Teachers cannot stay after hours for conferences.

[HSMaxim]

I received a letter from the school informing the parents that if we want a parent teacher conference this year, that we must schedule them during school hours since the teachers union did not agree to allow teachers to stay after school this year to provide hours for working parents to have a conference.

So, I must lose time at work, which will affect my pay, which will affect my child, just because the union does not think that teachers should have to stay an extra three hours a day twice a year in order for parents to have a face to face talk with the person that is educating their child during the day.


What a joke.
Sorry to rant, but to me, these meetings are part of the job, and to make a parent lose time at work, or lose the chance to speak to the teacher one on one altogether is not very helpful to the child.

[RogerDodger]

Or you could say that the teacher's time is just as valuable as yours.

If you can't take a couple of hours off work twice a year to meet with your child's teacher, that doesn't say much for your involvement in your child's education.

[jimjames418]

I received a letter from the school informing the parents that if we want a parent teacher conference this year, that we must schedule them during school hours since the teachers union did not agree to allow teachers to stay after school this year to provide hours for working parents to have a conference.

So, I must lose time at work, which will affect my pay, which will affect my child, just because the union does not think that teachers should have to stay an extra three hours a day twice a year in order for parents to have a face to face talk with the person that is educating their child during the day.


What a joke.
Sorry to rant, but to me, these meetings are part of the job, and to make a parent lose time at work, or lose the chance to speak to the teacher one on one altogether is not very helpful to the child.
In my district the teachers get a full day off following evening conferences.

What a crock. Most contracts have the save arrangement.

[lassidor]

I'd make you a bet.
The school probably fused to pay the teachers for the overtime.
The Union probably said our teachers don't work for free.

Do you work for free at your job?

[Oddball]

Or you could say that the teacher's time is just as valuable as yours.

If you can't take a couple of hours off work twice a year to meet with your child's teacher, that doesn't say much for your involvement in your child's education.
Just who is the customer and who is the "public servant" here??

As with every other monoply in the history of monopolies, gubmint schools cost too much and deliver less and less value for those dollars every year.

[jimjames418]

I'd make you a bet.
The school probably fused to pay the teachers for the overtime.
The Union probably said our teachers don't work for free.

Do you work for free at your job?
Either you don't know what you are talking about, or you don't the laws regarding overtime pay.

Teachers are contracted to perform their work. Contracted employees are not entitled to overtime unless their pay falls below the minimum wage for the hours worked. Gues what, they are not eligible to claim overtime.

And if they were eligible, time off (with pay) in lieu of pay is an approved method as long as it reaches the same ratio as pay. A full day off for working three hours more than meets that standard.

[RogerDodger]

Just who is the customer and who is the "public servant" here?

I you want to use the customer analogy, how many businesses do you know that require their employees to stay past their normal work hours to accomodate customers schedules. If you want the product badly enough, you find the time to work it in your schedule. No doubt the OP finds time to do their grocery shopping during the store's business hours. Of course, here we are talking about the big, bad "gubmint" teachers that so many love to demonize.


As with every other monoply in the history of monopolies, gubmint schools cost too much and deliver less and less value for those dollars every year.

Ever hear of private schools? Or home schooling?

[jimjames418]

I you want to use the customer analogy, how many businesses do you know that require their employees to stay past their normal work hours to accomodate customers schedules. If you want the product badly enough, you find the time to work it in your schedule. No doubt the OP finds time to do their grocery shopping during the store's business hours. Of course, here we are talking about the big, bad "gubmint" teachers that so many love to demonize. :)) :)) :))
Yeah, that is why the big box stores are open 31 (24/7 for those not watching much tv). My local grocery store is open from 7 am to 12 midnight, my local drug store is open 9 am to 9 pm.

I go past many mini malls and their stores are open until well past 8 pm.

[Oddball]

Uh-hh...And how many business continue to keep their doors open by charging more and more to deliver a worse and worse product, and where the customer is almost always wrong??

[Meriweather]

On the other hand, the school where I work most often sent letters to the parents of every child who was in danger of receiving a failing mark(s) to discuss how to best help their student. One parent (a father) showed up.

[lassidor]

Either you don't know what you are talking about, or you don't the laws regarding overtime pay.

Teachers are contracted to perform their work. Contracted employees are not entitled to overtime unless their pay falls below the minimum wage for the hours worked. Gues what, they are not eligible to claim overtime.

And if they were eligible, time off (with pay) in lieu of pay is an approved method as long as it reaches the same ratio as pay. A full day off for working three hours more than meets that standard.

The original post didn't mention any time off offered to the teachers. Subsequent posts mentioned that fact but if wasn't stated as to if it was an option.

As far as the law goes most states require overtime pay for working more than 40/hrs a week. Most states don't mention salaried employees. Most states do allow this requirement to be superceded by collective bargaining agreements. Federal Flex pay laws generally only refer to federal employees and they basically say that if you work over 40 then you get time off later and your pay remains the same the whole time.

Since the "evil" union was blamed for not letting teachers work overtime, I'm going to assume there was a collective bargaining agreement in place when the decisions were made not to work over. We have no way of knowing what that agreement stated about extra work. Since there wasn't an agreement between the schools and the union I'm going to assume that working over for some reason violated that collective bargaining agreement, most likely due to a pay issue. So again I stand by the assertion of not working for Free. If you weren't being payed you wouldn't work.

If you can produce any links or info to prove the assumptions wrong or a copy of the concerned CBA we would all love to see them. I doubt you can. It is much easier to simply villify the teachers and give a pass to the school.

[jimjames418]

If you can produce any links or info to prove the assumptions wrong or a copy of the concerned CBA we would all love to see them. I doubt you can. It is much easier to simply villify the teachers and give a pass to the school.
No, I cannot produce any links. But I can tell you from my 27 years experience in a school district, that teachers are all over the board when it comes to parent-teacher conferences and how best to handle them.

But never, in the years I was there, did the teachers ever refuse to schedule after hours work for conferences, as long as they got time off later. The most sucessful timing was where the teachers did not report for work until 1 pm and worked until 8 pm. And that schedule resulted in the most parents attending the conferences also. ;)

[page017]

No, I cannot produce any links. But I can tell you from my 27 years experience in a school district, that teachers are all over the board when it comes to parent-teacher conferences and how best to handle them.

But never, in the years I was there, did the teachers ever refuse to schedule after hours work for conferences, as long as they got time off later. The most sucessful timing was where the teachers did not report for work until 1 pm and worked until 8 pm. And that schedule resulted in the most parents attending the conferences also. ;)

That's generally the way it is. At least from the schools I've seen. But it's still a contract issue. My guess is this districts contract has either expired, or the teachers asked for something in the contract in exchange for working late, and the district refused. So we don't have the full story here. I'd imagine, and hope, that the teachers have a side to the story here. Personally, I don't care for the half days that follow conferences. I teach the same class 4 times a day. So either two classes end up a day ahead, two end up a day behind, or I have to rush with two classes for a few days, while slowing two down. Or we don't end up doing much during the classes that have class that day. And it's always the first half of the day, where the kids tend to work faster anyway. And it ends up not even being more convienient for the parents, since there's the half day where the parents have to arrange for their kids anyway.

[countmein]

I you want to use the customer analogy, how many businesses do you know that require their employees to stay past their normal work hours to accomodate customers schedules. If you want the product badly enough, you find the time to work it in your schedule. No doubt the OP finds time to do their grocery shopping during the store's business hours. Of course, here we are talking about the big, bad "gubmint" teachers that so many love to demonize.



Ever hear of private schools? Or home schooling?

To answer your question; salaried employees. Most contracted or salaried positions require a person to work as many hours as it takes to get the job done. Teachers are not paid hourly.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of teachers who do CARE about their students and would be willing to stay, but the union has tied their hands.

[RogerDodger]

:)) :)) :))
Yeah, that is why the big box stores are open 31 (24/7 for those not watching much tv). My local grocery store is open from 7 am to 12 midnight, my local drug store is open 9 am to 9 pm.

I go past many mini malls and their stores are open until well past 8 pm.

OK, I'll admit the grocery store analogy was probably a bad one. But try telling your lawyer, your accountant, your insurance agent, even your doctor for anything other than life threatening emergencies, that you want to meet with them at 9 PM. Unless your extremely wealthy and keep these folks on some type of retainer, you'll probably be laughed out the door.

[RogerDodger]

To answer your question; salaried employees. Most contracted or salaried positions require a person to work as many hours as it takes to get the job done. Teachers are not paid hourly.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of teachers who do CARE about their students and would be willing to stay, but the union has tied their hands.

The post I was responding to said the school was a business, and the parents were customers. If that is the case, school hours are their business hours. Sure,the teacher may stay late grading papers, or some other activity, but they are not going to make themselves available at just any hour. To take it to the extreme, say a parent works a shift until midnight. Is the teacher suppose to wait up for them?

[jimjames418]

The post I was responding to said the school was a business, and the parents were customers. If that is the case, school hours are their business hours. Sure,the teacher may stay late grading papers, or some other activity, but they are not going to make themselves available at just any hour. To take it to the extreme, say a parent works a shift until midnight. Is the teacher suppose to wait up for them?
In every district the students have a take home sheet for their parents to sign up for conferences, and the times they would be available. They are assigned a time slot at least a week before the conferences.

And yes, a school district is a business. I was hired to run the district like a business, which I accomplished. Main office hours were 8 to 5, and the phone was answered by a real person. And if the phone rang more than three times before it was answered, someone received a good talking to. It took a while but once the changes were operating smoothly, all agreed it was much better than the old way.

Most school districts are in the top five employers and top ten in number of dollars spent within the district. Try to tell me that is not a business. ;)

[HSMaxim]

I'd make you a bet.
The school probably fused to pay the teachers for the overtime.
The Union probably said our teachers don't work for free.

Do you work for free at your job?

You are wrong.

[jimjames418]

OK, I'll admit the grocery store analogy was probably a bad one. But try telling your lawyer, your accountant, your insurance agent, even your doctor for anything other than life threatening emergencies, that you want to meet with them at 9 PM. Unless your extremely wealthy and keep these folks on some type of retainer, you'll probably be laughed out the door.
Any lawyer, accountant, insurance agent or any other person who is running their own business will meet with you at any time, at any place, and for as long as you want, in order to obtain your business. Those that won't or refuse to do so will soon find themselves out of business and in the unemployment line.

And I'll bet you that your doctor will see you in the hospital since most doctors spend half their nights there anyway. ;)

[HSMaxim]

Or you could say that the teacher's time is just as valuable as yours.

If you can't take a couple of hours off work twice a year to meet with your child's teacher, that doesn't say much for your involvement in your child's education.

The teachers get paid for the conferences, I do not get paid for them.

My job is driving truck, if I miss a few hours, that can make me miss two days depending on the scheduled loads.


The teachers conferences are part of being a teacher, at least in our district.

Maybe if you ever need the police or fired dept, I hope that they will stick around to finish their job even if their shift is over.

[HSMaxim]

I you want to use the customer analogy, how many businesses do you know that require their employees to stay past their normal work hours to accomodate customers schedules. If you want the product badly enough, you find the time to work it in your schedule. No doubt the OP finds time to do their grocery shopping during the store's business hours. Of course, here we are talking about the big, bad "gubmint" teachers that so many love to demonize.



Ever hear of private schools? Or home schooling?

Plumbers, furnace repairmen, mechanics, tow truck drivers, DJ's... shall I go on?

[HSMaxim]

OK, I'll admit the grocery store analogy was probably a bad one. But try telling your lawyer, your accountant, your insurance agent, even your doctor for anything other than life threatening emergencies, that you want to meet with them at 9 PM. Unless your extremely wealthy and keep these folks on some type of retainer, you'll probably be laughed out the door.

I have met with a lawyer, my insurance agent and my accountant all well past quitting time, and my dentist makes appointments for me as late as 7pm to accommodate my work schedule.

I live in a semi-rural area and maybe we are spoiled out here, or maybe we just are willing to go a bit out of our way to help each other out way out here in bitterville USA.

[HSMaxim]

The post I was responding to said the school was a business, and the parents were customers. If that is the case, school hours are their business hours. Sure,the teacher may stay late grading papers, or some other activity, but they are not going to make themselves available at just any hour. To take it to the extreme, say a parent works a shift until midnight. Is the teacher suppose to wait up for them?

A parent that works til midnight probably starts work sometime after noon, so that parent could have their meeting in the AM, before work.

[blimpo]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of teachers who do CARE about their students and would be willing to stay, but the union has tied their hands.


You know little about teachers and their unions. If a teacher wants to stay he/she stays.
I've done it, my associates have done it and no mafia goons have come around to threaten us.
The people that run the local teachers' union are teachers themselves.

The only issue of hanging around to meet with a parent is one of security or liability.
Some people are flat-out crazy. When you meet, it's not a bad idea to have others nearby especially if it is someone coming in to complain.

[karebear32]

I am a teacher and I have to say that I do make myself available "after hours". I wish our district/union would make it so we did not have to do this. Currently I get to work at 7am (not required to be there till 8) just to get more work done. I am required to stay until 3:30pm (often stay later). I can not begin to tell you of all the conferences with parents in which parents simply did not show up after I scheduled them before school and after school hours. I also know of a teacher across the hall who agreed to hold a conference at 6 pm and the parent did not show up at all-not even a phone call! Believe it or not, we as teachers also have families with children who need us on the home front as well. i have had to take off work to go in for conferences and I consider it part of my job as a parent without complaining about it. The number of hours I put in "not on school time" add up to approx. 20-25 a week. This is so that I can get all of my work done in addition to actually teaching during the day. Why? There is a lack of planning time available during the school day made available to our school-and when we get the time, it is taken up by meetings we are required to attend.

