Inside radical islam.

[The Bos'un]

On Friday, Dennis Prager had an interesting show; For a one hour segment, he interviewed Daveed Gartenstine-Ross, a former Islamist who is now is now a full-time counterterrorism consultant.

Daveed also talked briefly about his book, My Year Inside Radical Islam: A Memoir.

In a nutshell, according to Human Events book service and Dennis Prager's interview with Daveed: Daveed Gartenstein-Ross was a spiritual seeker. Raised by Jewish-born hippie-era parents in liberal Ashland, Oregon, he longed to find a religion that would ground his social consciousness in spiritual ideals. When at college in the late nineties, he met a charismatic Muslim student who seemed to have what he was looking for. Gartenstein-Ross converted to Islam, and began eagerly to learn the details of Islamic belief and practice. He didn't have any inkling of what was to come, as at that point he was convinced that "the true Islam was moderate." But at the moment of his conversion he began a descent into the bizarre world of the Islamic jihadist subculture in America - a descent he recounts in chilling detail in My Year Inside Radical Islam.

After college, Gartenstein-Ross went to work for the al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, a charity which - it soon became to clear to him - was dedicated to furthering the aims of the global jihad by funding terrorists abroad while spreading the jihad ideology at home. To his growing disquiet, he quickly began to chafe against the many rules and restrictions that Islamic law imposes upon Muslims - including the forbidding of music and the requirement that men wear beards - and to question the Islamic restrictions on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. But at the same time, he began to discover that the version of Islam taught by jihadist extremists tallied with what he was reading in the Qur'an and Islamic tradition.

Instead of putting his mind at ease about the path he had taken, this realization made him all the more uneasy - and led him to resume his spiritual search with renewed vigor. He left al-Haramain and, ultimately, Islam itself. His theological and historical investigations led him to the realization that Christianity was in fact the true faith, and he became a Christian around the time his former employer was charged by the U.S. government as being a source of funds for terrorist organizations. Gartenstein-Ross, by this time a lawyer at a prominent firm, volunteered to be questioned by the FBI. They already knew who he was.

My Year Inside Radical Islam is a harrowing story of how easily good intentions can be distorted and a decent man can be led away from its principles. It is also an instructive guide to the seductive attractiveness of the jihad movement, and to how quickly and easily a well-intentioned soul can find himself involved in groups that are dedicated to the destruction of the United States and Western civilization.


Among the revelations of Daveed Gartenstein-Ross' amazing journey:

The fundamental difference between how religion is viewed in the West and how it is seen in the Islamic world
How Gartenstein-Ross's Muslim colleagues at al-Haramain disguised their financial support for terror groups so as to avoid detection by law enforcement authorities
The significance of the fact that there is no separation between mosque and state in Islam
How the mainstream media rushed to defend al-Haramain and Gartenstein-Ross's former colleagues from terror charges, printing what Gartenstein-Ross knew to be ridiculous distortions and half-truths - including calling al-Haramain America's "natural partner in the war on terror"
The ease with which some of Gartenstein-Ross's Muslim friends trafficked in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories
How the Muslims around Gartenstein-Ross defended the Taliban and wrote off the Afghan regime's murderous brutality as "Western media hype"
The key role that social pressure plays in enforcing Islamic morality and custom
The enlightening reason why women from the Muslim world make better wives than American Muslim women - according to one of Gartenstein-Ross's Muslim friends
The disagreements within Gartenstein-Ross's Muslim circle as to how orthodox Sunni Muslims should regard members of Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam
Does jihad properly refer only to defensive warfare against an unjust regime? How Gartenstein-Ross came to the conclusion that this was not the Koran's view
Why seemingly trivial matters such as the length of Gartenstein-Ross's beard became matters of contention among his Muslim peers
The chief obstacle that most Americans encounter when they try to understand the jihadist mindset
The Saudi Chief Justice who convinced Gartenstein-Ross while he was a Muslim that Muslims have a duty to fight unbelievers, not just an option to do so
Discoveries that helped propel Gartenstein-Ross out of Islam: yes, Islam does sanction polygamy (and yes, Muslims do practice it in the United States), mandate the death penalty for apostasy, and more
How Gartenstein-Ross determined that Christianity was true, and the Muslim claims about it hollow
How Gartenstein-Ross's Muslim friends reacted to 9/11
"You should not go to law school. If you go to law school, you will have to say that the Constitution is good" - and other advice Gartenstein-Ross received from Muslim mentors in the U.S.
How Americans must awaken to the seductive pull of the ideology that is today our nation's deadliest foe
We have gone back and forth about Islam, Muhammad, and Radicalized Islam. Some have a rather jaded view of the subject of radicalized Islam, some are naive, some are extremly for apology and appeasement or extermly against Muhammadanism.

