What is a true prophet of God?

[chrisc]

I am interested in hearing your various opinions on the following questions:

1. Do you believe Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Peter were all true prophets of God?

2. What are the specific differences between a true prophet and a false prophet? (Please expound beyond just saying, "They teach from the Bible" since none of the above prophets had the Bible.)

3. How many true churches existed under the direction of each of these prophets? (when I say church, I don't mean a building, I mean an orgainization under one common belief system)

4. Do all true prophets teach the same gospel truths? In other words, was Moses' gospel the same as Adams? Was Abraham's gospel the same as Noah's, etc?

5. Although policies may change, Christ's church should have the same doctrines and ordinances throughout all history. What was Isaiah referring to when he condemned those who change God's ordinances by saying, "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5a) the laws, changed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5b) the ordinance (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5c), broken (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5d) the everlasting (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5e) covenant (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5f)." (Isaiah 24:5) What ordinances have been changed?

6. Christians believe in the Bible and therefore believe that the Jews were once the Lord's covenant people and had the true gospel. The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). Now Christians have taken this record of Judah and made it their own. When and how did the Jews lose the true gospel? When and how did the Christians restore the true gospel?

[RayMan]

6. Christians believe in the Bible and therefore believe that the Jews were once the Lord's covenant people and had the true gospel. The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). Now Christians have taken this record of Judah and made it their own. When and how did the Jews lose the true gospel? When and how did the Christians restore the true gospel?

Paul was Jewish. His traveling companion Luke who wrote the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts apparently was not Jewish.

[CMike11]

Basically G-D tells the prophets stuff and the prophets told the jewish people.

According to Judaism, jesus nor his followers were prophets.

Here is how to tell false prophets

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/9977/jewish/Chapter-13.htm

Deut 13

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.
7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."
8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;
9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.
10. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
11. And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
12. And all Israel shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer do any evil such as this in your midst.
13. If you hear in one of your cities which the Lord, your God, is giving you to dwell therein, saying,
14. "Unfaithful men have gone forth from among you and have led the inhabitants of their city astray, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods, which you have not known.' "
15. Then you shall inquire, investigate, and ask thoroughly, and, behold, it is true, the matter is certain, that such abomination has been committed in your midst:
16. You shall surely strike down the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroy it with all that is in it and its livestock, with the edge of the sword.
17. And you shall collect all its spoil into the midst of its open square, and burn with fire the city and all its spoil, completely, for the Lord, your God; and it shall be a heap of destruction forever, never to be rebuilt.
18. And nothing that is doomed to destruction shall cling to your hand, so that the Lord may return from His fierce wrath, and grant you compassion, and be compassionate with you, and multiply you, as He swore to your forefathers.
19. For you shall hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you this day, to do that which is proper in the eyes of the Lord, your God.

[chrisc]

Paul was Jewish. His traveling companion Luke who wrote the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts apparently was not Jewish.
You are correct, Paul was of Jewish decent. Although he and his parents were Roman citizens.

[chrisc]

Basically G-D tells the prophets stuff and the prophets told the jewish people.

According to Judaism, jesus nor his followers were prophets.

Here is how to tell false prophets

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/9977/jewish/Chapter-13.htm

Deut 13

2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.
7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."
8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;
9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.
10. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
11. And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
12. And all Israel shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer do any evil such as this in your midst.
13. If you hear in one of your cities which the Lord, your God, is giving you to dwell therein, saying,
14. "Unfaithful men have gone forth from among you and have led the inhabitants of their city astray, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods, which you have not known.' "
15. Then you shall inquire, investigate, and ask thoroughly, and, behold, it is true, the matter is certain, that such abomination has been committed in your midst:
16. You shall surely strike down the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroy it with all that is in it and its livestock, with the edge of the sword.
17. And you shall collect all its spoil into the midst of its open square, and burn with fire the city and all its spoil, completely, for the Lord, your God; and it shall be a heap of destruction forever, never to be rebuilt.
18. And nothing that is doomed to destruction shall cling to your hand, so that the Lord may return from His fierce wrath, and grant you compassion, and be compassionate with you, and multiply you, as He swore to your forefathers.
19. For you shall hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you this day, to do that which is proper in the eyes of the Lord, your God.
So you are saying God tells the prophets through revelation. We learn that a prophet is true through revelation. Revelation is the key. It appears that the Jews lost this at some point. And then after Christ restored the truth it appears that the Christians lost this at some point also.

Christ explained this in a parable in Mark 12:1-9:

1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the avineyard (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mark/mark/12/9a) unto others.

The Lord of the vineyard is God the Father. The servants are His prophets he sent. The husbandmen are the priests and teachers of Israel including ecclesiastical leaders. The only wellbeloved son is Jesus Christ. This authority of the church was taken and given unto others.

[RayMan]

You are correct, Paul was of Jewish decent. Although he and his parents were Roman citizens.

Yep. That stood him in good stead in the situations mentioned in Acts 16 and 22.

Act 16:37 But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.
Act 16:38 And the serjeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans.

Act 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
Act 22:26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

[shearwater]

According to Hebrews, Jesus was a "priest" after the order of Malchizedec. Malchizedec was a prophet, a priest and a king. A true prophet is one whose proclamations come true exactly as prophesied. His words don't fall to the ground.

[Ron Jon]

According to Hebrews, Jesus was a "priest" after the order of Malchizedec. Malchizedec was a prophet, a priest and a king. A true prophet is one whose proclamations come true exactly as prophesied. His words don't fall to the ground.
According to Heb 7:24 Jesus has the Melchizedek priesthood permanently and it is "permanent, unchangeable, aparabatos". In other words, Jesus is the ONLY High Priest after the order of Melchizedek and therefore there is no need for another to succeed Him because He is ALIVE Forevermore! “The LORD has sworn
And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek’”),
by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

[Jacob_Rising]

I am interested in hearing your various opinions on the following questions:

1. Do you believe Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Peter were all true prophets of God?

2. What are the specific differences between a true prophet and a false prophet? (Please expound beyond just saying, "They teach from the Bible" since none of the above prophets had the Bible.)

3. How many true churches existed under the direction of each of these prophets? (when I say church, I don't mean a building, I mean an orgainization under one common belief system)

4. Do all true prophets teach the same gospel truths? In other words, was Moses' gospel the same as Adams? Was Abraham's gospel the same as Noah's, etc?

5. Although policies may change, Christ's church should have the same doctrines and ordinances throughout all history. What was Isaiah referring to when he condemned those who change God's ordinances by saying, "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5a) the laws, changed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5b) the ordinance (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5c), broken (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5d) the everlasting (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5e) covenant (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5f)." (Isaiah 24:5) What ordinances have been changed?

6. Christians believe in the Bible and therefore believe that the Jews were once the Lord's covenant people and had the true gospel. The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). Now Christians have taken this record of Judah and made it their own. When and how did the Jews lose the true gospel? When and how did the Christians restore the true gospel?I don't believe there are any Prophets outside the Bible.

I've been prophecied to many, many times and it was always good but I don't believe them.

I personally know at least 10 people who consider themselves Prophets but I don't believe it.

I believe what Zechariah says about it, '' And they will all be ashamed of their prophecies''

[Constantine the Great]

And then after Christ restored the truth it appears that the Christians lost this at some point also.

Christ explained this in a parable in Mark 12:1-9:

1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the avineyard (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mark/mark/12/9a) unto others.

The Lord of the vineyard is God the Father. The servants are His prophets he sent. The husbandmen are the priests and teachers of Israel including ecclesiastical leaders. The only wellbeloved son is Jesus Christ. This authority of the church was taken and given unto others.


Highly speculative and strictly your own interpretation without any supportive evidence.

[Ron Jon]

Christ explained this in a parable in Mark 12:1-9:

1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the avineyard (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mark/mark/12/9a) unto others.

The Lord of the vineyard is God the Father. The servants are His prophets he sent. The husbandmen are the priests and teachers of Israel including ecclesiastical leaders. The only wellbeloved son is Jesus Christ. This authority of the church was taken and given unto others.Compare to Isaiah 5

1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

[smyrna]

I am interested in hearing your various opinions on the following questions:

1. Do you believe Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Peter were all true prophets of God?

2. What are the specific differences between a true prophet and a false prophet? (Please expound beyond just saying, "They teach from the Bible" since none of the above prophets had the Bible.)

3. How many true churches existed under the direction of each of these prophets? (when I say church, I don't mean a building, I mean an orgainization under one common belief system)

4. Do all true prophets teach the same gospel truths? In other words, was Moses' gospel the same as Adams? Was Abraham's gospel the same as Noah's, etc?

5. Although policies may change, Christ's church should have the same doctrines and ordinances throughout all history. What was Isaiah referring to when he condemned those who change God's ordinances by saying, "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5a) the laws, changed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5b) the ordinance (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5c), broken (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5d) the everlasting (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5e) covenant (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5f)." (Isaiah 24:5) What ordinances have been changed?

6. Christians believe in the Bible and therefore believe that the Jews were once the Lord's covenant people and had the true gospel. The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). Now Christians have taken this record of Judah and made it their own. When and how did the Jews lose the true gospel? When and how did the Christians restore the true gospel?

This is the take from an average guy.

1. No, Peter was an apostle. The rest were prophets.
2. A true prophet's prohecies are proven correct and withstand the test of time.
3. None. The church began with the formation of Christianity.
4. There was no gospel in the OT. There was only the Laws of Moses. That stayed the same. The prophets were not necessarily teachers as much as they were speakers of the Lord's thoughts on the different issues of the day. Those prophecies that bared true declared true prophets from false prophets.
5. The Laws of Moses stated clearly what God declared as sin. By the time of Isaiah, Israel had broken up into two kingdoms; the northern and southern. The northern kingdom was conquered before the southern kingdom of Judah. Isaiah prophesied that Judah also would be destroyed for their wickedness because they had broken the Law and would not repent.
6. The OT is the historical record of the earths creation and how and why Judiasm and Christ came into the world. The NT is from the time of Christ's birth until not quite a 100 years after his death. Jews do not recognize the New Testament. The old testament and new testament make up the Christian Bible. The Jews have the Torah. Jews and Christians agree with about everything until 3 days after Christ's death.

[Ron Jon]

I believe The Lord of the vineyard is God the Father. The servants are His prophets He sent. The husbandmen [vineyard workers] are the corrupt priests and teachers of Israel. The only well beloved son is Jesus Christ. V 9 clearly says:

“Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-dressers, and give the vineyard to others."

Who are the "others" if not the Gentiles? Specifically, those who would follow Christ and who would be called "Christian" first in Antioch.

[CMike11]

This is the take from an average guy.

1. No, Peter was an apostle. The rest were prophets.
2. A true prophet's prohecies are proven correct and withstand the test of time.
3. None. The church began with the formation of Christianity.
4. There was no gospel in the OT. There was only the Laws of Moses. That stayed the same. The prophets were not necessarily teachers as much as they were speakers of the Lord's thoughts on the different issues of the day. Those prophecies that bared true declared true prophets from false prophets.
5. The Laws of Moses stated clearly what God declared as sin. By the time of Isaiah, Israel had broken up into two kingdoms; the northern and southern. The northern kingdom was conquered before the southern kingdom of Judah. Isaiah prophesied that Judah also would be destroyed for their wickedness because they had broken the Law and would not repent.
6. The OT is the historical record of the earths creation and how and why Judiasm and Christ came into the world. The NT is from the time of Christ's birth until not quite a 100 years after his death. Jews do not recognize the New Testament. The old testament and new testament make up the Christian Bible. The Jews have the Torah. Jews and Christians agree with about everything until 3 days after Christ's death.

There were no laws of Moses. Moses made no laws. G-D made laws. Moses was a man, not G-D. Only G-D made commandments for the jewish people.

[Ron Jon]

There were no laws of Moses. Moses made no laws. G-D made laws. Moses was a man, not G-D. Only G-D made commandments for the jewish people.Why so upset? It is a common expression. "Torat Moshe תּוֹרַת־מֹשֶׁה), Mosaic Law"

[Jacob_Rising]

The northern kingdom was conquered before the southern kingdom of Judah. Isaiah prophesied that Judah also would be destroyed for their wickedness because they had broken the Law and would not repent.

The destruction of the Northern kingdom can't be compared to the Southern Kingdom.

The Southerners still exist while the Northerners don't.

[CMike11]

Why so upset? It is a common expression. "Torat Moshe תּוֹרַת־מֹשֶׁה), Mosaic Law"

Because the fundamental principle of Judaism is that only G-D makes commandments. Moses didn't have the power to make commandments.

Judaism and jewish law comes from G-D, not from Moses.

Moses was a mortal man. G-D is the divine power.

Therefore there is not such thing as the "laws of Moses". They are the Laws of G-D, or ten commandments, or the torah.

[Reeder]

Because the fundamental principle of Judaism is that only G-D makes commandments. Moses didn't have the power to make commandments.

Judaism and jewish law comes from G-D, not from Moses.

Moses was a mortal man. G-D is the divine power.

Therefore there is not such thing as the "laws of Moses". They are the Laws of G-D, or ten commandments, or the torah.


I don't believe that Moses made the laws (obviously I believe they came from God), but I still refer to them as the Laws of Moses.

I think you're straining at gnats.

[CMike11]

I don't believe that Moses made the laws (obviously I believe they came from God), but I still refer to them as the Laws of Moses.

I think you're straining at gnats.

There were not the Laws of Moses. Moses didn't make laws. G-D made laws.

[Reeder]

There were not the Laws of Moses. Moses didn't make laws. G-D made laws.

:think:

Is there an echo in here?

[Gidon]

6. Christians believe in the Bible and therefore believe that the Jews were once the Lord's covenant people and had the true gospel. The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). Now Christians have taken this record of Judah and made it their own. When and how did the Jews lose the true gospel? When and how did the Christians restore the true gospel?

ALERT ALERT

Replacement theology ALERT

The Covenant between God and the Jewish people is alive and well. Always has been and always will be.

Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

That is the Boss talking here. When He says something He means it.

What fool has the temerity to attempt to supersede the Word of the Almighty?

[Gidon]

restored true gospel?
someone please define that for me

"Gospel" as I understand it is an old English word for The Greek "Evangelium". "Evangelium means "good news".

how can good news be dismantled or lost?

[chrisc]

I don't believe there are any Prophets outside the Bible.

I've been prophecied to many, many times and it was always good but I don't believe them.

I personally know at least 10 people who consider themselves Prophets but I don't believe it.

I believe what Zechariah says about it, '' And they will all be ashamed of their prophecies''
So you believe all revelation from God ended with the Bible?

You know, throughout the history of time, it has always been easier for people to believe in dead rather than living prophets.

[chrisc]

Highly speculative and strictly your own interpretation without any supportive evidence.
Hence the critical need for a true prophet! The Bible alone is not enough! Thanks for proving my point.

[Jacob_Rising]

So you believe all revelation from God ended with the Bible?

You know, throughout the history of time, it has always been easier for people to believe in dead rather than living prophets.

Living, dead don't matter.

The simple facts are, there are no writings of Prophets outside the bible.

There could have been a couple prophets after the New Testament, I don't know, either way, I don't have their writings.

Just like there could have been people that went around healing as did Jesus and the desciples.

But the simple facts are, There are no healers right now.

If you say there is, then I need a healing.

If you say there are prophets, where are his writings?

[chrisc]

Compare to Isaiah 5

1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
Perhaps Christ was partly alluding to Isaiah's reference. In the Book of Mormon there is a very detailed and complex allegory of the tame and wild olive trees that also has similarities. This was written by a prophet named Zenos. Zenos was a prophet in Israel. Some speculate that he probably lived around the time of Isaiah and could have been part of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. Of course there is no mention of him in the Bible, however, the prophets in the Book of Mormon had brought with them the "plates of brass" from Jerusalem which contained a record of the five books of Moses down to King Zedekiah. (There are many "lost" books from the Bible.) This is why Isaiah is quoted so frequently in the Book of Mormon. Zenos's allegory is long, but here it is:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/5

[Gidon]

Perhaps Christ was partly alluding to Isaiah's reference. In the Book of Mormon there is a very detailed and complex allegory of the tame and wild olive trees that also has similarities. This was written by a prophet named Zenos. Zenos was a prophet in Israel. Some speculate that he probably lived around the time of Isaiah and could have been part of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. Of course there is no mention of him in the Bible, however, the prophets in the Book of Mormon had brought with them the "plates of brass" from Jerusalem which contained a record of the five books of Moses down to King Zedekiah. (There are many "lost" books from the Bible.) This is why Isaiah is quoted so frequently in the Book of Mormon. Zenos's allegory is long, but here it is:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/5

Zenos doesn't sound like a Hebrew name to me. Sounds like a place to go for Gyros.


The one that gets me is 'Alma'. In Hebrew that means -young virgin maiden- like Mary.

Why would a father name his son that?

[Reeder]

Zenos doesn't sound like a Hebrew name to me. Sounds like a place to go for Gyros.


The one that gets me is 'Alma'. In Hebrew that means -young virgin maiden- like Mary.

Why would a father name his son that?

The plates were translated from reformed Egyptian, not Hebrew. BTW, in Spanish "Alma" means "soul." (not that they spoke Spanish :D )

I wouldn't think too much of it. It would be a stretch to think that we can understand the meaning of Alma's name from over 2,000 years ago from a language that no longer exists.

[Jacob_Rising]

The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). What does this supposed to mean?

Paul was a Jew, Some people say Luke wasn't a Jew but those people are wrong.

[CMike11]

Zenos doesn't sound like a Hebrew name to me. Sounds like a place to go for Gyros.


The one that gets me is 'Alma'. In Hebrew that means -young virgin maiden- like Mary.

Why would a father name his son that?

Alma is "young woman"

Betula is a "virgin"

[Gidon]

The plates were translated from reformed Egyptian, not Hebrew. BTW, in Spanish "Alma" means "soul." (not that they spoke Spanish :D )

I wouldn't think too much of it. It would be a stretch to think that we can understand the meaning of Alma's name from over 2,000 years ago from a language that no longer exists.

The Hebrew language has remained constant for a lot longer than that. Another thing, and I'm just asking. Where is the evidence of Hebrew DNA and culture and calendar and faith in pre Columbian Native American peoples? Where is the archaeology?

I can prove that the Indians aren't Jews. Jews would have never sold Manhattan for $24.

I have been on several reservations, never met anyone named Running Deer Lipschitz or Crazy Horse Cohen.

[chrisc]

Living, dead don't matter.

The simple facts are, there are no writings of Prophets outside the bible.

Not according to the Bible.

What if there were ancient prophets who were inspired by God to write things that never made it into the Bible? They got lost. Would you believe those records if found?

The Bible itself references the following "Lost Scriptures":

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/40 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/40)



There could have been a couple prophets after the New Testament, I don't know, either way, I don't have their writings.

Just like there could have been people that went around healing as did Jesus and the desciples.

But the simple facts are, There are no healers right now.

If you say there is, then I need a healing.

If you say there are prophets, where are his writings?


Remember what the Bible teaches. It is not just prophets who have been given the gift of healing. It is a gift of the Spirit.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (1 Corinthians 12:7-10)

It is true that people can be healed by faith and the power of prayer. However, it is through the priesthood power of God that healing is primarily done. I assure you that the priesthood power is alive and well on the earth today. It is unknown to many, but it is here. The priesthood has the power to heal.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (James 5:14)

On May 15, 1829 the priesthood was restored to the earth just as it was in ancient times. John the Baptist (then a resurrected angelic being) ordained Joseph Smith and Olivery Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood and said,

"1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. "

Later Peter, James and John (also angelic beings) ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

We currently have a prophet and 12 apostles on the earth today who are led directly by Jesus Christ. Scriptures have been brought forth. All a person needs to do is read, ponder and pray to learn this is true. Of course faith is important as well. You can read these scriptures for yourself at:

http://www.scriptures.lds.org/

[Gidon]

Hence the critical need for a true prophet! The Bible alone is not enough! Thanks for proving my point.

there is no need for a prophet my friend. we have all we need.


Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

[Reeder]

The Hebrew language has remained constant for a lot longer than that.

Perhaps you didn't hear me the first time........the plates were not translated from Hebrew, but from reformed Egyptian, which no longer exists.



Another thing, and I'm just asking. Where is the evidence of Hebrew DNA and culture and calendar and faith in pre Columbian Native American peoples? Where is the archaeology?

You'll have to research that one on your own. I don't study archaeology/calendars, etc too often.


I can prove that the Indians aren't Jews. Jews would have never sold Manhattan for $24.

:)) The native Americans are possible descendants of the Jews from more than 2600 years ago. If you've read the Book of Mormon, you'd know that the Lamanites essentially "forgot" God and His teachings. After a couple of milenia in that state, you can imagine what kind of "religion" and beliefs they'd have. They would be nothing like their Jewish counterparts in the Old World.


I have been on several reservations, never met anyone named Running Deer Lipschitz or Crazy Horse Cohen.

:))

[Gidon]

Perhaps you didn't hear me the first time........the plates were not translated from Hebrew, but from reformed Egyptian, which no longer exists.




You'll have to research that one on your own. I don't study archaeology/calendars, etc too often.



:)) The native Americans are possible descendants of the Jews from more than 2600 years ago. If you've read the Book of Mormon, you'd know that the Lamanites essentially "forgot" God and His teachings. After a couple of milenia in that state, you can imagine what kind of "religion" and beliefs they'd have. They would be nothing like their Jewish counterparts in the Old World.



:))

I appreciate the fact we can disagree but still laugh at the funny stuff. You're a good egg. I gotta fly for now but you and your loved ones have a great weekend.

G-man

[Reeder]

there is no need for a prophet my friend. we have all we need.

Really? Perhaps you should speak for yourself.


Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus' earthly mission was finished. Thats quite a stretch, IMHO, to interpret the words "it is finished" as meaning that we will need nothing for the rest of time. To strengthen my point, look at all the New Testament writings and teachings of the Apostles which were given and created AFTER Christ had said those words.

[chrisc]

Zenos doesn't sound like a Hebrew name to me. Sounds like a place to go for Gyros.


The one that gets me is 'Alma'. In Hebrew that means -young virgin maiden- like Mary.

Why would a father name his son that?

You ask an excellent question. Read the following about Alma:

Alma
"The name Alma is used more often in the Book of Mormon than any except Nephi. It has also received more attention from critics and defenders of the Book of Mormon than any other name. Some critics have assumed that Joseph Smith must have got Alma from a Latin word that means "nourishing" and is used as a name for females in some languages descended from Latin. This false assumption has led these people to claim that no divine record in the Hebrew tradition would apply a Latin feminine name to an obviously masculine Book of Mormon prophet.
But no well-informed person would make this mistake today, because the name Alma, as Hugh Nibley pointed out years ago,1 (http://farms.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=7&num=1&id=173#Anchor-1.-22714) appears in an undeniably Semitic language document, one of the letters of Bar Kokhba, a leader in the Holy Land during the Second Jewish Revolt against the Romans around AD 130. The name, used in a business document that was written in the form of a letter, is Alma ben Yehudah (Alma, son of Yehudah). The accompanying photograph displays it, at the end of the fourth line (remember that Hebrew writing flows from right to left) spelled 'lm', and at the beginning of the fourth line from the bottom, 'lmh"

Read the rest of this article at:
http://farms.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=7&num=1&id=173


The names in the Book of Mormon are one of the great evidences of the truth of that book. Had Joseph Smith written that book himself, he would have never been able to come up with the large list of unique names in that book. The majority of these names are Hebrew and Egyptian, but Hittite, Arabic and Ionian elements are not missing. How was a young man in 1830 able to come up with all those names, some of which were not known until later? For example, the Book of Mormon "Paankhi" was a popular Egyptian name in the seventh century B.C., but it was not known until the end of the last century. To say he got lucky is an understatement. And the list goes on. You'd love Hugh Nibley.

[Jacob_Rising]

Not according to the Bible.

What if there were ancient prophets who were inspired by God to write things that never made it into the Bible? They got lost. Would you believe those records if found?

The Bible itself references the following "Lost Scriptures":

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/40 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/40)





Remember what the Bible teaches. It is not just prophets who have been given the gift of healing. It is a gift of the Spirit.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (1 Corinthians 12:7-10)

It is true that people can be healed by faith and the power of prayer. However, it is through the priesthood power of God that healing is primarily done. I assure you that the priesthood power is alive and well on the earth today. It is unknown to many, but it is here. The priesthood has the power to heal.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (James 5:14)

On May 15, 1829 the priesthood was restored to the earth just as it was in ancient times. John the Baptist (then a resurrected angelic being) ordained Joseph Smith and Olivery Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood and said,

"1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. "

Later Peter, James and John (also angelic beings) ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

We currently have a prophet and 12 apostles on the earth today who are led directly by Jesus Christ. Scriptures have been brought forth. All a person needs to do is read, ponder and pray to learn this is true. Of course faith is important as well. You can read these scriptures for yourself at:

http://www.scriptures.lds.org/I've read everything that is considered scripture but isn't in the bible and it lacks the common thread found throughout all the books of the bible.

There are also books in the bible that I would not have included and when it comes to the people who put the bible together, well that's another story. I don't like those people.

I appriciate that you believe Joseph Smith Got something but I have studied those writings also and they lack a common thread found in the prophets in my opinion.

You can quote Corinthians about the gifts but I know of no such gifts.

I spoke in toungues for 20 years and stopped, I prophecied over people and then I stopped.

The fact remains that nobody has those gifts spoken of in the bible.

Well, that's my opinion, But show me one single person on this entire Earth that I may bring a sick child to and expect a healing.

There is no such animal, Where is he?

But when your quoting the New Testament on gifts, these gifts were given to people in Judaism.

If you leave the religion, will the gifts still come to you?

I don't believe so.

I don't see Modern Christianity today as being anything like the first Christian church, therefore the gifts don't apply.

And you certainly can't show me a single person with a Gift, If so, where is he?

Talk is cheap, a sick and dying child is reality, with no hope.

[chrisc]

What does this supposed to mean?

Paul was a Jew, Some people say Luke wasn't a Jew but those people are wrong.
Yes, Paul was a Jew. See my correction in earlier post.

[Reeder]

I appreciate the fact we can disagree but still laugh at the funny stuff. You're a good egg. I gotta fly for now but you and your loved ones have a great weekend.

G-man

Igualmente!

[chrisc]

The Hebrew language has remained constant for a lot longer than that. Another thing, and I'm just asking. Where is the evidence of Hebrew DNA and culture and calendar and faith in pre Columbian Native American peoples? Where is the archaeology?

I can prove that the Indians aren't Jews. Jews would have never sold Manhattan for $24.

I have been on several reservations, never met anyone named Running Deer Lipschitz or Crazy Horse Cohen.

Read what non-Mormon Ethan Smith wrote about this almost 200 years ago after extensive research in "View of the Hebrews". He believed the Indians were the lost 10 tribes of Israel and has some amazing evidence. (which wouldn't make them Jews)

http://books.google.com/books?id=thFZYLuCY_4C&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0

Just to name a few:

1. They all appear to have had one origin.
2. Their language appears a corruption of Hebrew
3. They have their holy ark
4. They have practiced circumcision
5. They have one, and only one, God
6. Their being in tribes, with heads of tribes

Regarding their language being a corruption of Hebrew he mentions:
1. Both are found without prepositions, and are formed with prefixes and suffixes; a thing probably known to no other language.
2. The construction of phrases in both have been the same.
3. Their pronouns and nouns are manifestly from Hebrew.

He then gives a list of English, Indian and Hebrew words and phrases. Look at the amazing similarities here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=thFZYLuCY_4C&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA90,M1

In 1803 in Massachusetts, the name of the being the indians worshipped was "Abamocko". And an indian tribe in the south calls God "Abba-mingo-ishto". Which means "Father-chief-man". Hey, that seems to also help the Mormons out a bit saying that God is the chief "man".

[chrisc]

there is no need for a prophet my friend. we have all we need.


Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Here are some additional words from Jesus Christ:

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?


5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?


7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.


11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever. (Book of Mormon, chapter 29)

[smyrna]

There were no laws of Moses. Moses made no laws. G-D made laws. Moses was a man, not G-D. Only G-D made commandments for the jewish people.
Deuteronomy 4:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=4&verse=44&version=48&context=verse)
And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel.

Call it what you will.

[Constantine the Great]

Hence the critical need for a true prophet! The Bible alone is not enough! Thanks for proving my point.

Ahh, no the exact opposite is true. In my opinion, your whole premise is wrong, and patently false. There are no prophets today because there is no need for prophets today. God grants prophets on His time and Will, and they are not found in the LDS church in my opinion.

[THE LIGHT]

I am interested in hearing your various opinions on the following questions:

1. Do you believe Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Peter were all true prophets of God?

2. What are the specific differences between a true prophet and a false prophet? (Please expound beyond just saying, "They teach from the Bible" since none of the above prophets had the Bible.)

3. How many true churches existed under the direction of each of these prophets? (when I say church, I don't mean a building, I mean an orgainization under one common belief system)

4. Do all true prophets teach the same gospel truths? In other words, was Moses' gospel the same as Adams? Was Abraham's gospel the same as Noah's, etc?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. -Hebrews 13:8


6. Christians believe in the Bible and therefore believe that the Jews were once the Lord's covenant people and had the true gospel. The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). Now Christians have taken this record of Judah and made it their own. When and how did the Jews lose the true gospel? When and how did the Christians restore the true gospel?

I believe that the Jews are still G-d's covenant people. And no, Christians never restored any true gospel.

[THE LIGHT]

Here are some additional words from Jesus Christ:

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?


5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?


7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.


11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever. (Book of Mormon, chapter 29)

With all due respect and unless I have missed something, those are words from the Book of Mormon and NOT from Jesus.

[THE LIGHT]

The Hebrew language has remained constant for a lot longer than that. Another thing, and I'm just asking. Where is the evidence of Hebrew DNA and culture and calendar and faith in pre Columbian Native American peoples? Where is the archaeology?

I can prove that the Indians aren't Jews. Jews would have never sold Manhattan for $24.

I have been on several reservations, never met anyone named Running Deer Lipschitz or Crazy Horse Cohen.

:))

[chrisc]

I've read everything that is considered scripture but isn't in the bible and it lacks the common thread found throughout all the books of the bible.

There are also books in the bible that I would not have included and when it comes to the people who put the bible together, well that's another story. I don't like those people.

I appriciate that you believe Joseph Smith Got something but I have studied those writings also and they lack a common thread found in the prophets in my opinion.

What do you mean by common thread? What were you looking for?

I believe the common thread in the Old Testiment, New Testiment, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants & Pearl of Great Price is that Jesus is the Christ. That we are all children of a loving Heavenly Father who wants us to learn to love each other and return to Him.



You can quote Corinthians about the gifts but I know of no such gifts.

I spoke in toungues for 20 years and stopped, I prophecied over people and then I stopped.


I'm confused. You say you spoke in tongues (a gift) and prophecied (another gift), but you know of no such gift? Were you faking it? Was it not of God?

I can assure you, that these gifts are present today. I can bear witness to that. Faith is the key. You must trust in the Lord. About 400 AD the prophet Moroni said a few things about this:

33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me.
34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.

35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. (Book of Mormon, Moroni 7:33-37)



The fact remains that nobody has those gifts spoken of in the bible.

Well, that's my opinion, But show me one single person on this entire Earth that I may bring a sick child to and expect a healing.

There is no such animal, Where is he?


The gift of healing is real and is on the earth. But I think you misunderstand how God's priesthood works. God allows death many times because it is that person's time to pass on. They are many times needed somewhere else and have a greater work to do beyond the veil. You shouldn't expect to heal someone against God's will. This is where you have to be very much in tune with the Spirit of the Holy Ghost so that you can know God's will. Sometimes God allows us to have a handicap or to suffer. God didn't necessary cause it, but he allows it. Sometimes we bring it upon ourselves through our mistakes. He loves us and wants us to grow by faith. He will help us along the way. This life was not meant to be perfect like heaven. We have come here to learn good from bad, happiness from sadness. Think about it, if you were never sick, you would never know what health was. Those of us who have been really sick REALLY appreciate health. We develop patience, long-suffering, meekness, love, humility through suffering. It is only temporary and very short compared to eternity. If you are sick or going through pain, trust in the Lord.




But when your quoting the New Testament on gifts, these gifts were given to people in Judaism.

If you leave the religion, will the gifts still come to you?

I don't believe so.

I don't see Modern Christianity today as being anything like the first Christian church, therefore the gifts don't apply.

And you certainly can't show me a single person with a Gift, If so, where is he?

Talk is cheap, a sick and dying child is reality, with no hope.


Ask for the LDS missionaries to come give you a blessing. They have been given that same priesthood power that Christ gave his apostles. Trust in the Lord's will.