[Talk2Bill]

Or you could say that the teacher's time is just as valuable as yours.

If you can't take a couple of hours off work twice a year to meet with your child's teacher, that doesn't say much for your involvement in your child's education.

No it is not that at all. it sounds more like the district not wanting to factor in the hours as part of contracted time. Where I work we have 2 nights that we have to stay late. But those 2 nights count as a day out of out 185 contract.

And keep in mind this is unusually twice a year. it is not just at a parent's request.

but where my daughter attends, it is during the day.

[lassidor]

see it's all about following the agreement set forth by the school district.

[GA_LP]

I'd make you a bet.
The school probably fused to pay the teachers for the overtime.
The Union probably said our teachers don't work for free.

Do you work for free at your job?
How about the reverse, that they are paid for June, July and part of August and don't work. Its not for free, they just get compensated at a later time.

[GA_LP]

I you want to use the customer analogy, how many businesses do you know that require their employees to stay past their normal work hours to accomodate customers schedules. If you want the product badly enough, you find the time to work it in your schedule. No doubt the OP finds time to do their grocery shopping during the store's business hours. Of course, here we are talking about the big, bad "gubmint" teachers that so many love to demonize.



Ever hear of private schools? Or home schooling?
You mean that I should ignore the fact that I am being taxed to pay for the school and should have to pay even more tuition to send my kid to a private school? Its called representative government - WE get a say whether you like it or not, because ALL government employees work for the public.

[RogerDodger]

How about the reverse, that they are paid for June, July and part of August and don't work. Its not for free, they just get compensated at a later time.

I believe teachers are paid based on nine months, but it is spread over a twelve month period. Plus, most teachers use the summer months for their continuing education requirements and workshops; not to mention supervising extracurricular activities which often start much earlier than the school year.

I've often wondered why more people don't flock to the teaching field if they truly believed they received a paid three month vacation every year.

[101st. Combatmedic]

Or you could say that the teacher's time is just as valuable as yours.

If you can't take a couple of hours off work twice a year to meet with your child's teacher, that doesn't say much for your involvement in your child's education.

<DING>...

Awsome, love that answer. It's all about ME,ME,ME.

[Celtic Pax]

I believe teachers are paid based on nine months, but it is spread over a twelve month period. Plus, most teachers use the summer months for their continuing education requirements and workshops; not to mention supervising extracurricular activities which often start much earlier than the school year.

I've often wondered why more people don't flock to the teaching field if they truly believed they received a paid three month vacation every year.What you say is correct. Also, teachers work during the summer months as well as take courses to keep current and keep up their certifications. I have not taken a summer off in 25 years as I have taken courses, gone to seminars and taught summer school as well.

BTW, if you think your job is tough. Try teaching 17 kindergarten kids where you have 2 that have behavioral issues, 1 whose parents are locked in a major custodial battle, 3 or more who after 3 months still cannot read their own names, use scissors correctly, crawl under tables and chairs, cannot zip their own jackets or tie their own shoes. All the while you have to teach them to standards by June. Any volunteers?

:clap:Besides, summer is convalescents leave for teachers.:clap:

[Celtic Pax]

How about the reverse, that they are paid for June, July and part of August and don't work. Its not for free, they just get compensated at a later time.No, they are paid for Sept. - June and have their pay stretched for 52 weeks.

[lassidor]

I've often wondered why more people don't flock to the teaching field if they truly believed they received a paid three month vacation every year.

When you get paid like craap it doesn't matter how long of vacation you get :wall:

[Talk2Bill]

PAID summers off is a myth. We get paid for the 186 days we work. And the districts force us to take it over 12 months. For a while it looked like teachers were going to get fined by the federal government.

[GA_LP]

A myth, really? The last average salary I could readily find was $47k from 2005. I know a lot of other college graduates that don't make that much AND work year around. Most folks are tired of hearing teachers whine about how little they get paid and have 2 months off with pay. Oh, you do continuing education during that time you say. I'm an engineer, you think I don't have to keep up my education, PLUS work well over 40 hours a week, year around? Sorry, I'm not impressed. The national data shows what a crappy job is being done educating our kids. Maybe we don't believe that you are working as hard as you say anymore. I would never be able to keep MY job if I turned out the crap product that you folks are producing.

[lawandorder]

Hold on! Teachers are turning out crap? If that is what you think, you need to call up George W. Bush. "No child left behind" was the worst piece of legislatiion ever passed. One size fits all is not true. Teachers have to teach what is necessary to pass tests for reading and math. There is little, if any, time to teach anything else. The laws are fixed. Teachers are fed up, and burned out. Walk a day in their shoes, my friend. The public schools are quickly turning into juvinile justice centers. There is such lack of parental responsibility that, and this might make you feel better, that schools will BE OPEN 24/7. Already the students are fed breakfast and lunch. Their clothes get washed if soiled. If students come to school dressed inappropriately, they are changed into something else kept at school, since most parents will not bring them other clothes. Oh, and then there are all of the meetings with case managers, and psychologists, all done through out the course of any given day. So, I say, as a parent, please take a few minutes of your precious time for your child, because the teachers do it all day long.

[lawandorder]

I hear ya!! If non teachers only knew what we do!

[Talk2Bill]

A myth, really?

Yes a MYTH. If take a day off as a DOCK they dock me not 1/20 of my monthly pay but at 1/185 of my annual salary (which is the greater of the 2).


Just because most teachers are have no option to take their money as earned but over 12 months doesn't mean they get paid over the summer vacation.

your argument is based on how other other jobs pay is ridiculous.

[jimjames418]

PAID summers off is a myth. We get paid for the 186 days we work. And the districts force us to take it over 12 months. For a while it looked like teachers were going to get fined by the federal government.
No one can "force" you to delay your earned pay. You do so because you want to stabilize your income stream.

Call the Department of Labor, Hour and Wage Division if you want your pay as it is earned. Most districts have you choose each year, some carry your choice forward from year to year. Talk to your business manager.

[WorldWatcher]

Uh-hh...And how many business continue to keep their doors open by charging more and more to deliver a worse and worse product, and where the customer is almost always wrong??


Insurance Companies.


>>>>

[Celtic Pax]

No one can "force" you to delay your earned pay. You do so because you want to stabilize your income stream.

Call the Department of Labor, Hour and Wage Division if you want your pay as it is earned. Most districts have you choose each year, some carry your choice forward from year to year. Talk to your business manager.Depends on the state your in. I work in private but I do substituting and some work as a teacher assistant and they take out State retirement whether I want it or not. Some choice.

[WorldWatcher]

A myth, really? The last average salary I could readily find was $47k from 2005. I know a lot of other college graduates that don't make that much AND work year around. I'm an engineer, you think I don't have to keep up my education, PLUS work well over 40 hours a week, year around? Sorry, I'm not impressed. The national data shows what a crappy job is being done educating our kids. Maybe we don't believe that you are working as hard as you say anymore. I would never be able to keep MY job if I turned out the crap product that you folks are producing.


You realize your reference "average salary" you are talking about people with probably 7-12 years of experience and are comparing them to a college graduate with 0 years of experience, right?


Take a teachers salary, divide it by the number of contract days to arrive at a daily rate. Then use that daily rate and compare it to the daily rate of your college graduate, that gives you an apple-to-apple comparison.


Secondly I was the training administrator for a manufacturing company, usually our engineers completed their continuing education requirements by attending workshops and conferences on company time. Not all, but the majority of those whose points I had to track did. Some did it off the clock in classes, but usually they were working on a Masters, CAS, or Doctorate degree.


>>>>

[jimjames418]

Depends on the state your in. I work in private but I do substituting and some work as a teacher assistant and they take out State retirement whether I want it or not. Some choice.
We were not talking about deductions, we were talking about when you receive your regular pay check. Most teachers work under a 185-200 work day contract. They can elect to receive their pay over 10 months or over 12 months. 99% elect to receive their pay over 12 months. But all it takes to change that is a trip to their business office. ;)

[Celtic Pax]

We were not talking about deductions, we were talking about when you receive your regular pay check. Most teachers work under a 185-200 work day contract. They can elect to receive their pay over 10 months or over 12 months. 99% elect to receive their pay over 12 months. But all it takes to change that is a trip to their business office. ;)Again, depends on the state you are in. In Maine you get your money divided into 26 weekly payments. You can only decide to take the summer portion of your pay in a lump sum payment after the end of the school year or let it ride in regular bi-weekly payments. I presented the Maine State Retirement deduction as a further example that in Maine money is taken out whether you want it to or not as well. (Maine ranked 33rd in teacher salary 2005-06 and has not budged much from that lowly score but most making that salary have 6 or more years teaching)

[Talk2Bill]

Where I work there is NO OPTION. Everyone is paid over 12 months. (unless you leave the districts)

[WorldWatcher]

Where I work there is NO OPTION. Everyone is paid over 12 months. (unless you leave the districts)


Pretty much determined by local districts.


The our teachers (I'm in Human Resources for a division) have no option to be paid over 12 months if they are a 10 month teacher. They are paid in 10 installments. What they can do is setup an account with the local Credit Union based on direct deposit, the CU then takes a percentage of each of the 10 paychecks, puts it in a "side" account and makes payments back during the summer.


>>>>

[GA_LP]

You realize your reference "average salary" you are talking about people with probably 7-12 years of experience and are comparing them to a college graduate with 0 years of experience, right?


Take a teachers salary, divide it by the number of contract days to arrive at a daily rate. Then use that daily rate and compare it to the daily rate of your college graduate, that gives you an apple-to-apple comparison.


Secondly I was the training administrator for a manufacturing company, usually our engineers completed their continuing education requirements by attending workshops and conferences on company time. Not all, but the majority of those whose points I had to track did. Some did it off the clock in classes, but usually they were working on a Masters, CAS, or Doctorate degree.


>>>>
Who said anything about new graduates? I made no mention of experience at all. I know college grads that have been in their fields as long as you cite that barely make $40K. I've seen help wanted ads recently that paid $10 per hour and REQUIRED a BS. That's a base of $20,800.

I dated a teacher years ago and she worked a full time job during the summer because she bored easily. And yes, she did her continuing education year around. The only summer that she didn't work that I know of was the one she used to finish her MA.

[GA_LP]

Hold on! Teachers are turning out crap? If that is what you think, you need to call up George W. Bush. "No child left behind" was the worst piece of legislatiion ever passed. One size fits all is not true. Teachers have to teach what is necessary to pass tests for reading and math. There is little, if any, time to teach anything else. The laws are fixed. Teachers are fed up, and burned out. Walk a day in their shoes, my friend. The public schools are quickly turning into juvinile justice centers. There is such lack of parental responsibility that, and this might make you feel better, that schools will BE OPEN 24/7. Already the students are fed breakfast and lunch. Their clothes get washed if soiled. If students come to school dressed inappropriately, they are changed into something else kept at school, since most parents will not bring them other clothes. Oh, and then there are all of the meetings with case managers, and psychologists, all done through out the course of any given day. So, I say, as a parent, please take a few minutes of your precious time for your child, because the teachers do it all day long.
They were faring no better before NCLB than they have since. I'm lucky, because my son has the same insatiable curiosity to learn that I have. It made it very easy to educate him.

[GA_LP]

Yes a MYTH. If take a day off as a DOCK they dock me not 1/20 of my monthly pay but at 1/185 of my annual salary (which is the greater of the 2).


Just because most teachers are have no option to take their money as earned but over 12 months doesn't mean they get paid over the summer vacation.

your argument is based on how other other jobs pay is ridiculous.
Okay, your compensation is defered. What, exactly prevents you from working during the summer then? Also, how many sickdays do you get? Unless you've used them all, you shouldn't be docked at all.

[blimpo]

A myth, really? The last average salary I could readily find was $47k from 2005. I know a lot of other college graduates that don't make that much AND work year around. Most folks are tired of hearing teachers whine about how little they get paid and have 2 months off with pay. Oh, you do continuing education during that time you say. I'm an engineer, you think I don't have to keep up my education, PLUS work well over 40 hours a week, year around? Sorry, I'm not impressed. The national data shows what a crappy job is being done educating our kids. Maybe we don't believe that you are working as hard as you say anymore. I would never be able to keep MY job if I turned out the crap product that you folks are producing.


Your comments prove you don't have a clue what teachers deal with on a day to day basis.
Imagine the mouthiest, disrespectful kid in town, imagine about 12 of these in a room with 20 other kids who are influenced by these unruly ones.
Imagine you are also responsible for keeping order and on top of that raising their test scores. You have them for 42 minutes, then a new bunch enters and it starts over. Many come to class without books, paper, and pencils. They know the principal won't do anything to them. You'll see about 130 kids by the end of one day.
I forgot to mention that 8 of them are special ed and this is an inclusion class. Those 8 vary from being 3 to 5 years behind grade level in reading and writing. They were that way on the first day of school and their test scores will count.
You can't retain without parental permission.
In meetings you're constantly reminded you are terrible and if 1 of 32 possible subgroups of students don't make AYP you are a total failure-then you come on forums and read things like you have posted.
My kids have college degrees. If they had gone into education I would have done everything in my power to convince them otherwise-what a sad state that is....
Teaching, the new scapegoat profession.

[blimpo]

I would never be able to keep MY job if I turned out the crap product that you folks are producing.

If you were forced to work with the same quality of raw materials teachers are furnished you probably wouldn't want your job.

You would demand that the supplier provide better quality raw materials or you would switch suppliers. Teachers can't.
They must work with whatever walks in the door.
Your comparison is lame...