With the latest incident that happend in Mumbai, and the revelations from Fox News, Report: Mumbai Terror Attack Aimed to Kill 5,000 People (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459284,00.html), on the motivations of the surviving terrorist, Azam Amir Kasab, and the group responsible, we have a lot more to learn. We need to fully understand the process of Islamism and how radicalization takes place of some who enter with peaceful intentions. The free world needs to fully understand the process of Islamism and how radicalization takes place with some who originally enter with peaceful intentions such as John Phillip Walker Lindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh) and Adam Gahdan (http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/09/the_azzam_threat_a_prelude_to.php).

Remember, I am not painting all Muhammedans with the same brush. Not all are radcial, I just have to learn how to understand the process of radicalization. I hope you are up for it too.

We need to think outside the box, folks. Those who want to wish it away, the Elephant in the room will remain there.

[enchantedking]

On Friday, Dennis Prager had an interesting show; For a one hour segment, he interviewed Daveed Gartenstine-Ross, a former Islamist who is now is now a full-time counterterrorism consultant.

Daveed also talked briefly about his book, My Year Inside Radical Islam: A Memoir.

In a nutshell, according to Human Events book service and Dennis Prager's interview with Daveed: We have gone back and forth about Islam, Muhammad, and Radicalized Islam. Some have a rather jaded view of the subject of radicalized Islam, some are naive, some are extremly for apology and appeasement or extermly against Muhammadanism.

With the latest incident that happend in Mumbai, and the revelations from Fox News, Report: Mumbai Terror Attack Aimed to Kill 5,000 People (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459284,00.html), on the motivations of the surviving terrorist, Azam Amir Kasab, and the group responsible, we have a lot more to learn. We need to fully understand the process of Islamism and how radicalization takes place of some who enter with peaceful intentions. The free world needs to fully understand the process of Islamism and how radicalization takes place with some who originally enter with peaceful intentions such as John Phillip Walker Lindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh) and Adam Gahdan (http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/09/the_azzam_threat_a_prelude_to.php).

Remember, I am not painting all Muhammedans with the same brush. Not all are radcial, I just have to learn how to understand the process of radicalization. I hope you are up for it too.

We need to think outside the box, folks. Those who want to wish it away, the Elephant in the room will remain there.
SOAK THEM ALL IN PIG LARD:idea:
kinda like the old shell back days when inniciating a waugs those are the good ol days:)):))
today don't even come close on what take place on those old navy traditions.:confused:
political correctness has alot to do with it:rolleyes:

[meggers49]

There are so many layers to this....

I fail to understand how people can be so laid back about it. Are we that amnesic that we have forgotten something that, seven years ago devastated us? How difficult do you think it would be for a group like those in Mumbai to hit here? They've been planning for a year. And they did a good job doing what they planned.

9/11 was supposed to be many more cities and many more dead. It was good fortune that kept it from being that way. Mumbai was supposed to be several thousand. Thank God it wasn't.

Do you honestly think it can't happen here again?

WAKE UP!

[Mohawk5]

What is going to happen when the real all out war against the world starts?

As soon as they get their caliphate to launch the attacks from what will we do?

When all of the true moslems decide to fight inside our borders what will we do?

[enchantedking]

There are so many layers to this....

I fail to understand how people can be so laid back about it. Are we that amnesic that we have forgotten something that, seven years ago devastated us? How difficult do you think it would be for a group like those in Mumbai to hit here? They've been planning for a year. And they did a good job doing what they planned.

9/11 was supposed to be many more cities and many more dead. It was good fortune that kept it from being that way. Mumbai was supposed to be several thousand. Thank God it wasn't.

Do you honestly think it can't happen here again?

WAKE UP!
to give you insights on what we are facing,
read BOJINKA PLOT
THIS IS THE BEGINING AND THE SKEMAthics and diagram they are following

[The Bos'un]

No worthwhile discussions about radical islam here. Guess I'll have to move along. I really wanted this thread go to a deeper discussion than the usual rabble rousing. I have rabble roused myself many times and have been called a bunch of names. But I really wanted a deep discussion on radical islam; the methodology and process that transpires when some who enter into an alleged religion of peace and become radicalized. We have to understand the process.

Guys, I am not trying to be politically correct, just wanting to explore the process.

My initial response would have been rap the dead terrorist in pig skin, soak em in pig blood and let wild dogs eat em. But, that will not solve the problem. Revenge is not as sweet as one would suspect. The pain of the victims families will hurt just as much after revenge is administered.

I want to discuss the process, not the content. I hope you all realize where I am coming from.

[enchantedking]

No worthwhile discussions about radical islam here. Guess I'll have to move along. I really wanted this thread go to a deeper discussion than the usual rabble rousing. I have rabble roused myself many times and have been called a bunch of names. But I really wanted a deep discussion on radical islam; the methodology and process that transpires when some who enter into an alleged religion of peace and become radicalized. We have to understand the process.

