23 Minutes in Hell........................

[WALKINGHADLEY]

Whatever happened to the fear of God in America? Remember stories about Hell and eternal damnation? Has God softened over time? Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenants? Almost all of us live in denial. Today even Christians tend to shy away from the subject. Did you know that Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven? Hell is real place. Once we face Gods judgement there will be no appeal, no amnesty and no hope. For those who rejected Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation hell awaits.

Bill Wiese was not raised on fire and brimstone. No he is a quiet reserved man most unlikely to be chosen by God for such a grim mission. In 1998 God showed Bill Weise a vision and took him to hell in all of its darkness and despair. God gave Bill Weise the task of warning us that hell is real and worse than we can imagine. Jesus Christ paid the price for mans salvation but most men reject him and live selfish self centered lives. God wants to remind us that we need his forgiveness and mercy now. When we die it will be too late.

Bill Weise was led to write a book about his experiences. Its called "23 minutes in Hell". This book should be a wake up call for the modern church. We are supposed to be the light of the world. Christians need to come out of the closet and stand up and be counted. While we are alive lets spread the good news of the gospel of Christ and save men from an eternity of torment. The Lord Jesus Christ paid a steep price with his precious blood for our salvation. Bill Weise is doing his part. How can we do any less?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Watcha sellin?

[biggles53]

Watcha sellin?

:D

I wanna know more about those "tenants" that must be living in the bible.....??

[CMike11]

I think the fire and brimestone sermons basically made good theatre.

[Semi-Sweet]

Preach a literal fire and brimstone hell? Nah, think I'll pass.

[Hadassah]

:D

I wanna know more about those "tenants" that must be living in the bible.....??

:))

brat. :razz:

[Mikko]

Whatever happened to the fear of God in America? Remember stories about Hell and eternal damnation? Has God softened over time? Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenants? Almost all of us live in denial. Today even Christians tend to shy away from the subject. Did you know that Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven? Hell is real place. Once we face Gods judgement there will be no appeal, no amnesty and no hope. For those who rejected Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation hell awaits.

Bill Wiese was not raised on fire and brimstone. No he is a quiet reserved man most unlikely to be chosen by God for such a grim mission. In 1998 God showed Bill Weise a vision and took him to hell in all of its darkness and despair. God gave Bill Weise the task of warning us that hell is real and worse than we can imagine. Jesus Christ paid the price for mans salvation but most men reject him and live selfish self centered lives. God wants to remind us that we need his forgiveness and mercy now. When we die it will be too late.

Bill Weise was led to write a book about his experiences. Its called "23 minutes in Hell". This book should be a wake up call for the modern church. We are supposed to be the light of the world. Christians need to come out of the closet and stand up and be counted. While we are alive lets spread the good news of the gospel of Christ and save men from an eternity of torment. The Lord Jesus Christ paid a steep price with his precious blood for our salvation. Bill Weise is doing his part. How can we do any less?
Near Death Experiences of a heavenly nature are much more common than those like Mr. Weise's. The Good News that Jesus himself spread had nothing to do with being saved from an eternity of torment.:)

[nofear2]

I understand Semi. I think people in this age get sick of getting these speeches about how their hellbound.
Why don't these people focus on how good their faith is rather then how negative everything else is?

[Mikko]

I think the fire and brimestone sermons basically made good theatre.
And controlled a lot of people through fear.:)

[Hadassah]

Whatever happened to the fear of God in America? Remember stories about Hell and eternal damnation? Has God softened over time? Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenants? Almost all of us live in denial. Today even Christians tend to shy away from the subject. Did you know that Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven? Hell is real place. Once we face Gods judgement there will be no appeal, no amnesty and no hope. For those who rejected Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation hell awaits.

Bill Wiese was not raised on fire and brimstone. No he is a quiet reserved man most unlikely to be chosen by God for such a grim mission. In 1998 God showed Bill Weise a vision and took him to hell in all of its darkness and despair. God gave Bill Weise the task of warning us that hell is real and worse than we can imagine. Jesus Christ paid the price for mans salvation but most men reject him and live selfish self centered lives. God wants to remind us that we need his forgiveness and mercy now. When we die it will be too late.

Bill Weise was led to write a book about his experiences. Its called "23 minutes in Hell". This book should be a wake up call for the modern church. We are supposed to be the light of the world. Christians need to come out of the closet and stand up and be counted. While we are alive lets spread the good news of the gospel of Christ and save men from an eternity of torment. The Lord Jesus Christ paid a steep price with his precious blood for our salvation. Bill Weise is doing his part. How can we do any less?


We do need to talk about the reality of hell, but must not let that be our only focus.

[orbitaldecay]

The message and Gospel of Jesus Christ is of hope, love, and eternal peace; it's not really Eternal Damnation.

I think some focus their teachings about Hell to scare people to live righteously, but fear should not be the motivator - faith and hope should be.

All, in my humble opinion, of course.

[Lie Sniper]

Whatever happened to the fear of God in America? Remember stories about Hell and eternal damnation? Has God softened over time? Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenants? Almost all of us live in denial. Today even Christians tend to shy away from the subject. Did you know that Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven? Hell is real place. Once we face Gods judgement there will be no appeal, no amnesty and no hope. For those who rejected Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation hell awaits.

Bill Wiese was not raised on fire and brimstone. No he is a quiet reserved man most unlikely to be chosen by God for such a grim mission. In 1998 God showed Bill Weise a vision and took him to hell in all of its darkness and despair. God gave Bill Weise the task of warning us that hell is real and worse than we can imagine. Jesus Christ paid the price for mans salvation but most men reject him and live selfish self centered lives. God wants to remind us that we need his forgiveness and mercy now. When we die it will be too late.

Bill Weise was led to write a book about his experiences. Its called "23 minutes in Hell". This book should be a wake up call for the modern church. We are supposed to be the light of the world. Christians need to come out of the closet and stand up and be counted. While we are alive lets spread the good news of the gospel of Christ and save men from an eternity of torment. The Lord Jesus Christ paid a steep price with his precious blood for our salvation. Bill Weise is doing his part. How can we do any less?

If this is your style of preaching, go right ahead. Some will respond, some will just ignore you. Condemning people with the law and then rescuing with the promise can be effective, but you may soon find it is not the only way to spread the Gospel. You may find it is somewhat remedial to some congregations. Lacking the proper depth, your listeners may begin to fade and your style will lose its shock value.

Good Luck!

I do enjoy the good, old fashion, fire and brimstone every once and awhile, it can sure wake you up in the morning!:eek:

[Koushi Shinigami]

some will just ignore you.



*waves*

[Koushi Shinigami]

:D

I wanna know more about those "tenants" that must be living in the bible.....??

:think: :)).

Must be pretty small rooms.

[Marleysdaddy]

Watcha sellin?

Fire Insurance? :razz:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Fire Insurance? :razz:


Hai five!!



Maybe red, asbestos jumpsuits. :shrug:

[Lie Sniper]

Fire Insurance? :razz:

:))

[Marleysdaddy]

Hai five!!

Danke...



I'm actually surprised you didn't think of it first ;)

[Koushi Shinigami]

Danke...



I'm actually surprised you didn't think of it first ;)

Must be slipping. :D

[Thor]

For those who rejected Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation hell awaits.


So all non-Christians go to hell?

This would include Gandhi, Carl Sagan, the Dalai Lama and Albert Einstein.

[Thank you Troops]

That was a great book. The strongest man on earth is no match for the demons in Hell. I am so glad I was scared to salvation. Now I have assurance of the blessed hope from Jesus.

[Mikko]

So all non-Christians go to hell?

This would include Gandhi, Carl Sagan, the Dalai Lama and Albert Einstein.
According to fundagelical Christianity, yes indeed.:)

[Mikko]

That was a great book. The strongest man on earth is no match for the demons in Hell. I am so glad I was scared to salvation. Now I have assurance of the blessed hope from Jesus.
I was loved into salvaton myself, and Jesus was one of the teachers who pointed out that love. :)

[Thank you Troops]

According to fundagelical Christianity, yes indeed.:)


You are correct, that is the belief. Because Jesus is the savior and judge of all mankind according to the Bible.

[Thank you Troops]

I was loved into salvaton myself, and Jesus was one of the teachers who pointed out that love. :)

Blessings on you.

[Thor]

You are correct, that is the belief. Because Jesus is the savior and judge of all mankind according to the Bible.

So you believe Mahatma Gandhi, Carl Sagan, Einstein and past Dalai Lamas are all burning in hell for eternity?

[Thor]

According to fundagelical Christianity, yes indeed.:)

Don't other religions teach that you go to hell unless you believe what they believe?

How do you know who is right? How do you know if ANY of them are right?

[Thank you Troops]

So you believe Mahatma Gandhi, Carl Sagan, Einstein and past Dalai Lamas are all burning in hell for eternity?


I don't know but do you believe that they did not sin?

[Thank you Troops]

How do you know who is right? How do you know if ANY of them are right?

Because of the assurance you get through Jesus.

[Abe]

:think: :)).

Must be pretty small rooms.Small...but warm...:evil: :twisted:

[Abe]

So all non-Christians go to hell?

This would include Gandhi, Carl Sagan, the Dalai Lama and Albert Einstein.And (gulp) Abe. :((:((

[Mikko]

Don't other religions teach that you go to hell unless you believe what they believe?

How do you know who is right? How do you know if ANY of them are right?
That is the Big Kahuna of all questions.:)
Personally, I think the "we are right and everybody else is wrong" is a vestige of our tribal origins. To me, that is one of the teachings of all religions that is universally wrong.:)

[Mikko]

You are correct, that is the belief. Because Jesus is the savior and judge of all mankind according to the Bible.
Well, not the whole Bible. Just the 29 books the Christians tacked onto the end.:)

[Marleysdaddy]

Don't other religions teach that you go to hell unless you believe what they believe?

Some do, some don't...perhaps Abe will weigh in on this and help me, but I don't recall Judaism as being exclusive.

[Thor]

I don't know but do you believe that they did not sin?

Not the point. Everyone does things they shouldn't. I'm trying to find out if you believe people are doomed to "hell" for the simple "transgression" of not being Christian.

[Mikko]

Not the point. Everyone does things they shouldn't. I'm trying to find out if you believe people are doomed to "hell" for the simple "transgression" of not being Christian.
He has already answered that question in the affirmative.:)

[Thank you Troops]

Not the point. Everyone does things they shouldn't. I'm trying to find out if you believe people are doomed to "hell" for the simple "transgression" of not being Christian.


No, people go to hell for their sins. If someone has never sinned they would not go to hell.

[JStasc08]

Not the point. Everyone does things they shouldn't. I'm trying to find out if you believe people are doomed to "hell" for the simple "transgression" of not being Christian.

It's pretty simple actually. God loves all his children but feels a majority of them need to suffer for eternity in Hell.

[Thor]

Some do, some don't.

Imagine you have never been exposed to religion until you become an adult. Then you discover a number of religions that tell you if you follow them you will go to heaven! But if you don't follow them you end up in hell! How do you know which of them is true? If you follow the wrong religion you end up in hell! Not for anything you've done, mind you. Just for the simple reason that you didn't believe the "right" things.

Seems a rather harsh penalty for not making the "right guess" if you ask me.

[orbitaldecay]

I'm curious where everyone thinks the Roman Soldiers who were apart of the crucifixion are going.

[Marleysdaddy]

Imagine you have never been exposed to religion until you become an adult. Then you discover a number of religions that tell you if you follow them you will go to heaven! But if you don't follow them you end up in hell! How do you know which of them is true? If you follow the wrong religion you end up in hell! Not for anything you've done, mind you. Just for the simple reason that you didn't believe the "right" things.

Seems rather a rather harsh penalty for not making the "right guess" if you ask me.

That's why many reasonable people see the request for a guess for what it is...the fallacy of false choice ;)

[Mikko]

No, people go to hell for their sins. If someone has never sinned they would not go to hell.
That is not the New Testament (taken literally) teaching.:)

[Thor]

No, people go to hell for their sins. If someone has never sinned they would not go to hell.

Like I said, EVERYONE "sins" (except for very young children). So this standard is unrealistic.

Let me ask you this:

Mahatma Gandhi.

An outlaw biker who commits crimes his entire life. Before the biker dies he accepts Jesus as his savior and confesses his sins, receiving absolution from a priest.

Who do you think goes to heaven? Gandhi only? The biker only? Both of them? Neither?

[Thor]

That's why many reasonable people see the request for a guess for what it is...the fallacy of false choice ;)

Yours truly included. :)

[Thor]

It's pretty simple actually. God loves all his children but feels a majority of them need to suffer for eternity in Hell.

Reminds me of when I was a kid and my parents would say, "This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you."

Yeah, right!

[Koushi Shinigami]

That was a great book. The strongest man on earth is no match for the demons in Hell. I am so glad I was scared to salvation. Now I have assurance of the blessed hope from Jesus.

You prefer the stick over the carrot?

[Thank you Troops]

You prefer the stick over the carrot?


I prefer the truth.

[Thank you Troops]

Like I said, EVERYONE "sins" (except for very young children). So this standard is unrealistic.

Let me ask you this:

Mahatma Gandhi.

An outlaw biker who commits crimes his entire life. Before the biker dies he accepts Jesus as his savior and confesses his sins, receiving absolution from a priest.

Who do you think goes to heaven? Gandhi only? The biker only? Both of them? Neither?


Whoever accepts Jesus as savior goes to heaven, whether its Mahatma Gandhi, a biker, you, me, whoever. Whoever does not accept Jesus does not go to Heaven according to the Word.

What would Mahatma Gandhi offer a person on their death bed? Live a good life? Jesus is the only savior that I know that can offer anyone eternal life in Heaven, anyone no matter how "good" or "bad" when compared to each other.