[blimpo]

They were faring no better before NCLB than they have since. I'm lucky, because my son has the same insatiable curiosity to learn that I have. It made it very easy to educate him.

Many aspects that weren't considered are worse.

Why don't you take your "insatiable curiosity" to a middle school and sub a few days?

That would be a real educational experience.

[historynut]

Your comments prove you don't have a clue what teachers deal with on a day to day basis.
Imagine the mouthiest, disrespectful kid in town, imagine about 12 of these in a room with 20 other kids who are influenced by these unruly ones.
Imagine you are also responsible for keeping order and on top of that raising their test scores. You have them for 42 minutes, then a new bunch enters and it starts over. Many come to class without books, paper, and pencils. They know the principal won't do anything to them. You'll see about 130 kids by the end of one day.
I forgot to mention that 8 of them are special ed and this is an inclusion class. Those 8 vary from being 3 to 5 years behind grade level in reading and writing. They were that way on the first day of school and their test scores will count.
You can't retain without parental permission.
In meetings you're constantly reminded you are terrible and if 1 of 32 possible subgroups of students don't make AYP you are a total failure-then you come on forums and read things like you have posted.
My kids have college degrees. If they had gone into education I would have done everything in my power to convince them otherwise-what a sad state that is....
Teaching, the new scapegoat profession.

Let’s see what the difference is:

You have less kids.
The class’s I was in went from 45 to 60+.

You have less languages and you have people to translate for you.
Try 17 different languages with translators for only two or three of the languages.
For the other languages the kids had to translate for each other.

I could go on and on about how things were worse.

The things I learned in grade school my kids did not have till 7th or 8th grade.
Now you do not get them till high school. Why?

I went to parent-teacher night and talked to the teachers that were there. Only about half shown up.
I tried to meet the other teachers but they would not shown up for meetings or I would be told they would see me on parent-teacher night.

I’m told it’s my fault that my kids did not learn. But I’m the one that shown up for the meetings (losing a days pay), I’m the one that checked there homework etc.

[lawandorder]

I disagree totally.

[GA_LP]

If you were forced to work with the same quality of raw materials teachers are furnished you probably wouldn't want your job.

You would demand that the supplier provide better quality raw materials or you would switch suppliers. Teachers can't.
They must work with whatever walks in the door.
Your comparison is lame...
That's rich - its not that you aren't doing your job, its due to the kids being idiots. Who's lame?
Your comments prove you don't have a clue what teachers deal with on a day to day basis.

Please see post#48

[GA_LP]

Many aspects that weren't considered are worse.

Why don't you take your "insatiable curiosity" to a middle school and sub a few days?

That would be a real educational experience.
Just as soon as I'm not short qualified technicians and junior engineers. Which hasn't happened in 5 years.

[blimpo]

Let’s see what the difference is:

You have less kids.
The class’s I was in went from 45 to 60+.

You have less languages and you have people to translate for you.
Try 17 different languages with translators for only two or three of the languages.
For the other languages the kids had to translate for each other.

I could go on and on about how things were worse.

The things I learned in grade school my kids did not have till 7th or 8th grade.
Now you do not get them till high school. Why?

I went to parent-teacher night and talked to the teachers that were there. Only about half shown up.
I tried to meet the other teachers but they would not shown up for meetings or I would be told they would see me on parent-teacher night.

I’m told it’s my fault that my kids did not learn. But I’m the one that shown up for the meetings (losing a days pay), I’m the one that checked there homework etc.


At our last parent-teacher conferences (in the evening) I had parents of 4 kids show up over two nights. I see hundreds of kids every day.

One year, only a few showed up for a meeting about the possibility of their kids being retained.
Many that received letters were at the front of the school with their dogs waiting in line to receive free rabies shots.

[blimpo]

Just as soon as I'm not short qualified technicians and junior engineers. Which hasn't happened in 5 years.


Sweet...

[historynut]

At our last parent-teacher conferences (in the evening) I had parents of 4 kids show up over two nights. I see hundreds of kids every day.

One year, only a few showed up for a meeting about the possibility of their kids being retained.
Many that received letters were at the front of the school with their dogs waiting in line to receive free rabies shots.

At almost all the parent-teacher conferences I have been to the parents had to get in line.

[page017]

I'm at the HS level, where the kids ways are a bit more set, but I would say I get somewhere between 25-35% of my parents to show up at our fall conference, and maybe 10% less at our spring conference. But the thing is, it's almost only the parents of the kids who are doing great. I've seen more kids get chewed out for having an 85 and not a 90, than for having a failing grade. Because the parents of the failing kids rarely show up at this level. And if they do, it's often to say they have no idea who to do for their kid. So I actually came up with a checklist for parents. Questions to ask your kid every day, assignments to check at different points in the week. Not that most ever stick with it, but it might actually help one or two kids a year. Which does make it worth it to me, but at the HS level, I like to see the kids pass because they want to pass, and not because their parents and teacher are making them. I usually keep track of which parents show up, and which don't, and typically there's a 15-20% difference in class average between the two groups. This last year the average of the kids whose parents came was 84%, and for those who did not it was a 67%

[Talk2Bill]

Okay, your compensation is defered. What, exactly prevents you from working during the summer then?

Nothing. In fact for the last 9 summers i worked summer school.

Also, how many sickdays do you get? Unless you've used them all, you shouldn't be docked at all.

We get 10 total leave days a year. But that is not relevant to the issue at hand. I said IF I were to get docked (Like if I missed a training day without a GOOD reason I could be docked). When they dock they take 1/185 of your total annual salary and NOT 1/20th the monthly amount.

If I were to get FIRED for cause on the last day of school, I would still get the rest of the money I already earned.

Teachers DO NOT get paid for days off or for the summer any more that ANYONE else on a salary gets paid for weekends.

[blimpo]

At almost all the parent-teacher conferences I have been to the parents had to get in line.


At the elementary level, but when they hit jr high it drops off to nothing.
The few that do come in are the ones you don't need to see. Their kids are doing fine.
The ones you really need to see never show up.

[historynut]

At the elementary level, but when they hit jr high it drops off to nothing.
The few that do come in are the ones you don't need to see. Their kids are doing fine.
The ones you really need to see never show up.

At all the Jr. High and High schools the parent-teacher conferences have had a lot of parents.

[thecynic]

From a teacher's perspective:

#1. Every single morning of the week I have a meeting (Mon: spec ed/ student eval. Tues:student help. Wed: team meeting. Thurs: department meeting. Fri: staff meeting)

#2. When we have conferences: We teach the full day on Thursday and then get 1/2 hour for dinner / conference preparation before we have 4 hours of conferences (btw...we have lines the whole time with no break). This means our conference preparation is done on our own time. We then have another 4 hours the following Tuesday for conferences that follows an entire day of teaching. We then get up in the morning on Wednesday and teach as if we did not just work an entire 12 hour day and then correct papers and plan for the next day.

#3. We have a 12 hour day on Friday for conferences with two 1/2 hour breaks for dinner and bathroom breaks. We have lines the entire time and rarely get any down time.

#4. Our weekend is then spent (on our own time) making the necessary accomodations that were agreed upon at conferences so that they are in place starting on that following Monday so that no child is left behind.

We do this twice per year with no preparation and no extra compensation or days off. Forgive me if you would like more...but I still have a family and children that need my attention, and I would prefer not to have to give up more of my unpaid time (salary..blah) in addition to the 3+ hours I devote each night to preparing my lessons (to indoctrinating the youth of America to socialist ways btw) and correcting papers and giving honest and sincere feedback. Looking at these message boards, and the hate that is splattered towards teachers makes me nautious sometimes...what a thankless job. We need support, not mudslinging.

[GA_LP]

Nothing. In fact for the last 9 summers i worked summer school.



We get 10 total leave days a year. But that is not relevant to the issue at hand. I said IF I were to get docked (Like if I missed a training day without a GOOD reason I could be docked). When they dock they take 1/185 of your total annual salary and NOT 1/20th the monthly amount.

If I were to get FIRED for cause on the last day of school, I would still get the rest of the money I already earned.

Teachers DO NOT get paid for days off or for the summer any more that ANYONE else on a salary gets paid for weekends.What I want is for everyone to realize that there is one factor being overlooked in most of this - why are our kids falling behind the rest of the world. I want everyone to take their politics and shove them and remember what is at stake.

Teachers, if you think your pay and working conditions suck, QUIT. I don't want anyone near my kids that aren't there because they want to be TEACHERS. I knew when I was 5 what I wanted to be when I grew up. If money is the only reason you are doing this job begone. Its a calling, just like joining the Army was for me. I'm an engineer because I love it, not just because we're the highest average paid group.

All these lunatic theories that are being thrown around need to go. Whatever was the standard in 1900 should be brought back because it was CLEARLY superior to what they are filling new teachers heads with now. My kids are not fodder for pet theories.

Parents, start PARENTING. Quit being afraid to discipline your kid and expect the teachers to do it for you. If you can't handle your little monster, what makes you think the teacher can? They have 30+ at a time. Get involved before its too late.

Rant over. Have a nice day.

[historynut]

From a teacher's perspective:

#1. Every single morning of the week I have a meeting (Mon: spec ed/ student eval. Tues:student help. Wed: team meeting. Thurs: department meeting. Fri: staff meeting)

#2. When we have conferences: We teach the full day on Thursday and then get 1/2 hour for dinner / conference preparation before we have 4 hours of conferences (btw...we have lines the whole time with no break). This means our conference preparation is done on our own time. We then have another 4 hours the following Tuesday for conferences that follows an entire day of teaching. We then get up in the morning on Wednesday and teach as if we did not just work an entire 12 hour day and then correct papers and plan for the next day.

#3. We have a 12 hour day on Friday for conferences with two 1/2 hour breaks for dinner and bathroom breaks. We have lines the entire time and rarely get any down time.

#4. Our weekend is then spent (on our own time) making the necessary accomodations that were agreed upon at conferences so that they are in place starting on that following Monday so that no child is left behind.

We do this twice per year with no preparation and no extra compensation or days off. Forgive me if you would like more...but I still have a family and children that need my attention, and I would prefer not to have to give up more of my unpaid time (salary..blah) in addition to the 3+ hours I devote each night to preparing my lessons (to indoctrinating the youth of America to socialist ways btw) and correcting papers and giving honest and sincere feedback. Looking at these message boards, and the hate that is splattered towards teachers makes me nautious sometimes...what a thankless job. We need support, not mudslinging.

#1. Every single morning of the week I have a meeting
Had that in every job I had.

#2. When we have conferences
Either at lunch time or at the end of the day. So much for going home on time.

#3. We have a 12 hour day on Friday for conferences with two 1/2 hour breaks for dinner and bathroom breaks
Suggest you check the law, you should be getting a break every 2 hours.

#4. Our weekend is then spent (on our own time) making the necessary accomodations that were agreed upon at conferences
My weekend, reseach the changes the customer asked for in the conference. Keeping myself up to date on the latest design news and the latest software. Going to school (at my own cost) to stay currect in my field and Currect in the latest software.

At looks like we put in the same amount of hours (paid and unpaid).
You have a union they get not just let you go. They can let me go at the end of the day.

[augurer]

#1. Every single morning of the week I have a meeting
Had that in every job I had.

#2. When we have conferences
Either at lunch time or at the end of the day. So much for going home on time.

#3. We have a 12 hour day on Friday for conferences with two 1/2 hour breaks for dinner and bathroom breaks
Suggest you check the law, you should be getting a break every 2 hours.

#4. Our weekend is then spent (on our own time) making the necessary accomodations that were agreed upon at conferences
My weekend, reseach the changes the customer asked for in the conference. Keeping myself up to date on the latest design news and the latest software. Going to school (at my own cost) to stay currect in my field and Currect in the latest software.

At looks like we put in the same amount of hours (paid and unpaid).
You have a union they get not just let you go. They can let me go at the end of the day.
OK, so you seem to agree you're even with the teachers. But you want them to give up more of their time to accomodate your "special" schedule?

Just as an aside, I'd suggest finding a new job, if you really have to deal with all of that in the IT industry and aren't being compensated for all of that time any better than a teacher's ~$25/hour. You should be making nearly double that, if not more, depending on where you live and your experience.

[page017]

Well, it looks like teachers not staying after for conferences is the exception and not the rule. We've got one post about a school where the policy was changed so that the formal conferences would not be after school, but I haven't seen anyone else come forward yet to say that their local teachers would refuse to meet with them. I know I've done conferences as early as 45 minutes before my day was supposed to start, and over 2 hours after my day has officially ended. We do have our official conferences twice a year after school, and that is in the contract. Missing those times without using sick time or personal time does come with consequences, and almost all teachers are there, or make arrangements to have all the missed conferences made up. But it is contractual. Going back to the OP, I still think there was some labor issue that we don't know about that led to that. And the idea is, that if the parents really want those after school conferences bad enough, they will tell their school board, who will then negotiate with the union to make some sort of deal. I know in my school, we get half a day of release time. Which I personally hate, because then I have my morning classes, and not the afternoon, which turns into a pain in the butt. I'd rather have a full days classes, and negotiate something different.

[blimpo]

At all the Jr. High and High schools the parent-teacher conferences have had a lot of parents.



20+ years of personal experience causes me to disagree.

It's the same with sports. The gyms are full of parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts for the little ones.

At the jr high level it's mom and dad if the kid is lucky.

[blimpo]

What I want is for everyone to realize that there is one factor being overlooked in most of this - why are our kids falling behind the rest of the world. I want everyone to take their politics and shove them and remember what is at stake.

