In your opinion why are you not Roman Catholic?

[byzantine catholic]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

[BillBrown]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

My son converted to Catholicism and I have been studying it with a similar idea in mind. There are many things I find appealing about it.
My main stumbling block is the veneration of Mary. I can't get my mind around it.

[markd]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:Cause I don't believe in god.:)

[ogibillm]

My son converted to Catholicism and I have been studying it with a similar idea in mind. There are many things I find appealing about it.
My main stumbling block is the veneration of Mary. I can't get my mind around it.
how do you mean?

[BillBrown]

how do you mean?

I don't want to appear to be disrespectful, because I'm not.
Mary seems to have been elevated to a goddess, by the Catholic Church.
To a lifelong Protestant, that is hard to understand.

[terri910]

I don't want to appear to be disrespectful, because I'm not.
Mary seems to have been elevated to a goddess, by the Catholic Church.
To a lifelong Protestant, that is hard to understand.
The operative word in your post above, BillBrown, is "seems."

Things are not always as they seem. The Catholic Church has not elevated Mary to a "goddess."

I urge you to study what the Church teaches. It may not be as difficult to get your head around what it teaches, as it is to get your head around what you think it teaches. As a convert, myself, I can vouch for this! ;)

[Meriweather]

I don't want to appear to be disrespectful, because I'm not.
Mary seems to have been elevated to a goddess, by the Catholic Church.
To a lifelong Protestant, that is hard to understand.

Mary as "goddess" is soley a non-Catholic observation--and a misconception. Catholics honor the mother of Jesus, and acknowledge her role in bringing Christ to the world. We acknowledge her submission to the will of God. Catholics also honor other Saints. We are very clear on who is God and who is not. How we honor Mary is quite different from the way we worship God. Catholics have difficulty understanding how Protestants cannot see this difference. ;)

[ogibillm]

The operative word in your post above, BillBrown, is "seems."

Things are not always as they seem. The Catholic Church has not elevated Mary to a "goddess."

I urge you to study what the Church teaches. It may not be as difficult to get your head around what it teaches, as it is to get your head around what you think it teaches. As a convert, myself, I can vouch for this! ;)

i don't think i can add to this at all. well said terri

[CID_0687]

I'm not Catholic for the same reason I'm not Methodist, or Baptist, or Episcopal (anymore)

It's not how I feel comfortable worshiping...I'm comfortable in a Pentecostal service, my beliefs as to God and the Bible are closer to the Pentecostal denomination than any other...

[smyrna]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

I don't speak Latin.

[byzantine catholic]

Good job guys!:)Mary is venerated as the Mother of God and the queen of Heaven!:dance:She is also queen of all the saints as well.:shhh:

[byzantine catholic]

I don't speak Latin.After the Second Vatican Council most masses are in English!:)

[byzantine catholic]

I don't speak Latin.Why not! Latin is the best language! Take it from somebody who has 4 years of Latin.:dance::):lol:

[ogibillm]

After the Second Vatican Council most masses are in English!:)

at least here in the states ;)

[byzantine catholic]

at least here in the states ;)And in England, Wales, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, and the U.S.:)

[byzantine catholic]

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.
Amen.
Dominus vobiscum.
Et cum spirito tuo.
Pax vobiscum.
Dum spiro spero.:lol:SC!

[Alaric]

Because I believe that the falling away mentioned in Acts 20, 2 Thes 2, Matt 24, 2 TIm 3 & 5, 2 Peter 2, Jude, and Rev 2 was already underway by the end of the first century. The church was schism-ed and facing "damnable heresies," and so creeds were created by men - men attempting to do their level best without inspiration, but still men.

I've asked the same question of Protestants who insist that the great falling away has not yet occurred many times - if you don't think there was a falling away then there is no justification in being Protestant because then the reformation by definition was a falling away. But if you think there was a falling away already then there is justification in a reformation. However I also think that the reformation was just a continuation of that same falling away, it further diluted and flat out discarded some of the truths held in the Catholic church.

To my way of seeing it there are three choices:

The Catholic church is the pure and complete church.
The Catholic church is not the pure and complete church and breakoffs are the further fruit of apostacy, therfore a divine restoration of the Church was necessary to re-establish a Church with a fullness of doctrine.
There is no complete Church of Jesus Christ on Earth with a fullness of doctrine.



I believe #2, so that is why I'm not Catholic. However, of the sects of men, I think that the Catholic is by far the most interesting and it contains a massive amount of truth.

[THE LIGHT]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

Because to me, salvation is not based on what church you belong to but rather on the simple basis of knowing Jesus as you saviour. As for the Roman Catholic part, I disagree with various parts of their doctrine. However, as I have said before, the Bible says that Jesus is the one and only way to heaven and if we believe in him that is what matters most.:hug:

[THE LIGHT]

Why not! Latin is the best language! Take it from somebody who has 4 years of Latin.:dance::):lol:

Sweet!!!

[CID_0687]

Because to me, salvation is not based on what church you belong to but rather on the simple basis of knowing Jesus as you saviour. As for the Roman Catholic part, I disagree with various parts of their doctrine. However, as I have said before, the Bible says that Jesus is the one and only way to heaven and if we believe in him that is what matters most.:hug:
Amen

[byzantine catholic]

really?Yep!:)

[byzantine catholic]

Because to me, salvation is not based on what church you belong to but rather on the simple basis of knowing Jesus as you saviour. As for the Roman Catholic part, I disagree with various parts of their doctrine. However, as I have said before, the Bible says that Jesus is the one and only way to heaven and if we believe in him that is what matters most.:hug:Amen!:hug:

[byzantine catholic]

Sweet!!!Yep I love it!:)

[byzantine catholic]

Why would you need to speak Latin? Roman Catholic masses have not been in Latin for a long time. The bible has always been translated in English.Since 1970. Although I heard Pope Benedict XVI wanted to put the Eucharistic Prayer in Latin by 2011 in the mass.:)

[JenyEliza]

I am a cradle Catholic. :mrgreen:

So are my twinlets.

[Alaric]

The bible has always been translated in English.

?

:think:

[terri910]

?

:think:
yeah, I know. "Always" is, I think, just a teeeeeeny bit longer than JJohnson meant. :)

[byzantine catholic]

Why would you need to speak Latin? Roman Catholic masses have not been in Latin for a long time. The bible has always been translated in English.Um the Bible was first in Hebrew, then in Greek, then in Latin, then in the vernacular.:)

[blazer]

Because to me, salvation is not based on what church you belong to but rather on the simple basis of knowing Jesus as you saviour. As for the Roman Catholic part, I disagree with various parts of their doctrine. However, as I have said before, the Bible says that Jesus is the one and only way to heaven and if we believe in him that is what matters most.:hug:

:clap: :hug:

[Lie Sniper]

1 Praying to Mary.
2 Hierarchy of holiness, beginning with the Most Holy Father.
3 Paying Penance for forgiveness. Indulgences.
4 Forgiveness granted through another human being.
5 Works earning your way to heaven.

I could be misunderstanding any of these so please feel free to clarify. :)

[byzantine catholic]

1 Praying to Mary.
2 Hierarchy of holiness, beginning with the Most Holy Father.
3 Paying Penance for forgiveness. Indulgences.
4 Forgiveness granted through another human being.
5 Works earning your way to heaven.

I could be misunderstanding any of these so please feel free to clarify. :)We do not pray to Mary. We pray for Mary to interceede our prayers to God. The hierarchy was started in the earliest days of the Christian Church! Indulgences are like tithes basically which you are giving to God. The priest is interceeding to God for you and Catholics also believe in private penance as well. Good works like helping people are good ways to show your faith.:)

[Meriweather]

1 Praying to Mary.

Catholics believe all members, either still in this world, or passed on, remain alive in the body of Christ. Asking Mary or any of the saints to pray for us is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for us.

2 Hierarchy of holiness, beginning with the Most Holy Father.

The Holy Father is known as the servant to the servants of God. He has greater responsibility is all.

3 Paying Penance for forgiveness. Indulgences.

If this was ever much of a practice in the Church, it was long ago. I doubt paying for forgiveness was ever a practice, but I haven't researched it. Indulgences were misused for a time, probably hundreds of years before we were born.

4 Forgiveness granted through another human being.

God forgives sin. The practice of Penance/Reconciliation is in recognition that sin never affects just the individual, but the entire community. Not only is the penitent asking God's forgiveness, but the forgiveness of the community.

5 Works earning your way to heaven.

Catholics do not believe one may earn his way to heaven. We are, however, expected to put our faith into action. There are physical and spiritual works of mercy we are expected to abide by. Can we do them perfectly enough to earn a free pass into heaven? No. But that does not excuse us from works, either.

I could be misunderstanding any of these so please feel free to clarify. :)

These are common misunderstandings.

[byzantine catholic]

Catholics believe all members, either still in this world, or passed on, remain alive in the body of Christ. Asking Mary or any of the saints to pray for us is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for us.



The Holy Father is known as the servant to the servants of God. He has greater responsibility is all.



If this was ever much of a practice in the Church, it was long ago. I doubt paying for forgiveness was ever a practice, but I haven't researched it. Indulgences were misused for a time, probably hundreds of years before we were born.



God forgives sin. The practice of Penance/Reconciliation is in recognition that sin never affects just the individual, but the entire community. Not only is the penitent asking God's forgiveness, but the forgiveness of the community.



Catholics do not believe one may earn his way to heaven. We are, however, expected to put our faith into action. There are physical and spiritual works of mercy we are expected to abide by. Can we do them perfectly enough to earn a free pass into heaven? No. But that does not excuse us from works, either.



These are common misunderstandings.Thanks man!:hug:I hope what I said was right!:eh::lol:

[Meriweather]

Thanks man!:hug:I hope what I said was right!:eh::lol:

You did very well, young byzantine. You make us proud.

[byzantine catholic]

You did very well, young byzantine. You make us proud.Thanks!:)I love the RCC!:dance::lol:

[byzantine catholic]

You did very well, young byzantine. You make us proud.Young?:eh:

[Mimiheart]

Because I don't believe in Jesus.

[birdonawire]

A long time ago I was very disrespectful to and about Catholics and their beliefs concerning Mary.

That was very stupid of me because I didn't know a darn thing about them only what I had heard.

Then I had a "experience" that changed me to the core.

My oldest son was in an accident and lay on life support clinically dead.

I had been going to the small chapel in the hospital with church members and family to pray, on the third day with the doctors still not giving any hope I went to the chapel by myself.

I was sobbing at the alter begging God for my boys life after a time I stopped crying and looked up at the most beautiful stone crucifix I had ever seen I started to sob even harder only this time I was crying for Mary, her son was hurt as bad as mine and he died she had no HOPE ,but I did it changed me.

I got up from the floor where I had been crying and ran to the ICU just in time to hear the Doctor yell at my son to take a breath he had pulled the vent out, he was fine after that my son was healed.

I have nothing but respect for Mary and what she went through and it still makes me cry to this day.

[byzantine catholic]

Because I don't believe in Jesus.What do you believe in?

[Meriweather]

Young?:eh:

Yes! And we expect you to appreciate every moment of your youth! When you can take the pebble from my hand....

[byzantine catholic]

A long time ago I was very disrespectful to and about Catholics and their beliefs concerning Mary.

That was very stupid of me because I didn't know a darn thing about them only what I had heard.

Then I had a "experience" that changed me to the core.

My oldest son was in an accident and lay on life support clinically dead.

I had been going to the small chapel in the hospital with church members and family to pray, on the third day with the doctors still not giving any hope I went to the chapel by myself.

I was sobbing at the alter begging God for my boys life after a time I stopped crying and looked up at the most beautiful stone crucifix I had ever seen I started to sob even harder only this time I was crying for Mary, her son was hurt as bad as mine and he died she had no HOPE ,but I did it changed me.

I got up from the floor where I had been crying and ran to the ICU just in time to hear the Doctor yell at my son to take a breath he had pulled the vent out, he was fine after that my son was healed.

I have nothing but respect for Mary and what she went through and it still makes me cry to this day.Thank you that was a good story!:hug:

[Mimiheart]

What do you believe in?
G-d.

[Lie Sniper]

We do not pray to Mary. We pray for Mary to interceede our prayers to God.

Can you show me where to find this directive in scripture?


The hierarchy was started in the earliest days of the Christian Church!