[orbitaldecay]

Like I said, EVERYONE "sins" (except for very young children). So this standard is unrealistic.

Let me ask you this:

Mahatma Gandhi.

An outlaw biker who commits crimes his entire life. Before the biker dies he accepts Jesus as his savior and confesses his sins, receiving absolution from a priest.

Who do you think goes to heaven? Gandhi only? The biker only? Both of them? Neither?

I don't know. Ghandi, sure lived the many principles of Christ, and promoted Christ-like teachings. The outlaw biker confessed of his sins and accepted Jesus. I personally believe in an intermediate place where those didn't have the chance to accept Christ will be given the opportunity. But I don't think it is likely that either will be burning in Hell for Eternity. I find it hard to believe that a loving Heavenly Father, is going to eternally punish someone with infinite suffering because they made one wrong choice, despite making thousands of other right choices.

[orbitaldecay]

I'm curious where everyone thinks the Roman Soldiers who were apart of the crucifixion are going.

bump

[nofear2]

And (gulp) Abe. :((:((
I'm driving the bus :))

[Marleysdaddy]

Whoever accepts Jesus as savior goes to heaven, whether its Mahatma Gandhi, a biker, you, me, whoever. Whoever does not accept Jesus does not go to Heaven according to the Word.


Don't you mean according to your interpretation of the Word?

[Thor]

He has already answered that question in the affirmative.:)

He seems to indicate that, but he hasn't come out and clearly stated it.

[Thor]

Whoever accepts Jesus as savior goes to heaven, whether its Mahatma Gandhi, a biker, you, me, whoever. Whoever does not accept Jesus does not go to Heaven according to the Word.

So, according to your beliefs, the outlaw biker goes to heaven while Mahatma Gandhi, a person who preached non-violence and had a positive influence on people all over the world, gets to spend eternity in the fire pits next to Hitler and Stalin.

This makes sense to you?

What would Mahatma Gandhi offer a person on their death bed? Live a good life? Jesus is the only savior that I know that can offer anyone eternal life in Heaven, anyone no matter how "good" or "bad" when compared to each other.


You do not know for a fact that Jesus can offer eternal life in heaven. You also do not know for a fact that "heaven " actually exists. These are nothing but personal beliefs.

[Thor]

I don't know. Ghandi, sure lived the many principles of Christ, and promoted Christ-like teachings. The outlaw biker confessed of his sins and accepted Jesus. I personally believe in an intermediate place where those didn't have the chance to accept Christ will be given the opportunity. But I don't think it is likely that either will be burning in Hell for Eternity. I find it hard to believe that a loving Heavenly Father, is going to eternally punish someone with infinite suffering because they made one wrong choice, despite making thousands of other right choices.

An exceptionally thoughtful post.

Thank you!

[Alaric]

I'm curious where everyone thinks the Roman Soldiers who were apart of the crucifixion are going.

crickets...

shame on you daring to breach the topic of theodicy where thoughtful apologists shudder to tread but fundie zealots rush in. ;)

[RayMan]

crickets...

shame on you daring to breach the topic of theodicy where thoughtful apologists shudder to tread but fundie zealots rush in. ;)

So in other words you think they will spend eternity in Disneyland with Reeder?

[noelle12]

So in other words you think they will spend eternity in Disneyland with Reeder?

:))

[Expo Man]

Jesus said " I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Jesus also said "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus is Love. He shed his precious, sinless blood for you. He loves you and wants you to accept His payment for your sins.
However, Jesus also makes it very clear that if you do not accept Him as your personal savior you will be sent to the place prepared for Satan and his demons. WHY?
Because your sin must be atoned for. If you do not accept the Perfect Blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ then you are relying on your own sinful blood to atone for your sins, which is impossible.

I believe fear is a great motivator and Jesus Christ taught us to fear.
Proverbs 1:7 " The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Jude 23: "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

[Jíbaro]

I think the fire and brimestone sermons basically made good theatre.
Actually, if we could convince Terrorists that instead of getting 72 sex slaves in their paradise, they are going to get 72 tormentors in hell, it would stop 90% of Terrorists.

[orbitaldecay]

I just have hard time thinking that people get saved by having faith in Hell, eternal torment, and Satan.

[Eye Heart Reagan]

I just have hard time thinking that people get saved by having faith in Hell, eternal torment, and Satan.
You don't get saved by having faith in hell and eternal damnation. You get saved from hell and damnation by having faith in Christ.

[Expo Man]

I'm curious where everyone thinks the Roman Soldiers who were apart of the crucifixion are going.

The Roman Soldiers who were a part of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ are in paradise right now if they trusted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and in torment right now if they did not.

[orbitaldecay]

You don't get saved by having faith in hell and eternal damnation. You get saved from hell and damnation by having faith in Christ.

But the premise of the Fire and Brimstone teaching is to scare people of hell, so they will believe in Jesus Christ.

Why not just teach about Christ and His teachings ?

[Eye Heart Reagan]

But the premise of the Fire and Brimstone teaching is to scare people of hell, so they will believe in Jesus Christ.

Why not just teach about Christ and His teachings ?

Because Hell is a scary place, and people want to warn other people so they won't go there.

Hell and Christ's love should both be taught, IMO.

[gpd®]

But the premise of the Fire and Brimstone teaching is to scare people of hell, so they will believe in Jesus Christ.

Why not just teach about Christ and His teachings ?

Different bait for different fish. You use lure for tuna and a sinker for cod. You don't use a sinker for tuna and a lure for cod.

[Alaric]

Actually, if we could convince Terrorists that instead of getting 72 sex slaves in their paradise, they are going to get 72 tormentors in hell, it would stop 90% of Terrorists.

The real terrorists? Or the uneducated lackeys on whom the real terrorists use religion as a tool to convince them to strap on a bomb?

[orbitaldecay]

Because Hell is a scary place, and people want to warn other people so they won't go there.

Hell and Christ's love should both be taught, IMO.

If I wanted to convince Joe-Six Pack to become a Christian which would be more effective AND true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

a) I have a message of Jesus Christ and His love for all of us. With this message you can learn the answers to life's questions, find eternal happiness, and eternal peace. :)

or

b) You are going to burn for eternity with Satan in fire and brimstone forever if you don't listen to my message!:mad:

[WALKINGHADLEY]

If this is your style of preaching, go right ahead. Some will respond, some will just ignore you. Condemning people with the law and then rescuing with the promise can be effective, but you may soon find it is not the only way to spread the Gospel. You may find it is somewhat remedial to some congregations. Lacking the proper depth, your listeners may begin to fade and your style will lose its shock value.

Good Luck!



There is nothing so frightning as reality. Our lives in America for the most part are pleasant and far removed from the horror of pure evil. We do see bits and pieces of Satanic activity in the news but we don't live with it constantly. Eternity seems to be so far off. No one around is concerned so why we should we?

We need to wake up and take action now. Jesus came from heaven to earth to die for our sins. He warned us that hell was real and many are heading there. The road is wide that leads to destruction but the gate is narrow that leads to salvation and few find it. We need to take our eternal souls seriously. Now is the time to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. For a few of us we may never see tomorrow.

The truth may seem to be harsh and ugly but the gospel is actually good news. Jesus death on the cross paved the way for us to be saved. God did everything he could to save us.......however his justice required that we freely accept him and his plan of salvation in this life. Everything we need to know about Christ and God the father is spelled out in the bible. We will be without excuse on judgement day if we try to say we did not know or was not sure it was all real. Yes he is a God of Love and he is also a holy God. No sin can stand in his presence. His death on the cross for our sins was love in action!

[Hadassah]

It's pretty simple actually. God loves all his children but feels a majority of them need to suffer for eternity in Hell.

Really? God's Word says just the opposite, that He doesn't want anyone to go to hell. The fact that some , or even many people, will go to hell is not because God wants them to.

[Hadassah]

Imagine you have never been exposed to religion until you become an adult. Then you discover a number of religions that tell you if you follow them you will go to heaven! But if you don't follow them you end up in hell! How do you know which of them is true? If you follow the wrong religion you end up in hell! Not for anything you've done, mind you. Just for the simple reason that you didn't believe the "right" things.

Seems a rather harsh penalty for not making the "right guess" if you ask me.

My faith doesn't teach that.

[Alaric]

Jesus death on the cross paved the way for us to be saved.

Yes, he did pave the way - for far more people than some exclusive clique Christians care to admit.

God did everything he could to save us.......however his justice required that we freely accept him and his plan of salvation in this life. Everything we need to know about Christ and God the father is spelled out in the bible. We will be without excuse on judgement day if we try to say we did not know or was not sure it was all real. Yes he is a God of Love and he is also a holy God. No sin can stand in his presence. His death on the cross for our sins was love in action!According to fundamental Christianity an Eoran who lived a millenia and a half after Christ died has been burning in hell for five centuries now - fourteen or fifteen times longer than she probably lived - and that isn't even the beginning of what she will endure. She was doomed to an eternity of excruciating suffering from the instant of her conception all because she was created by a 'just' God she never knew in a time and place where she absolutely could not have ever heard the name Jesus Christ, and her descendants' first encounter with anyone who could tell them resulted in their annihilation instead of conversion. Did God do everything he could to save the Eoran? He sent no angel, he sent no prophet, he sent no pope, he sent no missionary. Did God do anything at all to save the Eoran? Anything? He had over a millenia and a half to do something before they were wiped out by a plague He created. Your god is deaf to her cries and blind to her tears, and he planned it that way.

God in fact will do everything he can to save us, including the Eoran, but the doctrine of many Christain sects doesn't admit that He will for it condemns the Eoran, her family, her friends, her children, and everyone she knew, to hell forever without a second thought. And thus it falls short of the truth and denies the full scope and power of the atonement.

[Koushi Shinigami]

There is nothing so frightning as reality. Our lives in America for the most part are pleasant and far removed from the horror of pure evil. We do see bits and pieces of Satanic activity in the news but we don't live with it constantly. Eternity seems to be so far off. No one around is concerned so why we should we?

We need to wake up and take action now. Jesus came from heaven to earth to die for our sins. He warned us that hell was real and many are heading there. The road is wide that leads to destruction but the gate is narrow that leads to salvation and few find it. We need to take our eternal souls seriously. Now is the time to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. For a few of us we may never see tomorrow.

The truth may seem to be harsh and ugly but the gospel is actually good news. Jesus death on the cross paved the way for us to be saved. God did everything he could to save us.......however his justice required that we freely accept him and his plan of salvation in this life. Everything we need to know about Christ and God the father is spelled out in the bible. We will be without excuse on judgement day if we try to say we did not know or was not sure it was all real. Yes he is a God of Love and he is also a holy God. No sin can stand in his presence. His death on the cross for our sins was love in action!

And he has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you!

[Thank you Troops]

So, according to your beliefs, the outlaw biker goes to heaven while Mahatma Gandhi, a person who preached non-violence and had a positive influence on people all over the world, gets to spend eternity in the fire pits next to Hitler and Stalin.

This makes sense to you?



.


I don't complain when the biker has been bad their whole life and then gets saved on their death bed and goes to the same heaven as someone that has been good their whole life. What if the biker killed 10 people? It don't matter they are cleansed from all unrightesnous, and they go to the same heaven as saint. Is that fair?

It's not fair when someone kills someone else on this earth and gets away with it. This world is upside down when it comes to fairness. We don't know fairness because we look at it humanly and that's okay because we are human, but God isn't. I trust God to provide perfect justice for everyone.

[Jewell]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3557441432446312669


Here is Bill Weises Hell testimony.

[merryAtheist]

I don't have a Hell Testimony, but I have sat through an episode of Ugly Betty, which was pretty horrific.

[Poisonshady313]

Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenants?

Does nobody else see the irony?

[Poisonshady313]

If I wanted to convince Joe-Six Pack to become a Christian which would be more effective AND true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

a) I have a message of Jesus Christ and His love for all of us. With this message you can learn the answers to life's questions, find eternal happiness, and eternal peace. :)

or

b) You are going to burn for eternity with Satan in fire and brimstone forever if you don't listen to my message!:mad:

Everybody in this world who believes in/agrees with/accepts Pascal's Wager says b is more effective. Especially if you can't get to a without b.

[Lie Sniper]

There is nothing so frightning as reality. Our lives in America for the most part are pleasant and far removed from the horror of pure evil. We do see bits and pieces of Satanic activity in the news but we don't live with it constantly. Eternity seems to be so far off. No one around is concerned so why we should we?

We need to wake up and take action now. Jesus came from heaven to earth to die for our sins. He warned us that hell was real and many are heading there. The road is wide that leads to destruction but the gate is narrow that leads to salvation and few find it. We need to take our eternal souls seriously. Now is the time to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. For a few of us we may never see tomorrow.

The truth may seem to be harsh and ugly but the gospel is actually good news. Jesus death on the cross paved the way for us to be saved. God did everything he could to save us.......however his justice required that we freely accept him and his plan of salvation in this life. Everything we need to know about Christ and God the father is spelled out in the bible. We will be without excuse on judgement day if we try to say we did not know or was not sure it was all real. Yes he is a God of Love and he is also a holy God. No sin can stand in his presence. His death on the cross for our sins was love in action!

If this God you speak of loves me, why did he create me so that I sin? So he can fix it later?

It kind of reminds me of the times my manager at work creates problems within the work place, reports them to upper management, and then fixes said problems, then reports again to upper management as the hero. Interesting, considering he caused the problems in the first place!

[RayMan]

Does nobody else see the irony?

Hi Poison,
You are getting to the party a little late.


http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=44182841&postcount=3

[Poisonshady313]

Hi Poison,
You are getting to the party a little late.


http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=44182841&postcount=3

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say "I don't think that's what I meant" or "I don't think that's what he meant"... but I'm pretty sure I'm addressing something different than biggles.