Teachers, if you think your pay and working conditions suck, QUIT. I don't want anyone near my kids that aren't there because they want to be TEACHERS. I knew when I was 5 what I wanted to be when I grew up. If money is the only reason you are doing this job begone. Its a calling, just like joining the Army was for me. I'm an engineer because I love it, not just because we're the highest average paid group.


Personally knowing a teacher in Germany I know this, kids that don't cut it academically are channeled to vocational training and their scores are not included in the rankings.
All these lunatic theories that are being thrown around need to go. Whatever was the standard in 1900 should be brought back because it was CLEARLY superior to what they are filling new teachers heads with now. My kids are not fodder for pet theories.

Parents, start PARENTING. Quit being afraid to discipline your kid and expect the teachers to do it for you. If you can't handle your little monster, what makes you think the teacher can? They have 30+ at a time. Get involved before its too late.

Rant over. Have a nice day.


Personally knowing a teacher in Germany I know this, kids that don't cut it academically are channeled to vocational training and their scores are not included in the rankings.
Their "upper crust" is being compared to our new belief that all kids need to go to college.

As with the misleading SAT comparisons, we compare scores of states where 30% take the SAT to scores of states where over 60% take it.

The bottom line on test scores is that too many variables exist for valid comparisons. No respected scientist would report results where so many different situations and conditions are involved.

[GA_LP]

Personally knowing a teacher in Germany I know this, kids that don't cut it academically are channeled to vocational training and their scores are not included in the rankings.
Their "upper crust" is being compared to our new belief that all kids need to go to college.

As with the misleading SAT comparisons, we compare scores of states where 30% take the SAT to scores of states where over 60% take it.

The bottom line on test scores is that too many variables exist for valid comparisons. No respected scientist would report results where so many different situations and conditions are involved.Germany has always done this. They have 4 types of schools. The Gymnasium is the top university prep school. The Realschule is a midway approach. The Hauptschule is the votech and the Gesamtschule is a comprehensive school that combines them. I took German in high school and I graduated in 1983. This concept of everyone has a right to college is more socialist nonsense, it brings the quality down. I've seen so many help wanted ads that required a BS for jobs that absolutely do not require one. I also a want ad that required a BS and paid $10 an hour. Who is going to apply for that job? The average tuiton in Ga is $4000 per year. Who is going to spend $16,000 for a $20,800 salary?

[sandgal]

We were not talking about deductions, we were talking about when you receive your regular pay check. Most teachers work under a 185-200 work day contract. They can elect to receive their pay over 10 months or over 12 months. 99% elect to receive their pay over 12 months. But all it takes to change that is a trip to their business office. ;)

I have worked in 3 districts and in 2 different states and have never been offered a choice to take my pay over 10 months. Interesting...

[historynut]

OK, so you seem to agree you're even with the teachers. But you want them to give up more of their time to accomodate your "special" schedule?

Just as an aside, I'd suggest finding a new job, if you really have to deal with all of that in the IT industry and aren't being compensated for all of that time any better than a teacher's ~$25/hour. You should be making nearly double that, if not more, depending on where you live and your experience.

I was a designer. Starting pay is lower then a teachers but the top pay can be better.
I did want to point out that teachers are not the only one's that put in long hours.
As for conferences most of the teachers were no problem. But when your kid says they are not learning anything and thats the teacher that will not meet with you there's a problem. I did take time off from work 3 different days to see the teacher. There were 4 other parents that I know of that had the same problem. How do you help your kids if no one will talk to you?
She did take college perp class's in high school and went to college.

As for schools in Germany my neice went to school in Mexico and had problems when she started school here. Not because she was behind but because she was so far ahead.

[dportjoe]

As the spouse of 10 year veteran Special Ed aide who is working on her nasters in the field, I can tell you that teaching has changed, but the perceptions have not. Used to be any old BA/BS put you in classroom if that's what yu wanted to do. Now yu not only have to have the BA it's best to have a specialty, then 48 months after the first time you stand up and say "good morning class" you need to clutching a Masters degree or you are not a teacher. In Seattle the following people make more then teachers: Electricians, plumbers, the reccylke and garbage truck drivers, and food service managers at University of Washington. So I think they have every right to get ****ed about pay. As for confrences the original post provided no way to validate the claim. The only time we've had work time sessions with either of our two childres were in emergency situations involving eithrer behavior issues or follolw ups on special prgrams. We did have one after school session for my oldest which involved all six teacher, a counselor and vice principal (that's the one applying to Harvard-talk about a 180).

[blimpo]

Germany has always done this. They have 4 types of schools. The Gymnasium is the top university prep school. The Realschule is a midway approach. The Hauptschule is the votech and the Gesamtschule is a comprehensive school that combines them. I took German in high school and I graduated in 1983. This concept of everyone has a right to college is more socialist nonsense, it brings the quality down. I've seen so many help wanted ads that required a BS for jobs that absolutely do not require one. I also a want ad that required a BS and paid $10 an hour. Who is going to apply for that job? The average tuiton in Ga is $4000 per year. Who is going to spend $16,000 for a $20,800 salary?


We agree and you just blew your argument for why we are slipping behind the rest of the world in test scores...

[historynut]

I can't imagine the teacher won't meet with you. It seems more likely the teacher won't meet with you at your convenience. If they really won't meet with you at all, you need to speak to the principal.

More parent-teacher conference thoughts at: www.usefulopinions.blogspot.com (http://www.usefulopinions.blogspot.com/)

Took off three different days at the time the teacher said he could meet with me.
Talked to the principal he said because of the union there was nothing he could do.
I was not the only parent the teacher would set meeting times with and not show up.

[blimpo]

Took off three different days at the time the teacher said he could meet with me.
Talked to the principal he said because of the union there was nothing he could do.
I was not the only parent the teacher would set meeting times with and not show up.


Unusual case is yours. I wouldn't dare stand up a parent and neither would any of my collegues.

[GA_LP]

We agree and you just blew your argument for why we are slipping behind the rest of the world in test scores...Since when is Germany the rest of the world? Its one country. And we are slipping behind, because the purpose of high school is to prepare the student with the basic skills to enter the workforce or proceed to college. All should be prepared EQUALLY. The high school student that decides to go to votech should have the EXACT same education as the student that goes to college. What the other countries do, with their tiered system, is elitist. In America, YOU decide what you want to be and the only obstacle should be your talents and intelligence. Its not up to a bureaucrat to decide your fate at such a young age.

The problem is that the high school education has been so watered down that employers are placing unneeded requirements
to assure that the employees they hire are basically competent. The documented high school standards that existed circa 1900 put our current system to shame. And those that are truly gifted are easily diverted to early admission to college, which removes them from the equation.

[sgtmac_46]

Do you work for free at your job? More than you know!

[Cav Scout]

Since when is Germany the rest of the world? Its one country. And we are slipping behind, because the purpose of high school is to prepare the student with the basic skills to enter the workforce or proceed to college. All should be prepared EQUALLY. The high school student that decides to go to votech should have the EXACT same education as the student that goes to college. What the other countries do, with their tiered system, is elitist. In America, YOU decide what you want to be and the only obstacle should be your talents and intelligence. Its not up to a bureaucrat to decide your fate at such a young age.

The problem is that the high school education has been so watered down that employers are placing unneeded requirements
to assure that the employees they hire are basically competent. The documented high school standards that existed circa 1900 put our current system to shame. And those that are truly gifted are easily diverted to early admission to college, which removes them from the equation.

Well Stated.

[historynut]

Unusual case is yours. I wouldn't dare stand up a parent and neither would any of my collegues.

It wasn't only me it happened to either. The bad part was the school would not do anything. But with every bad teacher I've know about it's the same thing, the school will not do anything and will not talk to you.
Would you like your kid in a class with a teacher that talked to people that were not there?

[blimpo]

Since when is Germany the rest of the world? Its one country. And we are slipping behind, because the purpose of high school is to prepare the student with the basic skills to enter the workforce or proceed to college. All should be prepared EQUALLY. The high school student that decides to go to votech should have the EXACT same education as the student that goes to college. What the other countries do, with their tiered system, is elitist. In America, YOU decide what you want to be and the only obstacle should be your talents and intelligence. Its not up to a bureaucrat to decide your fate at such a young age.

The problem is that the high school education has been so watered down that employers are placing unneeded requirements
to assure that the employees they hire are basically competent. The documented high school standards that existed circa 1900 put our current system to shame. And those that are truly gifted are easily diverted to early admission to college, which removes them from the equation.


The reason it is watered down IS because we don't use the elitist system other countries use.
We have kids sitting in classes listening to concepts they will never understand. Instead of having them learn something practical that might be useful in earning a living later, we have them writing essays that they can't even read.

They should have the same opportunity, but when it is discovered that another direction would be a positive we are wrong by insisting they take an academic path. All students are not college material.

Our system is unlike that of other countries. You admit that, yet still want to compare.
Their best students are compared to ours in taking standardized tests. We encourage all to take the SAT Test. The more taking it, the lower the scores.

[historynut]

The reason it is watered down IS because we don't use the elitist system other countries use.
We have kids sitting in classes listening to concepts they will never understand. Instead of having them learn something practical that might be useful in earning a living later, we have them writing essays that they can't even read.

They should have the same opportunity, but when it is discovered that another direction would be a positive we are wrong by insisting they take an academic path. All students are not college material.

Our system is unlike that of other countries. You admit that, yet still want to compare.
Their best students are compared to ours in taking standardized tests. We encourage all to take the SAT Test. The more taking it, the lower the scores.

The reason it is watered down IS because we don't use the elitist system other countries use.
You mean countries like Mexico.

[Big Drew]

Plumbers, furnace repairmen, mechanics, tow truck drivers, DJ's... shall I go on?

And their pay is commensurate with the accommodations they make for "after-hours" service. Ever call Roto-Rooter late at night? You get a right, royal rogering for after hours. Our toilet backed up in the middle of the night over Thanksgiving holiday a couple of years ago. Roto-Rooter charged us two-and-a-half times their normal rate to come unclog it. (We had to do it--only one toilet in the house w/four kids.)
Tow trucks generally charge more for late-night and weekend services. I've never had to have a furnace repairman come out "after hours", but I'm sure that the rate would be jacked up if the situation arose. I would be stunned to see mechanics stay on a car repair 24/7 until the car was fixed. They go home when the garage closes.
Bad comparison.

[Teacher4McCain]

As a school teacher myself, I can tell you this. If you make an effort to call the teacher and ask them to hang out and wait for you 99% of the will. We are like any other rational person , If you ask nicely we will accommodate you.

If the principal tells us YOU WILL, then I'm gonna have to say to the principal "$ please".

Our time with our family is just as valuable as your time is with our family.

P.S. Don't ask your kid "do you have homework???" trust me they do. Ask them to EXPLAIN to you what they did and show you. If they can explain it then they are good to go if not... get to helping your kid.

[javsterg]

hey, you are right. I'm a teacher and I should stay until all hours to be a better public servant. I think there are laws against teacher having lives out side of school. By the way, there are no real teacher unions in the state I work in. Like most teachers, I get to work at 7:30 and usually do not leave until 5:00 or so. I come in on the weekend to decorate and plan for the week. But hey, we are whats wrong with America, not bitter apathetic parents who spend no time with their child, but are more than eager to blame us for their mistakes. Maybe anyone who writes on this thread, should go to a school and volunteer for a day to get an idea of what teacher do instead of listening to the pundits on what is wrong with education and make up events in you heads to justify your views.

[historynut]

hey, you are right. I'm a teacher and I should stay until all hours to be a better public servant. I think there are laws against teacher having lives out side of school. By the way, there are no real teacher unions in the state I work in. Like most teachers, I get to work at 7:30 and usually do not leave until 5:00 or so. I come in on the weekend to decorate and plan for the week. But hey, we are whats wrong with America, not bitter apathetic parents who spend no time with their child, but are more than eager to blame us for their mistakes. Maybe anyone who writes on this thread, should go to a school and volunteer for a day to get an idea of what teacher do instead of listening to the pundits on what is wrong with education and make up events in you heads to justify your views.

How about working as a teachers aide?
Most teachers (and schools) are good the problem is that if there is a bad teacher you can do nothing about it.
Yes there are bitter apathetic parents who spend no time with their child but there is also bitter apathetic teachers who spend no time with trying to teach.
If you have a teacher that after the kids came in tells them to be quiet and do there homework from other classes while the teacher reads the newspaper there is a problem.
If a teacher tries to teach but fails to they should get more training.
If a teacher doesn't even try to teach they should lose there job.

[angelicmadrigal]

If a teacher doesn't even try to teach they should lose there job.

How about a parent that refuses to do their JOB as a parent?

[historynut]

How about a parent that refuses to do their JOB as a parent?

Parents get kids taken away from them all the time, just check with your local Child Welfare office.

About the way a teacher loses there job is if they get put in jail. Sometimes not even then.

If parents are held to account then teachers should be held to account too.

Is that too much to ask for?

If a teacher can not do there job that's one thing get them more training.

When a teacher will not do there job they should be fired.

[RWReaganfan]

About the way a teacher loses there job is if they get put in jail. Sometimes not even then.

If a teacher can not do there job that's one thing get them more training.


What about posters who need more training to know the difference between "there" and "their"?

[WorldWatcher]

Parents get kids taken away from them all the time, just check with your local Child Welfare office.


This is true.


About the way a teacher loses there job is if they get put in jail. Sometimes not even then.


False, please provide a link where a teacher was sent to jail and retained their job.

Thank you in advance.


If parents are held to account then teachers should be held to account too.

I agree.

Now could you spell out a detailed plan for exactly how that would work?


Do we ensure the teacher is using proper methodologies and creating a good atmosphere for the learning environment? Ensure they are following the approved curriculum? Ensure they are working with team mates to coordinate instructional material across the curriculum to ensure transference of learning?


