod, but confirmed ELCA. I could probably answer a few questions. I converted to Old Catholic when we got back from Germany about 5 1/2 years ago.

As an ELCA Lutheran, I used the green "Lutheran Book of Worship". I had a male married pastor in all three churches that I regularly attended; however, female pastors are allowed. No discussion of homosexuality occurred at anytime I was growing up in the church.

Once a year we would say the Athanasian Creed, most Sundays we said the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed. Communion was a very holy experience for me, I was raised believing that I was in the presence of the Lord when I consumed communion and I did it as commanded by Christ. I remember being slapped by my mom at the communion rail while waiting to receive communion because I started talking (not showing respect) and afterward, she informed me that I would not be allowed to receive if I clearly did not understand the meaning. A long talk occurred after that and I never again thought to chit chat at the communion rail.

3 covenants (baptism, communion, marriage).

Personal relationship with Christ. Infant baptism, confirmation as a teen. No altar calls, mass general confession at the beginning of services. Liturgical service (much like RC services from the standpoint of the typical congregant). I remember a lot of verse memorization in confirmation classes, some discussion of other faiths (some accurate, but not all). Confirmation gives you voting privileges in the church since you are officially an 'adult' in the church. Confirmation usually occurred in 8th or 9th grade, but my mom wasn't confirmed until she was an adult. I know ELCA and TEC have an agreement now pretty much saying that one agrees with the other (Ecumenical commonality). It is one of the reasons we left the church. While I hold no negative feelings for the church I was raised in, I also don't believe the current ELCA is the same one I was raised with.

I am not sure what else to tell you.

[terri910]

I just wanted to make note that as I was reading the RF thread titles just now, there was "What will you do forever" and then, as if an answer to that, was "Ask a Lutheran".....

:mrgreen:

[melinda]

I am a Believer, I follow Christ. The Lord has used a wide variety of denominated people to improve my walk with Him, thus I prefer to not box people in by man made organizations and rejoice wherever I find a Brother or Sister in Christ. I just happen to be better versed in Luther than most pastors and get involved in Lutheran/Catholic discussions for the sake of historical accuracy.

beautiful post, vir ...

If you don't mind my asking, which Seminary did your father attend?
my family is full of LCMS pastors; that's my reason for asking.

[melinda]

I just wanted to make note that as I was reading the RF thread titles just now, there was "What will you do forever" and then, as if an answer to that, was "Ask a Lutheran".....

:mrgreen:

cute .... :))

[melinda]

Who are these Lutherans?
Why do you ask? :shifty:


What do they believe?
they believe in darker beers and eschew all Lite beers


Do you have to be a Viking to be a Lutheran?
you can also be German


These are questions we need the answers to.
you're welcome.

[vir doctus]

beautiful post, vir ...

If you don't mind my asking, which Seminary did your father attend?
my family is full of LCMS pastors; that's my reason for asking.

St. Louis.

[melinda]

St. Louis.

ah, I do wonder if he knows any of my family ...
most older Pastors that I run across know at least one member of my family if not more.

My dad was raised in Concordia, MO. He, as well as all of his siblings, attended St. Paul's Lutheran School there. Matter of fact, that school is the reason my grandmother moved to Concordia after her husband died. I never went there, but many, many of my cousins went and now many of my cousins' children are attending.

[Lie Sniper]

I will mention my disagreements on one condition - you don't expect me to validate my assertions.

Vir, I don't quite know what to do with this statement.

Do you mean you will mention your disagreements, but do not wish to discuss them?
Do you mean you will mention them, but don't have time to back them up?
Do you mean that you have disagreements but can't back them up?

Please explain in greater detail what you meant.

[vir doctus]

Vir, I don't quite know what to do with this statement.

Do you mean you will mention your disagreements, but do not wish to discuss them?
Do you mean you will mention them, but don't have time to back them up?
Do you mean that you have disagreements but can't back them up?

Please explain in greater detail what you meant.

Last time I mentioned my disagreements the person discussing the issue would not believe what I said, I documented everything for that person but I am not sure why the burden was on me; a person should be interested in their place of worship enough to do the research. Nothing personal.

I am always happy to discuss.

[Lie Sniper]

As an ELCA Lutheran, I used the green "Lutheran Book of Worship". I had a male married pastor in all three churches that I regularly attended; however, female pastors are allowed. No discussion of homosexuality occurred at anytime I was growing up in the church.


Same in my church. The ELCA recently released a statement on sexuality. I would say it is slightly ambiguous, as it takes about forty pages to say that homosexuality is wrong. This is just one of the issues that have been on the table. I would say that the ELCA is definitely in transition.

I will paraphrase my understanding.
Basically it says we live in a fallen world. Homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin, in the eyes of God. Just like any other sinner, we are to welcome homosexuals in to the church. The area that is disturbing to some and is currently debated and may be redefined in the future, has to do with homosexual clergy. The statement states the practicing homosexual clergy are not permitted. The ELCA does allow celibate homosexual clergy.

What does this mean? I've had it explained to me in this way. Homosexuality is wrong because it is found in scripture to be condemned and nowhere is it found to be supported. Along with homosexuality there are many other specific sins that are also condemned. So we hate the sin and love the sinner. When it comes to clergy actively engaging in homosexual activity, it would be actively disobeying God and celebrating sin. But if homosexual clergy remain celibate, they would be actively honoring and obeying God and thus rejecting sin.


3 covenants (baptism, communion, marriage).

Two sacraments baptism and communion.

I know ELCA and TEC have an agreement now pretty much saying that one agrees with the other (Ecumenical commonality). It is one of the reasons we left the church. While I hold no negative feelings for the church I was raised in, I also don't believe the current ELCA is the same one I was raised with.

Can you go into greater detail about this?
My understanding of TEC is Teens Encounter Christ.

[Lie Sniper]

Last time I mentioned my disagreements the person discussing the issue would not believe what I said, I documented everything for that person but I am not sure why the burden was on me; a person should be interested in their place of worship enough to do the research. Nothing personal.

I am always happy to discuss.

Well then fire away!;)
If you document it, I will read it.

Like I said before, I'm here to learn and grow my faith. If I'm misunderstanding or unaware of something, I want to correct it. :)

[vir doctus]

Well then fire away!;)
If you document it, I will read it.

Like I said before, I'm here to learn and grow my faith. If I'm misunderstanding or unaware of something, I want to correct it. :)

- Ordained females

- Unwillingness to speak out against abortion and changing health insurance for ELCA church workers to receive paid for abortions

- Promotion/acceptance of active homosexuals in the ministry

[Lie Sniper]

- Ordained females

- Unwillingness to speak out against abortion and changing health insurance for ELCA church workers to receive paid for abortions

- Promotion/acceptance of active homosexuals in the ministry

OK, yes I've heard all of these before.
I personally have had little experience with female clergy.
cbut and I once had a long debate about female clergy. I would say, and I think he would agree, that we reached a stalemate. We can come back to this later. I was able to find a lot of scripture to support it.

I'll find the abortion document later and post it. We can then discuss it. While I agree that it is not as strong a stance as I would like, it does, I believe state that it is wrong.

I agree the ELCA has been ambiguous in there stance with both abortion and homosexuality. They have created long documents to state that both are wrong. Interestingly, my congregation has had no debate on either. Our understanding is that it's in the bible as wrong. I also understand the ELCA as a whole, leans liberal politically, so I do believe there is an infiltration of worldly ideas, and a movement of universalism, as well as something I consider "its not my fault gospel". So far the ELCA has come out on the side of scripture. I believe this infiltration has caused the governing body to bend toward more politically correct terminology. I would say they are under attack by the loud liberal movement, and if anything need prayer to hold strong and fight the good fight.

I will check into ELCA members having "paid for" abortions, but I must say, considering the insurance is for clergy, I highly doubt they are "receiving" abortions. Could it be that the ELCA's insurance plan is like any other medical plan? Could it be that while this plan may include coverage of the procedure, nobody actually went out looking for a medical plan that would include abortions?

Come on Vir, do you think Clergy would get an abortion?:rolleyes:

[vir doctus]

I will check into ELCA members having "paid for" abortions, but I must say, considering the insurance is for clergy, I highly doubt they are "receiving" abortions. Could it be that the ELCA's insurance plan is like any other medical plan? Could it be that while this plan may include coverage of the procedure, nobody actually went out looking for a medical plan that would include abortions?

Come on Vir, do you think Clergy would get an abortion?:rolleyes:


The plan, of course, covers the families of all the church workers it covers - many of whom are girls/women.