Mathew 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your Father, because you only have one Father who is in heaven.

Indulgences are like tithes basically which you are giving to God.

Indulgences are prepayment for the forgiveness of sins you have yet to commit.

The priest is interceeding to God for you and Catholics also believe in private penance as well.

I thought Jesus is the interceder to God. Please show me in scripture where it says I need a human being more holy than me to intercede and I will study it. How does a Priests' prayers get heard more than any other.

Good works like helping people are good ways to show your faith.:)

I can agree with this. :)

[byzantine catholic]

G-d.Are you Jewish?

[byzantine catholic]

Can you show me where to find this directive in scripture?





Mathew 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your Father, because you only have one Father who is in heaven.




Indulgences are prepayment for the forgiveness of sins you have yet to commit.




I thought Jesus is the interceder to God. Please show me in scripture where it says I need a human being more holy than me to intercede and I will study it. How does a Priests' prayers get heard more than any other.




I can agree with this. :)Well you ask your family to pay for you and if I am not mistaken Lutherans believe in saints.
This quote is taken out of quote by Protestants and spirutual fathers are used in the rest of the Bible and your pastors are called reverends which come from God's name.
Indulgences are the relievement of punishment caused by sin.
Look at James 5:16
Thank you!:)

[Lie Sniper]

Thank you!:)Whoops some of my response is in the quote sorry!

Would you mind fixing it?:rolleyes::naughty::lol:

[Mimiheart]

Are you Jewish?Bat Noach--righteous gentile.

[Lie Sniper]

Catholics believe all members, either still in this world, or passed on, remain alive in the body of Christ. Asking Mary or any of the saints to pray for us is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for us.

So it would be OK to lead Mass or respond in confession with, hail Ed, Joe, Dave, etc.. full of grace....etc....:eh:



The Holy Father is known as the servant to the servants of God. He has greater responsibility is all.


Can you explain, servant to the servants of God? Would that be servants to us?






Catholics do not believe one may earn his way to heaven. We are, however, expected to put our faith into action. There are physical and spiritual works of mercy we are expected to abide by. Can we do them perfectly enough to earn a free pass into heaven? No. But that does not excuse us from works, either.

I can agree with this. :)



Why do Catholics only offer Communion to Catholics and not all who profess to believe in Christ?

[byzantine catholic]

So it would be OK to lead Mass or respond in confession with, hail Ed, Joe, Dave, etc.. full of grace....etc....:eh:





Can you explain, servant to the servants of God? Would that be servants to us?








I can agree with this. :)



Why do Catholics only offer Communion to Catholics and not all who profess to believe in Christ?Because the saints are supposed to be the ones who look out for ya!:shhh:The Pope is the vicar of Christ and is speaking to his "flock of sheep" the word of God.:dance:Good.:lol:Because those who are not in his Church cannot reap the benefits of his true Body and Blood, his spotless victim!

[byzantine catholic]

Bat Noach--righteous gentile.Will you ever reap the benefits of being fully Jewish!:)

[Meriweather]

So it would be OK to lead Mass or respond in confession with, hail Ed, Joe, Dave, etc.. full of grace....etc....:eh:

The Hail Mary is not said during Mass or even inside the confessional. The Hail Mary is part of the rosary where we reflect upon the events and mysteries surrounding Jesus' life.

For me, meditating using the rosary is a different kind of prayer where I might ask othes (say my grandparents) to pray for me. Then, it is not "Grandma, full of grace," either. It's just Grandma.

I've had a bit of trouble this year, and did ask my grandmothers to pray for me. I now think of this as the time both my grandmothers ratted me out. I needed some help, so I prayed, and I asked my grandmothers to pray, too. The next morning I get a call from my frantic mother asking me what was going on. She had two dreams the night before where my grandmothers, one after the other, showed up saying I was in trouble, needed help, but wouldn't ask for it--and that she should call me.

Can you explain, servant to the servants of God? Would that be servants to us?

Remember Jesus washing the feet of his apostles to show them the example he wished for them to follow? It's like that.


Why do Catholics only offer Communion to Catholics and not all who profess to believe in Christ?

Catholics believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Many Protestant denominations do not. We do not offer others something in which they do not believe.

[Mimiheart]

Will you ever reap the benefits of being fully Jewish!:)I see no reason to convert. I participate in most of the holidays, food, friendship, and knowledge without having to worry about 613 laws. I follow many of them anyhow, but I'm perfectly happy with my religion as is.

[Quantrill]

To byzantine catholic

There are many reasons I could give as to why I could not be Roman Catholic. But they all have their root in one.

That is, because the authority of the Roman Church rests in the Church and not the Scriptures.

Quantrill

[Meriweather]

No disrespect intended, just a question I've always wanted to ask. In regard to what you posted above (quoted)--where in the Bible does it say that Mary is the Queen of Saints and the Queen of Heaven. If I were on the politics forum, I'd ask for links. So, on this forum, how do I ask for "links"? Again, I'm trying to understand. I do realize the Roman Catholic Church has many things written by the Church and that those writings are to be looked at for guidance. But where in the Bible does it support what you say? Thanks.

No disrespect taken; it is an honest question. The first thing one should recognize about Catholics addressing Mary as the Queen of Heaven, is that this came about in the very early days and liturgies of the Church based on Biblical references to Jesus as King. Very simply put, it is no more and no less that the mother of a King is a ______? (Queen).

Mary was chosen by God to have a role in the world's redemption. She gave birth to our Savior; she reared him; she was at the foot of the cross while he died; she was present at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples. As Jesus was called the new Adam, this one obedient to God's will, so was Mary considered the new Eve--one who was also obedient to God's will.

You might also consider Revelation, Chapter 12. Who would you say is the woman crowned with twelve stars, laboring to give birth?

[meggers49]

I don't want to appear to be disrespectful, because I'm not.
Mary seems to have been elevated to a goddess, by the Catholic Church.
To a lifelong Protestant, that is hard to understand.

and many lifelong Protestants and many Protestant denominations also venerate her.

verb: venerate. not: worship.

[meggers49]

I don't speak Latin.

neither do a lot of Catholics. including clergy

[meggers49]

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.
Amen.
Dominus vobiscum.
Et cum spirito tuo.
Pax vobiscum.
Dum spiro spero.:lol:SC!

Et cum spiritu tuo

(my mom always joked that was the Pope's phone number. Etcum spiri 2,2,0.

[hben]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

Because I am Baptist. Why are you not Baptist? :hug:

[terri910]

There are many reasons I could give as to why I could not be Roman Catholic. But they all have their root in one.

That is, because the authority of the Roman Church rests in the Church and not the Scriptures.

Quantrill
It was the authority of the Church (established by Jesus and guided and protected by the Holy Spirit) that identified Scripture.

[terri910]

Because I am Baptist. What are you not Baptist? :hug:
I know why I am no longer Baptist.

[hben]

The operative word in your post above, BillBrown, is "seems."

Things are not always as they seem. The Catholic Church has not elevated Mary to a "goddess."

I urge you to study what the Church teaches. It may not be as difficult to get your head around what it teaches, as it is to get your head around what you think it teaches. As a convert, myself, I can vouch for this! ;)

Don't the Catholics pray to her? What is "Hail Mary" all about? The only Hail Mary I understand is the one Roger Staubach threw to Drew Pearson and won the game for the Cowboys with in the last two minutes of play. :cool:

[hben]

Mary as "goddess" is soley a non-Catholic observation--and a misconception. Catholics honor the mother of Jesus, and acknowledge her role in bringing Christ to the world. We acknowledge her submission to the will of God. Catholics also honor other Saints. We are very clear on who is God and who is not. How we honor Mary is quite different from the way we worship God. Catholics have difficulty understanding how Protestants cannot see this difference. ;)

Where do they get this from the scriptures? Jesus never told us to speak to His mother after she was dead and gone, did He?

[hben]

Good job guys!:)Mary is venerated as the Mother of God and the queen of Heaven!:dance:She is also queen of all the saints as well.:shhh:

Where did Jesus give her such a title or positition according to Catholics?

[Dancer]

Don't the Catholics pray to her? What is "Hail Mary" all about? The only Hail Mary I understand is the one Roger Staubach threw to Drew Pearson and won the game for the Cowboys with in the last two minutes of play. :cool:Haven't we had this conversation before?

Mary isn't worshipped, she is talked to because she is alive in Christ. She is not sleeping the sleep of the dead. She is a living saint with the Lord in heaven. Through the Lord, she hears us speak to her (as do our loved ones who reside with the Lord in heaven) and intercedes with the Lord on our behalf.

Prayer is communication with the unseen. Worship is something more than just prayer.

[Lie Sniper]

The Hail Mary is not said during Mass or even inside the confessional. The Hail Mary is part of the rosary where we reflect upon the events and mysteries surrounding Jesus' life.

For me, meditating using the rosary is a different kind of prayer where I might ask othes (say my grandparents) to pray for me. Then, it is not "Grandma, full of grace," either. It's just Grandma.

I've had a bit of trouble this year, and did ask my grandmothers to pray for me. I now think of this as the time both my grandmothers ratted me out. I needed some help, so I prayed, and I asked my grandmothers to pray, too. The next morning I get a call from my frantic mother asking me what was going on. She had two dreams the night before where my grandmothers, one after the other, showed up saying I was in trouble, needed help, but wouldn't ask for it--and that she should call me.



Remember Jesus washing the feet of his apostles to show them the example he wished for them to follow? It's like that.




Catholics believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Many Protestant denominations do not. We do not offer others something in which they do not believe.

Thanks Meri! You seem very knowledgeable in the ways of the Catholic Church. Your understanding and explanation doesn't make it sound so bad.:razz:;):cool:

[hben]

Why not! Latin is the best language! Take it from somebody who has 4 years of Latin.:dance::):lol:

Why not pass the gospel on in the native language of whosoever will come? That makes more sense to me.

[Dancer]

Where do they get this from the scriptures? Jesus never told us to speak to His mother after she was dead and gone, did He?And yet, he spoke to Lazarus after he was dead and gone...didn't he?

[Celtic Pax]

I was a Catholic until my mid 20s but no longer am Catholic. Found the Catholic faith (or church) too confining in many ways. Did not get a sense of personal faith in the church. Felt too much emphasis placed on church rules rather than faith based on belief. Also, was very disturbed by church history and abuse of power. Also, found restrictions on women's role in the church to be out of touch with early church traditions. Church rituals seemed to get in the way of belief too often for me. Generally, the Catholic Church did not meet my spiritual needs as I grew older.

[Dancer]

Why not pass the gospel on in the native language of whosoever will come? That makes more sense to me.Because some people misinterpret the words that have more than one meaning.

[hben]

Because I believe that the falling away mentioned in Acts 20, 2 Thes 2, Matt 24, 2 TIm 3 & 5, 2 Peter 2, Jude, and Rev 2 was already underway by the end of the first century. The church was schism-ed and facing "damnable heresies," and so creeds were created by men - men attempting to do their level best without inspiration, but still men.

I've asked the same question of Protestants who insist that the great falling away has not yet occurred many times - if you don't think there was a falling away then there is no justification in being Protestant because then the reformation by definition was a falling away. But if you think there was a falling away already then there is justification in a reformation. However I also think that the reformation was just a continuation of that same falling away, it further diluted and flat out discarded some of the truths held in the Catholic church.


To my way of seeing it there are three choices:
The Catholic church is the pure and complete church.
The Catholic church is not the pure and complete church and breakoffs are the further fruit of apostacy, therfore a divine restoration of the Church was necessary to re-establish a Church with a fullness of doctrine.
There is no complete Church of Jesus Christ on Earth with a fullness of doctrine.


I believe #2, so that is why I'm not Catholic. However, of the sects of men, I think that the Catholic is by far the most interesting and it contains a massive amount of truth.

The true church is wherever the truth of the gospel is being preached and taught. If the Catholic Church carried on it's name, but got farther away from teaching the truth while others continued teaching the truth without the name, then the name became meaningless. The truth being taught is all that matters no matter what name is on the sign in front of the building. IMHO

[terri910]

Don't the Catholics pray to her?
Did you read Meri's response to this? It was spot on.

What is "Hail Mary" all about?
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of they womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

Greeting Mary as the Angel did, and then asking Jesus' mother to pray for us. It's really quite straightforward. It is based, as Meri explained earlier, in our belief in the communion of saints -- that believers whether here on earth or in heaven are not separated but joined in the body of Christ. Thus we can ask not only our friends and family here on earth to pray for us, but for those in heaven, as well. That's what the "Hail Mary" is all about.

The only Hail Mary I understand is the one Roger Staubach threw to Drew Pearson and won the game for the Cowboys with in the last two minutes of play. :cool:
So we're even. I don't understand football. *L*

[Lie Sniper]

The true church is wherever the truth of the gospel is being preached and taught. If the Catholic Church carried on it's name, but got farther away from teaching the truth while others continued teaching the truth without the name, then the name became meaningless. The truth being taught is all that matters no matter what name is on the sign in front of the building. IMHO

I agree with this post, but,

How do you know the truth when you see it?
You can do all the study, prayer, worship you want, and in the end, you will still choose to believe what your own sinful, self-righteous, imperfect heart and mind chooses to believe. IMO.

[CID_0687]

The true church is wherever the truth of the gospel is being preached and taught. If the Catholic Church carried on it's name, but got farther away from teaching the truth while others continued teaching the truth without the name, then the name became meaningless. The truth being taught is all that matters no matter what name is on the sign in front of the building. IMHO
I'm widju

[5thIDSoldier]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

I do not subscribe to the doctrines which the catholic church teaches.

[Buffalo]

History. And I will leave it at that as I respect people who are Catholics.

[CID_0687]

I agree with this post, but,

How do you know the truth when you see it?
You can do all the study, prayer, worship you want, and in the end, you will still choose to believe what your own sinful, self-righteous, imperfect heart and mind chooses to believe. IMO.
It lines up with the Word of God. Many churches do yet many do not. This is why God gave us the gift of discernment.

[Lie Sniper]

It lines up with the Word of God. Many churches do yet many do not. This is why God gave us the gift of discernment.

On the surface your post makes sense and sounds easy.
However, wouldn't you say the mere number of denominations is a strong rebuttal to this statement?
If in fact God gives us the gift of discernment, I would say God gives this gift to very few.

[Celtic Pax]

On the surface your post makes sense and sounds easy.
However, wouldn't you say the mere number of denominations is a strong rebuttal to this statement?
If in fact God gives us the gift of discernment, I would say God gives this gift to very few.Seems to me that most distinctions between protestant sects have more to do with man made doctrine instead of the search for truth.

[hben]

We do not pray to Mary. We pray for Mary to interceede our prayers to God.

Why pray for anyone who is already dead and gone to heaven. Why do you need Mary to intercede for you whenever the Bible says that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both intercessors for us? Where does it say Mary has the power to do what the Son and the Spirit do?

The hierarchy was started in the earliest days of the Christian Church!

Why was it started, and why do Catholics think it is needed?


Indulgences are like tithes basically which you are giving to God.

Where did the practice originate, and what scripture do they use to support it?

The priest is interceeding to God for you and Catholics also believe in private penance as well.

Why do Catholics think they need a priest or anyone to intercede for them? Why don't they just go to their Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus the Son?

Good works like helping people are good ways to show your faith.:)

There is nothing wrong with helping people, but I don't believe it adds anything to salvation, and that is what I thought such good works was thought to do.

[5thIDSoldier]

No disrespect taken; it is an honest question. The first thing one should recognize about Catholics addressing Mary as the Queen of Heaven, is that this came about in the very early days and liturgies of the Church based on Biblical references to Jesus as King. Very simply put, it is no more and no less that the mother of a King is a ______? (Queen).

Mary was chosen by God to have a role in the world's redemption. She gave birth to our Savior; she reared him; she was at the foot of the cross while he died; she was present at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples. As Jesus was called the new Adam, this one obedient to God's will, so was Mary considered the new Eve--one who was also obedient to God's will.

You might also consider Revelation, Chapter 12. Who would you say is the woman crowned with twelve stars, laboring to give birth?

But where in the Bible does it say we are to pray to her and ask her to intercede when the Bible clearly states there is only ONE intercessor between God and man, that being Jesus?

[Lie Sniper]

Seems to me that most distinctions between protestant sects have more to do with man made doctrine instead of the search for truth.

This same statement could me made about the Catholic Church.
Leading to the protestant reformation...

We choose to believe what are imperfect hearts and minds want to believe. All doctrine has parts that are man made.

All Christian denominations are at the very least created through some bible interpretation, however small. Then further scripture is found to back up that assertion.

So are they all correct? Are they all wrong?

[CID_0687]

On the surface your post makes sense and sounds easy.
However, wouldn't you say the mere number of denominations is a strong rebuttal to this statement?
If in fact God gives us the gift of discernment, I would say God gives this gift to very few.
Well, it is one of the 9 spiritual gifts that Paul wrote of...As far as the number of denominations go....Denominations are man made, no where in scripture does it speak of Baptists (aside from John), or Catholics, or Methodists, or Presbyterians, or Pentecostals(aside from those in the upper room)....Many denominations have been founded on one verse, or chapter of scripture...A group of like minded folks got together and said..."That's how we want our church to be." Anything wrong with that? Yes and no....Yes if you are not taking the Whole Word of God into account....No as long as you are taking the whole Word of God into account. Since I've been a Christian, and since I've been in the ministry I've sung and preached in many churches, of many denominations...some that I have been in have been have been stagnant....others have had a fire for Christ....it doesn't always come down to the denomination, but many times to the local church leadership...I was born and raised Episcopal....the first minister to ever have an impact on my life was my Episcopal Priest...Father Tooey....The man was on fire for God, he had a heart to serve God and to serve others....He moved back to Ireland...Father Wright came in...and it almost seemed as if the love of Christ left the church.

Discernment is real...God gives it to more than you realize...It's all about the fruit one bears...is it sweet or bitter?

[Meriweather]

Thanks. I cannot seem to find in the Bible where Jesus, himself, acknowleges himself with the word "King". Yes he was asked that, "Are you King of the Jews". But there must be something in Scripture where he acknowledges this title--or is there? I never thought about this until now, so I'm still searching to try to find this answer.

Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of God, even calls it, "My kingdom." But he also had a different view of kingship shown in the washing of the feet--the servant king.

Also, about the woman in Revelations. I have read where some believe this is Mary (Jesus' Mother) and where some don't. Personally (right now, for me), I have a hard time seeing how this could be Mary. For me to do so will require I'd have to rethink my interpretation of what I see in Revelations. However, I am not fixed in my thinking this is not Mary. You know how Revelations is--it is beyond brilliant in the magnitude of symbolism--so I am open to travel through it with different lenses.


Exactly. It could mean Mary; but it could be symbolism for the Church as a whole.

[Meriweather]

Where do they get this from the scriptures? Jesus never told us to speak to His mother after she was dead and gone, did He?

Scripture tells us that the Body of Christ is made up of both the living and the dead--that we are all alive in Christ.

[Meriweather]

But where in the Bible does it say we are to pray to her and ask her to intercede when the Bible clearly states there is only ONE intercessor between God and man, that being Jesus?

In both Acts and Paul's letters we find instances of people praying for each other. Why do you suppose they were all praying for each other if there is only one intercessor between God and man? I ask you this because I need to better understand your thinking on this matter.

As was said earlier, Catholics believe the Body of Christ is made up of both the living and the dead. We are all alive in Christ. Therefore, it makes no difference in asking for prayers from both the living and the dead--it's all one body. The body of Christ prays together, and we pray for each other. Therefore, to me it is a very simple matter.

[CID_0687]

Jesus never says that he is King...Jesus never says that He is God...He calls himself the Son of God, and the Son of Man....but we can all say that we are God's child....He did say that He and the Father are one...that is the only reference, to the best of my knowledge, where Jesus makes any claim to His deity...

[Meriweather]

But Jesus does not say He is King. He does say "my Kingdom is not of this world". I cannot find, anywhere (if it exists at all) where Jesus Himself says He is King. Certainly not of this world, of course.

Then how can Mary be called a Queen, when Jesus never called Himself one?

John Chapter 18

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Catholics, and many Christians for that matter, do think of Jesus as King, and of having a spiritual kingdom. If you do not follow this line of thought, and do not think of Jesus as 'King', then naturally, you cannot connect Mary being referred to as 'Queen.' I don't see following different lines of thinking as a huge problem.

[Dancer]

It has always been my understanding that Jesus is God's way of being King of us in response to Israel requesting a human king in the OT.

[BillBrown]

If we assume that Mary is Queen, wouldn't Joseph be King and Jesus a Prince?

If we start extrapolating from scripture, rather than taking it at face value, we can get all kinds of interpretations.

[RickRhetoric]

I've attended Catholic Churches and I like Catholicism, but it's very ceremonious. I'm a sort of non-denominational Protestant with strong Modern Day Baptist leanings. You go to a Baptist church on Sunday, worship, pray, sing a few songs and go home. It's simple -- and lots of parking too!

[CID_0687]

Well it is quite clear by what I posted, along with the Biblical Scripture to support it, that Jesus acknowledges a Kingdom "not of this world". But I cannot find anywhere where He says He is King. And of course, a Kingdom not of this world, would mean He isn't King of the material world.

So I wonder, then, if Jesus never (that I can find) says He is "King"--how can any one call someone a Queen? No offense, honest question. If Jesus would not call Himself (He, Himself) King, how can we call Mary Queen? And if Mary is Queen, then Jesus would be Prince, not King...right? Or am I overthinking this?
I see where they are getting this....think of Queen Elizabeth...her son, Charles is now a prince...however, when his mother dies he will be King Charles....now I do believe that Jesus is King, I believe He is God....but as a Pentecostal I do not believe that Mary is more than the mother of Jesus...Other than that, Mary has no significance to me....But, I have many Catholic friends, and this is something they believe...and that's fine...I'm not gonna question anyone's denomination...unless, of course, the denomination goes against the Bible.

[5thIDSoldier]

In both Acts and Paul's letters we find instances of people praying for each other. Why do you suppose they were all praying for each other if there is only one intercessor between God and man? I ask you this because I need to better understand your thinking on this matter.

As was said earlier, Catholics believe the Body of Christ is made up of both the living and the dead. We are all alive in Christ. Therefore, it makes no difference in asking for prayers from both the living and the dead--it's all one body. The body of Christ prays together, and we pray for each other. Therefore, to me it is a very simple matter.

Ok, let me ask it this way: Why would Mary be needed to pray to? Why not Paul, or Timothy? Where is it in scripture that Mary has any power whatsoever to do anything on God's (or Jesus) behalf? I just want to understand the thinking behind that, no disrespect inteded, and I am not trying to start a grand debate on the subject. It's very puzzling to me that I have never seen that anywhere in scripture yet it is apparently a major part of the Catholic faith......

[BillBrown]

I've attended Catholic Churches and I like Catholicism, but it's very ceremonious. I'm a sort of non-denominational Protestant with strong Modern Day Baptist leanings. You go to a Baptist church on Sunday, worship, pray, sing a few songs and go home. It's simple -- and lots of parking too!

I'll probably say this wrong, but what you write about Catholic mass, is one of the things I like about Catholicism.

A Protestant service is more like a bigger version of Sunday School class. We sing a few songs, hear a sermon and go home.

It seems more directed at the congregation than at God.

Catholic mass is more directed at God and feels more like worship.

[Dancer]

Ok, let me ask it this way: Why would Mary be needed to pray to? Why not Paul, or Timothy? Where is it in scripture that Mary has any power whatsoever to do anything on God's (or Jesus) behalf? I just want to understand the thinking behind that, no disrespect inteded, and I am not trying to start a grand debate on the subject. It's very puzzling to me that I have never seen that anywhere in scripture yet it is apparently a major part of the Catholic faith......People do pray to St. Paul and St. Timothy for intercessions as well.

Nowhere do Catholics pray to Mary to do ANYTHING on God's behalf. They pray to Mary to SPEAK to God on OUR behalf.

[Meriweather]

Ok, let me ask it this way: Why would Mary be needed to pray to? Why not Paul, or Timothy? Where is it in scripture that Mary has any power whatsoever to do anything on God's (or Jesus) behalf? I just want to understand the thinking behind that, no disrespect inteded, and I am not trying to start a grand debate on the subject. It's very puzzling to me that I have never seen that anywhere in scripture yet it is apparently a major part of the Catholic faith......