Or here is another idea.


We give standardized tests at the beginning of the school year. Then everyone sits around for about a week or two will all those tests are graded and then we reorganize all classes grouping all the "A" students in one group of classes, all the "B" students in another, etc..., etc... until we get to the point where we put all the unmotivated, dumber than a box of rocks students in their own class.

Then of course there will need to be different lesson plans for each group.

Then Administrators define specific performance criteria for each an every teacher based on the classification of the students performance. Or do you think we should have only one performance standard for all teachers so that the "A" Group teacher has the same expectations then the "Box of Rocks" teacher?

Now at the end of the year we again test the students based on their classification to determine gains in learning to see if the students met expectations, thereby showing the performance of the teacher.



So how many teachers are going to want to take the "A" group and how many are going to want to take the "Box of Rocks" group? And of course how to you think parents are going to react after a couple of weeks of school when he brings home is initial evaluation testing shows he belongs in the "Box" group? Think they protest?


Oh, and how many days to you plan on taking out of the school calendar to account for this testing and reorganization of schedules? Or should we add more days to the calendar at an increased cost to the taxpayers for additional workdays, transportation, custodial, etc...?



The teacher performance is then directly tied to the scores of the students.


So, provide some details, how do you plan on accounting for variation in learning abilities of the students? How do you account for a student where English isn't their primary language? How do you account for students with parents who are working two jobs trying to make ends meet or who just don't give a ****?

Oh, I'm not even talking about Special Education students.



Is that too much to ask for?


Teacher doing their job? Not in the least.

Is it to much to ask for that parents take an active roll in the education of their children and do their part to make sure kids are in school and are doing their homework?


If a teacher can not do there job that's one thing get them more training.


I agree, I work in the Human Resources department of a school system. I see teacher's evaluated all the time by Professional Development, Curriculum Leaders, and Administrators.

Every year we have quite a few teachers placed on Improvement Plans as a result of poor evaluations and teaching methodologies. Those plans provide specific feedback and courses of action including training opportunities and expectations and mentoring to change classroom conduct.


When a teacher will not do there job they should be fired.


I whole-heartedly agree, teachers who do not do their job should be fired and we fire teachers every year for exactly that. And contrary to popular belief, "Tenure" does not provide "Protection" for those not doing their job. I work in Virginia, prior to Tenure a teacher not doing their job can be released from their contract at the end of the year, not reason need be given, just "Bye Bye". A Tenured teacher can also be fired, but according to State Code (Not Union, State Law) they have certain grievance rights to have their case reviewed. Just takes a little more effort in that the Division has to show that the individual was counseled, placed on an Improvement Plan, and failed to achieve the desired results. If the teacher improves, then there is no problem, if not, then they can be fired.


No, when can we fire parents who will not so up to school events?

No, when can we fire parents who will not check their kids homework?

No, when can we fire parents who will not ensure their kids behave in school and on the bus?

No, when can we fire students who will not put forth any effort?


>>>>

[historynut]

What about posters who need more training to know the difference between "there" and "their"?

That’s one of the things that bug me. I had 4 years of college prep English getting mostly A’s and B’s and I still have problems. Makes me wonder how good the kids not in college prep classes did.

I think you made my point. I was a good student (getting A’s & B’s) in one of the better schools in the area and there was no way I was ready to go to college without going to community college first.

[historynut]

[
This is true.
False, please provide a link where a teacher was sent to jail and retained their job.

Thank you in advance.>>>>

Teachers weigh in on tenure, evaluations

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4798444


John Stossel's 'Stupid in America'

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=2383857&page=1
Here's just one example from New York City: It took years to fire a teacher who sent sexually oriented e-mails to "Cutie 101," a 16-year-old student. Klein said, "He hasn't taught, but we have had to pay him, because that's what's required under the contract."
Only after six years of litigation were they able to fire him. In the meantime, they paid the teacher more than $300,000. Klein said he employs dozens of teachers who he's afraid to let near the kids, so he has them sit in what are called rubber rooms. This year he will spend $20 million dollars to warehouse teachers in five rubber rooms. It's an alternative to firing them. In the last four years, only two teachers out of 80,000 were fired for incompetence. Klein's office says the new contract will make it easier to get rid of sex offenders, but it will still be difficult to fire incompetent teachers.

[QUOTE]We give standardized tests at the beginning of the school year. Then everyone sits around for about a week or two will all those tests are graded and then we reorganize all classes grouping all the "A" students in one group of classes, all the "B" students in another, etc..., etc... until we get to the point where we put all the unmotivated, dumber than a box of rocks students in their own class..

Then of course there will need to be different lesson plans for each group[QUOTE]
What is wrong with that? Why try to teach the "A" students, "B" students etc the same thing? If you teach at an "B" students level the "A" students will be bored and the "C" and "D" students will not understand.

[QUOTE]Then Administrators define specific performance criteria for each an every teacher based on the classification of the students performance. Or do you think we should have only one performance standard for all teachers so that the "A" Group teacher has the same expectations then the "Box of Rocks" teacher?{QUOTE]
That would be dumb.

[QUOTE]So how many teachers are going to want to take the "A" group and how many are going to want to take the "Box of Rocks" group?[QUOTE]
They give teachers extra money to teach ESL classes maybe they can give them extra money to teach the "Box of Rocks" group.

[QUOTE]And of course how to you think parents are going to react after a couple of weeks of school when he brings home is initial evaluation testing shows he belongs in the "Box" group? Think they protest?[QUOTE]
They didn't when I went to school. Knowing your kid is in a class that they will not be bored because it is below their level or will not learn in at all because it is above their level seems to make most parents happy.

[QUOTE]Oh, and how many days to you plan on taking out of the school calendar to account for this testing and reorganization of schedules? Or should we add more days to the calendar at an increased cost to the taxpayers for additional workdays, transportation, custodial, etc...?[QUOTE]
Why would you need to add extra days? Maybe you should check how they did it in the 50's, 60's and 70's with the same number of school days.

[QUOTE]So, provide some details, how do you plan on accounting for variation in learning abilities of the students? [QUOTE]
You put students with the same learning abilities in the same class.

[QUOTE]How do you account for a student where English isn't their primary language?[QUOTE]
See above. In my 3th grade class (early 60's) we had a lot of kids from Eastern Europe. We had 17 different languages in that class. If they teach them then why can't they teach them now?

[QUOTE] How do you account for students with parents who are working two jobs trying to make ends meet or who just don't give a ****?[QUOTE]
See above. Most of the kids in my 3th grade class had parents Working two jobs trying to make ends meet. If they teach them then why can't they teach them now?

[QUOTE]Is it to much to ask for that parents take an active roll in the education of their children and do their part to make sure kids are in school and are doing their homework?[QUOTE]
The only parents trying to replace a teacher would be the ones takeing an active roll in the education of their children because the others would not give a d___.

[QUOTE]I whole-heartedly agree, teachers who do not do their job should be fired and we fire teachers every year for exactly that. And contrary to popular belief, "Tenure" does not provide "Protection" for those not doing their job. I work in Virginia, prior to Tenure a teacher not doing their job can be released from their contract at the end of the year, not reason need be given, just "Bye Bye". A Tenured teacher can also be fired, but according to State Code (Not Union, State Law) they have certain grievance rights to have their case reviewed. Just takes a little more effort in that the Division has to show that the individual was counseled, placed on an Improvement Plan, and failed to achieve the desired results. If the teacher improves, then there is no problem, if not, then they can be fired. [QUOTE]
When you said "I work in Virginia" I think that explains a lot. I went to school in California and my kids went to school in California. I have known of a number of bad teachers. The worst that has ever happen was a teacher given a few weeks off after passing out in class.

[QUOTE]No, when can we fire parents who will not so up to school events?

No, when can we fire parents who will not check their kids homework?

No, when can we fire parents who will not ensure their kids behave in school and on the bus?

No, when can we fire students who will not put forth any effort?[QUOTE]
You can't but is that any reason give kids that do try bad teachers?

So is it ok for a teacher not to teach the kids that trying because some kids are not trying?

[WorldWatcher]

So is it ok for a teacher not to teach the kids that trying because some kids are not trying?


No, your point seems to be that even though a teacher is teaching and the STUDENT isn't putting forth the effort that the teacher is responsible for that not the students and not the parents. Which is a pretty liberal position, that being blame someone else.



BTW - I went to school in the 60's and 70's and there was no testing to group students in the Elementary, Middle, or High schools I attended. The only standardized tests were the SAT/ACT in the Junior or Senior years and the ASVAB (typically in the Junior year). Adding more testing days does one of two things: (a) either you add days (and cost) or you take days away from instruction for testing.


>>>>

[angelicmadrigal]

About the way a teacher loses there job is if they get put in jail. Sometimes not even then.

Not true, I know a handful of teachers personally that lost thier jobs for conduct issues. One lost his lisence entirely, and no he NEVER went to jail.


Is that too much to ask for?
Is it too much to ask parents to give a damn about thier kids? Evidently it is for some parents.


If a teacher can not do there job that's one thing get them more training.

I'd bet money the percentage of teachers that get fired is higher than the people that lose their children to the state.

Actually I HAVE checkd with my state hell I've CALLED CPS before, I've also taken several courses on how the system works. It is very difficult (unless there is obvious and GROSS abuse going on) to get children removed fromt he home.

[Shella_Bella1966]

Their are good teachers, and bad. I think Teachers should have to go through "Psychiatric testing". Some just are not psychologically suited to be teaching to begin with, and the school system tends to protect them at your childs expense. When you have a Kindergarten Teacher who says "What now" every time a child asks a question, are they really suited to be teaching Kindergarten? When you have high school students going in helping these children, and also say "Man, that Teacher is hateful, and snotty to those little kids", and yet, the principal just moves those high school students to another class room to help out, and does not deal with the problem. To many teachers get by with to much. I've seen it to many times, in to many schools.

[pubschteacher]

Their are good teachers, and bad. I think Teachers should have to go through "Psychiatric testing". Some just are not psychologically suited to be teaching to begin with, and the school system tends to protect them at your childs expense. When you have a Kindergarten Teacher who says "What now" every time a child asks a question, are they really suited to be teaching Kindergarten? When you have high school students going in helping these children, and also say "Man, that Teacher is hateful, and snotty to those little kids", and yet, the principal just moves those high school students to another class room to help out, and does not deal with the problem. To many teachers get by with to much. I've seen it to many times, in to many schools.

3.2 million of us and you have "seen it many times". Certainly you see how miniscule your sample is and that it carries virtually no weight as actual evidence, except in your very small slice of the education system.

[historynut]

No, your point seems to be that even though a teacher is teaching and the STUDENT isn't putting forth the effort that the teacher is responsible for that not the students and not the parents. Which is a pretty liberal position, that being blame someone else.



BTW - I went to school in the 60's and 70's and there was no testing to group students in the Elementary, Middle, or High schools I attended. The only standardized tests were the SAT/ACT in the Junior or Senior years and the ASVAB (typically in the Junior year). Adding more testing days does one of two things: (a) either you add days (and cost) or you take days away from instruction for testing.


>>>>

No, your point seems to be that even though a teacher is teaching and the STUDENT isn't putting forth the effort that the teacher is responsible for that not the students and not the parents.

If the STUDENT isn't putting forth the effort that the teacher is not responsible.

But if the STUDENT is putting forth the effort then the teacher is responsible.

My point is easy to understand. If you have students willing and able to learn they should at the medium have a teacher willing to try to teach them.

What is wrong with asking a teacher to teach kids willing to learn?

Why should a kid willing to learn have a teacher unwilling to teach?
Notice I am not saying a teacher that is trying to teach and failing, I'm saying a teacher that does not try at all.

Yes the "D" students will not learn as much as the "A" students but if they are willing to learn they should a teacher willing to teach.

[budjaz]

a myth, really? The last average salary i could readily find was $47k from 2005. I know a lot of other college graduates that don't make that much and work year around. Most folks are tired of hearing teachers whine about how little they get paid and have 2 months off with pay. Oh, you do continuing education during that time you say. I'm an engineer, you think i don't have to keep up my education, plus work well over 40 hours a week, year around? Sorry, i'm not impressed. The national data shows what a crappy job is being done educating our kids. Maybe we don't believe that you are working as hard as you say anymore. I would never be able to keep my job if i turned out the crap product that you folks are producing.

awesome =)

[WorldWatcher]

If the STUDENT isn't putting forth the effort that the teacher is not responsible.


Good, I agree.


But if the STUDENT is putting forth the effort then the teacher is responsible.


Good, I agree again.


*************************************************

So we now understand each other, if the teacher is teaching the material and creating a good learning environment and the students DON’T want to learn the material, then the problem isn’t the teacher, the problem is the students willingness to learn.

Yet you say you want teachers to be evaluated based on student scores, now how to you plan on differentiating between those students who want to learn, have parents who care about their education and ensure they go to class and do their homework and the other side of the coin - those not doing the work and where schools are not supported at home?

If the teacher is doing their job and it’s the students and parents not doing theirs, why penalize the teachers?

*************************************************

My point is easy to understand. If you have students willing and able to learn they should at the medium have a teacher willing to try to teach them.


Of course. I don’t disagree. If a teacher is not doing their job, boot them to the curb and hire a replacement teacher to take their place.

We do this every year.


What is wrong with asking a teacher to teach kids willing to learn?

Not a thing.

The problem seems to be you want to penalize teachers who do a good job teaching but yet have students who don’t want to do their work and who have parents who think their lazy child is above reproach and therefore don’t want to support the schools when they get told little Johnny is failing Freshman English or Algebra.


Why should a kid willing to learn have a teacher unwilling to teach?


Why should a teacher willing to teach be penalized for students who are unwilling to learn and parents that don’t support the school at home?


Notice I am not saying a teacher that is trying to teach and failing, I'm saying a teacher that does not try at all.


I teacher that is not trying to teach at all should be fired immediately. After observations and evaluations of teachers we routinely do not renew their contract for the next year because they have failed in the classroom.


Yes the "D" students will not learn as much as the "A" students but if they are willing to learn they should a teacher willing to teach.


I agree, and if the teacher is willing to teach and does teach, and the student is unwilling to learn then the student (and commonly lack of support from the parents) are the issue not the teacher.

If you have a classroom of 25 students and 19 of them are learning the material, doing their homework, and scoring well on both teacher curriculum tests and state mandated standardized tests at the end of the year and you have 6 with failing grades does that indicate the teacher is not teaching the material only to the 19 who got it and is not teaching the same material to the 6 who failed?


************************************************** *


Again you seem to approach this as assuming Teachers are unwilling and are not teaching. You seem to want to paint with a very wide brush-stroke and assume that it is all the teachers fault if "Johnny" doesn't pass biology. I disagree, there are two people involved with the learning process and each must do their part: Teachers must teach and Students must learn.

If grading results for an entire class show the teacher has failed to teach, then that must be identified and corrected. However if, in general, most of the students are mastering the material and a handful are not, and the teacher is observed and evaluated to be teaching the proper curriculum using established instructional strategies, then is the problem the teacher or is it the student?


>>>>

[jimjames418]

3.2 million of us and you have "seen it many times". Certainly you see how miniscule your sample is and that it carries virtually no weight as actual evidence, except in your very small slice of the education system.
Small slices add up to big chunks after a while. This must be about the 1,000th time you have said this line about no evidence. It gets old after a while. :think:

[angelicmadrigal]

Their are good teachers, and bad. I think Teachers should have to go through "Psychiatric testing".
If that's true, than parents should too.

[Shella_Bella1966]

The school system needs to work with working parents. in this day in age, it takes 2 people working to make a liveing. And the reason I say Teachers should be held accountable for yelling, screaming and carrying on is this: I work in a psychiatric facility. We get hit, kicked, bit, spit on, chairs thrown at us, and as frustrating as that is, I do not raise my voice, or be dis - respectful to anyone. If I cannot handle my job, I need to find another one. I like my job, it can be very rewarding, and I wouldn't be there if I didn't want to help others. And that should be the reason Teachers go into teaching. Their needs to be more accountability. Afterall, our children are our future!

[angelicmadrigal]

. Afterall, our children are our future!

I would agree, but to say teacher's don't work with working parents is LUDICROUS.

I know the school I teach at accomodates the parents to the BEST OF OUR ABILITY. Our after and before school/after school (as well as our nursury daycare) care starts at 6:45am and goes to 5:30pm. (school day runs from 8:30-11:30 and 12:30-3:30) I DO NOT think that is unreasonable at all to expect a child to be picked up by 5:30. I've had kids get piked up as late as 6:00pm, usually on a Friday so mom and dad can go get a drink/relax after work...or stay late and get more work done. Then they wonder why their little darling has BEHAVIOR issues, oh I don't maybe it's leaving them for 9+ hours a day since they were 6 weeks old.

[angelicmadrigal]

And the reason I say Teachers should be held accountable for yelling, screaming and carrying on is this: I work in a psychiatric facility. We get hit, kicked, bit, spit on, chairs thrown at us, and as frustrating as that is, I do not raise my voice, or be dis - respectful to anyone.

In a psychiatric facility you have the luxury of knowing those people are not in their right minds when they behave that way. Teachers know full well when a child does something maliciously, and KNOWINGLY. I am not above raising my voice to be heard over 15 children, I am not above laying down the law and holding children accountable for their misbehavior. My kids know my classroom can be a fun and loving environment, but they also know there will be order in my classroom. Hence why I only have two or three " problem" children, and those children are that way because their parents let them do what they wish to do, or haven't taught them any self discipline.

[Shella_Bella1966]

Then your school is VERY lucky. Ours do not offer after school ANYTHING. At 3:00 p.m. it is our responsability to to have child care. And as for Those in a mental facility not knowing what they are doing...your so WRONG about that. But still, it is my job to be respectful. And as a parent, I do NOT yell at my children and do NOT expect anyone else to either.

[angelicmadrigal]

Then your school is VERY lucky.
We offer it as a perk, it should NOT ever be mandatory or expected.

And as a parent, I do NOT yell at my children and do NOT expect anyone else to either.
Then perhaps you should look into teaching your child, yourself if you are so concerned. I'm sorry, but in classrooms there is yelling, whether it's a child simply NOT getting the poitn hsi behavior is unacceptable (after MULTIPLE warnings) or if it's to be heard. It happens. As a parent you can either complain or may even have to pull your kid from the school if you can't handle that.

[Shella_Bella1966]

Yelling does NOT make someone learn any better. it simply shows a child the WRONG way to handle situations and deal with frustration. If my children do something wrong, they are guided to make it right, and it does work. I do not even have to spank my children because they don't want me upset with them. And I ALWAYS explain to them why they are in trouble, and ask them if they understand the punishment. i had a teacher one time tell me they would like to see me teach their class that was a little rowdy< I accepted her challenge< and she was amazed that my methods worked> the next year she decided to teach a higher grade> we ended up becoming very good friends

[pubschteacher]

Small slices add up to big chunks after a while. This must be about the 1,000th time you have said this line about no evidence. It gets old after a while. :think:

And as soon as I see some reasonably big chunks on something specific, I will quit pointing out the obvious, which is that most of the outrage expressed in here is from anecdotal evidence and...well you know. :-)

[jimjames418]

And as soon as I see some reasonably big chunks on something specific, I will quit pointing out the obvious, which is that most of the outrage expressed in here is from anecdotal evidence and...well you know. :-)
Well I could say that a study should be done to determine the extent of the problem.

The only thing wrong with that is that members of the educational community are the ones who do the studing, so no matter what they come up with, many people will not be happy and will complain of bias. ;)

There is a problem. What the solution is I have no idea. I would like to see the educational community discuss this issue and attempt to come up with method of dealing with it. :think:

[angelicmadrigal]

Yelling does NOT make someone learn any better. it simply shows a child the WRONG way to handle situations and deal with frustration.
Some kids that's what it takes to make what you say stick in their brain. I'm not talking learning your ABCs here, I'm talking learning that they can NOT do certain things, or unlearning certain behavioral problems.

If my children do something wrong, they are guided to make it right, and it does work.

Not on every child it doesn't. Some kids you can correct them for the same behavior repeatedly and they just do what they want. You're comments simply proove to me you are ignorant about children in general. While you may know what works for YOUR children, you do not understand the simple truth that EVERY child is different, and every child responds to something. Some kids, the ONLY thing they respond to is yelling, for various reasons. Children that tend to come from VERY noisey, chaotic homes, generally have issues hearing a normal tone of voice. Some children, are just so poorly disiciplined they will do what they want until you force consequences on them.


I do not even have to spank my children because they don't want me upset with them.
Some children respond to that, some do not. Some children could give two ****s less if you're angry/upset with them. Some kids even LIKE disapproval.


And I ALWAYS explain to them why they are in trouble, and ask them if they understand the punishment.
Some kids you'll find will TELL you they understand, even repeat it back to you and then 2 minutes later they're back to doing the same thing. Again, does NOT work for EVERY child.


i had a teacher one time tell me they would like to see me teach their class that was a little rowdy< I accepted her challenge< and she was amazed that my methods worked> the next year she decided to teach a higher grade> we ended up becoming very good friends
Yeah right, excuse me if I disbelieve your claim. Kids are funny, if you're a stranger (i.e. not the regular teacher) they'll go out of there way to be nice to you (or the flip side be EXTRA bad), until they get used to you. If you were such a wonderful teacher as you claim, maybe you'd be int hat line of work, but you're not. Again, I do't htink you understand enough about children to cut it as a teacher for YEARS. Because, eventually you'll get a class that your "methods" don't work on.

In my class I normally don't have to yell, but I have 3 little boys who seem to think the rules do NOT apply to them, that they are somehow above the rules. I do NOT tolerate that at all, and frankly the one kid is so poorly behaved he's in time out quite often. Thankfully I have 1 or 2 other teachers in my classroom with me so I can afford to spend 70% of my energy on keeping order so that the other children can do their work in peace.

Because regardless of what you might think some kids ahve no respect for authority, property, etc....and regardless of the role you think teachers might play...THOSE issues come from their PARENTS. Parents who think their little darlings are above reproach, parents who what I would consider abandon their children for 9+ hours, Parents that pretend to care soooo much about the child's behvaior, yet make excuses at EVERY turn. See, the big problem with students that do poorly in schools/hav ebehavioral problems is the parents, not the teachers. I'd say in most cases.

[historynut]

[QUOTE=WorldWatcher;49062411]

*************************************************

So we now understand each other, if the teacher is teaching the material and creating a good learning environment and the students DON’T want to learn the material, then the problem isn’t the teacher, the problem is the students willingness to learn.

Yet you say you want teachers to be evaluated based on student scores, now how to you plan on differentiating between those students who want to learn, have parents who care about their education and ensure they go to class and do their homework and the other side of the coin - those not doing the work and where schools are not supported at home?[QUOTE]

You do it like when I went to school, you sort the kids based on how good they do. If the "A" students start getting "F"s there is a problem

[QUOTE]If the teacher is doing their job and it’s the students and parents not doing theirs, why penalize the teachers?[QUOTE]

You don't.


[QUOTE]Of course. I don’t disagree. If a teacher is not doing their job, boot them to the curb and hire a replacement teacher to take their place.
We do this every year.
[QUOTE]

I have never seen it happen and don't know anyone that has seen it happen



[QUOTE]The problem seems to be you want to penalize teachers who do a good job teaching but yet have students who don’t want to do their work and who have parents who think their lazy child is above reproach and therefore don’t want to support the schools when they get told little Johnny is failing Freshman English or Algebra. [QUOTE]

I do not want to penalize teachers.


[QUOTE]Why should a teacher willing to teach be penalized for students who are unwilling to learn and parents that don’t support the school at home?[QUOTE]

They shouldn't be.

[QUOTE]I agree, and if the teacher is willing to teach and does teach, and the student is unwilling to learn then the student (and commonly lack of support from the parents) are the issue not the teacher.

If you have a classroom of 25 students and 19 of them are learning the material, doing their homework, and scoring well on both teacher curriculum tests and state mandated standardized tests at the end of the year and you have 6 with failing grades does that indicate the teacher is not teaching the material only to the 19 who got it and is not teaching the same material to the 6 who failed?[QUOTE]

No then likely it is the students to blame.


[QUOTE]Again you seem to approach this as assuming Teachers are unwilling and are not teaching. You seem to want to paint with a very wide brush-stroke and assume that it is all the teachers fault if "Johnny" doesn't pass biology. I disagree, there are two people involved with the learning process and each must do their part: Teachers must teach and Students must learn.[QUOTE]

Correct

[QUOTE]If grading results for an entire class show the teacher has failed to teach, then that must be identified and corrected. However if, in general, most of the students are mastering the material and a handful are not, and the teacher is observed and evaluated to be teaching the proper curriculum using established instructional strategies, then is the problem the teacher or is it the student?[QUOTE]

Then it is the student.

But if the teacher is observed to be passed out in class then the problem is the teacher.

But if the teacher is observed to be talking to people that are not there and students are told to call the office if he starts yelling or falls to the floor then the problem is the teacher.

But if the teacher is observed to be just sitting there reading the paper every day and not teaching then the problem is the teacher.

But if the teacher is observed to be not teaching some kids based on the color of there skin (the teacher said it was because they were an abomination in the eyes of the lord) then the problem is the teacher.

The problem is the teacher, the school that will do nothing about them and the teachers union that says teachers can do no wrong.

[WorldWatcher]

If the teacher is doing their job and it’s the students and parents not doing theirs, why penalize the teachers?

You don't.


But, if teacher performance is only evaluated based on student scores, that is exactly what you are doing.

Of course. I don’t disagree. If a teacher is not doing their job, boot them to the curb and hire a replacement teacher to take their place.
We do this every year.


I have never seen it happen and don't know anyone that has seen it happen


I work in the Human Resources Office of a school district and I have seen it happen.


The problem seems to be you want to penalize teachers who do a good job teaching but yet have students who don’t want to do their work and who have parents who think their lazy child is above reproach and therefore don’t want to support the schools when they get told little Johnny is failing Freshman English or Algebra.

I do not want to penalize teachers.


I do, I want those who aren’t doing their job to find other employment. Those that are doing their jobs should should be retained.


But if the teacher is observed to be passed out in class then the problem is the teacher.

But if the teacher is observed to be talking to people that are not there and students are told to call the office if he starts yelling or falls to the floor then the problem is the teacher.

But if the teacher is observed to be just sitting there reading the paper every day and not teaching then the problem is the teacher.

But if the teacher is observed to be not teaching some kids based on the color of there skin (the teacher said it was because they were an abomination in the eyes of the lord) then the problem is the teacher.

Nice “But Ifs”.

Coming to school drunk, mental incapacitation, dereliction of duty, and racism are all reasons for “Termination for Cause”.


The problem is the teacher, the school that will do nothing about them and the teachers union that says teachers can do no wrong.


I know of no Union protections that allow a teacher to come to school drunk, as a matter of fact we had a case just last year regarding a “fitness for duty” evaluation and the teacher was immediately placed on “Leave Without Pay” for the period of the investigation, that status was changed a couple of days later to “Terminated”.

Every Teacher Contract I’ve written (I write over 2000 contracts per year) contains a “Termination for Cause” clause.

A non-Tenured teacher can be terminated immediately, “Tenure” only really gives them rights to submit a grievance and have the case reviewed. BTW – that is State Law (Virginia) and has nothing to do with Unions. Drunk on duty, mental incapacitation, dereliction of duty, and racism are all reasons for “Termination for Cause” and as such even the grievance process (while they are Leave WITHOUT Pay) is a formality. Well to be honest the “Mental Incapacitation” example might result in a medial retirement, but the result is still the same, the teacher is removed from the classroom.


>>>>

[angelicmadrigal]

But if the teacher is observed to be talking to people that are not there and students are told to call the office if he starts yelling or falls to the floor then the problem is the teacher.
So....you want to exclude someone from a job because they may have a disability? For the record, I have narcolepsy, there is ALWAYS the chance I may have a narcoleptic episode at ANY job I work at....are you saying I shouldn't have a job (even though I have had no narcoleptic episodes at work the WHOLE year and half I've been teaching)?

In my opinion if the teacher is NOT a danger to the children it is not a problem. If their condition is under control 90% of the time and they are deemed fit to work, it's not a problem.



But if the teacher is observed to be just sitting there reading the paper every day and not teaching then the problem is the teacher.
That's called study hall.

[historynut]

So....you want to exclude someone from a job because they may have a disability? For the record, I have narcolepsy, there is ALWAYS the chance I may have a narcoleptic episode at ANY job I work at....are you saying I shouldn't have a job (even though I have had no narcoleptic episodes at work the WHOLE year and half I've been teaching)?

In my opinion if the teacher is NOT a danger to the children it is not a problem. If their condition is under control 90% of the time and they are deemed fit to work, it's not a problem.

As long as theacher is able to teach there is no problem. If the teacher is unable to teach there is a problem.



That's called study hall.

The name of the class was "Advanced Math" which had to be passed if you wanted a college scholarship.

[historynut]

But, if teacher performance is only evaluated based on student scores, that is exactly what you are doing.

I work in the Human Resources Office of a school district and I have seen it happen.

I do, I want those who aren’t doing their job to find other employment. Those that are doing their jobs should should be retained.

Nice “But Ifs”.

Coming to school drunk, mental incapacitation, dereliction of duty, and racism are all reasons for “Termination for Cause”.


I know of no Union protections that allow a teacher to come to school drunk, as a matter of fact we had a case just last year regarding a “fitness for duty” evaluation and the teacher was immediately placed on “Leave Without Pay” for the period of the investigation, that status was changed a couple of days later to “Terminated”.

Every Teacher Contract I’ve written (I write over 2000 contracts per year) contains a “Termination for Cause” clause.

A non-Tenured teacher can be terminated immediately, “Tenure” only really gives them rights to submit a grievance and have the case reviewed. BTW – that is State Law (Virginia) and has nothing to do with Unions. Drunk on duty, mental incapacitation, dereliction of duty, and racism are all reasons for “Termination for Cause” and as such even the grievance process (while they are Leave WITHOUT Pay) is a formality. Well to be honest the “Mental Incapacitation” example might result in a medial retirement, but the result is still the same, the teacher is removed from the classroom.


>>>>

But, if teacher performance is only evaluated based on student scores, that is exactly what you are doing.

What good is it if the teacher does good on everything else if they can't teach the kids.

I work in the Human Resources Office of a school district and I have seen it happen.

Good

I do, I want those who aren’t doing their job to find other employment. Those that are doing their jobs should should be retained.

Right

Coming to school drunk, mental incapacitation, dereliction of duty, and racism are all reasons for “Termination for Cause”.


I know of no Union protections that allow a teacher to come to school drunk, as a matter of fact we had a case just last year regarding a “fitness for duty” evaluation and the teacher was immediately placed on “Leave Without Pay” for the period of the investigation, that status was changed a couple of days later to “Terminated”.

Every Teacher Contract I’ve written (I write over 2000 contracts per year) contains a “Termination for Cause” clause.

A non-Tenured teacher can be terminated immediately, “Tenure” only really gives them rights to submit a grievance and have the case reviewed. BTW – that is State Law (Virginia) and has nothing to do with Unions. Drunk on duty, mental incapacitation, dereliction of duty, and racism are all reasons for “Termination for Cause” and as such even the grievance process (while they are Leave WITHOUT Pay) is a formality. Well to be honest the “Mental Incapacitation” example might result in a medial retirement, but the result is still the same, the teacher is removed from the classroom.

The "But if's" were real teachers.

My sister is a teacher in Ohio and they do fire teachers there too.

My problem is I live in California where teachers almost never get fired.

I do understand you the "But if's" were not to blame it was the parents and kids to blame.

[WorldWatcher]

But, if teacher performance is only evaluated based on student scores, that is exactly what you are doing.

What good is it if the teacher does good on everything else if they can't teach the kids.


Which goes back to if the teacher is following the curriculum, using good methodologies, and creating a positive learning environment so **IS** teaching the kids, but the kids don't learn...

Is the problem the teacher not teaching?

or Is the problem the student not learning?


Gaging teacher performance strictly on student scores is a measure of student learning, it does not necessarily mean the teacher is not teaching.


The "But if's" were real teachers.


Given that there are about 3.8 Million Teachers in Public Schools (LINK (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/001737.html)) I could probably find one that likes to dress like a Pirate and says "Arrg Matey" also.

Take any population of almost 4 million people and sure you are going to find **** ups. Does that mean they are all to be painted with a wide brush stroke?

If so does that mean that all Christians should be painted with the same wide-strokes based on the antics of Phelps and his group at the Westboro Church?


My sister is a teacher in Ohio and they do fire teachers there too.


Good for her.


My problem is I live in California where teachers almost never get fired.


So your broad claims about teachers are really a regional issue. As you've already stated they can be fired in Ohio, and I know they can be fired in Viriginia (and BTW we have one of the lowest drop out rates around).


I do understand you the "But if's" were not to blame it was the parents and kids to blame.


I don't mind your "But if's" really, in any of those situations the teacher no longer belongs in the classroom, no disagreement there.

My issue was your previous broad statements making it appear to be widespread. It is not. Most teachers are hard working, tax paying, moral citizens who are trying to do the best for themselves, their family, and our children. The difference is that I recognize that there are a few bad apples and we need to structure the system so they are no longer responsible for educating out children, a problem with the system (in your case) that needs to be corrected. Bad mouthing teachers in general does not solve your regional problem.



>>>>

[historynut]

Which goes back to if the teacher is following the curriculum, using good methodologies, and creating a positive learning environment so **IS** teaching the kids, but the kids don't learn...

Is the problem the teacher not teaching?

or Is the problem the student not learning?>>>>

if the teacher is following the curriculum, using good methodologies, and creating a positive learning environment the teacher **IS** teaching the kids.

If some kids do not learn it is the kid. If none of the kids learn it may be the teacher.

If you have kids that learn in other classes but do not learn in one teacher’s class you need to look at that teacher. It doesn’t matter if the teacher follows the curriculum, uses good methodologies etc. if the kids do not learn.

Gaging teacher performance strictly on student scores is a measure of student learning, it does not necessarily mean the teacher is not teaching.

But if the kids can take the same class under a different teacher and they learn under a different teacher then the one teacher may be the problem.

Given that there are about 3.8 Million Teachers in Public Schools (LINK (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/001737.html)) I could probably find one that likes to dress like a Pirate and says "Arrg Matey" also.

Take any population of almost 4 million people and sure you are going to find **** ups. Does that mean they are all to be painted with a wide brush stroke?

I did point out that most of the teachers I know are good.

If so does that mean that all Christians should be painted with the same wide-strokes based on the antics of Phelps and his group at the Westboro Church?

I am not saying all teachers are the same, I’m saying that where I live it seems to be impossible to anything about the bad ones.

So we should keep the bad teachers because all the others are good teachers?

So your broad claims about teachers are really a regional issue. As you've already stated they can be fired in Ohio, and I know they can be fired in Viriginia (and BTW we have one of the lowest drop out rates around).

That’s what I have been saying. I have never said the teachers in Viriginia were bad. I have never been in Viriginia so I do not know. The teachers I know are in California so they are the ones I know about. I said that of all the bad teachers I know of it was not possible to do anything about any of them. Yes there may be some bad ones in California that did get fired. I have been with groups of parents meeting with the school about a bad teacher more then once and the schools will not do anything.



California has one have the highest drop out rates around.
But after reading what you have to say the parents and kids are to blame because there is no such thing as a bad teacher, correct. Just bad parents and kids.

[lawandorder]

Right on Angel. I used to be a psychiatric nurse. I am now a teacher. While my psych experience does help me understand, to some extent, our problem kids, I am amazed on a daily basis what they are capable of doing. I teach in a middle school, urban. There are days when I feel lucky to have made it out alive, or in one piece. The general public has no clue what goes on in these schools. Shelia sounds almost too perfect to me. Yelling, screaming, and even at times, swearing, goes on in classrooms. Personally, I wear a whistle and I use it. There probably are some "bad" teachers, but a lot of teachers are just burned out. It's a constant struggle in the classroom. There is teaching, IEP's, which take forever and many have to be done on the treachers own time. It's not like when I was in school, where the teacher walks into the classroom, everyone gets to their seats, and quiet. Oh no, not like that at all!! These kids will tell you in a heartbeat to f------- off, you are a b-------, and there is nothing teachers can do about it. Write them up? Yeah, we can and do. They spend a day in ISS and then come back and repeat the same behavior. I stay at my job because it is a great challenge. However, teaching, these days, is not for everyone. I hear a lot of complaining on this forum about teachers. The way schools are today, I think folks need to be more appreciative of the teachers. The system isn't perfect, the teachers aren't perfect and neither are those complaining about us. Teachers today deserve combat pay. Walk a day in my shoes.

[historynut]

Right on Angel. I used to be a psychiatric nurse. I am now a teacher. While my psych experience does help me understand, to some extent, our problem kids, I am amazed on a daily basis what they are capable of doing. I teach in a middle school, urban. There are days when I feel lucky to have made it out alive, or in one piece. The general public has no clue what goes on in these schools. Shelia sounds almost too perfect to me. Yelling, screaming, and even at times, swearing, goes on in classrooms. Personally, I wear a whistle and I use it. There probably are some "bad" teachers, but a lot of teachers are just burned out. It's a constant struggle in the classroom. There is teaching, IEP's, which take forever and many have to be done on the treachers own time. It's not like when I was in school, where the teacher walks into the classroom, everyone gets to their seats, and quiet. Oh no, not like that at all!! These kids will tell you in a heartbeat to f------- off, you are a b-------, and there is nothing teachers can do about it. Write them up? Yeah, we can and do. They spend a day in ISS and then come back and repeat the same behavior. I stay at my job because it is a great challenge. However, teaching, these days, is not for everyone. I hear a lot of complaining on this forum about teachers. The way schools are today, I think folks need to be more appreciative of the teachers. The system isn't perfect, the teachers aren't perfect and neither are those complaining about us. Teachers today deserve combat pay. Walk a day in my shoes.

Both my sister and my wife have "Walked a day in your shoes" so I have some idea what you go though.

My problem is that if I complain about a very few bad teachers people get after me because I'm saying all teachers are bad.

Most teachers are good.

My question is if there is a bad teacher and the school will not or can not do anything about them what can the parents do?

A lot of parents do not have the money to move or send there kids to private school.

If you do not have the money to move or send the kids to private school it is not likely you will have the money to do a lawsuit either.
Most lawyer ask $7,000 to $10,000 to start the lawsuit.

It seems to be ok to say there are bad parents and bad kids but wrong to say there are bad teachers.

If kids that get A's and B's in all the other classes they take are doing bad in one class it could be the teacher.

[WorldWatcher]

if the teacher is following the curriculum, using good methodologies, and creating a positive learning environment the teacher **IS** teaching the kids.

I agree.

If some kids do not learn it is the kid. If none of the kids learn it may be the teacher.

I agree.

If you have kids that learn in other classes but do not learn in one teacher’s class you need to look at that teacher.

Maybe.

If a kid is performing in science class because they enjoy science, but failing history because they can’t stand history and are putting forth no effort, why is it the fault of the History Teacher if the student isn’t doing the work. (Especially if other students are doing just fine.)


It doesn’t matter if the teacher follows the curriculum, uses good methodologies etc. if the kids do not learn.

But you said above that the teacher **IS** teaching if they do the things you mentioned.

If some of the kids learn and others don’t, why again is that the teachers fault if they are not putting for the effort?


But if the kids can take the same class under a different teacher and they learn under a different teacher then the one teacher may be the problem.

I agree, typically this will manifest itself by a large number of students all having difficulty in the same class.

However, you do realize that students normally don’t take the same class from two different teachers right? Why would someone take Freshman English with Ms. Smith and then take Freshman English in a different period with Mr. Jones?


I did point out that most of the teachers I know are good.


Good.



I am not saying all teachers are the same, I’m saying that where I live it seems to be impossible to anything about the bad ones.

Then ya’ll have a political problem out there on the left coast.


So we should keep the bad teachers because all the others are good teachers?

Not in the least, I’ve repeatedly said to identify the bad teachers and assist them in seeking employment in another career field. Voluntary suggestions are nice, but through firing if necessary.


That’s what I have been saying. I have never said the teachers in Viriginia were bad. I have never been in Viriginia so I do not know. The teachers I know are in California so they are the ones I know about. I said that of all the bad teachers I know of it was not possible to do anything about any of them. Yes there may be some bad ones in California that did get fired. I have been with groups of parents meeting with the school about a bad teacher more then once and the schools will not do anything.


Then you should move out here. Sorry to hear things are so rough out there. My wifes’ from Pacifica CA, seems like a nice place to visit.


California has one have the highest drop out rates around.

You also have one of the highest illegal alien populations in the country, and I do believe (looking at the larger urban areas) there is quite the gang problem. Both of which, IMHO, contribute to that drop-out rate.


But after reading what you have to say the parents and kids are to blame because there is no such thing as a bad teacher, correct. Just bad parents and kids.

Please show me where I’ve said there is no such thing as a “bad teacher”. I’ll wait…

… Still Waiting…

…………..Still Waiting…

…………………Come on, just a post number will do?



Oh wait, I never said that.



What I’ve said over and over again is that bad teachers should be removed from the classroom and their employment ended. What I have said is that your original basis of judging teacher performance strictly on test scores in an unreasonable position due to a variety of factors, two of which are (a) not all students are the same, (b) the level of parent involvement and focus on education, and (c) the readiness of incoming students based on the results of prior classes. OK, actually that is three, (C) is a new one but the basis is that if a student is unprepared for the class at hand, then they are not going to do well with new material. For example, a student that has not mastered algebra is not likely to do well in a calculus class. So if the student does not do well, is that the teachers fault or the Guidance Counselors for letting them enroll in a class they were not prepared for?



>>>>

[WorldWatcher]

Both my sister and my wife have "Walked a day in your shoes" so I have some idea what you go though.

My problem is that if I complain about a very few bad teachers people get after me because I'm saying all teachers are bad.

Most teachers are good.

My question is if there is a bad teacher and the school will not or can not do anything about them what can the parents do?


1. Address the issues with the teacher.

2. Address the issues with the Principal. Ask the Principal to review the performance of that teachers students against their peers. If the students in the class where you have issues are doing fine and it's only your student that's having problems. Then...3A. If a large number of other students in the class are all having problems. Then...3B.

3A. Take responsibility as the parent and fix things at home.

3B. The Principal should then investigate and find out what is wrong with the teacher.

4. If the problem is specific to a certain subject, address the issues with the Curriculum Leader for that area.

5. If the issues are not resolved, then for a group of parents into an action committee and meet as a group with the Principal. When it's one parent they may not take you seriously, when it's a group of parents, their eyes get opened.

6. If the Principal will not perform the needed observation and take steps to correct the matter. Then the Parents Group should arrange a meeting with the appropriate Director for that section of instruction (Elem, Mid, or High) and explain: (a) the situtation, and (b) the steps the group has taken to resolve the issue with the building Principal. Believe me, Principals do not like being called into the Directors Office and asked to explain why no action was taken.

7. If the Director will not take action. Then the Parents Group should arrange a meeting with the Division Superintendent and explain: (a) the situation, and (b) the steps the group has taken to resolve the issue with the building Principal. Believe me, Principals like even less to be called into the Superintendent and asked to explain why no action was taken.

8. If the Superintendent does not resolve the situation, then start contacting members of the School Board and arrange to speak at a public forum. Make sure the press is invited to attend.


If your concerns are valid, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Complaining on an internet board will not fix the problem, you have to learn and work the system.


If you do not have the money to move or send the kids to private school it is not likely you will have the money to do a lawsuit either.
Most lawyer ask $7,000 to $10,000 to start the lawsuit.


None of the steps listed above require a lawyer.


It seems to be ok to say there are bad parents and bad kids but wrong to say there are bad teachers.


I think it OK to say there are bad teachers.


If kids that get A's and B's in all the other classes they take are doing bad in one class it could be the teacher.


If you are talking about an entire class, it could be.

If it's a handful, it could be the students.



>>>>

[angelicmadrigal]

It seems to be ok to say there are bad parents and bad kids but wrong to say there are bad teachers.


::snickers:: that's a laugh, you even insinuate with most parents thier the problem, or their child is the problem and watch what happens.

[historynut]

If a kid is performing in science class because they enjoy science, but failing history because they can’t stand history and are putting forth no effort, why is it the fault of the History Teacher if the student isn’t doing the work. (Especially if other students are doing just fine.)
>>>>

It is not the fault of the teacher.
If none of the kids are learning it may be the fault of the teacher.

But you said above that the teacher **IS** teaching if they do the things you mentioned.>>>>

If a teacher is doing that then they are teaching even if the kids fail to learn. They are trying.
If a teacher sits in a chair doing nothing they are not teaching.
There is a difference between trying and failing and not trying at all.


If some of the kids learn and others don’t, why again is that the teachers fault if they are not putting for the effort?>>>>

If some of the kids learn and others don’t it is likely the kids fault.
If none of the kids learn then it may be the teachers fault.


I agree, typically this will manifest itself by a large number of students all having difficulty in the same class.

However, you do realize that students normally don’t take the same class from two different teachers right? Why would someone take Freshman English with Ms. Smith and then take Freshman English in a different period with Mr. Jones?>>>>

If all the students in the class fail the exam at the end of the year there could be a problem.
A student that fails a class may take the same class with a different teacher.


Then ya’ll have a political problem out there on the left coast.>>>>

We have very strong teachers unions which does make it a political problem.


Then you should move out here. Sorry to hear things are so rough out there. My wifes’ from Pacifica CA, seems like a nice place to visit.>>>>

I'm on a limited income so I can't do that. We do have a lot of good teachers and school out here. It's when you come across a bad teacher and can do nothing that is upsetting.


You also have one of the highest illegal alien populations in the country, and I do believe (looking at the larger urban areas) there is quite the gang problem. Both of which, IMHO, contribute to that drop-out rate.>>>>


That is part of the problem too. But we had the same problem when I was a kid and the teachers were able to teach. We also had class sizes of 35 to 45 kids. We also had a lot of kids from Eastren Europe, one class had 17 different languages.


Please show me where I’ve said there is no such thing as a “bad teacher”. I’ll wait…

… Still Waiting…

…………..Still Waiting…

…………………Come on, just a post number will do?

Oh wait, I never said that..>>>>

But if it's always the parents and kids fault isn't that the same thing as saying the teachers are not at fault.


What I’ve said over and over again is that bad teachers should be removed from the classroom and their employment ended. What I have said is that your original basis of judging teacher performance strictly on test scores in an unreasonable position due to a variety of factors, two of which are (a) not all students are the same, (b) the level of parent involvement and focus on education, and (c) the readiness of incoming students based on the results of prior classes. OK, actually that is three, (C) is a new one but the basis is that if a student is unprepared for the class at hand, then they are not going to do well with new material. For example, a student that has not mastered algebra is not likely to do well in a calculus class. So if the student does not do well, is that the teachers fault or the Guidance Counselors for letting them enroll in a class they were not prepared for?>>>>

How the kids do has to be a factor. You do take into account how good the student is. If none of the "D" students learn very much that is one thing but if none of the "A" students learn very much you need to look at the teacher.
Not all students are the same which must be taken into accout. Not all teachers are the same either.
If we need to take into account how good the student is then we should also take into account how good the teacher is.
There are teachers that can teach kids that no other teacher can teach. There are also teachers that can not teach no matter how hard they try.

Then there is the fact that the things I learned in grade school my kids did not learn till Jr. High and my Nieces and Nephews are not getting till High School if they get them at all.

[historynut]

1. Address the issues with the teacher.>>>>

The teacher would not meet with any of the parents

2. Address the issues with the Principal. Ask the Principal to review the performance of that teachers students against their peers. If the students in the class where you have issues are doing fine and it's only your student that's having problems. Then...3A. If a large number of other students in the class are all having problems. Then...3B.

3A. Take responsibility as the parent and fix things at home.

3B. The Principal should then investigate and find out what is wrong with the teacher.>>>>

The Principal said he knew what was happening and could do nothing about it.
4. If the problem is specific to a certain subject, address the issues with the Curriculum Leader for that area.>>>>

Problem is teacher sit's there and does not try to teach.

5. If the issues are not resolved, then for a group of parents into an action committee and meet as a group with the Principal. When it's one parent they may not take you seriously, when it's a group of parents, their eyes get opened.>>>>

That is what we did after the teacher would not talk to any of the parents. The Principal said he could do nothing.

6. If the Principal will not perform the needed observation and take steps to correct the matter. Then the Parents Group should arrange a meeting with the appropriate Director for that section of instruction (Elem, Mid, or High) and explain: (a) the situtation, and (b) the steps the group has taken to resolve the issue with the building Principal. Believe me, Principals do not like being called into the Directors Office and asked to explain why no action was taken.

7. If the Director will not take action. Then the Parents Group should arrange a meeting with the Division Superintendent and explain: (a) the situation, and (b) the steps the group has taken to resolve the issue with the building Principal. Believe me, Principals like even less to be called into the Superintendent and asked to explain why no action was taken.>>>>

Did that they all said there was nothing they could do and to see the school board.


8. If the Superintendent does not resolve the situation, then start contacting members of the School Board and arrange to speak at a public forum. Make sure the press is invited to attend.

If your concerns are valid, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Complaining on an internet board will not fix the problem, you have to learn and work the system.>>>>

The school board said they could not talk about an ongoing issue and to talk to Principal, Director and Superintendent

The Principal, Director and Superintendent said they could do nothing and to talk to the school board.

The school board said they could not talk about an ongoing issue and to talk to Principal, Director and Superintendent

repeat

Did I mention the school board members get a lot of money from the teachers union


None of the steps listed above require a lawyer.>>>>

Correct. But if you don't have the money to fight the school board and the teachers union your kids are out of luck.

[cowboy]

I received a letter from the school informing the parents that if we want a parent teacher conference this year, that we must schedule them during school hours since the teachers union did not agree to allow teachers to stay after school this year to provide hours for working parents to have a conference.

So, I must lose time at work, which will affect my pay, which will affect my child, just because the union does not think that teachers should have to stay an extra three hours a day twice a year in order for parents to have a face to face talk with the person that is educating their child during the day.


What a joke.
Sorry to rant, but to me, these meetings are part of the job, and to make a parent lose time at work, or lose the chance to speak to the teacher one on one altogether is not very helpful to the child.

Why don't you complain to your board of education? They are the ones that are refusing to pay the teachers for after school conferences. These meetings are part of the job when it is in their contract and they are paid. Teachers get paid for the time that they teach. Plus, I'll bet that if you really need a face to face meeting with one of your childs teachers, they would be willing to accomodate you.

[GailMart]

Ouch! Javsterg, if you are a teacher, you should proofread what you type before hitting send. There are a number of grammar/spelling errors in your post. That reflects poorly on teachers in general.

I am a teacher. I live in a state that does not have unions for teachers. We are required to stay for parent conferences twice a year. I just wish more of the parents would come to those conferences. Teaching is considered a "professional" career and therefore is exempt from laws concerning overtime pay. Yes, we should be able to be paid for the work we do, but we should also understand that this means working different hours for parent conferences.

[Army of 1]

First, I really think it is misguided to judge a post on a forun on grammar/spelling. I do not type well and if there is a problem with mine, it is usually that my mind is working faster than my fingers..It has little to do with intelligence. People are usually trying to get a point across rather than write a "paper" for you to read. Sometimes, I proofread, sometimes I don't.
Second, you are judging teachers unions (and teachers) based on one unions decision. Our staff decided to hold conferences on our own after school in the spring because the distrcit has always only scheduled fall conferences but we felt it was important to do it in the spring also. so we do it, without pay and serve extra hours without complaints.
Now this would be similar to if I posting about you as a parent because I only see 20-30 of my 150 students parents. My first response would be to find out exactly how many parents were attending. One of our inner city grade schools had 1 parent and a couple grade parents attend. if that was the case could you blame them for not going along with the conferences?
don't want to miss work? get a phone number and talk over the course work on the phone. I don't know a teacher you would not take the time to do so.

[CaffeineHat]

I am a teacher and I have to say that I do make myself available "after hours". I wish our district/union would make it so we did not have to do this. Currently I get to work at 7am (not required to be there till 8) just to get more work done. I am required to stay until 3:30pm (often stay later). I can not begin to tell you of all the conferences with parents in which parents simply did not show up after I scheduled them before school and after school hours. I also know of a teacher across the hall who agreed to hold a conference at 6 pm and the parent did not show up at all-not even a phone call! Believe it or not, we as teachers also have families with children who need us on the home front as well. i have had to take off work to go in for conferences and I consider it part of my job as a parent without complaining about it. The number of hours I put in "not on school time" add up to approx. 20-25 a week. This is so that I can get all of my work done in addition to actually teaching during the day. Why? There is a lack of planning time available during the school day made available to our school-and when we get the time, it is taken up by meetings we are required to attend.
This is the most compelling post I've seen in this thread. I wonder if the OP took the time to contact the teacher to see if special arrangments could be made. I am a teacher and I'm available by phone during school hours and may often return calls after school. I am also available by email which I check in the evenings and respond to. For me, the union provides protection from district and school adminstrators who want to ask me to work longer that 40 hours not because my work isn't done, but to accomodate someone else's schedule. I'm very sorry that the OP feels that they are entitled to service beyond the normal workday, but the reality is that a work week is defined as 40 hours by the U.S. department of labor. If I have worked 5 eight hour days, added in time for planning and grading at home, and offered to meet with a parent during my lunch hour, at what point does it become the parent's responsibility? Parents are not customers and to call them that is a RIDICULOUS oversimplifcation. Whatever the case, parent communication is part of my job requirement and I'm happy to do it. But I have a wife who works longer hours than I do and 3 kids. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask parents to take an hour off to see me during the day.