True story - husband and wife team of ELCA preachers were happy with all the ELCA espoused until about five years ago when the ELCA actively pursued this enhanced insurance. The husband fought every way he knew how but when his fight failed he ended his pastorship, joined an LCMS church and eventually completed the qualifications to become an LCMS pastor. His wife stayed on as an ELCA pastor.

[Lie Sniper]

The plan, of course, covers the families of all the church workers it covers - many of whom are girls/women.

True story - husband and wife team of ELCA preachers were happy with all the ELCA espoused until about five years ago when the ELCA actively pursued this enhanced insurance. The husband fought every way he knew how but when his fight failed he ended his pastorship, joined an LCMS church and eventually completed the qualifications to become an LCMS pastor. His wife stayed on as an ELCA pastor.

As I said, I will investigate this insurance plan. I will speak to my current Pastor, who is a strong conservative.
For now, I have a true story.
I've known six Pastors in my life, and several female church workers. As far as I know, none of them have had nor endorsed the having of abortions. The Pastors have all been openly pro life.

I respect the Pastor you know, that thought it important to stand up for his beliefs. I wonder though, did he make his voice heard, before making the switch? (Edit to say I apologize, upon rereading your post, I see that you did state he fought to change it)

I'm not denying the ELCA has its liberal side, and maybe my experience is unique, I guess my point would be to warn against painting the entire ELCA with the same brush. I've heard statistically the ELCA is about 60% liberal and 40% conservitive. I would like to ask for your prayers for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and also ask that you not condemn the entire ELCA.

[vir doctus]

I would like to ask for your prayers for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and also ask that you not condemn the entire ELCA.

Just the policies of the organization.

If George Tiller attended your church, what would you do?

[Lie Sniper]

The plan, of course, covers the families of all the church workers it covers - many of whom are girls/women.

Which again, I doubt this part of the medical plan is being utilized by ELCA workers daughters and wives. I also wonder how many people read through the entire plan.


His wife stayed on as an ELCA pastor.

Does this mean his wife endorses abortion?

[vir doctus]

Does this mean his wife endorses abortion?

I never met her.

[Lie Sniper]

Just the policies of the organization.

This is fair. I have stated previously, that I wish the ELCAs statements were more direct and clear. I feel they have chosen way to many words to state something is wrong. It is still stated as wrong. Again, I suspect this is because of the infiltration of a loud liberal movement. The ELCA and its members are under attack.


If George Tiller attended your church, what would you do?

:think:This is an interesting question.
What power does one sinner have over another?
What do I do when I look at a woman with more than just admiring her beauty, even if its only for a second?
What do I do If I wish I had a bigger house like my friend Joe, even if its for a second?
What do we do with a married couple that has had infidelity in there marriage?
What do we do with a teenage girl who made a foolish mistake and is now pregnant?
What do we do with a homosexual in our congregation?

Jesus did not come for the righteous, he came for the sinners.
So I guess George needs to hear some Law and Gospel. He needs to hear about repentance and Grace. Just like the rest of us.

Do you believe all sins are equal in the eyes of God and that all have fallen short?

[vir doctus]

:think:This is an interesting question.
What power does one sinner have over another?
What do I do when I look at a woman with more than just admiring her beauty, even if its only for a second?
What do I do If I wish I had a bigger house like my friend Joe, even if its for a second?
What do we do with a married couple that has had infidelity in there marriage?
What do we do with a teenage girl who made a foolish mistake and is now pregnant?
What do we do with a homosexual in our congregation?

Jesus did not come for the righteous, he came for the sinners.
So I guess George needs to hear some Law and Gospel. He needs to hear about repentance and Grace. Just like the rest of us.

Do you believe all sins are equal in the eyes of God and that all have fallen short?

The Bible sets forth in Mt. 18 what to do when a "member" of the Body of Christ is recalcitrant in their sin. This is further supported in 2 Thess. 3.

[Lie Sniper]

The Bible sets forth in Mt. 18 what to do when a "member" of the Body of Christ is recalcitrant in their sin. This is further supported in 2 Thess. 3.

Vir, you lost me.
In this hypothetical question, is Tiller a "member" of My church? Or has he just started attending services?

Matt 18:1-5 Speaks of humbling yourself and becoming like little children. Also a warning that we must do this or will not see the kingdom.
6-10 explains that we better remove our sin. (Jesus also says on the sermon on the mount that sin comes from our heart.)
11 says Jesus has come for the sinners which would include Tiller.
12-15 Speaks of Jesus coming for everyone.
16-18 speaks of a member sinning AGAINST YOU. Is this what you are referring too?
Moving to 21-22 When Peter asks how often shall I forgive, What does Jesus say?

OK, I see what you are saying in 2 Thessalonians.
Help me understand, how do we balance that with the Greatest Commandment that Jesus gave which is to Love they neighbor.

Are we loving our neighbor by shunning them? Do we shun the adulterer, the pregnant girl, and the homosexual?
Or do we invite them in to learn and hear the Law and gospel? Do we invite them in and pray for them? Do we invite them in to hear the words of the Gospel and allow the Holy Spirit to work on their heart?

[vir doctus]

Are we loving our neighbor by shunning them? Do we shun the adulterer, the pregnant girl, and the homosexual?
Or do we invite them in to learn and hear the Law and gospel? Do we invite them in and pray for them? Do we invite them in to hear the words of the Gospel and allow the Holy Spirit to work on their heart?

There is a distinction between those who are not in Christ and those who claim to be in Christ and are leaders in their congregation. See the consequences of leading people away from God.

[Lie Sniper]

Seems the infamous George Tiller is an upstanding member of the ELCA. :cry:

I did not see this the first time. :doh:

Can you point me toward some documentation that proves this?
Also can you point me toward some documentation that shows he is an active member?

Nancy Pelosi is a Catholic, but I wouldn't consider her a practicing Catholic, nor would I put all Catholics in the same universe with Nancy Pelosi's ideas.
Would it be fair to assume Nancy Pelosi is a good representative of Catholicism?

[Lie Sniper]

There is a distinction between those who are not in Christ and those who claim to be in Christ and are leaders in their congregation. See the consequences of leading people away from God.

What do you propose those who are truly in Christ should do?

A) Run. Abandon those members to continue to be lead away from Christ.

B) Stay and fight. Fight the good fight, remain diligent and work with Christ to rescue those members and mislead souls. Focus on the Gospel and truth found in scripture.

I actually see the ELCA as a Microscopic view of the World. The ELCA is open for all who hear the call. With this openness, comes misleading ideas and infiltration of the wrong Gospel. ELCA is one of the Spiritual battle grounds in this would. With in it , truth can be found. Until I see that all hope is lost, I will stay and fight. God is present. What the ELCA needs is Prayer and support from our fellow warriors in Christ.

[vir doctus]

What do you propose those who are truly in Christ should do?



Do what He told us to do.

[vir doctus]

I did not see this the first time. :doh:

Can you point me toward some documentation that proves this?
Also can you point me toward some documentation that shows he is an active member?


:naughty:

[Lie Sniper]

Do what He told us to do.

Which was what exactly.

Love thy neighbor.
Help the poor.
Spread the Gospel.
Feed the hungry
Judge not.
Do on to others.

Or one of the many other messages.
Which one are you referring too?

[Lie Sniper]

:naughty:

:redface:;)

[vir doctus]

Which was what exactly.

Love thy neighbor.
Help the poor.
Spread the Gospel.
Feed the hungry
Judge not.
Do on to others.

Or one of the many other messages.
Which one are you referring too?

I don't like merry-go-rounds, but thanks for asking.

[Lie Sniper]

I don't like merry-go-rounds, but thanks for asking.

??Vir, what do you mean?
I get the feeling that you are not open to discussion.

I'm sensing some hostility, some stubbornness, and a hint of condescension. Is this what you wish for me to take away from this conversation?

You haven't responded to much of what I've said or asked.

Is this discussion (If we want to call it that) over?:eh:

[vir doctus]

I'm sensing some hostility, some stubbornness, and a hint of condescension. Is this what you wish for me to take away from this conversation?


Zero hostility. Stubbornness about what? I can be very condescending, I'm not there yet. It matters nought to me what you take from this conversation, I'm not a fan of repeating myself or beating dead horses (or even cats).

[Koushi Shinigami]

??Vir, what do you mean?
I get the feeling that you are not open to discussion.

I'm sensing some hostility, some stubbornness, and a hint of condescension. Is this what you wish for me to take away from this conversation?

You haven't responded to much of what I've said or asked.

Is this discussion (If we want to call it that) over?:eh:



Nah. That's just Vir.

[vir doctus]

Nah. That's just Vir.


:redface: You are sweet. http://www.zeldaforums.net/forum/images/smilies2/viking.gif

[Lie Sniper]

Zero hostility. Stubbornness about what? I can be very condescending, I'm not there yet. It matters nought to me what you take from this conversation, I'm not a fan of repeating myself or beating dead horses (or even cats).

Excuse me for misinterpreting your blunt responses and lack of detail.
Some of your responses are open ended comments that I've asked for further clarification. I apologize if I need clarification so that I can understand.

You said in the beginning of this thread, you post for historical accuracy. You also said that you have problems with the ELCA. I asked if would want to discuss them. You also did warn that you would be unwilling to validate your claims. I guess now I know exactly what you meant by that statement.
I've said that I'm open to greater understanding, so is your lack of response to what I've said supposed to mean that, you don't want to discuss, don't care or don't agree.

You are mysterious, Vir.

I'm not getting the level of communication that to me, would constitute a two way discussion. So I will take leave of this "discussion" in pursuit of more meaningful conversation.

Thanks for your time.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Excuse me for misinterpreting your blunt responses and lack of detail.
Some of your responses are open ended comments that I've asked for further clarification. I apologize if I need clarification so that I can understand.


Other's understanding is not high on Vir's list of priorities. A maddeningly endearing quality of hers.



I'm not getting the level of communication that to me, would constitute a two way discussion. So I will take leave of this "discussion" in pursuit of more meaningful conversation.

Thanks for your time.

You've probably chosen the best course of action.

[Lie Sniper]

Other's understanding is not high on Vir's list of priorities. A maddeningly endearing quality of hers.

This is unfortunate. I sense she could add great value to the discussion and understanding on this forum.


You've probably chosen the best course of action.

I agree. ;)

[vir doctus]

I've said that I'm open to greater understanding, so is your lack of response to what I've said supposed to mean that, you don't want to discuss, don't care or don't agree.


God's Word is what it is, can't add to it without disgracing it, can't strip it to make it clearer.

[vir doctus]

I sense she could add great value to the discussion and understanding on this forum.


:rolleyes:

[Koushi Shinigami]

God's Word is what it is, can't add to it without disgracing it, can't strip it to make it clearer.

The current count of Christian denominations would not support that statement.

[Koushi Shinigami]

:redface: You are sweet. http://www.zeldaforums.net/forum/images/smilies2/viking.gif

Not really.

[vir doctus]

Not really.

Just undermining your reputation. ;)

[Koushi Shinigami]

:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))


Keep this up and I'll have something that I'll end up having to live up to. :eek:

[RayMan]

:redface: You are sweet. http://www.zeldaforums.net/forum/images/smilies2/viking.gif

Feeling feverish? Lie down for awhile with a cold damp washcloth on your forehead.

[Lie Sniper]

:rolleyes:

I see your :rolleyes: and raise you :rolleyes:

:razz:

[vir doctus]

I see your :rolleyes: and raise you :rolleyes:

:razz:

It was that or hurl.

[Lie Sniper]

It was that or hurl.

:))
I 'll try to work on my meanness. :mrgreen:

[Ron Jon]

BTK killer was talked about because of his church affiliation. Then there was the pastor that killed his wife to run away with the secretary - or something like that... And don't forget that pastor that prayed amongst mixed faiths after 9-11.Is this what you meant Vir? (about spouting a theology but not living it)?

[Ron Jon]

"Sin boldly!"

Can't go wrong with that.At first I thought you were saying this was part of their theology! "Sin Boldly!" :))

[vir doctus]

At first I thought you were saying this was part of their theology! "Sin Boldly!" :))

It is from Luther (though this translation differs slightly):

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

[Ron Jon]

It is from Luther (though this translation differs slightly):

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txtSo, wouldn't this apply to the so-called "BTK killer"?

[vir doctus]

So, wouldn't this apply to the so-called "BTK killer"?

I don't understand your question.

[Ron Jon]

I don't understand your question.No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. So, from your own quote, it would seem that the BTK killer was living his theology (or at least his twisted understanding of Luther's theology).

[vir doctus]

So, from your own quote, it would seem that the BTK killer was living his theology (or at least his twisted understanding of Luther's theology).

Did you have a question? If you are enjoying the conversation you are having with yourself I'd be happy to give you two some privacy.

[Ron Jon]

I don't understand your question.In the thread I started "The Church That Jesus Built" you said the following::think: I can see how the reverse is true - person has a theology they spout but they don't actually live it... :think:I asked what you meant by this and you said to take a look at this thread. I then made a remark about how "I thought you were saying this was part of their theology! "Sin Boldly!" and you decided to quote "Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt)" to which I asked if you thought Luther's quote could be applied to the BTK killer in the context of "living his theology" and not just "spouting" it.

Now, do you understand the question?

Or, is it possible when you said "person has a theology they spout but they don't actually live it" that you weren't referring to the BTK killer?

[vir doctus]

In the thread I started "The Church That Jesus Built" you said the following:I asked what you meant my this and you said to take a look at this thread. I then made a remark about how "I thought you were saying this was part of their theology! "Sin Boldly!" and you decided to quote "Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt)" to which I asked if you thought Luther's quote could be applied to the BTK killer in the context of "living his theology" and not just "spouting" it.

Now, do you understand the question?

Or, is it possible when you said "person has a theology they spout but they don't actually live it" that you weren't referring to the BTK killer?

I was referring to a lot of people. Is it a new concept to you that people say they believe one thing but do something different? :confused:

[Ron Jon]

I was referring to a lot of people. Is it a new concept to you that people say they believe one thing but do something different? :confused:No, unfortunately some people do not always live their theology to the fullest.

[vir doctus]

Perhaps my own guilty conscious for not living my theology to the fullest.

Well that was obvious. Glad you figured it out. :angel:

[Lie Sniper]

Well that was obvious. Glad you figured it out. :angel:

Well, I still haven't figured out what you meant.

I know this.

I'm a sinner, I'm saved by grace.
I will be spending the rest of my life getting use to my salvation, and believing this is true, with many missteps along the way.

[vir doctus]

Well, I still haven't figured out what you meant.

I know this.

I'm a sinner, I'm saved by grace.
I will be spending the rest of my life getting use to my salvation, and believing this is true, with many missteps along the way.

What I meant by what?

[buflineks]

So, wouldn't this apply to the so-called "BTK killer"?

Just a little thing here. Not trying to be criticle.

Dennis Rader(sp?) was called "BTK" because when he was at the height of his killing spree, he wrote letters to the TV Stations and addressed himself as that ( BTK stands for Bind, Torture, Kill).

And he wasn't a "so called" killer. He confessed to all of it. And his confession was valid. He related things about the crimes that only the killer and the police could know. In addition, there were his "trophey's" and his DNA.

Yes, he was a member of a Lutheran Congregation. I don't think that he was "confessing" Lutheranism as much as he was using it as a shield to disquise his own evil persona.

but that's just MHO.

[Lie Sniper]

What I meant by what?

People spouting a theology that they don't believe, and then referring to the Lutheran thread with a big :)).

I've already told you I'm learning and open to greater understanding. So if I post a :question: and you respond by saying" Dude, follow the bouncing ball, its obvious", that's not really helpful. It's just a condescending comment to entertain the masses and dangle your supposed superior knowledge in front of those who wish to learn.
While I agree its not your responsibility to educate everyone on this forum, you could at least show some respect and compassion for those who wish to educate themselves and gain a deeper understanding about this thing we call faith in God. Maybe save your sarcastic comments for those on this forum who present themselves as someone who thinks they know everything already and take shots at their inaccuracies, while lovingly supporting us learners. :rolleyes:

I don't know if you were referring to Me, Lutherans, killers, or whatever. Instead of vague comments, try clear explanations of where someone is wrong, and we can do the research.

If you truly don't care if someone understands what you are saying, why post at all?


Alright, lets hear your witty comeback. :)

[vir doctus]

Just a little thing here. Not trying to be criticle.

Dennis Rader(sp?) was called "BTK" because when he was at the height of his killing spree, he wrote letters to the TV Stations and addressed himself as that ( BTK stands for Bind, Torture, Kill).

And he wasn't a "so called" killer. He confessed to all of it. And his confession was valid. He related things about the crimes that only the killer and the police could know. In addition, there were his "trophey's" and his DNA.

Yes, he was a member of a Lutheran Congregation. I don't think that he was "confessing" Lutheranism as much as he was using it as a shield to disquise his own evil persona.

but that's just MHO.

One of the members of our congregation was his victim. My dad was one of the first on the scene and spent years helping the husband prove his innocence. The depth of evil veiled under Christianity is truly disturbing.

[vir doctus]

People spouting a theology that they don't believe, and then referring to the Lutheran thread with a big :)).

I've already told you I'm learning and open to greater understanding. So if I post a :question: and you respond by saying" Dude, follow the bouncing ball, its obvious", that's not really helpful. It's just a condescending comment to entertain the masses and dangle your supposed superior knowledge in front of those who wish to learn.
While I agree its not your responsibility to educate everyone on this forum, you could at least show some respect and compassion for those who wish to educate themselves and gain a deeper understanding about this thing we call faith in God. Maybe save your sarcastic comments for those on this forum who present themselves as someone who thinks they know everything already and take shots at their inaccuracies, while lovingly supporting us learners. :rolleyes:

I don't know if you were referring to Me, Lutherans, killers, or whatever. Instead of vague comments, try clear explanations of where someone is wrong, and we can do the research.

If you truly don't care if someone understands what you are saying, why post at all?


Alright, lets hear your witty comeback. :)

:boohoo: The laugh was because I already knew what the Honourable Ron Jon eventually discovered, he felt guilty and thought I was pointing a finger at him.

The comment wasn't vague and can stand on its own. [shrug]

[Lie Sniper]

:boohoo: The laugh was because I already knew what the Honourable Ron Jon eventually discovered, he felt guilty and thought I was pointing a finger at him.

The comment wasn't vague and can stand on its own. [shrug]

:neutral:

[melinda]

One of the members of our congregation was his victim. My dad was one of the first on the scene and spent years helping the husband prove his innocence. The depth of evil veiled under Christianity is truly disturbing.

The depth of evil is truly disturbing no matter what it is veiled under....

[5thIDSoldier]

Yes. The Great Schism in Baptist history occured when it was debated what was the greatest of all dishes in the sacrement of pot luck. There are as many Baptist Churches as there are casseroles.

I've still yet to figure how so many can be the "First" Bapstist church. Alas that knowlege has been lost to history.

:))

Gotta love that one.

[5thIDSoldier]

One of the members of our congregation was his victim. My dad was one of the first on the scene and spent years helping the husband prove his innocence. The depth of evil veiled under Christianity is truly disturbing.

My grandfather was a Lutheran minister in Germany during Hitler's rise to power. He and many others were killed by the Gestapo when they took the church underground.

[vir doctus]

My grandfather was a Lutheran minister in Germany during Hitler's rise to power. He and many others were killed by the Gestapo when they took the church underground.

Bonhoeffer is one of my heroes. Too few did the right thing.

[kasotamatt]

I'm a Lutheran, a Swede, a Twins fan and a self-ascribed Patriot.

My beliefs are my beliefs and I try not to make them anybody else's business.




I also really enjoy the coffee after the service.

[buflineks]

The best "Pancake Feed" in town to help raise money for the "needy" is put on by the Lutherans. Then Mennonites come in second.

[Ron Jon]

My beliefs are my beliefs and I try not to make them anybody else's business.Why? What's your opinion of Matthew 28:19-20

I also really enjoy the coffee after the service.I guess some things are easier to share than others.

[Ron Jon]

Just a little thing here. Not trying to be criticle.

Dennis Rader(sp?) was called "BTK" because when he was at the height of his killing spree, he wrote letters to the TV Stations and addressed himself as that ( BTK stands for Bind, Torture, Kill).

And he wasn't a "so called" killer. He confessed to all of it. And his confession was valid. He related things about the crimes that only the killer and the police could know. In addition, there were his "trophey's" and his DNA.

Yes, he was a member of a Lutheran Congregation. I don't think that he was "confessing" Lutheranism as much as he was using it as a shield to disquise his own evil persona.

but that's just MHO.I don't know anything about this "BTK" person. I referred to him as the "so-called BTK Killer" because that's what he was called, not because I didn't believe he was a killer. I simply lacked the necessary information to form an opinion. But I thank you for filling in the blanks for me.

[buflineks]

I don't know anything about this "BTK" person. I referred to him as the "so-called BTK Killer" because that's what he was called, not because I didn't believe he was a killer. I simply lacked the necessary information to form an opinion. But I thank you for filling in the blanks for me.

I wasn't trying to be critical Ron,honestly.

BTK hits real close to home (about 18 mi's to be exact).

I watched his confession. If ever there was "evil" embodied, he is it. His confession was the most ice cold dispassionate thing I have ever seen, and I've spent time in combat.

When I worked for a sprinkler system installation company back in the late 80's, early 90's, I had occasion to run into him (he was the "enforcement officer" for Park City). You never would have suspected him to be BTK.

[kasotamatt]

Why? What's your opinion of Matthew 28:19-20
I guess some things are easier to share than others.

I prefer Hosea 9:7

My beliefs are my beliefs; they instruct me. I don't really care to talk about them, they're nobody's business. There's this guy at the racetrack who's forever talking about his religion and he hasn't provided me with a single winning horse yet!

[buflineks]

I prefer Hosea 9:7

There's this guy at the racetrack who's forever talking about his religion and he hasn't provided me with a single winning horse yet!

pesky Catholics! :)):)):)):))

[Ron Jon]

I prefer Hosea 9:7

My beliefs are my beliefs; they instruct me. I don't really care to talk about them, they're nobody's business. There's this guy at the racetrack who's forever talking about his religion and he hasn't provided me with a single winning horse yet!Touché

[Harmonious]

What does a traditional Lutheran funeral entail?

[vir doctus]

What does a traditional Lutheran funeral entail?

General idea: http://www.mountolive.ca/funeral.htm

[Harmonious]

General idea: http://www.mountolive.ca/funeral.htm

Thanks.

The reason I asked is that I went to the first non-Jewish funeral I've ever attended today.

My father's cousin was married to a non-Jewish woman. If I told you that I'm the most religious person in my family, that would include both the Jewish members as well as the non-Jewish members. It is just a little background for you, so you see where I'm coming from.

Neil's wife was Lutheran. Kind of. If either Neil or Rosemarie were more religious, they probably would never have found each other. Such as it was, Neil is Jewish, and Rosemarie was Lutheran.

The entire funeral was attended by Neil's family and friends, with the exception of one nephew that they didn't share.

The atmosphere was very different than what I am used to, especially considering that until today, I've only attended Jewish funerals. There was music, for one, during "visiting hours." There was a collage of pictures of Rosemarie during her life, and the coffin was of cloth and strong cardboard, with metal handles. (She was to be cremated.) There were flowers all over the place. The music was from a CD that Neil put together, of songs that adequately reflected his feelings.

The atmosphere was lighthearted. It was the first time I saw their daughter Eve smile since Rosemarie became fatally ill. It was more of a celebration of her life, with happy reminisces of old times.

The flowers, I kind of expected. The music kind of sent me through a loop.

The service was called for 4:30pm, but the minister was late. No one minded too much, though. Once he got there, he welcomed everyone, reminding us of why we were gathered together. He recited the 23rd Psalm, and something from Paul that focused on love. (I wouldn't know where to look for it, but the main formula of these verses was something to the effect of, "There is _____, but without love, there is nothing.")

Then the minister eulogized a bit, and then invited the attendants to offer their words and memories. Neil did, a cousin or two did, a friend or two did, their daughter Eve did. The minister said some more kind words about Rosemarie, and then he noticed how much love was in the room, and given from all the family present. After a few more comments in this general direction, he declared the service over. Then, there was lots of hugging, and somewhere between 20 and 25 of us headed to a restaurant, and that pretty much was it.

At some point, I asked what kind of minister it was, and was told "a Protestant." I figured that, as I know it wasn't Jewish, and I had a feeling that there were more stylized things going on at a Catholic or Greek Orthodox funeral than actually happened.

As I continued to ask further, I realized that the cousin I asked simply didn't know. She wasn't Jewish, but she probably didn't subscribe to any other religion, either. Apparently, the minister was a fellow from the funeral home, and he was on call. (He did a lovely job, by the way, from what I could tell.) I guess that since Rosemarie was Lutheran (kind of), they figured that the service was Lutheran.

It certainly didn't have all of the stuff that was listed in the site you pointed out. There wasn't any mention of Jesus at all. (I was kind of surprised.) The only thing that specifically marked the funeral as Christian, as far as I could tell, was the cross on the coffin and the fact that the minister mentioned that selection from the NT.

Over all, it was odd and new to my experience, but it made a lot of sense, considering where we all come from. Since the service was nominally "Lutheran," I wanted to know what a Lutheran service was like.

It was a time of love, laughter, and weirdness to me. But it was appropriate, and what the family wanted.