[chrisc]

Ahh, no the exact opposite is true. In my opinion, your whole premise is wrong, and patently false. There are no prophets today because there is no need for prophets today. God grants prophets on His time and Will, and they are not found in the LDS church in my opinion.
You are right that God grants prophets on His time and His will. It appears you believe the heavens are sealed and the Bible is all we need. No more revelation from God. We have heard enough. We've let God know He's done talking to us now and we've put all His words into a nice little book. Then we each interpret this book differently and argue about who is right. We argue about what a person must do to return to God -- everyone has a different opinion -- of course based on their interpretation of the Bible.

The prophet Joseph Smith had this same arguement put to him many times in his day. That guy was awesome! Our times are no different. Joseph would say (paraphrased) -- Have the heavens been sealed? Has God stopped talking to man? Did all revelation end with the Bible? Then there must be a great flaw in that book. For it never says so. For you see it takes revelation to end revelation.

The heavens are NOT sealed. Today there is a living God who speaks through a living prophet. As things deteriorate throughout the earth in the next few years, you may witness that reality.

[chrisc]

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. -Hebrews 13:8




I believe that the Jews are still G-d's covenant people. And no, Christians never restored any true gospel.

I'm confused. You say Christians never restored the gospel and then you quote Hebrews, a Christian book. Are you Jewish or Christian?

[chrisc]

With all due respect and unless I have missed something, those are words from the Book of Mormon and NOT from Jesus.


Do you think you could make up 14 verses of similar quality yourself? Come on, it should be easy. If Joseph Smith wrote this naturally you should be smarter than a young farmer with a 3rd grade education. By the way, you are not allowed to use a computer, the internet or a library. You can use what was available in 1830 -- a quill pen and scratch paper! Of course I'm only asking for 14 verses, not 531 pages like we currently have.

[chrisc]

With all due respect and unless I have missed something, those are words from the Book of Mormon and NOT from Jesus.
It appears you are Jewish. Do you see that these 14 verses are the Lord DEFENDING the Jews? When I read it myself, I can sense the Savior's words.

[smyrna]

You are right that God grants prophets on His time and His will. It appears you believe the heavens are sealed and the Bible is all we need. No more revelation from God. We have heard enough. We've let God know He's done talking to us now and we've put all His words into a nice little book. Then we each interpret this book differently and argue about who is right. We argue about what a person must do to return to God -- everyone has a different opinion -- of course based on their interpretation of the Bible.

The prophet Joseph Smith had this same arguement put to him many times in his day. That guy was awesome! Our times are no different. Joseph would say (paraphrased) -- Have the heavens been sealed? Has God stopped talking to man? Did all revelation end with the Bible? Then there must be a great flaw in that book. For it never says so. For you see it takes revelation to end revelation.

The heavens are NOT sealed. Today there is a living God who speaks through a living prophet. As things deteriorate throughout the earth in the next few years, you may witness that reality.

We have something today that the old testament never had...the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit is the heavens opened. The heavens are not shut. The Lord Jesus and I have a daily relationship.

It sounds like you need a sign. Something supernatural to keep your interest. More revelation.

I see wonderful, meaningful, small miracles in my life everyday. These little miracles inspire me and motivate me and encourage me that I am on the right road. I also see much work is yet to be done in the harvest and I am very busy working doing what was bid of me by our Lord 2000 years ago.

Prophecy, speaking tongues or other spiritual gifts I neither have nor have I witnessed these gifts. I do not feel deprived. Also the Bible is discussed to learn more. An argument has no love in it and therefore is not of the Lord. A good discussion amongst the brethren to learn in a loving manner is of the Lord. That is what is being done right now.

I do ask you one question though...have you...by yourself...read the Bible...starting at the beginning and using a bookmark to save your place...and continuing all the way through...from cover to cover? I mean no disrespect, but by your questions it appears you have not. Read it for yourself completely and you will find that the awesome one...is Jesus!

[Constantine the Great]

You are right that God grants prophets on His time and His will. It appears you believe the heavens are sealed and the Bible is all we need.
Wrong. You should read up on Orthodoxy before making assumptions.

No more revelation from God. We have heard enough. We've let God know He's done talking to us now and we've put all His words into a nice little book. Then we each interpret this book differently and argue about who is right. We argue about what a person must do to return to God -- everyone has a different opinion -- of course based on their interpretation of the Bible.
Everyone has a different opinion, but not all of them can be right. I don't believe the LDS opinion to be the right opinion. There are many good messages in the LDS faith, but that does not make it correct in my opinion.

The prophet Joseph Smith had this same arguement put to him many times in his day. That guy was awesome!
I'm glad you think so. I find him to be quite unremarkable.
Our times are no different. Joseph would say (paraphrased) -- Have the heavens been sealed? Has God stopped talking to man? Did all revelation end with the Bible? Then there must be a great flaw in that book. For it never says so. For you see it takes revelation to end revelation.

The heavens are NOT sealed. Today there is a living God who speaks through a living prophet. As things deteriorate throughout the earth in the next few years, you may witness that reality.
Yees our God is a living God. I just dont believe His mouthpiece is in the LDS church.

[Ron Jon]

Perhaps Christ was partly alluding to Isaiah's reference. In the Book of Mormon there is a very detailed and complex allegory of the tame and wild olive trees that also has similarities. This was written by a prophet named Zenos. Zenos was a prophet in Israel. Some speculate that he probably lived around the time of Isaiah and could have been part of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. Of course there is no mention of him in the Bible, however, the prophets in the Book of Mormon had brought with them the "plates of brass" from Jerusalem which contained a record of the five books of Moses down to King Zedekiah. (There are many "lost" books from the Bible.) This is why Isaiah is quoted so frequently in the Book of Mormon. Zenos's allegory is long, but here it is:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/5Of course another reason Zenos is not mentioned in the Bible is because he was a fictional character. Just saying. . . ;)

[Ron Jon]

The plates were translated from reformed Egyptian, not Hebrew. BTW, in Spanish "Alma" means "soul." (not that they spoke Spanish :D )

I wouldn't think too much of it. It would be a stretch to think that we can understand the meaning of Alma's name from over 2,000 years ago from a language that no longer exists.Or one that never existed in the first place (at least not Joseph Smith's version of it).

[Ron Jon]

What does this supposed to mean?

Paul was a Jew, Some people say Luke wasn't a Jew but those people are wrong.Perhaps they mean Luke wasn't a literal descendant of one of the tribes of Israel. He could have been a Gentile convert. Who knows? Do you?

[Ron Jon]

Alma is "young woman"

Betula is a "virgin"It can be either, especially given the fact it is more likely a "young woman" would be a "virgin" than an old woman. IOW, it's implied.

[Ron Jon]

The Bible itself references the following "Lost Scriptures":

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/40 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/40)Where, in the Bible, does it call these books "Scriptures"? Just because YOU ASSUME they are "Scripture" doesn't make it so. I think it would be hilarious if one of these so-called "Lost Scriptures" were to be found and it completely contradicted one or more of your unique LDS doctrines. Now that would be funny. Be careful what you call "scripture" especially when you don't know what is contained in those books.

On May 15, 1829 the priesthood was restored to the earth just as it was in ancient times. John the Baptist (then a resurrected angelic being) ordained Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood and said,

"1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. "

Later Peter, James and John (also angelic beings) ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

We currently have a prophet and 12 apostles on the earth today who are led directly by Jesus Christ. Scriptures have been brought forth. All a person needs to do is read, ponder and pray to learn this is true. Of course faith is important as well. You can read these scriptures for yourself at:

http://www.scriptures.lds.org/Chris, I understand you believe the above quote to be true, but in reality this particular passage wasn't even a part of the original Book of Commandments. As a matter of fact, the original only said:

BoC 28:6-7, p. 60 — "Behold this is wisdom in me, wherefore marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world:
Wherefore lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins and be faithful until I come: even so. Amen.

[Harmony, Pennsylvania September 4, 1830]

[View Book of Commandments text. (http://www.irr.org/mit/boc/1833boc-p60.html)]

Compare with the 1835 Doctrine & Covenants (http://www.irr.org/mit/d&c/1835dc-p180.html).

"D&C 27:5ff — Behold this is wisdom in me, wherefore marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you, on the earth, and with [Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of the everlasting gospel…]

[Harmony, Pennsylvania first part August 1830, remainder September 1830]

Note: At this point in the revelation over 300 words are added regarding the restoration of the [LDS] priesthood by means of divine ordination. By making the account part of a revelation that is dated to 1830, it appears the story has been known since then. However, it is not a part of any revelation until the 1835 edition of the Doctrine & Covenants. Apparently Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, who were in charge of editing the 1835 D&C, inserted this material so that the concept of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods being restored and the office of high priest would appear to have been in place from the start and would appear to have been given directly by God. The revelation concludes with over 130 additional words, taken from the Bible copied almost verbatim from Ephesian 6:13-17. No explanation is given for the dating discrepancy." http://www.irr.org/mit/changing-scripture.html

[Ron Jon]

The topic of the alleged restoration of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods was addressed by myself before, so for the sake of those who didn't get to read it I'll post it again here.

"What's interesting is that the LDS church claims the original revelation came to Joseph Smith in August 1830 "HC 1: 106–108." Which is basically a claim B.H. Roberts (an LDS historian) made. And according to the LDS church Joseph Smith "was met by a heavenly messenger and received this revelation, a portion of which was written at the time, and the remainder in the September following."

Now, if this were true, then why wasn't it written down in it's entirety?
When we compare the Book of Commandments (which is what the Mormons used before the Doctrine & Covenants replaced it) which was published in 1833 with the 1835 D&C we see a mighty big omission. Click the following link to see for yourself. http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/boc/boc28.shtml

"The important details that are missing from the 'full history' of 1834 are likewise missing from the Book of Commandments in 1833. The student would expect to find all the particulars of the Restoration in this first treasured set of 65 revelations, the dates of which encompassed the bestowals of the two Priesthoods, but they are conspicuously absent... The notable revelations on Priesthood in the Doctrine and Covenants before referred to, Sections 2 and 13, are missing, and Chapter 28 gives no hint of the Restoration which, if actual, had been known for four years. More than four hundred words were added to this revelation of August, 1829 in Section 27 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the additions made to include the names of heavenly visitors and two separate ordinations. The Book of Commandments gives the duties of Elders, Priests, Teachers, and Deacons and refers to Joseph's apostolic calling but there is no mention of Melchezedek Priesthood, High Priesthood, Seventies, High Priests, nor High Councilors. These words were later inserted into the revelation on Church organization and government of April, 1830, making it appear that they were known at that date, but they do not appear in the original, Chapter 24 of the Book of Commandments three years later. Similar interpolations were made in the revelations known as Sections 42 and 68." (Problems in Mormon Text, by La Mar Petersen, pp. 7-8). http://www.lds-mormon.com/mph.shtml

[CMike11]

Deuteronomy 4:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=4&verse=44&version=48&context=verse)
And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel.

Call it what you will.

Yeah...so. I call that the Laws form G-D that Moses brought down from the Mountain of Sinai.

This is a fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism's most basic and sacred tenent is that only G-D issued commandments.

We don't believe that anyone else, such as Jesus, or whomever, had the power to make commandments.

Therefore this is the Ten Commandments, Tanach, Torah, Laws of G-D, Et.

[hillplus]

Yeah...so. I call that the Laws form G-D that Moses brought down from the Mountain of Sinai.

.......

No one would disagree with you, it's just a lot more words to say, that's all. I don't think there's any disrespect toward God meant, do you?

[terri910]

Really? Perhaps you should speak for yourself.

Kind of nicer to have it stated as someone's belief rather than fact, ain't it? ;)

[terri910]

.It appears you believe the heavens are sealed and the Bible is all we need.

It appears that the Jews lost this at some point.

And then after Christ restored the truth it appears that the Christians lost this at some point also.

I think a number of different people would be saying, "Things are not always as they "appear" to you."

[chrisc]

We have something today that the old testament never had...the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit is the heavens opened. The heavens are not shut. The Lord Jesus and I have a daily relationship.
I mean no disrespect towards you and hope you will forgive me if you sensed otherwise. The special communication you have with God through the Holy Ghost is what I call "revelation". Something is revealed to you. You have the right to receive revelation for yourself. In the days of old, prophets received revelation (commincation) from God for the entire membership of the church. Most don't believe in this type of revelation today. I have learned that this revelation through prophets and apostles of God does occur today. This is what I meant.

It sounds like you need a sign. Something supernatural to keep your interest. More revelation.
No, I don't need a sign. And I'm sure you don't either. You have the Holy Ghost in your life. I also am guided by the Holy Ghost daily and as I pray to God. Although the Holy Ghost is supernatural, I wouldn't classify it or revelation as your typical "sign". When I think of a sign I think of something you see with your eyes. This will not increase your faith. They feelings of the Holy Ghost or revelation will increase faith and as I'm sure you agree are what our Heavenly Father wants us to have.


I see wonderful, meaningful, small miracles in my life everyday. These little miracles inspire me and motivate me and encourage me that I am on the right road. I also see much work is yet to be done in the harvest and I am very busy working doing what was bid of me by our Lord 2000 years ago.

I have no doubt that you are doing what the Lord wants you to do. You sound like a good person.


Prophecy, speaking tongues or other spiritual gifts I neither have nor have I witnessed these gifts. I do not feel deprived. Also the Bible is discussed to learn more. An argument has no love in it and therefore is not of the Lord. A good discussion amongst the brethren to learn in a loving manner is of the Lord. That is what is being done right now.

I agree. Let's not argue.

I do ask you one question though...have you...by yourself...read the Bible...starting at the beginning and using a bookmark to save your place...and continuing all the way through...from cover to cover? I mean no disrespect, but by your questions it appears you have not. Read it for yourself completely and you will find that the awesome one...is Jesus!

Thank you for asking. Yes, I have read the Bible cover to cover many times. I have a strong testimony of the Bible and know it is the word of God. Yes, I use a bookmark. Right now I'm in the book of 1 Kings. Perhaps you misunderstood me. In our religion our scriptures are the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. I have read all of these books many times and continue to do so on a regular basis. I also try to read other good uplifting books.

You are correct... THE awesome one is JESUS CHRIST. He is the savior of the world. There is NONE who has ever lived on this earth perfect like Him. I love the Savior and am eternally grateful for His Atonement. ONLY through Him can we return to Father again. He is the way, the truth and the life. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Joseph Smith are simply among those great men I admire and hope to be more like.

[chrisc]

Wrong. You should read up on Orthodoxy before making assumptions.


Everyone has a different opinion, but not all of them can be right. I don't believe the LDS opinion to be the right opinion. There are many good messages in the LDS faith, but that does not make it correct in my opinion.


I'm glad you think so. I find him to be quite unremarkable.

Yees our God is a living God. I just dont believe His mouthpiece is in the LDS church.
Perhaps I was too quick to judge what you believe.

Will you share with me what you believe regarding these issues of the Bible, prophets and revelation?

[chrisc]

Of course another reason Zenos is not mentioned in the Bible is because he was a fictional character. Just saying. . . ;)
You "assume" too much Ron Jon. ;)

[meggers49]

According to Heb 7:24 Jesus has the Melchizedek priesthood permanently and it is "permanent, unchangeable, aparabatos". In other words, Jesus is the ONLY High Priest after the order of Melchizedek and therefore there is no need for another to succeed Him because He is ALIVE Forevermore! “The LORD has sworn
And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek’”),
by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

Some wonder if Melchizedek was in fact Christ...

[meggers49]

I don't believe there are any Prophets outside the Bible.

I've been prophecied to many, many times and it was always good but I don't believe them.

I personally know at least 10 people who consider themselves Prophets but I don't believe it.

I believe what Zechariah says about it, '' And they will all be ashamed of their prophecies''

I don't think that's accurate, because it says in Joel that at the time of the end there will be prophecies.


Joel 3 1-5 Then afterward I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind. Your sons and your daughters will prophecy and your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; Even upon the servents and the handmaids in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

And I will work wonders in the heavens, and on earth, blood, fire, and columns of smoke;

The sun will turn to darkness, and the moon to blood, At the coming of the day of the Lord, the great and terrible day.

Then everyone shall be rescued who calls on the name of the Lord;
For on Mount Zion there shall be a remnant as the Lord has said,
And in Jerusalem survivors whom the Lord shall call.


These things have not come to pass, ergo, the prophecies etc are still coming here for our edification.

[chrisc]

Where, in the Bible, does it call these books "Scriptures"? Just because YOU ASSUME they are "Scripture" doesn't make it so. I think it would be hilarious if one of these so-called "Lost Scriptures" were to be found and it completely contradicted one or more of your unique LDS doctrines. Now that would be funny. Be careful what you call "scripture" especially when you don't know what is contained in those books.

Perhaps you didn't click on the link I provided. Here are a few examples:

Wars of the Lord (Num. 21: 14 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/num/21/14#14)); book of Jasher (Josh. 10: 13 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/josh/10/13#13); 2 Sam. 1: 18 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_sam/1/18#18)); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11: 41 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/1_kgs/11/41#41)); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/1_chr/29/29#29)); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/1_chr/29/29#29)); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29: 29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/1_chr/29/29#29); 2 Chr. 9: 29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/9/29#29)); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9: 29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/9/29#29)); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9: 29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/9/29#29); 2 Chr. 12: 15 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/12/15#15); 2 Chr. 13: 22 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/13/22#22)); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12: 15 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/12/15#15)); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20: 34 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/20/34#34)); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33: 19 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/2_chr/33/19#19)); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5: 9 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/1_cor/5/9#9)); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3: 3 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/eph/3/3#3)); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4: 16 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/col/4/16#16)); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1: 14 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/jude/1/14#14)).

When God speaks to a prophet and they write it down, what would you call it? Read some of the scripture links above. For example, Jude 1:14 quotes Enoch (who lived thousands of years earlier) saying,

"14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. "

Where is Jude reading this from? It's not in the Bible. Since Jude lived thousands of years after Enoch, he has to be accessing some written record that has the prophecies of Enoch. From the above, it becomes apparent the early Jews had scriptures that are lost to us today.


Yes, I'm sure that anything discrediting the LDS church would be hillarious for you. That must be why you love to study so much anti-Mormon material. Keep searching! ;)

Chris, I understand you believe the above quote to be true, but in reality this particular passage wasn't even a part of the original Book of Commandments. As a matter of fact, the original only said:

BoC 28:6-7, p. 60 — "Behold this is wisdom in me, wherefore marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world:
Wherefore lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins and be faithful until I come: even so. Amen.

[Harmony, Pennsylvania September 4, 1830]

[View Book of Commandments text. (http://www.irr.org/mit/boc/1833boc-p60.html)]

Compare with the 1835 Doctrine & Covenants (http://www.irr.org/mit/d&c/1835dc-p180.html).

"D&C 27:5ff — Behold this is wisdom in me, wherefore marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you, on the earth, and with [Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of the everlasting gospel…]

[Harmony, Pennsylvania first part August 1830, remainder September 1830]

Note: At this point in the revelation over 300 words are added regarding the restoration of the [LDS] priesthood by means of divine ordination. By making the account part of a revelation that is dated to 1830, it appears the story has been known since then. However, it is not a part of any revelation until the 1835 edition of the Doctrine & Covenants. Apparently Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, who were in charge of editing the 1835 D&C, inserted this material so that the concept of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods being restored and the office of high priest would appear to have been in place from the start and would appear to have been given directly by God. The revelation concludes with over 130 additional words, taken from the Bible copied almost verbatim from Ephesian 6:13-17. No explanation is given for the dating discrepancy." http://www.irr.org/mit/changing-scripture.html

Joseph Smith received many revelations over a long period of time. The first attempt at printing these was called the "Book of Commandments". However, this was disrupted by a mob perceiving the Mormon's to be against slavery and a political threat:

"On July 20 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20), 1833 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1833) an anti-Mormon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mormon) and pro-slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Slavery_in_North_America) mob destroyed the press. The mob, purportedly frightened of Mormon political power, was incensed by an editorial in Phelps' Evening and Morning Star perceived to be abolitionist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#United_States). Breaking down the door, they razed Phelps' home and business in less than an hour. At that point, 65 revelations of the Book of Commandments, about two thirds the total, were already printed. Totaling 160 pages, most of the uncut and unbound sheets were destroyed in the ensuing fire. However, some neighbors including teenage sisters Caroline and Mary Elizabeth Rollins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Elizabeth_Rollins) saved remnants of nearly 100 copies."

Through much of the struggles, Joseph and others managed to compile, organize and edit all revelations up to that point and publish them in 1835 as the "Doctrine and Covenants". Edit revelations? Yes. By way of grammer corrections, surname additions, clarification, organizational terms & archaic word changes. IF he is truely a prophet of God, he has the right and responsibility to make sure things are as correct as they can be in man's degraded and weak language. See article below:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=6ec705481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

Most of the revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants were dictated to scribes. Spelling and punctuation became a responsibility shared by them.

The Bible itself has gone through hundreds of years of corrections and revisions -- even to the point where we have many different Bibles today.

Mark wrote one of the four gospels providing details of the Lord's life and ministry. There is no doubt that Mark was called of God to do this work. However, Mark never met the Savior. Mark likely got most of his writings from Peter, by the inspiration from God and much editing and revision since he wrote about things that had happened many years prior.

Brigham Young said,
“The revelations of God contain correct doctrine and principle, so far as they go; but it is impossible for the poor, weak, low, grovelling, sinful inhabitants of the earth to receive a revelation from the Almighty in all its perfections. He has to speak to us in a manner to meet the extent of our capacities. …
“If an angel should come into this congregation, or visit any individual of it, and use the language he uses in heaven, what would we be benefitted? Not any, because we could not understand a word he said. When angels come to visit mortals, they have to condescend to and assume, more or less, the condition of mortals, they have to descend to our capacities in order to communicate with us.” (Journal of Discourses, 2:314.)

[chrisc]

I don't think that's accurate, because it says in Joel that at the time of the end there will be prophecies.


Joel 3 1-5 Then afterward I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind. Your sons and your daughters will prophecy and your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; Even upon the servents and the handmaids in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

And I will work wonders in the heavens, and on earth, blood, fire, and columns of smoke;

The sun will turn to darkness, and the moon to blood, At the coming of the day of the Lord, the great and terrible day.

Then everyone shall be rescued who calls on the name of the Lord;
For on Mount Zion there shall be a remnant as the Lord has said,
And in Jerusalem survivors whom the Lord shall call.


These things have not come to pass, ergo, the prophecies etc are still coming here for our edification.
meggers49,

You are correct about prophets. Also don't forget the prophecy in Revelation 11:3-7 about the two prophets to be raised up in Jerusalem in the last days:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Modern prophets in our day!

[chrisc]

Some wonder if Melchizedek was in fact Christ...

But we know that Melchizedek lived during the time of Abraham from Genesis 14:
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

It may not mean anything to most here, but just for fun:

17 Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem; and his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness; 18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father. (Book of Mormon, Alma 13:17-18)



However it is highly likely that Melchizedek is Shem, son of Noah. Shem lived to be about 600 years old and Abraham lived to be about 175 years old. Salem was the former Jeru-salem.

[optrader]

I am interested in hearing your various opinions on the following questions:

[QUOTE]1. Do you believe Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Peter were all true prophets of God?


I would say it depends on your definition of prophets. That they were absolutely true to God's word and purpose is true and by this definition would say they were prophets but most people think of prophets as having a specific message to the people. They reveal God's plans. Scripture says "surely the Lord does nothing without first revealing his secrets to his servants the prophets." This is the best description of the purpose of prophets.


2. What are the specific differences between a true prophet and a false prophet? (Please expound beyond just saying, "They teach from the Bible" since none of the above prophets had the Bible.)



There are a couple of scriptures I use to determine this: Is. 8:20 "To the law (meaning the 10 commandments) and to the testimony, (meaning the rest of the Bible) if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them." a true prophet will be in harmony with the entirety God's word, there will be no contradiction. How do we know? 1 Thess. 5:21 "prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I would say we should study and know the word well, by this and scripture, we can know if a prophet is true. It also seems to me that true prophets were always persecuted and many killed, does this hold true today? :think:

3. How many true churches existed under the direction of each of these prophets? (when I say church, I don't mean a building, I mean an orgainization under one common belief system)


I don't know, but don't believe this is a test of being a true prophet.

4. Do all true prophets teach the same gospel truths? In other words, was Moses' gospel the same as Adams? Was Abraham's gospel the same as Noah's, etc?


Again, they would all be in harmony with the word of God, Adam could not know what Abraham would reveal. but we have the record, we can examine and determine in hindsight.


5. Although policies may change, Christ's church should have the same doctrines and ordinances throughout all history. What was Isaiah referring to when he condemned those who change God's ordinances by saying, "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5a) the laws, changed (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5b) the ordinance (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5c), broken (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5d) the everlasting (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5e) covenant (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/24/5f)." (Isaiah 24:5) What ordinances have been changed?

The Bible is not a history of two peoples, Jews and Christians, but a continuous history of God's people and their relationship with Him and His relationship with them. When Jesus came, the means of salvation changed, therfore anything that was done as a means of salvation (the temple system, for example) was changed.


6. Christians believe in the Bible and therefore believe that the Jews were once the Lord's covenant people and had the true gospel. The entire Bible was written by Jews with rare exception (eg Paul). Now Christians have taken this record of Judah and made it their own. When and how did the Jews lose the true gospel? When and how did the Christians restore the true gospel?

The Jews lost their "chosen" status in 34 AD at the stoning of Stephen. This marked the end of their 490 year probation that was given in Daniel. If you recall, the Lord gave Peter a vision with a sheet. The intent of this vision was to let Peter know that the message was to be preached to the Gentiles, something which caused quite a debate. Literal Israel has become spiritual Israel through Christianity, spiritual Israel is now Gods' "chosen."

[Ron Jon]

Perhaps you didn't click on the link I provided. Here are a few examples:

When God speaks to a prophet and they write it down, what would you call it? Read some of the scripture links above. For example, Jude 1:14 quotes Enoch (who lived thousands of years earlier)I can see how you (a Mormon) might view those examples as "scripture," but like I said before, none of them claim to be "scripture". According to Joseph Smith a prophet was only a "prophet" when acting as such. Do you believe EVERYTHING Joseph Smith said or had written down should be considered "scripture"?

Where is Jude reading this from? It's not in the Bible. Since Jude lived thousands of years after Enoch, he has to be accessing some written record that has the prophecies of Enoch. From the above, it becomes apparent the early Jews had scriptures that are lost to us today.You apparently are unaware of how the early Jews felt about their scriptures. I can assure you that IF Jude were quoting from a book he considered part of the holy scriptures (which would have been the Old Testament) we would have that particular book included in our canon today. “The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8 (see also 1 Peter 1:23-25).

Don't Mormons believe that God has given "scriptures" to all the nations and that there will be many more "scriptures" discovered in the future? If this is true, then it seems reasonable to assume that not all "scripture" is relevant to us. IOW, something God says to Enoch might have been relevant in his day, but may not be relevant in our day. By the same token, if God raises up a prophet in our day and he speaks of things which are relevant to us today, but would not make any sense to someone 3,000 years ago. So, again, I say you have failed to show that the books mentioned are in fact "scripture". Does a book have to be "scripture" in order to contain truth? How do you know Jude wasn't simply quoting something that was very common knowledge in his day, but to us today, it has been long forgotten (except his brief mention of it)?

Joseph Smith received many revelations over a long period of time. The first attempt at printing these was called the "Book of Commandments". However, this was disrupted by a mob perceiving the Mormon's to be against slavery and a political threat:

Joseph and others managed to compile, organize and edit all revelations up to that point and publish them in 1835 as the "Doctrine and Covenants". Edit revelations? Yes. By way of grammer corrections, surname additions, clarification, organizational terms & archaic word changes. IF he is truely a prophet of God, he has the right and responsibility to make sure things are as correct as they can be in man's degraded and weak language. Most of the revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants were dictated to scribes. Spelling and punctuation became a responsibility shared by them.The so-called "revelation" in question ADDED 300-400 extra words which changed the meaning of the original revelation entirely! If Joseph Smith were a true prophet of God (as LDS claim) then there would have been no need to add to this so-called "revelation"! The interpolation is a clear example that it was anything but a "revelation" from God.

The Bible itself has gone through hundreds of years of corrections and revisions -- even to the point where we have many different Bibles today.

Mark wrote one of the four gospels providing details of the Lord's life and ministry. There is no doubt that Mark was called of God to do this work. However, Mark never met the Savior. Mark likely got most of his writings from Peter, by the inspiration from God and much editing and revision since he wrote about things that had happened many years prior.#1, we are not talking about the Bible. If you want to then start a new thread. #2, attacking the Bible in no way exhonerates Joseph Smith and the changes he (and his scribes) made to the Book of Mormon, Book of Commandments/Doctrine & Covenants. I'm not playing this little shell game with you. Stick to the subject and stop trying to shift it from the BoC/D&C to the Bible.

Brigham Young said,
“The revelations of God contain correct doctrine and principle, so far as they go; but it is impossible for the poor, weak, low, grovelling, sinful inhabitants of the earth to receive a revelation from the Almighty in all its perfections. He has to speak to us in a manner to meet the extent of our capacities. …
“If an angel should come into this congregation, or visit any individual of it, and use the language he uses in heaven, what would we be benefitted? Not any, because we could not understand a word he said. When angels come to visit mortals, they have to condescend to and assume, more or less, the condition of mortals, they have to descend to our capacities in order to communicate with us.” (Journal of Discourses, 2:314.)Do you really want to go there? Do you really want to start quoting B.Y. and the JoDs? Because, believe me, I could have a lot of fun with his quotes.

[Gidon]

Explain this:

this in red letters so it's coming from the boss.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

looks like Jesus said it stopped with John the Immerser.

I'll take His Word over that of any other person.

Something tells me that Luke 16:6 would not have made it in the "JST". Of course that is my opinion.

[Semi-Sweet]

Explain this:

this in red letters so it's coming from the boss.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

looks like Jesus said it stopped with John the Immerser.

I'll take His Word over that of any other person.

Something tells me that Luke 16:6 would not have made it in the "JST". Of course that is my opinion.

I agree. Jesus the Christ doesn't need any help.

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

[Reeder]

I agree. Jesus the Christ doesn't need any help.

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Ironically, Hebrews (which you quoted) was written AFTER the time of Christ.

[Semi-Sweet]

Ironically, Hebrews (which you quoted) was written AFTER the time of Christ.

This is 'The Year of Our Lord 2009.' I don't think there will ever be a time. . . 'after the time of Christ'. because. . . . . . . .

Hbr 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

[HokieCougarVandal]

I can see how you (a Mormon) might view those examples as "scripture," but like I said before, none of them claim to be "scripture". According to Joseph Smith a prophet was only a "prophet" when acting as such. Do you believe EVERYTHING Joseph Smith said or had written down should be considered "scripture"?
1. Your right, RJ. The (missing) books mentioned in the Bible are not specifically called out as scripture. However, because they are not specifically addressed as scripture does not infer that they were never considered as such.
2. Scripture: (D&C 68:4) And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

You apparently are unaware of how the early Jews felt about their scriptures. I can assure you that IF Jude were quoting from a book he considered part of the holy scriptures (which would have been the Old Testament) we would have that particular book included in our canon today. “The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8 (see also 1 Peter 1:23-25).
3. Apparently those men that were "led by the Spirit" while canonnizing what Christians consider biblical scripture didn't get the memo that whatever Jude quotes should be included as well.
4. Word of God stands/edureth forever ... no disagreement here. Of course to narrow the scope of the word of God is (IMO) playing God.

Don't Mormons believe that God has given "scriptures" to all the nations and that there will be many more "scriptures" discovered in the future? If this is true, then it seems reasonable to assume that not all "scripture" is relevant to us. IOW, something God says to Enoch might have been relevant in his day, but may not be relevant in our day. By the same token, if God raises up a prophet in our day and he speaks of things which are relevant to us today, but would not make any sense to someone 3,000 years ago.
2nd Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Does a book have to be "scripture" in order to contain truth? How do you know Jude wasn't simply quoting something that was very common knowledge in his day, but to us today, it has been long forgotten (except his brief mention of it)?
5. No ... but all scripture contains truth.
6. We don't, pure and simple, but refer to comment #1.

The so-called "revelation" in question ADDED 300-400 extra words which changed the meaning of the original revelation entirely! If Joseph Smith were a true prophet of God (as LDS claim) then there would have been no need to add to this so-called "revelation"! The interpolation is a clear example that it was anything but a "revelation" from God.
IYO

#1, we are not talking about the Bible. If you want to then start a new thread. #2, attacking the Bible in no way exhonerates Joseph Smith and the changes he (and his scribes) made to the Book of Mormon, Book of Commandments/Doctrine & Covenants. I'm not playing this little shell game with you. Stick to the subject and stop trying to shift it from the BoC/D&C to the Bible.
He is sticking with the subject. We (LDS) do not deny there have been revisions and corrections to our canon. We are simply saying that the revisions made to our canon have been through revelation by God. Does this differ from the revisions made in history to the Bible? IMO, yes, but you may believe otherwise. Ultimately, the matter will be resolved in the next life, will it not?

[hillplus]

I agree. Jesus the Christ doesn't need any help.

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, unless (but, except) He reveals His secrets unto His servants the prophets.

[Reeder]

This is 'The Year of Our Lord 2009.' I don't think there will ever be a time. . . 'after the time of Christ'. because. . . . . . . .

Hbr 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer.

Lets put it this way, if you believe that nothing will be revealed but by the mouth of Christ, Himself (not through inspired Prophets or Apostles), then obviously the entire New Testament would be worthless to you.

But if Christ is always at the helm, directing and guiding His people, then perhaps you'd believe that he's providing that guidance through His Prophets and Apostles, just as He has always done, and just as He did after His resurrection - for many years.

Like Hillplus quoted:

Amos 3: 7

7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

[Jacob_Rising]

Perhaps they mean Luke wasn't a literal descendant of one of the tribes of Israel. He could have been a Gentile convert. Who knows? Do you?He was Jewish, all the desciples were completely Jewish.

[MobyMule]

He was Jewish, all the desciples were completely Jewish.

the disciples or the apostles? To me disciples were all the members of the church.

[Jacob_Rising]

the disciples or the apostles? To me disciples were all the members of the church.To History, the desiples were members of Judaism, they were members of the Jewish temple.

The gentiles who believed them came up to the gentile court to hear the law.

For over 100 years.

[Jacob_Rising]

I don't think that's accurate, because it says in Joel that at the time of the end there will be prophecies.


Joel 3 1-5 Then afterward I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind. Your sons and your daughters will prophecy and your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; Even upon the servents and the handmaids in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

And I will work wonders in the heavens, and on earth, blood, fire, and columns of smoke;

The sun will turn to darkness, and the moon to blood, At the coming of the day of the Lord, the great and terrible day.

Then everyone shall be rescued who calls on the name of the Lord;
For on Mount Zion there shall be a remnant as the Lord has said,
And in Jerusalem survivors whom the Lord shall call.


These things have not come to pass, ergo, the prophecies etc are still coming here for our edification.What happened in Jesus and in the desciples day was very rare, if it wasn't then something is wrong.

All religions claim healings from prayer, and in any religion people say it happens but it's always ambiguous.

I believe in Jesus because I believe what the New Testament says.

I believe that at one time the church walked around having everything in common going around healing everyone.

I believe these miracles were seen by thousands of people and these accounts are true and recorded.

But nothing I see in Christianity today would persuade me to believe in Jesus.

There are no men walking around healing people with true healings from God.

I believe these gifts came and went, and nobody can prove otherwise because there is no man out there that I can bring a sick child to and expect a miracle.

What happened in Jerusalem was a very small glimpse of what will happen globaly.

The spirit will return and languages will no longer be barriers but they will be proof of the spirit of God to unbelievers.

Once again men will walk around healing everyone.

It wont be ambiguous.



Isaiah 28:11 '' With stammering lips and another toungue, He will speak to this people.

1 Corinthians 14:21 '' With men of other tongues and other lips, I will speak to ''THIS PEOPLE''

To what people?

To Israel, To Judah, and all Israel.

This is what happened on the day of Pentacost when God used men of different languages to speak to Jews in their own tongues and dialect.

Why did God do this? Why did he use men to speak to his people?

Because at the first Pentacost on the 50th day Israel left Egypt and came to mount Sinia, God spoke to the people DIRECTLY.

The people were terrified and told Moses, '' Don't let God speak to us again lest we die''

God had hovered over them in a flaming fire and his voice came from the fire.

On the day of Pentacost he hovered above the desciples heads in a flaming fire and he made them speak languages they they didn't know.

Acts 2:15 '' For these men aren't drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what is spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh.

The Jews that thought the men were drunk should have recognized this working of the spirit that had been promised to come and it came.

There are no people out there speaking in tongues to Israel but this spirit will return.

When does the spirit return?

It returns when Ephraim returns to the Torah, and Israel is gathered to the mountains of Israel.

It returns before the great and terrible day of the Lord where Malachi says, '' In that day, ''REMEMBER THE LAW OF MOSES''

It returns when the hearts of the children turn back to the fathers.

When all those who left Judaism return to the religion given by God to follow.

In my opinion Christianity ended when it left Judaism and these signs, gifts and wonders will not return until Christianity returns to Judaism.

There is nothing more special about Christian tongues than there is tongues in any religion.

Christianity does not have a monopoloy on prayer and asking for healing.

Many religions do this and the statistics aren't any higher for healings than any other religion.

When the gift of healings and tongues return, it won't be ambiguous and the tongues wont be unintelligable.

It will be global and everyone will know that God for sure works in people.

[Jacob_Rising]

What do you mean by common thread? What were you looking for?

I believe the common thread in the Old Testiment, New Testiment, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants & Pearl of Great Price is that Jesus is the Christ. That we are all children of a loving Heavenly Father who wants us to learn to love each other and return to Him.




I'm confused. You say you spoke in tongues (a gift) and prophecied (another gift), but you know of no such gift? Were you faking it? Was it not of God?

I can assure you, that these gifts are present today. I can bear witness to that. Faith is the key. You must trust in the Lord. About 400 AD the prophet Moroni said a few things about this:

33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me.
34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.

35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. (Book of Mormon, Moroni 7:33-37)




The gift of healing is real and is on the earth. But I think you misunderstand how God's priesthood works. God allows death many times because it is that person's time to pass on. They are many times needed somewhere else and have a greater work to do beyond the veil. You shouldn't expect to heal someone against God's will. This is where you have to be very much in tune with the Spirit of the Holy Ghost so that you can know God's will. Sometimes God allows us to have a handicap or to suffer. God didn't necessary cause it, but he allows it. Sometimes we bring it upon ourselves through our mistakes. He loves us and wants us to grow by faith. He will help us along the way. This life was not meant to be perfect like heaven. We have come here to learn good from bad, happiness from sadness. Think about it, if you were never sick, you would never know what health was. Those of us who have been really sick REALLY appreciate health. We develop patience, long-suffering, meekness, love, humility through suffering. It is only temporary and very short compared to eternity. If you are sick or going through pain, trust in the Lord.





Ask for the LDS missionaries to come give you a blessing. They have been given that same priesthood power that Christ gave his apostles. Trust in the Lord's will.I spoke in tongues for 20 years, I thought it was from God.

I have laid hands on people speaking in tongues and watched them drop to their knees, at which time I would prophecy over them and they would write it down and tell you to this day that it was straight from God.

I tickled their ears and I supposedly worked in the spirit more than most.

I believed it, But not any longer.

The tongues had always made me cry when I spoke them and they made people around me cry.

But I no longer believe it was from God, I don't think it was the devil either.

Again, people can talk about healings all day long but there is no proof in the pudding and I see nothing that any other religion doesn't have.

Common thread.

There is a common thread in all the writings, in all the parables that people don't see.

It's who Jerusalem is, In one simple name, who is it?

Now you talk about a Priesthood, Christianity has a Priesthood but I don't believe in their Priesthood.

The Priesthood are people who will ultimatley teach the law to the nations,'' The law will go forth from Jerusalem''

We can see these Priests in Zechariah saying, And the whole world will then come up to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles''

They will be the people teaching this celebration to the world.

The Priesthood are those people who teach Judaism.

While Jesus may had a problem with the Priests in his day, he still said, '' Do what he tells you to do'' , refering to the high Priest.

In Judaism.

[Gem]

I've read everything that is considered scripture but isn't in the bible and it lacks the common thread found throughout all the books of the bible.

There are also books in the bible that I would not have included and when it comes to the people who put the bible together, well that's another story. I don't like those people.

I appriciate that you believe Joseph Smith Got something but I have studied those writings also and they lack a common thread found in the prophets in my opinion.

You can quote Corinthians about the gifts but I know of no such gifts.

I spoke in toungues for 20 years and stopped, I prophecied over people and then I stopped.

The fact remains that nobody has those gifts spoken of in the bible.

Well, that's my opinion, But show me one single person on this entire Earth that I may bring a sick child to and expect a healing.

There is no such animal, Where is he?

But when your quoting the New Testament on gifts, these gifts were given to people in Judaism.

If you leave the religion, will the gifts still come to you?

I don't believe so.

I don't see Modern Christianity today as being anything like the first Christian church, therefore the gifts don't apply.

And you certainly can't show me a single person with a Gift, If so, where is he?

Talk is cheap, a sick and dying child is reality, with no hope.


Then I guess you have never been in the right Church.

All the gifts of the Spirit works today in some Churches.

I have seen them all at work.

I have seen demons cast out of people.
I heard a demon talk back when he was told to get out of a person.

I have even seen a man that was demon possed that had a battle between the demon and the Spirit of God trying to get up to the alter of God. It was like watching someone play tug of war but the only player you could see was the man that had the demon.

The man would take a step forward then backward. but in time the battle was won by the Spirit of God.I also heard the demon screem when he did come out of this man. And today the man has his own church in Wyo.


I, even I, have been healed of skin cancer .

I also have the gift of descernment.

Others have the gift of tongues as well.

Like I said, all the gifts of the Spirit is at work here in the right Churches.

[Mr Common Sense]

Three true prophets: Moses, Muhammed, and Jesus!

[Gidon]

Three true prophets: Moses, Muhammed, and Jesus!



you're batting .333 there my friend. Moses is correct. Yeshua is the Messiah. and as well for the third.......

[Gem]

the disciples or the apostles? To me disciples were all the members of the church.

In the New Testament
Matthew , Mark, Luke, John. Paul, James , and all the rest of them were called desciples while they were walking the earth with Jesus and learning from Him.

After the Jesus rose from the dead and had resurrected ,
the disciples were called Apostals.
The disciples and Apostals are one and the same people.

[Gidon]

not everyone is a child of God.

everyone is a creation of God. just like a tree or a mountain.

A child of God loves and serves Him and calls upon him and he is Lord of your life.


If Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John. Then there are no more prophets.

How does one restore universal truth. If it is universal then it always stays truth. There is no need for restoration.

So what if there are other books mentioned. It doesn't change Torah Tanakh and B'rit Chadasha.

Jesus quoted Talmud but that is commentary not scripture.

We have all what we need.

Jesus said on the Cross 'IT IS FINISHED' to declare that His sacrifice wasn't good enough or in need of restoration is:

A. renouncing His Divinity.
B. calling Him a liar
C. downright heretical

[hillplus]

..... I think it would be hilarious if one of these so-called "Lost Scriptures" were to be found and it completely contradicted one or more of your unique LDS doctrines. Now that would be funny. .....


Bring it on!!
So far everything that has come out since the mid 1800's has vindicated the Book of Mormon. I look forward to more.
I think it is a pity that more has not come out because many have to stumble. I do understand why, though. We are to live by faith and look for the pure in heart.

[Jacob_Rising]

Then I guess you have never been in the right Church.

All the gifts of the Spirit works today in some Churches.

I have seen them all at work.

I have seen demons cast out of people.
I heard a demon talk back when he was told to get out of a person.

I have even seen a man that was demon possed that had a battle between the demon and the Spirit of God trying to get up to the alter of God. It was like watching someone play tug of war but the only player you could see was the man that had the demon.

The man would take a step forward then backward. but in time the battle was won by the Spirit of God.I also heard the demon screem when he did come out of this man. And today the man has his own church in Wyo.


I, even I, have been healed of skin cancer .

I also have the gift of descernment.

Others have the gift of tongues as well.

Like I said, all the gifts of the Spirit is at work here in the right Churches.If you put all your spiritual workings in a box and times them times a hundred, that would probably be how much I've seen.

I was raise with Cathrine Kulman and Jerry b Walker, I was at Walkers house just a few years ago.

I was raised in ministry, it was everyday all week, not just on Sundays.

I've seen the demons being cast out 100 times, I've been to every so called Revival since the 60's.

I've prayed with many, many people and watched them get slain in the spirit from my hands.

I have felt the drunkeness associated with slain in the spirit.

I've walked into prisons and delivered sermons and had every person crying including the prison guards, and when I left they thought I was a true prophet of God.

I was convinced I was THE TRUE prophet of God.

I could give more evidence to the so called workings of the Holy spirit than most anyone in ministry.

So how can a man argue this power? A man who has felt the drunkeness of the Spirit? RIGHT?

I have the evidence, I am the proof.

I've seen these things your talking about every week, all my life.

What could possibly change my mind about it?

Because I can show you the exact same things being done in cultures who never even heard the name Jesus.

The same power.

I believe Human kind has a certain power, Science would tell you the same thing depending on your own beliefs and attitudes.

I believe in God, I believe God works miracles in peoples lives, just as he has always done.

You pray and maybe you will get a healing, but so could Job, Abraham, and Elija.

Christianity wants people to believe that they have the same workings of the Holy spirit as during the days of Jesus.

I refute this and say that there is no man out there like Elisha, like Jesus, like Paul, or Peter.

Those men knew a healing was coming, that's the difference.

Elija sees by faith but Elisha saw by sight and he knew.

He could see the army of God and he was given a double portion of spirit.

That spirit might still be around but not the double portion anymore, I.M.O.

[Jacob_Rising]

A few years ago I was convinced that I had found the true Prophet of God and I went to see this man everytime he spoke.

One time I brought a friend from a shelter and he called my friend out of the audience and told him secrtet things to my friend he shouldn't have known.

It was on Tv every week for a while and it changed my friends life.

But one day I realized that this man was no prophet at all.

It didn't matter that he knew things he shouldn't know, so do I.

If your not prophecying what your supposed to be prophecying then your not speaking for God.

I could speak all day long and convince people I'm speaking for God.

All you gotta do is look at them, size them up and tell them what they want to hear.

[mgifford]

The Word speaks of Paul's Father being a Pharisee and of the "Tribe of Benjamin", his mother's sister and her son. The mother must have been very scarce. Was he Jew? Was he a prophet?

[Gidon]

The Word speaks of Paul's Father being a Pharisee and of the "Tribe of Benjamin", his mother's sister and her son. The mother must have been very scarce. Was he Jew? Was he a prophet?

Paul was a Jew. He studied under Gamaliel, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars in history. He was an apostle.

[mgifford]

Paul was a Jew. He studied under Gamaliel, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars in history. He was an apostle.

Yes, he was!

[Ron Jon]

According to Joseph Smith's history, he claims to have seen God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

But, according to Doctrine & Covenants 84:22 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84/22#22) "no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live" if he doesn't have the higher priesthood (Melchizedek Priesthood). How could Joseph Smith have literally seen God the Father if he didn't have the Melchizedek Priesthood at such a young age? (in 1820).

[Ron Jon]

Moses only saw the "hinder parts" of God as He moved past him. Just from that Moses became white headed.Which has nothing to do with Joseph Smith and what he said in D&C 84 compared to what he claimed to have seen in 1820.

[Ron Jon]

According to Doctrine & Covenants 84:22 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84/22#22) "no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live" if he doesn't have the higher priesthood (Melchizedek Priesthood). Either Joseph Smith had the priesthood in 1820 (which we know he didn't) or he was wrong.

[chrisc]

I would say it depends on your definition of prophets. That they were absolutely true to God's word and purpose is true and by this definition would say they were prophets but most people think of prophets as having a specific message to the people. They reveal God's plans. Scripture says "surely the Lord does nothing without first revealing his secrets to his servants the prophets." This is the best description of the purpose of prophets.


There are a couple of scriptures I use to determine this: Is. 8:20 "To the law (meaning the 10 commandments) and to the testimony, (meaning the rest of the Bible) if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them." a true prophet will be in harmony with the entirety God's word, there will be no contradiction. How do we know? 1 Thess. 5:21 "prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I would say we should study and know the word well, by this and scripture, we can know if a prophet is true. It also seems to me that true prophets were always persecuted and many killed, does this hold true today? :think:
I agree with everything you just said. I believe a modern prophet that fits this description is Joseph Smith. He was persecuted and killed at age 38 for his beliefs. He sealed his testimony with his blood. The true church of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth through him in 1830? You seem like a very intelligent person. Do you see a pattern here?

I don't know, but don't believe this is a test of being a true prophet.

Again, they would all be in harmony with the word of God, Adam could not know what Abraham would reveal. but we have the record, we can examine and determine in hindsight.

I agree with all of this.


The Bible is not a history of two peoples, Jews and Christians, but a continuous history of God's people and their relationship with Him and His relationship with them. When Jesus came, the means of salvation changed, therfore anything that was done as a means of salvation (the temple system, for example) was changed.

I'm not sure if I understand you. I don't believe the means of salvation changed. Jesus Christ or Jehovah has always been that means of salvation since Adam. I know policies and procedures will change, but doctrine will always stay the same. Remember what Christ said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Jesus Christ was the great and last sacrifice.

[chrisc]

The Jews lost their "chosen" status in 34 AD at the stoning of Stephen. This marked the end of their 490 year probation that was given in Daniel. If you recall, the Lord gave Peter a vision with a sheet. The intent of this vision was to let Peter know that the message was to be preached to the Gentiles, something which caused quite a debate. Literal Israel has become spiritual Israel through Christianity, spiritual Israel is now Gods' "chosen."

But literal Israel still exists upon the earth today. And many are adopted into Israel who are not of the literal blood.

Let me share this with you -- you may find it interesting.

As you know when Jesus first sent out his apostles, he said, "...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt 10:5-6) The missionary work was to first focus only on gathering the house of Israel. Then later, after Christ's death, Peter had the vision of the sheet with unclean animals (Acts 10) and realized the Lord had now opened the way for the gospel to go also to the Gentiles.

Christ also taught "But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. " (Matt 19:30)

In Christ's day it was First Jews (Israel), then Gentiles.

In the latter days it is First Gentiles, then Jews (Israel).

"42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last. " (1 Nephi 13:42)

In 1830, the prophet Joseph Smith (a descendant of the tribe of Joseph) restored the everlasting gospel in its fullness to the earth, just as it was in ancient times with apostles and prophets and priesthood. The comission was to go to the Gentile nations of the earth for the last time to seal up the testimony.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14)

Right now over 60,000 missionaries are teaching the gospel in all the Gentile nations of the earth. There are several definitions for the word "Gentile", but in this context it means "predominantly Christian nations". This has been going on for almost 200 years now. We live in a time when the "times of the Gentiles are about to be fulfilled".

"24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. "(Luke 21:24-27)

When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, it means the Lord feels like the Gentiles have had sufficient time to repent and accept His gospel. The Lord will then remove those missionaries from foreign lands.

"26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth. 27 And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;


29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another. " (Doctrine and Covenants 45:26-33)




When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, be prepared. This is a key indicator of what will follow. The Lord will speak in other ways.

"84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation.

86 Abide ye in the liberty wherewith ye are made free; entangle not yourselves in sin, but let your hands be clean, until the Lord comes.

87 For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree.

88 And after your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people.

89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.

90 And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.

91 And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people." (Doctrine & Covenants 88:84-91)


I believe we will see the times of the Gentiles fulfilled in the next few years. Please prepare yourselves.

Following the fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles, the gospel will go to the Jews or House of Israel.

"10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.


12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.


13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. " (3 Nephi 16:10-13)

[chrisc]

According to Joseph Smith's history, he claims to have seen God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

But, according to Doctrine & Covenants 84:22 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84/22#22) "no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live" if he doesn't have the higher priesthood (Melchizedek Priesthood). How could Joseph Smith have literally seen God the Father if he didn't have the Melchizedek Priesthood at such a young age? (in 1820).

Why don't you provide the complete scripture in D&C 84?
Here is another scripture from Joseph Smith:

"For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God." (D&C 67:11)

And Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible:

"No man hath seen God at any time, except them who believe. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (JST, 1 John 4:12)

And the scripture you quoted:

"20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.


23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory. "

I'm assuming you're trying to say the "this" in verse 22 refers to the authority of the priesthood in verse 21 in a desperate effort to discredit the prophet Joseph Smith. After carefully reading this it appears to me that "this" should refer to "the power of godliness" in verse 22. Meaning "the power of godliness" is needed to see the face of God. You could have just as easily picked "ordinances" in verse 21 to replace "this".

Then we read in the next verse how Moses taught the children of Israel to "santify" themselves so "they might behold the face of God". I don't believe the children of Isreal held the Melchizedek Priesthood at that time. Am I correct?

ADDRESS THE POST, LEAVE PERSONAL ATTACKS OUT OF THIS FORUM~ FIRE WATCH

[Fire Watch]

Civility. Respect. Address the post, do not attack the poster. Any violations will be dealt with.

This forum and the threads therein are not echo chambers..for any faith or religious belief system. If you start a thread, expect dissenting opinions. Dont get your underwear in a knot when someone disagrees with you..or with your disagreement.

Act like adults.

[mgifford]

Which has nothing to do with Joseph Smith and what he said in D&C 84 compared to what he claimed to have seen in 1820.

Sorry! You could put what I know about Joseph Smith or LDS in a match box. So may I be forgiven for ignorance?

[Ron Jon]

Why don't you provide the complete scripture in D&C 84?
Here is another scripture from Joseph Smith:

"For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God." (D&C 67:11)

And Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible:

"No man hath seen God at any time, except them who believe. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (JST, 1 John 4:12)

And the scripture you quoted:

"20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.


23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory. "

I'm assuming you're trying to say the "this" in verse 22 refers to the authority of the priesthood in verse 21 in a desperate effort to discredit the prophet Joseph Smith. After carefully reading this it appears to me that "this" should refer to "the power of godliness" in verse 22. Meaning "the power of godliness" is needed to see the face of God. You could have just as easily picked "ordinances" in verse 21 to replace "this".Verse 21 clearly says "without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood". So, whether they are the same thing or different, it is obvious Joseph Smith had NEITHER when he allegedly had his First Vision experience in 1820.

Then we read in the next verse how Moses taught the children of Israel to "santify" themselves so "they might behold the face of God". I don't believe the children of Isreal held the Melchizedek Priesthood at that time. Am I correct?According to the quoted text, it was taken from them at the same time Moses was taken (see verse 25 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84/25#25)).

The point is, if we are to believe Joseph Smith's "revelation" in D&C 84 then it casts a very long shadow of doubt on his alleged First Vision account. On the other hand, if the First Vision account is true, then it calls into question this particular "revelation". So, take your pick. They can't both be true as they contradict one another.

[chrisc]

Verse 21 clearly says "without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood". So, whether they are the same thing or different, it is obvious Joseph Smith had NEITHER when he allegedly had his First Vision experience in 1820.

You weren't listening very carefully in my last post.

"21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. "(D&C 84)

Take the pronoun "this" in verse 22 and match it to the closest option "the power of godliness" in verse 21. What is required to see the face of God and live? "the power of godliness"


According to the quoted text, it was taken from them at the same time Moses was taken (see verse 25 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84/25#25)).

The point is, if we are to believe Joseph Smith's "revelation" in D&C 84 then it casts a very long shadow of doubt on his alleged First Vision account. On the other hand, if the First Vision account is true, then it calls into question this particular "revelation". So, take your pick. They can't both be true as they contradict one another.

The real point is, you've taken something and twisted it completely out of context. Which anti-Mormon website or book did you get this one from? Doubt is the correct word for most of everything you say. Where is your faith?

There are some things the skeptic will never know.

[chrisc]

I think this is true enough, maybe.

However, Jesus left us very precise conditions before he would ever come back to this Earth, And those conditions have yet to come true.

So No, I don't believe anyone has seen Jesus.

If somebody really has seen and talked with Jesus then Jesus was wrong.

The next time somebody sees him, The whole world will.
What if your interpretation is wrong?

[Ron Jon]

You weren't listening very carefully in my last post.

"21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. "(D&C 84)

Take the pronoun "this" in verse 22 and match it to the closest option "the power of godliness" in verse 21. What is required to see the face of God and live? "the power of godliness"

The real point is, you've taken something and twisted it completely out of context. Which anti-Mormon website or book did you get this one from? Doubt is the correct word for most of everything you say. Where is your faith?

There are some things the skeptic will never know.Everything I write is from myself and if and when I do quote from a website, I always give credit to the original author. You'll find that I very rarely quote from anti-mormon websites. The best material comes from pro- or neutral websites, imho.

[HokieCougarVandal]

"21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. "(D&C 84)

Take the pronoun "this" in verse 22 and match it to the closest option "the power of godliness" in verse 21. What is required to see the face of God and live? "the power of godliness"

chris, RJ ... may I chime in here with another POV?

I believe you're both saying very similar things.

RJ is correct that man without this authority cannot see the face of God.

chris is correct that man cannot see God without the power of godliness.

However, it does not state that it is man that is required to posess this authority when the event happens. Since this authority begins and ends with the Father and Son, it is very conceivable that only They need to excercise this power in order for man to see God.

[Jacob_Rising]

What if your interpretation is wrong?It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something.

I see it as a cycle that must be performed and finished.

I believe Jesus was the sacrifice and he symbolized and had to fulfill exactly what the riturals, dates and objectives were according to the riturals of Passover.

I believe had had to continue symbolizing Pentacost by fulfilling the riturals, dates and objectives of Pentacost.

Likewise, as many things prove, he has to come and perform the dates, riturals and objectives of Sukkot.

The feast of Trumpets comes and the resurection and Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Moses, Elija will all be here to Tabernacle with the Messiah on the feast of Tabernacles.

There are 3 dates given that all Males must be present in Jerusalem and for good reason.

They are the 3 seperate times God comes and deals with mankind, and two of them have been fulfilled.

The third is the alpha and omega of the cycle, the feast of nations, the feast of Tabernacles.

This has not been fulfilled but when it is, Zechariah states that the whole world will celebrate it or be punished.

It becomes an important GLOBAL celebration because of the knowledge of the day being fulfilled.

I believe God has a plan, wrote the plan down and the plan is being folowed when God deals with mankind.

But, I could be wrong I suppose.

[Ron Jon]

chris, RJ ... may I chime in here with another POV?

I believe you're both saying very similar things.

RJ is correct that man without this authority cannot see the face of God.

chris is correct that man cannot see God without the power of godliness.

However, it does not state that it is man that is required to posess this authority when the event happens. Since this authority begins and ends with the Father and Son, it is very conceivable that only They need to excercise this power in order for man to see God.Thanks for your POV. I'll concede to you since it doesn't seem like Chris or I are going to see "eye to eye" on this one. However, assuming Chris is correct (big assumption on my part) did Joseph Smith have the "power of godliness" in order to see God the Father? I say he didn't, and I'm sure Chris would say he did.

Stalemate. Let's move on, shall we.

[Fire Watch]

The real point is, you've taken something and twisted it completely out of context. Which anti-Mormon website or book did you get this one from?

There are some things the skeptic will never know.

THIS will not fly. Someone can disagree with you and your religious views without be worried about being labeled an anti. Is that understood?

This is the ABSOLUTE LAST time I will tell you folks to address the post, not attack the poster.

If you cannot discuss and debate these topics without the snide, arrogant, ignorant remarks you need to find someplace else to spend your time.

[HokieCougarVandal]

Thanks for your POV. I'll concede to you since it doesn't seem like Chris or I are going to see "eye to eye" on this one. However, assuming Chris is correct (big assumption on my part) did Joseph Smith have the "power of godliness" in order to see God the Father? I say he didn't, and I'm sure Chris would say he did.

Stalemate. Let's move on, shall we.

IMPOV, I would agree with you RJ that Joseph (at the time of the first vision) did not posess the priesthood. However, as it is not explicitly stated that both parties need to posess the priesthood for a visitation from the Father and/or Son, the Father and Son have the option of exercising Their priesthood so that man may see Them at anytime They choose. I believe this option was utilized during Joseph's first vision.

[Ron Jon]

Why don't you provide the complete scripture in D&C 84?Because the question pertained to a specific verse within that chapter. Besides, the link I provided takes you to the complete chapter. Here is is again: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84/22#22

[Jacob_Rising]

Wow, I see I have a message that was deleted by Fire watch.

I don't remember what was written but my humble apologize goes to whoever I offended, I can be a real idiot sometimes.:redface:

I don't think I have ever had a post deleted before so it must have been bad.

If it was about Mormonism, I'de just like to say that I disagree is all.

I don't see Mormons any different than Christians.

I guess we all have differences of opinion when it comes to scripture and what scripture is really true because there is very many different bibles with different books.

I know I don't know all the truth and I apologize if I was arrogant or insulting in any way.

[Reeder]

I don't see Mormons any different than Christians.

:))

Classic!

[RayMan]

:))

Classic!

Keep in mind that JR doesn't believe Christians have it right. The slur in his post was, I am sure, made totally innocent of any malice.

We're just all wrong together.

[Jacob_Rising]

Keep in mind that JR doesn't believe Christians have it right. The slur in his post was, I am sure, made totally innocent of any malice.

We're just all wrong together.
No that's not it at all, maybe close but not it.

You are right that I don't view myself as a Christian, But allthough I believe different than Christians, I see myself no better or worse than Christians.

I believe we are all in the same boat together.

Having said that, I also believe there are people out there better than me.
Having said that, I believe that there are Christians way better than me.

I believe that there are people out there who have obtained a better reward than me and your average Christian.

[chrisc]

No that's not it at all, maybe close but not it.

You are right that I don't view myself as a Christian, But allthough I believe different than Christians, I see myself no better or worse than Christians.

I believe we are all in the same boat together.

Having said that, I also believe there are people out there better than me.
Having said that, I believe that there are Christians way better than me.

I believe that there are people out there who have obtained a better reward than me and your average Christian.

How can there be a better reward in heaven? Do you believe in different levels of reward in heaven? "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you"(John 14:2)

[Jacob_Rising]

How can there be a better reward in heaven? Do you believe in different levels of reward in heaven? "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you"(John 14:2)Jesus gave us clear references many times about the different levels of heaven.

He who keeps the law and teaches other men to do so will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

'' If you want to be perfect, sell all you have and give to the poor.''

'' Some 30 fold, some 60, some 100 fold.''

'' You will sit and judge the tribes of Israel'' NOT ALL PEOPLE WILL BE JUDGES.

The minuses, the talents, and just about every parable of Jesus show us different levels.

The 3 sections of the temple represent the 3 sections of heaven because the temple is a shadow of heaven.

ect, ect.

I have more.

[Ron Jon]

I have more.Please share. But, lets not forget that God did not make this world in vain. Rev. 21 talks about a new heaven and a new earth. This suggests, to me at least, that "heaven" (no matter how many "levels" it may have) is not our final destination.

[Jacob_Rising]

Please share. But, lets not forget that God did not make this world in vain. Rev. 21 talks about a new heaven and a new earth. This suggests, to me at least, that "heaven" (no matter how many "levels" it may have) is not our final destination.
Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates of the city, But outside are dogs.''

Revelation 22: 12 And behold I am coming quickly, and My Reward is with me, to give everyone ACCORDING to his work.''

Revelation 20: 4 And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years was over.BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE WHO TAKES PART IN THE FIRST RESURECTION. OVER SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. 144,000{pure virgins}

Revelations of the 7 churches showing overcomers and their rewards opposed to non overcomers.

1 Corinthians 3 13 Each one's work will become manifest for the day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire.

SOME WILL BURN AND DIE BUT YET BE SAVED, '' If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer a loss, but he himself will be saved.

Mathew 7 Two ways, two trees, two professions, two builders, two gates.

Mathew 7:13 Enter by the Narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

'' I am the way, the truth and the life''

This is the 3 sections of the temple leadintg to the greatest ZOE life in the holy of Holies.

Many good Christians have lived and died following Jesus, doing miracles in Jesus name and were good people but this doesn't get you into the highest platue of heaven.

'' But Jesus we did miracles in your name and taught you in the streets''

'' And some of the sons of the kingdom will come to the kingdom of heaven and recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but some of the sons of the kingdom will be asked to leave''

Because they did not obtain the ,'' Zoe'' life, they were not permitted to recline in the Messianic age with the patriarchs.

Ect, ect.

I have many more.

[Jacob_Rising]

Jesus told the desciples that they would judge the 12 tribes of Israel after they died and were resurected.

Does this mean that they just judge Jews?

Nope, You have to be considered Israel to even enter the kingdom of heaven.

It means that a very minority of people who truly sacrificed their lives will judge people after the wicked are killed and after the resurection.

Why are people being judged in the kingdom of heaven?

They are being placed according to their works.

[Reeder]

Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates of the city, But outside are dogs.''

Revelation 22: 12 And behold I am coming quickly, and My Reward is with me, to give everyone ACCORDING to his work.''

Revelation 20: 4 And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years was over.BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE WHO TAKES PART IN THE FIRST RESURECTION. OVER SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. 144,000{pure virgins}

Revelations of the 7 churches showing overcomers and their rewards opposed to non overcomers.

1 Corinthians 3 13 Each one's work will become manifest for the day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire.

SOME WILL BURN AND DIE BUT YET BE SAVED, '' If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer a loss, but he himself will be saved.

Mathew 7 Two ways, two trees, two professions, two builders, two gates.

Mathew 7:13 Enter by the Narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

'' I am the way, the truth and the life''

This is the 3 sections of the temple leadintg to the greatest ZOE life in the holy of Holies.

Many good Christians have lived and died following Jesus, doing miracles in Jesus name and were good people but this doesn't get you into the highest platue of heaven.

'' But Jesus we did miracles in your name and taught you in the streets''

'' And some of the sons of the kingdom will come to the kingdom of heaven and recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but some of the sons of the kingdom will be asked to leave''

Because they did not obtain the ,'' Zoe'' life, they were not permitted to recline in the Messianic age with the patriarchs.

Ect, ect.

I have many more.

Very, very interesting, Jacob. Would you mind expounding on what "ZOE" is, exactly?

[RayMan]

Very, very interesting, Jacob. Would you mind expounding on what "ZOE" is, exactly?

Some call it the "God Kind of Life."

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


Life is Zoe is both places

Same here.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

[Ron Jon]

In the New Testament
Matthew , Mark, Luke, John. Paul, James , and all the rest of them were called desciples while they were walking the earth with Jesus and learning from Him.

After the Jesus rose from the dead and had resurrected ,
the disciples were called Apostals.
The disciples and Apostals are one and the same people.First, it's spelled disciples not desciples and Apostles not Apostals. :rolleyes: You are repeating the Gospel accounts found in your Bible. Luke is not mentioned as one of Jesus' original disciples. Luke was a companion of Paul and his physician as well as historian.

Paul (Saul) was not a disciple of Jesus (at least not before Christ's death and resurrection).

[Jacob_Rising]

Ignorance. First, it's spelled disciples not desciples and Apostles not Apostals. :rolleyes:

That's just mean RJ , I don't know how to spell either.

That doesn't mean I'm ignorant, and it doesn't mean Gem is ignorant.

What's the deal RJ?

[Constantine the Great]

That's just mean RJ , I don't know how to spell either.

That doesn't mean I'm ignorant, and it doesn't mean Gem is ignorant.

What's the deal RJ?

the deal is in the word usage. All the Apostles were disciples, but not all the disciples were Apostles. Two different words, to convey two different meanings and attributes of those who followed and/or served Christ.

[Ron Jon]

That's just mean RJ , I don't know how to spell either.

That doesn't mean I'm ignorant, and it doesn't mean Gem is ignorant.

What's the deal RJ?Bad spelling only emphasizes a person's ignorance. If you don't want to appear ignorant, then I'd suggest using a spell-checker. Ignorance is a treatable condition but it requires some effort on the part of the patient. ;)

[mgifford]

Bad spelling only emphasizes a person's ignorance. If you don't want to appear ignorant, then I'd suggest using a spell-checker. Ignorance is a treatable condition but it requires some effort on the part of the patient. ;)

If most posters use Spell check, then it's difficult for anyone to measure their education or smartness. IOW, they all seem the same. That's good for me for sure.

[Ron Jon]

If most posters use Spell check, then it's difficult for anyone to measure their education or smartness. IOW, they all seem the same. That's good for me for sure.Education and "smartness" are not synonymous. In this day and age, I don't know why anyone wouldn't use the spell-check feature when posting to a public message board.

[chrisc]

Jesus gave us clear references many times about the different levels of heaven.

He who keeps the law and teaches other men to do so will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

'' If you want to be perfect, sell all you have and give to the poor.''

'' Some 30 fold, some 60, some 100 fold.''

'' You will sit and judge the tribes of Israel'' NOT ALL PEOPLE WILL BE JUDGES.

The minuses, the talents, and just about every parable of Jesus show us different levels.

The 3 sections of the temple represent the 3 sections of heaven because the temple is a shadow of heaven.

ect, ect.

I have more.

That is very interesting. Are you aware of the LDS teaching of three levels of heaven? Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial.

"40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: " (1 Cor. 15:40-42)

Also Paul saw the third heaven:
" I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. " (2 Cor. 12:2)

[noelle12]

Education and "smartness" are not synonymous. In this day and age, I don't know why anyone wouldn't use the spell-check feature when posting to a public message board.

I have found a topic where I agree 100% with Ron Jon.

[Ron Jon]

I have found a topic where I agree 100% with Ron Jon.See, patience prevails! :hug:

[noelle12]

See, patience prevails! :hug:

Actually, I remember agreeing with you on a thread about gambling. I wasn't participating, just lurking, but I nevertheless agreed with you.

[Ron Jon]

Actually, I remember agreeing with you on a thread about gambling. I wasn't participating, just lurking, but I nevertheless agreed with you.The more you agree with me, the easier it gets! :cool:

[noelle12]

The more you agree with me, the easier it gets! :cool:

So far it is about 150 to 2.

[Jacob_Rising]

Bad spelling only emphasizes a person's ignorance. If you don't want to appear ignorant, then I'd suggest using a spell-checker. Ignorance is a treatable condition but it requires some effort on the part of the patient. ;) Your just mean RJ, that's all.

[Jacob_Rising]

That is very interesting. Are you aware of the LDS teaching of three levels of heaven? Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial.

"40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: " (1 Cor. 15:40-42)

Also Paul saw the third heaven:
" I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. " (2 Cor. 12:2)That's interesting, I've never even considered those scriptures before, thanks.

[Ron Jon]

That is very interesting. Are you aware of the LDS teaching of three levels of heaven? Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial.

"40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: " (1 Cor. 15:40-42)

Also Paul saw the third heaven:
" I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. " (2 Cor. 12:2)Have you ever studied the original Greek or looked at an interlinear Greek/English Bible when looking up those verses? Celestial simply means Heavenly while Terrestrial means Earthly. Paul is not talking about different levels or degrees of Heaven. You'll notice he never uses the word "Telestial" as that is a word Joseph Smith simply made up by simply replacing the C in Celestial with the letter T (I presume from Terrestrial).

As far as Paul saying he knew a man who was caught up to the "third heaven". Again, you would have to know in what context Paul was speaking. The Bible does speak of 3 heavens. The first being the sky, where the birds soar, the second being outer space, where the sun, moon and stars are, and lastly, the third being where God and all the hosts of heaven abide. This is what Paul was referring to.

[Ron Jon]

That's just mean RJ , I don't know how to spell either.

That doesn't mean I'm ignorant, and it doesn't mean Gem is ignorant.

What's the deal RJ?I went ahead and edited my post by removing the word "ignorance" as it could be seen as if I were calling her "ignorant". However, my advice to Gem remains as it is sound advice. Again, if you (or anyone) has a problem with spelling, don't use that as an excuse. I was under the impression this message board came with an automatic spell checker. It does, at least on my computer, and whenever I see a word that is misspelled that word is underlined in little red dots. I right click on that word and it gives me a list of spelling corrections. It's a wonderful tool for anyone to use. Not trying to be "mean" here but if I came across that way, I apologize.

[Gidon]

That is very interesting. Are you aware of the LDS teaching of three levels of heaven? Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial.

"40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
Nothing mentioned in the Bible about telestial. I googled telestial and it pulled an Australian cell phone service.


41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

So the sun is different from the moon and the stars are all in different shapes and sizes. this is a literal, no allegory here


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: " (1 Cor. 15:40-42)

When we die to our sin we are raised up without sin


Also Paul saw the third heaven:
" I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. " (2 Cor. 12:2)

why didn't you show the next 2 verses after that one.

2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


maybe you didn't because they show that 3rd heaven IS paradise.

[Reeder]

Nothing mentioned in the Bible about telestial. I googled telestial and it pulled an Australian cell phone service.

:))



So the sun is different from the moon and the stars are all in different shapes and sizes. this is a literal, no allegory here

Is this a question?.....sarcasm........or is there an actual point to this comment?



When we die to our sin we are raised up without sin

Again, is this a question or a comment?



why didn't you show the next 2 verses after that one.

2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


maybe you didn't because they show that 3rd heaven IS paradise.



2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.




Either he is speaking of two different men here, or paradise and the third heaven are not the same.

[Gidon]

:))




Is this a question?.....sarcasm........or is there an actual point to this comment?




Again, is this a question or a comment?






2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.




Either he is speaking of two different men here, or paradise and the third heaven are not the same.

no sarcasm just comments :)

[Ron Jon]

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Either he is speaking of two different men here, or paradise and the third heaven are not the same.Not a very convincing "either/or" argument you're using here. Most Biblical scholars say Paul is simply speaking of himself in the third person. But, even if he were speaking of a totally different person (than himself) it would still only indicate that one person is the subject (not two as you insinuate). Paul is simply saying that this "man in Christ" was caught up to the third heaven and that "third heaven" was paradise (compared to earth). I suppose next you'll be telling us you know what these "unspeakable words, which is not lawful for a man to utter" actually are.

[mrcuff]

You'll notice he never uses the word "Telestial" as that is a word Joseph Smith simply made up by simply replacing the C in Celestial with the letter T (I presume from Terrestrial).


It is my understanding that the prefix of the word 'telestial' (tele) means 'far' and is the same prefix that we find in words such as television (sight from afar), telephone (sound from afar), telegraph, etc. It is the kingdom that is farthest from God.

[noelle12]

. . . I was under the impression this message board came with an automatic spell checker. It does, at least on my computer, and whenever I see a word that is misspelled that word is underlined in little red dots. I right click on that word and it gives me a list of spelling corrections. It's a wonderful tool for anyone to use. . .

Someone indicated to me that the spell checker is actually in your web browser if you use Firefox. I don't know if other web browsers have it.

[Ron Jon]

Someone indicated to me that the spell checker is actually in your web browser if you use Firefox. I don't know if other web browsers have it.One more reason to stop using Micro$oft IE. :razz:

[Ron Jon]

It is my understanding that the prefix of the word 'telestial' (tele) means 'far' and is the same prefix that we find in words such as television (sight from afar), telephone (sound from afar), telegraph, etc. It is the kingdom that is farthest from God.Well, that's an interesting theory. However, the word Celestial is an actual word. "c.1384, from L. cælestis "heavenly," from cælum "heaven, sky,"" And Terrestrial "1432, from L. terrestris "earthly," from terra "earth" (see terrain)." http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=celestial

When I did a search for Telestial at http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=telestial

I got: "No matching terms found." :think:

Keep in mind that these two words "celestial" and "terrestrial" come from old English and what we really should be doing is looking at the original language the New Testament was written in (Greek).

The original Greek word for Celestial is epouranios
The original Greek word for Terrestrial is epigeios

epouranios means "heavenly"
epigeios means "earthly"

Just out of curiosity, what is the Greek word for Telestial?

[Ron Jon]

A more understandable translation of 1 Corinthians 15:40 would be:
"There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:40;&version=77;

[Gem]

Bad spelling only emphasizes a person's ignorance. If you don't want to appear ignorant, then I'd suggest using a spell-checker. Ignorance is a treatable condition but it requires some effort on the part of the patient. ;)

Sooo, you calling me ignorant ?
Just because I spelled one word wrong ?
For your info I do not have a spell ck.
And I do not think you have any right to judge and call me ignorant because you know nothing about me.

So I take it you are a big well educated guy, are you ?
Well good for you and may God bless you even more for being so educated.

And thanks for saying what you think about me for miss spelling one word .

Now, that I have said all of that, I am going to tell you something else.

I am well in my seventy's.
I was not as lucky as you were to get a very good education.
What I have learned I have learned on my own by teaching my self the best I could. when I did not get to school very often because I had to help my mother out at home quit often .

I am a daughter of a Coalminer. I am one of seventeen children.
I was not lucky enough to get a good education like you have.

I have taught my self how to type and I do the best I can .
I am no expert at it but I do try. and yes sometimes I do miss spell some words , but it is not because I dont know how to spell, it is because I get in to big of a hurry.

[Ron Jon]

Sooo, you calling me ignorant ?
Just because I spelled one word wrong ?
For your info I do not have a spell ck.
And I do not think you have any right to judge and call me ignorant because you know nothing about me.

So I take it you are a big well educated guy, are you ?
Well good for you and may God bless you even more for being so educated.

And thanks for saying what you think about me for miss spelling one word .

Now, that I have said all of that, I am going to tell you something else.

I am well in my seventy's.
I was not as lucky as you were to get a very good education.
What I have learned I have learned on my own by teaching my self the best I could. when I did not get to school very often because I had to help my mother out at home quit often .

I am a daughter of a Coalminer. I am one of seventeen children.
I was not lucky enough to get a good education like you have.

I have taught my self how to type and I do the best I can .
I am no expert at it but I do try. and yes sometimes I do miss spell some words , but it is not because I dont know how to spell, it is because I get in to big of a hurry.I apologize if my reply came across as rude. I understand that typos can happen, especially if we get into a hurry while typing. Perhaps you didn't see my previous post were I edited my original post and removed the word "ignorant". See this link: http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=47267001&postcount=142

Anyways, there's no excuse so I won't make one up. Please accept my sincere apology.

[Reeder]

Not a very convincing "either/or" argument you're using here. Most Biblical scholars say Paul is simply speaking of himself in the third person. But, even if he were speaking of a totally different person (than himself) it would still only indicate that one person is the subject (not two as you insinuate). Paul is simply saying that this "man in Christ" was caught up to the third heaven and that "third heaven" was paradise (compared to earth). I suppose next you'll be telling us you know what these "unspeakable words, which is not lawful for a man to utter" actually are.

:confused:

[Jacob_Rising]

RJ has been around here for a long time and he's a very nice sweet guy, nicer than me.

He probably didn't think what he said was that bad when he wrote it.

[Ron Jon]

RJ has been around here for a long time and he's a very nice sweet guy, nicer than me.Except when I'm just plain mean. ;)

He probably didn't think what he said was that bad when he wrote it.James 1:19 "let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath;" I'm still working on the "slow to speak" part.

[RayMan]

Except when I'm just plain mean. ;) <snip>

There is that. :whistle:

[RayMan]

<snip>
I am well in my seventy's.
I was not as lucky as you were to get a very good education.
What I have learned I have learned on my own by teaching my self the best I could. when I did not get to school very often because I had to help my mother out at home quit often .
<snip>

You're in your 70s? No way I would have thought that. Kudos on being internet savvy and keeping your mind sharp putting young punks like Ron in their place! :clap:

[Jacob_Rising]

Except when I'm just plain mean. ;)
James 1:19 "let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath;" I'm still working on the "slow to speak" part.Well, That's my problem, speaking too fast.

Half the time I write something and 15 min later I come back and try to delete it and then it's too dang late.

[Gem]

You're in your 70s? No way I would have thought that. Kudos on being internet savvy and keeping your mind sharp putting young punks like Ron in their place! :clap:

Yes I am Ray.
I do try to control my tongue even when I am typing.
I could have been pretty nasty to him, but thats not me.

Lets just say he should be glad he wasn't standing in front of me when he said what he did. :razz:

[Ron Jon]

Yes I am Ray.
I do try to control my tongue even when I am typing.
I could have been pretty nasty to him, but thats not me.

Lets just say he should be glad he wasn't standing in front of me when he said what he did. :razz:For those who don't know, the definition of ignorance is showing a lack of knowledge. I suppose some might interpret this to mean a lack of intelligence. I did not mean you were not intelligent, only that you lacked correct knowledge on that specific subject. If it makes you feel better, I am ignorant of your Oneness Pentecostal beliefs. Apparently my apology wasn't good enough for you. Well, my conscious is clear.

[Gem]

For those who don't know, the definition of ignorance is showing a lack of knowledge. I suppose some might interpret this to mean a lack of intelligence. I did not mean you were not intelligent, only that you lacked correct knowledge on that specific subject. If it makes you feel better, I am ignorant of your Oneness Pentecostal beliefs. Apparently my apology wasn't good enough for you. Well, my conscious is clear.

Sorry, I didn't see the thread of your apology.
And your apology is accepted. :razz:

[terri910]

Sorry, I didn't see the thread of your apology.
And your apology is accepted. :razz:
Gem....you are.....a gem!

[RayMan]

Yes I am Ray.
I do try to control my tongue even when I am typing.
I could have been pretty nasty to him, but thats not me.

Lets just say he should be glad he wasn't standing in front of me when he said what he did. :razz:

I am just teasing as concerns Ron. He is a great guy and one of my favorite folk around here.

[Jacob_Rising]

Yes I am Ray.
I do try to control my tongue even when I am typing.
I could have been pretty nasty to him, but thats not me.

Lets just say he should be glad he wasn't standing in front of me when he said what he did. :razz:Now see Rayman, This kind of woman turns me on, reminds me of my exwife.

If you messed with our house or family, it wasn't me you should be afraid of.

Dang I like women like that.

I'm gonna keep my one good eye on RJ and try to protect him cause he's messin with Dynomite.

What ya think Rayman?

We gotta watch out for our buddy RJ, I heard all the woman throw rocks at him anyways.

That's what I heard.:(( poor RJ

[RayMan]

I pity the guy. It's too bad too. He's actually a stand up kind of guy. Hope you and your family are doing well Jacob. Always a pleasure to talk to you.

[Jacob_Rising]

I pity the guy. It's too bad too. He's actually a stand up kind of guy. Hope you and your family are doing well Jacob. Always a pleasure to talk to you.
Man I wished you lived around me Rayman, You are such a funny sweet guy, and I mean that in a non Homosexual way.:razz:

I wouldn't want you to think I was coming on to you but can we have a drink some time?:mrgreen: awe Man I havn't laghed in so long.

[chrisc]

Have you ever studied the original Greek or looked at an interlinear Greek/English Bible when looking up those verses? Celestial simply means Heavenly while Terrestrial means Earthly. Paul is not talking about different levels or degrees of Heaven. You'll notice he never uses the word "Telestial" as that is a word Joseph Smith simply made up by simply replacing the C in Celestial with the letter T (I presume from Terrestrial).
Paul is talking about three different types of bodies in the resurrection. Notice the entire context of the chapter regarding the resurrection.

Also notice the question asked just 5 verses prior, "35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" (1 Cor. 15:35)

Answer: "40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:" (1 Cor. 15:40-42)

Also note verse 39: "39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. "

It seems pretty clear to me. There are different bodies in the resurrection.

Then you suggest their are only two glories -- the Celestial and Terrestrial (vs 40). But in verse 41 we see Paul then mentions three different glories. Each is compared to the sun, moon and stars. The Celestial is the sun, the Terrestrial is the moon, which glory goes with the stars? Telestial. Modern revelation has it's benefits.

Also in verse 41 "one star differeth from another star in glory" showing that even within these three glories there are various levels of glory in the resurrection.

So according to your definition of Celestial and Terrestrial, who will get a "heavenly" resurrection and who will get an "earthly" resurrection? It doesn't really make sense this way.



As far as Paul saying he knew a man who was caught up to the "third heaven". Again, you would have to know in what context Paul was speaking. The Bible does speak of 3 heavens. The first being the sky, where the birds soar, the second being outer space, where the sun, moon and stars are, and lastly, the third being where God and all the hosts of heaven abide. This is what Paul was referring to.

Please provide where the Bible explains these 3 heavens to be as you described. Or is it eisegesis?:razz:

Here is another scripture we can throw into the mix:

"2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. " (St John 14:2)

Joseph Smith taught, “My text is on the resurrection of the dead, which you will find in the 14th chapter of John—‘In my Father's house are many mansions.’ It should be—‘In my Father's kingdom are many kingdoms,’ in order that ye may be heirs of God and joint-heirs with me. I do not believe the Methodist doctrine of sending honest men and noble-minded men to hell, along with the murderer and the adulterer…There are mansions for those who obey a celestial law, and there are other mansions for those who come short of the law, every man in his own order.” (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1977], 157)

Spencer W. Kimball said,
“The age-old concept of heaven and hell is erroneous. It is not true that there is but one dividing line between heaven and hell and that all who barely fail to reach heaven will be doomed to a fire and brimstone hell, and conversely untrue, that all who are just a little better than the condemned ones will go to a common heaven, there equally to play harps or to sing praises eternally. This is a false concept. The scriptures have made it clear that every soul will pay penalties for evil deeds and receive rewards for good deeds and all will be judged according to their works. They will not be put into two categories but in as many as there are individuals who have different degrees of accomplishment and performance, and this is just. Think for one moment how unjust it would be to put all law-breakers-the murderer, adulterer, thief, and car-parking violator-in the same penitentiary with the same punishments, deprivations, and the same period to serve; how unjust to put in the same world [of] development and happiness and glory the person who has merely confessed the name of Christ with all those who not only confessed it but lived his every commandment and perfected their lives and became godlike in all their attributes. God is just.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 47.)

[chrisc]

Nothing mentioned in the Bible about telestial. I googled telestial and it pulled an Australian cell phone service.

And all this time I thought God worked through Google!:razz:


So the sun is different from the moon and the stars are all in different shapes and sizes. this is a literal, no allegory here
I guess you didn't read the verse after that. It says, "So also is the resurrection of the dead." Why is Paul comparing the glory of the sun, moon and stars to the resurrection? Think! He's not just saying they have pretty shapes.


why didn't you show the next 2 verses after that one.

2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


maybe you didn't because they show that 3rd heaven IS paradise.

I believe Paul was speaking of himself. He couldn't tell if his spirit was in or out of his body with this heavenly experience. Please note that Paul uses the word "And" in verse 3 as mentioned by Reeder. Why the need to mention the third heaven and paradise seperately?

[chrisc]

Not a very convincing "either/or" argument you're using here. Most Biblical scholars say Paul is simply speaking of himself in the third person. But, even if he were speaking of a totally different person (than himself) it would still only indicate that one person is the subject (not two as you insinuate). Paul is simply saying that this "man in Christ" was caught up to the third heaven and that "third heaven" was paradise (compared to earth). I suppose next you'll be telling us you know what these "unspeakable words, which is not lawful for a man to utter" actually are.

Paul IS speaking of himself in this verse. However, why mention the third heaven and paradise in two seperate statements seperated by "AND"?

Paradise and heaven are NOT the same place. Paradise is here on this earth in the Spirit World. Heaven is the residence of God and His angels after the resurrection and is far away from this earth.

When Christ was with the thief on the cross He said to the thief, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) He said "Today" he would be with the theif in paradise.

Then three days later Jesus rose from the tomb and appeared to Mary and said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. " (John 20:17)

Jesus was in paradise, but had not yet ascended to His Father? How can this be? Paradise and heaven are different places.

[CMike11]

Man I wished you lived around me Rayman, You are such a funny sweet guy, and I mean that in a non Homosexual way.:razz:

I wouldn't want you to think I was coming on to you but can we have a drink some time?:mrgreen: awe Man I havn't laghed in so long.

I think Rayman is a very nice guy too.

[Mike Griffith]

Originally Posted by Ron Jon: Not a very convincing "either/or" argument you're using here. Most Biblical scholars say Paul is simply speaking of himself in the third person. But, even if he were speaking of a totally different person (than himself) it would still only indicate that one person is the subject (not two as you insinuate). Paul is simply saying that this "man in Christ" was caught up to the third heaven and that "third heaven" was paradise (compared to earth). I suppose next you'll be telling us you know what these "unspeakable words, which is not lawful for a man to utter" actually are.

The third heaven was not paradise. Several early Christian sources--including Papias, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Chrysostom--talk about three levels of heaven. Ancient Hebrew documents also talk about different degrees of glory in heaven.

If Paul saw the "third heaven," then there must be a "first and second" heaven as well. That's why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that there will be three types of glory in the resurrection--one that compares to the sun, another to the moon, and another to the stars:

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:40-42, NIV)

[Ron Jon]

Paul is talking about three different types of bodies in the resurrection. Notice the entire context of the chapter regarding the resurrection.

Also notice the question asked just 5 verses prior, "35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" (1 Cor. 15:35)

Answer: "40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:" (1 Cor. 15:40-42)

Also note verse 39: "39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. "I agree "the entire context of the chapter regarding the resurrection."

Then you suggest their are only two glories -- the Celestial and Terrestrial (vs 40).Umm, no I didn't. When Paul talks about the different "glories" of the "sun, moon and stars" he is referring to the Celestial (Heavenly) "bodies". I suppose we should define the word. In this context Paul is talking about "Astronomy. an object in space, as a planet or star."

And, when he is talking about Terrestrial "bodies" he mentions "flesh of men," "flesh of beasts," "fishes," and "birds". It's really not that difficult to understand what he was saying. Again, he is not talking about some imaginary 3 levels (or kingdoms) in Heaven. :rolleyes:

But in verse 41 we see Paul then mentions three different glories. Each is compared to the sun, moon and stars. The Celestial is the sun, the Terrestrial is the moon, which glory goes with the stars? Telestial. Modern revelation has it's benefits.Wrong, wrong, wrong. The word Celestial means Heavenly. If I were to give examples of "heavenly bodies" and speak of their "glories" or "brightness" or "illumination" I would obviously talk about the "sun," and "moon," and "stars" since each of these different types of "celestial bodies" differs in glory (brightness).
So according to your definition of Celestial and Terrestrial, who will get a "heavenly" resurrection and who will get an "earthly" resurrection? It doesn't really make sense this way.It doesn't "make sense" because you completely twisted what I said. Your version of what I said is what doesn't make any sense. Congratulations on beating up a poor defenseless straw-man. It never had a chance! :))

Please provide where the Bible explains these 3 heavens to be as you described. Or is it eisegesis?There are too many verses for me to quote all of them here. But let me give you one example and provide a link so you can see the multitude of other verses which support what I said. "I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled." Jeremiah 4:25

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=birds%20heavens&version1=50&searchtype=all

Now, where do these birds fly? In heaven with God? No, obviously, these verses are speaking of birds who fly in our atmosphere (the heavens). This is the first level of heavens.

The second level of heavens would be what we call "outer space" or the universe. "When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained," Psalm 8:3 And also: "The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness." Joel 2:10 And finally, "For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine." Isaiah 13:10

The third level of heavens would be in the very presence of God, like if you were standing before the throne of God.

2 Cor. 12:1-4

"The LORD is in His holy temple,The LORD’s throne is in heaven;" Psalm 11:4

"The LORD has established His throne in heaven,And His kingdom rules over all." Psalm 103:19

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald."
Revelation 4:1-3

Hopefully, this will suffice. But, if you need me to draw you a picture, you might find the following chart helpful.
http://www.preservedwords.com/images/lheavens.gif

Here is another scripture we can throw into the mix:

"2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. " (St John 14:2)Yes, he said MANY, not just 3. So, you cannot use this verse to support your belief in a 3 Tiered heaven where only worthy Mormon Temple-Recommend participants (who were married in the LDS temples) get to go to the Celestial kingdom and other less worthy people who were not married in the LDS temple get to go to the Terrestrial kingdom and those even more unworthy people who were not Mormon go to the Telestial kingdom.

[Mikko]

You are correct, Paul was of Jewish decent. Although he and his parents were Roman citizens.
One could be both Jewish and a Roman citizen.:)

[Mikko]

The third heaven was not paradise. Several early Christian sources--including Papias, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Chrysostom--talk about three levels of heaven. Ancient Hebrew documents also talk about different degrees of glory in heaven.

If Paul saw the "third heaven," then there must be a "first and second" heaven as well. That's why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that there will be three types of glory in the resurrection--one that compares to the sun, another to the moon, and another to the stars:

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:40-42, NIV)
Speculation.:)

[Ron Jon]

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:40-42, NIV)[/INDENT]Again, the only thing Paul is talking about is the resurrection of the body. He is not talking about a 3 tiered heaven.

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

[here Paul is talking about the earthly (terrestrial) bodies]
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

[here Paul is talking about the heavenly (celestial) bodies]
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

(notice Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead NOT HEAVEN)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

I honestly don't see how ANYONE could misinterpret these verses and think they are talking about a 3-Tiered Heaven! :confused:

[Jacob_Rising]

Paul is talking about three different types of bodies in the resurrection. Notice the entire context of the chapter regarding the resurrection.

[/I]47.)I believe there are 3 different bodies right now.

'' Let us make man in our image''

What is the image of God when you think about him?

The Father, the son and the Holy spirit is what I see, Likewise mankind has these 3 images in theory.

Adam would be from the father and is the spiritual covering of Eve the flesh.

The most beatiful creature in the garden was the soul and mind of man in my opinion.

All 3 would represent 1 person.

I think the sons of Adam and Noah, and Jacob also reflect 3 individuals.

Cain, Able fought within themselves and Seth was the outcome.

Esau and Jacob fought within themselves and Israel was the outcome.

Judah and Ephraim fight within thmselves and Benjamin is the outcome.

I believe Cain really was the keeper of Able, as flesh houses the spirit.

The original plan was that the spirit housed the flesh as Adam was the covering of Eve{Rib}.

So Jesus came in the flesh as Eve and Jesus was tempted in the flesh but this time Eve didn't eat the apple.

So it reversed the positions as it was in the beginning.

Jesus rose as the New Adam which was now the spiritual covering of his flesh.

1 Peter 3:4 'But let it be the hidden man of the heart, with the incorruptible ornament of a gentile and quiet spirit.''

The hidden man in the heart was Adam until Jesus brought out the hidden man and he was no longer hidden, in my opinion.

[Gem]

I am just teasing as concerns Ron. He is a great guy and one of my favorite folk around here.

He may be, but no need in calling anyone ignorant if you don't know nothing about that person. miss spelling something now and then don't mean you are ignorant. Ray I raised 3 boys and 1 girl.. When they would get out of line with me I made them have prayer with me for 2 weeks everynight. They learned what respect was for their mother and father. I never had to use any force that would hurt them, but if I had to I would have. Their father was a supervisor on his job, he also had swing shift a lot. so his responsibilities to our kids fell on me when he was not at home. I made sure my kids stayed in church and did what was right. They turned out to be men I am very proud of now. they also are teaching their own children in the way they were taught . Teach the child in the way it should go and it will not turn from it. The bible say's something like that I believe . and thats what I did.

[terri910]

He may be, but no need in calling anyone ignorant if you don't know nothing about that person. miss spelling something now and then don't mean you are ignorant. Ray I raised 3 boys and 1 girl.. When they would get out of line with me I made them have prayer with me for 2 weeks everynight. They learned what respect was for their mother and father. I never had to use any force that would hurt them, but if I had to I would have. Their father was a supervisor on his job, he also had swing shift a lot. so his responsibilities to our kids fell on me when he was not at home. I made sure my kids stayed in church and did what was right. They turned out to be men I am very proud of now. they also are teaching their own children in the way they were taught . Teach the child in the way it should go and it will not turn from it. The bible say's something like that I believe . and thats what I did.
Gem, I hope you saw Ron's sincere apology.

[Gem]

Now see Rayman, This kind of woman turns me on, reminds me of my exwife.

If you messed with our house or family, it wasn't me you should be afraid of.

Dang I like women like that.

I'm gonna keep my one good eye on RJ and try to protect him cause he's messin with Dynomite.

What ya think Rayman?

We gotta watch out for our buddy RJ, I heard all the woman throw rocks at him anyways.

That's what I heard.:(( poor RJ

Wow.

[Gem]

Gem....you are.....a gem!

Hi Terri . thanks I like you to Terri. :clap:

[Gem]

Gem, I hope you saw Ron's sincere apology.

Yes Terri I did. thanks.

Do you think he was sincere ? :razz:

[terri910]

Yes Terri I did. thanks.

Do you think he was sincere ? :razz:
Yes, I do. :hug:

[Ron Jon]

Yes Terri I did. thanks.

Do you think he was sincere ? :razz:I can tell you're going to be trouble. ;)

[terri910]

I can tell you're going to be trouble. ;)
I'm thinking Gem can be a spark plug when she wants to!

But in my experience spark plugs can be pretty necessary....*s*

[Gem]

I can tell you're going to be trouble. ;)

Lol, you think so . :razz:

[Gem]

I'm thinking Gem can be a spark plug when she wants to!

But in my experience spark plugs can be pretty necessary....*s*

Amen to that Terri . :clap:

[Reeder]

Bump.....because this is an interesting topic to me, and I'm interested in what others believe so far as "Prophets" go.