Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven?

[hben]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

[orbitaldecay]

Helaman 5:9 in the Book of Mormon
O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.

[BillBrown]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

He meant "that is, if you don't follow some other religion. If you do, you're okay".

You'll get that answer from several people, although worded differently;)

[ROBERTENEAL]

Who else in qualified for the ministry of reconciliation? Colossians 1:16-20

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

[smyrna]

Who else in qualified for the ministry of reconciliation? Colossians 1:16-20

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Next question.

[Mobulis]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

Of course he isn't.

[BillyBobUSA]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

So how was Abraham saved?

[BillyBobUSA]

He meant "that is, if you don't follow some other religion. If you do, you're okay".

You'll get that answer from several people, although worded differently;)

What I think he means is that if a person is going to brought into Heaven they will be forgiven of all their sins first and that can only occur through the blood of Jesus Christ, whether you know of Him or not.

Just like Abraham.

[ralittlefield]

Yes, I believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven. I believe that is God's plan, and God wants us to believe/have faith in Him. It has alway been that way, even before Jesus death. God wants us to follow His plan.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven?

Nope.

[smyrna]

So how was Abraham saved?

The Bible states that Abraham's righteousness was reckoned to him by God because he believed in what God told him. Also, when he comes from saving his nephew Lot, he meets with the King of Salem(Melchizedek). This is where the first Hebrew and the stated High Priest of God (Christ incarnation) come together and Abraham was blessed.
Genesis 14:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=14&verse=18&version=48&context=verse)
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of the Most High God.

Then David again says that Christ is Lord and High Priest out of the order of Melchizedek in this Psalm
Psalm 110 (21st Century King James Version)


Psalm 110

1The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool."

2The LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion. Rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies!

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, Thou hast the dew of Thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn and will not repent: "Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek."

Then Paul explains it further in the NT

Hebrews 5:3-6 (21st Century King James Version)



3And by reason hereof, he ought, both for the people and also for himself, to make offering for sins.

4And no man taketh this honor unto himself, except he that is called by God, as was Aaron.

5So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made a high priest, but He that said unto Him, "Thou art My Son; today have I begotten Thee."
6And He saith also in another place, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

[5thIDSoldier]

Nope.

Well, that explains a lot.

[hben]

Well, that explains a lot.

Uhhh huhhh.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Well, that explains a lot.

Yup.

[5thIDSoldier]

Yup.

Good luck with that.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Good luck with that.

Works quite well for me. :cool:

[hben]

Works quite well for me. :cool:

I thought you believed in Christ. Did I miss something?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Did I miss something?

Nope.

[hben]

Nope.

So you aren't a believer?

[Koushi Shinigami]

So you aren't a believer?

That's not what I said.

[hben]

That's not what I said.

:wall: You really don't say much, do you?

[Koushi Shinigami]

:wall: You really don't say much, do you?

:cool:

[Mikko]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?
1. There's no proof that he actually said that.
2. If he said that, he could have meant that the Christ principle in the individual is the way to Heaven.
3. Union with God is the way to heaven.
:)

[hben]

1. There's no proof that he actually said that.
2. If he said that, he could have meant that the Christ principle in the individual is the way to Heaven.
3. Union with God is the way to heaven.
:)

The Christ priniple??? What is that???

[Koushi Shinigami]

Are you darting your eyes and crossing your tease?

:whistle:

[hben]

Are you darting your eyes and crossing your tease?

He gives you just enough info to start a good argument. It is supported by the passage that says, "Do unto others whatever it takes to stir them up."

[Koushi Shinigami]

Fine.

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven?


No.



If not, then what other way is there?

Some ways to heaven without believing in Jesus:
Be an aborted fetus
Be a child who dies before hearing of Jesus
Be a child who dies before being able to accept Jesus
Be a person of diminished mental capablitiy to be unable to make a choice to accept Jesus
Be a practicing Jew
Live in an area or time that does not have christian influences


What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

He meant 'I am the example of how you should live your life (the way). That you can trust this example (the truth). That I am the beacon shining in the dark to show you the way by my example (the life).'

[Reeder]

Fine.




No.





Some ways to heaven without believing in Jesus:
Be an aborted fetus
Be a child who dies before hearing of Jesus
Be a child who dies before being able to accept Jesus
Be a person of diminished mental capablitiy to be unable to make a choice to accept Jesus
Be a practicing Jew
Live in an area or time that does not have christian influences




He meant 'I am the example of how you should live your life (the way). That you can trust this example (the truth). That I am the beacon shining in the dark to show you the way by my example (the life).'

Actually, Koushi, I agree with you on almost every point, except that I believe (and perhaps you do as well??) that it is because of Christ's atonement that allows such individuals to be saved - the tender mercies of Christ.

From the Doctrine and Covanents:

Section 137: 7-10

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.



And from the Book of Mormon

Moroni 8: 22

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

[hben]

Some ways to heaven without believing in Jesus:
Be an aborted fetus
Be a child who dies before hearing of Jesus
Be a child who dies before being able to accept Jesus
Be a person of diminished mental capablitiy to be unable to make a choice to accept Jesus
Be a practicing Jew
Live in an area or time that does not have christian influences

I agree that everyone in your list will be in heaven other than the last two, but even then, Jesus is the only way they will get there.

As for the last two, they will have to go through Jesus as well. If not, then the rest of us could get in through the back door, and that just isn't what the Bible teaches. The blood over the door kept death away for the Hebrews, and it still does for the believers.

He meant 'I am the example of how you should live your life (the way). That you can trust this example (the truth). That I am the beacon shining in the dark to show you the way by my example (the life).'

If He was only a good example for us to follow, then the cross would not have been needed for salvation. He was a good example, but He was also the way, the truth and the life...the only door to God and heaven.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I agree that everyone in your list will be in heaven other than the last two, but even then, Jesus is the only way they will get there.


Then so much for God's covenants.




If He was only a good example for us to follow, then the cross would not have been needed for salvation. He was a good example, but He was also the way, the truth and the life...the only door to God and heaven.

:eh: He did both. Works AND salvation. The fact that he was here to show us how to live takes nothing away from the sacrifice he made.

In the context of that passage that you lifted the scripture from, Jesus was answering the question "How do we know the way?". The response "I've shown you the way" makes more contextual sense to me than "Believe in me or burn in hell".

Actually, I picture the exchange as more of:

'How do we get there?'

'Oy!! Vey!! I just spent the last !!!!THREE YEARS!!!! SHOWING you the way. Now it's time for me to go get your place ready and you're telling me you don't know the way!??!?!?! Do what I've been doing for the last three years and you'll get there.'

[hben]

Then so much for God's covenants.

:eh: He did both. Works AND salvation. The fact that he was here to show us how to live takes nothing away from the sacrifice he made.

In the context of that passage that you lifted the scripture from, Jesus was answering the question "How do we know the way?". The response "I've shown you the way" makes more contextual sense to me than "Believe in me or burn in hell".

Actually, I picture the exchange as more of:

'How do we get there?'

'Oy!! Vey!! I just spent the last !!!!THREE YEARS!!!! SHOWING you the way. Now it's time for me to go get your place ready and you're telling me you don't know the way!??!?!?! Do what I've been doing for the last three years and you'll get there.'

But according to other passages, we will either get there because we believe in Him and His death, burial and resurrection or we won't get there at all. Following His example is what we do after He has saved us simply because of our love for Him rather than our attempt to earn our way to heaven.

[Koushi Shinigami]

But according to other passages, we will either get there because we believe in Him and His death, burial and resurrection or we won't get there at all.

That's how one becomes a Christian. I do not believe christianity holds the only key to Heaven. What ELSE would the founding document of christianity say?


Following His example is what we do after He has saved us simply because of our love for Him rather than our attempt to earn our way to heaven.


I'm not aware of any religion that says someone can earn their way to Heaven.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I agree that everyone in your list will be in heaven other than the last two


If you agree with that, then you are agreeing that knowledge of or a belief in Jesus is not necessary for entry into heaven. The only thing required for humanity is that Jesus existed and did what he did.

[hben]

That's how one becomes a Christian. I do not believe christianity holds the only key to Heaven. What ELSE would the founding document of christianity say?

I'm not aware of any religion that says someone can earn their way to Heaven.

If simple trust in Jesus is not the only way, then what other way could there be to gain a ticket to heaven?

[Reeder]

If simple trust in Jesus is not the only way, then what other way could there be to gain a ticket to heaven?

Innocence

[hben]

If you agree with that, then you are agreeing that knowledge of or a belief in Jesus is not necessary for entry into heaven. The only thing required for humanity is that Jesus existed and did what he did.

Then all that the Bible says about faith or belief in Christ would be null and void, if that was the case.

[Koushi Shinigami]

If simple trust in Jesus is not the only way, then what other way could there be to gain a ticket to heaven?




if not, then what other way is there?

some ways to heaven without believing in jesus:
Be an aborted fetus
be a child who dies before hearing of jesus
be a child who dies before being able to accept jesus
be a person of diminished mental capablitiy to be unable to make a choice to accept jesus
be a practicing jew
live in an area or time that does not have christian influences


i agree that everyone in your list will be in heaven other than the last two, but even then, jesus is the only way they will get there.



:cool:

[hben]

:cool:

I agree. :cool:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Then all that the Bible says about faith or belief in Christ would be null and void, if that was the case.

You agreed with my list. And the people on that list for the most part have no ability to believe in anything, including Jesus.

And actually, no. Only SOME of what they Bible says would be null and void.

Sheesh. With you evagelicals, it's always all or nothing. :rolleyes:

[Koushi Shinigami]

I agree. :cool:

then that's settled.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Innocence

:clap:

[hben]

Innocence

That works until you come across a passage that says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Who is innocent other than the children who are either too young or mentally handicapped to understand the gospel?

[Koushi Shinigami]

That works until you come across a passage that says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Who is innocent other than the children who are either too young or mentally handicapped to understand the gospel?

Only God knows.

[CLCangel]

Look at it this way, if you believe you have everything to gain but if you dont you have everything to lose.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Look at it this way, if you believe you have everything to gain but if you dont you have everything to lose.

That's referred to as Pascal's wager. And it's a very poor reason to believe.

[CLCangel]

Maybe so but its a start for someone who has no faith at all.

[CLCangel]

i AGREE WITH HBEN

[CLCangel]

tELL ME SOMETHING WHAT PARTICULAR FAITH ARE YOU THAT YOU QUESTION CHRISTIANITY SO MUCH? CMON LETS TALK.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Press your caps lock key and I'll consider it.

[Marleysdaddy]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven?
no (assuming there is a heaven)
If not, then what other way is there?
many
What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?
Someone chose to translate 'ego eimi' as 'I am (as in him, Jesus, the person) in John 14:6. But there are many other places in the New Testament where 'ego eimi' is translated as 'I AM' (as in the existential name of god, burning bush, all that jazz)...in fact, those other verses, where 'ego eimi' is translated as the big 'I AM' are some of the verses Christians use to defend the godhood of Jesus.

Why isn't John 14:6 translated as "I AM (read: god) is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through I AM (god)"? :think:

[Marleysdaddy]

Press your caps lock key and I'll consider it.

:))

It didn't take you long to make someone shout (as usual)...:razz:

[Koushi Shinigami]

:))

It didn't take you long to make someone shout (as usual)...:razz:

It's a gift. :cool: :angel:

[cmorlan]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

I believe that Jesus is the only one who can save me and he is my only way to salvation. he is the new covenant.

[cmorlan]

So how was Abraham saved?


Jesus is the only way to the father for the new covariant. The Jews before Christ fall under the covenant of moses. Abraham would be covered under Mosaic covanant.

[Reeder]

That works until you come across a passage that says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Who is innocent other than the children who are either too young or mentally handicapped to understand the gospel?

Romans 7: 7-9

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


All those who "know not the law" cannot sin against it. They are alive in Christ.


From the Doctrine and Covanents:

Section 137: 7-10

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.



And from the Book of Mormon

Moroni 8: 22

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—






"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall my word be established."


Lets see.......the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covanents...............1,2,3.......Ayup - I guess its been established! :D

[Reeder]

Press your caps lock key and I'll consider it.

:))

[hben]

:))

Reeder, would you say that Koushi is a rude and crude negotiator?

[Reeder]

Reeder, would you say that Koushi is a rude and crude negotiator?

I'd say droll and mirthful.

[Semi-Sweet]

Jesus is the only way to the father for the new covariant. The Jews before Christ fall under the covenant of moses. Abraham would be covered under Mosaic covanant.

God has revealed Himself as a covenant-making personality. He said to Noah and his sons, "I will establish my covenant with you" Genesis 9:11.

He said to Abraham, "I will make my covenant between me and thee" Genesis 17:2.

There are two covenants in history that are of significance because of their relationship to Christ. The first of these two covenants was made with the twelve tribes of Israel, and it constituted them into a nation, it was written on tablets of stone.

The new covenant is not written with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. It is not written on tablets of stone or other external material but upon the tablets of the heart. . .2 Cor. 3:3. . . . "clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart."

The new covenant is not one of a written code, but of the Spirit.
.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'd say droll and mirthful.

Why, thankyou. :cool:

[Reeder]

Why, thankyou. :cool:

Fo sho

[Gem]

no (assuming there is a heaven)

many

Someone chose to translate 'ego eimi' as 'I am (as in him, Jesus, the person) in John 14:6. But there are many other places in the New Testament where 'ego eimi' is translated as 'I AM' (as in the existential name of god, burning bush, all that jazz)...in fact, those other verses, where 'ego eimi' is translated as the big 'I AM' are some of the verses Christians use to defend the godhood of Jesus.

Why isn't John 14:6 translated as "I AM (read: god) is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through I AM (god)"? :think:

Let me see if I can understand what you are saying here.

Ok, So the Catholics clame to be the first church .
The Catholics got the first bible, and the Catholics bible is the only one thats right.

Why, because the scrolls was writen by the Hebrews, translated by the Greeks, the Latins. which the Catholics have the real bible.

So the bible the Christians use The King James bible and others are all mistranslated. So, we christians are following the wrong bible because it was mistranslated.

Is this what you are basically saying.?

So going by this, our bibles is not right so we are being mislead,
so basicailly, we are not Christians because of this. RIGHT ?

SO, going by this, by our bibles being wrong, causeing a H --- of a lot of people , which have passed on years and years ago, and all christians today who do not go by the Catholic bible, are still sinners, because of their bibles being mistranslated.

This tells me that the people who did this evil thing will be answering to God for a H--- of a lot of lies that was mistranslated in our bibles which caused a lot of Christians to die in sin.

In our bible in the book of Revelations 22: 18,19, Jesus says this.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;

And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Gem]

Romans 7: 7-9

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


All those who "know not the law" cannot sin against it. They are alive in Christ.


From the Doctrine and Covanents:

Section 137: 7-10

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.



And from the Book of Mormon

Moroni 8: 22

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—






"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall my word be established."


Lets see.......the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covanents...............1,2,3.......Ayup - I guess its been established! :D

The King James version.

Romans 7: 7-8-9.

7-What shall we say then ? Is the law sin ? certainly not !
On the contary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, " You shall not covet. "

8-But sin , taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

9-I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

[Harmonious]

You make me smile a lot.Fine.

No.

Some ways to heaven without believing in Jesus:
Be an aborted fetus
Be a child who dies before hearing of Jesus
Be a child who dies before being able to accept Jesus
Be a person of diminished mental capablitiy to be unable to make a choice to accept Jesus
Be a practicing Jew
Live in an area or time that does not have christian influences

:)

See?

[BillyBobUSA]

The Bible states that Abraham's righteousness was reckoned to him by God because he believed in what God told him. Also, when he comes from saving his nephew Lot, he meets with the King of Salem(Melchizedek). This is where the first Hebrew and the stated High Priest of God (Christ incarnation) come together and Abraham was blessed.
Genesis 14:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=14&verse=18&version=48&context=verse)
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of the Most High God.

Then David again says that Christ is Lord and High Priest out of the order of Melchizedek in this Psalm
Psalm 110 (21st Century King James Version)


Psalm 110

1The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool."

2The LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion. Rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies!

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, Thou hast the dew of Thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn and will not repent: "Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek."

Then Paul explains it further in the NT

Hebrews 5:3-6 (21st Century King James Version)



3And by reason hereof, he ought, both for the people and also for himself, to make offering for sins.

4And no man taketh this honor unto himself, except he that is called by God, as was Aaron.

5So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made a high priest, but He that said unto Him, "Thou art My Son; today have I begotten Thee."
6And He saith also in another place, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

So then a personal faith in Jesus is not necesary then.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You make me smile a lot.
:)

See?

:dance: :dance:

[smyrna]

So then a personal faith in Jesus is not necesary then.

Glad we cleared that up.

Don't tell the Lord you heard that from Smyrna...:naughty:

[whistlingdixie]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?
Yes, this is what I believe. He said it.. I believe Him. Who is God that He should lie?

[hben]

Yes, this is what I believe. He said it.. I believe Him. Who is God that He should lie?

You ain't just a whistlin' dixie...I believe it, too. :cool:

[matt1618]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven. Only through His blood & His grace can any one be saved. Now, for those people who through no fault of their own have not been made aware of this necessity, and respond positively to the grace that thy are given, they can be saved, but still only through the the Blood of Jesus.

[Reeder]

The King James version.

Romans 7: 7-8-9.

7-What shall we say then ? Is the law sin ? certainly not !
On the contary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, " You shall not covet. "

8-But sin , taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

9-I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Um, I was quoting the King James, as well. And if you don't mind me asking, why did you repost the scripture I used? Were you trying to make a point?

[Gem]

Um, I was quoting the King James, as well. And if you don't mind me asking, why did you repost the scripture I used? Were you trying to make a point?

Sorry, you did didn't you.

No, no point at all.

[Mikko]

Yes, this is what I believe. He said it.. I believe Him. Who is God that He should lie?
How do you know he said it?

[gpd®]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

It is my way.

[hben]

How do you know he said it?

Because it was recorded in the book.

[RayMan]

Because it was recorded in the book.

Hey hben,
You do know Mikko, right? :mrgreen:

[hben]

Hey hben,
You do know Mikko, right? :mrgreen:

Not well.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Because it was recorded in the book.

Meh.

[hben]

Meh.

Yes, Bart? :whistle:

[RayMan]

Yes, Bart? :whistle:

Were you aware that "Meh" has been added to Collins Dictionary?

LONDON — At least someone is excited about "meh."

The expression of indifference or boredom has gained a place in the Collins English Dictionary after generating a surprising amount of enthusiasm among lexicographers.

Publisher HarperCollins announced Monday the word had been chosen from terms suggested by the public for inclusion in the dictionary's 30th anniversary edition, to be published next year.

The origins of "meh" are murky, but the term grew in popularity after being used in a 2001 episode of "The Simpsons" in which Homer suggests a day trip to his children Bart and Lisa.

"They both just reply 'meh' and keep watching TV," said Cormac McKeown, head of content at Collins Dictionaries.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,452993,00.html

[Koushi Shinigami]

He was if he watched the video link I posted for him. :D

[hben]

He was if he watched the video link I posted for him. :D

I watched it, and I feel much smarter now.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Meh.

[hben]

Meh.

Be careful how you pronounce that word, Koushi. You don't want it to come out sounding like "meow". I've noticed a lot of prejudice feelings against cats on here lately. :cool:

[Gidon]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

Yes I Believe.

[noelle12]

Meh.

Seriously, how many of your posts consist of the word "meh" only?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Seriously, how many of your posts consist of the word "meh" only?

Mehny.

[RayMan]

Seriously, how many of your posts consist of the word "meh" only?

Divide his post count by six and you should be in the ballpark.

[Ron Jon]

The Christ priniple??? What is that???Sounds like something Charles (or was it Myrtle?) Fillmore said. But then, it's not a new concept.

http://www.letusreason.org/nam17.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/ChristNAM.html

[HokieCougarVandal]

Mehny.
:lol:

[shearwater]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way by which we may enter heaven. Jesus said of himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

[Ron Jon]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way by which we may enter heaven. Jesus said of himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."According to the gospel of John, Jesus said: "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Notice, in this quote, what Jesus did NOT say. He did NOT say He "is the only way by which we may enter heaven."

Peter, writing to Timothy says something very similar:
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5

It is a man-made interpretation to say Jesus is the only way men may enter heaven. While I may agree with this interpretation, I am not so blind as to not recognize it for what it is.

[AlwaysontheRight]

So how was Abraham saved?

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Galatians 3:8-9 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." (9) So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;


Because of his faith, Abraham (looking forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ) is saved by Jesus' death and resurrection.

[smyrna]

Mehny.



I laughed Me-hny off. :shifty::shifty::shifty:

[Marleysdaddy]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way by which we may enter heaven. Jesus said of himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

Jesus didn't say that...he didn't speak English.

What he is recorded in John 14:6 as having said could be translated in other ways which wouldn't support exclusivity.

[blklab]

Where is this place in the cosmos(?), or is it only in the individual believers mind.

[Ron Jon]

Jesus didn't say that...he didn't speak English.

What he is recorded in John 14:6 as having said could be translated in other ways which wouldn't support exclusivity.

Your opinion is duly noted. However, can you back that opinion up with facts?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Your opinion is duly noted. However, can you back that opinion up with facts?

You dispute the statement that Jesus didn't speak English?

[Ron Jon]

You dispute the statement that Jesus didn't speak English?If I were a nut, I'd say He only spoke 17th century Elizabethan English. But, no, I was referring to this part of the quote: "could be translated in other ways which wouldn't support exclusivity."

If he can back up his opinion (quoted above) that Jesus' statement can be "translated in other ways which WOULDN'T support exclusivity" then I'd certainly like to see it.

[Reeder]

So what you are saying is that you have to have Jesus to be happy. If so that is absurd. There are plenty of people in the world that are completely happy and could careless about Jesus.

It could be argued that they are happy BECAUSE of Jesus, regardless of whether or not they believe in Him.

[Reeder]

It is an easy answer.
First though you must look at why you would not go to heaven.
Reasons you would not go to heaven, another easy question.
You will not go to heaven without forgiveness of sins.
Sounds easy, but is it really. Lets think on this for a moment. You should answer to your self these questions, and with the answers you will find out not just how to get to heaven, but if you really are going.
Question #1: Do you consider yourself a good person?
Question #2 Have you ever told a lie? That means any lie whether it be white, blue, orange, you get my meaing.
Question #3 Well does that lie or lies that I have told make you a liar? Of course it does. no matter the size or harm of the lie, a lie is a lie. It is said in the bible, "Every idle word a man(or woman) speaks will be given account on the day of judgement." This basically means you, me, and everyone is a liar. If there is anyone out there that has never told a lie, YOUR LYING TO YOURSELF!
Question #4 Have you ever stolen anything? No of course not. I have never stolen anything. Thats what you are thinking isn't it. Well if you are willing to admitt that you have stolen then i appluad you. If you won't admitt think of this. No matter how big or how small, if something was not given to you or you did not own it, but took it. You stole it. Plus why would I or anyone believe you. You just got done admitting you were a liar.
Question #5 Have you ever commited Adultery? Now this one is interesting. You know why? Because some of us will say,"I have never cheated on my spouce." WRONG! I have, we all have. How you ask? Jesus said "He who even looks apon another and lusts has commited adultery in there heart." Meaning, you look at another man or woman, and say WOW she(or he) is so hot, sexy, whatever. Thats lust boys and girls,and according to Jesus it is Adultery.
So lets recap We are Lying, Thieving, Adulterers at heart and we all have to face God on judgement day. WOW! Are we all screwed or what? Nope we are not, and why you ask? Because of Jesus and his sacrifice. Jesus died on the cross to for our sins so that we may have our place in heaven. All we have to do is ask for forgiveness. Throw away our foolish pride and humble ourselves in front of the Holy of Holies and ask for forgiveness.

So the question was do you need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. Well yes. Without Jesus dying for our sins where would we be now.

If you would like to discuss this point further you can e-mail me at morty_d83@hotmail.com

(Emphasis is mine)


Easy answer, eh? :))

[Reeder]

That is rediculous. Where in the bible ever does it say Jesus is the route to happiness? I will tell you where, NO WHERE!

I didn't say the Bible, I said the scriptures. And I didn't say that Jesus is the route to happiness, I said that it could be argued that people are happy BECAUSE of Jesus.

[Reeder]

Yes easy.

Okey dokey.

[Koushi Shinigami]

If I were a nut, I'd say He only spoke 17th century Elizabethan English. But, no, I was referring to this part of the quote: "could be translated in other ways which wouldn't support exclusivity."

If he can back up his opinion (quoted above) that Jesus' statement can be "translated in other ways which WOULDN'T support exclusivity" then I'd certainly like to see it.

He can. I've seen his argument before and it's a good one.

I also have an interpretation that differs from yours. My interpretations is basically that Jesus was saying 'I am the example of what to do to get to Heaven.' So there's one other translation for you.

[dust]

So how was Abraham saved?

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

[Mikko]

:)

[ralittlefield]

He can. I've seen his argument before and it's a good one.

I also have an interpretation that differs from yours. My interpretations is basically that Jesus was saying 'I am the example of what to do to get to Heaven.' So there's one other translation for you.

Nope.

That's not another translation, it is another interpretation. A wrong one IMO.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Nope.

That's not another translation, it is another interpretation. A wrong one IMO.

Funny thing about 'O's...... :razz:

[ralittlefield]

Funny thing about 'O's...... :razz:

Yup.

[THE LIGHT]

So how was Abraham saved?

Great question! Matthew 27:51-54 explains this. Until Jesus came, there was no atoning blood and therefore no way to heaven. The sacrifices of animals was only good enough to cover sins but not atone them.

Matthew 27:51-54
-51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
-52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
-53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
-54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

[Ron Jon]

He can. I've seen his argument before and it's a good one.

I also have an interpretation that differs from yours. My interpretations is basically that Jesus was saying 'I am the example of what to do to get to Heaven.' So there's one other translation for you.
Apparently, we are using the words "translation" and "interpretation" differently. Translating Jesus' words [into English] from the original language is not the same thing as giving me your personal interpretation of those words.

[Ron Jon]

nope.

That's not another translation, it is another interpretation. A wrong one imo.+1

[bobfisher]

He can. I've seen his argument before and it's a good one.

I also have an interpretation that differs from yours. My interpretations is basically that Jesus was saying 'I am the example of what to do to get to Heaven.' So there's one other translation for you.

Hey, we agree on something. ;)

To have the foundation of Christ is to do what He says.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

[bobfisher]

Because of his faith, Abraham (looking forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ) is saved by Jesus' death and resurrection.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

[BillyBobUSA]

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56


But by the simplistic reading of passages that assert one cannot come to God but through Christ, Abraham seeing Jesus day and being glad of it does not equate to Abraham being saved.

Most Evangelicals I have met that take their faith seriously will assert that one can love God and still not be saved if one does not surrender ones life to Jesus.

So, once again, how do we know that Abraham was saved if he did not accept Jesus?

[BillyBobUSA]

Great question! Matthew 27:51-54 explains this. Until Jesus came, there was no atoning blood and therefore no way to heaven. The sacrifices of animals was only good enough to cover sins but not atone them.

Matthew 27:51-54
-51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
-52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
-53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
-54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

So the answer is that Abraham was NOT saved?

I think Jesus states plainly that Abraham was saved, and in His parables (which have to be plausible and not fantastic like a fable) He describes Heaven as 'the Bossom of Abraham'.

So how was Abraham saved?

[dust]

There has always been an eternal union between Christ and his people. They were given to the pre-incarnate Christ (the ancient of days), in the eternal past before the world was. Christ is therefore declared to be their "federal head". Where goes the head (Christ), so goes his body (His people).
All of God people Adam, Able, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. and all others were in Christ spiritually, all at the same time, though they lived and died over a course of time. This includes God's people who are living now and those not yet born. All fleshly men were and still are in their "federal head" Satan. Men can't change their father therefore we have the conflict of "free will" and / or "free choice". This is why Jesus told the Pharisees that they couldn't understand nor receive Him or his word because they were of their father the devil.
When Jesus was crucified and suffered, not just the wrath of men, but the wrath of the Father, He suffered vicariously for His people who had sinned in Adam and in their forefathers and in their own person.

Men aren't saved because they accept Christ. Individuals accept that they were saved when they are given a personal revelation that they were in Christ from eternity and at their own execution at the cross. His name shall be called Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins. (Jesus doesn't have to "try to save" individuals). Abraham was in Christ at the cross as were all others who were given to Christ before there was a world.

"Where you there, when they crucified my Lord"?

[Gem]

So the answer is that Abraham was NOT saved?

I think Jesus states plainly that Abraham was saved, and in His parables (which have to be plausible and not fantastic like a fable) He describes Heaven as 'the Bossom of Abraham'.

So how was Abraham saved?

Abraham was saved by his righteous.

[ralittlefield]

Abraham was saved by his righteous.

Rom 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness


I believe this is saying that Abraham had faith in God, and that faith was credited to him as righteousness.

So Abraham was saved the same was Christan are saved, by God's grace through faith.

[Warrior4God]

Rom 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness


I believe this is saying that Abraham had faith in God, and that faith was credited to him as righteousness.

So Abraham was saved the same was Christan are saved, by God's grace through faith.

how true.

It is ONLY by believing first that there is ANY salvation for mankind

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[Black_Conversationalist]

I don't believe that Jesus is the only way into Heaven. If he was then what about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Confuciusians [sic], Sikhs, and etc...where would they all go if they don't believe in Jesus? Each religion is different and have views on how a person will transcend death and go to that "party in the sky".

[hben]

I don't believe that Jesus is the only way into Heaven. If he was then what about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Confuciusians [sic], Sikhs, and etc...where would they all go if they don't believe in Jesus? Each religion is different and have views on how a person will transcend death and go to that "party in the sky".

So you believe they all with get to that party in the sky even though they all worship different gods?

[Black_Conversationalist]

So you believe they all with get to that party in the sky even though they all worship different gods?

No, what I am saying is that everyone has different religious views. There are numerous religions out there and they believe in different things. No one can truly say what it is like after death. The only thing that people have is their faith.

[Reeder]

Okay why would people be happy because of jesus?


Moro. 7: 12-17

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
Alma 41: 10

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.





So essentially, we are all born with what the scriptures call "the light of Christ," which is the ability to discern between right and wrong. That does not guarantee that we will always follow that light, but it is because of Christ that we have that ability. We also know from the above scriptures that all good things come from God, and all evil things come from the devil. The scriptures also say that "wickedness never was happiness."

So you can see, judging by these scriptures, that people are happy "because of" Christ. If they live according to the "light of Christ" which they receive, then they are happy. However, if they choose to live wickedly, they will reap what they sow. Even if they have never heard of Christ, they still have the ability to follow His "light" (influence) and choose good works over evil.

[hben]

Moro. 7: 12-17

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
Alma 41: 10

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.





So essentially, we are all born with what the scriptures call "the light of Christ," which is the ability to discern between right and wrong. That does not guarantee that we will always follow that light, but it is because of Christ that we have that ability. We also know from the above scriptures that all good things come from God, and all evil things come from the devil. The scriptures also say that "wickedness never was happiness."

So you can see, judging by these scriptures, that people are happy "because of" Christ. If they live according to the "light of Christ" which they receive, then they are happy. However, if they choose to live wickedly, they will reap what they sow. Even if they have never heard of Christ, they still have the ability to follow His "light" (influence) and choose good works over evil.

Reeder, do you believe only the devil creates evil? If so, what do you think this passage means?

Isa:45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[Gem]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?

Right on the button Sir. :clap:

[hben]

Right on the button Sir. :clap:

Gem, you must be reading between the lines of the OP. I thought I was asking a question, but you found the answer within the question. ;)

[Gem]

Gem, you must be reading between the lines of the OP. I thought I was asking a question, but you found the answer within the question. ;)

I do that some times. :clap:

[Gem]

Reeder, do you believe only the devil creates evil? If so, what do you think this passage means?

Isa:45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God created good and evil.
He needed compitition.

[hillplus]

God created good and evil.
He needed compitition.

There is truth to this competition concept.Other translations give a slightly different look at the Isaiah passage. More that God ALLOWS evil because then we are able to choose good and learn. We are not robots who are compelled to be good. Evil is more of an absence of good the way cold is an absence of heat.

Frankly, I am surprised you would see this passage the way that you do, hben. Most Bible commentaries look at it as God allowing rather than actually creating evil.

[Gem]

There is truth to this competition concept.Other translations give a slightly different look at the Isaiah passage. More that God ALLOWS evil because then we are able to choose good and learn. We are not robots who are compelled to be good. Evil is more of an absence of good the way cold is an absence of heat.

Frankly, I am surprised you would see this passage the way that you do, hben. Most Bible commentaries look at it as God allowing rather than actually creating evil.

Didn't God say He created ALL things for His pleasure ?
I believe that would includ evil to. :razz:

[hben]

Frankly, I am surprised you would see this passage the way that you do, hben. Most Bible commentaries look at it as God allowing rather than actually creating evil.

I know how most commentaries treat this passage, and I am not necessarily in disagreement with that. I actually don't see the difference between creating evil or allowing evil, because I believe God uses it "for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose". I guess I prefer to give God the glory and credit for the evil that is used for good. Maybe that is a strange way to look at it, but I have been known to be strange at times. ;)

Rom:8:28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[Gem]

I know how most commentaries treat this passage, and I am not necessarily in disagreement with that. I actually don't see the difference between creating evil or allowing evil, because I believe God uses it "for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose". I guess I prefer to give God the glory and credit for the evil that is used for good. Maybe that is a strange way to look at it, but I have been known to be strange at times. ;)

Rom:8:28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Come on hben.
Now you know that if there was no evil in the world there would be no sinners. right ?
we all would be perfect with no sin.

I give God glory and praise for everything He did and does.

[Gem]

how true.

It is ONLY by believing first that there is ANY salvation for mankind

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Of course you have to believe in God.
If you dont then you are just lost.

[Reeder]

Reeder, do you believe only the devil creates evil? If so, what do you think this passage means?

Isa:45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


I believe He allows evil to exist in order that there might be opposition. Personally, I don't believe anything can necessarily be "created." Organized.....yes; allowed.......yes; but not necessarily "created."

[Ignorance Breeds Contempt]

Evil exists BECAUSE God exists. What is evil? Anything contrary to the nature of God, correct? By His mere existence, the potential for evil exists. It is in the creation of a being with the ability to choose between abiding with God and according to His will, or to reject Him and live in a fashion contrary to His nature that the potential for evil became actual evil. In a sense, God created evil when He created man with the ability to choose between serving Him or serving himself.

[hben]

I believe He allows evil to exist in order that there might be opposition. Personally, I don't believe anything can necessarily be "created." Organized.....yes; allowed.......yes; but not necessarily "created."

So you don't believe in creation by God?

[mgifford]

So how was Abraham saved?


Romans 4:3
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness Before he was circumcised "Genesis 15:6". He was saved on credit, by faith.

[hben]

Romans 4:3
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness Before he was circumcised "Genesis 15:6". He was saved on credit, by faith.

And God's credit card beats Mastercard anyday.

[Reeder]

So you don't believe in creation by God?


God didn't create the earth - He organized it. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. It is as eternal as God, Himself.

[mgifford]

And God's credit card beats Mastercard anyday.

Yes it does. Abe had faith that the "messiah" was coming and the Messiah did just that for him in "paradise". When Abe looked upon the face of Jesus, he knew that He was whom he was waiting for.

[hben]

God didn't create the earth - He organized it. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. It is as eternal as God, Himself.

Whooooaaa...wait a minute. Houston, we have a problem. If the creator can't create, then I wouldn't trust Him to organize or save either. I believe He has no limits whatsoever, and I like it that way.

[mgifford]

Hben, that's enough right there to make a "Baptist" dance.
PS, me too!

[hben]

Yes it does. Abe had faith that the "messiah" was coming and the Messiah did just that for him in "paradise". When Abe looked on the face of Jesus, he knew that was whom he was waiting for.

I like the way you put it. A picture is worth a thousand words, and you have given me a very good picture in my mind. Thanks. :clap:

[terri910]

God didn't create the earth - He organized it. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. It is as eternal as God, Himself.
What does Genesis 1:1 mean to you, Reeder?

[hben]

What does Genesis 1:1 mean to you, Reeder?

Reeder believes God organized the entire universe in only 6 days. Now if we can just figure out who created it before that. :rolleyes:

[mgifford]

I like the way you put it. A picture is worth a thousand words, and you have given me a very good picture in my mind. Thanks. :clap:

Well, check this out. When Jesus arrived, He defeated every devil in hell and "took The Keys To Death Hell and The Grave" from Satan. Just imagine every human who was ever born right there looking upon the "Precious Lamb of God Who Taketh Away The Sin of The World"." Jesus in all His Splendor, finishing a work that was to be done just before "His Sitting Down At The Right Hand Of The Father".

[Reeder]

What does Genesis 1:1 mean to you, Reeder?

In which language? :D

[Reeder]

Reeder believes God organized the entire universe in only 6 days. Now if we can just figure out who created it before that. :rolleyes:

:confused:

Judging by the fact that I can't ever recall telling you that, where are you getting your information from?

[terri910]

In which language? :D
Whichever language you are using.

[hillplus]

Reeder, what a tease.

LDS don't believe in creatio ex nihilo.

Science tells us that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. We believe that is true.

[orbitaldecay]

Reeder, what a tease.

LDS don't believe in creatio ex nihilo.

Science tells us that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. We believe that is true.

But it's not by science that we have come to that belief but the Pearl of Great Price and modern day prophets, just to clarify for everybody. :)

[terri910]

I'm still waiting for Reeder to let me know what Genesis 1:1 means to him.

Any others that wish to give their thoughts may...

[Koushi Shinigami]

God didn't create the earth - He organized it. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. It is as eternal as God, Himself.

An interesting perspective that I had not considered before. :think:

[hillplus]

Answering Tim, but he just deleted.


As early as 1831, Joseph Smith introduced a startling doctrine: that both intelligence and matter (energy) are eternal, having always existed, and are destined to endure forever.

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.

“And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” (D&C 93:33–34.)

This doctrine is unique in a world where the prevailing view has been that the spirit of man had a beginning and where the view that God created the elements is still taught.

But the teaching of the Doctrine and Covenants goes further to declare that the elements are controlled by law.

“And again, verily, I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things by which they move in their times and their seasons;

“And their courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth and all the planets.” (D&C 88:42–43.)

“Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29.)

This doctrine explains why there exist no ultimate irresolvable conflicts between the church of Jesus Christ and the truths about the universe now being opened to the minds of man by scientific research.

[terri910]

I've never heard that about LDS...

So do LDS believe matter has always existed? Like God?
It appears Reeder does, anyway:
God didn't create the earth - He organized it. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. It is as eternal as God, Himself.

[terri910]

Answering Tim, but he just deleted.


As early as 1831, Joseph Smith introduced a startling doctrine: that both intelligence and matter (energy) are eternal, having always existed, and are destined to endure forever.

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.

“And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” (D&C 93:33–34.)

This doctrine is unique in a world where the prevailing view has been that the spirit of man had a beginning and where the view that God created the elements is still taught.

But the teaching of the Doctrine and Covenants goes further to declare that the elements are controlled by law.

“And again, verily, I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things by which they move in their times and their seasons;

“And their courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth and all the planets.” (D&C 88:42–43.)

“Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29.)

This doctrine explains why there exist no ultimate irresolvable conflicts between the church of Jesus Christ and the truths about the universe now being opened to the minds of man by scientific research.
Interesting, but I'm still interested in your understanding of Genesis 1:1.

[Tim]

You guys are too quick with answers today! LOL -

Thanks much.

I, too, believe that matter has always existed. I don't believe in a god, however.

[Reeder]

I'm still waiting for Reeder to let me know what Genesis 1:1 means to him.

Any others that wish to give their thoughts may...

My answer has not changed. I don't believe God "created" the earth in that He waved His magic wand and *poof*......the earth appears and *poof*.......the animals and plants and mankind all appear - all from nothing. Like I said before, I believe He organized it from already existing materials. Why do I believe this?.....because I believe that matter is eternal, and can be neither created, nor destroyed. If I were to "create" something, it doesn't mean I caused materials to appear which beforehand didn't exist. It means that I "organized" materials into a car, or a computer, or whatever. "Create," IMHO, does not necessarily mean what many Christians believe it means.

When our bodies die, they are not eternally destroyed - they are changed from one substance to another. They become "dust," as the scriptures say, and return to the earth from which they came. So it is with the "Creation." The materials were already there, and God, in His infinite wisdom, took those materials and organized them into our earth, our galaxy, our solar system, etc. Orbit and hillplus have provided a bit more insight on the subject.

[orbitaldecay]

I'm still waiting for Reeder to let me know what Genesis 1:1 means to him.

Any others that wish to give their thoughts may...

From Wikipedia:
Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, dismissed creation ex nihilo, and introduced revelation that specifically countered this concept. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that matter is both eternal and infinite and that it can be neither created nor destroyed. Latter-day Saint apologists have commented on Colossians 1:16 that the "Greek text does not teach ex nihilo, but creation out of pre-existing raw materials, since the verb ktidzo 'carried an architectural connotation...as in to build or establish a city....Thus, the verb presupposes the presence of already existing material.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo

The LDS stuff is pretty accurate. I don't know well enough about the translation stuff to comment about that.

[RayMan]

My answer has not changed. I don't believe God "created" the earth in that He waved His magic wand and *poof*......the earth appears and *poof*.......the animals and plants and mankind all appear - all from nothing. Like I said before, I believe He organized it from already existing materials. Why do I believe this?.....because I believe that matter is eternal, and can be neither created, nor destroyed. If I were to "create" something, it doesn't mean I caused materials to appear which beforehand didn't exist. It means that I "organized" materials into a car, or a computer, or whatever. "Create," IMHO, does not necessarily mean what many Christians believe it means.

When our bodies die, they are not eternally destroyed - they are changed from one substance to another. They become "dust," as the scriptures say, and return to the earth from which they came. So it is with the "Creation." The materials were already there, and God, in His infinite wisdom, took those materials and organized them into our earth, our galaxy, our solar system, etc. Orbit and hillplus have provided a bit more insight on the subject.

I think everyone here is aware of how reluctant I am to agree with Reeder on even the slightest bit of doctrine but here is a verse which I feel leans toward his viewpoint.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



Made not out of things which did not exist but out of things which did not appear.

[Mikko]

I'm still waiting for Reeder to let me know what Genesis 1:1 means to him.

Any others that wish to give their thoughts may...
Genesis 1:1 means that God was there first and created the heavens and the earth. If they had already existed, then there would have been no need to mention that He created them.:)

[hillplus]

Interesting, but I'm still interested in your understanding of Genesis 1:1.

Does an artist create their masterpiece out of nothing? I have no problem saying that God created the earth, but I am going to have a different view as to what that means.

[terri910]

My answer has not changed.
*LOL* Well, I didn't expect it to....but I still haven't seen the answer to my question, which was "What does Genesis 1:1 mean to you?" You then asked me, "In what language?" and I replied "In whatever language you are using." Was there a reason you asked about the language, or were you just teasing as another poster said? :razz:

I don't believe God "created" the earth in that He waved His magic wand and *poof*......the earth appears and *poof*.......the animals and plants and mankind all appear - all from nothing. Like I said before, I believe He organized it from already existing materials. Why do I believe this?.....because I believe that matter is eternal, and can be neither created, nor destroyed. If I were to "create" something, it doesn't mean I caused materials to appear which beforehand didn't exist. It means that I "organized" materials into a car, or a computer, or whatever. "Create," IMHO, does not necessarily mean what many Christians believe it means.
Because of your question about the language I thought perhaps you believed there to be evidence that the original language didn't mean what many Christians believe it to mean: that where there was nothing (i.e., "void") God made something. (I also wonder what our Jewish friends believe is meant in Genesis 1:1, out of curiosity).

When our bodies die, they are not eternally destroyed - they are changed from one substance to another. They become "dust," as the scriptures say, and return to the earth from which they came. So it is with the "Creation." The materials were already there, and God, in His infinite wisdom, took those materials and organized them into our earth, our galaxy, our solar system, etc. Orbit and hillplus have provided a bit more insight on the subject.
hillplus shared some LDS scripture, which does give insight into what you believe as far as your statement goes. I even understand your point of an artist creating even though that artist did not cause the materials he uses to appear. Our difference may come, perhaps, because I don't believe I can cause something to exist, but I do believe God can. Would it be correct or incorrect for me to assume that you do not believe God can cause something to exist that did not exist previously?

[orbitaldecay]

hillplus shared some LDS scripture, which does give insight into what you believe as far as your statement goes. I even understand your point of an artist creating even though that artist did not cause the materials he uses to appear. Our difference may come, perhaps, because I don't believe I can cause something to exist, but I do believe God can. Would it be correct or incorrect for me to assume that you do not believe God can cause something to exist that did not exist previously?

By our belief that matter is eternal, it's hard for something to have not existed at one moment and existed at the next.

[orbitaldecay]

By our belief that matter is eternal, it's hard for something to have not existed at one moment and existed at the next.

The next question is how does one reference something that does not exist...:think:

Because if you reference something that doesn't exist, it exists, but by it's own definition it doesn't exist.

Paradox fun!:dance:

[terri910]

By our belief that matter is eternal, it's hard for something to have not existed at one moment and existed at the next.
That isn't exactly what I asked, though, is it? So, I guess it is safe to assume that whether or not you believe God can or could cause something to exist that did previously exist, you do not believe He did or has.

Do you believe your physical body has always existed?

[orbitaldecay]

That isn't exactly what I asked, though, is it? So, I guess it is safe to assume that whether or not you believe God can or could cause something to exist that did previously exist, you do not believe He did or has.

Do you believe your physical body has always existed?

The matter it's made of has always existed.

[terri910]

The matter it's made of has always existed.
Nothing and no one made it?

I'm with Theophilus
"Furthermore, inasmuch as God is uncreated, he is also unchangeable; so also, if matter were uncreated, it would be unchangeable and equal to God. That which is created is alterable and changeable, while that which is uncreated is unalterable and unchangeable. What great thing were it, if God made the world out of existing matter? Even a human artist, when he obtains material from someone, makes of it whatever he pleases. But the power of God is made evident in this, that he makes out of what does not exist whatever he pleases, and the giving of life and movement belongs to none other but to God alone" (To Autolycus 2:4 [A.D. 181]).

[orbitaldecay]

Nothing and no one made it?

I'm with Theophilus

Interesting, I don't really understand how being uncreated amounts to being unchangeable.

[terri910]

Interesting, I don't really understand how being uncreated amounts to being unchangeable.
That's okay. I don't really understand a God that didn't bring everything into existence! :hug:

[orbitaldecay]

That's okay. I don't really understand a God that didn't bring everything into existence! :hug:

I perfectly understand the "hard time understanding". I can't comprehend what was before "the beginning" in any creation account: ex nihilo, organized matter, or Big Bang. :mrgreen:

[belexes]

The matter it's made of has always existed.

I beg to differ...

Scripture does not describe matter (or anything physical) as being eternal. The only entity described as being eternal is God Himself.


15And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. - Colossians 1:15-17

We exist because God/Jesus Christ "holds us together". He literally steers every electron in its orbit around its nucleus of every atom in the universe.

The scientific axiom that matter can neither be created nor destroyed is only partially true - in that it can not be created or destroyed by humans. It's not that matter can't be created or destroyed, it's that God has not granted us the ability to create or destroy it. He retains that capability for Himself (for good reason, given our history).

God keeps the physical "laws" in place (most of the time) for our benefit, so that we have consistency and order to our existence. However, God makes and upholds the physical laws at His will, and is free to alter or abolish them should He choose to do so. When He does so, (usually to remind us simpletons that He is God and we're not), we call it a "miracle".

The scripture above also sets the stage for why Jesus is the only way to heaven. "All things have been created through Him and for Him". We are His to do with as He sees fit. He said no one gets to heaven except through Him. We are not given the freedom to choose our own way. Fortunately for us, just like our very existence depends on Him, our salvation depends completely on Him as well, because were we left to ourselves, we would not choose Him, and would doom ourselves to destruction.

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:9-13

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. - John 6:44-45

[Marleysdaddy]

We exist because God/Jesus Christ "holds us together". He literally steers every electron in its orbit around its nucleus of every atom in the universe.


:eek: Determinism much?


:razz:

[orbitaldecay]

I beg to differ...

Scripture does not describe matter (or anything physical) as being eternal. The only entity described as being eternal is God Himself.


15And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. - Colossians 1:15-17

Colossians was mentioned here:
http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=46561851&postcount=160



We exist because God/Jesus Christ "holds us together". He literally steers every electron in its orbit around its nucleus of every atom in the universe.

What exists? Our body, Our spirit?

I won't disagree with you on this matter because I just don't know.


The scientific axiom that matter can neither be created nor destroyed is only partially true - in that it can not be created or destroyed by humans. It's not that matter can't be created or destroyed, it's that God has not granted us the ability to create or destroy it. He retains that capability for Himself (for good reason, given our history).

Or some assume as much.

God keeps the physical "laws" in place (most of the time) for our benefit, so that we have consistency and order to our existence. However, God makes and upholds the physical laws at His will, and is free to alter or abolish them should He choose to do so. When He does so, (usually to remind us simpletons that He is God and we're not), we call it a "miracle".

I agree.

The scripture above also sets the stage for why Jesus is the only way to heaven. "All things have been created through Him and for Him". We are His to do with as He sees fit. He said no one gets to heaven except through Him. We are not given the freedom to choose our own way. Fortunately for us, just like our very existence depends on Him, our salvation depends completely on Him as well, because were we left to ourselves, we would not choose Him, and would doom ourselves to destruction.


9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:9-13

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. - John 6:44-45

I agree.

[Koushi Shinigami]

We exist because God/Jesus Christ "holds us together". He literally steers every electron in its orbit around its nucleus of every atom in the universe.


That's one busy deity. :think: "Busier than a one armed Jesus Christ steering every electron in its orbit around its nucleus of every atom in the universe."

Nah, doesn't have a 'ring'.


The scientific axiom that matter can neither be created nor destroyed is only partially true - in that it can not be created or destroyed by humans. It's not that matter can't be created or destroyed, it's that God has not granted us the ability to create or destroy it. He retains that capability for Himself (for good reason, given our history).



Two words.

Fission.

Fusion.



.

[BillyBobUSA]

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

I hate to be rude, but that says nothing about Abraham being saved.

And if he was, it is completely contrary to this simple formula of 'professing Jesus' = 'Salvation'.

There is nothing that says Abraham knew who Jesus was and accepted Him as Lord and Savior, but only that he looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.

[hben]

I hate to be rude, but that says nothing about Abraham being saved.

And if he was, it is completely contrary to this simple formula of 'professing Jesus' = 'Salvation'.

There is nothing that says Abraham knew who Jesus was and accepted Him as Lord and Savior, but only that he looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.

Believing God sounds pretty simple to me even if a lot of religious folks try to make it seem complicated.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

[mgifford]

Believing God sounds pretty simple to me even if a lot of religious folks try to make it seem complicated.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Hben I think we just rejoiced over this subject.

[hben]

Hben I think we just rejoyced over this subject.

Did I arrive too late for the rejoicing party? :shifty:

[mgifford]

Did I arrive too late for the rejoicing party? :shifty:

Yesterday when I made a statement about Abe looking on the face of Jesus in paradise. The statement here tonite is that there's no proof that Abe was saved.

[notluzn]

I believe in God and Jesus but will always have a hard time believeing all that is in the Bible.

[hben]

Yesterday when I made a statement about Abe looking on the face of Jesus in paradise. The statement here tonite is that there's no proof that Abe was saved.

What a rediculous statement. We aren't able to get into heaven when our righteousness is as filthy rags, but once we believe, we are able to trade our old filthy rags in for His righteousness, then there is nothing to keep us out.

[hben]

I believe in God and Jesus but will always have a hard time believeing all that is in the Bible.

Then how do you know what to believe about God and Jesus? All of our information about them comes from the Bible.

[mgifford]

what a rediculous statement. We aren't able to get into heaven when our righteousness is as filthy rags, but once we believe, we are able to trade our old filthy rags in for his righteousness, then there is nothing to keep us out.

+1

[hben]

+1

And that is for sure something to "shout about" which is a country term for "rejoice". :cool:

[mgifford]

And that is for sure something to "shout about" which is a country term for "rejoice". :cool:

Yes sir!

[hben]

So how was Abraham saved?

By God's grace through faith. He didn't have the knowledge of the messiah that we have on this side of the cross, but what little bit God told Him, He simply believed, and his faith was counted for righteousness the same way our's is.

[Koushi Shinigami]

What a rediculous statement. We aren't able to get into heaven when our righteousness is as filthy rags,


No. We cannot get to Heaven when we treat our own righteousness as if it was filthy rags.

[BillyBobUSA]

Believing God sounds pretty simple to me even if a lot of religious folks try to make it seem complicated.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Then the rubric that one must personally believe in Jesus and accept Him as Lord and Savior is wrong.

And what about Enoch? Or Cyrus? Righteous men that God favored as well; you think they are in Hell?

When we die and God judges us, if He takes us into His Kingdom, we will be brought in by the Sacred Blood of Christ, just as it was with Enoch and Cyrus; whether we had a personal faith in Him as a human being or not.

[BillyBobUSA]

No. We cannot get to Heaven when we treat our own righteousness as if it was filthy rags.

??????
:eh:

[terri910]

Then how do you know what to believe about God and Jesus? All of our information about them comes from the Bible.
Maybe all of your information comes from there, hben. :razz:

notluzn should know that Catholics believe in Sacred Tradition handed down from the Apostles. There's a bit of info there, IMO.

[Reeder]

Maybe all of your information comes from there, hben. :razz:


Ya beat me to it, terri. :)

[Gem]

By our belief that matter is eternal, it's hard for something to have not existed at one moment and existed at the next.

I actualy do not think God created every thing instantly.

I believe that things had to take time and grow like the trees do today.

Then again I could be wrong on that.

[hben]

By our belief that matter is eternal, it's hard for something to have not existed at one moment and existed at the next.

It is hard to call a man forth from the grave after being dead for 4 days, too...but it was no problem for Jesus. I don't understand why anyone would think God has to do the usual way that man does when He is all powerful...not to mention that it was He who created the very laws of nature that we have to abide by, because we have no choice.

[hben]

No. We cannot get to Heaven when we treat our own righteousness as if it was filthy rags.

That's why we need His righteousness which only comes by grace through faith in Him.

[hben]

Then the rubric that one must personally believe in Jesus and accept Him as Lord and Savior is wrong.

And what about Enoch? Or Cyrus? Righteous men that God favored as well; you think they are in Hell?

When we die and God judges us, if He takes us into His Kingdom, we will be brought in by the Sacred Blood of Christ, just as it was with Enoch and Cyrus; whether we had a personal faith in Him as a human being or not.

No one will enter into heaven without having be washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, so it sounds to me like we are in agreement.

[hillplus]

It is hard to call a man forth from the grave after being dead for 4 days, too...but it was no problem for Jesus. I don't understand why anyone would think God has to do the usual way that man does when He is all powerful...not to mention that it was He who created the very laws of nature that we have to abide by, because we have no choice.

The usual way? I didn't think there was a usual way when it comes to mere mortals creating planets etc...

[hben]

The usual way? I didn't think there was a usual way when it comes to mere mortals creating planets etc...

There isn't, but some seem to believe that God needed more than 6 days to organize everything, and to add to my confusion, some don't even think God created everything at all...He only organized what someone else had already created. I must admit that is a new one that I've never heard before.

[hillplus]

There isn't, but some seem to believe that God needed more than 6 days to organize everything, and to add to my confusion, some don't even think God created everything at all...He only organized what someone else had already created. I must admit that is a new one that I've never heard before.

Why didn't He just snap His fingers and have it all come into existence, that's what I want to know.

[hben]

Why didn't He just snap His fingers and have it all come into existence, that's what I want to know.

He just spoke everything into being, so why snap His fingers? Remember, there was no one there to impress at the time, so the finger snapping stuff really would not have even got a single handclap.

[hillplus]

He just spoke everything into being, so why snap His fingers? Remember, there was no one there to impress at the time, so the finger snapping stuff really would not have even got a single handclap.

Why did it take six days? Why was it not instantaneous? (Figure of speech on the finger snapping.)

[hben]

Why did it take six days? Why was it not instantaneous? (Figure of speech on the finger snapping.)

I don't believe He really ever told us why? Why do you ask why? Do you ask why it takes "x" amount of hours for Ford to produce one car?

[HardHammer]

No. We cannot get to Heaven when we treat our own righteousness as if it was filthy rags.

Good luck with that.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Good luck with that.

No luck is necessary.


But thankyou for caring.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Are righteous deeds the fruit of being saved?

[melinda]

He just spoke everything into being, so why snap His fingers? Remember, there was no one there to impress at the time, so the finger snapping stuff really would not have even got a single handclap.

maybe He just wanted to snap His fingers to entertain Himself ... :)
How do you know He did not?
and I seriously, seriously doubt God expects a "handclap" from anyone......

[melinda]

Why didn't He just snap His fingers and have it all come into existence, that's what I want to know.

ask Him.... only He has the answer to that one.

Why do you do certain things the way that you do them?

[HardHammer]

There isn't, but some seem to believe that God needed more than 6 days to organize everything, and to add to my confusion, some don't even think God created everything at all...He only organized what someone else had already created. I must admit that is a new one that I've never heard before.

I suspect there's a few more things we have never heard either hben, but I find this information very telling, IMHO. To have faith in the world and of heaven, I wonder if that's what God intended, to rely on someting/someone else to augment His Majesty.

[HardHammer]

No luck is necessary.


But thankyou for caring.

Meh

[HardHammer]

maybe He just wanted to snap His fingers to entertain Himself ... :)
How do you know He did not?
and I seriously, seriously doubt God expects a "handclap" from anyone......

Well, obviously there are some that believe He needed someone to create matter before he, cough, organized it.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Meh

You don't care? :(

[HardHammer]

You don't care? :(

Does my caring save you? To care about mans foolshiness is not to care about Gods wisdom. Do I think your seeking after His wisdom?, uh no. That only leaves 1 other option from my POV.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Does my caring save you? To care about mans foolshiness is not to care about Gods wisdom. Do I think your seeking after His wisdom?, uh no. That only leaves 1 other option from my POV.




:)):)):)):)):)):))


We all have our own opinions. And they all have the same olfactory quality.

[HardHammer]

:)):)):)):)):)):))


We all have our own opinions. And they all have the same olfactory quality.

If it was my opinion, then I could take credit for it, but I can't. The Bible tells the story, I'm just a story teller passing on the message.

How terribly unfortunate you find it entertaining to malign peoples faith, given the bits of information you have provided regarding your situation at home with your wife, I guess this is the only way to try and exert some sort of truth/control pertaining to your life. Your worldy positions are as old as dirt itself and carry an equal or lesser value in IMHO.

[Lie Sniper]

If it was my opinion, then I could take credit for it, but I can't. The Bible tells the story, I'm just a story teller passing on the message.

How terribly unfortunate you find it entertaining to malign peoples faith, given the bits of information you have provided regarding your situation at home with your wife, I guess this is the only way to try and exert some sort of truth/control pertaining to your life. Your worldy positions are as old as dirt itself and carry an equal or lesser value in IMHO.

This post is going way beyond the OP and could be considered a personal attack IMO. You may want to edit or delete it?????:naughty:

[HardHammer]

This post is going way beyond the OP and could be considered a personal attack IMO. You may want to edit or delete it?????:naughty:


I'm not sure where it is I'm PERSONALLY attacking Kosh, he does malign peoples faith (As do others in this forum), true statement.

He has brought pieces his peronal life into this forum for all to see, I didn't make him do that, it was done by his free will, true statement.

Why he does these things was and is speculation on my behalf, since he has not to this day that I have read given any explaination as to why he is so overt to Gods Plan.

And my OPINION regarding his positions (as well as others), which I might add are held by a number of people here in this forum, are as old as dirt which I hold in very little to no value. My opinion and true statement as far as I am concerned.

He is just regurgitating the same defiance, IMHO, that Cain did when asked to bring a Sacrafice to God.



So, please explain how I have personally attacked anyone?

[BillyBobUSA]

Believing God sounds pretty simple to me even if a lot of religious folks try to make it seem complicated.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."


And cannot one believe God without having any concept of who Jesus was?

And that is the third time that scripture was quoted and the other questions ignored?

What of Enoch? What of Cyrus?

Are they damned or not?

[BillyBobUSA]

No one will enter into heaven without having be washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, so it sounds to me like we are in agreement.


Where we are not in agreement is that I dont think that one necesarily has to know Jesus personally to enter Heaven since we know some have without personal knowledge of Him.

The Catholic church concedes that some will enter into Heaven without a personal knowledge of Jesus, and any who do that are still cleansed by the Blood of Christ just as Abraham, Enoch and Cyrus were.

[hben]

And cannot one believe God without having any concept of who Jesus was?

And that is the third time that scripture was quoted and the other questions ignored?

What of Enoch? What of Cyrus?

Are they damned or not?

Did they believe God? If so, then their faith was counted for righteousness. Enoch didn't see death, so I think it is obvious about his salvation. I would have to read up on Cyrus, because I am drawing a blank right now as for his story...it's called a grey moment. :think:

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'm not sure where it is I'm PERSONALLY attacking Kosh, he does malign peoples faith (As do others in this forum), true statement.



*ring, ring*

Hello?

Yo, Kettle!!!! Yeah, Dis is Pot, mannn. Ow'z it hangin Bro. Yo, yo guess what,...... yo black.

[Lie Sniper]

I'm not sure where it is I'm PERSONALLY attacking Kosh, he does malign peoples faith (As do others in this forum), true statement.

He has brought pieces his peronal life into this forum for all to see, I didn't make him do that, it was done by his free will, true statement.

Why he does these things was and is speculation on my behalf, since he has not to this day that I have read given any explaination as to why he is so overt to Gods Plan.

And my OPINION regarding his positions (as well as others), which I might add are held by a number of people here in this forum, are as old as dirt which I hold in very little to no value. My opinion and true statement as far as I am concerned.

He is just regurgitating the same defiance, IMHO, that Cain did when asked to bring a Sacrafice to God.



So, please explain how I have personally attacked anyone?

The Title of the Thread,

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven?


Your Post,

Originally Posted by HardHammer
If it was my opinion, then I could take credit for it, but I can't. The Bible tells the story, I'm just a story teller passing on the message.

How terribly unfortunate you find it entertaining to malign peoples faith, given the bits of information you have provided regarding your situation at home with your wife, I guess this is the only way to try and exert some sort of truth/control pertaining to your life. Your worldy positions are as old as dirt itself and carry an equal or lesser value in IMHO.


Bringing up personal information about someone for us as a rebuttal, and used to explain away their belief and or position on something, is a low blow in my opinion.

But, hey Koushi is a big boy and if he has no problem with it than neither do I. :whistle:

[Lie Sniper]

*ring, ring*

Hello?

Yo, Kettle!!!! Yeah, Dis is Pot, mannn. Ow'z it hangin Bro. Yo, yo guess what,...... yo black.

:cool:

[Koushi Shinigami]

But, hey Koushi is a big boy and if he has no problem with it than neither do I. :whistle:

I'm fine with allowing him to reveal his brand of christian compassion.

[hben]

No. We cannot get to Heaven when we treat our own righteousness as if it was filthy rags.

I have tried to wash mine in Tide, Cheer, Purex and Clorox, but the stains are ground in too deep. The only thing that has ever gotten rid of the stains is the blood of the lamb.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have tried to wash mine in Tide, Cheer, Purex and Clorox, but the stains are ground in too deep. The only thing that has ever gotten rid of the stains is the blood of the lamb.

Your Christianity has corrupted your interpretation of that scripture.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Your worldy positions are as old as dirt itself and carry an equal or lesser value in IMHO.

Why thankyou. Have you priced out a patch of dirt in Manhattan lately? :cool:

[hben]

Your Christianity has corrupted your interpretation of that scripture.

You are truly a hoot, Koushi. :))

Your opinion is truly invaluable to me.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You are truly a hoot, Koushi. :))

Your opinion is truly invaluable to me.


S'ok. The feeling is quite mutual.

[hben]

S'ok. The feeling is quite mutual.

That is obvious by the way you normally respond to most of my posts.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That is obvious by the way you normally respond to most of my posts.

*bows* But of course.

[hillplus]

Well, obviously there are some that believe He needed someone to create matter before he, cough, organized it.

No one believes that. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Hebrew uses term that means created, shaped and fashioned. Always divine activity. It doesn't mean it was created out of nothing.

The problem I see here is that somehow this is seen as making God out to be LESS somehow. That just isn't true. LDS also state that God has created worlds(peopled worlds) without number(at least to us, He can number them.) That's a pretty powerful God IMO. Plus, He knows us personally. WOW

[PaleoPaul]

Sí.

[hben]

No one believes that. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

Can life be created?

[bayoubill]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? If not, then what other way is there? What did He mean when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"?


I have no idea what Heaven (or any other possible afterlife) may be.


From what I've read of Jesus (who I dearly love),

he wouldn't bar a good and righteous person from whatever rewards there may be after death.


As much as I love Jesus, I don't buy into the cult of Jesus,

not into the excusivity of Christianity as being the only way to salvation.

[hben]

I have no idea what Heaven (or any other possible afterlife) may be.


From what I've read of Jesus (who I dearly love),

he wouldn't bar a good and righteous person from whatever rewards there may be after death.


As much as I love Jesus, I don't buy into the cult of Jesus,

not into the excusivity of Christianity as being the only way to salvation.

If you love Jesus, why don't you believe and accept what He said?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I have no idea what Heaven (or any other possible afterlife) may be.


From what I've read of Jesus (who I dearly love),

he wouldn't bar a good and righteous person from whatever rewards there may be after death.


As much as I love Jesus, I don't buy into the cult of Jesus,

not into the excusivity of Christianity as being the only way to salvation.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Well said.

[bayoubill]

If you love Jesus, why don't you believe and accept what He said?


I truly believe Jesus showed us the most perfect way.


However, I don't believe it to be in Jesus's nature to shut out from "the rewards of Heaven" any good person who happened to not benefit from having "accepted Jesus as his personal savior".


i.e., I don't buy into the monolithic Christian cult of Jesus.

[Koushi Shinigami]

If you love Jesus, why don't you believe and accept what He said?

Show me something he wrote.

[bayoubill]

Jesus Rocks!


However, I'm not a big fan of Constantine and the Council of Nicea.

[hben]

I truly believe Jesus showed us the most perfect way.


However, I don't believe it to be in Jesus's nature to shut out from "the rewards of Heaven" any good person who happened to not benefit from having "accepted Jesus as his personal savior".


i.e., I don't buy into the monolithic Christian cult of Jesus.

If He lied about one thing then how could you trust Him on anything He said?

[hben]

Show me something he wrote.

He wrote the whole Bible by inspiration.

[bayoubill]

If He lied about one thing then how could you trust Him on anything He said?


Did I say he lied?


I don't think so.

[hben]

Did I say he lied?


I don't think so.

Not is those words, but He said that He was THE way, THE truth and THE life, and you said that He wasn't the only way.

[bayoubill]

Not is those words, but He said that He was THE way, THE truth and THE life, and you said that He wasn't the only way.


What is undesputed is that Jesus showed the path and said "follow me".


What is desputed is the manner by which it is required to follow Jesus' admonishions.


Should we really trust a coniving self-serving 4th century emporer and his toadies to give us Jesus' true message?

[bayoubill]

Not is those words, but He said that He was THE way, THE truth and THE life, and you said that He wasn't the only way.


Jesus said he was the way, but I can't imagine a loving Jesus would shut out all those good people who hadn't accepted the official Jesus line...


it was his self-serving apostles who said he was the only way...


actually, thinking about it, it was Constantine and his Nicean toadies who initiated the "Jesus or Hell" Hobbsen's choice.


**** 'em.

[Koushi Shinigami]

He wrote the whole Bible by inspiration.

Nope.

But then again, your statement reinforces my position. Jesus didn't write one single word in the bible. If one believes your position, he dictated it and someone else wrote it down.

[Lie Sniper]

Nope.

But then again, your statement reinforces my position. Jesus didn't write one single word in the bible. If one believes your position, he dictated it and someone else wrote it down.

Koushi, how do you differentiate between what is true in the bible and what is fabrication?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Koushi, how do you differentiate between what is true in the bible and what is fabrication?

The same way every single person does. Read it and decide what one will accept.

[Lie Sniper]

The same way every single person does. Read it and decide what one will accept.

:doh: I could have answered that!

I'll try it this way.

In your opinion, what is the central theme of the Bible?
What message, what inspiration, do you acquire from the bible?
What truths do you find?