Guys, I am not trying to be politically correct, just wanting to explore the process.

My initial response would have been rap the dead terrorist in pig skin, soak em in pig blood and let wild dogs eat em. But, that will not solve the problem. Revenge is not as sweet as one would suspect. The pain of the victims families will hurt just as much after revenge is administered.

I want to discuss the process, not the content. I hope you all realize where I am coming from.
hey chief check out BLACK JACK PERSING AND THE MORO REBELION that might give more insight to this topic
give mike a few minutes and let me find a good link regarding this topic
:idea::idea::idea::idea:

[enchantedking]

here is a good one for starters

PACIFYING THE MOROS 1899-1913
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/byler.pdf
:idea::idea::idea:

[enchantedking]

here is a good one for starters

PACIFYING THE MOROS 1899-1913
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/byler.pdf
:idea::idea::idea:
note;
this is where the 1911 got it's name and reputation and became the standard side arms for our military
john brownings 1911 was tested in this theather
:idea::idea::idea:

[The Bos'un]

Been there done that. You were not in the forum during the old days that I ranted about radical islam. I also looked up to Thomas Jefferson and the way that that our marines took care of the situation from the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli.

I want to discuss the process of Jihadism, not paint the whole lot of them with the same brush...

[enchantedking]

Been there done that. You were not in the forum during the old days that I ranted about radical islam. I also looked up to Thomas Jefferson and the way that that our marines took care of the situation from the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli.

I want to discuss the process of Jihadism, not paint the whole lot of them with the same brush...
remember chief
BOJINKA PLOT WAS HATCHED IN THE P.I.
the P.I. is a major battle ground against the jihadist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Rebellion
:idea:
bin laden has many ties in the P.I.
:idea::idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_plot
:idea::idea:

[The Bos'un]

I know about the Manila plot and how some Islamists were ploting to kill the pope.

I know some of the Police Constabulary and Manila police officers who took apart that particular plot (defanged the jihadists). I had a friend who wasone of the patrol sargents. When AQ flew those planes into the WTC, my first utterance at 9AM east coast time was the Bojinka plot.

I did not dispute what you are saying. So my friend what does this have to do with the process a newly converted Muslim goes through to become a jihadist. When and how does the transition start and what is the process that makes a confused searching kid like Lindh or Gahdan flip?

We are talking on different planes. You are wrapped up in jihadist plots and plans and I was hoping to discuss the process a convert or young muslim goes through making the transition.

By the way, so far you have not brought up something I did not know. ;)

[enchantedking]

I know about the Manila plot and how some Islamists were ploting to kill the pope.

I know some of the Police Constabulary and Manila police officers who took apart that particular plot (defanged the jihadists). I had a friend who wasone of the patrol sargents. When AQ flew those planes into the WTC, my first utterance at 9AM east coast time was the Bojinka plot.

I did not dispute what you are saying. So my friend what does this have to do with the process a newly converted Muslim goes through to become a jihadist. When and how does the transition start and what is the process that makes a confused searching kid like Lindh or Gahdan flip?

We are talking on different planes. You are wrapped up in jihadist plots and plans and I was hoping to discuss the process a convert or young muslim goes through making the transition.

By the way, so far you have not brought up something I did not know. ;)
many of the jihadist who fought in afganistan came from the P.I.
after afganistan many of the middle eastern jihadist went to the P.I.
the MNLF sent their new recruits to saudi arabia as a contactor then they are taken to afganistan then back to saudi arabia then back to the P.I.
then they are conceadered foriegn train
just like members of abu sayaf
the plot and the players along with the playing field inter twines
read between the lines:idea::silenced:

[The Bos'un]

where the hell you get this conspriacy ********? The OP was originally talking about process of jihadism and you want to blame the philippines. :))

golly gee barney.....:))

[enchantedking]

where the hell you get this conspriacy ********? The OP was originally talking about process of jihadism and you want to blame the philippines. :))

golly gee barney.....:))
chief not blaming the P.I.
just making a point here.
on where is a central area in this jihadist movements.
the P.I. is and will always be a U.S. ally
infact the filipinos proved them selves in WWII when the colonies of england,franch,holland went against their colonist and sided with the japs.
the filipinos did the opposite and that is why the japs was treated the filipinos harshly.

in the 80's, many members of the mnlf posed as a contractor to work in saudi arabia and did many filipinos.
but the members of the mnlf once in saudi arabia did not work in the construction fields in saudi arabia. instead they are taken to afganistan to fight the soviets after a year and a half to two years they are then taken back to saudi arabia then processed to be sent back to the P.I.
after the defeat of the soviets many of the jihadist from afganistan relocated in the P.I.
if you read the link I have provided about BOJINKA PLOT there are many refference to this movements by the former jihadist.
in order to under stand this movement of jihadist one must examine the activities being conducted by these jihadist operating in the P.I.
RAMZI YUSSEF is a prime example to this sort of activities going on in the P.I.:doh::wall::silenced:
read between the lines and look at the big picture:idea::idea:

[BA-DA-BING!"]

On Friday, Dennis Prager had an interesting show; For a one hour segment, he interviewed Daveed Gartenstine-Ross, a former Islamist who is now is now a full-time counterterrorism consultant.

Daveed also talked briefly about his book, My Year Inside Radical Islam: A Memoir.

In a nutshell, according to Human Events book service and Dennis Prager's interview with Daveed: We have gone back and forth about Islam, Muhammad, and Radicalized Islam. Some have a rather jaded view of the subject of radicalized Islam, some are naive, some are extremly for apology and appeasement or extermly against Muhammadanism.

With the latest incident that happend in Mumbai, and the revelations from Fox News, Report: Mumbai Terror Attack Aimed to Kill 5,000 People (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459284,00.html), on the motivations of the surviving terrorist, Azam Amir Kasab, and the group responsible, we have a lot more to learn. We need to fully understand the process of Islamism and how radicalization takes place of some who enter with peaceful intentions. The free world needs to fully understand the process of Islamism and how radicalization takes place with some who originally enter with peaceful intentions such as John Phillip Walker Lindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh) and Adam Gahdan (http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/09/the_azzam_threat_a_prelude_to.php).

Remember, I am not painting all Muhammedans with the same brush. Not all are radcial, I just have to learn how to understand the process of radicalization. I hope you are up for it too.

We need to think outside the box, folks. Those who want to wish it away, the Elephant in the room will remain there.

Has a leading authority on islam (my preference would be a Muslim) determined whether or not the koran should be taken literally?

A definitive answer to this question would be most helpful.

If literal, then why not engage Muslims in conversations about the koran. Lively debate on the topic would be most interesting.

[dportjoe]

Islam like Judaisim is constantly open to debte/discussion. You will get multipile experts giving multiple answers to the same question.

Certain branches are much more dogamtic than others-thus the enahnced tension when fundmentalist christianity appears to be projected as semi offical western policy ( in particular US policy).

Always remember that to many reisdents of Islamic nations if it's on TV or radio it is government approved-so when their Imam points to the words of an American televangelist beamed by into their home he can say "See the USA want's to destroy Islam or it wouild not be on TV" and the words will carry a lot of weight.

[BA-DA-BING!"]

Islam like Judaisim is constantly open to debte/discussion. You will get multipile experts giving multiple answers to the same question.

Certain branches are much more dogamtic than others-thus the enahnced tension when fundmentalist christianity appears to be projected as semi offical western policy ( in particular US policy).

Always remember that to many reisdents of Islamic nations if it's on TV or radio it is government approved-so when their Imam points to the words of an American televangelist beamed by into their home he can say "See the USA want's to destroy Islam or it wouild not be on TV" and the words will carry a lot of weight.

OK, I would love to see a debate amongst prominent Muslims as to whether the koran is to be taken literally or not.

If literal and billions follow this book, it is quite easy to understand how islam is radicalized.

[RusSEAL]

Bos'n- perhaps you're looking to the notions/evaluations of mindset, inculcation & [in the case of extremism] propagation of a sect or ideological premise to a faith?

What I've noted involving extremism- any form of extremism- is the initial notion of liberation; this liberation I should probably define as a philisophical/spiritual acknowledgement that comes from acceptance not only of a belief system/structure but acceptance by that structure/society.

Then comes with this liberation is "conscription"- a call of/to action in regards to the "protection" of a faith or ideological system. Look at "revival gospel"; look to Fascio-Leftist politicos like Kos/Pink... there is an underlying "need" for protection of the system not only for the ideology itself but for the individual.

From there- my perceptions of the conscription movement begin to fog; at least in terms of being able to explain it without losing track of the steps/kernels/fascets of such conscription...

Is this where you prefer to go with the discussion?

If so- I find it intriguing but I always preface any discussions I'd have with people around me that we begin to step on the trappings of most religions known to man. Some of the more esoteric Eastern philosophies [used as "tools" of thought] I've studied allows me to detach from the "personal" side of religious dogma and still handle critical analysis but for many/most this isn't possible as any semblance of a debarcation line from "speculation" and grounded [innocent?] questions begin to fall into "attacks" from those who can not separate their faith travels from religious "life".

Steer me toward what star you wish to follow- I'll pony up just enough to prove how much I don't know...

RusS

[The Bos'un]

Bos'n- perhaps you're looking to the notions/evaluations of mindset, inculcation & [in the case of extremism] propagation of a sect or ideological premise to a faith?

What I've noted involving extremism- any form of extremism- is the initial notion of liberation; this liberation I should probably define as a philisophical/spiritual acknowledgement that comes from acceptance not only of a belief system/structure but acceptance by that structure/society.

Then comes with this liberation is "conscription"- a call of/to action in regards to the "protection" of a faith or ideological system. Look at "revival gospel"; look to Fascio-Leftist politicos like Kos/Pink... there is an underlying "need" for protection of the system not only for the ideology itself but for the individual.

From there- my perceptions of the conscription movement begin to fog; at least in terms of being able to explain it without losing track of the steps/kernels/fascets of such conscription...

Is this where you prefer to go with the discussion?

If so- I find it intriguing but I always preface any discussions I'd have with people around me that we begin to step on the trappings of most religions known to man. Some of the more esoteric Eastern philosophies [used as "tools" of thought] I've studied allows me to detach from the "personal" side of religious dogma and still handle critical analysis but for many/most this isn't possible as any semblance of a debarcation line from "speculation" and grounded [innocent?] questions begin to fall into "attacks" from those who can not separate their faith travels from religious "life".

Steer me toward what star you wish to follow- I'll pony up just enough to prove how much I don't know...

RusS

it is interesting that you mention this. It appears to me that when one begins to develop the notion ones religious views can be imposed upon others by force. As we can see with those who embrace radical islam, and it is supported by fatwas and passages in the Qur'an, that those who commit apostasy (leave islam) should be killed. Radicalized islam takes on a completely totalitarian view that Islamists are chosen to enforce the faith. In the 21st century in the more progressive Islamist countries we have religious police, morals police, and those who enforce society dress codes. They still stone victims of rape.

Progressive liberalism appears to metamorphose itself in the same process that radical islam and other radicalized notions do. I have said many times that liberal tolerance is a misnomer when applied to present day liberalism. I have found that the more progressive liberals are about as intolerant as .................................... Just ask one, he or she will tell you that only their opinions count (bush derangement syndrome).

Well we better get back to the process in which a moderate Muhammadan or convert becomes a wild eyed radical.........

[The Bos'un]

So now, some are concerned that Somali youth in Minnesonastan, USA are joining the JIHAD in Somolia. Jihad Recruiting Effort May Explain Missing Somalis in Minneapolis Area (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461865,00.html)
Dozens of young Somali men in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area have disappeared in recent months, causing community members and U.S. intelligence officials to fear that they are joining jihadist groups in Somalia.
Officials are especially concerned that some of the men may be destined to return to the U.S. after they have received terrorist training.
The missing young men have been the focus of some attention since late October, when Shirwa Ahmed, a naturalized U.S. citizen, died in a suicide bombing in northern Somalia (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461865,00.html#). Ahmed was a 1999 graduate of Minneapolis's Roosevelt High School.
Hello, anyone listening? What causes a peaceful Muhammedan to become a raving islamist lunatic?

[notluzn]

There is no such thing as Radical Islam. Nothing in Islam has changed since it was founded.

[The Bos'un]

It may have been founded by a caravan raiding, murdering, pedophile who justified what he did by abrogating versed that he claimed he received. When one looks at the chronological order of his verses rather than the order that the book was arranged in, then one may begin to see a pattern of degradation.

In saying that, there are many moderate and secular Muhammadans who do not commit violent acts and would like to live in peace with non believers. Why do some choose the path of violent Islamic Jihad?

[JerryN]

One of the first characteristics of the elephant that we need to get past is the conflict between our principle of freedom of religion and the Muslim principle that religion and politics are intertwined.

Given the history of the region where Islam was born this may have been a good thing, providing order to a fractured culture. But that was over a thousand years ago, times have changed and nowhere else is this interaction permitted.

How can we grant Muslims freedom of religion when their religion is in direct opposition to the freedoms this country was founded on?

How can we limit the political activity of a 'religion' that does not separate the two?
This is especially troubling when you consider that most of this activity is subversive through their teaching rather than direct covert activities.

[Abe]

there are many moderate and secular Muhammadans who do not commit violent acts and would like to live in peace with non believers. Why do some choose the path of violent Islamic Jihad?
Bro'sun, yours is the 100,000 (golden) Dinar question. Much of it has to do with young Muslims from conservative Muslim homes. They feel that they have no future. In this modern world, many cannot find conservative girls to marry. They wander through a "decadent" world and feel that their illustrious past is being stepped on by their inferiors. Radicals, posing as their friends, tell them how wonderful it would be if they carried Jihad to the whole world, and helped bring back ancient glory to Islam. They begin to see themselves as heroes to their relatives and friends; as those who would be part of the leadership of the new/old Islam that would sweep the world.

After talking many times with young, conservative Muslim university students in Cairo, I saw how depressing their lives were. I had known this in a theoretic manner but, being used to Israeli Muslims, who had a life, this was new to me actively. Young men who need reinforcement of values, look to mentors. If their values start moving to religion, (or have already been there for some time), and their mentor comes across, (to them), as being both understanding of their confused state and wise in the religious sense, he then has extreme influence over them. If, in actual fact, a recruiter for Jihad, he's now in a position to nudge them in the required direction; an otherwise confused young man becomes a crazed suicide-killer who believes in the "virtuous" call that he hears.

This is only one scenario. I believe there are many; no fewer, are the recruiters, both young and old, who prey on these confused youths.

[enchantedking]

one solution
soak all of them in pig lard:idea:

[The Bos'un]

As I said before, revenge will not make the pain go away, my friend. I was trained to shoot to stop. If the person whom I was to shoot at got killed, the object was to stop him and the collateral damage is acceptable.

I suppose that all dead terrorists should be wrapped in pig skins and soaked in pig **** to send a message that they are not going to paradise and are not going to collect 72 virgin boys or girls.

However, if we do not defile the dead, is it going to be ok? Is being humane a sign of weakness in middle eastern mindset?

[enchantedking]

As I said before, revenge will not make the pain go away, my friend. I was trained to shoot to stop. If the person whom I was to shoot at got killed, the object was to stop him and the collateral damage is acceptable.

I suppose that all dead terrorists should be wrapped in pig skins and soaked in pig **** to send a message that they are not going to paradise and are not going to collect 72 virgin boys or girls.

However, if we do not defile the dead, is it going to be ok? Is being humane a sign of weakness in middle eastern mindset?
:idea::idea::idea::angel::silenced:

[The Bos'un]

Jerry, perhaps you should study Islam a little more. Sounds like you would like clean up the elephant a little and paint its toenails ;)

Arabia was surrounded by more successful cultures of Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism which influenced Muhammad and lead to him searching for an Arab Cultural Identity to replace to paganism of the day. Muhammad wanted to enhance the Ummah and achieve an enhanced cultural identity.

In the year 610 AD, Muhammad claimed to have received the first recitation of the Qur'an. He did prove to be a brilliant leader and was savvy in bringing Arabs into submission.

Muhammad suffered much humiliation early on. As he preached monotheism to the pagans of Mecca, who incidentally worshiped about 360 gods, including allah, at the Kaaba, they did not like him upsetting their ways. Muhammad was eventually run out of Mecca, went to Medina and after gathering followers, went back to eventually conquered Mecca, clean up the Kaaba, discharge the other gods and placed allah as their god. Muhammad united the Bedouins of the Peninsula under the banner of Islam.

By the year 630, Muhammad sealed the deal on the peninsula with Islam.

When Muhammad died in 632, there was no established rule of secession. Abu Baker stepped up and by popular acclaim declared himself the sessor of Muhammad. His Caliphate lasted 2 years, 632 - 634. Then came Umar ibn al-Khattab 634 - 644. Umar and Abu had a strong working relationship.
Uthman ibn Affan was next 644 - 656, He was assassinated due to perceived corruptions and his work to finalize the scribing of the official Qur'an.

Ali ibn Talib was next, 656-661. He was noted as the earliest convert to Muhammad's preaching in Medina. He was also assassinated for compromises and not sticking with the faith.

Islam started out of the box, so to speak, to a poor start with wars, rumors of wars, and assassinations left and right.

I would not say that it has changed much and is still a mystic religion that has wars, rumors of wars, and the sword.

The linage of caliphs and imams ushered in the creation of the Islamic civilization (spread by the sword) 700 - 950.

By 750 Mohammedans controlled Spain and much of the Mediterranean to the Indus River to Turkey; a far cry different than the polytheistic Arab peninsula surrounded by three monotheistic religions when Muhammad started his quest.

Islam used the carrot and the stick to spread Islam; a little tender care and the sword.

I suspect that the reason that Muhammadans, through the teaching of their Muhammad have "us" vs "them" because of dominance and submission of certain Qur'anic passages.

[ElricY2K]

Interesting topic Bo'sun

I would have to brush up on my islamic history before getting into a lengthy discussion...however, I'm gonna take a feeble stab at it...

ALL three religions of the book, basically have always wanted to control the same little piece of land....

If we look back to the middle ages, the situation was somewhat reversed. The "holy land" was in the hand of the Muslims, who at the time, had the technological and economic advantage. In many ways, the constant attacks (the Crusades) could be viewed as terrorist attacks. However, the discrepincy in relative power of the two sides wasnt THAT great. While the muslims were more advanced, the Crusaders were not THAT far behind. I think that is kind of the reverse of what is happening today.

The RADICAL (and political) wing of the Islamic world is at an economic and military disadvantage. They CAN'T regain the "holy land" through traditional military means. At the same time, the economic and military advantage of Isreal and it's ally is vast. The Radicals know that they cannot dream of winning a conventional confrontation...so they use guerilla/terror tactics.

(Please note that I am not CONDONING anything. I feel that ANYONE who TARGETS civilians is just plain EVIL)

[The Bos'un]

You are a little off. Before Muhammad the pedophile, the Arabian Peninsula, including Mecca was involved in PAGAN worship. There were about 360 gods worshiped at the Kaaba.

Muhammad who realized that Christians Jews and Zoroastrians were much more advanced that the Bedouins, used teaching of the three monotheistic religions to mold his new monotheistic styled ideology.

You may consider taking a some 300 level world religion classes and study the history of the Middle East from an accredited university to put 2 and 2 together. Have a good day.

And your comments on the Crusaders may be somewhat inaccurate, too.

[Cav Scout]

Interesting topic Bo'sun

I would have to brush up on my islamic history before getting into a lengthy discussion...however, I'm gonna take a feeble stab at it...

ALL three religions of the book, basically have always wanted to control the same little piece of land....

If we look back to the middle ages, the situation was somewhat reversed. The "holy land" was in the hand of the Muslims, who at the time, had the technological and economic advantage. In many ways, the constant attacks (the Crusades) could be viewed as terrorist attacks. However, the discrepincy in relative power of the two sides wasnt THAT great. While the muslims were more advanced, the Crusaders were not THAT far behind. I think that is kind of the reverse of what is happening today.

The RADICAL (and political) wing of the Islamic world is at an economic and military disadvantage. They CAN'T regain the "holy land" through traditional military means. At the same time, the economic and military advantage of Isreal and it's ally is vast. The Radicals know that they cannot dream of winning a conventional confrontation...so they use guerilla/terror tactics.

(Please note that I am not CONDONING anything. I feel that ANYONE who TARGETS civilians is just plain EVIL)

someone has been reading to much revisionist history.

[The Bos'un]

:clap: I was thinking the same thing.

[ElricY2K]

Please explain what I was so OFF about?

And what revisionist history are you talking about?

Am I wrong that during the crusades (middle ages) the muslims had the technological and economic advantage?

Did the crusaders NOT use SOME terror tactics...such as slaughtering an entire city after a successful siege?

Am I wrong that the 3 religions of the book have been fighting over the worthless desert that they deem the "Holy Land"?

Am I wrong that RIGHT now...the Muslims are at an overwhelming tech/econ disadvantage?

I am simply saying that THEY know they can't win a conventional war...so they resort to terror tactics.

[Abe]

Am I wrong that during the crusades (middle ages) the muslims had the technological and economic advantage?No, you're not. You do, however, have to realise that the Muslim conquests did not start with the 10th Century. They invaded Western Europe in the beginning of the 8th Century CE, and invaded areas of the ME way before that.


Did the crusaders NOT use SOME terror tactics...such as slaughtering an entire city after a successful siege? As did the Muslims.


Am I wrong that the 3 religions of the book have been fighting over the worthless desert that they deem the "Holy Land"?As an Israeli, I take offense at that. Desert, much of it may be; worthless? Absolutely not.

Much of the State of Texas is desert. Would you call Texas worthless?

Jerusalem is not desert. The Galilee is not desert. My sister and brother-in-law farm in the desert.


Am I wrong that RIGHT now...the Muslims are at an overwhelming tech/econ disadvantage?No, you are not.


I am simply saying that THEY know they can't win a conventional war...so they resort to terror tactics. I agree with that.

Elric, you're oversimplifying the issue.

[opsyscw]

What is going to happen when the real all out war against the world starts?

As soon as they get their caliphate to launch the attacks from what will we do?

When all of the true moslems decide to fight inside our borders what will we do?
LOCK and LOAD.

That's what I'll do.

Until Obama tries to take or guns to make it easier for the true muslims.

[Light&Liberty]

I'm not sure what the confusion is here. A young Muslim would be inspired to radicalism by the same factor as any person, of faith or otherwise: force of circumstance.

[enchantedking]

I'm not sure what the confusion is here. A young Muslim would be inspired to radicalism by the same factor as any person, of faith or otherwise: force of circumstance.
so it might be a clash with RADICAL AMERICANS LIKE ME:idea::silenced::angel:
MORE TO SO
TRUE RED BLOODED AMERICANS:idea::exclaim::arrow:

[The Bos'un]

Don't waste your time with this one, Abe. A revisionist who wants to rewrite history should take some history lessons from one who knows the history. You'll not make any headway. Many liberal tolerants do not really care much about Israel or true history.

In earlier posts on this thread I tried to get the reality back with:


By 750 Mohammedans controlled Spain and much of the Mediterranean to the Indus River to Turkey; a far cry different than the polytheistic Arab peninsula surrounded by three monotheistic religions when Muhammad started his quest.

Islam used the carrot and the stick to spread Islam; a little tender care and the sword.

I suspect that the reason that Muhammadans, through the teaching of their Muhammad have "us" vs "them" because of dominance and submission of certain Qur'anic passages.
Hardened American liberals tend to ignore the reality of the caliphates conquests of the more radicalized Muhammadans. They should spend a little of their elitist time reading the Qur'an, Hadiths, and other ******** put out by the more radical Imams.

Have a good evening my friend.

Shalom
Your friend, Bosun

[irgun48]

this link below speaks volumes

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020472.php

[The Bos'un]

Fitna. Thanks. It has been a while.

[Radioflyer]

It's not radical to follow the instructions as written... in the Koran. As the Terrorists do. Holding life sacred, valuing freedom, that is radical in the Islamic world.

[The Bos'un]

What are the instructions that was first recited to Muhammad? Where in the Qur'an is the life of Kafirs and Ahl Kitab held sacred? Where in the Qur'an are Apostates lives sacred?

Only complete obedience to allah is sacred, the rest is fuel for ............. ;)

[The Bos'un]

I pray for reformation and enlightenment. Until then, true peace may be elusive.

We need to find a way to live in peace with Islam, the world's fastest growing religion. Moderates have to reform Islam from within.

[BobB]

What is going to happen when the real all out war against the world starts?

As soon as they get their caliphate to launch the attacks from what will we do?

When all of the true moslems decide to fight inside our borders what will we do?

Obama will sit down and have tea with them! Just like the French and English did with Hitler! Different Nationality but the same scum!

[The Bos'un]

Think outside the box. After the pillar of the islamic community was just accused of beheading his wife in NY, maybe we have to examine how this could happen? When does a follower of the religion of peace, flip out? When does a moderate become a lunatic murderer, homicide bomber, terrorist?

Can we unravel the mystery?

[Marshall]

There is a significant question which has to be answered. Is there a branch of Islam which does not believe it is their duty to eventually either convert or kill all those with whom they disagree (ie infidels)? To my knowledge, the only distinction between radical Islam and moderate Islam is the timing. It is my understanding that the moderates are simply biding their time and gaining power until they can successfully destroy the Infidel. They are encouraged to lie, cheat and steal in pursuit of this goal, including the making of alliances and peace treaties with their ultimate victims.

I hope my understanding is wrong, but I fear any response to the contrary is just part of the subterfuge toward the ultimate elimination of all infidels.

This is not intended to disparage Islam, but an attempt to understand the TRUTH about it. Is their really a chance at a permanent peaceful coexistence between Islam and Non Islam believers or is the hope of such just a Trojan Horse?

[The Bos'un]

This is not intended to disparage Islam, but an attempt to understand the TRUTH about it. Is their really a chance at a permanent peaceful coexistence between Islam and Non Islam believers or is the hope of such just a Trojan Horse? That is a good question.

[The Bos'un]

bump

[The Bos'un]

Marshall it is difficult to answer the question. some say yes and some say no.

[msklar]

I sent the following e-mail and disturbing Muslim Kuwaiti Professor Video to our Senators, my Congressmen, and the President. Perhaps you can make you can inform others. My e-mail and the video link follow.

__________________________


Dear _______


This e-mail contains a link at the end to an alarming video. I send this to inform and insure that our leaders, such as you, continue to be aware of those threats which start small. While watching the inflammatory rhetoric of the speaker, please realize that this is not a Jihadist from Iran but a professor from Kuwait - a country with every reason to be grateful to the USA for liberating it from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein’s invasion. Anyone entertaining ideas of western democracies establishing friendly relations with the radicals of the Islamic world should watch this video.
If you have not seen this video, although there may be others like it that the Moussad, CIA, etc., may have knowledge of, those of us in the public probably become immune to this as we go about our daily lives. Thoughts of talking with enemies are a nice thought, if your enemies are concerned about self-destruction, as the Communists were when many of us grew up with the fear of nuclear war. When enemies are willing to sacrifice not only themselves, but many of their brethren, a different strategy and approach other than MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) is required. I recommend sharing this not to arouse fear but to educate those who may have forgotten that 9/11 could happen again, and probably much worse. The government needs to instill the majority of the Muslim world that either they stop these terrorists from fulfilling their goals, or we will likely end up in a wider war with them. What can we do now? - The government and the public needs to hope the carrots will work, but prepared to use a big stick. My fear is that the backlash against the Bush Administration may develop into a complacency that will lead to many American and non-American lives being lost. What about those open borders?

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=0861ff3eabea1ceb73e4

[The Bos'un]

Jefferson, Adams, and Churchill sounded the alarm on radicalized islamists eons ago. All on deaf ears. Doubt it will do much good.. But, you get an "A" for trying......

America and the western world will implode due to liberalism and radical muhammedans will sit on the sidelines laughing as we destruct. Then, they will move in and push the moderates out of the way.....