I'm pretty sure he was addressing the use of the word tenants vs the word tenets.

I was addressing the oddity of a Christian asking "Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenets?"... when from the Jewish point of view, that's exactly what it looks like Christianity has done... declare themselves no longer bound by the tenets of the Torah.



Then of course, if you're following other threads, there are those who suggest nobody was ever bound by those tenets to begin with... but that's another story.

[Thor]

God did everything he could to save us.......however his justice required that we freely accept him and his plan of salvation in this life. Everything we need to know about Christ and God the father is spelled out in the bible. We will be without excuse on judgement day if we try to say we did not know or was not sure it was all real.

What about all the people who lived in the Americas prior to Columbus? They couldn't have possibly heard about "Jesus" or the Bible. Are they all burning in hell because they didn't accept Jesus as their salvation?

[Thor]

The Roman Soldiers who were a part of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ are in paradise right now if they trusted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and in torment right now if they did not.

And you know this for a fact? How?

[Thor]

My faith doesn't teach that.

Maybe not. But there are a number of faiths that teach exactly that.

[Thor]

I don't complain when the biker has been bad their whole life and then gets saved on their death bed and goes to the same heaven as someone that has been good their whole life. What if the biker killed 10 people? It don't matter they are cleansed from all unrightesnous, and they go to the same heaven as saint. Is that fair?

It's not fair when someone kills someone else on this earth and gets away with it. This world is upside down when it comes to fairness. We don't know fairness because we look at it humanly and that's okay because we are human, but God isn't. I trust God to provide perfect justice for everyone.

And you miss my point.

What about Gandhi? He is universally accepted as one of the great figures of the 20th century. He is honored and respected by people around the world. But, according to you, he is burning in the fire pits of hell for the simple "crime" of not accepting Jesus as his savior.

This makes sense to you?

[RayMan]

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say "I don't think that's what I meant" or "I don't think that's what he meant"... but I'm pretty sure I'm addressing something different than biggles.

I'm pretty sure he was addressing the use of the word tenants vs the word tenets.

I was addressing the oddity of a Christian asking "Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenets?"... when from the Jewish point of view, that's exactly what it looks like Christianity has done... declare themselves no longer bound by the tenets of the Torah.



Then of course, if you're following other threads, there are those who suggest nobody was ever bound by those tenets to begin with... but that's another story.

Ok, NOW I see the irony. Thanks for clarifying.

[Thank you Troops]

And you miss my point.

What about Gandhi? He is universally accepted as one of the great figures of the 20th century. He is honored and respected by people around the world. But, according to you, he is burning in the fire pits of hell for the simple "crime" of not accepting Jesus as his savior.

This makes sense to you?

What you are trying to say is that Gandhi's good outweighs his bad. That may be true and there are religions in the world that us scales to determine who gets to Heaven. Jesus doesn't. We all fall short.

Do we know how many sins Gandhi committed on a daily basis? Can a person get through a day without sinning? God not only looks at the act, but at the heart. If we lust in our hearts we are just as guilty as if we committed the act. I could be in church every Sunday and people would be saying "what a great guy and holy he is" but I could be lusting after someone in there. I could be there for the wrong reason, that is called missing the mark and we are all guilty, even Gandhi.

[Thor]

What you are trying to say is that Gandhi's good outweighs his bad. That may be true and there are religions in the world that us scales to determine who gets to Heaven. Jesus doesn't. We all fall short.

Do we know how many sins Gandhi committed on a daily basis? Can a person get through a day without sinning? God not only looks at the act, but at the heart. If we lust in our hearts we are just as guilty as if we committed the act. I could be in church every Sunday and people would be saying "what a great guy and holy he is" but I could be lusting after someone in there. I could be there for the wrong reason, that is called missing the mark and we are all guilty, even Gandhi.

You still haven't answered my question.

Yes, we all "sin", even Gandhi. However, I was not addressing the issue of "sin".

I am specifically asking about Gandhi being sent to hell for the "offense" of not accepting Jesus as his savior.

Let's assume you and Gandhi committed identical sins. You accept Jesus as your savior. Gandhi does not. Do you think it is reasonable to send Gandhi to hell while you get to enjoy heaven?

[Koushi Shinigami]

What you are trying to say is that Gandhi's good outweighs his bad. That may be true and there are religions in the world that us scales to determine who gets to Heaven. Jesus doesn't. We all fall short.

Do we know how many sins Gandhi committed on a daily basis? Can a person get through a day without sinning? God not only looks at the act, but at the heart. If we lust in our hearts we are just as guilty as if we committed the act. I could be in church every Sunday and people would be saying "what a great guy and holy he is" but I could be lusting after someone in there. I could be there for the wrong reason, that is called missing the mark and we are all guilty, even Gandhi.


So much for knowing someone by the fruit they bear.

[Thank you Troops]

You still haven't answered my question.

Yes, we all "sin", even Gandhi. However, I was not addressing the issue of "sin".

I am specifically asking about Gandhi being sent to hell for the "offense" of not accepting Jesus as his savior.

Let's assume you and Gandhi committed identical sins. You accept Jesus as your savior. Gandhi does not. Do you think it is reasonable to send Gandhi to hell while you get to enjoy heaven?

We can't address heaven and hell without addressing sin. There is an old saying that you can't get someone saved until they first know that they are lost, or need salvation. We must first recognize that we are a sinner in order to get saved.

Okay, Gandhi and I are both guilty of sin, I believe that is a true statement, just like every person who every lived except Jesus. Jesus comes along and says repent and believe in me and I will forgive you your sins. I do it and Gandhi does not. We both make our own beds. I accepted the intercession and pardon, Gandhi took his chance with the judge. Maybe Gandhi felt he was good enough to make it on his own, and I didn't. It is fair for everyone to make their own decisions yes.

[Thor]

If we lust in our hearts we are just as guilty as if we committed the act.

So, if I think something I'm just as guilty as someone who commits the act? If that's the case, why not just commit the act? I'm going to be punished the same either way.

If I have a fight with someone and in a fit of rage I imagine myself strangling the person, I'm just as guilty of murder as if I actually did the deed?

This seems utterly ridiculous to me.

[Koushi Shinigami]

"Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most respected leaders of modern history. A Hindu, Ghandi nevertheless admired Jesus and often quoted from the Sermon on the Mount. Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, "Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?"


Ghandi replied, "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."


Apparently Ghandi's rejection of Christianity grew out of an incident that happened when he was a young man practising law in South Africa. He had become attracted to the Christian faith, had studied the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, and was seriously exploring becoming a Christian. And so he decided to attend a church service. As he came up the steps of the large church where he intended to go, a white South African elder of the church barred his way at the door. "Where do you think you're going, RACIAL SLUR DELETED?" the man asked Ghandi in a belligerent tone of voice.


Ghandi replied, "I'd like to attend worship here."


The church elder snarled at him, "There's no room for RACIAL SLUR DELETED in this church. Get out of here or I'll have my assistants throw you down the steps."


From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church."


http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/552.htm


Personally, I'd rather be Gandhi than the 'good christian' that turned a soul away from God and Christ.

[Thank you Troops]

So, if I think something I'm just as guilty as someone who commits the act? If that's the case, why not just commit the act? I'm going to be punished the same either way.

If I have a fight with someone and in a fit of rage I imagine myself strangling the person, I'm just as guilty of murder as if I actually did the deed?

This seems utterly ridiculous to me.

Because I would be punished in jail, plus I have been changed and although I still struggle with sin, I know it is wrong and want to please God. I am becoming more and more like Jesus as time goes by, that is part of being a Christian, we are changed, different, odd, we don't seek revenge.

[Thor]

Okay, Gandhi and I are both guilty of sin, I believe that is a true statement, just like every person who every lived except Jesus. Jesus comes along and says repent and believe in me and I will forgive you your sins. I do it and Gandhi does not. We both make our own beds. I accepted the intercession and pardon, Gandhi took his chance with the judge. Maybe Gandhi felt he was good enough to make it on his own, and I didn't. It is fair for everyone to make their own decisions yes.

So you believe that someone can get into heaven even though they haven't accepted Jesus. Correct?

[Thor]

"Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most respected leaders of modern history. A Hindu, Ghandi nevertheless admired Jesus and often quoted from the Sermon on the Mount. Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, "Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?"


Ghandi replied, "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."


Apparently Ghandi's rejection of Christianity grew out of an incident that happened when he was a young man practising law in South Africa. He had become attracted to the Christian faith, had studied the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, and was seriously exploring becoming a Christian. And so he decided to attend a church service. As he came up the steps of the large church where he intended to go, a white South African elder of the church barred his way at the door. "Where do you think you're going, RACIAL SLUR DELETED?" the man asked Ghandi in a belligerent tone of voice.


Ghandi replied, "I'd like to attend worship here."


The church elder snarled at him, "There's no room for RACIAL SLUR DELETED in this church. Get out of here or I'll have my assistants throw you down the steps."


From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church."


http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/552.htm


Personally, I'd rather be Gandhi than the 'good christian' that turned a soul away from God and Christ.

It's amazing how often you can find hate in a place that's supposed to be about love.

[Koushi Shinigami]

it's amazing how often you can find hate in a place that's supposed to be about love.

+1

[Marleysdaddy]

So much for knowing someone by the fruit they bear.

Don't get me started on that one...remember 'mitchm'? :D

[Thank you Troops]

So you believe that someone can get into heaven even though they haven't accepted Jesus. Correct?

No, I never said that.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Don't get me started on that one...remember 'mitchm'? :D

If I did, I forgot. :(

[JStasc08]

Really? God's Word says just the opposite, that He doesn't want anyone to go to hell. The fact that some , or even many people, will go to hell is not because God wants them to.

If God is against people going to hell why would he send anyone there? Is he in some way obligated to send people there or does he feel an eternity is ample time to pay for a few decades or less of sinning?

[Koushi Shinigami]

No, I never said that.

You implied it here:



I accepted the intercession and pardon, Gandhi took his chance with the judge. Maybe Gandhi felt he was good enough to make it on his own, and I didn't. It is fair for everyone to make their own decisions yes.

Says there's a chance.

[Eye Heart Reagan]

If God is against people going to hell why would he send anyone there? Is he in some way obligated to send people there or does he feel an eternity is ample time to pay for a few decades or less of sinning?
God doesn't send people to hell. People have free will; they can accept God's free gift of salvation and be forgiven or not. But if they don't, they won't enter the Kingdom of God because God can't abide in the presence of sin; therefore, no sin can abide in Heaven. A person must have his sins forgiven and wiped away in order to enter the Kingdom of God. God doesn't force it upon anyone.

Hell was not created for man, but for the devil and the devil's angels (demons).

[Thor]

No, I never said that.

As Koushi has pointed out, you kind of implied it.

So what do you believe? Can a person get into heaven if they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior?

Yes or no.

[Thor]

A person must have his sins forgiven and wiped away in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

And how does someone accomplish this?

[Eye Heart Reagan]

And how does someone accomplish this?

By believing/having faith in Christ - becoming "born again".

[Marleysdaddy]

By believing/having faith in Christ - becoming "born again".

can one lose it? once you are born again, do you always have it (salvation/potential to enter the kingdom of god)?

[Thank you Troops]

You implied it here:




Says there's a chance.

I didn't mean to imply that, if someone doesn't accept Jesus to me that is like taking their chances with the judge. They will stand in front of God and the Bible says every knee will bow to Jesus, and Jesus will say "go away I never knew you".

[Thank you Troops]

As Koushi has pointed out, you kind of implied it.

So what do you believe? Can a person get into heaven if they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior?

Yes or no.

My belief is that is a no.

[Koushi Shinigami]

My belief is your belief is wrong.

[Eye Heart Reagan]

can one lose it? once you are born again, do you always have it (salvation/potential to enter the kingdom of god)?

I believe not, because I think a man cannot be "unreborn" and go from being a "new creation" with the nature of Christ back to an "old creation". with the sin nature.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Man can die.

[Thor]

My belief is that is a no.

So, the only people who get into heaven are Christians? Doesn't matter what kind of person you are? You could be a doctor who treats the poor for free. You could give away all the money you earn to feed hungry children. You could donate blood regularly. You could donate a kidney to a stranger. And all this means nothing unless you accept Jesus?

I must also ask about all the people who lived their lives and never heard of Jesus or the Bible. For example, all the Native American people who lived before Columbus arrived. Are they all in hell simply because they had the "misfortune" to live in an area of the world where the story of Jesus hadn't yet been told?

[Thor]

I didn't mean to imply that, if someone doesn't accept Jesus to me that is like taking their chances with the judge. They will stand in front of God and the Bible says every knee will bow to Jesus, and Jesus will say "go away I never knew you".

So all those Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc... are just screwed?

[Koushi Shinigami]

So, the only people who get into heaven are Christians? Doesn't matter what kind of person you are? You could be a doctor who treats the poor for free. You could give away all the money you earn to feed hungry children. You could donate blood regularly. You could donate a kidney to a stranger. And all this means nothing unless you accept Jesus?



None of those actions are good if performed by a non-believer. An unsaved man can do no good.

Now if that man has been saved, then all those things you list would be good acts.

[Pudge]

Why is this not considered an advertising thread?

[Lie Sniper]

I believe not, because I think a man cannot be "unreborn" and go from being a "new creation" with the nature of Christ back to an "old creation". with the sin nature.

So, a person who is reborn, is sinless?

[Thor]

None of those actions are good if performed by a non-believer. An unsaved man can do no good.

Now if that man has been saved, then all those things you list would be good acts.

It seems that what you do is less important than what you believe.

I can't buy into that thinking at all.

[Pudge]

So all non-Christians go to hell?

This would include Gandhi, Carl Sagan, the Dalai Lama and Albert Einstein.

Not to mention that if Josef Stalin or Adolf Hitler accepted Christ just prior to their deaths, they would be in heaven.

[Koushi Shinigami]

It seems that what you do is less important than what you believe.

I can't buy into that thinking at all.

I tend to agree with you.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Not to mention that if Josef Stalin or Adolf Hitler accepted Christ just prior to their deaths, they would be in heaven.

Meh. I don't really care much about their fate. Got enough to do taking care of my stuff.

[Pudge]

Meh. I don't really care much about their fate. Got enough to do taking care of my stuff.

I don't care either, as far as I know they're both dead, period.

The rhetorical point is, where's the justice?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Above my pay grade.

[Thor]

I tend to agree with you.

Nice to have someone on these boards agree with me once in awhile!:D:D:D

[Thor]

Not to mention that if Josef Stalin or Adolf Hitler accepted Christ just prior to their deaths, they would be in heaven.

Yes, Hitler could be in heaven if he had accepted Jesus just before he died. Then we'd have the odd situation where Hitler is in heaven and all those Jewish people he killed are in hell because they didn't accept Jesus.

:confused::confused::confused:

[orbitaldecay]

So, the only people who get into heaven are Christians? Doesn't matter what kind of person you are? You could be a doctor who treats the poor for free. You could give away all the money you earn to feed hungry children. You could donate blood regularly. You could donate a kidney to a stranger. And all this means nothing unless you accept Jesus?

I must also ask about all the people who lived their lives and never heard of Jesus or the Bible. For example, all the Native American people who lived before Columbus arrived. Are they all in hell simply because they had the "misfortune" to live in an area of the world where the story of Jesus hadn't yet been told?

Perhaps it was...:whistle:

[orbitaldecay]

Not that anyone recognizes this as scripture, but it may apply:

2 Nephi 29:11
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

Like I said before, I believe all people that don't hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ during their life, will have a chance to to accept Christ in the next life.

[hillplus]

So, the only people who get into heaven are Christians? Doesn't matter what kind of person you are? You could be a doctor who treats the poor for free. You could give away all the money you earn to feed hungry children. You could donate blood regularly. You could donate a kidney to a stranger. And all this means nothing unless you accept Jesus?

I must also ask about all the people who lived their lives and never heard of Jesus or the Bible. For example, all the Native American people who lived before Columbus arrived. Are they all in hell simply because they had the "misfortune" to live in an area of the world where the story of Jesus hadn't yet been told?

Good questions! :mrgreen:

[Eye Heart Reagan]

So, a person who is reborn, is sinless?
The spirit of a Christian, which is how God judges a person, is perfect.

The reason a Christian sins at all is because his flesh is imperfect and he is susceptible to succumbing to the devil's temptations.

[budjaz]

If I wanted to convince Joe-Six Pack to become a Christian which would be more effective AND true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

b) You are going to burn for eternity with Satan in fire and brimstone forever if you don't listen to my message!:mad:

B would scare me enough me to listen!!! LOL

[orbitaldecay]

B would scare me enough me to listen!!! LOL

But is it true to the message of Jesus Christ?

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I just think optimism and hope is a better tool to convince people than fear.

[BlackDirge]

God doesn't send people to hell. People have free will; they can accept God's free gift of salvation and be forgiven or not. But if they don't, they won't enter the Kingdom of God because God can't abide in the presence of sin; therefore, no sin can abide in Heaven. A person must have his sins forgiven and wiped away in order to enter the Kingdom of God. God doesn't force it upon anyone.

Hell was not created for man, but for the devil and the devil's angels (demons).

This flies in this face of God’s supposed omniscience. If God already knows everything in the past, present, and future, then he has made up his mind regarding your fate long ago. So there is no free will with an omniscient deity. You don’t “choose” anything; God has already chosen for you.

In the omniscient scenario, God knows at the moment of your birth whether you are bound for hell or not. You can’t alter that. If you did, God would be wrong, and would no longer be omniscient. But worse than that, if the above is true, God obviously wants some people to go to hell. If he didn’t, he would use his omnipotence to keep them from eternal suffering due to a choice they never truly had.

It’s an ugly little paradox; and one of the primary reasons I abandoned Christianity (along with all religions) many years ago.

BD

[gpd®]

Whatever happened to the fear of God in America? Remember stories about Hell and eternal damnation? Has God softened over time? Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenants? Almost all of us live in denial. Today even Christians tend to shy away from the subject. Did you know that Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven? Hell is real place. Once we face Gods judgement there will be no appeal, no amnesty and no hope. For those who rejected Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation hell awaits.

Bill Wiese was not raised on fire and brimstone. No he is a quiet reserved man most unlikely to be chosen by God for such a grim mission. In 1998 God showed Bill Weise a vision and took him to hell in all of its darkness and despair. God gave Bill Weise the task of warning us that hell is real and worse than we can imagine. Jesus Christ paid the price for mans salvation but most men reject him and live selfish self centered lives. God wants to remind us that we need his forgiveness and mercy now. When we die it will be too late.

Bill Weise was led to write a book about his experiences. Its called "23 minutes in Hell". This book should be a wake up call for the modern church. We are supposed to be the light of the world. Christians need to come out of the closet and stand up and be counted. While we are alive lets spread the good news of the gospel of Christ and save men from an eternity of torment. The Lord Jesus Christ paid a steep price with his precious blood for our salvation. Bill Weise is doing his part. How can we do any less?

My NDE was nothing like his. When I had my NDE during an overdose, I was thrust into a very cold gray space. A massive void of nothingness. A real hell.

[Poisonshady313]

Ok, NOW I see the irony. Thanks for clarifying.

:D

That's why you're one of my favorites, Ray. You understand the things I post the way I hope to be understood.


Good times.

[LeroyBrown]

Whatever happened to the fear of God in America? Remember stories about Hell and eternal damnation? Has God softened over time? Was his holy word recalled so we no longer are bound by its tenants? Almost all of us live in denial. Today even Christians tend to shy away from the subject. Did you know that Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven? Hell is real place. Once we face Gods judgement there will be no appeal, no amnesty and no hope. For those who rejected Jesus Christ and his plan of salvation hell awaits.

Bill Wiese was not raised on fire and brimstone. No he is a quiet reserved man most unlikely to be chosen by God for such a grim mission. In 1998 God showed Bill Weise a vision and took him to hell in all of its darkness and despair. God gave Bill Weise the task of warning us that hell is real and worse than we can imagine. Jesus Christ paid the price for mans salvation but most men reject him and live selfish self centered lives. God wants to remind us that we need his forgiveness and mercy now. When we die it will be too late.

Bill Weise was led to write a book about his experiences. Its called "23 minutes in Hell". This book should be a wake up call for the modern church. We are supposed to be the light of the world. Christians need to come out of the closet and stand up and be counted. While we are alive lets spread the good news of the gospel of Christ and save men from an eternity of torment. The Lord Jesus Christ paid a steep price with his precious blood for our salvation. Bill Weise is doing his part. How can we do any less?

This was probably asked and answered but how does Bill Weise get around the whole problem where Jesus himself states that if someone isn't going to believe when they have the law and the prophets, someone coming back from the dead isn't going to convince them either?

[Christian Voter]

This flies in this face of God’s supposed omniscience. If God already knows everything in the past, present, and future, then he has made up his mind regarding your fate long ago. So there is no free will with an omniscient deity. You don’t “choose” anything; God has already chosen for you.

In the omniscient scenario, God knows at the moment of your birth whether you are bound for hell or not. You can’t alter that. If you did, God would be wrong, and would no longer be omniscient. But worse than that, if the above is true, God obviously wants some people to go to hell. If he didn’t, he would use his omnipotence to keep them from eternal suffering due to a choice they never truly had.

It’s an ugly little paradox; and one of the primary reasons I abandoned Christianity (along with all religions) many years ago.

BD

I can't figure out your "logic".
If God knows everything before hand, including who is going to go to Heaven and who isn't, that doesn't mean that He would want to change things so that everyone would go there. I believe that He doesn't want anyone to suffer in hell, but He gives us the freedom to choose what we do, so that those who will not choose eternal life with Him, deserve what happens to them because of their actions.

God doesn't choose for anyone, He gives everyone the freedom to choose, and gives us rules and help on the way, and lets us have the freedom to choose our own reward, by our actions and obedience.
Part of what makes Heaven a wonderful place, is that we have to work to earn the right to be there. The people that God knew wouldn't deserve to be there, He gave the freedom to prove themselves in this life, whether they would choose to live with Him or not. He knew what they would do, but they can't be punished unless they had the choice and made the wrong one.

[Marleysdaddy]

I believe not, because I think a man cannot be "unreborn" and go from being a "new creation" with the nature of Christ back to an "old creation". with the sin nature.

Then there is a chance some pretty crummy people like Timothy McVeigh are in heaven...but really excellent people like Susan B. Anthony are in hell. That doesn't seem right or just, does it?

[Thank you Troops]

Then there is a chance some pretty crummy people like Timothy McVeigh are in heaven...but really excellent people like Susan B. Anthony are in hell. That doesn't seem right or just, does it?


It sounds like you want to judge people, but we have to let God. Jesus said if you hate someone you are guilty of murder in God's eyes. Christians are killed all the time because of their faith in Jesus, is that just or right? Justice belongs to the Lord.

[Poisonshady313]

It sounds like you want to judge people, but we have to let God. Jesus said if you hate someone you are guilty of murder in God's eyes. Christians are killed all the time because of their faith in Jesus, is that just or right? Justice belongs to the Lord.

There's a whole book of the bible called Judges.

There's a whole section of the Torah called Judges.


I'm pretty sure God is ok with us judging people... just as long as it is just.

[Thank you Troops]

There's a whole book of the bible called Judges.

There's a whole section of the Torah called Judges.


I'm pretty sure God is ok with us judging people... just as long as it is just.

Yes we can judge their acts when considering punishment, but not their eternal place in heaven or hell, that is left for God.

[RayMan]

:D

That's why you're one of my favorites, Ray. You understand the things I post the way I hope to be understood.


Good times.

Ditto my friend.

[Poisonshady313]

Yes we can judge their acts when considering punishment, but not their eternal place in heaven or hell, that is left for God.

When it comes to blowing up buildings filled with innocent people... while God makes the decision, we can make an educated guess.

[Marleysdaddy]

Justice belongs to the Lord.


only if the lord is just

[bobfisher]

Did you know that Jesus talked about hell more than he did heaven?

No, he didn't. Have you ever bothered to actually check that out, or are you just regurgitating.

[bobfisher]

Judgment belongs to the Lord but so does mercy.

Deuteronomy 32:35 Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.' 36 "For the LORD will judge His people And have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their power is gone, And there is no one remaining, bond or free.

The Lord will judge His people.
The Lord will also have compassion on His people.

The Lord is just and will judge justly.

[Koushi Shinigami]

There's a whole book of the bible called Judges.

There's a whole section of the Torah called Judges.


I'm pretty sure God is ok with us judging people... just as long as it is just.

Perhaps God is but Jesus isn't. After all, it was he who was quoted as saying "Judge not..." :think:

[gpd®]

Perhaps God is but Jesus isn't. After all, it was he who was quoted as saying "Judge not..." :think:

That's the point Christian apologists have been making for eons.

Either He is or He isn't. There is no in between. He is either God or He was insane. The choice is ours to make.

[Alaric]

I'm sure many of you have all seen these recent news photos.

http://pictures.directnews.co.uk/live/photo7013689.JPG

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/photo/photo-x-$7013688$180.jpg


These are pictures taken in May of this year from an airplane that flew over a remote part of Brazil. This is a tribe which has never had contact with white men. Our world is completely unknown to them and prior to May their existence was unknown to anyone else. Other than the airplane which flew over, they have to this date still not had contact with anyone from outside their part of the jungle. Nor are they likely to - they will be protected from outside interference by the Brazilian government.

They are not the only ones. In October of 2007 a tribe which had never before had contact with the outside world was discovered in Peru.

And in 2000 an airplane overflew an unknown village. In April 2001 an 11 member team from Brazil made first contact with them and discovered that they had never had contact with white people before.

By some estimates there are still about 40 undiscovered tribes in Brazil which have never had any contact with the outside world and about 15 such tribes in Peru. Worldwide the number is estimated to be about 100 tribes. (reference) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/30/brazil.conservation1)

So here we are, well into the second decade of the third milleinum after the advent of Jesus Christ - some think we are on the very verge of his Second Coming, and there are still groups of people on the planet who absolutely could not have ever heard of Him.

And amazingly, there are zealots in the world who are ready to proclaim the eternal excruciating torment of these people and say that their god is just in doing so without a second thought. Nothing is further than the truth.

All men, whether just or unjust, upon death are taken into the spirit world, and there the just who believed that the atonement of Christ is far more reaching and universal will mingle with those who did not have opportunity to know of Him - and having faith that His atonement will be available to those, they will teach them the gospel. And among those who never heard Christ while in life will be some who have a faith greater than the 'proud saved' who condemned them to burn in hell, it will be a greater faith because they will have hope that Christ will be merciful and redeem them as well.

[Lie Sniper]

All men, whether just or unjust, upon death are taken into the spirit world, and there the just who believed that the atonement of Christ is far more reaching and universal will mingle with those who did not have opportunity to know of Him - and having faith that His atonement will be available to those, they will teach them the gospel. And among those who never heard Christ while in life will be some who have a faith greater than the 'proud saved' who condemned them to burn in hell, it will be a greater faith because they will have hope that Christ will be merciful and redeem them as well.

If after death is as you describe, what would be the purpose of faith?
If I enter into a spirit world, I will know there is life after death. Faith is no longer necessary.

The same could be said for those who believe the wrong thing and for those who lack any belief at all.

So I could not know, or live in celebration of sin, because I did not believe, yet end up in the same boat as those who new and struggled through this life trying to live in accordance with their perceived understanding of God's will. :think:

Sounds easier and more fun to not know or not believe.

[Marleysdaddy]

Either He is or He isn't. There is no in between. He is either God or He was insane. The choice is ours to make.

You left out one horn of the Lewis Trilemma :)

[Eye Heart Reagan]

So I could not know, or live in celebration of sin, because I did not believe, yet end up in the same boat as those who new and struggled through this life trying to live in accordance with their perceived understanding of God's will. :think:

Sounds easier and more fun to not know or not believe.

What can we say about the eternal destination of those who do not know or have not heard the truth?

I believe we have to consider three things:

(1) Christ said that no one comes to the Father but by him.

(2) Jesus did say that those who are "blind" are not held accountable for their sin. Now whether this means "blind to what sin is" or "blind to the truth", I am not sure. But what it does tell me is that the spiritually blind are held to a different standard for their judgment than Christians are.

(3) Jesus also said if people had not heard him, they would not be held accountable for sin.

So in summary, Yes, eternal life with God is only through Christ, but if it is even possible that some people "are spiritually blind" or "never heard Jesus", those people would be judged by Jesus using some standard other than the standard used to judge the rest of us (which is whether or not the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from the stain of sin). What would that standard of judgment be? I don't know, but I think it might be safe to say that those who never heard of Jesus won't automatically necessarily go to hell just because they didn't accept Christ.

[Marleysdaddy]

What can we say about the eternal destination of those who do not know or have not heard the truth?

I believe we have to consider three things:

(1) Christ said that no one comes to the Father but by him.

Well, that depends greatly on how one chooses to translate the Greek (and even then, we can't be sure that Jesus the Christ actually said that).
I could quite correctly translate that verse as

"I AM (as in the name of god) the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through him."

or

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through the way, the truth, and the life."

[Alaric]

If after death is as you describe, what would be the purpose of faith?
If I enter into a spirit world, I will know there is life after death. Faith is no longer necessary.

The same could be said for those who believe the wrong thing and for those who lack any belief at all.


If you heard the Gospel in this life but rejected it, and then you discovered that there was an afterlife and that you were wrong you would know that you were in deep. That person isn't going to be able to exercise faith.

But if you never heard of Christ, then arrive in the afterlife completely ignorant, you would still have no knowledge of Him, nor any understanding of why you were there - unitl you were taught by someone, and then you could still exercise faith that when brought before the judgment bar, He would save you too.

We are not talking about second chances here. We are talking about everyone getting a first chance.

[Eye Heart Reagan]

Well, that depends greatly on how one chooses to translate the Greek (and even then, we can't be sure that Jesus the Christ actually said that).
I could quite correctly translate that verse as

"I AM (as in the name of god) the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through him."

Even if it were translated that way, there are verses in whcih Christ says that "I and the Father are one and the same" and "if you have seen the Father, you have seen me", so if Jesus and the Father are one, then going through God is the same as going through Jesus.

or

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through the way, the truth, and the life."

Then I'll add the nessary conclusion to that translation:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through the way, the truth, and the life, (which is, as I said earlier, me). So, no one comes to the Father except through me."

And it all means the same thing anyway.

[Lie Sniper]

I believe we have to consider three things:

(1) Christ said that no one comes to the Father but by him.

And God said to Moses "You shall have no other Gods"
So after God said that, why would he send his son as a human, telling everyone he is God?:think:

(2) Jesus did say that those who are "blind" are not held accountable for their sin. Now whether this means "blind to what sin is" or "blind to the truth", I am not sure. But what it does tell me is that the spiritually blind are held to a different standard for their judgment than Christians are.

So that could include everyone who is not Christian, but has faith in God, in some form, correct?

(3) Jesus also said if people had not heard him, they would not be held accountable for sin.

Seems fair to me, but I'm not the judge.

So in summary, Yes, eternal life with God is only through Christ, but if it is even possible that some people "are spiritually blind" or "never heard Jesus", those people would be judged by Jesus using some standard other than the standard used to judge the rest of us (which is whether or not the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from the stain of sin). What would that standard of judgment be? I don't know, but I think it might be safe to say that those who never heard of Jesus won't automatically necessarily go to hell just because they didn't accept Christ.

What of the many forms of Christianity. One could be correct and the rest would be false. Or what if they are all wrong? Would this be considered spiritually blind?

What happens to the Jews? They were/are Gods choosen people. Why would God choose these people, spend all that time trying to show himself and his will, and then change the rules or his mind and now condemn these people for not worshipping Jesus after he made it clear that they shall have no other Gods? Did God fail to properly show his will in the OT? Did he scrap it all and start fresh with Jesus?

[Lie Sniper]

If you heard the Gospel in this life but rejected it, and then you discovered that there was an afterlife and that you were wrong you would know that you were in deep. That person isn't going to be able to exercise faith.

Assuming you heard the correct Gospel.

But if you never heard of Christ, then arrive in the afterlife completely ignorant, you would still have no knowledge of Him, nor any understanding of why you were there - unitl you were taught by someone, and then you could still exercise faith that when brought before the judgment bar, He would save you too.

Seems fair to me. I get lost when we consider our call to spread the Gospel. (Our purpose) If people can just hear the Gospel after death, why all the struggles to spread it in this life?

We are not talking about second chances here. We are talking about everyone getting a first chance.

So do you get another first chance if you were hearing what you perceived to be the correct Gospel in this life, believed it, but you were wrong?

[RayMan]

Assuming you heard the correct Gospel.

Seems fair to me. I get lost when we consider our call to spread the Gospel. (Our purpose) If people can just hear the Gospel after death, why all the struggles to spread it in this life?

So do you get another first chance if you were hearing what you perceived to be the correct Gospel in this life, believed it, but you were wrong?

Another first chance seems like a contradiction in terms to me.

[Lie Sniper]

Another first chance seems like a contradiction in terms to me.

It would work out as hearing the "perceived" truth in this life(First chance) and hearing the "actual" truth after death. (First chance)

another first chance.:)

[RayMan]

It would work out as hearing the "perceived" truth in this life(First chance) and hearing the "actual" truth after death. (First chance)

another first chance.:)


Good save. :mrgreen:

[Lie Sniper]

Good save. :mrgreen:

;)

[Alaric]

If people can just hear the Gospel after death, why all the struggles to spread it in this life?
Where much is given much is expected. But its hardly fair to torture someone forever because Missionary Billy Jeffrey Ray Bubba was a slacker.



So do you get another first chance if you were hearing what you perceived to be the correct Gospel in this life, believed it, but you were wrong? If you heard the correct gospel and rejected it then its going to be hard to exercise faith when you find out you were wrong. But if you heard only your tribal shaman and believed him/her, you never had a chance to accept or reject Christ.

[Lie Sniper]

Where much is given much is expected. But its hardly fair to torture someone forever because Missionary Billy Jeffrey Ray Bubba was a slacker.

Good one!:)

If you heard the correct gospel and rejected it then its going to be hard to exercise faith when you find out you were wrong. But if you heard only your tribal shaman and believed him/her, you never had a chance to accept or reject Christ.

So how do you know you are hearing the correct Gospel? What if the supposed gospel you are hearing is not the truth, but you assume it is, because what you think to be the Holy spirit working in you, is really your own need to believe.

What if you then by-pass the actual truth when you hear it, because what you previously came to believe, will not allow you to recognize the actual truth?

[orbitaldecay]

Good one!:)



So how do you know you are hearing the correct Gospel? What if the supposed gospel you are hearing is not the truth, but you assume it is, because what you think to be the Holy spirit working in you, is really your own need to believe.

What if you then by-pass the actual truth when you hear it, because what you previously came to believe, will not allow you to recognize the actual truth?

Lucky for us and them, that is for God to decide.

But I think, both me and Alaric believe everyone will have the opportunity to accept Christ and His Gospel, whether in this life or the next.

[Snow]

Bill Weise was led to write a book about his experiences. Its called "23 minutes in Hell". This book should be a wake up call for the modern church. We are supposed to be the light of the world. Christians need to come out of the closet and stand up and be counted. While we are alive lets spread the good news of the gospel of Christ and save men from an eternity of torment. The Lord Jesus Christ paid a steep price with his precious blood for our salvation. Bill Weise is doing his part. How can we do any less? [/SIZE]

They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm...
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

This guy has been eating some bad pasta...

"I began to look around. Immediately I realized that I was not alone in this cell. I saw two enormous beasts, unlike anything I had ever seen before.


These creatures were approximately ten to thirteen feet tall. These towering beasts were far, far beyond intimidating. It is one thing to be threatened by someone much taller than you. But these creatures were not of this natural world. I recognized that they were entirely evil, and they were gazing at me with pure, unrestrained hatred, which completely paralyzed me with fear. "Evil" and "Terror" stood before me. Those creatures were an intensely concentrated manifestation of those two forces.

I still had no idea where I was, and I felt utterly panicked. Although I had no point of reference, no familiarity with anything I was experiencing, and no understanding of how I got here, still I was faced with the unimaginable reality that a tortuous death seemed certain.

The creatures weren't animals, but they weren't human, either. Each giant beast resembled a reptile in appearance, but took on human form. Their arms and legs were unequal in length, out of proportion—without symmetry. The first one had bumps and scales all over its grotesque body. It had a huge protruding jaw, gigantic teeth, and large sunken-in eyes. This creature was stout and powerful, with thick legs and abnormally large feet. It was pacing violently around the cell like a caged bull, and its demeanor was extremely ferocious. The second beast was taller and thinner, with very long arms and razor-sharp fins that covered its body. Protruding from its hands were claws that were nearly a foot long. Its personality seemed different from the first being. It was certainly no less evil, but it remained rather still."

[Lie Sniper]

Lucky for us and them, that is for God to decide.

So you, nor I, can ever really know for sure that what we are hearing/following is the truth?

Why do you think God allows all the different variations to his truth?
He either excepts one variation or none of them. Don't you think?

But I think, both me and Alaric believe everyone will have the opportunity to accept Christ and His Gospel, whether in this life or the next.

I hope you're right. I hope we all get a chance to hear the actual truth.
I guess we will all just be stuck floundering until that time comes.

[Thank you Troops]

They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm...
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

This guy has been eating some bad pasta...

"I began to look around. Immediately I realized that I was not alone in this cell. I saw two enormous beasts, unlike anything I had ever seen before.


These creatures were approximately ten to thirteen feet tall. These towering beasts were far, far beyond intimidating. It is one thing to be threatened by someone much taller than you. But these creatures were not of this natural world. I recognized that they were entirely evil, and they were gazing at me with pure, unrestrained hatred, which completely paralyzed me with fear. "Evil" and "Terror" stood before me. Those creatures were an intensely concentrated manifestation of those two forces.

I still had no idea where I was, and I felt utterly panicked. Although I had no point of reference, no familiarity with anything I was experiencing, and no understanding of how I got here, still I was faced with the unimaginable reality that a tortuous death seemed certain.

The creatures weren't animals, but they weren't human, either. Each giant beast resembled a reptile in appearance, but took on human form. Their arms and legs were unequal in length, out of proportion—without symmetry. The first one had bumps and scales all over its grotesque body. It had a huge protruding jaw, gigantic teeth, and large sunken-in eyes. This creature was stout and powerful, with thick legs and abnormally large feet. It was pacing violently around the cell like a caged bull, and its demeanor was extremely ferocious. The second beast was taller and thinner, with very long arms and razor-sharp fins that covered its body. Protruding from its hands were claws that were nearly a foot long. Its personality seemed different from the first being. It was certainly no less evil, but it remained rather still."


There must be some bad pasta going around the whole world because others report the same creatures.

[Thank you Troops]

I hope you're right. I hope we all get a chance to hear the actual truth.
I guess we will all just be stuck floundering until that time comes.


No, not all, I have heard the truth and believe.

[Lie Sniper]

No, not all, I have heard the truth and believe.

How do you know that what you have heard is the truth?

[Thank you Troops]

How do you know that what you have heard is the truth?

Because I've lived it for 38 years, i've tried it and tested it. It started with faith then came assurance and proof. The Bible is accurate in it's prophecies, in its historical archeology, and scientific accuracy. We can also take God's word and prove it to ourselves. God wants us to prove it, he says to prove him in the Bible.

God cannot deny himself that is why we can prove it true. If we have a contrite heart and believe on Jesus who was raised from the dead, we can conduct our own scientific experiments as proof. The toomb was empty, how do we explain that? No one has been able to. Look at us, we are human, no one like us, if evolution was true how come only man evolved like we did, other animals should be on the internet talking to us, wearing clothes and dancing in clubs.

The disciples died preaching salvation by faith in Jesus. They should have known if Jesus was a fake, and a fraud because they were with him daily. They would have known if his miracles were frauds. When Jesus died they ran, denied him and scattered in fear, they thought Jesus was dead. Then something happened to make them come back and spread the good news to all the world. I believe they saw Jesus again, touched him and ate with him. That is the truth. IMHO.

[Marleysdaddy]

The Bible is accurate in it's prophecies, in its historical archeology, and scientific accuracy.
That's debatable...Jews don't think it's accurate in its interpretation of prophecies, and bats are not birds ;)
if evolution was true how come only man evolved like we did, other animals should be on the internet talking to us, wearing clothes and dancing in clubs.(emphasis mine)
:eek: What part of evolutionary theory makes you think that?

[Thor]

The toomb was empty, how do we explain that? No one has been able to.

Gee.... how do we explain an empty tomb? Ummmmm.... maybe the tomb was empty to begin with? Perhaps somebody removed whatever was in the tomb? An empty tomb is really proof of nothing.

Look at us, we are human, no one like us, if evolution was true how come only man evolved like we did, other animals should be on the internet talking to us, wearing clothes and dancing in clubs.


Do you seriously expect other animals to have evolved as we did? So, you think bears and chickens and horses should be "wearing clothes" and communicating "on the internet"?

Wow.....

[Thank you Troops]

Gee.... how do we explain an empty tomb? Ummmmm.... maybe the tomb was empty to begin with? Perhaps somebody removed whatever was in the tomb? An empty tomb is really proof of nothing..


Actually I made a mistake, the tomb wasn't completely empty. I apologize for that.

Luke 24:12 - "However, Peter jumped up and ran to the tomb to look. Stooping, he peered in and saw the empty linen wrappings; then he went home again, wondering what had happened."

[Thor]

Actually I made a mistake, the tomb wasn't completely empty. I apologize for that.

Luke 24:12 - "However, Peter jumped up and ran to the tomb to look. Stooping, he peered in and saw the empty linen wrappings; then he went home again, wondering what had happened."

And this proves......?????

[gpd®]

You left out one horn of the Lewis Trilemma :)

True, true, or "something worse."

[gpd®]

Another first chance seems like a contradiction in terms to me.


"You never have a second chance to make a first impression."

---unknown. (debate is over Will Rogers or Oscar Wilde, but prolly sooner than that.)

[Lie Sniper]

The Bible is accurate in it's prophecies, in its historical archeology, and scientific accuracy.

Can you show me scientific proof?

We can also take God's word and prove it to ourselves. God wants us to prove it, he says to prove him in the Bible.

Remind me again, in scripture, where he says to prove him in the bible?

Can you please explain this statement?
God cannot deny himself that is why we can prove it true.


we can conduct our own scientific experiments as proof.

How do I do this? How do you do this?


The disciples died preaching salvation by faith in Jesus. They should have known if Jesus was a fake, and a fraud because they were with him daily.

Waco? Jonestown?

They would have known if his miracles were frauds. When Jesus died they ran, denied him and scattered in fear, they thought Jesus was dead.

Yes even after all He did and all they had witnessed, the people closest to Him still doubted.

Then something happened to make them come back and spread the good news to all the world. I believe they saw Jesus again, touched him and ate with him. That is the truth. IMHO.

Thank you for sharing what you believe.:angel:

[Tim]

Remind me again, in scripture, where he says to prove him in the bible?



Malachi 3:10 comes to mind:

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

[Expo Man]

Can you show me scientific proof?



Remind me again, in scripture, where he says to prove him in the bible?

Can you please explain this statement?





How do I do this? How do you do this?




Waco? Jonestown?



Yes even after all He did and all they had witnessed, the people closest to Him still doubted.



Thank you for sharing what you believe.:angel:

Please check out these scientific facts from the Bible...

http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

[RayMan]

"You never have a second chance to make a first impression."

---unknown. (debate is over Will Rogers or Oscar Wilde, but prolly sooner than that.)

I'm going with Will. Oscar would have fancied it up more IMO. Will was a plainspoken Okie.

[RayMan]

Gee.... how do we explain an empty tomb? Ummmmm.... maybe the tomb was empty to begin with? Perhaps somebody removed whatever was in the tomb? An empty tomb is really proof of nothing.



Do you seriously expect other animals to have evolved as we did? So, you think bears and chickens and horses should be "wearing clothes" and communicating "on the internet"?

Wow.....

You don't watch a lot of Cartoon Network shows I take it.

[buflineks]

You don't watch a lot of Cartoon Network shows I take it.

You were a fan of I.M. Weasal, Cow, and Chicken, weren't you?

[RayMan]

You were a fan of I.M. Weasal, Cow, and Chicken, weren't you?

Oh yeah! A couple of my kids were in the 8-11 year old range back then so I had a perfect excuse to be watching that stuff.

Family time. CatDog was another big fave.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You don't watch a lot of Cartoon Network shows I take it.

Nickelodeon's 'Barnyard' cartoon has taught me that bulls have udders. :eek: Funny that in 8 years of working on a cattle ranch, I never noticed that fact.

[RayMan]

Nickelodeon's 'Barnyard' cartoon has taught me that bulls have udders. :eek: Funny that in 8 years of working on a cattle ranch, I never noticed that fact.

I would have pegged you as a more observant kind of guy.

[Thank you Troops]

Can you show me scientific proof?



Remind me again, in scripture, where he says to prove him in the bible?

Can you please explain this statement?





How do I do this? How do you do this?




Waco? Jonestown?



Yes even after all He did and all they had witnessed, the people closest to Him still doubted.



Thank you for sharing what you believe.:angel:

If you are asking for scientific proof of spiritual matters then I know you are not ready to believe and receive. Do you have scientific proof that there was a man named George Washington and he was the first President of the US? Did you know that science doesn't take into account God or the afterlife?

[orbitaldecay]

The 23 minutes in hell is based on a logical fallacy of "reasoning." Empiricism as the means of knowing is NOT the Biblical means of knowing. In fact, the Bible refutes empiricism as pagan and absurd (e.g. Luke 16:27-31; I Corinthians 2:9, etc, etc). Thus, upon the very means of logic, before the details are even discussed, the book and claims jump from the probable, to paganism.

Respectfully,

Trivium (Jude 3).

huh?:eh:

[Lie Sniper]

Malachi 3:10 comes to mind:

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

What? This scripture is about tithing. We are to tithe and trust in God. It is a challenge from God to trust him.

Where does it say to prove him in the bible?

[Lie Sniper]

If you are asking for scientific proof of spiritual matters then I know you are not ready to believe and receive. Do you have scientific proof that there was a man named George Washington and he was the first President of the US? Did you know that science doesn't take into account God or the afterlife?

Relax. You are the one who brought up scientific accuracy. You are the one who recommended doing scientific experiments as proof.

I do believe in God.

I'm not claiming I can prove George Washington.

Oh and if science doesn't take into account God and the afterlife, then don't bring it up.;)

I really do respect your strong belief and I meant it when I thanked you for sharing your belief.

I'm trying to gain a deeper understanding of what I believe.

[Lie Sniper]

Please check out these scientific facts from the Bible...

http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

This looks interesting, thanks Expo!

[Lie Sniper]

huh?:eh:

+1

[Snow]

There must be some bad pasta going around the whole world because others report the same creatures.

Agreed - there's a bunch of crazy nuts in the world eating bad pasta.

[Snow]

The Bible is accurate in it's prophecies, in its historical archeology, and scientific accuracy.

Er - that's demonstrably untrue.

Off hand I can think of failed prophecies in Isaiah 15 and 17, and Isaiah 7 which was disproved in 2 Chronicles 28.

etc

As for the science - oh boy...

The author of Joshua 10 believed that the solar system was geocentric.

The author of Rev 6 thought that the stars were close enough to earth that they could fall to earth in an earthquake

The author of Job 38 obviously had no idea about the hydrologic cycle.

The author of Lev 11 thought that a camel had a cloven hoof and that rabbits ruminate.

The author of Matthew 13 thought that mustard seed was the smallest of all seeds.

etc
etc
etc

Fortunately most people understand that the Bible is not a history book nor a science book.

[BROEDERBOND]

Er - that's demonstrably untrue.

Off hand I can think of failed prophecies in Isaiah 15 and 17, .............

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2017%20;&version=31;
Isaiah 15 (New International Version)


Isaiah 15

A Prophecy Against Moab

1 An oracle concerning Moab:
Ar in Moab is ruined,
destroyed in a night!
Kir in Moab is ruined,
destroyed in a night!
2 Dibon goes up to its temple,
to its high places to weep;
Moab wails over Nebo and Medeba.
Every head is shaved
and every beard cut off.
3 In the streets they wear sackcloth;
on the roofs and in the public squares
they all wail,
prostrate with weeping.
4 Heshbon and Elealeh cry out,
their voices are heard all the way to Jahaz.
Therefore the armed men of Moab cry out,
and their hearts are faint.
5 My heart cries out over Moab;
her fugitives flee as far as Zoar,
as far as Eglath Shelishiyah.
They go up the way to Luhith,
weeping as they go;
on the road to Horonaim
they lament their destruction.
6 The waters of Nimrim are dried up
and the grass is withered;
the vegetation is gone
and nothing green is left.
7 So the wealth they have acquired and stored up
they carry away over the Ravine of the Poplars.
8 Their outcry echoes along the border of Moab;
their wailing reaches as far as Eglaim,
their lamentation as far as Beer Elim. 9 Dimon's [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=15&version=31#fen-NIV-17970a)] waters are full of blood,
but I will bring still more upon Dimon [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=15&version=31#fen-NIV-17970b)]—
a lion upon the fugitives of Moab
and upon those who remain in the land


Isaiah 17 (New International Version)


Isaiah 17

An Oracle Against Damascus

1 An oracle concerning Damascus:
"See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,"
declares the LORD Almighty.
4 "In that day the glory of Jacob will fade;
the fat of his body will waste away.
5 It will be as when a reaper gathers the standing grain
and harvests the grain with his arm—
as when a man gleans heads of grain
in the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet some gleanings will remain,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches,
four or five on the fruitful boughs,"
declares the LORD, the God of Israel.
7 In that day men will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2017%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-17992a)]
and the incense altars their fingers have made.
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.
12 Oh, the raging of many nations—
they rage like the raging sea!
Oh, the uproar of the peoples—
they roar like the roaring of great waters!
13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
like tumbleweed before a gale. 14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us.

EXACTLY what prophecy has failed?

[Thank you Troops]

Relax. You are the one who brought up scientific accuracy. You are the one who recommended doing scientific experiments as proof.

I do believe in God.

I'm not claiming I can prove George Washington.

Oh and if science doesn't take into account God and the afterlife, then don't bring it up.;)

I really do respect your strong belief and I meant it when I thanked you for sharing your belief.

I'm trying to gain a deeper understanding of what I believe.

Fair enough. There is a difference between mainstream science and conducting your own scientific experiments. If a mainstream scientist starts talking about God and spiritual matters then he doesn't stay manstream very long. He won't get tenured in a secular college or get to post peer reviewed documents unless they are reviewed by others of the same mindset. There are lots of scientists that believe in God but they better not give God the credit for anything in their scientific papers or they will not get very far in their career unless they go to work for creationist scientists.

Science is all about natural explanations of things these days, hence we have evolution a natural explanation of how the world began and how we got here. All mainstream science experiments are conducted on the basis that evolution is true. And the results of the experiments are interpreted on the basis that evolution is true. Well evolution is not true and that is why scientists get stumped and have to rethink their positions all the time and why some scientists come to the realization that the world is too complex for evolution to be true and evolution doesn't and cannot explain everything.

Asking for scientific proof that the Bible is true is actually asking for greater proof than evolutionists have becuase they only have a theory, not proof. You can go to answersingenesis website to get all the science evidence for creation and the Bible that you want. Plus there are other websites that show how scientific evidential discoveries actually can be interpreted for a six day creation model.

But enough about mainstream science. I will go back to the other post and answer your questions in a different light.

[smyrna]

Like I said, EVERYONE "sins" (except for very young children). So this standard is unrealistic.

Let me ask you this:

Mahatma Gandhi.

An outlaw biker who commits crimes his entire life. Before the biker dies he accepts Jesus as his savior and confesses his sins, receiving absolution from a priest.

Who do you think goes to heaven? Gandhi only? The biker only? Both of them? Neither?

Matthew 20:2-14 (King James Version)



2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

Thor, the reason I posted this passage is that it partly addresses your concern. A person who in the last hour, truly converts to Jesus, he is saved. A Christian could be a Christian for 50 years and both are in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus later in this passage says not to begrudge him for his generousity to the late Christian, the elder Christian got what he was due.

[Thank you Troops]

Can you show me scientific proof? It depends on what you consider proof. I see evidence of the Bible being true every day. Fulfilled phrophecy, we see the way the world is going, exactly like Revelation states. Archeologists unearth cities from old. We know there is a city called Jerusalem and that's in the Bible. We are here so we know we we go there somehow.

What you have to do is prove it to yourself. Prove the Bible true to yourself first and foremost. If you want to strenghten your faith you have to draw a line in the sand and say "I believe in the word of God no matter what, even when I don't understand it and even when it looks like science has proven it wrong." What you will find is it's true and nothing can prove it wrong.

But what you will also find is it takes time. I got my faith over many years of being a Christian and proving, testing and trying God and His Word. And also through trials and suffering.

Remind me again, in scripture, where he says to prove him in the bible??
Malachi 3:10 "Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test!"

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

1 Thessalonians 5:21 "but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. "

Gideon also had God prove himself in Judges 6.


Can you please explain this statement?

2 Timothy 2:13 "If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself."
God cannot and will not reject a contrite heart and a genuine faithful person. That would be denying himself, denying his own word. Because of that we can ask and have.


How do I do this? How do you do this?

I take God's word, the Bible and I say "I'm going to test God and prove to see if his word is true" Then you or I can go to any part of the Bible and test it. I've tested it many ways, through tithes and offerings, through prayer requests, through steadfastness, through disobedience. As an example, I've gotten with another of the faithful and poved this verse true. Matthew 18:19 “I also tell you this: If two of you agree here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you.


Waco? Jonestown?

At Waco you had someone wanted for gun violations, instead of giving up he murdered and committed suicide. Same for Jonestown, mass murder and suicide. That does not compare to being killed for preaching Jesus saves by people that would have know better. People will die for their faith if they believe it true but less likely if they know their faith is not true.


Yes even after all He did and all they had witnessed, the people closest to Him still doubted.

We all have out doubts at times, even me. Like I said above it takes time to strenghten our faith. They gained the faith to die for Jesus somehow. Everyone doesn't have the same measure of faith.


Thank you for sharing what you believe.:angel:
That's all we have is our beliefs, biases and faith. ;)

[Thank you Troops]

Er - that's demonstrably untrue.

Off hand I can think of failed prophecies in Isaiah 15 and 17, and Isaiah 7 which was disproved in 2 Chronicles 28.

etc

As for the science - oh boy...

The author of Joshua 10 believed that the solar system was geocentric.

The author of Rev 6 thought that the stars were close enough to earth that they could fall to earth in an earthquake

The author of Job 38 obviously had no idea about the hydrologic cycle.

The author of Lev 11 thought that a camel had a cloven hoof and that rabbits ruminate.

The author of Matthew 13 thought that mustard seed was the smallest of all seeds.

etc
etc
etc

Fortunately most people understand that the Bible is not a history book nor a science book.

I see your biased also, against the Bible, well I'm biased for it.

[smyrna]

Just a thought. If you were God, and you have told the world that you have a choice of just two things, then this may be the world as we know it;

1. You are a sinner and will never be righteous enough to spend eternity with him (even Ghandi and he was a GREAT man) and because of this FACT, he sent his son Jesus into the world to die on the cross. Who so ever would truly believe in his son, your sins would be forgiven and you will spend eternity with him.

2. You reject this gift and take your chances on your own righteousness, which he tells you up front will NEVER be in the purity of righteousness that is required to spend eternity with him, and go before the judge and plead your case when that time comes.

To make the matter truly a personal choice, while creating the sun, earth, man, the creatures of the earth, etc...God also created fossils of dinosaurs, the grand canyon, sand in high places and every other thing that could possibly create in man's mind other possibilities of belief than what is stated in the Bible.

This now establishes the element for faith. If it were easy, would it then be faith?
Luke 5:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=5&verse=20&version=49&context=verse)
Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

If it seems that simple, it is because it is.

If it seems so complicated, it is because it requires faith.

[Thank you Troops]

Just a thought. If you were God, and you have told the world that you have a choice of just two things, then this may be the world as we know it;

1. You are a sinner and will never be righteous enough to spend eternity with him (even Ghandi and he was a GREAT man) and because of this FACT, he sent his son Jesus into the world to die on the cross. Who so ever would truly believe in his son, your sins would be forgiven and you will spend eternity with him.

2. You reject this gift and take your chances on your own righteousness, which he tells you up front will NEVER be in the purity of righteousness that is required to spend eternity with him, and go before the judge and plead your case when that time comes.

To make the matter truly a personal choice, while creating the sun, earth, man, the creatures of the earth, etc...God also created fossils of dinosaurs, the grand canyon, sand in high places and every other thing that could create in man's logical mind other possibilities of belief than what is stated in the Bible.

This now creates the element for faith. If it were easy, would it then be faith?
Luke 5:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=5&verse=20&version=49&context=verse)
Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

If it seems that simple, it is because it is.

If it seems so complicated, it is because it requires faith.


Good post and I like your faith. However God does not lie and is the God of truth. He doesn't have to create false things in order to make one need faith to believe. We have found dinosaurs DNA, they were real and on the earth with man. The Grand Canyon, sand on mountains and fish fossils in high places can be explained by the global flood. It still takes faith to believe in God that we cannot see. Mainstream science is poisioning the waters against God, it teaches a natural explanation for everything. That is why people try to believe in evolution and the Bible at the same time. They are incompatible.

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, so he does not lie."

2 Samuel 7:28 "For you are God, O Sovereign Lord. Your words are truth"

Hebrews 6:18 "it is impossible for God to lie"

Romans 3:3 "Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true"

[Koushi Shinigami]

All mainstream science experiments are conducted on the basis that evolution is true. And the results of the experiments are interpreted on the basis that evolution is true.


:eh: How did science use the theory of evolution to invent the computer you wrote that on?

[James Juno]

:eh: How did science use the theory of evolution to invent the computer you wrote that on?

A great source of amusement in this forum is watching non-scientists pretend they know science.

[smyrna]

Good post and I like your faith. However God does not lie and is the God of truth. He doesn't have to create false things in order to make one need faith to believe. We have found dinosaurs DNA, they were real and on the earth with man. The Grand Canyon, sand on mountains and fish fossils in high places can be explained by the global flood. It still takes faith to believe in God that we cannot see. Mainstream science is poisioning the waters against God, it teaches a natural explanation for everything. That is why people try to believe in evolution and the Bible at the same time. They are incompatible.

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, so he does not lie."

2 Samuel 7:28 "For you are God, O Sovereign Lord. Your words are truth"

Hebrews 6:18 "it is impossible for God to lie"

Romans 3:3 "Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true"

You have DEFINITELY put words in someones mouth but it isn't mine...at NO time have I, did I or would I call the Lord a liar. Your post has come from your mind and stated here for the world to see what YOU are thinking. The word LIAR has entirely come from you...now...

That being said, elaborate for me about the dinosaurs being on earth with man. When did that occur? Before Noah or after? Please, I really would like this explained because it is a thought that I have never heard before.

[clabro1960]

smyrna the dinosaurs lived with man on earth up till the flood of noahs time. that is what killed all the animals on earth that do not live in water. it is a know fact and science proves that the dinosaurs died quickly alas the meteor theory that they died in seconds to a few days.what does the word dinosaur mean. look it up it means giant lizzard. will prior to noahs time all things lived hundreds of years to maybe a 1000 yrs. so how big would a kamono dragon be if it live to be a 1000 yrs old see a lizzard never stops growing bigger until the day it dies. if the only live to be 50-100 yrs now and get to be 50-80 pounds or so imagine how big they would be at 100 times there present size. this is only one example.

[Koushi Shinigami]

smyrna the dinosaurs lived with man on earth up till the flood of noahs time. that is what killed all the animals on earth that do not live in water. it is a know fact and science proves that the dinosaurs died quickly alas the meteor theory that they died in seconds to a few days.what does the word dinosaur mean. look it up it means giant lizzard. will prior to noahs time all things lived hundreds of years to maybe a 1000 yrs. so how big would a kamono dragon be if it live to be a 1000 yrs old see a lizzard never stops growing bigger until the day it dies. if the only live to be 50-100 yrs now and get to be 50-80 pounds or so imagine how big they would be at 100 times there present size. this is only one example.

So Adam, Eve, Noah, etc were around 1500 pounds when they died?

[lwdc]

So Adam, Eve, Noah, etc were around 1500 pounds when they died?They Might Be Giants.

[smyrna]

smyrna the dinosaurs lived with man on earth up till the flood of noahs time. that is what killed all the animals on earth that do not live in water. it is a know fact and science proves that the dinosaurs died quickly alas the meteor theory that they died in seconds to a few days.what does the word dinosaur mean. look it up it means giant lizzard. will prior to noahs time all things lived hundreds of years to maybe a 1000 yrs. so how big would a kamono dragon be if it live to be a 1000 yrs old see a lizzard never stops growing bigger until the day it dies. if the only live to be 50-100 yrs now and get to be 50-80 pounds or so imagine how big they would be at 100 times there present size. this is only one example.

Welcome to the planet earth...take me to your leader.

[biggles53]

To make the matter truly a personal choice, while creating the sun, earth, man, the creatures of the earth, etc...God also created fossils of dinosaurs, the grand canyon, sand in high places and every other thing that could create in man's logical mind other possibilities of belief than what is stated in the Bible.





So, your god is a deceiver.......?

[Gem]

Imagine you have never been exposed to religion until you become an adult. Then you discover a number of religions that tell you if you follow them you will go to heaven! But if you don't follow them you end up in hell! How do you know which of them is true? If you follow the wrong religion you end up in hell! Not for anything you've done, mind you. Just for the simple reason that you didn't believe the "right" things.

Seems a rather harsh penalty for not making the "right guess" if you ask me.

Thats what the Holy Spirt is for, it talks to you and tells you when you do something wrong, by your conscience, thats the reason God gave you a conscience, so He could use it to talk to you with.

For example- you go in a store, you see something you want, you still it, that little small voice inside your head will say. " You should not take this unless you pay for it " Now, I know a lot of you have had something like that to happen to you at least once in your life time.

If I were you guys I would not make jokes or fun about this post, you just may find it to be true when the time comes.

[Gem]

Not the point. Everyone does things they shouldn't. I'm trying to find out if you believe people are doomed to "hell" for the simple "transgression" of not being Christian.

Yep , hell is for sinners .:angel:

[smyrna]

So, your god is a deceiver.......?

Man is the deceiver biggles53. The Lord gave his account very plainly.
If you see mention of fossils or dinosaurs in the Bible confirming another account of creation, please show it to me. You are listening to man's account as to what fossils represent, not the Lord's. The thought as to why there are fossils is strictly my own. Just something to think about. Your question though is very dark and may be indicative of an inner problem that may require additional inner personal reflection.

[Gem]

But the premise of the Fire and Brimstone teaching is to scare people of hell, so they will believe in Jesus Christ.

Why not just teach about Christ and His teachings ?

Hell is part of the teachings of Jesus.

[Koushi Shinigami]

To make the matter truly a personal choice, while creating the sun, earth, man, the creatures of the earth, etc...God also created fossils of dinosaurs, the grand canyon, sand in high places and every other thing that could create in man's logical mind other possibilities of belief than what is stated in the Bible.






Or just maybe, God did it the way the observable evidence and fossile record suggests he did it.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Hell is part of the teachings of Jesus.

Meh.

[Gem]

If this God you speak of loves me, why did he create me so that I sin? So he can fix it later?

It kind of reminds me of the times my manager at work creates problems within the work place, reports them to upper management, and then fixes said problems, then reports again to upper management as the hero. Interesting, considering he caused the problems in the first place!

He did not cause the problems, god is not making you sin, you doing that on your on.

He gave us a free will to choose between good and evil, its your problem if you choose to do evil.

[smyrna]

Yep , hell is for sinners .:angel:


I am a sinner, you are a sinner. We are all sinners. Let those that have accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour have their sins be cleansed and let the Lord decide who goes to hell.

[smyrna]

Or just maybe, God did it the way the observable evidence and fossile record suggests he did it.


Wouldn't that be against the teachings of the Bible?

[Gem]

Not that anyone recognizes this as scripture, but it may apply:

2 Nephi 29:11
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

Like I said before, I believe all people that don't hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ during their life, will have a chance to to accept Christ in the next life.

You know, Jesus did go down to hell to preach to the lost. that is scripture.

[James Juno]

Man is the deceiver biggles53. The Lord gave his account very plainly.
If you see mention of fossils or dinosaurs in the Bible confirming another account of creation, please show it to me. You are listening to man's account as to what fossils represent, not the Lord's. The thought as to why there are fossils is strictly my own. Just something to think about. Your question though is very dark and may be indicative of an inner problem that may require additional inner personal reflection.

Amazing.

[Gem]

If you heard the Gospel in this life but rejected it, and then you discovered that there was an afterlife and that you were wrong you would know that you were in deep. That person isn't going to be able to exercise faith.

But if you never heard of Christ, then arrive in the afterlife completely ignorant, you would still have no knowledge of Him, nor any understanding of why you were there - unitl you were taught by someone, and then you could still exercise faith that when brought before the judgment bar, He would save you too.

We are not talking about second chances here. We are talking about everyone getting a first chance.

I believe every person in this world no about God, they all have differant names for him, but they know about him.

So where is their excuess from there go.

[Gem]

You have DEFINITELY put words in someones mouth but it isn't mine...at NO time have I, did I or would I call the Lord a liar. Your post has come from your mind and stated here for the world to see what YOU are thinking. The word LIAR has entirely come from you...now...

That being said, elaborate for me about the dinosaurs being on earth with man. When did that occur? Before Noah or after? Please, I really would like this explained because it is a thought that I have never heard before.

There were dinosaurs was on the earth in Jobs day in the bible.

Read Job chapter 41. this dragon spits fire .

[free2B]

Or just maybe, God did it the way the observable evidence and fossile record suggests he did it.

or shi shi as presented in the Biblical record, the great behemoths of the past age of the giant reptiles, and amphibians, and the giant and terrible ocean born beasts, and sharks and fishes, as well as the gigantic pterdactyls and airborne terrors, were all destroyed in the great Flood of Noah, as a result of the wrath of God against the evil perpetrated upon the earth by the fallen angels?

[orbitaldecay]

Hell is part of the teachings of Jesus.

I'm not going to disagree with you...

My only problems with the fire and brimstone technique of saving people are 1) The Message of Jesus Christ is not fear; it's hope. 2) Belief in Satan and Hell does not save; belief in Jesus Christ does.

[smyrna]

There were dinosaurs was on the earth in Jobs day in the bible.

Read Job chapter 41. this dragon spits fire .

Is it a Sea Serpent? A Fire Breathing Dragon? A Dinosaur? Is it Satan?



The word "Leviathan" is used in the bible five times. In Job 41:1; Psalm. 74:14; 104:26; and twice in Isa. 27:1. There are other verses which reference Leviathan without naming it. Let us first look at Chapter 41 of Job where a description of the "Leviathan" is given to Job by God. Let us see what we can find out about him. Some have called him a crocodile, but as we will see from the following description that those who call him a crocodile have never read Job chapter 41. From the following verses of Job chapter 41 we find that:

In Verse:

1 You can't catch him with a fish hook or tie him up.

3 He will not beg you for mercy.

4 He will never serve you or do as you command.

5 You can't put him on a leash to make a pet out of him for your children.

6 You can never make a meal out of him.

7 You can't stick a harpoon into him.

8 If you tangle with him once and live through it you will never go near him again.

9 Even the sight of him is enough to make you try to hide.

10 He is so terrible that no one would dare attract his attention.

12 He is Very powerful, and well proportioned.

13 You can't skin him, and he has two heads.

14 You can't open or close his mouth, even the sight of his teeth will put terror into you.

15 - 17 He has scales that are beautiful and fitted so close together that air can't get between them, much less anything else. You can't separate his scales by any means.

18 When he sneezes a light shines out. His eyes glow like the morning sun.

19 When he opens his mouth fire comes out.

20 Smoke pours out of the nostrils of his nose like steam rising out of a boiling pot.

21 His breath alone is so hot that it will start fires and flames shoot out of it's mouth.

22 His neck is very strong and Nothing is painful or hard for him.

23 His flesh, or muscles, are so firm that they are hard to the touch and you can't push even a dent in them.

24 His heart is as hard as a lower mill stone that makes flour.

25 The very sight of him strikes fear into the hearts of the most mighty and brave men. They call on God to help them because they believe that they will be killed.

26 He can't be harmed (cut) by swords, spears (light for throwing), arrows, or lances (a heavy spear for thrusting, not throwing).

27 Hitting him with iron or brass is like hitting him with grass or rotten wood.

28 He laughs at arrows and stones from a slingshot.

29 He scorns light spears. You can't threaten him.

30 His bottom side is rough and sharp like broken pottery.

31 He stirs up the sea to make it look like its boiling.

32 As he travels through the sea he leaves a churned up trail in the water that makes it look like frost.

33 There is absolutely nothing on this earth like him. He is absolutely fearless since nothing on the earth can harm him.

34 He is the king and ruler over everything on the earth.

_________________________________



Well there it is. What kind of a creature or animal do you think it is from that description?

It sure doesn't sound like the crocodile that we have today. The crocodile we have today we make shoes, suitcases and belts out of, and men do eat him. There are no scales on a crocodile.

What is being described here is a two headed creature that breathes out fire. A creature that knows that it is the most beautiful ever created. A creature that is indestructible from everything and everyone except God. A creature who, the very sight of, causes terror in the hearts and minds of men.

It was Known to Job

A one of a kind creature that was alive and known to Job, who was a real person (see Ezekiel. 14:14, 20; James 5:10-11) and who is believed to have lived around the time of Abraham.(Abraham was born around 2166 BC). We know that Job knew this creature from the way that God started the description of Leviathan. We can see in the first couple of verses an assumption of Job knowing the creature by the hearing it's name. Only with God, its not an assumption, it is knowledge.

It was Known to Asaph

Asaph wrote psalm 74 which speaks of the heads of leviathan in verse 14. This confirms the two heads of leviathan. Asaph lived in the time of David and Solomon. This puts the time of writing between 1040 - 940 BC.

It was Known to an unknown author

Psalm 104, written by an unknown writer, in verses 25 - 26, shows leviathan to be a sea creature.

It was Known to Isaiah

Isaiah knew of leviathan and referred to him in Isaiah 27:1 where reference is made to God punishing leviathan by killing him. And when will this happen? Verse 26:21 and 27:1 says it will happen on the day when the Lord comes out to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. That Day of the Lord is yet in the future. That means that Leviathan is alive and well today.

Isaiah also identifies him in Isaiah 27:1 as a "piercing serpent", a "crooked serpent" and a "dragon".

Compare Isaiah 27:1 with Revelation 20:2 where God's angel binds the "dragon" and the "old serpent" who is also identified as the "Devil" and "Satan" and with Revelation 20:10 - 11 where Satan is destroyed on the day of the Great White throne judgment where the sinners will be judged.

Isaiah also refers to a "fiery flying serpent" in Isaiah 30:6 which seems to be referring to Satan.



In Job 41:15 a statement: His scales are his pride -- perhaps this can be explained with the following passages from Ezekiel. 28:12 - 19, where a description of Satan is given. Ezekiel 28:13 describes Satan's covering, see how many other verses here fits in with the description of Leviathan as given in Job 41.

Ezekiel 28

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.




Ezekiel shows that Satan is associated with fire.



Ezekiel 28

14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

This compares with Job 41:18 - 21.



Ezekiel shows that Satan will be a terror to all mankind.



Ezekiel 28

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou any more.

This fits with the description given in Job. 41:25


[B]Ezekiel shows that Satan is violent and will one day be destroyed.



Ezekiel 28

15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

This fits Job 41:10, 25; Isaiah 27:1; and Revelation 20:10 - 11

_____________________________________



The answer then appears to be that Leviathan is a Sea Serpent, a Fire Breathing Dragon, and also Satan.

Throughout the bible, there are 4 names used for Satan. The names and meanings are:

1. Dragon = cruelty
2. Old Serpent = cunning treachery
3. Devil = deceiver
4. Satan = adversary

May God help you to understand His word.
Amen.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Wouldn't that be against the teachings of the Bible?

What are the teachings of the bible?

[Koushi Shinigami]

and the giant and terrible ocean born beasts, and sharks and fishes, as well as the gigantic pterdactyls and airborne terrors, were all destroyed in the great Flood of Noah,


Then God missed a few. Let's see, there's the blue whale, the great white shark, and I know there are more than a couple of species of fish around.

[Semi-Sweet]

Hell is part of the teachings of Jesus.

"The wages of sin is death," it will be seen as at least understandable if not just. Even men sometimes execute their fellows for crimes committed. But when they hang them or electrocute them they do not keep on hanging them or electrocuting them in perpetuity. They are hanged or electrocuted "forever" in that its result is final and cannot be repealed. Life is the opposite of Death. Death is separation from God. To be with God is to have Life.

[Lie Sniper]

He did not cause the problems, god is not making you sin, you doing that on your on.

He gave us a free will to choose between good and evil, its your problem if you choose to do evil.

I'll try again. Why do you think God created us with rebellion in our hearts?

Why did God place the tree of knowledge in the garden?
Was it to test his creation?
Did his creation pass or fail the test?

Did God know his creation would disobey him?
Why then, would he create a creation that would fail him?
Why would he later need to send his son to atone for the failings of his creation, that failed to live up to the standards that he set?
Was it to fix his mistake?
Why would God depend on the decision making abilities of his flawed creation, allowing this creation to determine its own fate, by simply believing that the savior paid the price? Or for some, believe and perform good works?

[Lie Sniper]

So I ask again. Why would a perfect God, who loves me, create me with the ability to sin?

[Thank you Troops]

Hell is part of the teachings of Jesus.


+1

Mark 9:
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands. 45 If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one foot than to be thrown into hell with two feet. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.'

[Marleysdaddy]

So I ask again. Why would a perfect God, who loves me, create me with the ability to sin?

To give you an un-winnable challenge? :razz:

[Thank you Troops]

So I ask again. Why would a perfect God, who loves me, create me with the ability to sin?

You also have the ability to obey. God created us with free will and created us for himself. How can we truly understand that? From the Bible we know that this world was made by Him and for Him. It's all about Him.

What feels better to us, when our kids obey willingly or we have to force them, when someone loves us willingly or we try to force them.

[Lie Sniper]

You also have the ability to obey.

As a Christian, we cant possibly believe that we have the ability to obey in any meaningful way, because if we can atone for our sins ourselves, we no longer need the atonement of Christ.

God created us with free will and created us for himself. How can we truly understand that? From the Bible we know that this world was made by Him and for Him. It's all about Him.

So we are living on Gods personal ant hill. Some of us are burned with a magnifing glass, some get sprayed with the water hose and some get returned to the entrance to the ant hill by God's hand personally, if we believe.

What feels better to us, when our kids obey willingly or we have to force them, when someone loves us willingly or we try to force them.

What if we had the ability to create our kids so they would want to obey willingly? Would you create your kids so that some will fail and some will succeed?

[Thor]

You don't watch a lot of Cartoon Network shows I take it.

I love Yogi Bear, Bugs Bunny and Huckleberry Hound. Secret Squirrel and Peter Potamus were also a couple of my faves.:D

[Thor]

If you are asking for scientific proof of spiritual matters then I know you are not ready to believe and receive. Do you have scientific proof that there was a man named George Washington and he was the first President of the US?

We have plenty of proof that George Washington existed. We could even exhume his remains. Not sure what you're trying to demonstrate here.

[RayMan]

i love yogi bear, bugs bunny and huckleberry hound. Secret squirrel and peter potamus were also a couple of my faves.:d


:)

[Thank you Troops]

As a Christian, we cant possibly believe that we have the ability to obey in any meaningful way, because if we can atone for our sins ourselves, we no longer need the atonement of Christ.




We don't atone for our own sins by obeying. Obeying doesn't relieve us the penalty of our sins. We will have to leave the decision on if our obedience is meaningful up to God. When our kids try to obey us even on one thing we are pleased even though we know they are not perfect.

[Thor]

Well evolution is not true and that is why scientists get stumped and have to rethink their positions all the time and why some scientists come to the realization that the world is too complex for evolution to be true and evolution doesn't and cannot explain everything.


Evolution is not true? You know this for a fact? Then please falsify the theory. If you can, you will be a giant in the scientific community!

Asking for scientific proof that the Bible is true is actually asking for greater proof than evolutionists have becuase they only have a theory, not proof

This is not true. Science can easily determine if there was a flood 4,000 years ago that covered the entire planet. No such evidence exists to support this story.

Also, you seem to lack an understanding of what "theory" means in scientific circles.

You can go to answersingenesis website to get all the science evidence for creation and the Bible that you want.

Looking for "science" on the answersingenesis website is like looking for turkeys on a chicken farm. You might find something that sort of resembles what you want, but it's not the real thing.

[Thor]

Thats what the Holy Spirt is for, it talks to you and tells you when you do something wrong, by your conscience, thats the reason God gave you a conscience, so He could use it to talk to you with.


This makes no sense. Cultures all over the world teach that it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal or harm another person. If what you say is true, the only people with a conscience would be Christians.

[Lie Sniper]

We don't atone for our own sins by obeying. Obeying doesn't relieve us the penalty of our sins. We will have to leave the decision on if our obedience is meaningful up to God. When our kids try to obey us even on one thing we are pleased even though we know they are not perfect.

OK, so if we could obey, we would not be under judgement as failures, there would be no penalty and we would not need Jesus.

To be Christian, is believe in the atonement of Christ, and we would need to see ourselves as sinners and failures in the eyes of God. This means we can never obey enough to justify ourselves before God.
That's why we need Christ.

So why would a God who loves us, wants us to spend eternity with him in his glory, not just make us perfect like Christ?
Seems like the long way around to get from point A, to point B.

[Koushi Shinigami]

This makes no sense. Cultures all over the world teach that it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal or harm another person. If what you say is true, the only people with a conscience would be Christians.

Orrrrrr.... :think: God and the Holy Spirit talk to people who are not Christian. :shrug:

[Koushi Shinigami]

OK, so if we could obey, we would not be under judgement as failures, there would be no penalty and we would not need Jesus.

To be Christian, is believe in the atonement of Christ, and we would need to see ourselves as sinners and failures in the eyes of God. This means we can never obey enough to justify ourselves before God.
That's why we need Christ.

So why would a God who loves us, wants us to spend eternity with him in his glory, not just make us perfect like Christ?
Seems like the long way around to get from point A, to point B.

He enjoys a challenge.
He got bored of angels adoring him.
He likes games.
He has an incredible sense of humor.

Pick one.

[Thor]

There were dinosaurs was on the earth in Jobs day in the bible.

Read Job chapter 41. this dragon spits fire .

If this is true, please explain why the human bones of are not found in the same rock layers as dinosaur bones.

[Thank you Troops]

OK, so if we could obey, we would not be under judgement as failures, there would be no penalty and we would not need Jesus.

To be Christian, is believe in the atonement of Christ, and we would need to see ourselves as sinners and failures in the eyes of God. This means we can never obey enough to justify ourselves before God.
That's why we need Christ.

So why would a God who loves us, wants us to spend eternity with him in his glory, not just make us perfect like Christ?
Seems like the long way around to get from point A, to point B.


I think I understand what you are saying, sometimes I cry out "why Lord do I have to go through this miserable sinful existence first before I get to Heaven". I guess that's for him to know and for us to find out. 70 years isn't much to suffer compared to eternity. I've learned to live with it.

Paul said it good, "to live is christ, to die is gain"

[Lie Sniper]

If this is true, please explain why the human bones of are not found in the same rock layers as dinosaur bones.

Human bones are lighter so they wouldn't sink to the bottom as fast.:D

When you're not a scientist, its easier to come up with ideas and believe them.

Try it, it's fun!:razz:

[Lie Sniper]

He enjoys a challenge.
He got bored of angels adoring him.
He likes games.
He has an incredible sense of humor.

Pick one.

Can I pick all of the above?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I think I understand what you are saying, sometimes I cry out "why Lord do I have to go through this miserable sinful existence first before I get to Heaven". I guess that's for him to know and for us to find out. 70 years isn't much to suffer compared to eternity. I've learned to live with it.

Paul said it good, "to live is christ, to die is gain"

So a shorter lifespan compared to early biblical characters is then a blessing.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Can I pick all of the above?

Ja!

[Koushi Shinigami]

Human bones are lighter so they wouldn't sink to the bottom as fast.:D

When you're not a scientist, its easier to come up with ideas and believe them.

Try it, it's fun!:razz:

Dinosaur digestive juices are much more aggressive than human. Therefore the humans that were eaten by dinosaurs left no evidence behind.

[Lie Sniper]

Dinosaur digestive juices are much more aggressive than human. Therefore the humans that were eaten by dinosaurs left no evidence behind.

I like the kid with an ant hill theory. Dinosaurs he created first, played with them a few million years, got bored and buried them.
Then he created us.
I wonder what/who he will create when he gets bored with us?:silenced:

[Koushi Shinigami]

I like the kid with an ant hill theory. Dinosaurs he created first, played with them a few million years, got bored and buried them.
Then he created us.
I wonder what/who he will create when he gets bored with us?:silenced:

Shiny, silver, space-birds.

[Lie Sniper]

Shiny, silver, space-birds.

There have already been reported sightings of those.
Don't you know they are storing one in Area 51?:rolleyes: