Ask A Catholic

[RayMan]

I agree with terri. This would be a better venue to explore Roman Catholicism than a thread titled "Why aren't you a Roman Catholic."

Ask and learn.

[CID_0687]

Ray, you converted?

[RayMan]

Not yet. :mrgreen:

Terri and I were talking in another thread and she mentioned that it might be better to start an Ask A Catholic thread rather than continue in that thread. So I did it.

[terri910]

Ray, you converted?
*LOL*

My fault. I said there *should* be one.

I've never started one, because I do not feel as though I am knowledgeable enough to start an "Ask A Catholic" thread, and besides which, past experience has sort of taught me that Catholic threads tend to be a magnet for anti-Catholic rhetoric rather than questions.

But, since the thread is here, I'll give it my best shot and hope the other Catholic members of Hannity's RF give their explanations, too.

One initial point: I will defer any and all "Catholic history" questions to Hadassah, Buf, Arch, Loy, mat1618, meggers......okay, I will defer any and all "Catholic history" questions to all other Catholics! :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

All of the above will no doubt give marvelously helpful answers.


I see buf more in a bouncer/pit bull kind of role. :mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

*LOL*

My fault. I said there *should* be one.

I've never started one, because I do not feel as though I am knowledgeable enough to start an "Ask A Catholic" thread, and besides which, past experience has sort of taught me that Catholic threads tend to be a magnet for anti-Catholic rhetoric rather than questions.

But, since the thread is here, I'll give it my best shot and hope the other Catholic members of Hannity's RF give their explanations, too.

One initial point: I will defer any and all "Catholic history" questions to Hadassah, Buf, Arch, Loy, mat1618, meggers......okay, I will defer any and all "Catholic history" questions to all other Catholics! :mrgreen:
Hey don't feel bad...I started the Ask a Pentecostal thread...but did it knowing that Ray would have my back. :D

[CID_0687]

I'll ask the first question, I already know the answer, but just wanna get the ball rolling.

Why do Catholics believe that it's necessary to confess to a Priest?

[Hadassah]

*LOL*

My fault. I said there *should* be one.

I've never started one, because I do not feel as though I am knowledgeable enough to start an "Ask A Catholic" thread, and besides which, past experience has sort of taught me that Catholic threads tend to be a magnet for anti-Catholic rhetoric rather than questions.

But, since the thread is here, I'll give it my best shot and hope the other Catholic members of Hannity's RF give their explanations, too.

One initial point: I will defer any and all "Catholic history" questions to Hadassah, Buf, Arch, Loy, mat1618, meggers......okay, I will defer any and all "Catholic history" questions to all other Catholics! :mrgreen:


I thought someone already started one quite a few months back. :confused:

[RayMan]

I thought someone already started one quite a few months back. :confused:

I went back and looked at that one. It was a train wreck started by someone who doesn't believe Catholics are saved. I thought we would do better not bumping it.

[terri910]

Ray wondered why Catholics believe that public revelation ended with Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

First, it is necessary to understand the Catholic viewpoint of the difference between public and private revelation.

New Advent gives a short explanation of the difference in the first part of the first paragraph of an article on private revelations:
There are two kinds of revelations: (1) universal revelations, which are contained in the Bible (http://www.newadvent.org/bible) or in the depositum of Apostolic tradition (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm) transmitted by the Church. These ended with the preaching of the Apostles and must be believed by all; (2) particular or private revelations which are constantly occurring among Christians (see CONTEMPLATION (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04324b.htm)). When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) or good morals (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10559a.htm), and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11189a.htm) is thereby imposed on the faithful (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05769a.htm) to believe them.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm
It remains here to distinguish the Christian Revelation or "deposit of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm)" from what are termedprivate revelations. This distinction is of importance: for while the Church recognizes that God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) has spoken to His servants in every age, and still continues thus to favour chosen souls (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm), she is careful to distinguish these revelations from the Revelation which has been committed to her charge, and which she proposes to all her members for their acceptance. That Revelation was given in its entirety to Our Lord and His Apostles (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm). and His After the death of the last of the twelve it could receive no increment. It was, as the Church calls it, a deposit -- "the faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) once delivered to the saints (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm)" (Jude, 2) -- for which the Church was to "contend" but to which she could add nothing. Thus, whenever there has been question of defining a doctrine, whether at Nicæa, at Trent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm), or at the Vatican (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15303a.htm), the sole point of debate has been as to whether the doctrine is found in Scripture or in Apostolic tradition (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm). The gift of Divine assistance (see I), sometimes confounded with Revelation by the less instructed of anti-Catholic writers, merely preserves the supreme pontiff from error (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05525a.htm) in defining the faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm); it does not enable him to add jot or tittle to it. All subsequent revelations conferred by God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) are known as private revelations, for the reason that they are not directed to the whole Church but are for the good of individual members alone, They may indeed be a legitimate object for our faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm); but that will depend on the evidence in each particular case.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm

I've highlighted what I believe is the answer to your question, RayMan.

[terri910]

I went back and looked at that one. It was a train wreck started by someone who doesn't believe Catholics are saved. I thought we would do better not bumping it.
Which just shores up my perception of experience with Catholic threads! *L*

[buflineks]

Ray, you converted?

We brought in the Nuns.

(Ref. Mel Brooks, History of the World. Part I.)

[terri910]

I'll ask the first question, I already know the answer, but just wanna get the ball rolling.

Why do Catholics believe that it's necessary to confess to a Priest?
First of all, let's make clear that Catholics believe that forgiveness of all sins ultimately comes from Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. We believe that Jesus left two ways that individuals can receive this forgiveness of sins: (1) Baptism, which we believe was given to take away Original Sin and any actual (those we commit, as opposed to Adam's) sins committed before baptism, and (2) the sacrament of Reconciliation (also known as confession) for actual sins.

We believe that Jesus gave the Apostles a sort of "power of attorney" which could be passed on to their successors. in John 20;21-23, Jesus says:
21 14 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot14) (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 15 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot15) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 16 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot16) Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
Not only were the Apostles to carry Jesus' message to all the world, but His forgiveness, as well.

Catholics believe that both Baptism and Confession are sacraments, and so an outward sign and a source of God's grace.

[bluebird]

Okay, so just so I understand this -- because I thought I did, but after reading Terri's quotes from New Advent I'm confused again --

Public revelation ended with Christ & His Apostles, but private revelation is still occurring to individuals. Correct? And the Pope's role in the Church is basically to make sure the Church stays in line with the teachings of the revelations given in the Bible. Did I get that right?

[CID_0687]

First of all, let's make clear that Catholics believe that forgiveness of all sins ultimately comes from Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. We believe that Jesus left two ways that individuals can receive this forgiveness of sins: (1) Baptism, which we believe was given to take away Original Sin and any actual (those we commit, as opposed to Adam's) sins committed before baptism, and (2) the sacrament of Reconciliation (also known as confession) for actual sins.

We believe that Jesus gave the Apostles a sort of "power of attorney" which could be passed on to their successors. in John 20;21-23, Jesus says:
21 14 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot14) (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 15 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot15) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 16 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot16) Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
Not only were the Apostles to carry Jesus' message to all the world, but His forgiveness, as well.

Catholics believe that both Baptism and Confession are sacraments, and so an outward sign and a source of God's grace.
Thank you Terri.

[terri910]

Okay, so just so I understand this -- because I thought I did, but after reading Terri's quotes from New Advent I'm confused again --

Public revelation ended with Christ & His Apostles, but private revelation is still occurring to individuals. Correct? And the Pope's role in the Church is basically to make sure the Church stays in line with the teachings of the revelations given in the Bible. Did I get that right?
That sounds about right.

But, then, I'm not the Pope, so I could totally be fallible on these things! :razz:

[RayMan]

Ray wondered why Catholics believe that public revelation ended with Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

First, it is necessary to understand the Catholic viewpoint of the difference between public and private revelation.

New Advent gives a short explanation of the difference in the first part of the first paragraph of an article on private revelations:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm

I've highlighted what I believe is the answer to your question, RayMan.

Thank you terri. You did indeed answer my question. Also raised a similarity between Catholicism and Pentecostalism.

We use different terminology but when Pentecostals speak of a message in tongues and interpretation or prophecy it somewhat answers to the Catholic idea of "private revelation."

When a prophetic revelation comes to a Pentecostal believer or is shared during a church service people are encouraged to "test" the revelation to see whether it is in harmony with the New Testament.

[terri910]

Thank you terri. You did indeed answer my question. Also raised a similarity between Catholicism and Pentecostalism.

We use different terminology but when Pentecostal speak of a message in tongues and interpretation or prophecy it somewhat answers to the Catholic idea of "private revelation."

When a prophetic revelation comes to a Pentecostal believer or is shared a church service people are encouraged to "test" the revelation to see whether it is in harmony with the New Testament.
I never thought of it that way, RayMan, but I think you have a point there (and I don't mean on the top of your head!)...

[Gem]

I never thought of it that way, RayMan, but I think you have a point there (and I don't mean on the top of your head!)...


He keeps it hid with that hat he keeps on all the time. :clap:

[RayMan]

He keeps it hid with that hat he keeps on all the time. :clap:
:mrgreen:

[meggers49]

All of the above will no doubt give marvelously helpful answers.


I see buf more in a bouncer/pit bull kind of role. :mrgreen:

pouting. I want that role. Buf is waaaaaaay smarter than I am about pretty much everything.....and I AM the designated hug repeller..........AAAAAAAAAAND the drunks, nuts, druggies and general scoundrals at work are afraid of me....puuuuuuuuleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can i be the bouncer?? huh? please?

added to say.....I will do what I can to help in this thread, but I am NO authority and do not play one on tv.

[terri910]

pouting. I want that role. Buf is waaaaaaay smarter than I am about pretty much everything.....and I AM the designated hug repeller..........AAAAAAAAAAND the drunks, nuts, druggies and general scoundrals at work are afraid of me....puuuuuuuuleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can i be the bouncer?? huh? please?

:shifty:

You think I'M going to argue with someone that scares the drunks, nuts and druggies??!!?? Not on your life!

[meggers49]

We brought in the Nuns.

(Ref. Mel Brooks, History of the World. Part I.)

'doing a soft shoe' :dance: The Inquisition (What a show)
The Inquisition (Here we go)
We know youre wishing that wed go away
But the inquisitions here and its here to stay :dance:

The Catholics confess to a priest for several reasons. First, the priest is in place of Christ (locum Christe ...correct term buf?) not Christ himself, also, We believe that when Christ said to Peter what he bound on earth was bound in heaven and what he loosed on earth was loosed in heaven, it put the sacrament of confession in the lap of the priest. This is because we believe that Christ put Peter in charge of the Church and the role of the priest stems from that..........

there is much more, but i'm sure it will be discussed.

[meggers49]

Thank you terri. You did indeed answer my question. Also raised a similarity between Catholicism and Pentecostalism.

We use different terminology but when Pentecostals speak of a message in tongues and interpretation or prophecy it somewhat answers to the Catholic idea of "private revelation."

When a prophetic revelation comes to a Pentecostal believer or is shared during a church service people are encouraged to "test" the revelation to see whether it is in harmony with the New Testament.

Most all people who are receiving messages (private revelations) have spiritual advisors. They are normally priests who read what they have revealed and look at scripture to see if anything they say is in conflict. They also spend a lot of time in prayer both before and after receiving messages. When they are getting messages they ask God to help them test the message to make sure it's a message from God and not a demonic deceiver.

The Church doesn't generally sanction messages received while the messenger is alive. odd, but true. The closest we can come to that at this time is JP11 and Medjugorie. He personally felt that it was and is a real place of miraculous appearances and messages. The Church hasn't approved them yet.

The Church approves and disapproves of messages and messengers. Often it is done after the person who received the messages is dead and/or others involved as often clergy (especially for some reason Bishops) are resistant to this and declare things frauds that aren't.

The Holy Spirit moves in the Church, but the Church doesn't take it lightly, nor does it believe everyone who says they are receiving messages/words of knowledge, however you want to refer to it.

[Koushi Shinigami]

pouting. I want that role. Buf is waaaaaaay smarter than I am about pretty much everything.....and I AM the designated hug repeller..........AAAAAAAAAAND the drunks, nuts, druggies and general scoundrals at work are afraid of me....puuuuuuuuleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease can i be the bouncer?? huh? please?

added to say.....I will do what I can to help in this thread, but I am NO authority and do not play one on tv.

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[vir doctus]

"... Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


You do or do not have this power?

[melinda]

First of all, let's make clear that Catholics believe that forgiveness of all sins ultimately comes from Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. We believe that Jesus left two ways that individuals can receive this forgiveness of sins: (1) Baptism, which we believe was given to take away Original Sin and any actual (those we commit, as opposed to Adam's) sins committed before baptism, and (2) the sacrament of Reconciliation (also known as confession) for actual sins.

We believe that Jesus gave the Apostles a sort of "power of attorney" which could be passed on to their successors. in John 20;21-23, Jesus says:
21 14 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot14) (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 15 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot15) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 16 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm#foot16) Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
Not only were the Apostles to carry Jesus' message to all the world, but His forgiveness, as well.

Catholics believe that both Baptism and Confession are sacraments, and so an outward sign and a source of God's grace.

why not confess your sins straight to God through Jesus?

How often do you go to Confession?

[angelicmadrigal]

why not confess your sins straight to God through Jesus?

I've always seen it this way in part the priest holds you ACCOUNTABLE for your sins. Much in the same way as a therapist. I've always seen the preist as a person that doesn't condmen or punish you, but is able to give you REAL world advice on hwo to live in accordance with the Catholic teachings. So confession is about having your sins forgiven through intercession AND receiving guidance.


How often do you go to Confession?

My grandmother goes once a month. Not like she needs to go, she's a ::eyeroll over word that was here that people can't deal with:: saint.

[melinda]

I've always seen it this way in part the priest holds you ACCOUNTABLE for your sins. Much in the same way as a therapist. I've always seen the preist as a person that doesn't condmen or punish you, but is able to give you REAL world advice on hwo to live in accordance with the Catholic teachings. So confession is about having your sins forgiven through intercession AND receiving guidance.



My grandmother goes once a month. Not like she needs to go, she's a fricking saint.

are you Catholic?
were you raised Catholic?

[terri910]

You do or do not have this power?
I have the ability to forgive sins on my behalf only. I do not have that "power of attorney" that I believe Jesus gave to the priesthood. I don't think me forgiving wrongs against me imparts any special grace to the person who has requested forgiveness.

[angelicmadrigal]

are you Catholic?
were you raised Catholic?
Am I catholic NOW? no.

I was raised Catholic, and went through 12 years of Catholic school. One of my HS teachers had a doctorate in Canon Law. I like him, he called me a heretic and meant it as a COMPLIMENT. Hands down the most AWESOME priest I've ever met. Bishop of Tahiti indeed...::giggles::

[vir doctus]

I have the ability to forgive sins on my behalf only. I do not have that "power of attorney" that I believe Jesus gave to the priesthood. I don't think me forgiving wrongs against me imparts any special grace to the person who has requested forgiveness.

Mt. 18? :eh:

[terri910]

why not confess your sins straight to God through Jesus?
I do that -- a LOT. But, I also believe in the necessity of the sacrament of confession. I know I often quote from Catholic websites -- but they have a way of putting things much more concisely than I do. (I have found my ability to do that has decreased in the last few years)....anyway, I hope this helps explain it:


"For those who after baptism have fallen into sin, the Sacrament of Penance is as necessary unto salvation as is baptism itself for those who have not yet been regenerated" (Council of Trent, Sess. XIV, c. 2). Penance, therefore, is not an institution the use of which was left to the option of each sinner so that he might, if he preferred, hold aloof from the Church and secure forgiveness by some other means, e.g., by acknowledging his sin in the privacy of his own mind. As already stated, the power granted by Christ to the Apostles is twofold, to forgive and to retain, in such a way that what they forgive God forgives and what they retain God retains. But this grant would be nullified if, in case the Church retained the sins of penitent, he could, as it were, take appeal to God's tribunal and obtain pardon. Nor would the power to retain have any meaning if the sinner, passing over the Church, went in the first instance to God, since by the very terms of the grant, God retains sin once committed so long as it is not remitted by the Church. It would indeed have been strangely inconsistent if Christ in conferring this twofold power on the Apostles had intended to provide some other means of forgiveness such as confessing "to God alone". Not only the Apostles, but any one with an elementary knowledge of human nature would have perceived at once that the easier means would be chosen and that the grant of power so formally and solemnly made by Christ had no real significance (Palmieri, op. cit., thesis X). On the other hand, once it is admitted that the grant was effectual and consequently that the sacrament is necessary in order to obtain forgiveness, it plainly follows that the penitent must in some way make known his sin to those who exercise the power. This is conceded even by those who reject the Sacrament of Penance as a Divine institution. "Such remission was manifestly impossible without the declaration of the offences to be forgiven" (Lea, "History etc.", I, p. 182). The Council of Trent, after declaring that Christ left his priests as His vicars unto whom as rulers and judges the faithful must make known their sins, adds: "It is evident that the priests could not have exercised this judgment without knowledge of the cause, nor could they have observed justice in enjoining satisfaction if (the faithful) had declared their sins in a general way only and not specifically and in detail" (Sess. XIV, c. 5). Since the priest in the pardoning of sin exercises a strict judicial function, Christ must will that such tremendous power be used wisely and prudently. Moreover, in virtue of the grant of Christ the priest can forgive all sins without distinction, quoecumque solveritis. How can a wise and prudent judgment be rendered if the priest be in ignorance of the cause on which judgment is pronounced? And how can he obtain the requisite knowledge unless it come from the spontaneous acknowledgment of the sinner? This necessity of manifestation is all the clearer if satisfaction for sin, which from the beginning has been part of the penitential discipline, is to be imposed not only wisely but also justify. That there is a necessary connection between the prudent judgment of the confessor and the detailed confession of sins is evident from the nature of a judicial procedure and especially from a full analysis of the grant of Christ in the light of tradition. No judge may release or condemn without full knowledge of the case. And again the tradition of the earliest time sees in the words of Christ not only the office of the judge sitting in judgment, but the kindness of a father who weeps with the repentant child (Aphraates, "Ep. de Poenitentia", dem. 7) and the skill of the physician who after the manner of Christ heals the wounds of the soul (Origen in P.G., XII, 418; P.L., XII, 1086). Clearly, therefore, the words of Christ imply the doctrine of the external manifestation of conscience to a priest in order to obtain pardon.
full article here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

How often do you go to Confession?
As often as necessary. I believe one should be in a state of grace to receive Holy Communion. Mortal sins must be confessed, venial sins may be confessed (but I figure why bother trying to figure out which are which, so I just confess what sins I am aware I have committed).

[terri910]

Mt. 18? :eh:
I am unable to figure out what your cryptic question is, vir.

[RayMan]

I am unable to figure out what your cryptic question is, vir.

I would assume she is referencing this:

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

[Koushi Shinigami]

why not confess your sins straight to God through Jesus?


I've never ever heard a Catholic say that they could not go straight to God as Jesus taught us. BTW, how do you go straight by taking a detour through something else? :think:



How often do you go to Confession?



That sounds like a personal question. :eek:

[Koushi Shinigami]

My grandmother goes once a month. Not like she needs to go, she's a <snip> saint.

You REALY need to edit that. What you did can be considered a filter bypass and is grounds for banning.

I'm only offering this as a friendly warning.

[melinda]

I've never ever heard a Catholic say that they could not go straight to God as Jesus taught us. BTW, how do you go straight by taking a detour through something else? :think:
true...about the Catholics going straight to God. terri very nicely answered me on that one.
and for pointing out my "straight detour" ... :))





That sounds like a personal question. :eek:

it is..... :)

[terri910]

That sounds like a personal question. :eek:
It was. Very.

But I answered with all the information melinda needs to know.

[terri910]

I would assume she is referencing this:

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
She referenced the whole chapter, so I know it included that. What I don't know is what she's asking about it. I could assume that she thinks there is some sort of disparity, but (1) I don't like to assume, and (2) even if the assumption were correct, I have no idea what she thinks the disparity IS.

[melinda]

I do that -- a LOT. But, I also believe in the necessity of the sacrament of confession. I know I often quote from Catholic websites -- but they have a way of putting things much more concisely than I do. (I have found my ability to do that has decreased in the last few years)....anyway, I hope this helps explain it:

full article here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm


As often as necessary. I believe one should be in a state of grace to receive Holy Communion. Mortal sins must be confessed, venial sins [/i]may[/i] be confessed (but I figure why bother trying to figure out which are which, so I just confess what sins I am aware I have committed).

thank you, terri.
that does help....

[melinda]

It was. Very.

But I answered with all the information melinda needs to know.

yes, you did. and I appreciate that.
I loved how you answered.

[angelicmadrigal]

You REALY need to edit that. What you did can be considered a filter bypass and is grounds for banning.

Oh for the love of......::eyeroll::

There it's changed.

[vir doctus]

She referenced the whole chapter, so I know it included that. What I don't know is what she's asking about it. I could assume that she thinks there is some sort of disparity, but (1) I don't like to assume, and (2) even if the assumption were correct, I have no idea what she thinks the disparity IS.

In light of the citation Honourable RayMan so kindly posted, how does your following statement mesh?:I don't think me forgiving wrongs against me imparts any special grace to the person who has requested forgiveness.

[angelicmadrigal]

In my case I think I look at the PRACTICAL justification for the matter, not the scriptural.

[bluebird]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of anyone confessing to his/her ecclesiastical leader. The LDS believe that there are some things you can only repent of with the help of your Bishop. Just thought I'd show some agreement here. :hug:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of anyone confessing to his/her ecclesiastical leader. The LDS believe that there are some things you can only repent of with the help of your Bishop. Just thought I'd show some agreement here. :hug:

Me neither. What's wrong with some free counseling?

[melinda]

Me neither. What's wrong with some free counseling?

me neither ...
I've just always wondered why Catholics required it.
(is "required" the right word?)

[meggers49]

me neither ...
I've just always wondered why Catholics required it.
(is "required" the right word?)

because it's a means to grace.

It's recommended you go at least once a year, strongly suggested you go once a month, we used to go once a week, but if you can find a person who is willing to hear your confession, you can go every day.

I wonder why people question confessing your sins to a priest, but many protestants have 'altar call' where you have to confess your sins to an entire congregation!

There is also in the Catholic Church the option in confession to do it either face to face or behind a screen. People sometimes are more comfortable confessing things they might be embarrassed about behind the screen.

[vir doctus]

...but many protestants have 'altar call' where you have to confess your sins to an entire congregation!


I'd love to hear more about that! The only altar calls I know are a confession of faith.

[gpd®]

I'd love to hear more about that! The only altar calls I know are a confession of faith.

I've never been to any meeting where people were told to confess to the crowd at alter call, interesting.

I know people volunteer their testimony though.

[LKB]

Confession is to be heard by an ordained priest, not a layperson. The reason is biblically based. I don't have a Bible handy to cite the verse but it goes something like ~and Jesus said to Peter, those whose sins you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven, those whose sins you retain on earth shall be retained in Heaven ~ or something that effect. As a Catholic we believe that sins confesed to a priest and penance given and taken will remove that "stain" from our soul, thereby giving us a smoother road to heaven. Does that mean that if someone NEVER goes to confession they will not be granted a place in Heaven - no only it may take a bit longer to get there as they atone for those sins. My priest uses the example of ~do ya want to take a 747 to Heaven or the bus?~ Confession = 747

[gpd®]

Confession is to be heard by an ordained priest, not a layperson. The reason is biblically based. I don't have a Bible handy to cite the verse but it goes something like ~and Jesus said to Peter, those whose sins you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven, those whose sins you retain on earth shall be retained in Heaven ~ or something that effect. As a Catholic we believe that sins confesed to a priest and penance given and taken will remove that "stain" from our soul, thereby giving us a smoother road to heaven. Does that mean that if someone NEVER goes to confession they will not be granted a place in Heaven - no only it may take a bit longer to get there as they atone for those sins. My priest uses the example of ~do ya want to take a 747 to Heaven or the bus?~ Confession = 747

But If I had to, I'd rather be on the bus to heaven then on the Rolls Royce to Hell.;)

[melinda]

because it's a means to grace.

It's recommended you go at least once a year, strongly suggested you go once a month, we used to go once a week, but if you can find a person who is willing to hear your confession, you can go every day.

I wonder why people question confessing your sins to a priest, but many protestants have 'altar call' where you have to confess your sins to an entire congregation!

There is also in the Catholic Church the option in confession to do it either face to face or behind a screen. People sometimes are more comfortable confessing things they might be embarrassed about behind the screen.

I confess my sins to God every day; most days many times a day.
I could go to a Pastor if and when I wanted, but it's not "required".


am I right in guessing that Catholics, besides their visit to the Confessional, also confess their sins before God on a more regular basis?

[melinda]

Confession is to be heard by an ordained priest, not a layperson. The reason is biblically based. I don't have a Bible handy to cite the verse but it goes something like ~and Jesus said to Peter, those whose sins you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven, those whose sins you retain on earth shall be retained in Heaven ~ or something that effect. As a Catholic we believe that sins confesed to a priest and penance given and taken will remove that "stain" from our soul, thereby giving us a smoother road to heaven. Does that mean that if someone NEVER goes to confession they will not be granted a place in Heaven - no only it may take a bit longer to get there as they atone for those sins. My priest uses the example of ~do ya want to take a 747 to Heaven or the bus?~ Confession = 747
I thought Jesus dying on that cross removed that "stain" from my soul.....

[melinda]

and for the record, I realize sometimes I can be sarcastic and/or attempt humor, this is not either of those times. I honestly am trying to understand....
:)

[gpd®]

and for the record, I realize sometimes I can be sarcastic and/or attempt humor, this is not either of those times. I honestly am trying to understand....
:)

It is a matter of figuring if Jesus was being literal or was using hyperbole.

Just like the story of Nicodemus, Jesus didn't mean literally reentering your mother's womb.

Jesus telling Peter that what ever he binds on Earth, etc., is one of those stories that Catholics find literal and others see as hyperbole.

[Semi-Sweet]

Confession is to be heard by an ordained priest, not a layperson. The reason is biblically based. I don't have a Bible handy to cite the verse but it goes something like ~and Jesus said to Peter, those whose sins you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven, those whose sins you retain on earth shall be retained in Heaven ~ or something that effect. As a Catholic we believe that sins confesed to a priest and penance given and taken will remove that "stain" from our soul, thereby giving us a smoother road to heaven. Does that mean that if someone NEVER goes to confession they will not be granted a place in Heaven - no only it may take a bit longer to get there as they atone for those sins. My priest uses the example of ~do ya want to take a 747 to Heaven or the bus?~ Confession = 747

If what you are saying is true what about this verse?

James 5:16. . ."Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."

What about these verses where Paul asked his brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for him?

Romans 15:30. . ."I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in earnest prayer to God on my behalf, that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my ministry to Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints."

I want my humble brothers and sisters praying for me.

[meggers49]

I confess my sins to God every day; most days many times a day.
I could go to a Pastor if and when I wanted, but it's not "required".


am I right in guessing that Catholics, besides their visit to the Confessional, also confess their sins before God on a more regular basis?

absolutely. and every Mass starts with the Penitential Rite where we ask for forgiveness. Lord, Have mercy. Christ, Have mercy. Lord, Have Mercy. and the priest says, May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life.

to which we reply, Amen.

ETA, we also have a prayer called the Confiteor where we ask for forgiveness and ask Mary and the angels and saints to pray for us to the Lord our God.

ETA AFTER the edit...: it says "I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. In what I have done and what I have failed to do, I ask Blessed Mary, all the angels and saints and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord, our God. Amen.

our Act of Contrition states

Oh God, I am heartily sorry for having offended you. I detest all my sins because I fear the loss of heaven and the pains of hell. I firmly intend with the help of your grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.

there are many ways of stating this. basically a 'good act of contrition' involves saying that you know you erred, you are sorry and you seek to be forgiven.

[meggers49]

I thought Jesus dying on that cross removed that "stain" from my soul.....

Jesus on the cross gave us the grace, but we are still sinners.

There was a verse in one of the other threads that Paul said something about the soul needing cleansing before getting to heaven. Confession, penance and purgatory are the "super kiss'' of the soul so you can be spankin' new and go to heaven.

Your salvation may be assured, but as when you have a child who is forgiven for something, but needs to have discipline so is penance and purgatory.

[vir doctus]

I know people volunteer their testimony though.

We've all got one of those! Beneficial for helping those young in the faith and those who need encouragement.

[Koushi Shinigami]

me neither ...
I've just always wondered why Catholics required it.
(is "required" the right word?)


I don't think so.

[Koushi Shinigami]

If what you are saying is true what about this verse?

James 5:16. . ."Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."

What about these verses where Paul asked his brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for him?

Romans 15:30. . ."I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in earnest prayer to God on my behalf, that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my ministry to Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints."

I want my humble brothers and sisters praying for me.

I'm pretty sure Catholics engage in group prayer at every church service.

[Semi-Sweet]

I'm pretty sure Catholics engage in group prayer at every church service.

You need to tell LKB.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You need to tell LKB.

Y? Being as he seems to be Catholic, he'd know for sure.

If not, all one (even you) would have to do is read Meggers post.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46804121&postcount=59

[I_cant_vote_yet]

I confess my sins to God every day; most days many times a day.
I could go to a Pastor if and when I wanted, but it's not "required".


am I right in guessing that Catholics, besides their visit to the Confessional, also confess their sins before God on a more regular basis?

Of course, but we believe that while we may be privately forgiven our sins through private prayer with God, we need to have confession to become clean. I have prayed to God many times for forgiveness outside the confessional, but I recognize that it is still very important to actually go to confession.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Of course, but we believe that while we may be privately forgiven our sins through private prayer with God, we need to have confession to become clean. I have prayed to God many times for forgiveness outside the confessional, but I recognize that it is still very important to actually go to confession.

And how does that make you feel?

[I_cant_vote_yet]

And how does that make you feel?

Well, as a high schooler I am around many people who don't take faith serioiusly, which is sad because I go to a Catholic high school. But personally, I take confession very seriously and truely do feel clean after coming out of the confessional.

[Semi-Sweet]

Y? Being as he seems to be Catholic, he'd know for sure.

If not, all one (even you) would have to do is read Meggers post.

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46804121&postcount=59

I read Meggers post. I asked LKB what he thought about those verses, because of what he posted and because I wanted to know. I know what Meggers believes, I have a cousin who was Catholic and I have studied the faith and I don't have a problem with the Catholic faith, or any other faith for that matter.

This is a religion discussion forum, not a church where we all must believe alike. I thought people were here because they wanted to discuss their religious beliefs.

This thread is titled "Ask a Catholic" right?

[vir doctus]

I I thought people were here because they wanted to discuss their religious beliefs.


:shifty:

[Semi-Sweet]

:shifty:

:silenced: :D

[meggers49]

Of course, but we believe that while we may be privately forgiven our sins through private prayer with God, we need to have confession to become clean. I have prayed to God many times for forgiveness outside the confessional, but I recognize that it is still very important to actually go to confession.

as I have said before, there is something about saying your sins out loud to another that 'puts light on the sin' and takes the...what's the word? power, i guess, out of it. somehow, doing that releases you and the devil can't use it to 'beat you up'.

[melinda]

Of course, but we believe that while we may be privately forgiven our sins through private prayer with God, we need to have confession to become clean. I have prayed to God many times for forgiveness outside the confessional, but I recognize that it is still very important to actually go to confession.

I guess what I have a problem understanding is that if your sins are forgiven through private prayer with God why do you only become clean through confession?

ETA: I just read meggers reply to this very question.... :)

[terri910]

In light of the citation Honourable RayMan so kindly posted, how does your following statement mesh?:
Since I am failing to see any "non-meshing" perhaps you can tell me how you think it doesn't mesh.

[terri910]

I thought Jesus dying on that cross removed that "stain" from my soul.....
Did it before you accepted it?

If you believe that everyone is saved -- no matter what they believe or do, because of Jesus' sacrifice at calvary, then your comment makes sense in regards to what you believe.

If you believe that one must accept Jesus as their savior before that "stain" is removed, then your comment implies that Catholic believe anything other than Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is the source of removing the stain of sin -- which could not be further from the truth.

[terri910]

But If I had to, I'd rather be on the bus to heaven then on the Rolls Royce to Hell.;)
So would I....and I hope I am correct in assuming that you are not implying that Catholics are in such a Rolls Royce route.

[byzantine catholic]

So would I....and I hope I am correct in assuming that you are not implying that Catholics are in such a Rolls Royce route.I've seen some Roman Catholics with some nice, expensive cars.

[terri910]

If what you are saying is true what about this verse?

James 5:16. . ."Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."

What about these verses where Paul asked his brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for him?

Romans 15:30. . ."I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in earnest prayer to God on my behalf, that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my ministry to Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints."

I want my humble brothers and sisters praying for me.
Once again, I'm simply not seeing how what was said in the post you are replying to contradicts the scriptures you're referencing. Do you think that Catholics do not believe and ask for their brethren in Christ to pray for them -- for heaven's sake we get grief for doing so, when we include those who are no longer on earth but we believe to be alive in Christ.

[terri910]

You need to tell LKB.
You'll need to point out to me the part of LKB's post (which I've read a couple of times now) that indicates Catholics do not engage in group prayer....I just am not seeing it. :eh:

[terri910]

I've seen some Roman Catholics with some nice, expensive cars.
Yes. What direction are they going in, however?

[melinda]

Did it before you accepted it?

If you believe that everyone is saved -- no matter what they believe or do, because of Jesus' sacrifice at calvary, then your comment makes sense in regards to what you believe.

If you believe that one must accept Jesus as their savior before that "stain" is removed, then your comment implies that Catholic believe anything other than Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is the source of removing the stain of sin -- which could not be further from the truth.

I believe Jesus died for everyone's sins ... but some choose not to accept His wonderful gift. For this reason, not all will be saved.

[melinda]

Did it before you accepted it?

If you believe that everyone is saved -- no matter what they believe or do, because of Jesus' sacrifice at calvary, then your comment makes sense in regards to what you believe.

If you believe that one must accept Jesus as their savior before that "stain" is removed, then your comment implies that Catholic believe anything other than Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is the source of removing the stain of sin -- which could not be further from the truth.

I was replying to this post when I made my comment:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46802041&postcount=52

LKB posted that sins confessed to a Priest and the penance given and taken is what removed that 'stain' from our souls ...
I believe Jesus died for my sins and it was by His blood that the 'stain' of sin was washed from my soul.

so what is it for Catholics? I'm here to learn.......... :)

[Hadassah]

I was replying to this post when I made my comment:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46802041&postcount=52

LKB posted that sins confessed to a Priest and the penance given and taken is what removed that 'stain' from our souls ...
I believe Jesus died for my sins and it was by His blood that the 'stain' of sin was washed from my soul.

so what is it for Catholics? I'm here to learn.......... :)


It's both. We believe that the main channel that Jesus gave us to impart His forgiveness was via confession to a priest. He gives us that grace that He obtained for us with His sacrifice on the cross thru the confessional.





I hope I'm explaining that right.

[byzantine catholic]

Yes. What direction are they going in, however?Huh?

[melinda]

It's both. We believe that the main channel that Jesus gave us to impart His forgiveness was via confession to a priest. He gives us that grace that He obtained for us with His sacrifice on the cross thru the confessional.

thank you, Haddie. I was going to guess or assume both ... but I didn't want to assume or guess. I wanted to hear it, or should I say 'read it' from someone who is Catholic.

[melinda]

It's both. We believe that the main channel that Jesus gave us to impart His forgiveness was via confession to a priest. He gives us that grace that He obtained for us with His sacrifice on the cross thru the confessional.





I hope I'm explaining that right.

I think you are ... well, I mean, I'm not Catholic, but it made sense to this little Lutheran girl. :)

[terri910]

I believe Jesus died for everyone's sins ... but some choose not to accept His wonderful gift. For this reason, not all will be saved.
I thought that was probably the case! ;)

Now, then....what it appears we agree upon: that one must accept Jesus' sacrifice in order for the stain of sin to be removed.

Where we might disagree (you would have to confirm this, because I am not certain what you believe), is that Catholics believe that it is possible to sin even after accepting Jesus' sacrifice.

[terri910]

Huh?
Context, byzantine, context. ;)

[byzantine catholic]

Context, byzantine, context. ;)Sorry but I am not too bright so tell me.;)

[melinda]

I thought that was probably the case! ;)

Now, then....what it appears we agree upon: that one must accept Jesus' sacrifice in order for the stain of sin to be removed.

Where we might disagree (you would have to confirm this, because I am not certain what you believe), is that Catholics believe that it is possible to sin even after accepting Jesus' sacrifice.

We do agree on the first part: one must accept Jesus' sacrifice in order for the stain of sin to be removed.

We do agree on the second part: I, too, believe that it is possible to sin even after accepting Jesus' sacrifice. I also believe I must confess my sins. I can confess my sins with my Pastor if I so choose, but I must confess my sins to God. I can go through my Pastor, but I do not have to.

I confess my sins each and every day ... because I sin each and every day.

[Meriweather]

I was replying to this post when I made my comment:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46802041&postcount=52

LKB posted that sins confessed to a Priest and the penance given and taken is what removed that 'stain' from our souls ...
I believe Jesus died for my sins and it was by His blood that the 'stain' of sin was washed from my soul.

so what is it for Catholics? I'm here to learn.......... :)

Catholics believe that sin is not only an offense against another person and/or the community as a whole, but that it is also an offense against God.

Repenting and performing a penance are considered virtues, because love and justice are virtures. Penance is a step towards justice and it is also performed out of love for God and for contriteness that one has offended.

Jesus did his part for each of us in redeeming mankind. We have in our possession a redeemed soul, which we have the responsibility and care of. I remember one of the nuns who taught us explaining that if sin can be thought of as a soul shriveling experience, then penance--and all virtures--makes the soul expand and blossom.

[terri910]

We do agree on the first part: one must accept Jesus' sacrifice in order for the stain of sin to be removed.

We do agree on the second part: I, too, believe that it is possible to sin even after accepting Jesus' sacrifice. I also believe I must confess my sins. I can confess my sins with my Pastor if I so choose, but I must confess my sins to God. I can go through my Pastor, but I do not have to.

I confess my sins each and every day ... because I sin each and every day.
I confess my sins directly to God every day, too (and for the same reason, melinda! ;)).

Our main difference, I think, is in belief of the sacrament of Penance. Earlier I linked to a page from New Advent's website that explained it pretty well....and, of course, the Catholics that have responded on here give individual perspective on what it means to them.

Thanks so much, melinda, for being truly interested. :hug:

[terri910]

Sorry but I am not too bright so tell me.;)*LOL* I know you're bright enough....but just for you, I will give you complete context, which requires me to sift through a few pages of this thread. You're younger and should be the one to exert all this energy, but I'll do it anyway! :mrgreen:
Confession is to be heard by an ordained priest, not a layperson. The reason is biblically based. I don't have a Bible handy to cite the verse but it goes something like ~and Jesus said to Peter, those whose sins you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven, those whose sins you retain on earth shall be retained in Heaven ~ or something that effect. As a Catholic we believe that sins confesed to a priest and penance given and taken will remove that "stain" from our soul, thereby giving us a smoother road to heaven. Does that mean that if someone NEVER goes to confession they will not be granted a place in Heaven - no only it may take a bit longer to get there as they atone for those sins. My priest uses the example of ~do ya want to take a 747 to Heaven or the bus?~ Confession = 747
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46802041&postcount=52

But If I had to, I'd rather be on the bus to heaven then on the Rolls Royce to Hell.;)
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46802181&postcount=53

So would I....and I hope I am correct in assuming that you are not implying that Catholics are in such a Rolls Royce route.
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46840911&postcount=76

I've seen some Roman Catholics with some nice, expensive cars.
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46841011&postcount=77

Yes. What direction are they going in, however?
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46841371&postcount=80

So....does that take your "Huh?" away?

I hope so, because now I'm exhausted with all that running around this thread! :lol:

[byzantine catholic]

*LOL* I know you're bright enough....but just for you, I will give you complete context, which requires me to sift through a few pages of this thread. You're younger and should be the one to exert all this energy, but I'll do it anyway! :mrgreen:

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46802041&postcount=52


http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46802181&postcount=53


http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46840911&postcount=76


http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46841011&postcount=77


http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46841371&postcount=80

So....does that take your "Huh?" away?

I hope so, because now I'm exhausted with all that running around this thread! :lol:Thank you and to answer it matters if they do good works and have faith.:razz:

[melinda]

I confess my sins directly to God every day, too (and for the same reason, melinda! ;)).

Our main difference, I think, is in belief of the sacrament of Penance. Earlier I linked to a page from New Advent's website that explained it pretty well....and, of course, the Catholics that have responded on here give individual perspective on what it means to them.

Thanks so much, melinda, for being truly interested. :hug:
:hug:
I am interested...I do love learning about other religions.
and, as a Lutheran, I'm not that far-off from what Catholics believe.
I think, as you stated, perhaps our main difference is in the belief of the sacrament of Penance.

I did read the link you posted. I appreciate it...thanks.

[byzantine catholic]

:hug:
I am interested...I do love learning about other religions.
and, as a Lutheran, I'm not that far-off from what Catholics believe.
I think, as you stated, perhaps our main difference is in the belief of the sacrament of Penance.

I did read the link you posted. I appreciate it...thanks.Lutherans also do not believe in Papal infallidity and in a lot of the Catholic saints.

[melinda]

Catholics believe that sin is not only an offense against another person and/or the community as a whole, but that it is also an offense against God.

Repenting and performing a penance are considered virtues, because love and justice are virtures. Penance is a step towards justice and it is also performed out of love for God and for contriteness that one has offended.

Jesus did his part for each of us in redeeming mankind. We have in our possession a redeemed soul, which we have the responsibility and care of. I remember one of the nuns who taught us explaining that if sin can be thought of as a soul shriveling experience, then penance--and all virtures--makes the soul expand and blossom.
oh, Meri, I believe all that too...that when I sin it is not only against man, but that my sin is also an offense against God.
I think, as terri, and I have been discussing, our beliefs on this matter are not so different except when it comes to the sacrament of Penance. I believe all those things you all have posted so well for me, it's just that for me, it's not "required". (again, maybe not the best word)

I posted this a bit too quickly, so let me add:
I do believe Jesus died for the sins of everyone.
I do believe that not everyone will accept His gift and for this reason, not all will be saved.
I do believe I must confess my sins to God. I do believe when I sin, it is an offense against God.
I do believe I must repent of my sin and I must try to turn away from my sin and sin no more.
But ... b/c I am human, I will again sin and I must again confess and repent.
I do not have to confess to my Pastor, but I can if I so desire.
I do not have to do penance, but I can if I so desire.


now what did I leave out?

[terri910]

Lutherans also do not believe in Papal infallidity and in a lot of the Catholic saints.
It might be better, byzantine, to let Lutherans tell us what they believe, rather than telling them what they believe.

Maybe there will be an "Ask A Lutheran" thread soon...!

[melinda]

Lutherans also do not believe in Papal infallidity and in a lot of the Catholic saints.

yes, Lutherans and Catholics have other differences ... I meant on this particular issue I think that is the main difference.

and I also knew someone would point out the error of my wording ... I was waiting to see who it would be.


:)

[byzantine catholic]

It might be better, byzantine, to let Lutherans tell us what they believe, rather than telling them what they believe.

Maybe there will be an "Ask A Lutheran" thread soon...!melinda just agrred with me!:rolleyes:

[terri910]

melinda just agrred with me!:rolleyes:
Yes....it was just a suggestion, byzantine, borne of being on the receiving end of people telling me what I believe.

If you tell others what they believe often enough, you're bound to get it wrong eventually.

Even just a tiny bit of humility goes a long way.....

[melinda]

melinda just agrred with me!:rolleyes:

:hug:

[byzantine catholic]

Yes....it was just a suggestion, byzantine, borne of being on the receiving end of people telling me what I believe.

If you tell others what they believe often enough, you're bound to get it wrong eventually.

Even just a tiny bit of humility goes a long way.....My chief sin!:cry:

[melinda]

Now I have a couple fun and easy questions for the Catholics on here:


have you been to the Vatican?
have you ever seen the Pope up close and personal?

[byzantine catholic]

Now I have a couple fun and easy questions for the Catholics on here:


have you been to the Vatican?
have you ever seen the Pope up close and personal?No and No. I am only 17. Seen pictures though and the Vatican looks amazing.:mrgreen:

[byzantine catholic]

Pictures:http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:mOLaxtFY5ph05M:http://www.romaviva.com/Vaticano/st-peter.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.romaviva.com/Vaticano/st-peter.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.romaviva.com/Vaticano/vatican-city.htm&usg=__i7DrysQfc1VBkyo-3O5UsaVQyZQ=&h=313&w=310&sz=33&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=mOLaxtFY5ph05M:&tbnh=117&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvatican%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)
St John Lateran-the official basilica of the Bishop of Rome:http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:8Qh8UqDKNC8YvM:http://www.worldreviewer.com/images/flickrcache/1_1031_754372331_ae5091ac5e.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.worldreviewer.com/images/flickrcache/1_1031_754372331_ae5091ac5e.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.worldreviewer.com/travel-guides/church/basilica-of-st-john-lateran/11252/weather/&usg=__sK42bP08w3ARvWV_sRKMhk6s714=&h=500&w=333&sz=42&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=8Qh8UqDKNC8YvM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dst%2Bjohn%2Blateran%26um%3D1%26hl%3De n)

[terri910]

Now I have a couple fun and easy questions for the Catholics on here:


have you been to the Vatican?
have you ever seen the Pope up close and personal?
I visited the Vatican in May of 2007. Hubby and I took a Mediterranean cruise that began and ended at the port nearest Rome, so we spent a few days in Rome before flying home. (The cruise also took us to Ephesus, among other places...absolutely amazing)

My favorite parts of visiting the Vatican were seeing Michelaneglo's Pieta in person...
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/tn_Rome-StPeters41.jpg

...and -- this was the absolute best -- taking the Scavi Tour -- the excavations under St. Peter's Basillica. Thanks to vir I knew to ask for tickets MONTHS in advance, as only 120 people are allowed on any day tours are conducted. Our guide was very knowledgeable. We were able to view what is believed to be (I believe it) the apostle Peter's original tomb. There was a wall with the name "Peter" in Greek letters, as well as fragments of words that said something like "is here" or "within." There was also a small tomb above it that was built by Constantine, as a more fitting tomb for St. Peter. On the other side of the wall was a small hole, where you could look inside. There were clear boxes (plastic or glass, I can't remember) containing bones found on the site -- the bones of St. Peter. This was directly under the altar of St. Peter's Basillica.
No photos allowed in the excavation area.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/tn_Rome-StPeters21.jpg

[Meriweather]

byzantine, my lad, haven't we discussed image posting? The the size of the total number of images you post, whether it be one or one hundred and one is--

300x300 and 32kb.

You may wish to edit Post #106.

Tsk. Tsk. The things I go through to keep you out of trouble. It's like being at school.

[terri910]

*sigh*

I thought I re-sized those. I'm going to try and resize them again.

I know I'm resizing them....I wonder why they continue to come out the same size?

[Meriweather]

Terri! Speaking of trouble! Stand by. I'm resizing your pix and they will be ready for editing shortly.

(You'll have to edit your quote, too, byz.)

[byzantine catholic]

byzantine, my lad, haven't we discussed image posting? The the size of the total number of images you post, whether it be one or one hundred and one is--

300x300 and 32kb.

You may wish to edit Post #106.

Tsk. Tsk. The things I go through to keep you out of trouble. It's like being at school.What are the size of these. Lad?:sick:

[terri910]

Yeah I would like to take a tour. How about you give me some money!:razz:
I was 57 years old and my husband 60 before we were able to make the trip. We actually never imagined we would.

My advice is to do as we did: save up and make it happen for yourself. ;)

[byzantine catholic]

I was 57 years old and my husband 60 before we were able to make the trip. We actually never imagined we would.

My advice is to do as we did: save up and make it happen for yourself. ;)Or write a theological book like Dante and be requested to see the Holy Father.;)

[terri910]

Terri! Speaking of trouble! Stand by. I'm resizing your pix and they will be ready for editing shortly.

(You'll have to edit your quote, too, byz.)
Thanks, Meri.

I know I resized them wayyyy down on photobucket....but when I copy and past the IMG info, they still come out big!

[terri910]

Or write a theological book like Dante and be requested to see the Holy Father.;)
That would work, too!

[Meriweather]

What are the size of these. Lad?:sick:

You prefer laddie? Yoda, perhaps? :razz:

You do the math. You're the student, I'm the teacher.


Great job in resizing, Terri!

[byzantine catholic]

That would work, too!I am actually working on a couple of plays on the lives of the Saints!:mrgreen:

[terri910]

Great job in resizing, Terri!
Are you joking....or are they actually resized?


I'm so CONFUUUUUUUSED!

[byzantine catholic]

You prefer laddie? Yoda, perhaps? :razz:

You do the math. You're the student, I'm the teacher.


Great job in resizing, Terri!I hate math!:((

[Meriweather]

Thanks, Meri.

I know I resized them wayyyy down on photobucket....but when I copy and past the IMG info, they still come out big!

I think I had that problem with photobucket, too. Now I have the habit of creating the thumbnail first on my computer and then downloading the correctly sized one to photobucket. There is probably some neat little trick someone could tell us about.

Maybe we should assign "the lad" that task as a research project. ;)

[Meriweather]

Are you joking....or are they actually resized?


I'm so CONFUUUUUUUSED!

My mistake. I just checked the dimensions, not the kbs. Here's the first one for you. Second one will be up shortly.


http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/Lorraine-Elizabeth/tn_Rome-StPeters41.jpg

[byzantine catholic]

My mistake. I just checked the dimensions, not the kbs. Here's the first one for you. Second one will be up shortly.


http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/Lorraine-Elizabeth/tn_Rome-StPeters41.jpgCan you do mine for me please!:mrgreen::cool::clap:

[Meriweather]

And the second:

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/Lorraine-Elizabeth/tn_Rome-StPeters21.jpg

[terri910]

My mistake. I just checked the dimensions, not the kbs. Here's the first one for you. Second one will be up shortly.


http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/Lorraine-Elizabeth/tn_Rome-StPeters41.jpg
Okay....you've resized it....so is this what I need to do: save your image to my computer and then upload it to photobucket and then copy/paste the IMG?

[terri910]

Okay, I think it's done right, now...

byzantine, you're probably going to need to delete your post quoting mine when it had the over-sized images...

[Meriweather]

Okay....you've resized it....so is this what I need to do: save your image to my computer and then upload it to photobucket and then copy/paste the IMG?

It would be easier to just "Quote" my post to bring up the image information you need. Copy everything between the [ IMG ] and [ /IMG ], then repast it in your original post.

(After you have copied the image information in my post, just back arrow out of that screen to return to where you wish to be.)

[byzantine catholic]

Okay, I think it's done right, now...

byzantine, you're probably going to need to delete your post quoting mine when it had the over-sized images...I did.:razz:

[terri910]

It would be easier to just "Quote" my post to bring up the image information you need. Copy everything between the [ IMG ] and [ /IMG ], then repast it in your original post.

(After you have copied the image information in my post, just back arrow out of that screen to return to where you wish to be.)
It's okay....I did it the more convoluted way, but now it is in photobucket in a smaller size.

[Meriweather]

Can you do mine for me please!:mrgreen::cool::clap:

Byzantine, yours is a slightly different situation from Terri's. You posted about a dozen images in one post. What you need to do is to go back and post only two images per post, so that the total image size in each post only adds up to 300x300 and 32kb.

[Meriweather]

It's okay....I did it the more convoluted way, but now it is in photobucket in a smaller size.

That must have been an amazing trip. (The one to Rome, not the one to Photobucket.)

[vir doctus]

have you been to the Vatican?
have you ever seen the Pope up close and personal?

Yes.
Does the balcony count?

[vir doctus]

Lutherans also do not believe in Papal infallidity and in a lot of the Catholic saints.

Lutherans do believe in Papal invalidity. (Got to love typos.) What do Lutherans supposedly not believe about Catholic saints? :eh:

[vir doctus]

Since I am failing to see any "non-meshing" perhaps you can tell me how you think it doesn't mesh.

A reminder of the issue:

I don't think me forgiving wrongs against me imparts any special grace to the person who has requested forgiveness.

Is the only benefit in forgiving for one's self? Perhaps to feel less burdened or bitter?

[byzantine catholic]

Lutherans do believe in Papal invalidity. (Got to love typos.) What do Lutherans supposedly not believe about Catholic saints? :eh:The more recent Catholic saints. I admit though that behind the Episcopalians that the Lutherans are the second closest to Catholicism!:clap:

[vir doctus]

The more recent Catholic saints.

What about them?

[terri910]

A reminder of the issue:



Is the only benefit in forgiving for one's self? Perhaps to feel less burdened or bitter?
Of course it isn't the only benefit.....

...but as to reminding one of the issue, the issue was (as far as I was aware) the authority of the priests to act in Christ's stead to absolve, or remove the stain of, sin. That is what I said -- or tried to say -- I do not believe I can do by forgiving someone of a sin.

[terri910]

That must have been an amazing trip. (The one to Rome, not the one to Photobucket.)
We both agree it was the trip of a lifetime...and one we never dreamed of taking. We thought it just happened to be the right cruise, with the right cruiseline, at the right time, at the right price, going to places we thought would be interesting. It turned out to be so much more for us....

[buflineks]

Lutherans also do not believe in Papal infallidity and in a lot of the Catholic saints.

Luther considered the "Saints" "Adiaphora". If you like them, keep them, if not you don't have to.

Luther didn't see anything wrong with praying to Saints and asking them to pray for you. But he didn't see as how that had anything to do with Grace.

Therefore, he classified the practice as "Adiaphora".

[meggers49]

Yes. What direction are they going in, however?

south.

[terri910]

south.
..for the winter, at least! :mrgreen:

[meggers49]

oh, Meri, I believe all that too...that when I sin it is not only against man, but that my sin is also an offense against God.
I think, as terri, and I have been discussing, our beliefs on this matter are not so different except when it comes to the sacrament of Penance. I believe all those things you all have posted so well for me, it's just that for me, it's not "required". (again, maybe not the best word)

I posted this a bit too quickly, so let me add:
I do believe Jesus died for the sins of everyone.
I do believe that not everyone will accept His gift and for this reason, not all will be saved.
I do believe I must confess my sins to God. I do believe when I sin, it is an offense against God.
I do believe I must repent of my sin and I must try to turn away from my sin and sin no more.
But ... b/c I am human, I will again sin and I must again confess and repent.
I do not have to confess to my Pastor, but I can if I so desire.
I do not have to do penance, but I can if I so desire.


now what did I leave out?

the one thing you get from a priest is absolution. He is telling you that through Christ he absolves you (being in persona Christi). He is standing before you in Christ's stead to tell you that your sins are forgiven. Now someone might say, "Well, duh!", but one problem people have is not being able to let go of a sin. Through hearing this absolution after putting light on the sin, it 'adds legitimacy' to once belief that they are indeed forgiven.

[melinda]

I visited the Vatican in May of 2007. Hubby and I took a Mediterranean cruise that began and ended at the port nearest Rome, so we spent a few days in Rome before flying home. (The cruise also took us to Ephesus, among other places...absolutely amazing)

My favorite parts of visiting the Vatican were seeing Michelaneglo's Pieta in person...
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/tn_Rome-StPeters41.jpg

...and -- this was the absolute best -- taking the Scavi Tour -- the excavations under St. Peter's Basillica. Thanks to vir I knew to ask for tickets MONTHS in advance, as only 120 people are allowed on any day tours are conducted. Our guide was very knowledgeable. We were able to view what is believed to be (I believe it) the apostle Peter's original tomb. There was a wall with the name "Peter" in Greek letters, as well as fragments of words that said something like "is here" or "within." There was also a small tomb above it that was built by Constantine, as a more fitting tomb for St. Peter. On the other side of the wall was a small hole, where you could look inside. There were clear boxes (plastic or glass, I can't remember) containing bones found on the site -- the bones of St. Peter. This was directly under the altar of St. Peter's Basillica.
No photos allowed in the excavation area.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/terri910/tn_Rome-StPeters21.jpg

oh, terri, what an awesome experience.
I would love to take a Mediterranean cruise. My best friend just got back from one a short while ago, and she loved it. I've been to the Mediterranean, but never on a cruise.

I, too, have been to the Vatican, and I agree with you about the Pieta....so beautiful. so touching. so memorable. so heartwarming.
I did not take the Scavi Tour ... I bet that was a great experience as well.


I was asking about visiting the Vatican and meeting the Pope, b/c when I visited the Vatican, it had such a huge impact on me. As a Christian it truly touched my heart ... I could not even imagine what it must mean to a Catholic to visit if it meant that much to little ol' me.

[melinda]

I was 57 years old and my husband 60 before we were able to make the trip. We actually never imagined we would.

My advice is to do as we did: save up and make it happen for yourself. ;)

great advice ...
my best friend who just took a Mediterranean cruise is not rich or wealthy at all. But she lives below her means and saves up to take amazing vacations each year.

Find a way to make it happen ... Rome and Vatican City are something worth saving for.

[melinda]

Yes.
Does the balcony count?

of course. :)

[melinda]

Luther considered the "Saints" "Adiaphora". If you like them, keep them, if not you don't have to.

Luther didn't see anything wrong with praying to Saints and asking them to pray for you. But he didn't see as how that had anything to do with Grace.

Therefore, he classified the practice as "Adiaphora".

are you also a Lutheran or do you just have knowledge of Luther?

[byzantine catholic]

are you also a Lutheran or do you just have knowledge of Luther?I know he was antisemetic.

[melinda]

the one thing you get from a priest is absolution. He is telling you that through Christ he absolves you (being in persona Christi). He is standing before you in Christ's stead to tell you that your sins are forgiven. Now someone might say, "Well, duh!", but one problem people have is not being able to let go of a sin. Through hearing this absolution after putting light on the sin, it 'adds legitimacy' to once belief that they are indeed forgiven.

we start our church services in much the same way that was explained earlier on in this thread ... we confess our sins and our Pastor standing before us in Christ's stead tells us that our sins are forgiven. We just don't go to weekly, monthly, yearly confession.

I do understand of not being able to let go of a sin. :(
it's one thing to know God forgives me. it's another thing to learn to forgive myself....

[vir doctus]

I know he was antisemetic.

You still know nothing, despite people patiently instructing you.

[vir doctus]

Of course it isn't the only benefit.....



Is there a benefit to the one you forgive?

[byzantine catholic]

You still know nothing, despite people patiently instructing you.Read Luther's book "On the Jews And Their Lies"

[vir doctus]

Read Luther's book "On the Jews And Their Lies"

:rolleyes: Get a new schtick. - - - And an education. :rolleyes:

[byzantine catholic]

:rolleyes: Get a new schtick. - - - And an education. :rolleyes:Here is the site- http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

[buflineks]

are you also a Lutheran or do you just have knowledge of Luther?

I'm Roman Catholic.

I have spent some time studying Luther in various classes as well as individual study.

[buflineks]

I know he was antisemetic.

Not intitially. And the use of the word "anti-semitic", is probably not the best choice of words. "Anti-Semetism" now is probably better used when describing the Nazi's and those who wish for the violent killing of Jews.

First off, Luther was attracted to Hebrew studies, and in the beginning was openly FAVORABLE to the Jews. He thought that by "reason" he could convince them of the "pure teachings of Christ".

However, they rebuffed his arguements and remained dedicated to their faith.

It was at this point, in which Luther couldn't believe that they would reject the "logic" of his arguements that his "anti-jewish" writings came about.

Yes, they did advocate the "burning of synagogues" as well as the confiscation of all "Talmuds and Torahs". And it even advocating the deportation of them from "Christian Lands".

But this wasn't a unique position among religious leaders at this time. The Catholics were doing it. The Calvinists were doing it. They all continued to do it for centuries after.

Byz, to try and equate his "anti-jewish" writings as "proof" of what you percieve to be his "error", you have just set up your own faith to be just as doubtful.

In fact, shortly before his death, Luther admitted that his "anti-jewish" writtings were "wrong" and not very "Christ like". He attributed it to his own pride and was repentant about it. That is something that is overlooked in his life by most who disagree with him and try to "assassinate" his character.

Our faith finally came out, with the guidance of the late John Paul II, and publically admitted to centuries of "anti-semitism" and has apologized and asked for forgiveness from the Jewish community.

How can we, as Catholics, not allow Luther the same courtesy?

addum. This reminds me of Lincoln. When he first came to the presidency, he was just as a big a bigot as Jefferson Davis. In fact he advocated deporting all the African-Americans to places like Liberia. And remember, He only outlawed slavery in those states that were "in rebellion". The Emacipation Proclemation didn't outlaw slavery in the Union States. It wasn't until the 13th Amendment.
It is a perception of a person from an ideologue view point as to whether a person is a "bigot" or not.

[meggers49]

buf, having you around is truly a gift. thank you.

[vir doctus]

Not intitially. And the use of the word "anti-semitic", is probably not the best choice of words. "Anti-Semetism" now is probably better used when describing the Nazi's and those who wish for the violent killing of Jews.

First off, Luther was attracted to Hebrew studies, and in the beginning was openly FAVORABLE to the Jews. He thought that by "reason" he could convince them of the "pure teachings of Christ".

However, they rebuffed his arguements and remained dedicated to their faith.

It was at this point, in which Luther couldn't believe that they would reject the "logic" of his arguements that his "anti-jewish" writings came about.

Yes, they did advocate the "burning of synagogues" as well as the confiscation of all "Talmuds and Torahs". And it even advocating the deportation of them from "Christian Lands".

But this wasn't a unique position among religious leaders at this time. The Catholics were doing it. The Calvinists were doing it. They all continued to do it for centuries after.

Byz, to try and equate his "anti-jewish" writings as "proof" of what you percieve to be his "error", you have just set up your own faith to be just as doubtful.

In fact, shortly before his death, Luther admitted that his "anti-jewish" writtings were "wrong" and not very "Christ like". He attributed it to his own pride and was repentant about it. That is something that is overlooked in his life by most who disagree with him and try to "assassinate" his character.

Our faith finally came out, with the guidance of the late John Paul II, and publically admitted to centuries of "anti-semitism" and has apologized and asked for forgiveness from the Jewish community.

How can we, as Catholics, not allow Luther the same courtesy?



You, Noble Buf, are a credit to your faith and your [future] profession. :clap:

[vir doctus]

Not intitially. And the use of the word "anti-semitic", is probably not the best choice of words. "Anti-Semetism" now is probably better used when describing the Nazi's and those who wish for the violent killing of Jews.


Perhaps you will be more successful in explaining to the young one the difference between being against a race of people and being against the faith of a people.

[terri910]

Is there a benefit to the one you forgive?
I think so....but as I said, I do not believe my forgiveness removes the "stain" of sin.

But, yes, forgiveness has many benefits, to all parties involved -- and probably parties that aren't even all that involved, too!

By the way -- having been asked about visiting the Vatican, I want to thank you again for letting me know about the Scavi Tours. It was one of the highlights of our trip -- and definitely the highlight of Rome, for me.

Tell us more about your trip, especially if you saw the Pope; I'd love to hear about it.

Edited to add: photos would be great, too!

[vir doctus]

I think so....but as I said, I do not believe my forgiveness removes the "stain" of sin.



I believe the "stain" is removed by the blood of the Christ.

[Lie Sniper]

Not intitially. And the use of the word "anti-semitic", is probably not the best choice of words. "Anti-Semetism" now is probably better used when describing the Nazi's and those who wish for the violent killing of Jews.

First off, Luther was attracted to Hebrew studies, and in the beginning was openly FAVORABLE to the Jews. He thought that by "reason" he could convince them of the "pure teachings of Christ".

However, they rebuffed his arguements and remained dedicated to their faith.

It was at this point, in which Luther couldn't believe that they would reject the "logic" of his arguements that his "anti-jewish" writings came about.

Yes, they did advocate the "burning of synagogues" as well as the confiscation of all "Talmuds and Torahs". And it even advocating the deportation of them from "Christian Lands".

But this wasn't a unique position among religious leaders at this time. The Catholics were doing it. The Calvinists were doing it. They all continued to do it for centuries after.

Byz, to try and equate his "anti-jewish" writings as "proof" of what you percieve to be his "error", you have just set up your own faith to be just as doubtful.

In fact, shortly before his death, Luther admitted that his "anti-jewish" writtings were "wrong" and not very "Christ like". He attributed it to his own pride and was repentant about it. That is something that is overlooked in his life by most who disagree with him and try to "assassinate" his character.

Our faith finally came out, with the guidance of the late John Paul II, and publically admitted to centuries of "anti-semitism" and has apologized and asked for forgiveness from the Jewish community.

How can we, as Catholics, not allow Luther the same courtesy?

:clap: Thanks, Buf!
I was looking into this and had questioned my Lutheran Pastor and he said essentially the same thing.
I find your post to show you to be someone of great integrity to post this. How wonderful that you can be honest about the RCC's dark points in history, along with being a knowledgeable spokesperson for the true RCC.:clap:

[byzantine catholic]

Perhaps you will be more successful in explaining to the young one the difference between being against a race of people and being against the faith of a people.Of course I am dumb right!:rolleyes:

[terri910]

Of course I am dumb right!:rolleyes:
Still having things to learn is not the same as being dumb, byzantine.

But, then, you are smart enough to know that.

Don't be so defensive.

[Semi-Sweet]

You'll need to point out to me the part of LKB's post (which I've read a couple of times now) that indicates Catholics do not engage in group prayer....I just am not seeing it. :eh:

This is the part of LKB's post.

Confession is to be heard by an ordained priest, not a layperson. The reason is biblically based.

I wanted to know LKB's thoughts on the verses I quoted.

[terri910]

I believe the "stain" is removed by the blood of the Christ.
Yes, so do Catholics....this was explained earlier.

Obviously, I'm not doing a great job of it, however.

[vir doctus]

Tell us more about your trip, especially if you saw the Pope; I'd love to hear about it.

Edited to add: photos would be great, too!

JPII for Palm Sunday - very cool - plus free day at the museum!

I loved Rome - especially using the Newer Testament maps in my Bible to find my way around. I wish I had known more art history before I had gone (and I started my educational pursuits as an art history major). The memory that hangs on our wall, though, is a parking ticket. We were outside of Florence for the night, parked on the street outside the B&B. When we woke the next morning our car was gone! We hailed a police officer (no one spoke English), he took us to the jail, we found out that the car was towed because it was, supposedly, parked within 15 feet of an intersection. At the jail, we communicated in broken German to discover we had to pay $180 in cash to get the car back. We didn't have it. The police officer "accommodated" us to an ATM and after getting out the cash and returning to the jail we were given back our rental car.

Pisa was a waste of time, Venice was worth half a day, loved Siena.

[vir doctus]

Yes, so do Catholics....this was explained earlier.



How do you get new stains then?

[terri910]

This is the part of LKB's post.
There is nothing in that part you posted that should indicate to anyone that Catholics do not engage in group prayer. :confused:



I wanted to know LKB's thoughts on the verses I quoted.
Hopefully LKB will return and share them with you.

[byzantine catholic]

Still having things to learn is not the same as being dumb, byzantine.

But, then, you are smart enough to know that.

Don't be so defensive.I apologize but I am still waiting for vir doctus to admit that Luther was antisemetic and I admit that antisemitism started in the Catholic Church all the way back to Constantine so it is nothing new. All Christian Churches displayed antisemitism.

[RayMan]

I apologize but I am still waiting for vir doctus to admit that Luther is antisemetic and I admit that antisemitism started in the Catholic Church all the way back to Constantine so it is nothing new. All Christian Churches displayed antisemitism.

I really doubt that Luther IS antisemetic these days. :whistle:

[byzantine catholic]

I really doubt that Luther IS antisemetic these days. :whistle:Hi Ray and God bless ya and I hope you are feelin better.:clap:;)God bless ya too teri and vir doctus.:mrgreen:

[RayMan]

Hi Ray and God bless ya and I hope you are feelin better.:clap:;)God bless ya too teri and vir doctus.:mrgreen:

Thanks bc, I am hoping to get better over the next couple of days. Really don't want to go into hospital again.

[vir doctus]

I apologize but I am still waiting for vir doctus to admit that Luther was antisemetic...

That would be inaccurate - still.

[terri910]

How do you get new stains then?
New sins.

I believe the sacrament of baptism removes the "stain" of Original Sin and any actual sin committed before the baptism. Ultimately, it is Jesus' sacrifice that does it -- I believe baptism is the means He has given us to access it (that's the only word I could think of)

After that, I believe the sacrament of reconciliation removes the "stain" of actual sin committed. Ultimately, it is Jesus' sacrifice that does it -- I believe reconciliation is the means He has given us to access it.

[vir doctus]

New sins.

I believe the sacrament of baptism removes the "stain" of Original Sin and any actual sin committed before the baptism. Ultimately, it is Jesus' sacrifice that does it -- I believe baptism is the means He has given us to access it (that's the only word I could think of)

After that, I believe the sacrament of reconciliation removes the "stain" of actual sin committed. Ultimately, it is Jesus' sacrifice that does it -- I believe reconciliation is the means He has given us to access it.

Could you walk me through the Bible on that one? Because I read that Christ makes us free from sin.

[vir doctus]

Thank you, Fair Terri, for engaging my brain - I didn't think I could exercise tonight because I was in so much pain, but lo and behold, I have put in 25 miles thinking about your posts. :clap:

[byzantine catholic]

:clap: Thanks, Buf!
I was looking into this and had questioned my Lutheran Pastor and he said essentially the same thing.
I find your post to show you to be someone of great integrity to post this. How wonderful that you can be honest about the RCC's dark points in history, along with being a knowledgeable spokesperson for the true RCC.:clap:Of course I am not a true Catholic!:rolleyes:

[vir doctus]

Of course I am not a true Catholic!:rolleyes:

You do like looking for trouble, don't you?

[byzantine catholic]

You do like looking for trouble, don't you?Huh?

[terri910]

Could you walk me through the Bible on that one? Because I read that Christ makes us free from sin.
So, you do not sin?

I think that's wonderful. I, on the other hand, still manage to do that.

[vir doctus]

So, you do not sin?

I think that's wonderful. I, on the other hand, still manage to do that.

"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom. 6

[byzantine catholic]

"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom. 6Huh? When do I start trouble!:rolleyes:

[terri910]

Thank you, Fair Terri, for engaging my brain - I didn't think I could exercise tonight because I was in so much pain, but lo and behold, I have put in 25 miles thinking about your posts. :clap:
I'm glad your brain is engaged....I mentioned the other day that I feel a marked decrease in my ability to concisely -- or even accurately, for that matter -- express myself, lately. If the mind, like a gear, is engaged in order to make progress, I feel like my transmission is broken.

I worry that it isn't just the general chaos of life that is causing it, but some bit of growing older that I don't want happening...:frown:

[Semi-Sweet]

There is nothing in that part you posted that should indicate to anyone that Catholics do not engage in group prayer. :confused:




Hopefully LKB will return and share them with you.

Terri, I did not say that Catholics do not engage in 'group prayer.'

I did not mention 'group prayer.'

I quoted 'verses'.

LKB said . . . ."Priests only should hear confession."

[vir doctus]

I worry that it isn't just the general chaos of life that is causing it, but some bit of growing older that I don't want happening...:frown:

1. We all do that but don't pay attention to it until we are older.
2. Challenge your brain to solve problems everyday. (Logic puzzles, not emotion based people problems.)
3. Get a Kindle and spend more time reading!

[terri910]

"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom. 6
And yet I still manage to sin.

[terri910]

Terri, I did not say that Catholics do not engage in 'group prayer.'

I did not mention 'group prayer.'

I quoted 'verses'.

LKB said . . . ."Priests only should hear confession."
Yes....and then you asked about prayer. Here is your post:
If what you are saying is true what about this verse?

James 5:16. . ."Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."

What about these verses where Paul asked his brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for him?

Romans 15:30. . ."I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in earnest prayer to God on my behalf, that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my ministry to Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints."

I want my humble brothers and sisters praying for me.

Perhaps you were just changing the subject from confession to prayer, but if so, I think I wasn't the only one to misunderstand because Koushi said:
I'm pretty sure Catholics engage in group prayer at every church service.
to which you replied:
You need to tell LKB.
Why would anyone need to tell LKB when there was NOTHING in LKB's post that indicated Catholics --or LKB -- do not pray for one another or want "humble brothers and sisters praying for" them.

[Semi-Sweet]

Yes....and then you asked about prayer. Here is your post:


Perhaps you were just changing the subject from confession to prayer, but if so, I think I wasn't the only one to misunderstand because Koushi said:

to which you replied:

Why would anyone need to tell LKB when there was NOTHING in LKB's post that indicated Catholics --or LKB -- do not pray for one another or want "humble brothers and sisters praying for" them.

Think what you want.

[terri910]

Think what you want.
Well, if I've misunderstood, I'd rather know what you meant than think what I want.

[Mike Griffith]

I have great respect for the Catholic Church. I earned my Master's in Theology from a Catholic university.

Mormons and Catholics agree on a number of issues:

* We both agree that priesthood authority is important and that it must be obtained in the proper way through the proper channels.

* We both agree that baptism is essential for salvation.

* We both agree that the Bible as we now have it is not exactly the same Bible that the ancients used.

* We both agree that there is a spirit world and that we go there after we die.

* We both agree that Jesus was physically resurrected and that he lives today.

Many other points of agreement could be cited. Of course, we also have some differences, some of them major.

[vir doctus]

And yet I still manage to sin.

And Christ's sacrifice hasn't washed those away? You are blemished until you confess to a priest?

[Lie Sniper]

Of course I am not a true Catholic!:rolleyes:

I don't recall addressing you.....

Why are you defensive over a post that's only intended to compliment Buf on his integrity, honesty and knowledge?

[lawandorder]

the one thing you get from a priest is absolution. He is telling you that through Christ he absolves you (being in persona Christi). He is standing before you in Christ's stead to tell you that your sins are forgiven. Now someone might say, "Well, duh!", but one problem people have is not being able to let go of a sin. Through hearing this absolution after putting light on the sin, it 'adds legitimacy' to once belief that they are indeed forgiven.

Jesus said that a man cometh to the Father by Him, not by anyone else. Show me in scripture where confessions have to be made to a priest, other than the High Priest, Jesus. Jesus forgives with the authority of God.

[meggers49]

Jesus said that a man cometh to the Father by Him, not by anyone else. Show me in scripture where confessions have to be made to a priest, other than the High Priest, Jesus. Jesus forgives with the authority of God.

we have done that numerous times in this post and in others.

[Lie Sniper]

Of course I am not a true Catholic!:rolleyes:

Since this is an Ask a Catholic thread, why don't you highlight the things necessary, of a "True Catholic".

Then if you wish, as your above quote suggests, I'll try to make an accurate judgement based on your response. :mrgreen:

Or better yet, we can have all the Catholics decide if you are correct!

[vir doctus]

Since this is an Ask a Catholic thread, why don't you highlight the things necessary, of a "True Catholic".

Then if you wish, as your above quote suggests, I'll try to make an accurate judgement based on your response. :mrgreen:

Or better yet, we can have all the Catholics decide if you are correct!

Apparently, how you vote determines if you are true or not. :rolleyes:

[Lie Sniper]

Apparently, how you vote determines if you are true or not. :rolleyes:

;)

[melinda]

I have another question, and I am not trying to cause trouble with this one....I'm honestly curious.

If Catholics believe that they must confess their sins to the Priest and then make their Penance in order for their sins to be absolved ... do Catholics believe those of us that do not do so will not be in Heaven?

[vir doctus]

I have another question, and I am not trying to cause trouble with this one....I'm honestly curious.

If Catholics believe that they must confess their sins to the Priest and then make their Penance in order for their sins to be absolved ... do Catholics believe those of us that do not do so will not be in Heaven?

Bathing with the chickens at KFC. :silenced:


Vir Rapscallion.

[Meriweather]

I have another question, and I am not trying to cause trouble with this one....I'm honestly curious.

If Catholics believe that they must confess their sins to the Priest and then make their Penance in order for their sins to be absolved ... do Catholics believe those of us that do not do so will not be in Heaven?

No. We Catholics don't have time to worry about everything! ;)

Seriously, Catholics believe that is between you and God. Sacraments are here for our benefit to bring us closer to God; they are not meant for anyone to stumble over and prevent one from reaching God. Catholics are called to repent in the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation, and we derive great benefit from it. A Sacrament such as Penance would be ill-used, indeed, if we began using it as a club, rather than the outreach intended.

[melinda]

No. We Catholics don't have time to worry about everything! ;)

Seriously, Catholics believe that is between you and God. Sacraments are here for our benefit to bring us closer to God; they are not meant for anyone to stumble over and prevent one from reaching God. Catholics are called to repent in the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation, and we derive great benefit from it. A Sacrament such as Penance would be ill-used, indeed, if we began using it as a club, rather than the outreach intended.

thank you ... what a wonderful answer. :)

[Koushi Shinigami]

I know he was antisemetic.

:rolleyes: I believe that accusation was refuted quite effectively on this board.

[byzantine catholic]

Apparently, how you vote determines if you are true or not. :rolleyes::clap:

[terri910]

And Christ's sacrifice hasn't washed those away? You are blemished until you confess to a priest?
I don't believe there is anything in scripture that says our future sins are forgiven.

I believe I must repent for my sins in order to accept the gift of Christ's sacrifice. If I commit sin, in something I have done or have failed to do, have I not turned from God? It isn't that Christ's sacrifice has somehow disappeared, but that *I* have, even if temporarily. I believe I absolutely must repent and reconcile with Him. And, as I've already said, I believe that Jesus established the means by which I can do that, after baptism (Baptism being the first means), and that is the sacrament of reconciliation.

[terri910]

:clap:
So, you agree with vir that thinking how we vote determines a "true" Catholic is worthy of a rolling-eyes, smiley, right? Very good, byzantine!

[terri910]

I have another question, and I am not trying to cause trouble with this one....I'm honestly curious.

If Catholics believe that they must confess their sins to the Priest and then make their Penance in order for their sins to be absolved ... do Catholics believe those of us that do not do so will not be in Heaven?
I was going to answer....but my answer was going to be pretty simple, such as, "No." *LOL*...Meriweather's answer is much better (it usually is).

[meggers49]

I have another question, and I am not trying to cause trouble with this one....I'm honestly curious.

If Catholics believe that they must confess their sins to the Priest and then make their Penance in order for their sins to be absolved ... do Catholics believe those of us that do not do so will not be in Heaven?

no.

these things are just ways that make the road to heaven easier.

ETA: they are things that nourish the soul and give comfort and strength to fend off the 'slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' that assail us daily.

[vir doctus]

I don't believe there is anything in scripture that says our future sins are forgiven.


This I do not understand. Christ died for your sins two thousand years ago, but it was only good until your baptism? :think:

[terri910]

This I do not understand. Christ died for your sins two thousand years ago, but it was only good until your baptism? :think:
No. Obviously, I am not explaining this well at all.

The sacrifice is good for every sin which I acknowledge and for which I repent. I do not believe I could repent 49 years ago for sins I had not yet committed (at 10 years old I didn't have a clue how many ways one could find to sin).

If I believed that Christ's sacrifice was only "good until my baptism" (I'm sorry, but the idea that you would interpret my words in such a way makes me want to insert a rolling eyes smiley -- or worse! *LOL*) there would be no reason for me go to confession, now, would there? And since we are discussing the sacrament of reconciliation and my belief in it, then it seems silly for you to even ask if I believe such a thing.

Please, vir....do not mistake my explanations as any sort of limit on the power of Christ's work on the cross. The "limitation" is mine alone, in my ability to be faithfully and constantly obedient to God.

[Koushi Shinigami]

This I do not understand. Christ died for your sins two thousand years ago, but it was only good until your baptism? :think:

When you sin, do you have to appologize to God and ask his forgivness?

[Meriweather]

This I do not understand. Christ died for your sins two thousand years ago, but it was only good until your baptism? :think:

Step back for a moment and think of free will--of freedom and responsibility.

Free will allows me to choose between good and evil. I can choose virtue over sin and grow in freedom. Or, I can choose sin--an abuse of freedom--and become a slave of sin.

When I choose to sin, then my next decision, is whether to continue in my sin, or to repent and do penance (considered a virture). Repenting and penance puts me back on the narrow path towards the perfect freedom of being free from sinful choices.

[vir doctus]

If I believed that Christ's sacrifice was only "good until my baptism" (I'm sorry, but the idea that you would interpret my words in such a way makes me want to insert a rolling eyes smiley -- or worse! *LOL*) there would be no reason for me go to confession, now, would there? And since we are discussing the sacrament of reconciliation and my belief in it, then it seems silly for you to even ask if I believe such a thing.



I am confused. That would be exactly why you would go to confession - because Christ's sacrifice only cleaned up your 'original' sin and you are responsible for getting the new "stains" cleared up by a priest.

[vir doctus]

Step back for a moment and think of free will--of freedom and responsibility.

Free will allows me to choose between good and evil. I can choose virtue over sin and grow in freedom. Or, I can choose sin--an abuse of freedom--and become a slave of sin.

When I choose to sin, then my next decision, is whether to continue in my sin, or to repent and do penance (considered a virture). Repenting and penance puts me back on the narrow path towards the perfect freedom of being free from sinful choices.

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." - Romans 8

[Meriweather]

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." - Romans 8

Sin is an offense against God, a thing that separates one from God.

[vir doctus]

Sin is an offense against God, a thing that separates one from God.

I didn't write it... But I am happy to be in Christ.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I am confused. That would be exactly why you would go to confession - because Christ's sacrifice only cleaned up your 'original' sin and you are responsible for getting the new "stains" cleared up by a priest.

The way a Catholic explained it to me is that Christ's sacrifice opened the way to heaven. It did not pre-forgive sins not yet commited. It provided a way for those sins to be forgiven. There is still something left to do for those sins to be forgiven, and that is for the sinner to repent and ask God for forgiveness.

If Christ had done everything, then Christians could go about their merrry sinning way and not need to feel guilt, repentance or ask forgiveness for anything.

Do you believe that a sinner must ask God for forgiveness to be forgiven?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I didn't write it...

I think you're misusing it.

[vir doctus]

The way a Catholic explained it to me is that Christ's sacrifice opened the way to heaven. It did not pre-forgive sins not yet commited. It provided a way for those sins to be forgiven. There is still something left to do for those sins to be forgiven, and that is for the sinner to repent and ask God for forgiveness.


That is what I asked Fair Terri and she responded as if I were being coy. :confused:

[vir doctus]

I think you're misusing it.

It was a simple posting of Scripture. Perhaps you are guilty of guessing how I "use it".

[terri910]

I am confused.
Yes, vir, I would say you are very confused. And I'm sorry that is the case, because I'm making it as clear as I know how.
That would be exactly why you would go to confession - because Christ's sacrifice only cleaned up your 'original' sin and you are responsible for getting the new "stains" cleared up by a priest.
No. vir, I never said that. I made it clear at the outset, I think, that all pardon for my sins come from Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, and that I believe the sacraments of baptism and reconciliation are the means by which I receive that pardon that comes from God alone.

[terri910]

That is what I asked Fair Terri and she responded as if I were being coy. :confused:
:naughty:
vir...perhaps you are guilty of guessing what I thought.

[vir doctus]

:naughty:
vir...perhaps you are guilty of guessing what I thought.

"(I'm sorry, but the idea that you would interpret my words in such a way makes me want to insert a rolling eyes smiley -- or worse! *LOL*) there would be no reason for me go to confession, now, would there? And since we are discussing the sacrament of reconciliation and my belief in it, then it seems silly for you to even ask if I believe such a thing."

Enlighten me.

[vir doctus]

Yes, vir, I would say you are very confused. And I'm sorry that is the case, because I'm making it as clear as I know how.

No. vir, I never said that. I made it clear at the outset, I think, that all pardon for my sins come from Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, and that I believe the sacraments of baptism and reconciliation are the means by which I receive that pardon that comes from God alone.

It may seem clear to you but it isn't clear how Christ is sufficient but you still need the stains removed by an official representative.

Or maybe I don't understand Catholic-speak.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That is what I asked Fair Terri and she responded as if I were being coy. :confused:

Read the post you quoted again. I added more to it.

[terri910]

Enlighten me.
To what? None of that indicates I thought you were being "coy."

I felt like inserting a rolling eye smiley because it was -- and is -- difficult for me to believe that my words could have been interpreted in such a way. It (the smiley) would indicate frustration, impatience, even. The "worse" would have been an angry smiley -- because I felt as though the meaning of my words had been twisted (but...I did not because I know you better than to think you would do that on purpose).

And since it appeared to me that thinking Christ's work on the cross was "only good up to my baptism" would make the idea of confession completely out of the question (since I'd already made clear that confession was a means to Christ's work on the cross (just like baptism), NOT a substitute for it), that idea didn't make logical sense to me -- thus, silly.

Not coquettish, not affectedly shy, not insincere....IOW, not "coy."

If I thought you were being coy, and not sincerely having a difficult time understanding my position, why would I say as often as I have, that I am obviously not explaining my position well?

Either all here are allowed to assume such things as motivation and meaning of posts, or no one is, including you, vir.

Now. Can we get beyond this?

[terri910]

It may seem clear to you but it isn't clear how Christ is sufficient but you still need the stains removed by an official representative.

Or maybe I don't understand Catholic-speak.
I think that may be part of the problem (no Catholic-speak)...but I suspect the greater problem is I am not exactly giving you a great explanation IN Catholic-speak.

I did say before that Christ is sufficient every time I acknowledge and repent of my sins.

You have been asked several times if you sin, or if you believe you need to ask forgiveness for your sins. You have not answered (that I remember)....is it because you don't think it's relevant? (I'm trying to figure out where the breakdown in communication is, because it seems very relevant to me)

[vir doctus]

Either all here are allowed to assume such things as motivation and meaning of posts, or no one is, including you, vir.



I never knew rolley eyes indicated frustration - learn something new every day. You don't have to be frustrated with this conversation.

I assume people will assume, but sometimes those assumptions will lead a person in the wrong direction.

[terri910]

I never knew rolley eyes indicated frustration - learn something new every day. You don't have to be frustrated with this conversation.
I think rolling eyes smilies have to cover a lot of ground. And I may not HAVE to be frustrated, but I do find it frustrating to keep trying to make myself clear, and continually getting feedback that is so contrary to what I'm trying to say.

I assume people will assume, but sometimes those assumptions will lead a person in the wrong direction.
Yes, I know. Like thinking someone thinks you're being coy. ;)

[vir doctus]

I did say before that Christ is sufficient every time I acknowledge and repent of my sins.

But Christ is not sufficient until you acknowledge?

You have been asked several times if you sin, or if you believe you need to ask forgiveness for your sins. You have not answered (that I remember)....is it because you don't think it's relevant? (I'm trying to figure out where the breakdown in communication is, because it seems very relevant to me)

This is not the "Ask a one winged Viking Believer with a Lutheran habit" thread. I am trying to learn about Catholicism, my views are not relevant.

[vir doctus]

Yes, I know. Like thinking someone thinks you're being coy. ;)

I could assume you think worse things of me...

[Gem]

The penticostals.
When we get filled with Gods spirit ( Holy Ghost ) we no that we are forgiven for our sins and have God in our lives without a doubt.

We believe in keeping our prayer life up every day.
People do sin in ways that they dont even no they sined.
So , what we do is pray every morning before our day begins and pray again at night before we go to bed asking for forgivness fo any sin we may have committed unknowinly.

Yes Jesus did die on the cross for all our sins, that is true.
But there are sins that people unknowingly do.
That is why we always pray of the morning and at night.

Also, if you dont keep your prayer life up , in time you could go back on God before you even relize it.

[terri910]

But Christ is not sufficient until you acknowledge?Christ is sufficient, but I do not believe He forces me to accept Him or His gift. I believe I could decide to turn to sin, and turn away from God. (I do not anticipate doing so, but there might have been a time when I would not have believed I'd have posted a :naughty: smiley to vir, so I guess anything is possible)

This is not the "Ask a one winged Viking Believer with a Lutheran habit" thread. I am trying to learn about Catholicism, my views are not relevant.
I thought you might say that, because it occurred to me, too. But, as I said, I think it is relevant, and would be helpful in trying to figure out where we're losing one another in our communicating.

[terri910]

I could assume you think worse things of me...
Yes, but as you said, sometimes assumptions lead people in the wrong direction.....

[terri910]

We believe in keeping our prayer life up every day.
People do sin in ways that they dont even no they sined.
So , what we do is pray every morning before our day begins and pray again at night before we go to bed asking for forgivness fo any sin we may have committed unknowinly.

Yes Jesus did die on the cross for all our sins, that is true.
But there are sins that people unknowingly do.
That is why we always pray of the morning and at night.

Also, if you dont keep your prayer life up , in time you could go back on God before you even relize it.
It isn't so very different with Catholics, Gem. Would you say your prayers asking for forgivness are the means by which you believe you obtain God's forgiveness and reconcile yourself to Him? Your prayers aren't forgiving your sins, right? That's pretty much what I believe about the sacrament of confession, that it is a means that God put in place for us to reconcile with him.

[Gem]

It isn't so very different with Catholics, Gem. Your prayers asking for forgivness are the means by which you believe you obtain God's forgiveness and reconcile yourself to Him. Your prayers aren't forgiving your sins, right? That's pretty much what I believe about the sacrament of confession, that it is a mean that God put in place for us to reconcile with him.


Its up to God if He forgives us our sins or not. all we can do is ask Him and believeing that He does.
There is just something about prayer that you can no that God has forgiven us.

Yes Terri it is a lot like Catholics. Just doing it a differant way, is all. :razz:

[vir doctus]

Christ is sufficient, but I do not believe He forces me to accept Him or His gift. I believe I could decide to turn to sin, and turn away from God.

I understand this.

I thought you might say that, because it occurred to me, too. But, as I said, I think it is relevant, and would be helpful in trying to figure out where we're losing one another in our communicating.

My Saviour conquered sin and death and I cannot nullify His sacrifice.

[terri910]

I understand this.



My Saviour conquered sin and death and I cannot nullify His sacrifice.
Now I am the one who is confused! What do you mean when you say "nullify His sacrifice"?

I wonder if ultimately, at least with this part, if we are talking about "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

You see, I would not describe rejecting God as "nullifying His sacrifice" but....well....rejecting it. Nullifying, to me, would mean making Jesus' sacrifice ineffective...sort of impotent. And if one rejects God I don't believe it renders Him or His sacrifice ineffective or impotent. It just means one is rejecting something VERY effective and potent.

[Gem]

Good night all. have a good night to.
Hubby is gone to bed all ready, he wont go to sleep till I get up stares.

[Hadassah]

I understand this.



My Saviour conquered sin and death and I cannot nullify His sacrifice.

Nullify His sacrifice? I'm so confused now........

[vir doctus]

Now I am the one who is confused!


:naughty: "Ask a Catholic".

[terri910]

:naughty: "Ask a Catholic".
Hey...the title isn't "You'll Always Get An Answer"....:mrgreen:

[terri910]

Good night all. have a good night to.
Hubby is gone to bed all ready, he wont go to sleep till I get up stares.
good night!

[terri910]

Nullify His sacrifice? I'm so confused now........
Well....at least it isn't just me. (although it wouldn't be the first time!)

[vir doctus]

Hey...the title isn't "You'll Always Get An Answer"....:mrgreen:

The world could ignore me and I would still ask questions - - then I would answer as best I could.

[vir doctus]

Well....at least it isn't just me. (although it wouldn't be the first time!)

If Christ conquered sin with His sacrifice, how does one continue to be a slave to it?

[terri910]

The world could ignore me and I would still ask questions - - then I would answer as best I could.
...and I love that about you, vir! :hug:

It is time for me to log off.....even though I have tomorrow off and do not have to wake up early, I'm still sleepy....

Good night, all!

[Meriweather]

If Christ conquered sin with His sacrifice, how does one continue to be a slave to it?

Let's take a look at Luke 24:46-47.

And [Jesus] said to them, "Thus it is writtten that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations..."

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was a redeeming act of obedience that opened the gates of the Kingdom to all of mankind. Other scripture verses remind us that the way is narrow, few are chosen, and that Jesus does not know everyone who merely calls his name.

One continues to be a slave to sin by giving into it as opposed to turning away (repenting) from it. In John 20:21, Jesus tells his apostles, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Catholics believe sins are forgiven--but we do not believe that sins are automatically forgiven the moment we commit them--or even before we commit them. We believe in repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

[vir doctus]

One continues to be a slave to sin by giving into it as opposed to turning away (repenting) from it. In John 20:21, Jesus tells his apostles, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Catholics believe sins are forgiven--but we do not believe that sins are automatically forgiven the moment we commit them--or even before we commit them. We believe in repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 8

[terri910]

Romans 8
Which could be summarized thus:
There is no condemnation to them that, being justified by Christ, walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. Their strong hope and love of God.
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom008.htm

There is nothing in Romans 8 -- or any other Sacred Scripture, for that matter -- that contradicts the necessity of confession. From our understanding of sacred scripture, anyway.

[archangelo]

Before Jesus, sin -- like death -- was a permanent part of us, like a terminal disease or a malignant tumor with no hope of a cure. Jesus freed us from the permanence of that death grip, so that it would be possible to be freed from sin and death. What could not be granted, is now ours for the asking. What was ever lost to us may now be found. The door that was locked may now be opened with a knock. All have been freed. Each must decide to leave the cell.

[vir doctus]

Before Jesus, sin -- like death -- was a permanent part of us, like a terminal disease or a malignant tumor with no hope of a cure. Jesus freed us from the permanence of that death grip, so that it would be possible to be freed from sin and death. What could not be granted, is now ours for the asking. What was ever lost to us may now be found. The door that was locked may now be opened with a knock. All have been freed. Each must decide to leave the cell.

This is most certainly true.