I guess I never thought of it in terms of needing to pray to Mary any more than I've thought twice about asking for prayers, or praying for my family, friends, neighbors, and even enemies. Absolutely, one could ask Paul or Timothy for prayers.

Where I see a difference in our thinking, is that you seem to equate asking Mary for prayers as an end run around God or using an intercessor because somehow our own prayers are not heard. Keep in mind that is a faulty interpretation for what is happening.

I cannot emphasize enough that in Catholic thought, praying with the Saints and loved ones who have passed on is no different than praying with one's church congregation for peace in our lives and forgiveness of sins. "Where two or three are gathered in my name..." might give you a more accurate picture. Do you feel it is strange to pray as a member of a group?

The last thing we should address is your statement that Mary has power to do something on God's behalf. How does including Mary's prayers within a prayer group give HER the power to act for God anymore than including ME in your prayer group gives me the power to act for God?

[Meriweather]

But why, then, on the Cross, did Jesus call out to His Father and not to Mary? Jesus spoke directly to God--not through His mother to speak to His Father. Why the need for the "liason" Mary?

You don't think Mary was praying as well? You can't imagine the possibility of Mary and Jesus praying together at this time?

Praying to God with someone is different than praying to someone. When you ask someone to pray for you or with you, do you consider that praying to them?

Again, it seems to me that Protestants may have reached a wrong conclusion about Catholics asking Mary and other saints to join in with our prayers.

[Dancer]

Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am.

[5thIDSoldier]

I guess I never thought of it in terms of needing to pray to Mary any more than I've thought twice about asking for prayers, or praying for my family, friends, neighbors, and even enemies. Absolutely, one could ask Paul or Timothy for prayers.

Where I see a difference in our thinking, is that you seem to equate asking Mary for prayers as an end run around God or using an intercessor because somehow our own prayers are not heard. Keep in mind that is a faulty interpretation for what is happening.

I cannot emphasize enough that in Catholic thought, praying with the Saints and loved ones who have passed on is no different than praying with one's church congregation for peace in our lives and forgiveness of sins. "Where two or three are gathered in my name..." might give you a more accurate picture. Do you feel it is strange to pray as a member of a group?

The last thing we should address is your statement that Mary has power to do something on God's behalf. How does including Mary's prayers within a prayer group give HER the power to act for God anymore than including ME in your prayer group gives me the power to act for God?

I do not see it as strange to pray in a group. I do that all the time. We do not pray to the dead or to "saints". We pray to God alone through Jesus or in his name alone. I guess that sums up the difference and why I did not understand why that is the teaching of your church. I do appreciate your expanding your answer to eduacte me on the Catholic position!

[Mikko]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

I wasn't raised Roman Catholic, and I see no reason to convert.:)

[RickRhetoric]

I'll probably say this wrong, but what you write about Catholic mass, is one of the things I like about Catholicism.

A Protestant service is more like a bigger version of Sunday School class. We sing a few songs, hear a sermon and go home.

It seems more directed at the congregation than at God.

Catholic mass is more directed at God and feels more like worship.

You said it right. Following mass, I think one does feel more like having worshipped. But even in the rather casual atmosphere of modern Baptist churches, I think worship mostly has to do with sincerity in the heart. I go to give thanks, worship, and to show others that I believe in God too. I don't pray or ask the Lord for anything because I don't think it works. But I do thank him for every gift he presents to me.

The service I attend now is even more ... modern. It begins at eight on Sunday mornings. It's geared to attract young people, but a lot of old people go too, because its early and they get it over with and to to buffet. This early morning service is growing by leaps and bounds. They're going to have to move it to the main sanctuary to accomodate all the new people.

The early one-hour service is really cool. It has a band; congregants sing new Christian rock songs; jump up and down and hold hands if they want to; socialize and go home or hang around for coffee and homemade goodies -- pretty cool. I don't think God wants worshipping him to be a drag.

[LeroyBrown]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

I'm not wanderin' so I am not Roman.;)

[Meriweather]

If I were dropped onto this Earth, for the first time, and given a KJV Bible, I cannot see what you see, nor find some of what you say (or others). That is all I am saying. This has always been the concern I've had, personally. And I mean no offense. I don't find anything in the Bible that supports Mary being called a Queen--can you? Nor do I find Jesus calling Himself "King"--It is quite obvious He has a Kingdom (but NOT of this world--He never gave Himself that title "King"--and the only Crown He received by this worldly kingdom, was made of thorns). So how can anyone crown Mary a Queen? If to do so, as Cid suggested, I am to think of Prince Charles waiting for his mother to die for him to be King--I still don't follow--for Charles is a Prince waiting to be handed down a wordly "kingdom" by way of his mother. Also, you don't even know what faith I am, or have been,--so don't assume please.

What I find fascinating about religions and the Religion Forum is all the various perspectives that abound. I love this. People see things from all different viewpoints, and I like traveling from viewpoint to viewpoint to try and see for myself what others are seeing. I like seeing God every which way possible.

Queen is a word used to describe. Jesus spoke of a Kingdom. A Kindgom has a King. God is King, I believe Jesus is one with God, therefore I can think of Him as a King. God selected Mary for a particular role. Just as I can think of Jesus as King, it is not much of a step for me to honor the mother of the King as Queen. Nor is it much of a step for me to see her perhaps as a fourteen/fifteen year old girl with a lot on her shoulders. My heart breaks for her as I picture her standing at the foot of the cross. All these are pictures/descriptions I have of Mary. What is more quizzical? Thinking of her as a Queen with a specific role God chose for her as the mother of Jesus? Or thinking of her as fourteen years old?

Yet both are easy for me. Yes, I do get lost sometimes, but quite often I can also understand, or come to at least grasp, the thinking behind how other people see things.

[LeroyBrown]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

The serious answer is that God has asked for many things from me but Catholicism is not one of them. If He does then I guess I need to convert.

[Lie Sniper]

I guess I never thought of it in terms of needing to pray to Mary any more than I've thought twice about asking for prayers, or praying for my family, friends, neighbors, and even enemies. Absolutely, one could ask Paul or Timothy for prayers.

Where I see a difference in our thinking, is that you seem to equate asking Mary for prayers as an end run around God or using an intercessor because somehow our own prayers are not heard. Keep in mind that is a faulty interpretation for what is happening.

I cannot emphasize enough that in Catholic thought, praying with the Saints and loved ones who have passed on is no different than praying with one's church congregation for peace in our lives and forgiveness of sins. "Where two or three are gathered in my name..." might give you a more accurate picture. Do you feel it is strange to pray as a member of a group?

The last thing we should address is your statement that Mary has power to do something on God's behalf. How does including Mary's prayers within a prayer group give HER the power to act for God anymore than including ME in your prayer group gives me the power to act for God?

Meri, I understand this and respect your understanding. I have many Catholic friends and relatives, and If they could explain this the way you did I would not be so critical of the Catholic church. However, I do feel there is an inordinate amount of time spent focusing on Mary, and intercession with in the hierarchy up to the Pope. I mean when the Pope came to the US, you would have thought God himself had made an appearance. I get the general idea that humans have been elevated to a position requiring worship and this goes against my understanding of having only one God. I just feel that too much time is spent on things of this world and not on Christ Within the Catholic religion. This of course is my general assertion of the Catholics I know. I do feel that based on your posts you do not fall into this category and you and I can find much common ground.

Can you explain Purgatory?

[bluebird]

I am not Catholic because I am LDS. :)

[BillBrown]

I think a key component that has not been mentioned in this discussion is Apostolic Succession.
I won't elaborate on it because I'm not Catholic and I may misstate it.

If a Catholic would address it, I think it would clarify some of the charges that Catholics hold beliefs that are not found in scripture.

It's a doctrine that makes sense to me. It also causes many Catholic beliefs to make sense to me. Things that I previously couldn't understand.

[Meriweather]

Meri, I understand this and respect your understanding. I have many Catholic friends and relatives, and If they could explain this the way you did I would not be so critical of the Catholic church. However, I do feel there is an inordinate amount of time spent focusing on Mary, and intercession with in the hierarchy up to the Pope. I mean when the Pope came to the US, you would have thought God himself had made an appearance. I get the general idea that humans have been elevated to a position requiring worship and this goes against my understanding of having only one God. I just feel that too much time is spent on things of this world and not on Christ Within the Catholic religion. This of course is my general assertion of the Catholics I know. I do feel that based on your posts you do not fall into this category and you and I can find much common ground.

Can you explain Purgatory?

In Catholic thought, one can die in God's grace and friendship, but be still in need of final purification. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:15 speaks of this.

But if someone's work is burned up, that one will be saved, but only as through fire.

Elsewhere, cleansing fire is spoken of in scripture also. I understand Maccabees is not recognized as Biblical by Protestants, but it is by Catholics. It speaks of the benefits of praying for the dead; also the Book of Job speaks of his sons being purified by Job's sacrifice.

Purgatory is explained as a place for those who are not yet fully purified, so it would be impossible for them to experience the full joys of heaven and of God's presence. The purification of Purgatory prepares them to receive God and His love more fully. Think of it this way: Would you prefer to enter heaven with the capacity of a thimble or the capacity of a big oak barrel?

[Wndrtch]

Because from the top down, they insisted on protecting pedophiles for decades.

Any church that would continue to knowingly put children in harms way, in order to preserve the "reputation" of that church, deserves no loyalty.

[Meriweather]

Because from the top down, they insisted on protecting pedophiles for decades.

As did society as a whole. Families hushed up the matter rather than making it known.

Any church that would continue to knowingly put children in harms way, in order to preserve the "reputation" of that church, deserves no loyalty.

I do agree the Church should have led the way in exposing the presence of pedophiles within society. I am simply pointing out society as a whole, and not just the Church, was guilty of protecting family members guilty of this behavior.

If you are going to turn your back on a Church for this, you might also consider turning your back on all parents because some parents did as much (if not more) hiding away as the Church.

Society and the Church are both cleaning up their act on this. And it's about time for both.

[Meriweather]

Please take this for fact, not as an offense. Purgatory has many similarities to the "images" contained in the true practice of "alchemy". And since many scientists have found themselves within the Church, not having necessarily being "blessed" by the Church, those same scientists also practiced alchemy.

So my question is this: Could the "images" be made the, as you say, "Catholic thought" in some areas--for example, this--purgatory? And the true practice of alchemy is hidden as the mystery it always was (except for the few).

Also, I'm not referring to turning base metal into 24K gold--not that slanted spin on alchemy.

I would say we do not exist in a vacuum and who is to say how outside influences came into play. Alchemy of course, is older than Christianity.

On the other hand, is it then possible that alchemy drew some of its thought from the Bible? The story of Job is well known, and the story of the Maccabees certainly wasn't unknown. Early on, Paul and Peter both spoke of a cleansing fire, although the reference in Peter (to me) is a little more obscure than what Paul speaks about in Corinthians. Other Church writings on the subject occur as early as the fifth century.

[Meriweather]

I think a key component that has not been mentioned in this discussion is Apostolic Succession.
I won't elaborate on it because I'm not Catholic and I may misstate it.

If a Catholic would address it, I think it would clarify some of the charges that Catholics hold beliefs that are not found in scripture.

It's a doctrine that makes sense to me. It also causes many Catholic beliefs to make sense to me. Things that I previously couldn't understand.

Basically Apostolic Succession takes into oral accounts of traditions practiced from the time of the Apostles. The apostles words, customs, and practices were handed down, and some eventually written or referred to in the writings of the early Church Fathers.

[Wndrtch]

As did society as a whole. Families hushed up the matter rather than making it known.

I agree. For many, the idea that a Catholic Priest could do such things, was considered unfathomable.

I do agree the Church should have led the way in exposing the presence of pedophiles within society. I am simply pointing out society as a whole, and not just the Church, was guilty of protecting family members guilty of this behavior.

Society aside for a moment, I would be happy if they had simply turned-in the Priests, and helped them to repent by assisting them through the process. Once they were behind bars, then the Church could administer to their souls.

If you are going to turn your back on a Church for this, you might also consider turning your back on all parents because some parents did as much (if not more) hiding away as the Church.

I kind'a see it as the Church turning it's back on us.

Please understand that I may have "walked-away" from the Cathilic church, but not God.

As near as I can tell, God cares about your relationship with Him, not a church. Jesus simply said to gather with others that love God, and worship together in praise of Him. There was no fine-print saying that the church should be Catholic, Baptist, or other. As far as I'm concerned, 2 people could be standing in the middle of the woods, and if they call up to God, they are in a church.

[hben]

I know why I am no longer Baptist.

Why?

[gpd®]

Why pray for anyone who is already dead and gone to heaven.

When I was Catholic, we learned that Mary didn't die, she was ascended into heaven..thus the celebration of Ascension Day every year.

[hben]

Haven't we had this conversation before?

Mary isn't worshipped, she is talked to because she is alive in Christ. She is not sleeping the sleep of the dead. She is a living saint with the Lord in heaven. Through the Lord, she hears us speak to her (as do our loved ones who reside with the Lord in heaven) and intercedes with the Lord on our behalf.

Prayer is communication with the unseen. Worship is something more than just prayer.

My daddy is alive in Christ, but I stopped talking to him when he departured from this earth and went to heaven to live with Jesus. I no longer ask him for anything. I ask my heavenly Father to meet my needs. Why would anyone pray to anyone but God? It seems like an insult to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to pray to a woman whenever Jesus told us to pray to our Father which art in heaven in His name.

[hben]

And yet, he spoke to Lazarus after he was dead and gone...didn't he?

He didn't ask Lazarus to intercede for him. Besides, Jesus called Lazarus back from the grave. Are all Catholics trying to call Mary back from the grave when they pray to her?

[hben]

Because some people misinterpret the words that have more than one meaning.

Who is the final judge of that?

[Meriweather]

I kind'a see it as the Church turning it's back on us.

Please understand that I may have "walked-away" from the Cathilic church, but not God.

As near as I can tell, God cares about your relationship with Him, not a church. Jesus simply said to gather with others that love God, and worship together in praise of Him. There was no fine-print saying that the church should be Catholic, Baptist, or other. As far as I'm concerned, 2 people could be standing in the middle of the woods, and if they call up to God, they are in a church.

Yes and no. When it comes to praise and worship of God, very true. However, the purpose of a church community is to better serve others. On my own, I can do very little to help the poor in my community. A group of us can do so much more. I object to leaving the Church to scoundrels. I say we stay, clean it up, and put it back to doing the Lord's work.

[hben]

Did you read Meri's response to this? It was spot on.


Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of they womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

Greeting Mary as the Angel did, and then asking Jesus' mother to pray for us. It's really quite straightforward. It is based, as Meri explained earlier, in our belief in the communion of saints -- that believers whether here on earth or in heaven are not separated but joined in the body of Christ. Thus we can ask not only our friends and family here on earth to pray for us, but for those in heaven, as well. That's what the "Hail Mary" is all about.


So we're even. I don't understand football. *L*

Is there something in the Catholic Bible where Jesus tells you to pray to His mother? Catholics are aware that it is not found anywhere in the Protestant Bible, right?

[Hadassah]

My daddy is alive in Christ, but I stopped talking to him when he departured from this earth and went to heaven to live with Jesus. I no longer ask him for anything. I ask my heavenly Father to meet my needs. Why would anyone pray to anyone but God? It seems like an insult to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to pray to a woman whenever Jesus told us to pray to our Father which art in heaven in His name.



It's only an insult if these people are dead, but they're not. They're alive in heaven, and much closer to God than we are.


Plus, we're not asking them to meet our needs. We're asking them to help us by praying to God with us.

[Dancer]

Who is the final judge of that?Final judge of what? Misinterpretation due to using a language that doesn't express what the original intent was?

God. I would prefer to try to know God better by knowing what was being taught though.

[hben]

I agree with this post, but,

How do you know the truth when you see it?
You can do all the study, prayer, worship you want, and in the end, you will still choose to believe what your own sinful, self-righteous, imperfect heart and mind chooses to believe. IMO.

I certainly don't expect the Pope to be responsible for what and who I choose to believe, but he has to take some responsibilty for those who are following him.

[Dancer]

It's only an insult if these people are dead, but they're not. They're alive in heaven, and much closer to God than we are.


Plus, we're not asking them to meet our needs. We're asking them to help us by praying to God with us. Hadassah, he knows that. We have had this conversation many, many times. The fact that hben chooses to continue to misstate what he has been clearly told repeatedly is wrong is either so that we have the opportunity to show patience in who we belong to or because he desires to demean the Catholic Church.

I leave it to hben to search his own heart to determine which of those two situations meets the truth.

[BillBrown]

My daddy is alive in Christ, but I stopped talking to him when he departured from this earth and went to heaven to live with Jesus. I no longer ask him for anything. I ask my heavenly Father to meet my needs. Why would anyone pray to anyone but God? It seems like an insult to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to pray to a woman whenever Jesus told us to pray to our Father which art in heaven in His name.

I can see the Catholic position about asking Mary to pray for them. I don't see a real scriptural problem with it.

If a person believes that the departed can hear us, that violates no scripture I am aware of.

If a person believes that and further asks a departed to pray for them, it would be the same as me asking you to pray for me.

The Mary veneration that I have questions about are things like stating that Mary was without sin. That she ascended into heaven rather than die. The Bible states that it is appointed to all men, once to die.

The notion that Mary remained a virgin, I also believe is without scriptural foundation.

I respect the Catholic Church more every day, but there are still some things I do not understand.

[hben]

I'm widju

Actually, the Jews of Jesus' day did the very same thing when they assumed that they were automatically considered to be the children of Abraham. Jesus pretty much made it clear that only those who had true faith like Abraham had were truly the children of Abraham. The name or even the bloodline and pedigree might have been important to the Pharisees, but all that didn't impress Jesus. Only true faith in God as Abraham had made anyone a child of Abraham and thus a true child of God.

[hben]

it lines up with the word of god. Many churches do yet many do not. This is why god gave us the gift of discernment.

amen, cid.

[Meriweather]

When I was Catholic, we learned that Mary didn't die, she was ascended into heaven..thus the celebration of Ascension Day every year.

Slight correction here. The Feast of the Ascension (Ascension Thursday--forty days after Easter) commemorates the ascension of Jesus into Heaven. One of the readings for that day is Acts 1:6-12, which describes the Ascension.

It is the Feast of the Assumption that celebrates Mary's happy departure from this life and the assumption of her body into heaven. The Assumption relies heavily on Church tradition, but traditions vary. She is thought to have died anywhere from three to fifteen years after Christ's ascension. Some say she died in Jerusalem, (where her tomb is shown) but other say Ephesus.

[byzantine catholic]

Because I am Baptist. Why are you not Baptist? :hug:I used to be until I grew up from the preaches and fire and brimstone and antichrist stuff!:lol:

[gpd®]

Slight correction here. The Feast of the Ascension (Ascension Thursday--forty days after Easter) commemorates the ascension of Jesus into Heaven. One of the readings for that day is Acts 1:6-12, which describes the Ascension.

It is the Feast of the Assumption that celebrates Mary's happy departure from this life and the assumption of her body into heaven. The Assumption relies heavily on Church tradition, but traditions vary. She is thought to have died anywhere from three to fifteen years after Christ's ascension. Some say she died in Jerusalem, (where her tomb is shown) but other say Ephesus.

Awesome, thanks for the correction. Yes, now I remember the Assumption.

[hben]

Scripture tells us that the Body of Christ is made up of both the living and the dead--that we are all alive in Christ.

But why specifically, do Catholics talk to the dead saints like Peter, Paul and Mary...no pun intended? Once they can't talk back to us, it becomes prayer...rather than conversation, and why pray to those who were nothing more than sinners like me, whenever I can talk directly to the ONE who never sinned? I am sorry, but without a direct command from scripture, I still see such prayers as an insult to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is like ignoring the ONE who died for me and going to someone who is no more or less important than I am to get my prayers answered. I just don't get it, and no one has ever given me an explanation which clarified it for me.

[Hadassah]

I can see the Catholic position about asking Mary to pray for them. I don't see a real scriptural problem with it.

If a person believes that the departed can hear us, that violates no scripture I am aware of.

If a person believes that and further asks a departed to pray for them, it would be the same as me asking you to pray for me.

The Mary veneration that I have questions about are things like stating that Mary was without sin. That she ascended into heaven rather than die. The Bible states that it is appointed to all men, once to die.

The notion that Mary remained a virgin, I also believe is without scriptural foundation.

I respect the Catholic Church more every day, but there are still some things I do not understand.


Here's an article that may help with why the Church believes in Mary's sinlessness.


http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102sbs.asp



I wish I could help more at this time, but I promised my son that once the computer got fixed, I'd take him up to my father's grave. since I'm posting here, my computer is obviouysly fixed, so now it's time to go.

[Hadassah]

But why specifically, do Catholics talk to the dead saints like Peter, Paul and Mary...no pun intended? Once they can't talk back to us, it becomes prayer...rather than conversation, and why pray to those who were nothing more than sinners like me, whenever I can talk directly to the ONE who never sinned? I am sorry, but without a direct command from scripture, I still see such prayers as an insult to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is like ignoring the ONE who died for me and going to someone who is no more or less important than I am to get my prayers answered. I just don't get it, and no one has ever given me an explanation which clarified it for me.


Hey, Peter, Paul and Mary were very blessed by God with their musical talents......... :shifty:











Oops, wrong group. Sorry, my bad. :))

[hben]

In both Acts and Paul's letters we find instances of people praying for each other. Why do you suppose they were all praying for each other if there is only one intercessor between God and man? I ask you this because I need to better understand your thinking on this matter.

As was said earlier, Catholics believe the Body of Christ is made up of both the living and the dead. We are all alive in Christ. Therefore, it makes no difference in asking for prayers from both the living and the dead--it's all one body. The body of Christ prays together, and we pray for each other. Therefore, to me it is a very simple matter.

It's not simple to me at all. I guess we now know the rest of the story...as to why I am not Catholic. They have too many beliefs that I can't find in scripture, and that would scare the socks off me if I was a Catholic...which I'm not and don't ever plan to be.

[byzantine catholic]

If we assume that Mary is Queen, wouldn't Joseph be King and Jesus a Prince?

If we start extrapolating from scripture, rather than taking it at face value, we can get all kinds of interpretations.No because in Jewish times the Mother of the king would be queen.:)Get it.:think:Mary is the mother of Jesus.:shhh:

[Wndrtch]

Yes and no. When it comes to praise and worship of God, very true. However, the purpose of a church community is to better serve others. On my own, I can do very little to help the poor in my community. A group of us can do so much more. I object to leaving the Church to scoundrels. I say we stay, clean it up, and put it back to doing the Lord's work.

God bless you for try'n.

Now if you could just get rid of that Men's only club and allow Priest to marry...

[Hadassah]

It's not simple to me at all. I guess we now know the rest of the story...as to why I am not Catholic. They have too many beliefs that I can't find in scripture, and that would scare the socks off me if I was a Catholic...which I'm not and don't ever plan to be.

You think it should scare the socks off of us? :eh: You forget, most of us here are very knowledgeable about our faith and the foundations about our beliefs. Just because you don't agree with the interpretation of the Scriptures as they have been handed down from the begining doesn't make us wrong.

[hben]

But Jesus does not say He is King. He does say "my Kingdom is not of this world". I cannot find, anywhere (if it exists at all) where Jesus Himself says He is King. Certainly not of this world, of course.

Then how can Mary be called a Queen, when Jesus never called Himself one?

John Chapter 18

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

So for you, it has to come from the red letter words in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John for it to be credible? Because passages such as these work just fine for me.

1Tm:6:15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Rv:17:14: These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rv:19:16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[Meriweather]

But why specifically, do Catholics talk to the dead saints like Peter, Paul and Mary...no pun intended? Once they can't talk back to us, it becomes prayer...rather than conversation, and why pray to those who were nothing more than sinners like me, whenever I can talk directly to the ONE who never sinned? I am sorry, but without a direct command from scripture, I still see such prayers as an insult to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is like ignoring the ONE who died for me and going to someone who is no more or less important than I am to get my prayers answered. I just don't get it, and no one has ever given me an explanation which clarified it for me.

You do understand everyone being alive in the Body of Christ; that the Body of Christ is not filled with people who are dead, but who are living? You agree that those who have died are still members of this Body of Christ?

Next, do you grow outraged when people come to you and ask you to pray for them? Do you shout at them that they should be talking directly to God instead of to you? Do you tell them that by asking you to pray for them/with them, that they have gravely insulted the Father? Or, do you simply pray for them and with them--and feel both glad and honored to be asked to join in. (Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name...)

Why should it insult God to have members of His family, both those living and those who have passed on, praying in unison to Him?

[byzantine catholic]

God bless you for try'n.

Now if you could just get rid of that Men's only club and allow Priest to marry...All Apostles were male and read 1 Tiomothy Chapter 3 on the role of women in the Church.:):think:Paul also said that being celibate is a holy action for missionaries and required all of his to be celibate.:cool:

[hben]

I've attended Catholic Churches and I like Catholicism, but it's very ceremonious. I'm a sort of non-denominational Protestant with strong Modern Day Baptist leanings. You go to a Baptist church on Sunday, worship, pray, sing a few songs and go home. It's simple -- and lots of parking too!

Unless they passed the offering plate, they were not true Baptist...at least the branch that I am affiliated with. :))

Sorry, I couldn't resist that when I didn't see the offering included in the order of service. :shifty: :whistle:

[byzantine catholic]

Unless they passed the offering plate, they were not true Baptist...at least the branch that I am affiliated with. :))

Sorry, I couldn't resist that when I didn't see the offering included in the order of service. :shifty: :whistle:Sorry I am not Baptist anymore because I got tired of that antichrist and fire and brimstone stuff!:lol:

[Meriweather]

God bless you for try'n.

Now if you could just get rid of that Men's only club and allow Priest to marry...

It is far from being a men's only club, as any woman involved in the Church can tell you. We do follow the tradition that leaves the priesthood to the men. I think it was decided that the men should take responsibility for something. ;)

[Dancer]

All Apostles were male and read 1 Tiomothy Chapter 3 on the role of women in the Church.:):think:Paul also said that being celibate is a holy action for missionaries and required all of his to be celibate.:cool:You seriously need to have a chat with your priest. While Latin Rite Catholic priests are required to remain celibate, there are other churches that answer to the Pope who allow their priests to marry.

Do some research.

[hben]

People do pray to St. Paul and St. Timothy for intercessions as well.

Nowhere do Catholics pray to Mary to do ANYTHING on God's behalf. They pray to Mary to SPEAK to God on OUR behalf.

Do you believe God pays more attention to Mary or any other deceased Saint than He does to you or me? If so, I can't find that in my Bible anywhere.

However, I can find passages which tell me to have confidence and boldness to pray and ask myself since I am just as much a child of God as Peter, Paul or Mary.

Mt:7:7-8: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Jn:14:13-14: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Jn:15:7: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jn:15:16: Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Heb:4:16: Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1Jn:3:22: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn:5:14-15: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: and if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

[byzantine catholic]

You seriously need to have a chat with your priest. While Latin Rite Catholic priests are required to remain celibate, there are other churches that answer to the Pope who allow their priests to marry.

Do some research.Yes I know but even Eastern Catholic bishops must be celibate and Anglican Use priests, bishops, and deacons do not have to be celibate but I am in the Latin Rite!:)

[Wndrtch]

It is far from being a men's only club, as any woman involved in the Church can tell you. We do follow the tradition that leaves the priesthood to the men. I think it was decided that the men should take responsibility for something. ;)

Just don't ask them to hit the laundry basket with their dirty cloths or ask for directions, right?

:dance:

[BillBrown]

Do you believe God pays more attention to Mary or any other deceased Saint than He does to you or me? If so, I can't find that in my Bible anywhere.

However, I can find passages which tell me to have confidence and boldness to pray and ask myself since I am just as much a child of God as Peter, Paul or Mary.

Mt:7:7-8: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Jn:14:13-14: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Jn:15:7: If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jn:15:16: Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Heb:4:16: Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1Jn:3:22: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn:5:14-15: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: and if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Do you ever pray for others or ask others to pray for you?

[hben]

You don't think Mary was praying as well? You can't imagine the possibility of Mary and Jesus praying together at this time?

Praying to God with someone is different than praying to someone. When you ask someone to pray for you or with you, do you consider that praying to them?

Again, it seems to me that Protestants may have reached a wrong conclusion about Catholics asking Mary and other saints to join in with our prayers.

But if I was going to ask anyone in heaven to pray for me, I would ask my own mom or dad rather than the mom of Jesus. I think it would be selfish of me to bother them when they have already fought the good fight and finished the race. They are at peace with the Lord and Savior where there are no more tears, sorrow or pain, so I wouldn't think of worrying them with my problems. Jesus pretty much promised that we could pray in His name, so why bother anyone else of lesser importance?

[5thIDSoldier]

People do pray to St. Paul and St. Timothy for intercessions as well.

Nowhere do Catholics pray to Mary to do ANYTHING on God's behalf. They pray to Mary to SPEAK to God on OUR behalf.

Thank you for clarifying your position.

[hben]

When I was Catholic, we learned that Mary didn't die, she was ascended into heaven..thus the celebration of Ascension Day every year.

I had never heard that. Hmmmm... :think:

Of course, the Protestant Bible left that out, so I no reason to believe that to be true, since she was not sinless, and she was not a Savior.

[byzantine catholic]

I had never heard that. Hmmmm... :think:

Of course, the Protestant Bible left that out, so I no reason to believe that to be true, since she was not sinless, and she was not a Savior.If she was not sinless then she could not give birth to the Son of God who was also without sin!:)Nobody said she was the savior!:frown:See most people would get that but not you!:lol:

[birdonawire]

OK I think my feeble mind grasped the concept.

Catholic's ask Mary and the Saints to pray WITH them as I would ask a friend or pastor to pray with me, its not praying TO Mary and the Saints but asking them to help us in prayer?

OK did I get it right???? :dance:

[hben]

It's only an insult if these people are dead, but they're not. They're alive in heaven, and much closer to God than we are.


Plus, we're not asking them to meet our needs. We're asking them to help us by praying to God with us.

So according to the Catholic beliefs, I could ask my mother and daddy to continue praying for me even though they put in plenty of hours worrying and praying for me while they were down here? I am sure that my mother and daddy would be more concerned about me than Mary whom I never met, but I still don't think it is God's will for a Saint living at peace in heaven where there are no worries or pain to have to continue worrying and praying for us sinners down here. It just makes no sense to me at all, and I haven't seen on verse of scripture to support this idea.

[byzantine catholic]

OK I think my feeble mind grasped the concept.

Catholic's ask Mary and the Saints to pray WITH them as I would ask a friend or pastor to pray with me, its not praying TO Mary and the Saints but asking them to help us in prayer?

OK did I get it right???? :dance:We pray for Mary to interceed our prayers to God.:)Pretty close!:dance::hug:

[gpd®]

I had never heard that. Hmmmm... :think:

Of course, the Protestant Bible left that out, so I no reason to believe that to be true, since she was not sinless, and she was not a Savior.

I was already corrected on that. It was called the Assumption. Her earthly body was "assumed" into Heaven according to tradition.

[5thIDSoldier]

I had never heard that. Hmmmm... :think:

Of course, the Protestant Bible left that out, so I no reason to believe that to be true, since she was not sinless, and she was not a Savior.

She was certainly a virgin, but not sinless. No human is sinless. And where in the Bible does it say she ascended into heaven? I've certainly never read that anywhere.....

[CID_0687]

If she was not sinless then she could not give birth to the Son of God who was also without sin!:)Nobody said she was the savior!:frown:See most people would get that but not you!:lol:
But how could she have been sinless if Jesus was the Only person to ever walk this earth without sin?

[hben]

Hadassah, he knows that. We have had this conversation many, many times. The fact that hben chooses to continue to misstate what he has been clearly told repeatedly is wrong is either so that we have the opportunity to show patience in who we belong to or because he desires to demean the Catholic Church.

I leave it to hben to search his own heart to determine which of those two situations meets the truth.

Dancer, I have seldom ever gotten into these Catholic discussions, so if you have answered this before for me, I have never understood it and still don't.

[Meriweather]

But if I was going to ask anyone in heaven to pray for me, I would ask my own mom or dad rather than the mom of Jesus. I think it would be selfish of me to bother them when they have already fought the good fight and finished the race. They are at peace with the Lord and Savior where there are no more tears, sorrow or pain, so I wouldn't think of worrying them with my problems. Jesus pretty much promised that we could pray in His name, so why bother anyone else of lesser importance?

Then isn't it selfish to ask the living to pray for one, too? They have enough problems of their own, don't they? I think of it as all of us being in one family. Family is there for family. Take a look at your grandchildren. Can you imagine telling any of them not to bother you after you are gone, that you have fought the good fight and are finished with the race?

All I am saying is that if one is comfortable praying with the living, and asking the living to join in praying, I see no difference in praying with those who have passed on, and asking them to join in prayer, also. If I only ever prayed one-on-one to God, then I would see your point. As I see it, the family of God prays together, and those who are living and those who are dead make up the family of God.

[hben]

Hadassah, he knows that. We have had this conversation many, many times. The fact that hben chooses to continue to misstate what he has been clearly told repeatedly is wrong is either so that we have the opportunity to show patience in who we belong to or because he desires to demean the Catholic Church.

I leave it to hben to search his own heart to determine which of those two situations meets the truth.

Why would anyone want to have a thread and ask why we are not Catholic and get impatient when we honestly tell you that there are too many questions and not enough answers?

If I ask you why you aren't Baptist, I would expect you to tell me.

[Meriweather]

OK I think my feeble mind grasped the concept.

Catholic's ask Mary and the Saints to pray WITH them as I would ask a friend or pastor to pray with me, its not praying TO Mary and the Saints but asking them to help us in prayer?

OK did I get it right???? :dance:

Yes. That is correct.

[birdonawire]

So according to the Catholic beliefs, I could ask my mother and daddy to continue praying for me even though they put in plenty of hours worrying and praying for me while they were down here? I am sure that my mother and daddy would be more concerned about me than Mary whom I never met, but I still don't think it is God's will for a Saint living at peace in heaven where there are no worries or pain to have to continue worrying and praying for us sinners down here. It just makes no sense to me at all, and I haven't seen on verse of scripture to support this idea.


I don't know about that she was pretty special for God to choose her to carry and give birth to His Son, I like to think she loves all God's children like her own.

JMO ( notice I didn't put the 'h' for humble in there :cool:)

[birdonawire]

Yes. That is correct.


Alright I got one!!! :hug: :dance:

[hben]

I used to be until I grew up from the preaches and fire and brimstone and antichrist stuff!:lol:

I haven't grown up and don't plan to...if that is the reasoning behind my beliefs. :cool: :dance:

[BillBrown]

Then isn't it selfish to ask the living to pray for one, too? They have enough problems of their own, don't they? I think of it as all of us being in one family. Family is there for family. Take a look at your grandchildren. Can you imagine telling any of them not to bother you after you are gone, that you have fought the good fight and are finished with the race?

All I am saying is that if one is comfortable praying with the living, and asking the living to join in praying, I see no difference in praying with those who have passed on, and asking them to join in prayer, also. If I only ever prayed one-on-one to God, then I would see your point. As I see it, the family of God prays together, and those who are living and those who are dead make up the family of God.


The only theological objection I can see in that is for those who believe that the dead are asleep awaiting the resurrection. My church believes that. I'm not sure what I believe.

I think that even in that case, asking the dead to pray for us would not be sinful, it would be useless.

[hben]

Hey, Peter, Paul and Mary were very blessed by God with their musical talents......... :shifty:











Oops, wrong group. Sorry, my bad. :))

I wonder if the original group sang Southern Gospel or Contemporary Christian? :think:

[Wndrtch]

All Apostles were male and read 1 Tiomothy Chapter 3 on the role of women in the Church.:)

Mary of Magdala was an Apostle. She was closest to Christ, she was the first to learn of Christ's "dissapearance", and was the first person Christ spoke to, before he ascended.

She also performed miracles.


Tradition relates, that in Italy Mary Magdalene visited the Emperor Tiberias (14-37 AD) and proclaimed to him about Christ's Resurrection. According to tradition, she took him an egg as a symbol of the Resurrection, a symbol of new life with the words: "Christ is Risen!" Then she told Tiberias that, in his Province of Judea, Jesus the Nazarene, a holy man, a maker of miracles, powerful before God and all mankind, was executed on the instigation of the Jewish High-Priests and the sentence affirmed by the procurator Pontius Pilate. Tiberias responded that no one could rise from the dead, anymore than the egg she held could turn red. Miraculously, the egg immediately began to turn red as testimony to her words. Then, and by her urging, Tiberias had Pilate removed from Jerusalem to Gaul, where he later suffered a horrible sickness and an agonizing death.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/mary_magdalene.htm

:think:Paul also said that being celibate is a holy action for missionaries and required all of his to be celibate.:cool:

But, Catholic doctorine defines "Marriage" as a Holy Sacrament!

:think:

[byzantine catholic]

Mary of Magdala was an Apostle. She was closest to Christ, she was the first to learn of Christ's "dissapearance", and was the first person Christ spoke to, before he ascended.

She also performed miracles.

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http://www.thenazareneway.com/mary_magdalene.htm



But, Catholic doctorine defines "Marriage" as a Holy Sacrament!

:think:She is not one of the 12 apostles of the Church but of course she performed miracles because Christ redeemed her sinful actions and she became a saint!:)Marraige is a holy sacrament for the laity but not the holy orders!:shhh::think:

[CID_0687]

I wonder if the original group sang Southern Gospel or Contemporary Christian? :think:
The original words to "Puff the Magic Dragon"

Our Messiah Jesus
Lived by the sea
Performing miracles in the autumn mist
In a land called Galilee....

:cool:

[byzantine catholic]

I haven't grown up and don't plan to...if that is the reasoning behind my beliefs. :cool: :dance:So you like the antichrist and fire and brimstone stuff!:frown:

[hben]

You think it should scare the socks off of us? :eh: You forget, most of us here are very knowledgeable about our faith and the foundations about our beliefs. Just because you don't agree with the interpretation of the Scriptures as they have been handed down from the begining doesn't make us wrong.

I am only answering the question in the O.P. I am telling everyone why I am not Catholic. I ask the same questions over and over, and some even get tired of trying to answer them as if I understand when I still don't understand. I would like to, but until I do, I am sure I will ask the same questions again. Of course, it doesn't matter if I have no desire to become a Catholic, but I still like to understand other faiths and why they believe what they believe.

[gpd®]

So you like the antichrist and fire and brimstone stuff!:frown:

Yeah baby, bring it on!!!

[byzantine catholic]

Yeah baby, bring it on!!!Until you are the one following and loving the antichrist!:think::shhh::lol:

[BillBrown]

So you like the antichrist and fire and brimstone stuff!:frown:

Do Catholics not believe there will emerge an antichrist?

Do you not believe in a burning hell?

I thought you did.

[byzantine catholic]

Do Catholics not believe there will emerge an antichrist?

Do you not believe in a burning hell?

I thought you did.Yes but not everytime I go to Church!:)It was a joke sheesh!

[hben]

You do understand everyone being alive in the Body of Christ; that the Body of Christ is not filled with people who are dead, but who are living? You agree that those who have died are still members of this Body of Christ?

Next, do you grow outraged when people come to you and ask you to pray for them? Do you shout at them that they should be talking directly to God instead of to you? Do you tell them that by asking you to pray for them/with them, that they have gravely insulted the Father? Or, do you simply pray for them and with them--and feel both glad and honored to be asked to join in. (Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name...)

Why should it insult God to have members of His family, both those living and those who have passed on, praying in unison to Him?

That makes a little more sense, Meri, so thanks for being patient and explaining it. Maybe I should not have said that it is an insult to the Holy Trinity, so let me try again on some of my problem with the idea. I believe my mother and dad are both alive and well in heaven with Jesus based on my understanding of scripture. So with that said, I also believe that heaven is a place of peace where there is no more worrying, suffering or pain of any kind. Now, why would I bother my mother, my dad or the mother of Jesus with my problems down here whenever I can take them directly to my heavenly Father who told me to do that? I don't feel the need to bother any of the Saints who have already fought the good fight, finished the race, suffered the pains and sorrows of this world. I can't imagine bringing my troubles to them in their worry free, sin free habitat. And though I now understand why some in the Catholic Church now believe they can or should, I don't, so I will never be a Catholic for that reason among others.

[hben]

Sorry I am not Baptist anymore because I got tired of that antichrist and fire and brimstone stuff!:lol:

It must have been your former preacher's thing, because I don't preach on that very often at all. I preach the good news of salvation by grace through faith in Christ which overshadows the bad news of the things your former pastor evidently focused on. Maybe someone needs to preach the good news to him. Ya think? ;)

[byzantine catholic]

It must have been your former preacher's thing, because I don't preach on that very often at all. I preach the good news of salvation by grace through faith in Christ which overshadows the bad news of the things your former pastor evidently focused on. Maybe someone needs to preach the good news to him. Ya think? ;)Yep and he said stuff like we should help the Jews for Jesus to convert the Jews too. Do you believe in that!:frown:

[hben]

Yes I know but even Eastern Catholic bishops must be celibate and Anglican Use priests, bishops, and deacons do not have to be celibate but I am in the Latin Rite!:)

I am only celibate whenever my wife gets mad at me. :evil: :frown: :cool:

[byzantine catholic]

Do Catholics not believe there will emerge an antichrist?

Do you not believe in a burning hell?

I thought you did.No rapture though!:)

[CID_0687]

It must have been your former preacher's thing, because I don't preach on that very often at all. I preach the good news of salvation by grace through faith in Christ which overshadows the bad news of the things your former pastor evidently focused on. Maybe someone needs to preach the good news to him. Ya think? ;)
Most Baptist churches I've been to, this is what they preach...The Good News...not saying I've never been to a Fire and Brimstone service...but they are few and far between.

[Meriweather]

That makes a little more sense, Meri, so thanks for being patient and explaining it. Maybe I should not have said that it is an insult to the Holy Trinity, so let me try again on some of my problem with the idea. I believe my mother and dad are both alive and well in heaven with Jesus based on my understanding of scripture. So with that said, I also believe that heaven is a place of peace where there is no more worrying, suffering or pain of any kind. Now, why would I bother my mother, my dad or the mother of Jesus with my problems down here whenever I can take them directly to my heavenly Father who told me to do that? I don't feel the need to bother any of the Saints who have already fought the good fight, finished the race, suffered the pains and sorrows of this world. I can't imagine bringing my troubles to them in their worry free, sin free habitat. And though I now understand why some in the Catholic Church now believe they can or should, I don't, so I will never be a Catholic for that reason among others.

I understand.

However, imagine yourself on vacation, and one of your children suddenly suffered a terrible illness or injury and wanted you close. Imagine that in the end, the child gave orders that you were not to be called or disturbed because you were on your vacation. After all, they did have a doctor present.

[birdonawire]

I am only celibate whenever my wife gets mad at me. :evil: :frown: :cool:

Quite often huh? :lol:

[hben]

Do you ever pray for others or ask others to pray for you?

Yes, but I just don't think it is very respectful to bother those who have already paid their dues down here and made it to their worry free eternal home up there. Maybe it's just my own hang up, but I promise you my mama did more than her share of worrying and praying for her baby boy down here. I can probably coast for several years on the hours of prayer that she spent on me, before reaching her re****l, peaceful home. I wouldn't dare bother her or daddy. They deserve much better than that. :hug:

[byzantine catholic]

Yes, but I just don't think it is very respectful to bother those who have already paid their dues down here and made it to their worry free eternal home up there. Maybe it's just my own hang up, but I promise you my mama did more than her share of worrying and praying for her baby boy down here. I can probably coast for several years on the hours of prayer that she spent on me, before reaching her re****l, peaceful home. I wouldn't dare bother her or daddy. They deserve much better than that. :hug:Hey ben man no offense but the Catholic Church has 1.2 billion followers and is the oldest church!:)

[hben]

If she was not sinless then she could not give birth to the Son of God who was also without sin!:)Nobody said she was the savior!:frown:See most people would get that but not you!:lol:

She didn't commit the act of marriage in order conceive Jesus, but the Bible never says that she never sinned the rest of her life. If she was sinless, then they could have nailed her to a cross as well, but they didn't.

[hben]

But how could she have been sinless if Jesus was the Only person to ever walk this earth without sin?

Now that is a very good question, CID. :think:

[CID_0687]

Hey ben man no offense but the Catholic Church has 1.2 billion followers and is the oldest church!:)
The Pentecostal church is one of the newest and is expected to surpass the Catholic church in number of member with the next 30 years...we're somewhere about 600 million right now...just sayin' ;)

[byzantine catholic]

She didn't commit the act of marriage in order conceive Jesus, but the Bible never says that she never sinned the rest of her life. If she was sinless, then they could have nailed her to a cross as well, but they didn't.The angel Gabriel said that Mary was "full of grace" and the Early Church Fathers like Ambrose and Iraneus said that she was without sin. "Thou art fair my love since there is no spot in thee" Luke 1:28.:)Another reason why I am Catholic is because I love Latin!:shhh::cool:Are you gonna answer my question on the jews for Jesus thing?!

[hben]

Then isn't it selfish to ask the living to pray for one, too? They have enough problems of their own, don't they? I think of it as all of us being in one family. Family is there for family. Take a look at your grandchildren. Can you imagine telling any of them not to bother you after you are gone, that you have fought the good fight and are finished with the race?

I have been very diligent in teaching my children to trust the Lord for their needs, because He is able to take care of way more than I can. So when I am gone, they all know not to bother me, because I will have left them in much greater hands than mine. My part will have been done, and I plan on going to my heavenly home where there is no more sorrow or pain. Believe me, if my kids could bother me in heaven, then heaven would not be a place where there are no more tears, etc. Why do you think I am looking forward to it so much? :lol:

All I am saying is that if one is comfortable praying with the living, and asking the living to join in praying, I see no difference in praying with those who have passed on, and asking them to join in prayer, also. If I only ever prayed one-on-one to God, then I would see your point. As I see it, the family of God prays together, and those who are living and those who are dead make up the family of God.

Very well, that is a good reason for you to remain Catholic and me to remain Baptist. No worries, Meri...I still love you even when we disagree. :hug:

[Meriweather]

And I love you, hben!

[hben]

I don't know about that she was pretty special for God to choose her to carry and give birth to His Son, I like to think she loves all God's children like her own.

Are you sayin' my mama doesn't, Birdie? :eh:

JMO ( notice I didn't put the 'h' for humble in there :cool:)[/quote]

I have an opinion to, ya know. And I think my mama is as good as any mama. Seriously, I believe Mary was chosen for a purpose and she fulfilled that purpose, but now I don't believe she is any more special than my mama, your mama, you or me. JMO...humble or not. ;)

[hben]

The original words to "Puff the Magic Dragon"

Our Messiah Jesus
Lived by the sea
Performing miracles in the autumn mist
In a land called Galilee....

:cool:

I like it. I think it will be a hit. :dance:

[hben]

So you like the antichrist and fire and brimstone stuff!:frown:

I don't like them, but I can't leave out part of God's Word just because I don't like it. I already said that I don't focus on such messages. I much prefer to focus on our Lord and Savior and how wonderful He is.

[gpd®]

Until you are the one following and loving the antichrist!:think::shhh::lol:


Not this fire-breathing Pentecostal!!!

[hben]

Yep and he said stuff like we should help the Jews for Jesus to convert the Jews too. Do you believe in that!:frown:

I would like to see the whole world come to believe in Jesus, but I don't separate certain groups as needing Him anymore than others. We ALL need Jesus...period.

[byzantine catholic]

I don't like them, but I can't leave out part of God's Word just because I don't like it. I already said that I don't focus on such messages. I much prefer to focus on our Lord and Savior and how wonderful He is.Well what about the Jews? Will they be saved?

[hben]

Most Baptist churches I've been to, this is what they preach...The Good News...not saying I've never been to a Fire and Brimstone service...but they are few and far between.

Of course, every now and then, people might need to know what it is that they are being saved FROM, and that's when I got'ta give the bad news which leads right back to the good news. :lol:

[Hadassah]

She was certainly a virgin, but not sinless. No human is sinless. And where in the Bible does it say she ascended into heaven? I've certainly never read that anywhere.....

She didn't ascend into heaven. She was assumed, or taken up into heaven.

[CID_0687]

And??
And....those verses say that Jesus is King

[gpd®]

Hey ben man no offense but the Catholic Church has 1.2 billion followers and is the oldest church!:)

There are some Baptists who will say their church started with John the Baptist, long before Constantine.

[CID_0687]

Of course, every now and then, people might need to know what it is that they are being saved FROM, and that's when I got'ta give the bad news which leads right back to the good news. :lol:
Well sure...it's good to light the proverbial spark under the proverbial bottom every now and then. ;)

[hben]

I understand.

However, imagine yourself on vacation, and one of your children suddenly suffered a terrible illness or injury and wanted you close. Imagine that in the end, the child gave orders that you were not to be called or disturbed because you were on your vacation. After all, they did have a doctor present.

They know that there is much more comfort in the Lord than in me. It was even that way while I was physically with them anyway. But I understand what you mean. I guess I am just trusting in the Lord now and later, too, because I know that He is so much better at handling such things than I am.

[BillBrown]

Most Baptist churches I've been to, this is what they preach...The Good News...not saying I've never been to a Fire and Brimstone service...but they are few and far between.

Baptist churches have changed a lot in my lifetime.
I grew up a Baptist and hell was taught every Sunday.

Many large Baptist churches, where I live, have taken the "Baptist" off of their name. I understand this is part of the influence of Rick Warren.

[CID_0687]

Yes? And what's the point of them being posted?
Do you believe that Jesus is King?

[Hadassah]

But how could she have been sinless if Jesus was the Only person to ever walk this earth without sin?

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea3.asp

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102sbs.asp

[gpd®]

Baptist churches have changed a lot in my lifetime.
I grew up a Baptist and hell was taught every Sunday.

Many large Baptist churches, where I live, have taken the "Baptist" off of their name. I understand this is part of the influence of Rick Warren.

That is happening here in the Los Angeles area too.

[hben]

Quite often huh? :lol:

No...Birdie, you are getting me mixed up with Koushi. I am the other one who likes to argue. :lol: :cool:

[CID_0687]

Baptist churches have changed a lot in my lifetime.
I grew up a Baptist and hell was taught every Sunday.

Many large Baptist churches, where I live, have taken the "Baptist" off of their name. I understand this is part of the influence of Rick Warren.
I grew up Episcopalian...but I went to a Baptist church with my grandparents quite often as a kid too...you wanna talk about being confused...I thought that fire and brimstone was what was used to get the incense burning. :doh:

[Dancer]

Then if that be the case, then dwelling among tombs would be looked upon as worship, in a way, wouldn't it?Tombs carry bodies without souls. It is the soul that is with the Lord that is spoken to, not a soulless corpse.

[Hadassah]

There are some Baptists who will say their church started with John the Baptist, long before Constantine.

Two problems with that:

#1 John the Baptist was dead before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

#2 Constantine did not start the Catholic Church.

[hben]

Hey ben man no offense but the Catholic Church has 1.2 billion followers and is the oldest church!:)

Great...and no offense to you, but just because Obama got more votes than anyone else doesn't mean I think he is right on the issues either. Seriously, I learned years ago not to be concerned with the nichols, noses and numbers. I preach the word, love the people, and leave the rest up to the Lord. ;)

[byzantine catholic]

Two problems with that:

#1 John the Baptist was dead before the crucifixion and resurection of Jesus.

#2 Constantine did not start the Catholic Church.John the Baptist was of the Jewish faith anyway and died before Christianity was started and the Catholic faith as started by St Peter and not Constantine though Constantine made Christianity legal for political reasons and not really out of faith.:)

[hben]

The angel Gabriel said that Mary was "full of grace" and the Early Church Fathers like Ambrose and Iraneus said that she was without sin. "Thou art fair my love since there is no spot in thee" Luke 1:28.:)Another reason why I am Catholic is because I love Latin!:shhh::cool:Are you gonna answer my question on the jews for Jesus thing?!

I did. Can't you find it rather than me having to answer it again?

[byzantine catholic]

I did. Can't you find it rather than me having to answer it again?Will the Jews be saved was my question?:)

[hben]

And I love you, hben!

:hug: Ok, enough of that. This is getting too mushy. :cool:

[hben]

And??

And...JESUS IS THE KING OF ALL KINGS...including Elvis.

[hben]

Well what about the Jews? Will they be saved?

There should be like 144,000 Billy Graham sort of Jews running around someday from my understanding.

[CID_0687]

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea3.asp

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102sbs.asp
OK...I don't get it, but ok...it's just a hard concept for me to grasp...as I'm sure the concept of the 9 Spiritual Gifts is for those who aren't Pentecostal.

[hben]

She didn't ascend into heaven. She was assumed, or taken up into heaven.

I assume too much at times and get myself into trouble. :doh:

[byzantine catholic]

There should be like 144,000 Billy Graham sort of Jews running around someday from my understanding.Well since they are the chosen people I think all of them will be saved!:hug:Beautiful kids by the way!

[hben]

There are some Baptists who will say their church started with John the Baptist, long before Constantine.

I don't have a problem believing that, but I don't like to brag. :cool:

[byzantine catholic]

I don't have a problem believing that, but I don't like to brag. :cool:John the Baptist was Jewish!:lol:

[hben]

Well sure...it's good to light the proverbial spark under the proverbial bottom every now and then. ;)

I think Baptists and Pentecostals alike can agree that the preacher's job is to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable every now and again. :dance:

[hben]

Baptist churches have changed a lot in my lifetime.
I grew up a Baptist and hell was taught every Sunday.

Many large Baptist churches, where I live, have taken the "Baptist" off of their name. I understand this is part of the influence of Rick Warren.

Rick is having them change their signs now, huh? Hmmmm...:think:

[hben]

Do you believe that Jesus is King?

Not JUST king, but KING OF ALL KINGS.

[CID_0687]

Where have I ever said I didn't?

The thing I'd like for someone to find (which I cannot) is where Jesus calls Himself King. That is what I cannot find in the Scripture. Yes He says, as has been posted, that His Kingdom "is not of this world". My point was, that if Jesus never declared Himself King publicly, then how can a lowly mortal crown a Queen?

I believe there is a reason why Jesus did not announce He was King outright. He had to be crowned in thorns first, leave this material world and then become King. His Kingdom is in Heaven--not on Earth--it is "not of this world". If He were King of this World, He'd never have been crucified--He'd have it all (as He was tempted in the desert and resisted temptation).
I was just asking...

But as I posted earlier in this thread...you are right...to the best of my knowledge Jesus himself never declared himself to be king....and the only reference I can think of where He claims his deity is when He says, "I and the Father are one."

[Wndrtch]

She is not one of the 12 apostles of the Church but of course she performed miracles because Christ redeemed her sinful actions and she became a saint!:)

Christ redeemed many people, who could not perform miracles afterwards. Why was she different? Maybe to Him, she WAS an Apostle. Afterall, she was the only one to not reject Him in His hour of need. She also spent her remaining days traveling and preaching the Gospel like an Apostle.

Marraige is a holy sacrament for the laity but not the holy orders!:shhh::think:

Catholic doctorin says that Marriage is a holy Sacrament, so the church is denying Sacraments to it's teachers. Plus, the Apostles were married.

[CID_0687]

I think Baptists and Pentecostals alike can agree that the preacher's job is to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable every now and again. :dance:
:)) I believer you're right on the money with that one.

[hben]

I grew up Episcopalian...but I went to a Baptist church with my grandparents quite often as a kid too...you wanna talk about being confused...I thought that fire and brimstone was what was used to get the incense burning. :doh:

Incense in a Baptist church? :doh: Was it during the sixties? And did it have a hippie for a pastor? :eh:

[melinda]

Why? Just wanderin'?:hug:

b/c Martin Luther didn't break away for nothing.... :)

[hben]

Will the Jews be saved was my question?:)

All of them everywhere? No. At least 144,000 will according to my understanding, and they will be like 144,000 Billy Grahams running all over the world. It should be an exciting time.

[birdonawire]

Are you sayin' my mama doesn't, Birdie? :eh:

JMO ( notice I didn't put the 'h' for humble in there :cool:)

I have an opinion to, ya know. And I think my mama is as good as any mama. Seriously, I believe Mary was chosen for a purpose and she fulfilled that purpose, but now I don't believe she is any more special than my mama, your mama, you or me. JMO...humble or not. ;)[/QUOTE]

No I never said that.

I just believe Mary is very special if she was good enough to give birth to God's Son she has to be special.

I think she is more special than our Mom's no disrespect for our Mom's but they were not chosen she was.

[hben]

Well since they are the chosen people I think all of them will be saved!:hug:Beautiful kids by the way!

I hope and pray that they are, but I also hope and pray that all gentiles will be saved since Jesus died for every sinner in the world.

[CID_0687]

Incense in a Baptist church? :doh: Was it during the sixties? And did it have a Hippie for a pastor? :eh:
No, no...the fire and brimstone was in the Baptist church...the incense was in the Episcopal church...sorry should have clarified.

[hben]

John the Baptist was Jewish!:lol:

So was Jesus. :lol:

[gpd®]

I was just asking...

But as I posted earlier in this thread...you are right...to the best of my knowledge Jesus himself never declared himself to be king....and the only reference I can think of where He claims his deity is when He says, "I and the Father are one."

Remember, John declared Him King and John was His best friend. Think Jesus may have whispered a litttle somthin' somethin' into his buddy's ear?;)

[byzantine catholic]

All of them everywhere? No. At least 144,000 will according to my understanding, and they will be like 144,000 Billy Grahams running all over the world. It should be an exciting time.Very antisemetic!:frown:

[byzantine catholic]

So was Jesus. :lol:So why will all Jewish people not be saved?:rolleyes:

[hben]

Great post. :rolleyes: Show where Jesus says that Himself then--in His own words (you can use yellow if you don't like red).

That is why I asked you if it had to be in red letters meaning in the words of Jesus, the son of man. He didn't say it specifically, but He inspired other men to write it down in scripture, so He didn't have to say it.

[CID_0687]

Very antisemetic!:frown:
How is that antisemitic??? Will all the gentiles be saved?? NO...:rolleyes:

Neither will all the Jews...If one does not profess a faith in Christ then they will not have the salvation of Christ.

[Hadassah]

OK...I don't get it, but ok...it's just a hard concept for me to grasp...as I'm sure the concept of the 9 Spiritual Gifts is for those who aren't Pentecostal.

I get the concept of the 9 Spiritual Gifts, no problem. :mrgreen:

[CID_0687]

Remember, John declared Him King and John was His best friend. Think Jesus may have whispered a litttle somthin' somethin' into his buddy's ear?;)
:)) It is possible...I guess we'll find out when we get there.

[byzantine catholic]

How is that antisemitic??? Will all the gentiles be saved?? NO...:rolleyes:

Neither will all the Jews...If one does not profess a faith in Christ then they will not have the salvation of Christ.What happened to God never abandoning his "chosen people". Stuff like you guys said started the Holocaust!:frown:

[Hadassah]

Very antisemetic!:frown:

No, it's not. I'm sure that our resident Jews will tell you that there are those that are bad Jews and therefore, won't attain heaven.

[byzantine catholic]

No, it's not. I'm sure that our resident Jews will tell you that there are those that are bad Jews and therefore, won't attain heaven. Harmonius does not think that way?!:)

[CID_0687]

I get the concept of the 9 Spiritual Gifts, no problem. :mrgreen:
:doh: Oh well.

[hben]

No I never said that.

I just believe Mary is very special if she was good enough to give birth to God's Son she has to be special.

I think she is more special than our Mom's no disrespect for our Mom's but they were not chosen she was.

Birdie, what do you think Jesus meant in this passage in Matthew?

Mt:12:48-49: But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

I believe this shows that Jesus intended for us to love His earthly mother no more or less than anyone else. Afterall, He did tell us to love one another, so that pretty much says that we should love everyone the same in my humble opinion. :)

[CID_0687]

What happened to God never abandoning his "chosen people". Stuff like you guys said started the Holocaust!:frown:
Oh puhleeze!! :rolleyes:

There are bad people everywhere, from every race, color, religion, and creed...Just because someone is Jewish that doesn't make them a Godly person...just like some who profess Christianity are not good people...do you think Jim Jones and David Koresh are in heaven now?

I mean really, what are you like 12?

[byzantine catholic]

Oh puhleeze!! :rolleyes:

There are bad people everywhere, from every race, color, religion, and creed...Just because someone is Jewish that doesn't make them a Godly person...just like some who profess Christianity are not good people...do you think Jim Jones and David Koresh are in heaven now?

I mean really, what are you like 12?I am saying that all the Jews went through they deserve to be the chosen people!:):hug::shhh: